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This is Undaunted Life of Man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
0:53
All right, guys, we are kicking off the year 2022 with a bang with a great interview with one
0:58
of our favorites. That's Holly McKay. So if you're not familiar with Holly McKay, she's an author,
1:02
a journalist, and a war correspondent. And in addition to that, she finds time to be a humanitarian.
1:07
But Holly is the best-selling author of the book that we named the book of the year for 2021,
1:11
only cry for the living memos from inside the ISIS battlefield. She's been on this podcast
1:16
twice before. So episode 188, we spent a ton of time going into that book and her time on the ground
1:21
with Syria or in Syria with ISIS and all the things that were going on at the time. And in episode 222
1:26
of this podcast, we had a very, very short interview where we talked about what was going on in
1:30
Afghanistan. That was the first in a line of episodes called botching Afghanistan in that series.
1:35
But the thing is, is in this interview today, we go into a ton of detail over the last five
1:40
months that she spent in Afghanistan because, guys, she was in Afghanistan when it was falling
1:44
to the Taliban, right? So when the United States decided they were going to pull out of Afghanistan
1:48
and almost immediately the Taliban took over, she was in Afghanistan. The night that we talked
1:53
for it, that ended up being episode 222, she's in a building in an area where the Taliban is coming
1:59
in, right? At that moment, she doesn't know if she's safe or not. And again, you know,
2:04
she held it together for our interview. We talked a little bit afterwards, but we couldn't really
2:07
get into details. It was a rough situation. And I'm, you know, talked to a bunch of you guys
2:12
saying, Hey, we need to pray for her right now. Things are, things are absolutely crazy.
2:16
So she was right there in the middle of that. So we're going to get into all that detail
2:19
on this particular interview. We're going to talk about some of the misconceptions as to kind of
2:23
what's been going on in Afghanistan, how the media has been covering it. And she gets pretty
2:26
fired up in this interview as well, especially when we start talking about the corruption
2:30
of the Afghan government that was taken over by the Taliban. I've never seen her so animated
2:35
in any of her interviews or anything else that she's done. She got, she got pretty angry at those
2:39
different points. But we also talk about what she's going to be doing in the future, what we can
2:42
expect in 2022. And guys, I'm not going to keep her from you any longer. So without further ado,
2:47
let's get into it. Holly McKay, welcome back to undaunted life of man's podcast.
2:51
Hi, thanks for having me. We're so happy to have you on. And here's a deal right from the very
2:57
jump. Everyone's already heard this by now. They've been listening to the show. And you don't have
3:00
to pretend to be surprised because I already told you off air. But we have named your book
3:04
that you released in March of this year, only cry for the living memos from inside the ISIS
3:08
battlefield as the book of the year for 2021. Just to be honest, like, you know, this has been the
3:13
most prolific year of reading for me personally, read, you know, somewhere in the neighborhood around
3:17
45 books, that's a ton for a guy like me. And this one just stuck out like a sore thumb as the best
3:22
book of the year. But I guess for you, having spent this much time, I mean, it's about nine months
3:27
since the release of the book. How has the book done? And what has the reception been of what you've
3:33
written? Well, I think, you know, the reception that I've received has been pretty pretty positive.
3:40
And I hope that I'm able to paint a really different picture for people about these, about what was
3:45
happening in Iraq and Syria during the time of ISIS. And sort of come at things from a very intimate
3:51
personal level as opposed to just throwing very dry policy notes or statistics out there. I really
3:57
think it's important. And something I try to do as a journalist and writer is to to really write
4:03
from that place of humanity and to give people a picture of something that's, you know, looking
4:09
at it from a micro level, which then enables them to really understand things from a macro level.
4:14
And I think that's a it's often lost. There's this idea that journalists have to be completely
4:19
removed or completely compartmentalized. And I don't think that always does justice to the story. So
4:25
I very much try to to bring the readers in. So I hope that and my feedback has been that it has
4:31
resonated with people. As I said, my head has been buried in Afghanistan for the past five months.
4:37
So I really don't have any idea how it's done or anything like that. So I tend to stay away from
4:44
those things and just put the product out there and hope that people read it. Yeah, we'll certainly
4:50
get more to Afghanistan here in just a second. But one more question on this particular book.
4:54
When talking with authors who've had a lot of authors on this show, they always kind of have a
4:58
little bit of not regret, but they look back on their book and they're like, okay, I wish I would
5:02
have done this a little different. I would have massaged this section a little bit differently.
5:05
Looking back on your book, and I know you've been buried in your work in Afghanistan over the
5:08
last several months. Is there anything that you would have done differently? Is there anything
5:11
you wish you could take back? Just fixing some typos. That's about it. I try not to dwell too much.
5:18
You know, on what's already happened. And obviously when you are a writer and journalist,
5:23
you're constantly learning, constantly growing. I mean, I write so much that I would hope that my
5:28
writing continues to sort of improve every day. So sometimes you look at things and go, oh gosh,
5:33
I should have structured it differently or whatever. But I think that's just, that's just part of
5:38
growth. And as long as the story is out there, and that's the most important thing to me.
5:43
Well, some of the biggest advice that I give to guys is you should always be able to look back on
5:47
the guy you were five years ago and be at least a little bit embarrassed. I can't imagine what
5:51
it's like for a writer because I look back at, I'm not a professional writer and I look back at
5:54
stuff I wrote five, six years ago, and I'm like, are you like a wind up monkey? And then you just
5:58
started mashing on the keyboard like this, this doesn't make any sense. So I can imagine it being
6:02
pretty tough for you. But let's go ahead and get into Afghanistan. Because I know that's what our
6:05
listeners want to hear a lot about. And that's what you've been talking about and thinking about
6:08
for a long time. But you know, not too long ago, before we get right back into it, you were right
6:13
back in America after having spent several months, you said five months in Afghanistan. And you were
6:17
there including the fall of the country to the Taliban. And so I guess in the nicest, most relaxed
6:23
way to start possible, what is it like being back in the good old USA?
6:27
It is a little bit of an adjustment. I, yeah, I really, I mean, obviously, I love being in the
6:36
US and seeing friends and, and being able to go and, you know, go to the ADM and withdraw money.
6:44
That's something I couldn't do in Afghanistan. So, you know, there's certainly things that you
6:48
miss and Starbucks and simple things. But I do miss it. You know, I really, I love the work that I
6:56
do, even though it can be challenging and it can be very frustrating. And when you're in the moment,
7:00
I can't tell you how many times in Afghanistan, I said, I'm leaving, I'm leaving tomorrow. I've
7:04
had enough, I'm going, I'm going. And of course, you know, I didn't. But, but I really do love that
7:10
work. And I love the people. And yeah, it's, it's, my heart is very much there. And, and I do miss it.
7:17
So I will be back. Yeah, I mean, it's certainly apparent, you know, even whenever you're posting,
7:23
now that you're back in the United States that there is this longing for this place. And you've
7:27
been very, very, you've, you've beautified Afghanistan for a lot of people that only see it as this
7:32
war torn country with, you know, rubble and blood in the streets, which, you know, it is that, but
7:37
it's also a very beautiful country with a lot of beautiful people in it. But when you're gone,
7:41
there's just one thing that I was really curious about when I was preparing for this interview,
7:44
when you're gone for such long stretches, and you're in parts of the world that are in, you know,
7:49
murderous turmoil and experiencing almost unfathomable evil and darkness, how does it make you feel?
7:54
And you may just be completely insulated from it. But how does it feel when you come back to America?
7:59
And people are, you know, in the streets or on social media or at universities,
8:04
talking about how horrible the United States of America is and how evil of a country it is.
8:09
It is frustrating. And I think a lot of times I don't really understand it. And, you know, people
8:15
come and I never want to, I never want to take, you know, people always say to me, oh, it must be,
8:22
you know, come back and listening to complaints and things. And everybody has problems in life.
8:27
Everybody has challenges and struggles and things that they're upset about. And I never want to
8:31
compare my experiences in any way that would diminish what other people are going through.
8:36
But I do find a lot of the times I'm just very confused by the sort of complaints that come or
8:44
sort of the things that people fixate on and really just, I guess, you know, the obsessions with
8:53
social media and comparison and the sort of that kind of want and I hate to say, but so much
9:00
superficiality and I find it really difficult to relate to because I just, I don't understand it.
9:06
And so the longer that you spend overseas, the harder it sometimes is to kind of come back and
9:13
immediately reinsert into that life. And I think what it does is it makes me grateful that
9:19
I was able to, you know, at a very young age, find such a strong purpose in life because I think at
9:25
the end of the day, we are all looking for purpose in different ways. And you see that, you know,
9:30
in so many ways, people are looking for some meaning and they often don't know how to find it
9:34
or how to incorporate it into their daily lives. And so for me, I'm just, I'm very grateful that
9:40
I'm very clear on what it is that I believe my calling in life is. And I can't imagine sort of
9:46
having to flail around looking for that. And that's something I see a lot of people in the US struggle
9:54
with. Well, I'm assuming that a lot of that comes from the fact that you used to be on the Hollywood
9:59
beat. I mean, you were living this kind of weird life with celebrities and people whose images and
10:04
their super their superficiality was their business, right? And so I think that that's kind of informed
10:09
what you've done now in terms of Afghanistan. But I want to go and take us all the way back
10:14
to August of 2021. Okay, so you're in Afghanistan. The United States pulls almost all their military
10:20
personnel out of the country. The country almost immediately falls into the hands of the Islamic
10:24
fundamentalist terrorist organization known as the Taliban. But specifically, I want to go back
10:29
to the night when you and I spoke. Okay, so that was the night that, you know, we talked and it
10:33
turned into episode 222 of this podcast, the first in a series that I called botching Afghanistan.
10:38
We can only talk for about 10 minutes. We couldn't get into real specifics about where you were
10:43
or what your immediate plans were. My understanding is that the Taliban at that time that we were
10:49
speaking, they were either in the area that you were in, or perhaps even in the building
10:54
that you were in. I just got to tell you, Holly, we were covering you in prayer over here. Like,
10:58
I immediately messaged people. I was like, she's she's keeping it together because she's a professional,
11:02
but she's in it right now. And I don't really know if she's going to be safe or what that looks like.
11:07
And I know that we're not unique in that. I know there were a lot of people
11:09
thinking about you and praying about you. But take us back to that time period when the country
11:14
is falling and you're in country. What's going on? So I was already in the country
11:21
prior to the fall and was working in Kabul. And then so there's somebody by the name of
11:28
General Dostrom. And so I had known General Dostrom for many years and spent some time with him in
11:33
Turkey. And he was sort of, I don't know, I guess he's been personified a little bit and there was a
11:39
movie that came out a few years ago called 12 Strong. But essentially, he was the warlord
11:43
when the US initially went into Afghanistan after September 11. And he's the initial person who
11:49
who kind of took US Special Forces in to kind of take the Taliban out. So he was known as this sort
11:54
of very strong man. He was very controversial, having committed a lot of alleged human rights
12:00
abuses. But but nonetheless, this sort of very sort of strong, powerful figure. And someone who
12:07
would never really think would ever give up the fight, if that makes sense. So I know, you know,
12:13
he's people very well, and they said, well, you can go and do an embed with General Dostrom,
12:16
he's from the North in Missouri. And so at that point, you know, that was a compelling story.
12:23
So my photographer, Jake and I decided that we would fly to Missouri. And you know, it was
12:29
tenuous because a lot of the provinces around Missouri had already fallen to the Taliban. But we,
12:35
you know, I guess, put the trust into the Afghan commandos and the resistance forces that were
12:41
on the ground there. And Mazar had always traditionally been a very strong resistance place.
12:45
So we went to Mazar. I remember we flew. I think it was very early on a Thursday morning.
12:52
And, you know, you sort of get there. And the city was the city that I'd remembered from
12:56
previous trips to Afghanistan. It was very vibrant. The markets were very much alive. People were
13:02
doing going about their thing. And then just sort of day by day, you saw things start to go a little
13:09
bit quiet. And people were suddenly at the bank trying to get their money out. And everybody we
13:14
knew was sort of fleeing to Kabul. And, you know, it just happened so quickly. And then
13:21
by that Saturday, we were, you know, you were seeing people fleeing from just outside Mazar
13:27
in these little tuk tuks, these little rickshaws, just with everything they had, because the
13:31
Taliban's were taking over, you know, these areas. And then next thing, you know, I was with an
13:36
interpreter who got a call and said, you know, they've broken through the first front line. And
13:41
there was three. And, you know, we're basically surrounded. And I couldn't, there was no flights
13:46
to go back to Kabul. And, you know, so it was just by that night, that's when we, you know,
13:53
we went out and we kind of hurried back because it was so eerie outside. And you saw the Taliban's
13:58
just coming in on motorcycles. And it was sort of that, that quick and that easy. And so we were
14:03
sort of in a hotel just watching, watching the Taliban's come in and basically take over every
14:09
inch of the city and then had to sort of figure out what we were going to do. And Kabul fell the
14:14
next day, which obviously made it really impossible to just kind of get any assistance. So it was on
14:21
us. And from the beginning, I was a big advocate of just going to talk to the Taliban. For me,
14:26
it was an uncertain time because we didn't know how they were going to respond to foreigners,
14:31
to journalists, to a woman. But, you know, became very apparent that really was the only way that
14:36
we could leave. And I, and we needed to leave because the staff at the hotel had basically stayed
14:44
there for us. And they were scared. And they were all previous, you know, government intelligence
14:48
employees. And they needed to leave themselves. And so it sort of got to a point where I just said,
14:53
okay, we need to do this now. And so that was the approach that we took.
14:58
Well, Holly, I'm assuming nobody listening to this right now has ever walked up to a member
15:04
of the Taliban to strike up a conversation. But, but honestly, like, take me through that because
15:08
you talk about it so casually, because you're a professional journalist, you just talk about it,
15:12
like, Hey, this is part of the job. But there had to be at least some fear in the back of your mind.
15:17
And you alluded to it a little bit ago, that this may not go well, just walking right up to the
15:22
Taliban that's now been, you know, infused with all these new weapons and all this new excitement
15:27
and confidence. Is there a part of you that thought this might be it for me that I'm walking,
15:32
I'm potentially walking to the gallows here. I think initially that was a part of me that,
15:38
you know, just kind of was concerned about how I guess it's just a real feeling, really. It's
15:44
something you sort of look at and you think, Oh, my goodness, nobody, nobody can help me right now.
15:49
There is nothing anybody can do. And, you know, that and this wasn't in the plan. And I think,
15:55
you know, that moment, especially on that first night was was very unsettling. But quickly,
16:01
you have to, you can't panic. And I think that's something we as war reporters that we're very
16:06
much trying to do is you have your moment, you let it pass, and then you get your logical brain
16:12
on. So I think, you know, that certainly was a huge risk factor in it. And, and that definitely
16:19
crossed my mind. But, you know, at the end of the day, I felt that it was the best choice. And I
16:23
felt intuitively that it was the best choice. And so I wasn't particularly scared. And we,
16:28
we sort of used an intermediary who came to the hotel and, and talked to us. And he was a local
16:35
business person who knew the Taliban's. And so then he kind of went to them and told them where we
16:40
were and who we were and what we were doing. And yeah, and then the next thing you know,
16:46
two Taliban elders were, were at the hotel and, and we were in the basement with them
16:51
and getting into their car. So that was, that was sort of the approach. And it was very strange. And,
16:57
and we got into the car and any of these, these two men looked at us and sort of said, welcome,
17:03
welcome to our country. So it was very bizarre. And then immediately, you know, I kicked into
17:10
journalist mode. I'm like, what can I interview you? And so, you know, I'm going in this car with
17:15
these Taliban's and the same time interviewing them. And at that point, I wasn't scared anymore,
17:22
because I felt that they weren't going to harm me in any way. And that, you know, that they had
17:27
sort of this obligation to, it's a passion while the obligation to protect guests in their country.
17:33
And so I think, I think it's important. And this was often lost in the media. I think it's very
17:38
important also to acknowledge that the Taliban is not al-Qaeda. It is not ISIS. And they have a
17:44
very different ideology and a different focus in, in terms of what they were doing. And it was also
17:50
important to remember that at that point, they were no longer an insurgency. They were a government.
17:56
And so obviously, you know, our memories of the Taliban of them as an insurgency, you know,
18:01
committing these heinous crimes. But at that point, it was that immediate switch of, well,
18:06
now we're a government and we're trying to be recognized. And so they were obviously going to
18:11
to take a very different tactic with foreigners in their country.
18:14
And there's still in the process of trying to figure that out. And from the outside looking in,
18:18
we'll get more into that in a second. It doesn't look like it's going particularly well. But
18:21
my understanding is that you kind of going back to right after you, it's kind of settled into what
18:26
was happening after the immediate fall, you were eventually able to escape. I think you said to
18:31
Uzbekistan, you were able to escape Afghanistan to Uzbekistan. But you weren't out of country very
18:36
long before you came back in to Afghanistan. So kind of take us through the decision, I guess,
18:41
how you got out. And then almost the immediate decision to come back.
18:45
So a different group of Taliban's, you know, with some help, because the Uzbek's had to open the
18:49
border. The border was closed. Quite frankly, neither of us wanted to leave. But at that point,
18:54
it was impossible to get back to Kabul, given the situation that was happening there.
18:59
So we, the only way really was, Mazar is relatively close to the Uzbek border. So we had to get some
19:05
coordination and having the Uzbek's open the border specifically for us. And these younger
19:11
set of Taliban's. And so, you know, once these elders took us, dropped us, and then this sort of
19:17
younger set of Taliban's, you know, very young guys, you know, taking selfies, wielding their
19:21
weapons, very, you know, very, very bizarre. They then escorted us to the border to ensure that we
19:27
could get through the checkpoints. And we weren't going to have any issues with that.
19:31
So it really was the only option at that point, just because of the tenuous situation and
19:37
what was happening in Kabul. So we went in to Uzbekistan. And, you know, I think Jake and I
19:45
immediately, you know, we knew that we weren't, you know, everybody kept saying, you're coming home,
19:49
you're coming home. And I sort of wasn't going to admit to people, I'm actually going back.
19:54
But, but, you know, I kept that very much on the down low. So we did a little bit of work in his
19:59
Uzbekistan and a little bit of work in in Dushan Bay in Tajikistan. And then we just like, okay,
20:05
we're ready to go back now. So the Uzbek said, just opened the border. And so, you know, we
20:12
still had our valid media visas, which the Taliban's were still honoring and are still honoring at
20:17
this point. And basically, yeah, we just literally walked across the border. We got stamped out of
20:22
Uzbekistan. I had my backpack and my roller bag. And we just walked along that same bridge that
20:27
we'd been taken out of. It's called friendship bridge. And we, next thing you know, I'm at this
20:32
little passport hut on the border. And there's a Taliban running it. And he doesn't even sort of
20:37
ask any questions or look at us. He just stamps my passport with this new Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan
20:43
stamp. And off we go. And we do this sort of heinous 12 hour drive back to Kabul.
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at prolonlife.com slash now. So you spent the next several weeks after that, or at least that's
21:22
what it seemed like on social media, kind of just driving around Afghanistan. And the thing that
21:26
was unique about it, and you you constantly pointed this out, is you basically had unfettered access
21:31
to a country that you could have not seen in that way at any time before, or at any time that you
21:36
had been living over there and working over there. Is that kind of what it was like, you know, just
21:40
basically being able to go essentially wherever you wanted to? Yeah, previously, I mean, that was
21:44
completely impossible. You could barely travel much outside of Kabul by road. And there was certain,
21:50
you could do certain commercial airline trips to certain cities, but you know, they were they
21:55
were limited as well. But but yeah, all of a sudden, it was it was this entire country that was open
22:01
up to me that had never been before. So we did a lot of travel over the past few months, pretty
22:06
much to to almost every province of Afghanistan and a lot of really long road trips. And so,
22:13
you know, I got to see really a lot of the country in a lot of, I think it's really important too much
22:18
of the the media lens often tends to come outside of Kabul in the way that that people in villages
22:24
and rural areas think and act is is is incredibly different to the mindset in the Kabul. And I think
22:30
that's a really important to cover that, because it is very different to Kabul. And we need to get
22:34
that very rounded sense of exactly what is happening in Afghanistan. So I devoted a lot of time to
22:41
going to those rural areas and talking to the people and and try to understand how their lives
22:47
would change and shape. Well, I think that dovetails nicely into what I wanted to ask you about now,
22:52
which is, I'm sure there are a lot of misconceptions about what's actually going on on the ground or
22:57
what's been going on on the ground in Afghanistan over the last several months. I'm sure some news
23:02
and some news outlets and stories have been sensationalized for clicks and for headlines and,
23:06
you know, basically the Twitter verse. So I guess I want to give you a little bit of time to set the
23:10
record straight for us, you know, describe the good, the bad and the ugly going on in Afghanistan,
23:16
and maybe some things that people are getting wrong. So I think overall, you know, if I wasn't in
23:21
Afghanistan, and I was just reading social media or reading news headlines, I would think on my
23:26
goodness, this is this mass slaughter, you know, how everybody's being dragged from the homes and
23:31
killed and all sorts of terrible things are happening. And that's really not the case. I know that's
23:38
not often the what people want to hear. I think there's sort of this very much this drive, especially
23:43
from a lot of people who have left the country or from a lot of politicians who kind of want to
23:48
look at it, like the Taliban's are committing, you know, this sort of crazy genocide. And it's
23:53
quite frankly, it's it's not true. And there's a lot of misinformation that was perpetuated. And
23:58
certainly, certainly there was isolated cases of retaliation of people being, you know, taken or
24:06
disappeared or whatever it may be. And that did happen. But it was very much the exception, not the
24:12
rule. And I certainly think the Taliban's need to be held to account when those things happen. But
24:19
sort of, I think the scale to which they were being perpetuated and shaped in in in the media were
24:26
very inaccurate. And there was just an incredible amount of disinformation. And I'll give you one
24:31
example. So there was sort of a rumor that was going around. And it was being, you know, repeated
24:36
on Instagram stories where the likes of Kim Kardashian and other people, which have huge
24:40
followings. And the story was, because many people asked me about it, the story was of the Taliban
24:45
beheaded a girl in, in, I think it was in Missouri. And when I looked into it, this girl had been
24:52
killed in July. So before the Taliban's came to power, and she wasn't killed by the Taliban,
24:57
she was killed by an internal family fight, and she wasn't beheaded. But yet that story
25:02
became this sort of rallying cry for everybody that was trying to leave the country. And you
25:07
know, even today, I'm sort of bombarded constantly with, with people how, you know, desperate to
25:14
leave desperate to get out people, you know, American groups saying, Oh, someone says on the
25:18
threat and threat and and when you dig down, I, you know, I have to question often, they aren't
25:25
under threat. The fear is contagious. So when people think, Oh, you know, my neighbor scared and my
25:31
sister-in-law scared and and you know, everyone I know is scared. So I have to be scared too. And so
25:38
I just sort of found that when you sort of dug deep, there's just a lot of fear and everybody
25:43
wants to leave. And but when you really did deep, there's only, I guess, a small subset that have
25:50
a genuine threat against them. And certainly those people need to be taken care of and a lot of them,
25:56
you know, need that support to leave the country. But it's not, it's not on the mass scale that
26:01
is sort of being perpetuated. And having said that, you know, for women and for a lot of people,
26:06
it's incredibly difficult. And they don't have a lot of choice but to leave. But just sort of in
26:11
terms of the threat scale, I do think that was largely, largely overblown.
26:17
- Now, in terms of kind of this mass slaughter that people thought was going to happen imminently,
26:22
a lot of sober minded journalists and commentators have said, well, no, they were never going to do
26:27
that immediately. But it's coming. I mean, right now they're trying to get money. They're trying to
26:32
get money from the United States and other countries to basically flush into the country
26:35
because of the issues that have happened with their economy crumbling and their currency crumbling.
26:40
But is it coming? Like I know you can't tell the future, but are we going to see that in the next
26:45
months or years? - Again, it's very impossible to say and, you know, the Taliban's can be very
26:51
unpredictable in the approach they take. And it really depends on the approach their leaders take.
26:56
But certainly the sense that I got from them, you know, and I met with many of them
27:01
on a daily basis was that they were, they very much wanted to be seen as a legitimate government.
27:08
And they wanted to be seen, you know, by the world and recognized. And I think that they understand
27:12
the ramifications that come if they are going to commit some of those very harsh abuses.
27:19
So I think they have that to weigh up. And I couldn't say with confidence that that is going
27:25
to happen. I don't think anybody can say that with confidence. And I think when we try to do too
27:29
much, you know, predication in the media, it tends to then feed into sort of this fake news narrative.
27:36
So I think the important thing is really dealing with the reality that exists right now. And the
27:41
reality that exists right now is that the Taliban's are trying to portray themselves
27:46
as something of a legitimate force, which is really hard for us as Americans to wrap our
27:52
head arounds because we've known the Taliban's not only in their brutal rule in the 1990s,
27:57
but we've known them to be this terrible insurgency that have killed many, many innocent people.
28:02
So it is hard for us to kind of see them outside of that light. But I think it's important that
28:08
we do that because, and as I said, they are not an insurgency anymore. They are for better or for
28:15
worse, you know, a functioning government. As we're to even hear you say that they're a functioning
28:21
government because even even in dysfunction, they have to function in some way, shape, or form.
28:25
And I was going to ask you, and again, you're absolutely right. It's almost impossible to see
28:29
what next week's going to look like. But it's like, Hey, what are the next three to five years
28:32
look like for the Afghan people? It's just impossible to know. All we can do is pray that it's not
28:37
horrible and violent and bloody and terrible. But my understanding is that there is an impending
28:42
humanitarian crisis happening right now inside of Afghanistan. And it's not just people suffering,
28:47
you know, violence or oppression at the hands of the Taliban, we're entering into the winter months,
28:51
right? So we're technically already there. And I've seen some reporting, but it's again,
28:54
it's hard to corroborate anything, you know, stateside that we should expect to see hundreds of thousands,
29:00
if not millions of people, including children, starved to death or face famine induced health
29:06
issues that could also kill them. How accurate is this forecasting? Because I've heard it from
29:12
people that are somewhat in the know, and then I've heard it from dorks on Twitter. So kind of
29:15
help us set the record straight a little bit. I think, you know, it's, it's, Afghans are incredibly
29:20
resilient people. And mind you, Afghanistan has been a poor country for a very, very long time.
29:25
And, you know, their ability to survive. And really, one thing that I love about the Afghan
29:33
people is their ability to support one another. So, you know, when, when families and things are
29:39
starving, you know, other families will try to help them. And so there is this incredible
29:44
camaraderie where Afghans really, you know, careful one another. But the situation is,
29:50
is incredibly dire economically. And obviously that that spirals into humanitarian crisis. You've
29:57
got people that just the level of not only unemployment, you've got inflation to give you
30:03
some context. When I first went to Afghanistan, the Afghani was about 70 cents to the dollar,
30:09
and it is now over over 100. So that gives you a sense of just how quickly that currency is
30:14
fallen. And in addition to that, the unemployment, the inflation, the lack of NGO, the lack of,
30:19
you know, humanitarian organizations that have left and haven't come back. And, you know, and I think,
30:27
I think, you know, that that in large part comes from the US freezing 9.5 billion when the Taliban
30:33
took control in August, and they froze that money, which is something that the Taliban's
30:37
obviously weren't anticipating because that money had been earmarked for the previous government.
30:42
However, I would beg to say that much of that money would never have gone to the Afghan people
30:46
anyway. The previous government was incredibly corrupt. It's something that infuriates me hugely,
30:51
because that is our money as US taxpayers that they effectively stole from us and from the Afghan
30:56
people. And I think, since the Taliban's have come, there's sort of been this whitewashing of the
31:01
previous government as if they were leading some country into some great democracy, which was never
31:06
the case. I mean, people in Kabul obviously got to, you know, learn to play music or, you know,
31:10
have a little bit more freedom. But essentially, the Ghani led government previously before that,
31:16
the Khazi led government with thieves, they all stole and every possible level stole money.
31:23
So, so much of the money, you know, the $2 trillion that we as US taxpayers devoted to Afghanistan,
31:30
it could have been to buy by now, but it's not. And that is because people, their greed overtook
31:35
everything. And it was, again, the Afghan people who really suffered, the poor Afghan people,
31:40
and they're suffering again and suffering in an even worse way right now. So, they are resilient.
31:46
They are used to these struggles, but the struggles are obviously a lot more widespread now. There
31:51
is no middle class. There are people that, you know, have just completely dipped below the poverty
31:57
line. And it's hugely concerning because there is no medical supplies. It's impossible to get
32:02
money out. You know, you can't, you can't get a Western Union transfer, you can't go to an ATM.
32:07
And there's such limited amounts of money that you can get out. So, there is this really a huge
32:12
cash problem on top of that. And I think that the United States has to, to reckon with that and
32:18
make a very uncomfortable decision, which, you know, is not certainly not going to be popular,
32:23
but the decision is, do we want to somehow work with a government, you know, that has committed a
32:30
lot of human rights abuses in the past? Or are we willing just to turn a blind eye again and let
32:35
the Afghan people suffer? Because it's not the Taliban's who suffer. The Taliban's would never
32:39
paid a salary for 20 years. They used to, you know, this and, and they'll get by on, you know,
32:43
they'll even tell me we can operate on a very low overhead. We aren't fighting for money. We,
32:48
we fought for 20 years with no salary because we believed in our cause. Whereas it's the Afghan
32:53
people who will continue to suffer from many sanctions and the freezing of money. And that's
32:59
something that I think Washington has to take huge responsibility for because we created a country
33:04
that was completely propped up by foreign aid and by a foreign footprint and by, you know,
33:09
these external things, it never came from Afghanistan itself. So when that was sort of
33:14
immediately yanked away, there was nothing left. So I think that the Washington has a huge
33:20
responsibility to the Afghan people and that we are going to have to make some very uncomfortable
33:26
decisions, but we have to, you know, Afghans have suffered enough. And we have to, to start
33:31
thinking about their best interest, not our best interest in, in dealing with the humanitarian crisis.
33:38
Well, just briefly, Holly, before we move on, I want to go back into that corruption piece that
33:41
you're talking about with the government because in all the discussion of Afghanistan, and I've
33:45
listened to hours and hours and in red, a ton of stuff this year on what's going on in Afghanistan,
33:51
corruption is like an afterthought, the corruption of the government and people stealing and people
33:56
leaving the country as the Taliban was coming in with, you know, playing fools of cash and things
34:01
like that. I guess I don't even know what my question would be aside from why is the corruption
34:07
not talked about more? And, you know, how does that lead to, because you mentioned you use the
34:11
phraseology, uncomfortable decisions moving forward? Are you talking about us reentering
34:16
militarily? Are you talking about us negotiating with the Taliban as if they're a legitimate
34:21
government? But talk, talk a little bit more about the corruption piece because it's getting
34:25
short shrift on any of the covers that I've seen. And you know, and that's the problem. It was
34:29
always the secondary thought or an afterthought for 20 years, and yet it just proliferated to
34:34
every possible level. I mean, for Afghans to get basic services done, they had to pay bribes.
34:40
You know, these are already poor people. You couldn't get through a checkpoint. You couldn't get
34:44
a passport. You couldn't do anything without paying a bribe. It was absolutely disgusting.
34:48
To get an interview at the United States Embassy, you had to pay a middleman $5,000,
34:54
like these were Afghans coming out of university. And I've been told this from many of them.
34:59
They had to pay bribes to get jobs, to get interviews, and then you see it with the infrastructure.
35:06
So, you know, the America would just hand out, you know, tens of millions for a road project.
35:13
And some company would take it. They would pocket 80% of it, and then employ some very cheap
35:19
labor, you know, foreign companies who come in and use very cheap materials to, you know,
35:24
build a quarter of the road that they were supposed to build. And then that would erode
35:28
within a season. And there was never any accountability. And this just happened on mass scale. You had
35:33
you had judges and that would or policemen that would create fake charges against innocent people
35:39
just so they could get a bribe money at the trial. Like it just it was so systemic.
35:45
And I've been beating the drum about this for years and, you know, into thin air.
35:49
But to me, that really was was the I would say my assessment, the leading factor to what brought
35:56
the Taliban in, because even if you get to a point where you don't agree with the Taliban's
36:01
idea, ideologically, you get so sick of being poor and having to pay bribes. And you see
36:08
your government leaders running around in a Rolls Royce with gold watches constantly.
36:12
And that's going to infuriate you to the point where you're going to want to fight against that.
36:17
And I think I saw so much and the Taliban really played on that. They played on this idea of
36:22
we aren't going to be corrupt. And that's how they were able to recruit so many people and and
36:26
still, you know, that is the sort of fundamental message that they're pushing. And the mind you,
36:30
they don't have the money to be corrupt right now. Who knows what will happen, you know, if and when
36:35
they do get, you know, much larger sums of money, it's it's impossible to tell. But that is a central
36:39
tenant. And one of the central tenants of Mueller Omar who founded the Taliban was, you know, this
36:44
idea of beating corruption. So to me, it just it played such a big part right down to,
36:51
you know, the amount of ghost soldiers that were on the books. So on paper, there was 300,000
36:56
Afghan soldiers when in reality, it was just their commanders who would literally when they
37:01
would die on the battlefield, take their bank cards and continue every month to get their salary out.
37:06
So when the US looks at it and thinks, okay, well, the forces must be strong enough. There's 300,000
37:12
of them. Well, no, in reality, there might be 100,000 of them. And that wasn't strong enough
37:16
to beat the Taliban. So the ripple effects of it, it just is some mammoth. And I can't drive home
37:22
how much it infuriates me. And even now, you know, these these government leaders, including the
37:28
president who have all left the country. And you know, nobody's ever going to be held accountable.
37:33
And and you have, you know, essentially, in the United States now, many people have been evacuated
37:38
who essentially already stole millions from the US. And here they are getting a safe haven here
37:43
with no accountability. And it absolutely infuriates me because, you know, we, we as Americans,
37:48
we work hard and Americans played with a lot of blood and treasure in Afghanistan. And they sort
37:54
of see that happen in something that should have been stopped a long time ago. And it just never was.
38:00
And I really hope that if we learn any lessons out of this, it is, you know, you've got a nip,
38:06
if you're going to go into a country and give it large sums of money, you have to nip this in the
38:10
bud, because this is the result you get when you guys, right? Hopefully the writers of the history
38:16
books actually acknowledge this is one of those issues, because again, a lot of people are trying
38:20
to cover their butts as soon as this went down, a lot of people in government will get to the
38:23
government here in just a second. But it has created a ton of issues. And one of the issues that
38:28
I still talked about, you know, with my friend group, and I know people are worried about it,
38:32
is the fact that a lot of people were not vetted whenever they were shipped out of the country or
38:36
brought here or a repurpose one way or another. And it's always hard, especially if you're a
38:41
Christian, if you believe in the Imago day, looking at somebody and thinking, do you want to kill me?
38:45
I don't know if you're one of the nice people that we should have saved or if you're someone
38:48
that wants to kill me because I understand that the Taliban is not playing 4D chess. You know,
38:54
our mutual friend Mike Ritlin is he basically is very dismissive of their capabilities, you know,
38:59
especially on the battlefield. But do you foresee the Taliban eventually striking the West again
39:05
with with a mass casualty terrorist attack, which was basically propagated with this overwhelming
39:09
humanitarian desire to move Afghans from in country to elsewhere? Do you feel like the Taliban
39:15
has is in there? Is ISIS K in there? Like, I don't want to be ignorant about the subject matter,
39:20
but it is somewhat concerning, no, right? Well, the Taliban's themselves were not
39:24
the ones that orchestrated 9/11. That was done by Al Qaeda. And again, this is, you know,
39:30
subnotes. So the Taliban's and then this is also why I'm pushing this point of not being
39:36
tone deaf now. So during the 1990s, the Taliban's were there was no more isolated government than
39:41
the Taliban's. They were, you know, completely isolated from the rest of the world in terms of,
39:47
you know, being getting any sort of recognition or support. It just didn't happen. So they had no
39:51
money in the 1990s. And the one person who came in and gave the money and not much, mind you,
39:56
about a million and a half dollars was Osama bin Laden. So naturally, they felt this very
40:01
kinship to protect him. So when 9/11 happened and then, you know, George W Bush said, well,
40:07
you hand him over or we're coming in, you know, the Taliban's with their past tune, Wally,
40:11
were like, well, no, he's the only person who sort of was there for us during, you know, the 1990s.
40:17
So they had very very much felt an allegiance to him. And so my point to that is not being
40:22
turned deaf in 2021 in completely isolating a regime because that, to me, is a dangerous
40:29
national security threat to us because it will be the likes of bin Laden that can sort of come in
40:34
and give them a little bit of money and therefore have safe haven and protection. And I don't want
40:39
to see that happen again, obviously. So but back to your point on the vetting issue,
40:44
what I really found was, yes, there was, to get into the airport, it was basically a lucky
40:49
dip. You know, there were so many people that really deserved to get to be evacuated that haven't
40:54
been. And people I know that had no case never served the United States, never supported the US
40:59
in any way. And in fact, I know someone who was banned from the US who was now living in the US
41:04
because he was lucky enough to push through the crowd to get it on an evacuation flight. And
41:08
sometimes you even have to question if you, you know, if you're pushing through women and children
41:13
to get your way to the front, you know, what kind of person are you anyway? Because it was just,
41:17
it was so chaotic. So I do think there are concerns, I mean, I can't speak to any specific
41:22
terrorist threat. I did speak to some Taliban's who said that their families had been evacuated,
41:28
which, you know, was like, well, what is your threat if your family's Taliban, you should be fine.
41:33
But but yeah, it was very much this very much a lucky dip, whoever was fortunate enough to get
41:38
to the gates and get inside the airport were taken out. And and that's concerning to me,
41:45
because there was a lot of people who who never deserved to be evacuated and a lot of people who
41:49
did who were left behind. And so that's a sort of points to the complete disorganization of that
41:55
the whole withdrawal process. I wrote a little song to remind you choice hotels get you more
42:01
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42:21
book direct at choice hotels.com. See you on the roof. Well, there were a lot of things that
42:28
were infuriating to me with that whole deal. And we've talked about some of them in our previous
42:32
conversations. But one of the ones was these pictures inside these planes of all these military
42:36
aged males. I didn't see a lot of women and children on some of these pictures. And again,
42:39
I didn't see every picture of every single airplane to be fair. But it's exactly what you said. It
42:44
was the ones that were strong enough or dirty enough to to push their way through and push past
42:49
the the elderly and the women and the children in order to get themselves freedom. And now those
42:54
some of those people are left in country. And they're they're suffering for that. And this really
42:58
goes into the part which we might just kind of tie it up with this question here is Joe Biden
43:03
and his administration and the generals obviously are directly responsible for a lot of what happened
43:08
here because of all the mistakes that were made. Now, I think I already know the answer to this
43:13
unfortunately, but I have to ask it anyway. Will Joe Biden and the generals and the people at the
43:18
Pentagon and the State Department, will they ever be able to live down the catastrophic pull out
43:23
from Afghanistan and all the death and all the pain and the ripple effects that it will cause?
43:27
Again, I feel like I already know the answer because I've already seen the media ignore it
43:31
entirely. That's why I keep trying to push people to your content to make sure it stays top of mind.
43:36
But will this define these people? I you know, you know, I still see statements from President
43:43
Biden basically saying what a success the withdrawal was, which is right is mind blowing to me.
43:49
You know, unfortunately, I think the American mindset just tends to move on very quickly. You
43:55
even see with Afghanistan, obviously the coverage of it during August was basically wall to wall.
44:00
And then immediately the moment that last plane left it little plummeted to nothing and people
44:05
moved on to something else and Afghanistan really was no longer anywhere near front and center in
44:10
the news. So I think that unfortunately, you know, with, you know, there'll be a sub-sector,
44:15
the population, you know, especially people that serves in Afghanistan or have a real kinship to it
44:20
that will remember and and will definitely won't won't ever forget that. But I think the large
44:27
majority will just sort of shrug their shoulders and move on. And that's that's really disappointing.
44:32
You even see, you know, with the terrible situation with the drone strike on the family
44:36
cobble that I met with very many times, you know, that had many children, seven children were killed,
44:42
one of the men, you know, all his three children were killed. And yet there's no accountability.
44:49
Nobody's going to be punished. There's no. And I have a real issue with that because
44:53
you can't go around. And this happened many times during the war and was ignored this time. It
44:58
couldn't be ignored because it was so sort of public. But you can't, you can't make those kind
45:05
of mistakes. The United States is better than that without holding accountability to that.
45:10
And, you know, that's something that really, that really upsets me that there is a multiple
45:15
chain of people are involved in making those decisions. And the fact that, you know, everybody
45:20
can wipe their hands and say, well, I, it's not my responsibility when you've just destroyed lives
45:26
like that. And again, this family has not received any phone call from the US, no apology. And that,
45:35
and we've actually put them or the White House has put them in a more dangerous position because
45:39
they've gone around saying, Oh, we're going to give compensation to this family. Well,
45:42
that family has not received compensation. And now people around them think they have money.
45:47
So they are a bigger target than they were, you know, to these criminal gangs than before,
45:52
because suddenly people think they have money, which they don't have. And I just, that broke
45:56
my heart as an American to, to sit with them many times and to, to hear their story and to,
46:02
to hear their pain and, and to know that there was never ever going to be any, any insight. And,
46:10
you know, and when we don't look at these things and we don't reflect upon them, and there is no
46:14
accountability, that's why they continue to happen. And they continue to happen. And every time you
46:18
bomb the wrong house, you suddenly having 200 more Taliban recruits. So, you know, we really need to,
46:26
if we're going to go into these countries, these things really need to be fundamentally addressed,
46:30
because America is better than that. We are a country that is supposed to value human life,
46:36
you know, in a far more deeper way than many of these countries. And yet, you know, time and time
46:41
again, these things happen. And, and we don't, we don't adequately address them. We try to brush
46:47
them under the cover. And I think clearly this is what's happened with that particular drone
46:51
strike and really with the Afghanistan withdrawal overall. And that drone strike, it's not shocking
46:58
to me that they didn't pay because they got the headline. The headline was, we're going to make
47:01
this right. We're going to do all those different things. But nobody's going to follow up. If you're
47:05
a Joe Biden fan or a reader of the New York Times or, you know, you love Jen Psaki, she's
47:08
your favorite person on the planet. Oh, she said it so must have happened. And so it's very easy to
47:13
kind of get, get mad with all this. But there is a tremendous lack of extreme ownership here.
47:16
I remember when Jocko Willink around this time did that video on Instagram that went viral.
47:21
Basically, if he were president, what he would have said, and it would be refreshing to hear
47:24
someone say one of these people that's currently in the process of failing upwards, right? One of
47:29
these people that made these horrible mistakes that's going to end up getting promoted for it
47:32
or getting a bonus for it or something like that, it would be great to hear them admit. Yeah, we did
47:36
something wrong. We absolutely blew it. Because guess what? I don't want to hear it 15 years from
47:40
now when they're writing their third memoir, how they feel kind of bad about how they basically wiped
47:45
out an entire family. But we're kind of getting close to time here. And I want to make sure that
47:49
we wrap up with this because we've talked a lot about Afghanistan. You've already expressed that
47:53
you want to get back there. You're already itching to get back there, even though, hey,
47:56
we're just chilling in America right now. You know, sun shining birds are terping. But
48:00
what's next for Holly McKay? I mean, are you going to go back to Afghanistan, Syria? Are you gonna
48:04
write another book? Kind of give us an idea. Yeah, I'm actually my photographer and I are working on
48:08
an Afghan Afghanistan photo book. So putting that together at the moment. So that'll be out, I think
48:14
in around April next year. So it'll be a little bit different, but it'll be kind of my writing and
48:20
just incredible photographs that that Jake, my photographer took. So it'll be a little bit more
48:25
of a visual experience for people. And yeah, and then I just have a lot of different sort of travel
48:30
that I'm going to navigate next year. I think once I get this done and actually need to find a home
48:36
because I've been living out of a suitcase for a really long time. So I need to get a bit of a home
48:41
base. I think that's important to to be able to continue to do my work and be able to travel in
48:46
an art. And there are many places I'd like to return to I'd like to get back to Iraq too and
48:51
see how that is kind of developing in many parts of the world as well. So yeah, I think it's just a
49:00
chill for December and then and then back into the near. You didn't strike me as somebody that
49:04
was just going to sit in a coffee shop for the next like 12 months or something like that. But
49:08
what is the best way for myself and our listeners to support you? So I'm on Instagram and Twitter
49:14
at Holly H L L L I E S M C K A Y. I also have a sub stack, which I tend, you know, I try to sort
49:21
of put my articles and reflections and things and into that. So that is Holly S B K dot dot
49:28
sub stack dot com. So please subscribe. And yeah, and then I just try to sort of post as I as I go.
49:34
So yeah, absolutely. We'll have all that in the show notes. We've talked about a lot today and
49:39
we've talked about a lot, you know, in our last three conversations, but that's all for me. Is
49:42
there anything else you want to get off your chest? That's it. Thank you for having me. And then
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thank you for your listeners for their continued interest in Afghanistan. It's important that
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we, you know, we remember what's happening. And then my heart very much is with the Afghan people
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who are who are going through a lot right now. Sure thing. Holly McKay, thank you so much for
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coming back on undaunted life a man's podcast. Thank you. There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed
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Holly McKay's return appearance to undaunted life a man's podcast. But before we let you go,
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we are going to do a quick resilience boost at undaunted life. Our mission is equipping
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men to push back darkness. And we do that with content like this podcast that helps you forge
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spiritual, mental and physical resilience. So here are the links I've got for you today. I've
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got a link to Holly sub stack, her website, her Instagram, a couple of places where you can buy
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her latest book only cry for the living. Then then also her other two appearances on this podcast,
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episode 188 and 222. All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening to this podcast. We do appreciate
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it. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive review.
50:38
If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info
50:42
at undaunted life. That's I N F O at undaunted life. You can follow us on Instagram and tick
50:47
tock and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate
50:51
to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www dot undaunted dot life. And we also
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want to thank the band August Burns read for allowing us to use their music for our content.
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The music on this podcast is our song cutting the ties, which is off their 10th anniversary
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re recording of their album leveler. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual mental and physical resilience.
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Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
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I find you, you will be revived.