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"This is Undaunted Life" a man's podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Let's get into it.
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All right, guys.
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They've got a special return guest to the podcast.
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Her name is Holly McKay.
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So she's an author, journalist, war correspondent, and humanitarian, and she's also the best-selling
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author of "Only Cry for the Living, Memos from Inside the Ice's Battlefield."
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That was our 2021 Book of the Year for here at Undaunted Life, and this is our fourth appearance
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on our podcast here.
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So she's been on episodes 188, 222, and 270, and she's also got a new book out now called
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Afghanistan, the end of the US footprint and the rise of the Taliban rule.
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And so that book is not as much a, and there I was, type of a book.
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This is a book that she wrote, but then it's mainly meant to serve as kind of a coffee-table
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book.
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So her photographer that was with her over in Afghanistan before the fall, during the
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fall, and after the fall, just took tons and tons of pictures and they put it together
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into this absolutely gorgeous book.
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You guys absolutely have to check it out.
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But in this particular interview, we don't get as much into the fall.
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I mean, I highly, highly recommend that you guys listen to episodes 222 and 270.
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If you haven't been listening to our show for very long, go back to those episodes because
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in episode 222 that I was talking to her during the fall of Afghanistan, as in she's on the
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second floor of this like apartment complex or hotel or something like that.
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And the Taliban is driving through the street, shooting their guns in the air, and she held
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it together.
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But I mean, it was kind of touch and go there for a little bit, whether or not she would
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actually make it out, out of there, get out of there safely.
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And then episode 270, we talk a whole lot more about what was happening there at that
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time.
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But in this particular interview, we talk about kind of, you know, where the whole idea
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for a book like this comes from, kind of what the current status is of the Afghan people
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and kind of like why people aren't really focusing on it anymore.
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But also she doubles down on just the corruption that she knows of and that she saw from the
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Afghan government and how they were using US taxpayer dollars, basically to make themselves
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rich but not actually help the people of Afghanistan or help them fight against the Taliban.
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And then we get into kind of where she's going from here and what she's going to end up focusing
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on in the future.
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Again, we'll keep having her back on this podcast because she keeps going to all these
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places in the world, these pockets of absolute human suffering and depravity to make sure
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to remind us that those things are happening out there.
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But also to tell the people, tell the stories of the people that couldn't tell these stories
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for themselves.
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So we always enjoy having her on.
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So we're not going to keep her from you any longer.
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So without further ado, let's get into it.
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Holly McKay, welcome back to Dawn to Life of Man's podcast.
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Hi.
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Thanks for having me.
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I think this might be your fourth appearance is your fourth, maybe fifth appearance on
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the show.
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Like that's got to be some sort of a record.
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I mean, I don't know.
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Do we need to just do the Holly and Kyle show from here on out or can we just still stick
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to maybe once or twice a year?
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I'm sure you've got way more cool people today to be than me.
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We've got other cool people.
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We certainly have other cool people.
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But I don't want to take take for granted that everyone in my audience is familiar with
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your work.
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Even since last time you've been on here, we've expanded quite a bit.
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So for those in my audience that are not familiar with you and your work, how about you give
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us the 30,000 foot view of who you are and what you do?
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So I am a, I guess, world and war reporter, really.
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I spend a lot of time in different conflict zones, looking at very different issues when
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it comes to war, both kind of on the military side, but my real passion is the really the
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human side and taking those human stories and trying to make sense of conflicts and foreign
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policy issues and things that affect us even here in the US and really sort of take those
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micro stories and then paint that macro picture and hopefully bring sort of some unique perspectives
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to the table.
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And so I wasn't planning on asking this and I don't know that I've asked any of the other
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times that we've talked.
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But obviously you have been around a great deal of depravity, you've seen a lot of loss
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and you've seen a lot of pain and we'll certainly get more into that when we talk about your
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new book.
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But do you almost feel like you have to actively disengage from the emotion and the depravity
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around you so that you can do your job?
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Because I would say for most of the people I know, including me, I think I might find
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it difficult to compartmentalize my sadness or my anger or my outrage out out of what
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I'm seeing.
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Does that make sense?
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Absolutely.
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I think you have to have a degree of compartmentalization, but I also do think it's very important
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to always do things really primarily with the lens of compassion.
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And I think traditionally we look at war reporters and the idea of it was that they had to be
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sort of very removed and very sort of straight down the line.
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And I think that's not really what people look for anymore.
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I think when people are seeing news reports or reading a story, they want that compassion,
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they want that emotion.
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And so I think a lot of the sort of conjunctions that we had in the past with needing to have
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this wall, I think a lot of those have really been broken down and I think the best stories
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that you can do is when you do show emotion and you are part of that process and you are
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human at the end of the day.
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And I certainly don't adhere to those kind of old school conventions.
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I think it's important to have human reactions to situations that we should be having human
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reactions to, but it does, you know, there is a delicate balance that you have to have
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with it.
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You can't be sort of so fixated in the process that you can't effectively do the work a little
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bit like a trauma surgeon or somebody like that and I'm certainly not comparing myself
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to somebody like that.
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But you know, you have to have that compassion to want to save your client or to want to
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do the best work for them, but you have to step back a little bit so that you can sort
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of function in order to be able to do that.
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When you can see all sides of that whenever, if you follow you on social media or if you've
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read Only Cry for the Living, that was the book that we talked about.
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That was our 2021 book of the year that you are carrying the narrative of what you're
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reporting on, but then you are also expressing that you do feel emotions at these different
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points because it's kind of hard to witness the things that you've witnessed and then
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just feel absolutely nothing that would make you a sociopath, which would make you a really
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awkward person to hang out with.
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But it's just kind of one of those deals like you have to have all of that in order to really
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carry your audience into that.
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But I do want to talk about a new book that you have that is out now guys as of the recording
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of this podcast.
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It is in the show notes.
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It's called Afghanistan, the end of the US footprint and the rise of the Taliban rule.
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And so the thing that's interesting about this book, Holly, is it's not just a and there
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I was book, right?
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You write the words for the book, but it's almost like the main purpose of it is that
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it's a coffee table book, you know, a coffee table, and so the pictures are from your
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photographer that was over there with you named Jake Simkin.
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So I guess where did the idea come from to do this book because to my knowledge, there's
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not a coffee table style book with these amazing pictures.
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I just looked at the book here recently, just these amazingly gorgeous pictures.
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I don't know that there is one that kind of details just before the Taliban took over
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Afghanistan and then what was going on there after.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So my objective, and this was a Jake and I sort of objective before we moved back to
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Afghanistan and both of us had spent a significant period of time there previously.
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This was during COVID time.
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So we're looking at the beginning of 2021 and we both decided that that's where we wanted
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to sort of go and spend the good chunk of the rest of that year, I was no longer working
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sort of as a full-time journalist and Jake was always freelance and he was based in Australia.
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So we made the decision that we wanted to do a coffee table book and I always thought
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that was a really nice idea that would be something different from just sort of a straight
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book like I had already, the only craft and living just come out.
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It's a beautiful photographer who I think never really has had his work showcased the
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way that it should be and so we, yeah, we sort of went, that was the initial intention
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of even going back there and we sort of thought we'd be there documenting the US withdrawal
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and then the Afghan government, you know, the first few months of them sort of trying
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to stand on their own so to speak and of course, you know, a couple of weeks into being there
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is when the fall sort of suddenly happened and we sort of found ourselves the story as opposed
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to being good documenting the story so it was a very strange time but I think for both
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of us there was no, I mean, everybody was sort of leaving and getting on the planes
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and things, I think for both of us there was no hesitation that we were going to stay which
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I think I was the only kind of American journalist that actually did stay for the several months
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after that but to me, you know, that was that it felt like very much a duty not only to
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the book but to telling the truth of what was kind of happening rather than trying to speculate
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on social media or even listen to, I mean, of course, Afghan accounts are very important
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but at the time there were a lot of information that wasn't particularly accurate and so I
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think that was just very important and then of course, if you see in the book, you sort
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of do see this sort of dramatic transformation, you sort of see that week before the fall
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and then you see the fall and then you see sort of these strange few months after where
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you suddenly the Taliban is your neighbor and, you know, all sorts of crazy things are happening
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and also it was the first time that you were able to really travel and before that it was
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far too dangerous, you couldn't go on roads, you couldn't really travel, there was a few
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different provinces you could fly to but it was fairly restricted and suddenly the whole
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sort of country was opened up to us and we could travel by road literally to every way
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so you really get a glimpse of a pretty much, you know, almost every province of Afghanistan
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and this book and parts of it that I'm sure a lot of people could never have imagined
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belong to Afghanistan because it is an incredibly beautiful place and each province is so different
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and I think that's what's so remarkable about it is you just sort of get this incredible
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insight into a place that previously throughout the 20 years that the US was there was just
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very off limits.
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So let's talk about some of the shots that actually were in the book, so was it something
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like you and Jake were setting out to get particular shots, were you just taking shots
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as they came to you, were there shots that you really, really wanted that you weren't
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able to get, kind of take me through that?
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I mean I think it was really a matter of I was working on sort of stories and things
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at the same time and writing and Jake and I would go out, we'd be with our fix in the
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weed and our driver and it was just of a constant, I mean Jake was constantly taking photos
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and I was working on stories and was sort of coming together for that and then when it
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sort of came time when I came back and I started to put the book together that was sort of
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my role as I had to go through just thousands of photographs that he took and start to craft
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a narrative of my head of what I could write about and what photos I thought would have
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the best stories or what photos I thought would be most interesting to the reader and
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so that was sort of a big process of calling in itself and we sort of divide the book up
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into four sections so I had to really think about how I could do what pictures I could
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give the sort of the most justice to and so that was sort of, that was the process with
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that which was an interesting one because there was literally just hundreds and hundreds
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of incredible photographs that I would have loved to have been part of the book but we
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do have limitations so I think there is around 140 pictures in there so it's sort of a good
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cross-section.
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Calling is an art that most people wouldn't assume that it is an art but I've been married
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to a photographer for about 15 years and when you have all these photos and you need to
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call it down to the ones that tell the story of a wedding or of an event or of a time period
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like it's kind of tough to get it down to that and make sure that you're also expressing
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yourself in the narrative that you're wanting but you mentioned this just a second to go
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Holly but in the book you describe I guess the fear and the hope that the Afghan people
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were feeling before the Taliban took back complete control of the country and so fear
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that they would actually take back control in the hope that the Americans and the allies
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would basically keep that from happening.
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Can you tell us a little bit more about that because I don't think that people really think
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about much, they think about the US withdrawing, they think about the Taliban but then sometimes
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they forget about what the Afghans themselves were feeling on the ground before it officially
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changed hands.
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Yeah I mean I think it was just this very strange time where there was, you could sort
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of sense that it was happening but there was still a huge degree of collective denial
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and you really just didn't know which way to think, I mean on one hand you would have
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people officials that were telling me on this is not going to happen, this absolutely won't
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happen, right up until I remember being in Mizal when it fell it was a Saturday afternoon
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and in two hours before the fall I still had people telling me no, no, no, it'll be fine,
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I mean these are intelligence officials in Afghanistan so it sort of shows you that disconnect
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and then you had the people that were out on the street, the guy that works at the Gabab
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store and he had a better sense of what was going on then I think that a lot of these
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officials down in Kabul did, so it sort of just is a bit of a microcosm of what a mass
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Afghanistan actually was toward the end and how little I think communication and understanding
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that there was between the US, between Afghans themselves and just sort of this I think for
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a lot of people in Afghanistan's very young country a lot of them had really just grown
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up with American presence there, they didn't know any difference so they were just very
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much up until that last moment believing that the US would not let that happen but of course
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it did and that was sort of inevitable, I think the way that the withdrawal happened
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was obviously terrible but at the same time it's you know I've had quite a bit of time
14:07
to reflect and I've been back to Afghanistan since then I was back a few months ago, you
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know and it's hard and I sometimes think maybe I'm callous in saying this but Afghan, the
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Afghans didn't fight the way that they should have and we can blame the US all day and we
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can say but but but but but but when you have that sort of systemic corruption I mean the
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Afghan Afghans had every weapon, every opportunity to fight and they didn't at the end of the
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day, I remember days before the fall just seeing these soldiers just leaving their bases and
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I said where are you going and they said are we going home and that as we know that you
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know the US cannot do the fighting for you so it's difficult to say and I always feel
14:52
terrible sort of saying that but at the end of the day I think it's easy to blame America
14:58
and easy to blame these places but the end of the day the Afghans do have to take some
15:02
level of responsibility for their country, it is their country and acknowledge the fact
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that when we look at those evacuation planes, why was there a bunch of military-aged men
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on those planes?
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I didn't see women, I didn't see children, I saw a bunch of men in their 20s and 30s
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and you can't beat a force like Taliban if you're running away so I think that is an
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unfortunate reality that you know that it's taken me, I've had to grapple with too because
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my heart is very much with the Afghans but we also have to look at these things fairly
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pragmatically and look at when if we are going to go into countries in a long-term basis
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you know what infrastructure is available and the willingness to fight for themselves
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and I think beyond that I also recognize that it was hard for Afghans to fight for government
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that really did not have their back and this was an incredibly corrupt government, one of
16:02
the most corrupt governments I've ever encountered in any country that I've ever worked in and
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when that corrupt government is just dealing money that is should be going to the Afghan
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people it really should come as no surprise that a country falls apart.
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So Holly I appreciate you talking about that way because again you use the word callous
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but it's not as that it's callous because you're coming at it from a very informed perspective
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it's not like you're just reading left-wing or right-wing news and then making your decisions
16:29
and then spewing it out there on Instagram you obviously have on-the-ground experience
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but in the new book Afghanistan you talk about how much money the US taxpayer paid in order
16:38
to fund the war and also how easily all that was wiped out whenever whenever we pulled
16:43
out but also you hit on as what you just alluded to these back room deals that went down because
16:49
of the Afghan government deciding to acquiesce to the Taliban demands well before the complete
16:55
withdrawal of the US troops because again I think we get this timeline to where it's
16:58
like okay the Taliban decide you know now's our time let's go ahead and march on down
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and you know take over all these cities but for I don't know would it be weeks or months
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leading up to that time period it was the actual government of Afghanistan that was acquiescing
17:12
to what was going on with the Taliban can you tell us a little bit more about that?
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Yeah I mean the government from day one you know stealing money money was never going
17:20
to where it was supposed to be and and ultimately Afghan soldiers paid the price for that more
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than a hundred soldiers were dying a day in the heat of this battle I mean it's sick
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and that was a lot of the time because people were stealing money that they were never getting
17:32
this sort of equipment they needed they were never getting the clothing they needed they
17:35
were being sent up into snow mountains without proper gear just little stupid things like
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that that were costing lives and I think the US really chose to turn a blind eye to it for
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the longest time it was not that the US wasn't aware of the corruption but there was absolutely
17:50
zero accountability to it it was just sort of considered systemic as opposed to being
17:54
really I think what was the root cause I mean it wasn't that the Afghans were not capable
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of fighting you have a country of that was more than capable of fighting back however
18:04
you know 50,000 Taliban they had air power they had everything you know the Taliban didn't
18:09
have but that they they didn't I think have that zest for fighting and that really came
18:15
down to I think when you've got to believe in what you're fighting for and if you don't
18:19
believe in your government and your country then it is very hard to find that motivation
18:24
at the end of the day you are going to run away to protect yourself and your family as
18:29
opposed to giving yourself to a higher cause which is what it takes to to win a war and
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I think the government just could have continued to steal money over the years and to absolutely
18:40
disgusting point that people were going to just do what was right for themselves and
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so if the sort of the Taliban is offering you an amnesty to get out with your family so
18:51
that you don't get killed you're going to leave your men to basically be slaughtered
18:56
and you're going to run away before anyone really realizes what was happening and you
19:00
see that time and time and again in in every province that happening right down to the
19:04
president getting on a helicopter and leaving without even telling the US that he was doing
19:10
that and essentially just handing over the entire country's the Taliban before there
19:16
was any real sort of ability to put any other sort of checks or balances in place or to
19:21
get the people out that needed to get out and these are things that the administration
19:25
really should have thought about before it kind of decided to have this very strange
19:33
sort of date of September 11 of withdrawing and I think we saw that in Afghanistan in
19:39
2011 when you set a specific date the enemy just sort of says okay fine I can wait it
19:44
out another few months and unfortunately we saw that same mistake repeated in Afghanistan
19:50
where it was like we're going to be out by September 11 and of course you know the Taliban
19:56
that was that was music to their ears they had to they knew exactly how much time they
20:01
needed to negotiate those deals and to sort of swoop right in when the timing was right
20:07
so again it was I don't I don't blame the US for wanting to get out of Afghanistan
20:13
I think that when we look at the history of war and occupation I don't know that being
20:18
the long term has done any good but there obviously needed to be a lot more in place
20:23
for that to happen and I think the way that the withdrawal was structured obviously was
20:30
pretty pretty and heartbreaking really.
20:34
So that's really interesting Holly again just talking from your perspective but there
20:37
was actually a quote towards the end of the end of your book here that I think is very
20:41
interesting it's this whether you agreed with the war or did not we can all collectively
20:45
agree that the way it was ended is as shameful as it is heartbreaking while we cannot wipe
20:50
the gore from our hands what we can do is continue to support those left behind empty
20:54
handed and afraid so let's talk about those that are left behind empty handed and afraid
21:00
because again and I played a part in this a lot of people played a part in this there
21:03
was so much outrage during August of 2021 and that outrage is just waned because we've
21:10
had presidential elections and we've had midterms and we've had balloons flying through
21:13
the sky and we've had a you know the war break out and you create all these different things
21:17
but what is the current state of what's going on on the ground right now in Afghanistan
21:21
with the Afghan people?
21:23
I just think it's you know it's obviously it's freezing in Afghanistan at the moment
21:27
it's just a very dismal place I mean there are such a few opportunities for people to
21:30
be able to work or to really do anything I think that it's just it's a hard place to
21:37
sort of get by I think especially for the women and the children I mean they're the ones
21:42
that are extremely vulnerable they're the ones that are suffering right now and women
21:47
can't go to their jobs they can't go to school they can't go to university I mean there's
21:53
such little hope for them that it's heartbreaking and of course children are affected in all
21:58
sorts of ways as well from the sort of lack of medical resources to the struggles for
22:05
food and just you know families that maybe we're sort of you know middle class by Afghan
22:10
standards or you know a reading out of trash now so you have to look at that and just think
22:15
that is sort of a failure on every level to protect some of the most vulnerable people
22:21
in society and I think it's so interesting because people on on this side of things people
22:27
in America regardless of your political persuasion we always pretend that we care about the little
22:31
guy or pretend about the person that's being you know unjustly ridiculed or where there's
22:37
just some sort of overall injustice happening but here recently I talked to Yomi Park about
22:42
she would tell these people that had a lot of influence what was going on in North Korea
22:46
and they would lament and they would cry but then they wouldn't do anything from there
22:49
it was like they're lamenting and they're crying about it publicly it was almost performative
22:53
but it's also well-known that Afghanistan sits atop you know an embarrassment of natural riches
22:59
so just an unbelievable amount of natural resources and you talk about this in the book
23:03
gold, copper, iron, lithium or hydrocarbons and more stuff like that and now it looks like
23:09
China is poised to take over those resources if they haven't already taken over some of
23:14
those very very important resources so can you tell us and maybe set the record straight
23:18
about what the Chinese influences is with the Taliban right now in Afghanistan?
23:23
So China has always had an influence with the Taliban and the Mazainak which is the big copper
23:28
mine that has just you know the massive resources of copper they've had that contract since 2008
23:35
so this was I mean you could look at this and also say this is ludicrous this is at a time
23:40
that the US is essentially occupying a country at that point we had you know 150,000 troops in the
23:45
country and yet the US so stood by and let the Afghan government give a contract to China
23:51
you can look at that and think that's pretty frickin stupid too but anyhow China never actually
23:56
sort of developed that mine because of the security situation because the Taliban were
24:01
continuing it to attack the area so it kind of sat there and also copper you have to remember
24:07
it didn't have the value in 2008 that it has now with smart cars and phones and all these things
24:12
we have now that rely on copper that wasn't such a thing in 2008 but now that it is and
24:18
China technically still has this contract to 2030 so it's really just them at the moment trying
24:24
to nut out agreement I think they are still hesitant with the security situation and doing
24:29
business with the Taliban can be a little bit of an arbitrary process because they do run on their own
24:34
they do run on their own rules so I think that is still being worked out but I think
24:40
China has sort of a strong business time we see this around the world with their
24:44
initiatives in building roads and bridges but essentially it's sort of a loan to own
24:51
and you sort of see that influence coming into Afghanistan but I think the Taliban
24:56
perhaps slightly to their credit are pushing back or are very concerned about any foreign country
25:02
kind of taking away their sebrinity and telling them what to do so I think the Taliban are very
25:07
aware of that even with China and I know one sort of sticking point was that China wanted
25:17
them to expel all the Uighurs that were living in Afghanistan. Afghanistan has a significant
25:21
Uighur population and of course China thinks these people are all extremists and terrorists but
25:29
from my understanding the Taliban really did push back against that and say no we don't have
25:33
terrorists in our country there's no need to send anybody home so that is maybe one hopefully that
25:39
they do stick to that principle but I do know that was a sticking point so it's sort of a mixed
25:44
bag with China I think on one hand there are things moving forward but I also think it isn't
25:49
this smooth sailing relationship I think there's a lot of differences between those two kind of
25:54
regimes that I don't think they have particularly worked out just yet so it's a it's a fractious
26:00
relationship yeah they're not the typical bedfellows that you would maybe have given for either side
26:05
but as we look forward into the future and again we're just we're just speculating here we have no
26:11
earthly idea but 10 years from now again we were there for 20 but 10 years from now what group will
26:17
be ruling Afghanistan is the Taliban still in power will there be some other force that has come in
26:22
and taken things over is there going to be like a pseudo shared government like what do you see
26:26
happening in the next decade I see the Taliban in power I don't see any reason to think that there
26:32
would be any other group willing to sort of do the work or the strength in numbers I think if all
26:38
the Afghans were willing to sort of band together and and and do what was necessary you would have
26:44
a chance but I don't don't I don't see that happening I think most Afghans are sort of fixed on getting
26:50
out of the country as opposed to staying in the country and sort of standing up and fighting for
26:55
a better country so I really don't see that changing many times soon I don't think I don't see foreign
27:01
country sort of unless I think even if there was sort of another 9/11 style attack I don't see the
27:07
US necessarily going back into Afghanistan given what we know of the values of Afghanistan so
27:13
I mean it's a little pessimistic at this point but I see Afghanistan under the Taliban rule in 10 years
27:24
and what I really hope is that Afghanistan I mean we don't want another war in Afghanistan and so
27:29
even if a group was to rise out that would that would be another war and Afghanistan has really
27:34
been in a perpetual state of war since the 70s so in a way you know unfortunately you know to
27:41
have a little least a little bit of stability and mind you Afghanistan still has a huge amount of
27:46
attacks I mean I'm talking every other day there's a suicide bombing we may not hear it about it in
27:50
the news anymore but it's there and sometimes that might be ISIS but I also think sometimes
27:56
it's dissident factions at the Taliban because the Taliban is not this monolithic group it's got a
28:01
variety of interests you've got the Kharnis you've got the Kandaharis you've got the people who are
28:05
aligned to Pakistan and I think we can't underestimate the Pakistan Pakistan's role in in trying to
28:11
and again it can't control every faction of the Taliban I think it thought that it could but it
28:16
can't so you do have many dissident factions so I think Afghanistan unfortunately is always going
28:22
to be under this perpetual banner of attacks and you know you're living on luck really and but
28:31
avoiding large-scale war I hope for for the sake of Afghanistan I don't know that how much more
28:39
conflict a country and it's people can really take and and that is just it's a because a lot of
28:47
great solutions for Afghanistan and it's it's a shame because if there's certainly at one point
28:52
there were some very promising things and it's a country that I love and and it holds a special
28:59
place in my heart for sure well you can certainly see that and I'm reminded of a quote from earlier
29:04
in your book where you say Afghans survive because they have to and they survive because they want to
29:09
resilience and I mean it you'd be hard pressed to come up with a better word to describe the Afghan
29:14
people regardless again regardless of the political persuasion or the motives of the people describing
29:19
what's happening in the plight of the Afghan people that are there right now it is such an
29:23
unbelievably resilient group of people and it's something that us in America or really any western
29:27
eyes nation that we don't really have to deal with the same level of depravity and pain and poverty and
29:33
just I mean they live their life looking over their shoulder and it's just it's not any way to live
29:37
so it's it's absolutely heartbreaking and there's not really a great way to segue away from that but
29:41
again guys the book Afghanistan is in the show notes you can go and check that out but I'm curious
29:45
about where you're going next because you said you know you've been to Afghanistan here within
29:49
the last few months I'm assuming that's not going to be your last trip to that country but I know
29:53
that you have other interests and other things that you're focusing on right now but in terms of your
29:57
work as a war or world correspondent where you focus on next so I have a I'm leaving in a couple
30:04
of days to do some work in the Middle East and then I have some work in in Asia as well in
30:11
different places but I'm also working on some domestic projects as well just looking at issues
30:17
within the United States obviously involving different sort of abuses and I think things that
30:24
could be highlighted here I think yeah there's a lot of things here that but we have to look at
30:31
and address as well and I think it's really important you know for me at the end of the day
30:34
you know I love traveling I love being in different places but the end of the day it's really about
30:38
the story and where I can highlight things that should be highlighted and I'm doing a lot more
30:46
work with trauma victims as well which is something very close to my heart so sort of doing a lot
30:50
more of that here and and and just sort of finding those stories I think that need to be told whether
30:57
they're here or abroad so that's sort of my my focus at the moment. So is there a place that you
31:05
have not been able to cover yet that you would really like to because it's kind of weird because
31:09
you've you've been in Afghanistan and Ukraine in the last few years and so obviously you're in these
31:13
hotbeds of all this craziness and war and terror and things like that but is there a place in the
31:19
world that maybe is so impossible to get into but you would like to get in there to see what's going
31:24
on or maybe someplace that we're not even paying attention to that has some level of depravity that
31:29
you would like to report on. Gosh there's there actually so many I think there are a lot of things
31:35
happening in different parts of Africa that I really like to cover that I just sort of haven't
31:40
in my career just because the right opportunities haven't aligned but I think a lot of things they
31:46
you know with children and women and child soldiers and issues like that that I think are sort of
31:51
hugely important they definitely need to be highlighted. I'd like to go back to a lot of the
31:56
places I've worked in the past Burma and Venezuela I'd like to also try a lot of new places I think
32:03
there are incredible stories in every country and I think again it's not it's not about the conflict
32:11
always it's not about the bang bang it's finding where I feel that I can do justice to the story
32:17
or the people's stories that aren't being told and so I think that's exist everywhere and I think
32:24
for me finding them in in sort of a lot of the countries that you don't always think of I think
32:32
is also very key I think that we tend to get fixated on certain things when they're happening in the
32:39
news and then it's hard to to sort of we easily forget that they're equal or much worse sort of
32:49
atrocities going on I mean the heart the earthquake in Syria and Turkey which I lost some friends in
32:56
that I mean that was just heartbreaking looking at 50,000 people dead and it really gets very little
33:01
coverage compared to Ukraine or to other places and it just what people are living in every day I
33:07
mean I was just talking to a friend of mine there and there he told me you know they're sitting outside
33:10
with his family again because they're expecting another strong earthquake and it's snowing and
33:15
just these you know his story just broke my heart about they have nowhere to go and he's begging me
33:20
you know sending me his CV saying if you know of anyone who can give me a job and this was someone
33:25
who lost their house already in Syria that their house was bombed and then they had to flee and
33:30
then they built a new life for themselves and now their house and absolutely everything they own
33:34
is destroyed and I look at what it's like every day for them and I look at you know things that I
33:41
complain about in life and I just think oh my gosh get it together because it's just again it's
33:47
this resilience and to want to just keep going when you can continually lose everything you have and
33:53
I think it's those stories that are so so important and and we fixate so much on on on countries and
34:02
you know even with Ukraine I mean what's happening there is tragic but there is a lot of tragedy
34:07
in the world and I think that we need to kind of look a little bit beyond the myopic vision of one
34:12
wall and that's why I think the work that you're doing and the stuff that you continue to focus on
34:17
is so important that's why we will continue to have you back on here to remind us of those things
34:21
because I mean how many guys in my audience are gals that are listening to this right now
34:25
when's the last time you heard about what happened in Syria and Turkey with the earthquake have you
34:29
even heard about it because I guarantee you I could walk into a coffee shop or a random store
34:34
right now and talk to random people about hey did you hear about what happened in Syria and Turkey
34:38
people would look at me you know like I had a thumb growing out of the side of my forehead like they
34:41
would have no idea what was going on and so there's a little bit of fatigue you can you can only
34:46
have so much empathy and only pay attention to human suffering around the world so much without
34:51
it absolutely affecting you in every cell of your body but it is still something that we need to
34:55
focus on not just the stuff that the New York Times finds appropriate to put on their headlines but
35:00
Holly McKay we've gone everywhere in this conversation as we normally do but that's all for me is there
35:03
anything else you want to get off your chest. Thank you so much for having me and your support
35:08
I really appreciate it and all you listeners so thank you. Holly McKay thank you for coming back
35:13
on undaunted life a man's podcast. There you go guys I hope you enjoyed the return appearance
35:17
of Holly McKay but before we let you go we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
35:21
Add on to life our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual
35:25
mental and physical resilience so the links I've got for you today I've got a link to Holly
35:28
Substack her website link to where you can buy your copy of Afghanistan the end of the US footprint
35:33
and the rise of the Taliban rule and also a link to only cry for the living. Thank you guys for
35:38
listening to this episode wherever you're listening to this please subscribe rate and leave us a
35:41
positive five star of you. If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast you
35:46
shoot me an email to info@undonton.life that's i-n-f-o @undonton.life. Follow us on Instagram and
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like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else including how to donate to keep
35:55
more content like this coming your way just go to www.undonton.life and as always we want to thank
36:00
the band August Burns Red for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this
36:04
podcast is our song "Cutting the Tides" which is off their 10th anniversary re-recording of their
36:08
album leveler. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson remember keep pushing
36:14
back darkness keep forging spiritual mental and physical resilience keep seeking the lion of Judah.
36:44
you