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[Music]
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This is Undaunted Life Man's Podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
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All right, guys. Today, I've got a special guest on the podcast. His name is J.S. Shelton. So
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his mission is to directly confront sexual sin inside the church today. So he is the author of
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a book called Unmuzzled, where he goes into a lot of detail on this. So guys, this is a unique
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interview because we will be talking about basically porn and sexual sin the entire time. And so
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we try to keep things as acceptable as possible for most ears, but there are certain subjects
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that we do get into that if you have a young child, it might be something that's near you. You might
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want to listen to it first before you let them hear it or listen to it, because we do talk about
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masturbation. We do talk about people that have affairs. We talk about specific instances and
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in types of things that that men should do depending upon the situation that they're in.
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But guys, this is a very edifying conversation, but I do want to mention this before I get into
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the interview afterwards, we were kind of talking and he was a little bit concerned
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that our conversation didn't bring the grace element enough into it, because when you talk
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about this subject, there could be a lot of shame around it, right? Especially when you talk about
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it in the terms that he does in his book and in the terms of our conversation. But what I told
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him and what he agreed with is there are a lot of ministries today, a lot of churches today that
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spend almost all their time on the great side of things, almost all their time on the lamb of God
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side of things. They never talk about truth. They never talk about law. They never talk about sin.
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They never talk about the lion of Judah. And so if we don't mention those things as enough for
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your taste, just know it's because we're trying to swing the pendulum back just a little bit.
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We're trying to bring a little bit more balance there because again, you can't fully understand
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who Jesus is if you only understand to him as the lamb of God. And the same is true. If you only
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understand him as the lion of Judah, you have to understand that he's 100% both of them.
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He's 100% grace, 100% truth and all those things at the same time. So I did want to kind of bring
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that out there to you, but I'm not going to keep him from you any longer. So guys, without further
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ado, let's get into it. J.S. Shelton. Welcome down to life of man's podcast.
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Thanks, Kyle. I'm absolutely happy to have you here. We're going to be talking about a super low
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key subject today. We're going to be talking about porn. So all you guys buckle in, it's going to
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be a lot of fun. You obviously heard me talk about in the intro what we're going to be talking
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about today. So it shouldn't be a surprise to you. But you say that your mission is to directly
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confront sexual sin in the church today. So let's just start there. Why is that your mission?
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Absolutely, Kyle. This was my struggle most of my young life into my marriage. And I've come to
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realize most men, most church going men struggle with this and hide it. And there's not enough men
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out there, Kyle, they're willing to stand up and say something true about it, biblical truth about
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it. We've spent too much time putting forth tactics and techniques that side skirt the issue all together.
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And we'll certainly get into a lot of that, but most of the stuff that we're going to be commenting
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on and talking about today is coming from the book that you sent me. So thank you again for
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sending this to me. This is a book that you released this year called unmuzzled.
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So again, we're going to get into some specific sections and quotes from the book here in a second,
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but just generally, you know, from 30,000 foot view, what is the book about and what do you want
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readers to get out of it? Yeah, great question, Kyle. The book's about sexual immorality. It's
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not just focusing on pornography. It's about that we were created as sexual creatures.
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But yet the Bible tells us that we are to be sexually pure. And you'll meet very few men today
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that are living sexually pure lives. And that's what the book's about. The premise of what led me to
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write the book was a certain young man that came into my business. I was helping him on a vehicle deal,
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and he later was in prison for 60 years for possession and child. He was later put in prison
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for possession and distribution of child pornography. And at that point in my life,
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I was conquering this sin. I was conquering my struggle with pornography, not child pornography,
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but just regular pornography. And I said, I got to stand up and start speaking to men about this.
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So in part one of the book, and again, like, if you want to give extra context and all that,
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as we give answers, like, obviously, I'm assuming people haven't read the book yet.
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But guys, it'll be in the show notes so that you can check it out. But in part one of the book,
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it's called Satan's number one attack. So in that section, you make the argument
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that Satan uses porn or I guess more broadly sexual sin as his number one attack on men.
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Now, obviously people would perhaps quibble with that because someone could read the scripture
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and say Satan's going to attack them in another way or in this way in that type of thing. I would
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say that I'm probably sympathetic to that argument because we've seen, you know, tremendous examples
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of these so-called great Christian men that have been taken down by sexual sin. We've seen a lot
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of them even here recently. So give me your, I guess, argument as to why you think that is Satan's
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number one attack on men. Yeah, we were number one, we were created as sexual creatures. I mean,
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our designer, God created us to be sexually attracted to females as men.
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So that's number one. We have to own up to that. You know, you can't preach this at the church,
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but I tell men all the time, we are sexual predators. When we see an attracted woman,
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we desire it. We want it and we need to own up to that and be honest about it. But that's our
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innate design. But if you read the Bible, God calls us to be sexually pure and the only allowance
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for sex, thoughts about sex, actual sex is in a covenant marriage between one man and one woman.
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Outside of that, it's against God and it's against our own flesh.
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Well, you, you said just there that you can't, you know, preach that type of thing, you know,
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in church or something like that. I guess I'd be curious as to why you feel like you couldn't,
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because even in chapter two, you talk about how, I guess, quote unquote, tolerant, we are as
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Christians in modernity about the issue of sexual sin. And that's not just society being
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tolerant because obviously society claims to be tolerant about everything, but that the church
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specifically, people inside the church are tolerant about sexual sin. People having sex
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outside of marriage, people living together, people getting divorces and then getting remarried,
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which is, you know, which is adultery and those types of things. So I guess why wouldn't you talk
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about it there? Of all the places on the planet that you should be able to talk about, it should
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be church, no? Absolutely. And why I agree, Kyle, but the reason you don't hear church pastors
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sounding the alarm on this and specifically by saying we're sexual predators is because they
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know the media would get ahold of it and they'd be persecuted. And the number one organization
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that doesn't want to be persecuted, that the Bible says it will be persecuted is the church.
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They're too afraid to stand up and speak the truth like we're called to on this topic specifically,
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because they don't want to be persecuted. They don't want to turn people off. They don't want
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to lose members. And I've experienced it firsthand. The church I went to, Kyle,
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who I knew all the senior leaders, I was there for 15 years when I wrote the message, they all
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stayed away from me. Did they give you a reason for that? Or did they just kind of like put you
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at a distance? Yeah, the first reason was when I asked if the bookstore would carry the book,
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they said it was because I was not a pastor and they were downsizing their product mix.
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In other words, it's not good for business. I mean, I would say that that's part of the
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reason why on the show, and I told you this off air, that's why I talk about the topics that most
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pastors or so-called pastors at these churches won't talk about because their flocks are walking
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around wondering how do I speak into a culture that supports Black Lives Matter? How do I speak
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into a culture that supports transgenderism and children or the LGBTQ sexual revolution or
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any of these sexual deviancies? And they walk around confused because their pastors won't talk
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about it. And the thing is, is if you talk about it, it becomes a dividing line for people. So
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as a business strategy, as an entrepreneur, I understand that. But as a pastor, you're not given
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that as an option to where it's like, oh, yeah, I guess we're not going to do this because it's
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going to make people feel bad and give them the sads. It's like, that's not exactly how we should
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really operate and do this. But I think the other thing that's important here, and this is a part
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of the thing that you go into in part one in chapter two specifically, well, I'll just read
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you this quote here and we'll get a little bit more context on it. Did you know sexual sin is
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different from all other sins? The Bible tells us every sin that a man does is outside the body,
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but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. And that's 1 Corinthians 6, 18.
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Right there in the Bible, we are plainly told sexual sin is unique. This sin is spiritually and
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physically, this sin spiritually and physically incapacitates us. Now, I will tell you this,
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I've had discussions with people. It'd probably be too heavy handed to call them debates,
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but discussions with men in my life that I am very, very close with, that they just don't take
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certain types of sexual sin that seriously, because it's just like, hey, you know, people are just
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going to do it. Or, you know, Christians, conservative Christians really like to make a big deal out of
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homosexuality and a big deal about this and that and the other thing. And I tried to explain to them
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exactly what you said there, which is you don't get that, like that's not given to you because
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this is a completely different kind of sexual sin. But why is that so confusing, especially for
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people in the church outside of the fact that they clearly that just don't read their Bible?
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Yeah, why is it so confusing? Because every one of us struggle with it. I haven't met a single man
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that doesn't struggle sexually. And we're talking to men mainly here, but women are struggling at
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alarming right as well. And so why is it confusing? Because it's a desire. It's our flesh. We desire
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it. And so when when we look at the Bible and it tells us, hey, you can't do that, sex is reserved
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for a covenant marriage bed alone. But yet we desire it and we feel it and we can't overcome it.
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We start to justify it, Kyle. I mean, I was there. I was in church praising the Lord
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when I just looked at pornography a few nights before when I was in college.
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And so how did I do that? God's grace. You know, every Christian I meet that continues to struggle
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will say about the same thing. Praise the Lord for his grace. And that's such a huge problem.
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Grace does not just overlook our sin. We use God's grace like a morning after pill. I mean,
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if we're going to be honest, that's what most men do. They sin sexually and then they take a morning
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after pill of grace and wash their hands clean and move on. I meet guys that spend the night in
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porn or at church, Sunday morning with their hands raised, praise in the Lord. And you know,
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if you read the Bible, that should baffle every single one of us. At some point, you have to go
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all in with God's word or or just go away from it completely. If you're not going to go in with
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God's word, just go find a different Matt Chandler said this once. Go find a different hobby.
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Yeah, it's it's it shouldn't be treated as a hobby. Obviously, that's something that a lot of
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people really do. And there should be a little bit of dissonance there, because even though we are
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saved, we are still fallen. Like we still sin. There are still things that we act out on,
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but it is interesting how people become so okay with it and so comfortable with it,
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because and there's no sense of like regret or shame or repentance. And that's one thing,
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and I don't really want to go off on too much of a tangent, but I think shame is a tremendous
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motivator. People talk about it when you read these new age parenting books or, you know, psychology
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books or whatever. It's like, Oh, shame is terrible. It's like, no, shame has kept me and the potential
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for future shame has kept me from doing a lot of things that would be detrimental to me,
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my family, like my reputation, everything. So shame is a tremendous motivator. Now, I do want to
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get into something else because you kind of tee this up from the beginning of the conversation.
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This is actually another quote from chapter two of the books. Let me read it to you here.
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Retraining our eyes, software protection, accountability, and that you can be super
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naturally healed from temptation. These techniques only deceive a man into thinking he can become
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fireproof. It's why most of the get free from porn techniques eventually fizzle out. It's how
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men become free one day and fail miserably the next or fall miserably the next. It's why every
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single pastor in the world should or who should be leading this battle isn't. You can't give what
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you don't have. If you never actually conquer, how can you teach others to conquer? This book will
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plainly lay out a biblical lay out the biblical directives that yields freedom from sexual
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immorality. Otherwise, I'd be wasting your time in mind. So here's the thing about that.
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Having, and I've talked about this on show before, having back in the day, struggle with
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pornography, struggle with masturbation is something that I don't really struggle with. Now, I'm still
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have that temptation, but it's not something that I actively struggle with on a day to day basis.
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Retraining my eyes was a big deal of, quote unquote, getting clean. Software protection
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is a good thing and a positive thing and it's still something that I have now, accountability
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partners and all that, which I still have now. Those are all good things. But at the end of the day,
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it's just you. Your wife leaves for the weekend or the kids are out of the house or you're by
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yourself. The thing is, is we know how to get around our filters. We know how to lie to our
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accountability partners. We know how to retrain our eyes in certain circumstances, but then when
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literally no one else is watching, our eyes all of a sudden don't bounce the way that they used to.
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But those are all still really positive things. And so I don't want a guy out there that's
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struggling with this to think that's a really stupid thing. That's not really a good idea.
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And I'll let you hop in here in a second, but I do want to give you this as context.
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So when I was in my early 20s and I was trying to figure out how I could overcome this and do
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all that, I go to this meeting. And it was this meeting where you just kind of show up and they
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put you in this group and there's five or six people in a group. And it's all people that's
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all men that were struggling with sexual sin of some kind. It was everything from a guy in his
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early 20s that would look at porn periodically in masturbate, you know, going through his highlight
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reel to guys that were pharmacists that would go and have random sex with random women,
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can track sexually transmitted diseases, accidentally give them to their wives,
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and then sneak pills into their wives' food to kill whatever virus, like the level of
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depravity, it was astonishing to me. But the group, we would get into these groups and it would be
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like this guy that's like, yeah, you know, I made it two days without looking at porn and jerking
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off. And, you know, I fell yesterday and gosh, you know, but I'm back on the wagon today.
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And then everybody in the group would kind of be like, man, it's okay. Like, you know,
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that's good. You made it two whole days. But let's make it three days next time. And I'm looking
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around like, am I the weirdo? Because this, this seems crazy to me. So I know that's a really, really
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long time for me to talk on an interview, but I just kind of wanted to tee that up.
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So do you not like retraining your eyes? Do you not like software protection? Is accountability
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stupid? Kind of give me a little bit more there. Yeah, Kyle. And what you witnessed in that group,
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that is the church crowd today. That is men's groups all over the world. The same thing is happening.
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And so no, I am not against anything that is put forth to keep a man pure software protection,
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retraining your eyes, getting prayed over, getting the demons of hell cast out of you in a healing
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group. Go through it all. I mean, if you're walking toward Christ, great. That means you're not
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walking toward the enemy. Now, here's where this message differs than what most of the church puts
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out today. We are teaching non-biblical tactics versus biblical directives. And here's what I mean
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by that. We're telling men to get free from this. You need to do these things. You need to get
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accountability. You need to get another brother. You need to get software protection.
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You know what? You need to serve more in the church. You need to make sure you're tithing.
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You need to read your Bible more. You need to get physically healed from this. You need to
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get a healing appointment set up, you know, to have guys pray over you and cast the demons of hell
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right out of you. This is what churches all over the world do when they actually decide to take a
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stance on this issue. None of that is in the Bible. Now, accountability is in the Bible,
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but it's not in relation to confessing sexual sin over and over and over again. Accountability is
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healthy. Software protection is awesome. Kyle, we use software protection in our home because we
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have five kids. I love, I love software protection, but I'll tell you this, Kyle, every man I've met
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that has software protection finds a way around it and continues to struggle year after year after
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year. Every man I've met that has an accountability partner continues to struggle year after year.
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The biggest example is I know a guy that's had the same accountability partner for 30 plus years.
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When we met for lunch, I asked him, when's the last time you had to confess sexual sin to him?
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He said, ah, it's probably been about a week ago. And so guys that have accountability partner
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find and feel this freedom because they confuse their confession of sin for freedom from sin.
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So it's almost like I was just nodding this down as you were saying that it's almost like
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giving a cancer patient a bunch of different bandages. And so it's like, you know, and again,
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I want to be clear and I want to make sure people aren't misunderstanding you either.
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I think you were clear about it, but just to even make it doubly clear, we're not saying
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that accountability partners are bad ideas. We're not saying that using, you know, filtering
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software, things like that in your household, especially with kids, is a bad idea. We're not
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saying, you know, keeping your kid from having full access to the internet via their phone,
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to their place, national laptop. We're not saying those things are bad. We're saying those things
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are symptoms that you can treat, but you're not killing the disease. And the disease is a
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sinful heart that needs to be completely changed. And so I think you made that clear in the book.
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But in chapter four, this is something that I would probably disagree with. I'm not probably,
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I do disagree with you on it. I'll tell you why. So he's been most of chapter four,
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basically spend that entire section of the book,
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encouraging men to confess their sexual sin in all of its details from little to big
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to their wives, or to their, their significant other, you know, could be a girlfriend or fiancee
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or something like that. And so what I've seen in my experience, because I have a lot of guys
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coming to me before saying, Hey, this is what I'm struggling with. This is what I'm doing, a
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multitude of different sins. And some of them specifically have struggled with this particular
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sin. Some of them, it's been affairs and all that. They, they went full, full bore into it.
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And some of these guys went the route of, I'm going to drop all these details on my wife. Not
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only am I going to tell her about the sins that I've committed, I'm going to give her. And when I
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say details, I mean, details, I'm talking about when and where I'm talking about positions. I'm
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talking all of it, right? And what they've done is they have flooded their wife with a bunch of
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information that they can never fully absorb. They're never going to be able to overcome the
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details. They're never going to be able to not think about that particular thing when they see
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that person or see someone that looks like that person or all of that. And partially why I think
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it's very dangerous for men to share all these details with women is they're not wired the same
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way that we are. They don't look at things the same way that we are. They're not sexually attracted
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to things with their eyes as much as a man is, it has to do with their wiring. That's why they're
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a good mate for us. So give me a little bit more on the confession of all these details because I'm
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I'm all about confessing and all those different things. But straight up, they're women that will
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just never get how you could possibly look at another woman and still love her. She'll never get it.
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Right. Well, number one, I'm so glad you brought it up because that is probably the biggest pushback
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I receive from men all over the place that read the message or invite me in to speak to their groups.
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I receive it from pastors more than anybody. Like, hey, we don't encourage our men to confess
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everything. And the reasoning is about the same as what you said. You know, you can destroy your
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wife with details. And so I don't write about expressing all the details in the book. What I say
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is confess all your sin to your wife. And I also talk to men all the time now, hey, it's not something
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you read this book and then just go lay it on her. You know, seek wisdom. Talk to her. Get into
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counseling. Submit yourself to your church. Walk it out. It's a process. But here's the the premise
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of what I'm talking about when I say confess all your sins. Your wife is God's daughter.
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And nowhere in the word does it say that God is okay with you keeping her under some sort of
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deception her entire life. Let me ask it to you, Kyle. You have two boys, right? If you have a
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daughter one day and she grows up and meets a man and he comes to you sometime later and says,
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Hey, you know, I ended up having an affair on on your daughter. Would you tell him as a father?
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You know what? Let's keep this from her. Let's not talk to her about it. And I know you one because
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you said you're all about confessing. And that's where that's where you'd be. You would figure out a
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way to confront the issue with him. You'd walk alongside with him and say, how can we, how can we
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make this right? How can we restore this marriage? I'm not telling guys to go confess the positions,
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the locations, the hair color. However, if a wife asks those questions, you're going to have to
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tell her. You can't say I'm not going to tell you any details. That's just going to cause further
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strife. Most women that we've met with my wife and I were in marriage ministry for years through
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our church. They don't want the details, but there are some women that want details.
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when you subscribe at prolonlife.com/now. I think the reason why if you have a woman that
22:37
would want the details is because they think that's what they want because they think that
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will help them understand. In that position, I think it's maybe even more advantageous
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to protect them from further damage, which to them may infuriate them further or something like that.
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But it's like there are certain people that want things that they think are good, that clearly are
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not for their betterment. I think that's where that argument comes into play. I do want to move
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on to chapter five where you start talking about porn. You talk about porn using the language of
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addiction. So I'll use this quote here. "The church today either isn't aware or isn't willing to admit
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that most of the men sitting in the congregation are muzzled porn addicts." Yes, I said the majority
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and yes, I said addicts. So later in the book, you say, quote, the majority of men today are porn
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addicts, unquote. So this is where we get into the addiction model. And so there's a lot of people
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that would push back against that. I have the guys from S2L Recovery here a while back. They were
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talking about basically physical and chemical dependence. As if you treat it like an addiction
23:38
model, it cuts against what you were saying earlier, which is, hey, this is a way deeper issue
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than can be solved by some sort of a software, some sort of a block or an accountability partner.
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So when we talk about it as an addiction, I think that that's a little bit dangerous because there
23:52
are big differences between physical dependence, habit, and addiction. A lot of people in the
23:59
church have a habit, right? This is a habit. This is just something that they do when they're bored
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and they're alone. It's a habit. It's not an addiction. It's not a compulsion. It's not
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something they absolutely have a physical dependence on. So I think it is somewhat dangerous to look
24:14
at it as an addiction because we live in a culture now where everything is an addiction or everything
24:18
is some sort of a thing that can be treated with a pill or a magic drink or something like that.
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So do you think that the word addict is the right one to use there? Because I'm not sure I agree with
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that. Honestly, I don't care what word we use. Addiction just sort of describes it for most men
24:36
to comprehend. And in a way, it is an addiction from the stance that the Bible says our sin never
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satisfies. And so looking at women lustfully, looking at pornography, sexual sin, if you go talk
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to men that have been in it long enough, you'll find that most have moved on from the general
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pornography they started with to deeper and darker pornography. And there's studies out there that
25:02
show that pornography does the same thing to a brain that a pair of drugs, a mixture of two
25:08
major drugs will do to your brain. And the Bible already told us that, you know, the Bible says
25:14
you just read it. Corinthian 618. It's against our flesh. Your brain is flesh. Sexual immorality is
25:23
wreaking havoc in men physically because it's against our flesh. So in a way, I talk about it
25:29
from that angle as an addiction. You keep going deeper and deeper. You need more and more to satisfy
25:35
yourself. I think at the end of the day, I see your point too. I don't then that's why I say,
25:40
I don't care how we describe it. I use the word addiction because most men cannot get free from it.
25:46
And so they identify with it. You know, it's funny about that is if using the word addiction
25:52
makes you take it seriously, then call it addiction. And so I know people like to mince words and all
25:57
that and like, I'm not against the people that are against the addiction model. That's something
26:00
that until a couple of months ago, I never even thought about how 12 step programs to get people
26:04
out of alcohol, not only is the recidivism rate so incredibly high, but these people are trying to
26:09
basically put pandays on their cancer. And so again, if you want to call it addiction and it'll allow
26:13
you or your congregation to take it seriously, then have at it. Now moving on and I teed this up a
26:18
second ago when I was talking about kids and technology, but in chapter seven, you do talk about
26:23
technology and specifically with kids around. And it is astonishing to me how naive parents can be,
26:29
especially like I live in an affluent area where all these kids from elementary school,
26:35
they're walking around with iPhones. It's their parents old iPhone. That's how they look at it.
26:38
But it's unlocked. They have complete access to the internet. So every manner of violence and
26:43
depravity and sex, they can get at these incredibly young ages. They give them a PlayStation and a
26:49
television in their bedroom with full access to the internet. And again, porn finds kids. You
26:55
have a lot of kids at C porn for the first time. And it found them. They clicked this and went to
26:59
here and then went to here and then all of a sudden titties. And it's like, Oh, no. And their seven
27:03
year old brain can't even fathom what they're watching. And yet that is now giving them a script
27:08
for how they are to look at that part of a woman or look at what to do with that part of a woman.
27:12
So my question to you would be you have a lot of dads listening to this. A lot of dads like me
27:17
that are very, very concerned about their sons being exposed to pornography. But the thing is,
27:21
is you're not going to be able to keep it away from them forever, even with all the filters and
27:25
all the different things you could prevent it. Your kid will be exposed to pornography, not just
27:29
your sons, but also your daughters. Many of them will see it without seeking it out. I mean,
27:33
I john Tyson on here, he wrote the book, the intentional father, he said, how a dad reacts
27:38
to that first time their kids sees porn will make a huge difference on how they act sexually
27:44
moving out, whether they operate out of Shane or operate out of, you know, some sort of a
27:48
grace field love. So what do dads do in your opinion, whenever they first find out or their
27:54
kid confesses them, Hey, I looked at porn. Yeah, kudos to john Tyson, because that is,
27:59
that's something dads need to hear probably more than anything. Is your reaction when you do find
28:04
out or you catch a minute is so pivotal, pivotal of how they're going to respond and how they're
28:12
going to open up to you going forward. I heard this on focus on the family years ago, a grandmother
28:18
had caught her, her grandson looking at pornography. And she said, well, come here, let's talk about
28:25
it. And she said, he said, grandma, I'm, I'm so sorry, I'm so ashamed. And her response was this,
28:33
Hey, don't worry about it. You're sexual. That's just part of who you are. That's how God created
28:41
you. You're supposed to be intrigued by that. And I'll never forget hearing that because I'm, I have
28:47
said, Oh, I so hope that's going to be my response. I need to remember that. Because if we, if we
28:54
automatically reject or condemn our children, when they're caught or they confess something to us,
29:00
they will do what most of us do. They will continue to hide in their own shame. I just
29:06
write a statistic, Kyle, this morning that said 91% of children under the age of 13 are hiding
29:15
sexual immorality from their parents. Yeah, 91%. It's not shocking. And so what do you do as a dad
29:24
or a mom that may be listening when you find out or they confess or you catch a minute,
29:30
what do you do? Your response is so key. The second thing is I just lost my, my thought.
29:38
Well, let me, let me hop in here just a little bit. I think that it's a great opportunity
29:42
to point them to the biblical model of sex. Because that's like, if your kid comes home and says,
29:49
Hey, you know, my, my friend says he's homosexual. What does that mean? Or hey, my, my friend just
29:54
told me they had sex with their boyfriend or girlfriend. Like, you know, I thought they weren't
29:58
supposed to do that. That is a great time to point them back to what you said earlier. Sex is meant
30:02
for one circumstance and one circumstance only. And that is in the covenant of marriage between
30:07
one man and one woman. That's it. There is no other regardless of what woke churches say
30:11
or what culture says. That is the only time it's acceptable. So when that happens,
30:16
yes, it's okay to say, Hey, you're sexual and God gave you the gift of sexuality so that you could
30:22
give that to somebody else someday. But don't just stop there. Because then they're going to think,
30:26
Oh, this is totally normal. So if I see it, this is a good thing. And then they're not going to
30:30
know what to do with their erection. They're not going to know what to do with those feelings.
30:33
But you tell them you ground it in something biblical morality. But is that fair to say?
30:38
Absolutely. So well said to Kyle, you know, here's why most parents, let's focus on dads.
30:45
Here's why most dads don't do anything because they're in it. They've been coping with it their
30:52
whole lives. And so you just can't give what you don't have. So is it if you if you try,
30:57
you're going to over you're going to just destroy it. You're going to turn military and and set up
31:03
all these rules and you're going to condemn it. If you do really believe it's wrong and you're
31:08
struggling, that's your only option. So is it a form of imposter syndrome at that point? Because
31:13
a dad's like, well, God, I still haven't kicked this porn thing. So I can't exactly tell my kid
31:18
not to do it. Because a lot of dads feel like saying do as I say, not as I do is not a good idea,
31:23
which in certain circumstances, it is a good idea to say that do as I say, not as I do,
31:27
even if you're not admitting to your kid, Hey, I still do that thing. But I guess,
31:30
well, talk to me about that a little bit more the imposter syndrome, the dad that feels like
31:34
he can't say anything. What would you say to that dad? Yeah, I mean, what you just said,
31:39
you still got to tell them that it's wrong that we don't look at that you still got to tell them
31:43
the context of why we were we were designed sexually. But at the same time,
31:48
that should kick you in the butt to stand up and be the man God's call you to be to be the leader
31:55
of your your family, to be the spiritual leader of your family. I meet men all the time that say
32:01
they're Christians, but they don't even they don't go to church with their own family.
32:03
What those people are, well, what those people are is they believe in God by
32:09
dent of birth. So like I was born in Oklahoma. So since I was born on this precious red clay,
32:13
apparently I'm a Christian, right? It's that it's a it's a cultural understanding
32:18
of God, but it's no giving over your life to Jesus and making him the center of your existence.
32:24
Now in chapter 13 of the book, the rubber really starts to meet the road a little bit
32:28
because you describe the safe model S A F E the safe model. So that stands for stay away.
32:34
F is flea. E is escape and D is death. And so you can maybe go into that context a little bit more,
32:40
but I do want to bring up a flea story that you brought up there because we know the scripture
32:43
about, you know, fleeing from sexual immorality. Don't hang out near it. Don't get close enough
32:47
to where you get singed and not burned, but to flee from it. And in the book you describe,
32:51
Manny Pacquiao, one of the greatest boxers of all time. He was doing it was either, you know,
32:56
the this standoff or face off or something like that or exactly some sort of a media event for one
33:01
of his big fights. I don't even remember who he was fighting. It's not important, but he looked up
33:04
on stage and as is true with a lot of these boxing things and even UFC things is they have a scantily
33:10
clad girl up there. That's probably going to be one of the ring girls that's being paid to go up
33:14
there and be hot. Manny Pacquiao sees these bikini clad chicks on stage and goes and talks to
33:19
somebody. And then they usher these women off stage before he comes on and does his thing.
33:25
Now some people would look at that as prudish and all these different things, but he was like,
33:28
look, as a Christian, I don't want to be around that. I don't want to be near that. I don't want
33:32
to be photographed with that. And it reminded me of a story. I used to work for Major League Baseball
33:36
in New York City. And there was this, it was kind of a weird job, but we would always have
33:41
celebrities and baseball players come through and we would do interactions with them and take
33:44
pictures and do videos and all that. And we were told that Kate Upton, the model, the swimsuit,
33:49
SI swimsuit cover model, two years in a row, the world's famous model, she was like the hottest
33:54
thing on planet earth at that exact moment. This was 2012. We were told that she was going to be
34:00
coming by. And I was like, Oh no, I don't want to be anywhere near that. Right. And I mean,
34:05
we're working. And when she walked in the door of our studio, there's probably 40 people. And if
34:10
if I'm lying, I'm dying. The place froze. Men and women all together didn't know what to do. They
34:17
all of a sudden didn't remember what tasks they were supposed to be doing because they were so
34:20
struck by her. Right. This is at the height, the peak of her hotness and celebrity and whatever.
34:25
And what I did that day and I made that decision before that ever came is like,
34:28
I'm not going to be anywhere near that. I know what my job is. But if she's over here,
34:34
I'm going to be over there. And if she walks over there, I'm going to be upstairs because it's like,
34:38
I don't want to be accidentally in a picture. I don't want to be anywhere near that temptation.
34:42
But guys aren't wired that way, dude. They will not do that. They'll be like, all right,
34:46
there she is. I'm just going to get a little bit closer. You know, I just want to make sure I'm
34:50
available. Maybe she needs a glass of water or maybe she needs her foot rubbed or maybe she
34:54
needs me to stare at her titties all day until she feels like she's bored with my presence.
34:58
But why do most guys do that? Why are we so dumb? Where we just like sneak close by?
35:03
Why don't we create that distance? Yeah, we're designed that way. You know,
35:07
back to what we said earlier, we are predators. I mean, you don't see a, you don't see a lion,
35:14
see his, his prey and just, you know, walk away from it. If he's hungry and most men are always
35:21
hungry for sex, I don't know what the statistic is, but we think about it every three to five seconds.
35:27
And so most men are hungry. If you see a lion that's hungry for prey, he's not just going to run
35:33
their opposite direction. His flesh tells him, get the prey. And so that's why. But if we're
35:40
going to lead the men, God, bleed the lives God called us to his men, we have to obey the Bible.
35:46
He designed us that way. But then he gives us the instructions on how to obey him and fulfill the
35:53
plan that he has for us. When you have to pre make the decision, right? So before Kate Upton got
35:59
there and before I felt the temptation to look at her and to be a part of all the oogling that was
36:04
going on in the room, I had made the decision. I'm not going to be anywhere near that many
36:08
Pacquiao. At some point in his life made the decision, if I can help it, I'm not going to be in
36:11
pictures with these women. I'm not going to be around these women. Same thing is true. Like people
36:15
get onto, you know, Mike Pence or Billy Graham about not being alone with a woman, not having
36:19
dinner with a woman, even if it's in a professional context, you know, with a bunch of other people
36:23
around never in the reason is because they pre decided I'm not going to put myself in a place
36:27
where I can be tempted. And I think that's very, very important for all of you guys to understand
36:31
if this is your area of struggle, pre decide, don't figure it out in the moment because it's not
36:36
going to go well for you. The last quote from the book that I want to go through and then we'll get
36:40
into a couple more questions before we get you out of here is in chapter 22. It's very interesting
36:44
quotes. I'll read it here. There was no other sin to which God has given us in on off switch.
36:49
Have you ever thought about this? Sex is a sin outside a covenant marriage. Sex is not a sin
36:54
inside a covenant marriage. Can you think of any other activity God says is a sin
36:59
depending on the venue in which it's performed? I got to be honest with you, man, I'd never even
37:04
heard something like that, but it makes perfect sense. And I immediately started racking my brain
37:08
because I want to be a contrarian to be like, well, have you ever thought about this out of the other
37:11
but that is the only one where the context or the venue of the act makes it either glorifying
37:18
to God or sinful. So give me more on that. Yeah, it makes me think of the fireplace analogy. If
37:23
you've ever heard it, you know, a fire in a fireplace is beautiful. It's, it's awesome. But a fire
37:31
outside a fireplace is dangerous. And it's it's it can wreak havoc. And that's sex inside a covenant
37:38
marriage bed is a beautiful thing. God tells us to go all out the word of the word that we're
37:45
supposed to live by tells us to go all out in the covenant marriage bed. Outside of that, it tells
37:50
us it to kill us. It is not allowed. It's against God and it is destroy you. And so that's that's why
37:58
I talk about it and write it that way. It's because God only allows it inside the covenant
38:03
marriage bed outside of it. It is against us, even though we don't see the consequences daily.
38:09
I mean, you can go spend a pastor can go spend the night in porn and get up and preach and pray
38:14
for people the next day. I mean, we've witnessed it in real time right now with Hillsong Church.
38:19
Yeah. I mean, Hillsong, New York pastor Carl Lentz, who knows how many affairs he had,
38:26
but he can get up and preach the word of God every Sunday at his church.
38:29
The lead pastor, Brian Houston, just resigned over something that his father did that he covered up,
38:37
but also over allegations against him, sexual allegations against him. I mean, none of us
38:45
are ever going to be fireproof against this. We're told, I mean, Proverbs Solomon, King Solomon,
38:52
who we all revere the greatest, the most wealthy man of our time, the greatest man in the Bible.
38:59
Solomon was the most disastrous man when it came to sexual immorality. And at the end of his life,
39:06
he tells us through the word how to avoid it. Proverbs 6, 27, can a man take fire and expect
39:15
it not to burn him? Proverbs 5, 8, stay away from her doorstep. It's talking about a sexual
39:21
temptress. You cannot get near it and expect it's not going to affect you. That's how men
39:27
are baffled how they do everything possible. They got software protection. They got accountability.
39:34
They're praying more. They're going to church more. They're serving. They're tithing. And they're
39:39
doing great. And they've conquered for three days or three weeks or three months. And then
39:43
all of a sudden, they just walked right off the cliff and they get baffled by that. But if they
39:50
really study their life, they'll realize that they let themselves be touched by the fiery dart of
39:55
lust, by even just glancing at a woman lustfully in your situation. You made that decision
40:01
because you knew you were flammable. You knew you'd have eyes that would desire to look. You knew
40:06
your design that way. So you got out of there. Most men are not willing to do that to your point
40:12
earlier. But if you're going to conquer sexual immorality, that is the number one requirement.
40:19
You have to be willing to admit that you're flammable. Yeah, I think flammable is a great way
40:24
thinking about it because, you know, that day, whenever she walked in, everybody wasn't just flammable.
40:28
They were covered in gasoline. That's just basically what it is. So you have to be ready.
40:32
But that does bring up a few things that's a good reminder to us is to never put our faith in men.
40:37
Like in these pastors that, you know, don't put your faith in a Carl Lenser, Brian Houston,
40:41
or Bill Hybels or Ravi Zacharias. And like, look at right now, maybe you're a Matt Chandler guy.
40:46
Maybe you're a Vody Bockum guy. Maybe you're a Steven Furtick guy, or a Judah Smith guy,
40:49
or a Tom Askel guy, or just an insert person here. If you worship at the altar of your favorite
40:55
pastor, don't be shocked when you're woefully disappointed at a decision that they've made.
41:00
Because then we get into this, maybe you were saved at a church where Craig Rochelle is the pastor,
41:05
or, you know, pick a random person is the pastor. And then they do some horrific thing, right? Like,
41:09
maybe they murder somebody or they rape somebody or something happens. And I'm not saying Craig Rochelle's
41:13
racist or rapist or racist or any of those negative things. But if they do those things,
41:17
all of a sudden you're having an attack of conscience, like, am I saved now? Like after Ravi Zacharias,
41:21
all the stuff came out about him and his sexual sin. People that were saved at Ravi Zacharias'
41:25
events were all of a sudden thinking they weren't saved anymore. Because they weren't listening to
41:29
Christ. They were listening to Ravi. They weren't following the words of Christ. They were following
41:32
the words of Ravi. And that's not to say we can't learn from these men. Obviously, I post videos,
41:36
I repost videos of a lot of these pastors all the time because they're great, you know, they're
41:40
solid and they're great theological teachers. But they're not the point. But the thing about it is,
41:45
is it should be a reminder to all of us that sex is a gift. That's the on-off button that you talked
41:49
about. Sex is a gift to us in humanity, but we can use it improperly. I was just listening to
41:54
a sermon from Mark Driscoll recently. He talked about the fire. He talked about creating a fire
41:58
in the fireplace is a good thing. But my boys went to create fire in the floors of their rooms.
42:03
And like, that's not a good thing. That's going to create a whole bunch of issues.
42:07
And so we just got through talking about a bunch of pastors. And so we should probably get into this.
42:11
Several times in the book, you refer to men that seem disengaged or, you know, passive while at
42:16
church, which is apparent to everybody with a functioning brain that that happens, right?
42:20
You go into a church and that's the type of thing that you're going to be saying.
42:23
So you pretty much hang that completely around the neck of sexual sin. Like, I'm trying to summarize
42:30
your viewpoint. So feel free to correct the record if I frame it incorrectly. But you hang that
42:34
around the neck of sexual sin. But I'm not so sure because in the churches that I've been in,
42:39
in the churches that I've consulted with and that I've visited and things like that,
42:43
a big thing that a lot of churches have is that their church isn't man friendly.
42:46
It's telling them in by the things that they do, by the music that they sing,
42:51
by the types of sermon content, by the volunteer opportunities. Hey, church is not for you.
42:56
We didn't have you in mind when we put all this together here. And so we're just going to push
43:01
you off a little bit that way. I'm sure sexual sin has an impact on that, but I'm not, I'm not
43:06
willing to say that that's the main reason. So tell me if I'm wrong. Yeah. Well, I think you're wrong.
43:12
And I can think that because I wrote the book and that's my message. And that's my experience.
43:18
I may be wrong. I haven't been to every church in the world, but I will say this, Kyle,
43:23
in the last 20 years of me talking to men openly, talking to pastors openly about this
43:30
topic, it is the number one attack in the church. And every man that I've personally met,
43:37
that is a passive Christian, they have sexual immorality in their life. I'll never forget the
43:44
first muzzle that I saw on a man. And this was a great homeschooled kid, great Christian guy,
43:51
just salt of the earth. It took him a year to come back to me and confess that he struggles
43:57
with pornography all the time. And so I believe sexual immorality is a number one attack on men
44:04
in the church. Why? It was the number one attack on men in the Bible. I mean, you read the Bible,
44:10
Genesis to Revelation, and you pick out all the main men characters, you'll find that most of them
44:16
had disastrous sexual failures. I mean, we all know King David and Bathsheba, but we don't really
44:23
think of his son, Solomon, King Solomon, was probably the most disastrous failure in the Bible when it
44:30
came to sexual immorality. And so that's why I talk about it the way I do, passivity on a, I mean,
44:38
think about it, Kyle, if you're a, if you know you're a son of the king and he has called and
44:44
equipped you to do a mission on this earth and you're sitting in church passive and afraid,
44:49
what is that? You know, I talk about it as, as Matthew 1229 states, how can you enter a strong man,
44:57
a strong man's home, take everything he has, unless he first binds you as the strong man.
45:04
And so I use that as an illustration that that's what's happening in men's, in the homes of families
45:12
all over the world today. The men are muzzled down and can't do anything about it. And the enemy's
45:18
coming in and wreaking havoc. And he's doing it in churches. Most pastors are muzzled men when
45:24
it comes to sexual immorality. I would say all of that I agree with. I would just extend it out
45:31
even a step further so as to not absolve any of these churches or any of these ministries
45:35
of their issues with men, because it's like part of the thing is, you know, like I say all the time
45:40
on the show, they do a once a year men's event and they call it men's ministry and they're shocked
45:45
when the men stay muzzled or when the men so it's they're focusing on programming and not discipleship.
45:50
So I'm sure that you would cosign that and saying that discipleship is obviously a positive thing.
45:54
So I think there's some synergy there. A couple more questions in this one. Obviously for people,
45:58
it's like this may seem a little curt, but this is right speaking specifically to what we're
46:02
what we're talking about here. We need to talk about masturbation. And so obviously, if you're
46:07
a kid and everyone around you is doing that and making jokes about it and all those types of things,
46:13
and they're needing that that sexual release because there is a physiological need for that
46:19
stuff to get out of your body, right? I'm trying to keep it as, you know, as nice as possible for
46:24
those with little ears that are listening to this. But I do know a lot of single men. I know guys
46:28
that are in their late thirties that are single that want to be married that have not found the
46:33
woman that they are to be married to and all those different things. And they're like, what do I do?
46:37
Do I literally just sit around and wait like for for a wet dream or any of those types of things to
46:42
be tempted in my dream world or something like that? What do I do? And so I've given some suggestions
46:48
to them as to what I would say. You don't cover it in the book. So I'm giving you a chance to go
46:52
over it now. A kid or a young man is like, look, I'm single. I'm not married. I need this release.
46:58
What do I do? Yeah, the very first thing I would say is I do not believe because I never found it in
47:04
the Bible. This sex is a physical need. Now I'd been there. And I've been to the point where I needed
47:13
it. My flesh needed it. And it's because I allowed myself to be tempted. Well, let me let me back up
47:17
just a little bit. Let me hide in there. There is a physiological need for semen to be extracted
47:22
from the body. Like there's there's plenty of that produced it. If your body's produced semen,
47:28
it has to be extracted agree 100%. How does your body produce semen?
47:33
I'm not a doctor. So I pulled a kintaji brown Jackson on you. I'm not a biologist. So I don't
47:37
exactly know. So help me out. Tell me. Yeah. Well, we don't really know God designed sex. He designed
47:46
it. And science hasn't figured it out. They have answers for it. But here's what he comes down to.
47:51
When you it's the same reason you get an erection. How do you get an erection? What in your brain
47:57
tells your penis to erect? What is it? It's chemical. We've we've we've talked about it in science,
48:05
you know, the brain sigs, the signal releases and chemical there's endorphins involved, whatever.
48:10
We're designed that way. Lost, lost, lost is what starts at all. So if you'd lost after a woman,
48:21
your body says this, prepare for sex. And if your body says that, semen is produced.
48:29
And so is it possible that if you practice not lusting that your body doesn't produce semen?
48:36
I'm living proof of it. You're probably living proof of it. You know, once you come to a point
48:42
where you start turning off that switch and sex is not an option, unless you're entering your
48:46
covenant marriage bed, thoughts about it, visions of it, you stay away from it all. There's no need
48:53
to masturbate. There's no wet dreams that come along. Now, I'm not saying men, all men are going
48:59
to be the same on this. Most men that go through this detox and start staying away, we're supposed
49:04
to. They're just hit with a flood of memories and stuff that come and they end up having wet dreams.
49:10
You're going to go through that. Most men do. But listen, what do you say to a guy when you tell them
49:18
you can't masturbate sex? That's sex. I've never read anything in the word that says
49:23
self sex is permissible. That's what masturbation is. Oh, I'm thinking about my wife.
49:28
Nowhere in the Bible does it say self sex is permissible. And so is it possible
49:36
that you can live a sexually pure life and the only place you can have sex is in a covenant
49:40
marriage bed with your wife. It's 100% possible because it's in the word. Now, if you're a non-Christian
49:46
listening, do whatever you want. Unless you go in all in with the word and sell out and actually
49:53
become a Christ follower, none of this is going to apply to you anyways. You can justify your way
49:58
out of it completely. But if you're a young man, an unmarried man that's listening and you struggle
50:04
with masturbation, but you want to be pure, go all in and be vigilant to what God's calling you.
50:10
And then tell me if it works. So not to quibble about things that aren't ultimate to the point.
50:16
Your body physiologically biologically produces semen every day. It doesn't produce semen when
50:21
you're when you're attracted to a woman or something like that. It's something that is just
50:24
constantly happening for a boy that is able to do that. That has reached a certain age.
50:30
That's not the main point. The main point is what you were talking about, which is, is it
50:35
permissible or not? Because there are a lot of physical things that you feel a desire to do
50:39
that are not permissible, that are not moral. So I know that there are people that have a chemical
50:44
attraction to alcohol. Let's say alcohol was given to us as a gift to consume Jesus's first miracle
50:50
was turning water into wine so that a Jewish family would not be embarrassed and so that a party could
50:55
continue, right? But if taken to its extreme, it's a bad thing. It's not given to you so that you
51:00
could get drunk and make a bunch of bad decisions. The same is true about sex. It's given to us as
51:04
a gift. And again, I'm absolutely with you. I do not see a single mental theological gymnastics
51:11
move that I can make to tell a young man, dude, it's totally okay to masturbate. Hey, I'd rather
51:17
you masturbate than to go have sex with a hook or ha ha, you know, like some sort of idiot would
51:21
say. So I think that that's a very, very important distinction to make. Last question the day that
51:25
I want to kind of get to you, and this is kind of getting out of the world of theology and more so
51:29
getting into the world of law, I guess you could say, but there are all these fights going on in
51:34
culture. Obviously, you know, there's there's fight against abortion and the laws therein and all that
51:39
stuff that goes there and the fight against, you know, whatever thing that's your thing, maybe a
51:43
taxation, maybe it's immigration, who freaking cares, but making porn illegal. I'm wondering if that is
51:50
a fight that's worth taking on. And I'm saying that it is, but we as Christians and even as
51:57
conservatives, abortion seems to be that main fighting ground. And I'm not sure when this will
52:00
be coming out. So maybe we'll have the official Roe v. Wade decision by then or whatever that
52:04
situation may be. But then in a lot of ways, the fight over the unborn and the sanctity of their
52:09
lives is just beginning, because then the fights go back to the States and the state legislatures
52:14
and we kind of go from there. But after we kind of get that that fight solidified, should that next
52:19
fight be making pornography straight up illegal? Because the libertarian in me is like, well, you know,
52:24
I can't tell everybody what to do. This isn't, you know, a theocracy or something like that.
52:30
But do you think that's a good thing that we should try for? Because we're not going to get rid
52:33
of it entirely. But if it's illegal, we could reduce the amount of people that are taken into it,
52:37
right? Yeah. Well, Cal, that's such a, that's such a hard question to just give an answer to.
52:43
Number one, absolutely. It's worth fighting for. Is it, I'm more thinking, is it possible? You know,
52:49
it's, I think about going ownership. I mean, the left is just for years, decades, I've been trying
52:56
to destroy guns. What, what has that done? You know, nothing. You know, it's just caused more people
53:02
to want to own guns. There was a study done in the 70s in Denmark. And I write about this in the
53:08
message where they thought that by legalizing porn, it would reduce rapes and crimes in society.
53:16
Because porn was illegal in the 70s and Denmark. What did it do? When they, when they legalized it,
53:23
rapes went up. Same thing with drugs. When people are like, yeah, just legalize all drugs. It's like,
53:28
you morons, like you legalize weed in a state that it wasn't legal before it. You think the,
53:34
the black market is just going to disappear. No, they're going to undercut the state market that
53:37
has to pay taxes. Like this is, this is direct line. But go ahead. But if enough of us stood up
53:42
and tens of thousands, it's not millions stood up to make porn illegal. That'd be a glorious day.
53:50
Do I think it's possible on this earth? Probably not. And I mainly say that from a biblical perspective,
53:57
that the Bible tells us the world is just sinking further and further away from him.
54:03
And at one day he's going to end it all. And so I don't know if, if that's even a possibility
54:09
or back to your original question, is it worth fighting for that? I think it's more worth fighting
54:14
to do what God calls us to do and stay away from it. Yeah, I think the difficulty of the fight is
54:20
not a reason whether or not to fight. And that's certainly not what you said. But obviously it's
54:24
difficult, if not impossible. So is fighting against sex trafficking. So is fighting against
54:28
drug trafficking. So is fighting against abortion. All of those things are complicated,
54:32
right? But that doesn't mean they're not worth the fight. Because if there's a way that we can
54:37
stop five year old boys from being introduced to porn and seven year old girls from being
54:42
introduced to porn, like think about how silly it would be to say, yeah, we don't need to fight
54:45
against, you know, chat rooms where, you know, 40 year old men are prowling for 11 year old girls,
54:50
you would seem like you were in like a complete evil moron at that point. And so it's like,
54:54
I think it's worth the fight. How we go about doing that is kind of a hard thing. It's really hard
54:59
to say it is a really, really big question. But it's something that I think we should continue to
55:03
talk about. But man, I really appreciate all the time that you spend with us today. Thank you again
55:07
for sending me this book and letting me kind of dig through it and ask you the questions.
55:09
But that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
55:12
I'll say something. I don't know if you want to put it in here, put it, paste it back in.
55:18
But you just said something. How can we keep a five year old boy or girl looking at it?
55:22
Kyle, you know what they're finding now? They're finding that depending on what type of pornography
55:28
a child is first exposed to will be what he or she gravitates toward. So if a child is exposed to
55:35
gay pornography first, they're finding that that child is saying that they may be gay or
55:42
identifying as gay at a young age. And so there is such a push in our society right now for
55:49
gay pornography for that reason. Is an astonishing thing to think about. But I also think about
55:56
scripting. And I think that was Dr. John Fobert that first kind of brought that to me is if a
56:01
young boy or young girl is exposed to a certain type of pornography, that becomes their script
56:06
for things in the future. So that's why you have all reports. It's horrific of these young girls
56:11
that have been exposed to hardcore pornography or young men that have been exposed to hardcore
56:15
pornography. And they have their first, you know, sexual encounter with a real person at the age
56:20
of 12, 13, 14. And they do these really rough sex acts on these people that have not had sex
56:25
before. And you have girls that need to go to the emergency room, because they've been essentially
56:30
anally raped or forcibly vaginally raped or any of these types of things. Because the girl's
56:35
thinking, if I don't look like I'm in pain, I'm probably not enjoying it because of the porn
56:39
that I threw. And the boys think if the girl doesn't seem like she's in pain or if she's not,
56:43
you know, moaning like a circus animal, that, you know, this, this isn't that I'm not doing it,
56:47
right? And so they're getting their script from hardcore pornography and trying to help that person
56:53
and, you know, revitalize a true biblical sexuality. And that person's going to be almost impossible
56:58
to do. Absolutely devastating. Well, that's a terrible way to end the podcast. But I guess we
57:03
got into somewhere. But man, I again, I really appreciate you going into all this detail. It
57:07
probably warrants another conversation down the road as more stuff comes out. But Jaya Shelton,
57:11
thank you for coming on Daunton life, a man's podcast. Awesome. Thanks, Kyle.
57:15
There you go, guys. Hope you enjoyed my interview with Jaya Shelton. But before we let you go,
57:19
we are going to do a quick resilience boost at a not to life. Our mission is equipping men to push
57:23
back darkness with content that for just spiritual, mental and physical resilience. So the link I've
57:27
got for you today is a link to his book on muzzled escaping sexual sin Satan's grip on men. So you
57:32
can check that out there. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to the show. We do appreciate
57:35
it. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five star
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of you. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info
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at and Daunton dot life. That's INFO at and Daunton dot life. You can follow us on Instagram and like
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more content like this coming your way. Just go to www dot undaunted dot life. And as always,
57:56
we want to thank the band August Burns read for allowing us to use their music for our content.
58:00
The music on this podcast is our song cutting the ties, which is off their 10th anniversary
58:04
re recording of their album leveler. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
58:10
Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
58:16
Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
58:46
[Music]