Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Granger Smith, welcome to Oklahoma. You made it. >> It's good to be here. >> I know you've never been to Oklahoma, right? has never really been. It's your Texas guys. That's the thing. When I talk to people from Texas or they live in Texas, they just like they look at Oklahoma like that pnicity little brother. They're just like they don't ever want to talk to him. >> You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying >> that's what you said. That's what you were saying when I was driving you to the hotel last night. So, but we're we're happy to have you. >> But I'll tell you, I uh I came here from Tennessee. >> Yeah. >> Um spent a few days there. And it it's be Tennessee is so beautiful. You I used to live there a long very long time ago. the trees, the hills. But as we were coming in in the plane yesterday and I looked out of the window and I saw Oklahoma. >> If >> Why'd you make this motion? >> Because Because it feels like home. >> I'm serious. We're We are brothers. >> Yeah. >> There's no need to say little or big, but uh I I I thought >> this feels like home. >> Yeah. What's funny is I love Texas. Like, okay, so people in Oklahoma, they get way too much into the U Texas thing, right? And like you know it's and I didn't grow up my family didn't care about sports and all that so I never really got it. Like Texas always just felt like a bigger cockier Oklahoma. Like that's >> I'm an Aggie fan. I went to Texas A&M. So I'm out of all of this argument and I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. >> So we we do need to talk about this. This&M thing keeps coming up. All right. So everyone knows&M like in terms of football they're just not relevant. They haven't won anything since the 1930s. It doesn't really matter. the yell leader stuff, the all-white. And I've had it explained to me. They're like, "No, like I had a guy, you know, he went to&M. His dad went to&M. Grandpa went to&m. Matt Chandler's a big&m guy. Uh I don't even I think he attended there, but he intended to before, you know, the Lord, you know, yanked him into another another uh track or whatever. But to an outsider, right, to me, to a guy that went to the University of Central Oklahoma that just loves watching college football, it's weird. It's the weirdest thing in the world to me." And it's like, >> tell me it's not a Colt. Like explain it to me in terms that I can understand like I'm five years old. Like because >> I love tradition. Like we rode here today to the studio in my grandpa's 1979 Ford truck. The whole reason we have that truck is because of legacy. >> That was my grandpa's truck. Then it was my dad's truck. Now it's my truck. And then it's going to go to James and Eli. Right. Like that's that's the whole deal. >> I just don't get it. It's just strange to me. And so like I want to understand. I am seeking to understand. Help me understand. >> Yeah. Uh I'm I do I too come from this long line of of Aggies. My mom uh grew up is from College Station. Um dad went to&M. >> Um brother, my my youngest brother Parker was was also mascot corporal. I was in E2 as well with Revy the mascot. She was lived with me in my dorm. Um my roommate uh then became a yell leader. So he's still um Kevin's still one of my best friends and he was a yell leader. Grant Castleberry was a yell leader. You know Grant Castleberry, pastor out in in in North Carolina. He was a yell leader as well. Okay. >> So, these these aren't guys um I guess I make that point to say these aren't like the nerds of the of the university that just are are super weird and they wear white uniforms, you know, like the these guys um are elected for being the alphas, the the guys that everyone could go to if they have a problem. These are the guys that are, you know, the the the familiar faces that you want to be around. >> Okay, >> they're the cool guys. >> Okay, then. >> But but here's here's the uh here's the story. Um before the 1970s for the 60s&M was an all male school military academy. Um in the in the 60s the late60s it became um integrated with women and so then be going into the military became an option at that point. Going contract became became an option. It still is to this day. Okay. >> Guys in the core after their sophomore year they decide if they're going contract or not >> or if they're going DNC which means drill and ceremony. It's just for the discipline, just for the camaraderie, just for um the resume to the authority, the you know, the structure of the core. >> Yeah. >> But before that, um it was all men and they had a football team and they would the train would literally come through College Station from Baylor and drop off all the girls for so they could have dates for the football game. So the girls would get off. A lot of guys got married that way. They were just like finding girls coming off the off the train. So the the the what happened was at at some point I I can't remember the year, but the girls get off and they they the guys go up and they find dates and they take them to the football game and the girls are utterly bored with football. They're just sitting there, you know, in in the old Kyle Field just looking going, "This is horrible. Why are you guys watching these dudes uh you know, tackle each other in the mud? Why is this fun?" So, the seniors told the freshmen, "Go, I want you to go and um take janitor outfits and go down there and entertain the girls. Like, give them something to do. Like, teach them about football. Like, teach them how to yell cuz this we we want to watch the game and we can't keep entertaining our dates." So the freshman go down there and they take Janer uniforms, five of them, and they go out there and they just start teaching the girls like, "Yell, like it's third down, you know, we need to we need to be yelling." And the girls were like enamored by this. They loved it. They just thought these this is the cutest thing ever. They they like fell in love with these guys. And the seniors said, >> "Hang on, >> hang on a second." >> So then the juniors and seniors are like, "Hey, maybe we should we should get some we should be the guys, not the freshman." So then it became the Yale leaders. >> Okay. So as it So as it sits today, like it's one of the most confusing things about Texas A&M and I was talking about this with David Pollock when we were doing our college football preview show. We recorded that yesterday, but it was like they're always seemingly getting a top 10 recruiting class, but it's like for whatever reason, like it just never gets they never get the job done. They're not winning the conference. They're they're never winning a national title seemingly again relevance-wise. >> But like the thing I love about it, so it's the same thing somehow that I hate about the Cubs fans to where it's just like, okay, y'all are relevant once a century, but then you you just you're so proud. You're so proud of your your Cubbies even though you're terrible for the most part, but it's just like the the pride that people have in it. It's it's just an odd thing. And you could really extrapolate that out to any university, but I don't know from a tradition standpoint that anybody's carrying it so fervently as&m. Like I I'd be happy to hear another argument, but it's just like it just seems like something that people are like it's like your all-encompassing identity whenever you're an Aggie. >> College Station is a small town, it even though it's getting a lot bigger, like 80,000 students now. But >> I remember shipping something to Texas&M and they're like, "Which zip code?" I'm like, "What are you talking about?" They're like, "Yeah, the campus is that big." it still feels small, you know, it's it's it's not on an interstate. Um, and I think people there there's just a family feeling to it. Like when I lost my dad in 2014, so today I watch Aggie football and I just think, >> ah, dad dad would have loved to have seen this. There's that there's there's a familial connection to Aggie football and and the campus. I think that's I think it's part of what it is. >> Yeah. I mean, so I I know you and I both like kind of see family. So I didn't I didn't I wasn't in a family that had like traditions, right? So there's not when I if you think about it like if you don't have traditions, do you have an identity? Right? Because it's like what I do with my sons is I try not to be like James don't do that. Eli don't do that. It's hey Thompson's do this. Hey Thompsons don't do that. Like so good example little Eli's four years old. I get a I look at my phone and it's his school calling and I'm like crap, you know? And so I'm like I'm thinking, you know, he trusted a fart and shouldn't have, you know, it's one of those situations. He's four. And so I answer the phone. It's like, "Hello, Mr. Thompson. I've got Eli in the office. Um, he took a block and he hit a friend." And, you know, she's explaining the whole situation. So essentially what happened, a little girl, little, you know, I won't say her name, but a little girl came up, took a block from his little block station. He snatches the block back from her, bops her in the head with it, right? Cuz he was mad that she took it. >> And so I'm like, "Can you uh give the phone to Eli?" She's like, "Oh, oh, okay." Um, and so I'm like, "Hey, buddy. Hey, Dad. Uh, hey buddy, what happened?" I hit Harper with a block. I'm like, "Do Thompsons hit girls?" No. What do Thompsons do with girls? We protect them. Hey, did you protect your friend when you did that? No. Hey, buddy. What do you think you should do? Apologize to who? Says the friend's name. Who else says his teacher's names? So, I could have just piled on the punishment >> and, you know, gotten after him, but there's no identity connection there because I don't have this long list of Thompson men that were good at this. Hey, Thompson men are engineers and we we do this or hey, Thompson men went to Oklahoma State University or Thompson men, you know, are preachers or whatever the thing is. There's no identity of what a Thompson is. And so my job as dad is to either keep the status quo going and then Eli and James can just kind of figure it out on their own or provide some structure around that. Like here are Thompson family values. Here's how the Thompsons, you know, spread the love of Christ. Here's how Thompsons act in public. Here's the things we do. Here's the things we don't do. We stand ready to provide, but we also stand ready to protect and we'll do everything it takes to make that happen. So that's the one of the things I'm almost jealous of when [clears throat] people have like one of my one of my buddies Josh who went to&M. He's got like his grandpa's class ring. >> You know what I mean? Like that that's the part that I think is is pretty awesome when you think legacy. >> So let's let's back up for a second though. I'm wondering why that matters to you. >> Why legacy matters. >> Yeah. I'm I'm wondering why identity matters to you. And and why why do Thompsons uh not hit girls? Why? >> Yeah. Whenever if you're going to inculcate values into a kid, you do it anecdotally. You do it situationally, right? That teaches you the overall thing. But the reason why we don't hit women is because creation order, Eve was taken from from Adam's side, not as head. So that there she's above him, not from his feet. That's so she's subservient. She's a helpmate made fit for him. >> Okay? >> And we're to uh protect those that are weaker than us. Those are image bearsers of God that we must stand ready to protect. And if they are the weaker vessel, if they are weaker physically given, you know, all things being equal, then it is incumbent upon them to be protector providers. And in order to do that, you can't be the ones that's harming them. You can't be the one that's personally harming the image bearer. >> Okay? So then that's your lineage. >> Yeah. >> So that's your why. That's your reason. [clears throat] >> So maybe it skipped maybe it skipped your dad. Maybe it skipped your grandpa. But that doesn't affect your lineage. Your identity is in Christ. And what God says is right. God says this, therefore Thompson's do this. >> Yeah. And and again, you know how hard that is when you kind of feel like you're the first. When I live lived in New York back in the day, I had a >> cont. The key was feel. You said feel. >> That's the key. Yeah. >> You said that. You know how hard it is when you feel like, >> right? >> And I say to that, I say yes. Amen. >> Yeah. >> But do our feelings dictate what truth is? >> No. Of course not. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Amen. And and I could give a crap less about your feelings and intentions. [laughter] I like your I want to know your behavior like and how you out. >> Yeah. That flows from our I didn't >> Yeah. Keep going. Sorry. >> No, you're good. When I lived in New York City, I felt like I was the only Christian there. I'm in this city of five burrows and millions of people. And when you bumped into another Christian, it was like, "Oh my gosh, I found the other one." >> And so, in a way, I feel like a first generation Christian because, you know, we were talking about this in the truck. You know, I've talked about country music theology. That's like the the thing that I've, you know, thought about a lot to where it's like, okay, you're born on the precious red clay of Oklahoma. You know, someone in your family lineage was a pastor at some point. You were dipped in water as a child. You didn't know why, but you know, you got to go to Carl Jr. afterwards. >> Um, and you know, you're patriotic. You love America. You you love baseball. You know, when you vote, you vote Republican. And whenever you listen to music, it's '90s country, and God likes all that stuff. So, you get to go to heaven when you die. And it's like those I mean, those are all good things, fun things. They're very, you know, consequential to a particular segment of culture that you're born into, which we talked about last night as well. >> But it's like those things can't like sustain you that there's nothing there's nothing faith driven there. Knowing the name of Jesus, even knowing what Jesus purportedly did, right? Dying for our sins. Being able to regurgitate that does not mean that you yourself have pushu transferred your faith into that reality for your life. >> Yeah. And so that's where I feel that pressure almost as like a first generation Thompson who actually took that seriously could not just they could just say it right I oh I can repeat things that I heard in church but no no I believe that for me and this is how it has changed my life this is why I evangelize and this is why I behave in the way that I behave um not that the whole point is behavioral modification obviously but that you know that is part of the fruit that someone could look at your life and be like no there's fruit of gospel repentance there and I mean as a dad you feel that pressure big time. >> Yeah. Elijah said the same thing go to God. I'm the only one. >> And God said, "Go back into that city. I have 7,000 there." >> That's right. He also told Elijah, "Hey, man, take a nap and have some food. Like, you're not going to die. Like, just just relax." Yeah, that's a that's a that's a good good word for that. Well, and also one of the things obviously if we're going to talk about you and your story and legacy, one of the big reasons why people even know your name and how it's, you know, oh, I I can I can attach that to something is because of your music career. And so, um, I'm always curious when someone does something that's so seemingly unique because if you have an ear for music or, you know, a knack for songwriting or you just pick up an instrument really quickly, it seems like old hat to you. It's like someone that's fast. They don't think about how fast they are. They're like, "I'm just fast." Whereas someone that's slow looks at the fast person like, "Oh my gosh, like that's incredible. Look how fast they're going." I'm curious for you what your even what your relationship with with music was like growing up because for some people it's a slog, but for the most part when I'm when I run into people that did the singer songwriter thing, it was just it was just part of like the air they breathe growing up. So I'm just curious what that was like for you. >> Yeah, you know, music was always in the family. It was always in the house. Um, but I don't I wouldn't necessar necessarily say we were a musical family, you know, like nobody else played an instrument in any of the extended family. My grandma um played guitar a little bit, both grandmas, one played a little bit and the other one tried and gave up. The one that tried and gave up ended up um giving the guitar to us. There was three brothers in the house, me being the oldest, and so that guitar was in my closet. M >> I always liked writing. I've always loved writing. Um whether that's short stories or poetry. I was always like entering contest in elementary school like, "Oh, there's a poetry contest. This will be fun." Sometimes I would uh I would enter two or three different entries under different names, thinking maybe they wouldn't know. [laughter] >> Good coverage. Yeah, I might get three ribbons out of my try to try to get the best deal out of this. But um it wasn't until 14 years old there was a girl I thought was really cute and she liked another guy who played guitar. >> Ah that'll do it. >> And I thought I got to I I want to be that. Like I want to differentiate myself. >> Yeah. I got to differentiate. And so I came home and I remember there was a guitar in the closet. I pulled it out and under the guitar in the case was a little book that that had chords and dots on fretboards on where to put your fingers, how to make chords. >> And I just sat there with that page open looking at the the dots and lining up my fingers. >> And I began kind of became obsessed with this. I I loved it. I think that's the key to what you're saying. I I I it's not like I picked up the guitar and was just some kind of virtuoso just amazing. I just thought I love this and anything we love we will put time and effort into. And I just kept going. Um I started to love the guitar so much I forgot all about the girl and you know the the reason it started and shortly after that started singing to the songs that I was playing on a guitar badly. Uh it I'm sure it wasn't good but I would go I would go to my parents and be like hey there's here's a song and there my parents were just like where did where's this come from? What is this? you know, >> like your own song or you were mimicking something else you heard somewhere. >> Yeah, I think first it started with mimicking like paring other songs I heard on the radio. Um, and the first song I ever learned was Dallas by Alan Jackson. That was because it was three chords and it's super easy >> and learned that song and then more and then I started writing shortly after that. >> Okay. So Allan Allen Jackson, who are those other people? So because this would have been I mean what would have been >> 14 93 94. Okay. Yeah. So, >> you're right in the thick of it right there. And so, but but what's funny about when you ask people that came up in the '90s country era, when you ask them who they listen to, >> you you will get some very different answers cuz there's the ones that everybody knows, like the ones that sold the most records, had the big biggest concerts, but then it's like there's a big difference between a Gar Brooks person and a George Ray person. There just is. Like >> a Vince Gil guy versus a Clint Black guy. And so like who were the the artists that I guess that you were more like kind of drawn to their style or their core progressions or their their storytelling? >> Yeah, it was it was the you know you're naming it was those Texas Oklahoma guys plus a few Georgia guys, but it was it was Mark Chestnut, Tracy Lawrence, Allan Jackson, um Gar Brooks certainly George Strait certainly. Um, and then there was like the Doug Supernov and like Doug Stones and Sammy Kershaws that um I I really love that era. Diamond Rio. I really love that era. Yeah. >> Well, and so so those that's kind of the people that are that are teaching you. You're kind of learning from them. >> But how many people own guitars and like play on them a little bit here or there or did so growing up like an innumerable amount of people, right? But like at some point there had to been like this crossover point where it's like no no no like I think I might be good at this. Like and then there's different kinds of good. You're good at playing uh the same chords that George Strait's playing. And then there's good like no no I'm going to write stuff in my own way. It may sound like that but it's going to be my own way. I'm going to tell my own stories cuz that's the thing about country music cuz I I went through a phase for a long time where I just hated country music because it was mainly like kind of more radio type stuff and like the whole like red dirt and tractors thing. I was like I just don't get it. But then you get into like a cultter wall or you know people that are telling stories, right? And you're just like >> oh my gosh there's so much here even if it sounds simple. And then there yeah you got to have some fun. You got to listen to some Reba. You got to listen to you know some some Gar Brooks. Yeah. I mean you got to have some fun as well. But for you, where was that crossover point where you're like, "No, no, no. I think there's something here." >> I don't know. I I was thinking as you were talking about if I ever thought I was good. I don't know. I I was stubborn. I just kept going. I just loved it. I kept going. >> And so there were these oper, you know, picture um 50 old people with popcorn and diet coke and an old theater in some downtown square of an old, you know, Texas town. and they were there everywhere. They might still be, I'm not sure, but I would go out there and I would I would audition usually on like a um the end of a show. They would hold open auditions. >> And I would go out there and >> they would let you sing two songs and you or with the house band. You you sing with the band and you go, you know, that out of the list of very common songs. And I just I loved it, man. I don't know if I ever wow. I just thought I can't wait to book the next one. >> And there I know there were people that were doing that about my age in that era that were I mean worlds better than me. >> Like there there were people um I remember Lean Rimes was one of them. She was coming up in the same time. But there were people that you would just hear them and you just say this this is the greatest singer of all time. I mean, she popped when she was like 14 or 15. The joke was it's like she was like 15 for like eight years there for a while because she just kept getting awards and all that, but just her voice was unbelievable. >> That's that's great that you you recognize that cuz imagine this this is my life. I would go to and they would do like competitions, you know. >> Yeah. >> So, I'd go to these competitions or just hang out and and go to these shows and Lean Rimes was there and I'm there. >> Like, who are people going to remember when they walk out? Is it Granger Smith? >> Yeah. It's going to It's going to be the 15-year-old girl that's got toys that just came right down the middle and just did >> Dallas Factor suitcase drove off, you know, like just like the most normal like belt buckle, cowboy hat, starch jeans, just like pitch down the middle, like slow pitch down the middle. That was me. No one remembered me. I didn't strike anybody out. No home runs. I was just the guy like, "Yeah, oh that guy, that was nice. that that's a nice young man, you know, and >> uh and so I think what happened was though I I think going back to I loved it. That's a it's a good theme. It's a it becomes theological, but I just never stopped. >> And so all those people that were so good in to some level, including Leon Rimes, they just eventually stopped. Like life caught up with them. >> Yeah. >> And I just kept going. I was stubborn enough to go, I don't think I'm going to get a real job. I think I'm just going to do this. [laughter] >> What >> for a long time? You're exactly right because Lean Rimes is one of those stories of she is a what was but also a what could have been, right? Because when you when you're talking about the women in the history of of country music and you're you're talking about that list, those names, typically Leanne Rimes is not on there. But when she's, you know, she's got more awards than fingers and she's not even able to legally drive yet. >> And you're just thinking she's going to be the biggest thing of all all time because when you get into that list of Reeba and Martina McBride and then you got the Juds and even Modern, look, you look at a Carrie Underwood, you look at the trajectory of like someone like Ella Langley and then you're trying to like, okay, what is their going to their career going to span? What's it going to be like? Are is their voice going to be able to hold up? Like those types of things. and then she just kind of like went off into obscurity and then you know had some you know some personal issues and some different things where you say kind of life caught up with her. That's the difference between the kid that was so physically gifted in high school that they didn't have to try hard, they didn't have to practice hard versus the kid that was not as physically gifted that just said, "I'm not going to quit." And if this comes down to who puts in more effort, I'm going to bury your entire family. And it's like having that that mindset. And so it seemed you like you had that kind of dogged mindset. >> But same thing, Granger, there are people that have the dogged mindset that just suck, right? That I mean, look at look at every American Idol the first couple of weeks of that show. It's people that fervently believe that they have talent because they have no one in their family that loves them that tells them please don't go on national, you know, television and, you know, embarrass yourself so we don't have to answer for it. >> But they try hard, man. They really do. >> They practice. They they do put in the work, right? They just don't have it, whatever that is, right? And so it's one thing to, you know, almost diminish your accomplishments, be like, "Oh, I'm this guy that never quit." But at some point, you're undeniable. >> Well, it Yeah, I think about that, too. And it's kind of like I think of talent is kind of like the ticket. You got to have the ticket. [clears throat] You got to have the talent. You got to have the the minimum bar of talent to get into the arena. >> And that's the gift. >> But once you're in there, you said it earlier. Aren't there millions of people with a talent? And even in my time in Nashville and coming up through my 20s, I still just like the opera days, I met guys that I thought, "This is next Keith Whitley. Like this guy's unbelievable." I would call I would call friends and be like, "Hey, remember this name? this guy's going to be one of the biggest stars ever. And then >> they just either decide they they can't or they break up with a girlfriend and they spin out or they >> get in alcohol, drugs, >> and they just or or probably most likely they just get a job offer to work at some factory and they make more money than they ever would in an empty bar. >> Yeah. >> And you just never hear from them again. They go, "You know what? I was going to I need to support my wife and kids and need to make like a decent living. This is I can't keep doing this childish music thing. >> Yeah. They're just done with the grind. And >> well, that's part of the thing about the grind is you don't know if it's going to go anywhere. >> True. >> Because like right now, like we're both we both have podcasts and do that do that whole thing. There's somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 and a half million podcasts out there. That's that number is growing. That was the last time I looked it up. So, it's it's way more now because the barrier to entry to podcast is a [clears throat] $50 snowball mic on Amazon and an internet connection, right? That's how I started. But when I started this 9 years ago, there was no illusions that anyone would ever listen to it. I [clears throat] just wanted to get some thoughts and philosophies out there as it pertained to masculine Christianity. And I didn't want to write stuff cuz writing was boring and took too long. Like I wanted to put some notes on a sheet of paper and talk. And so that's the podcast medium. But now you have people that are like, "Oh, they're looking at Joe Rogan. They're looking at Sean Ryan. They're looking at Tucker Carlson. They're looking at, you know, anyone that has this enormous podcast and they're like, "Well, I can just do that." And so they try to grind in that direction, but 6 months goes by and they're not a millionaire yet. And they're like, "This is way harder than I thought. I have to stare at a blank screen and turn it into an hour's worth of interesting content, perhaps by myself, not able to lean on the person I'm talking to, and then just do that again over and over and over at infin item before anyone will ever pay attention. And they may never." And so that's why I tell people getting into the podcast game, I'm like, "Do you love this? Do you have a unique voice? Do you feel like God's even calling you to to talk to this specific audience? Because it sounds like you're going to run out of stuff to say, right? There's only so much you can say about, you know, you you're a guy and you're in shape and so you're going to do a podcast about how Christians should be fit. I was like, "All right, well, after that 11 episode run, what are you going to talk about next?" >> Like, it's going to get a lot more difficult. And the same thing kind of in the music side is you have people that like kind of reality will hit them in the face at some point and it's like yeah we just had our second kid and I'm I'm traveling around making 50 bucks a night in these dive bars. And so again for you that's not your story. You you you know stuck it out right? You you didn't quit but you had a big crossover at some point. Like at some point it's like no no this is my career now. and not like career like I'm dedicated to it, but it's like no, we're making money. Like we we're going on tour, people know who we are. Like when did that happen? Like how did how did all that go down? >> Yeah. Yeah. To your point, I I used to test I guess I could say testuh younger guys that would ask for advice on tour and they would say and I would ask them the test is what's your what's your backup plan? Like what are you what are you going to do? >> Yeah. And and the only acceptable answer was this is all I'm going to do. >> Yeah, I don't have a parachute, baby. >> Either either I'm on a street corner with a guitar case opening for tips or I'm in arenas, but I love this. This is all I want to do. And I would say, okay, then you're then you're ready. >> You're worth investing in. >> But but usually they would say like, well, you know, dad dad's company's always there. So by the time I hit 30, you know, if things haven't really popped off or if I don't have a record deal, dad said I could work for the company. And then I would go, go work for dad now. Yeah. >> Go work for dad right now. >> It's a much better. >> How would they react when you'd say that? Cuz they were not expecting that answer. >> No. No. I mean, I was never good for sugar sugar coating things, but but um >> yeah, we'll get into the new book here in a second, don't worry. But [laughter] >> but yeah, it's the truth. I mean um your your life will be a lot better off with dad if that's what you want to do. If that if that you think that's the parachute, take it. >> Yeah. >> Jump out of the plane now with this parachute >> or go down with this airplane. >> But but either way, um life in the in the music industry is is going to tear you up if if you're not fortified by the a resilience of love for it where you're just like, I love this, man. I'm I'm not I'm not uh I'm not my emotions aren't dictated by at what level I'm doing this. for me um it there were there were phases there were definitely I look back there were like little nitrous burst you know through throughout the career >> um the first one came >> um I I I got a publishing deal in Nashville when I was 20 and was that for moved there >> writing or >> for writing songs >> okay >> that happened because to our previous conversation in the in the core at&m I could go to a bar and play music and I had about 120 people guaranteed because I had 60 people from the outfit that would come plus their dates. >> So the, you know, the bar owners are like, "You got to get this Granger Smith guy. Great. >> He's going to guarantee 100 people are coming into your bar." So it didn't it didn't matter how good I was or not. But um but Nashville got word of this guy that was playing these bars and and a lot of people were packing in there and Nashville works in that way where they work on buzz. >> Yeah. And then when when something's buzzing, the other companies start kind of hovering around what's buzzing. So that so then they could because they don't want to be left out. They want to be able to make the offer to the guy that that your competitor's looking at right now. >> So the at one point there was like three three publishing companies that flew in for the same show and they were looking at each other like, "Oh, you're here, too. >> Who's going to make a move? Who's going to make a move?" Yeah. >> It's hilarious looking back. >> And you knew that at the time. You knew they were there. Okay. That's pressure though. But that's good. Um, so I ended up choosing the guy I like the most, which who was representing EMI, signed with EMI, moved there, and wrote songs for four years there. Kind of learned the craft, co-wrote with a lot of lot of older guys. Um, learned the system, was playing Broadway, the bars on downtown Nashville. It was like a horrible time of my life because it was just all covers, 4 hours, no breaks, um, requests only, tips only. just grew to hate it, grew resentful of it. And that whole scene, I was just a parrot, you know, was just longing to take some of the songs I had written and play them >> and like go have freedom. So, I would start dreaming of Texas again, dreaming of being back home and and what would that freedom be like? Um, so it in April of 2004, I went to my publisher and I said, "I think I want to move back." and he said, "We'll still support you if you start a band. Give give us your word. You'll start a band and play." I was like, "Yeah, yeah, of course." I moved back and stayed on the couch at my uncle's house in College Station and immediately started hosting an open mic night and started picking up, you know, whatever I could. Found a band, put together some guys that I liked. Um, we put out a little album based on demos I had made in Nashville. played those songs, but no one cared. No one came. No one listened. Um I we were having fun. It was a great a great time in my life looking back. Um I loved those guys. They were a little bit older than me, so I learned a lot from them. We were having so much fun putting together set list, but nothing was happening. There was no money really. It was just But I didn't really need money either because I was living on a couch. My bills were so low. So what I was making at these, you know, the $20 here, $50 here was enough. Um, but it wasn't until 2006, so you know, two years go by. 2006, I wrote a song about Texas A&M, which is funny how this is this cover. You did this. >> Yeah, it's my fault. And that was this was not on purpose. So, >> you didn't write any of this down. This is not this is not part of your your notes. But, uh, yeah, I wrote a song about Texas&M called We Believe Maroon. You know, just highlighting what you were saying, like the cultishuh mentality. >> It's definitely a cult. you confirmed it. >> And uh that that that was hilarious for me because I was driving back. I think we were in Louisiana playing a show and I was driving back to a you know yet another show that no one came to just thinking why why do I go to these places and I'm I'm driving past the the people that I actually know. I I'm not serving them at all. I'm not writing anything for them. >> Yeah. Um, so I I I went home and I wrote this song called We Bleed Maroon and I I had talked to a an artist friend that lived in that in College Station. Like he was literally a painter for the university and he was telling me about giving back to the community and how much how much he gives back to the community and how much he's rewarded for that. So I thought, "Huh, okay, cool." And he said and I said, "Do you have an example of how to do that?" And he goes, "Yeah, there's he" He said, "I was getting a sandwich the other day in a cafe and there's a there's like a tip jar that said, "Help Mandy walk. It's a girl got in a car accident, you know, give some money so she could walk across the stage for graduation." He's like, "Call them and see if you can do like a benefit concert." >> Like, cool, good idea. That makes me feel good. I called the number on the tip jar and they never returned my call. >> Oh, come on. >> You know, like that's who I was. >> Yeah. >> Like no one would even return my call, not even for a free concert. So, so I took this song and I just thought, "Okay, then I'll I'll send it to the school and I'll say,"Hey, here's a song for you. Aggie muster's coming up in April." You know, like where they recognize the fallen soldiers and fallen Aggies before April 21st. So, I sent it to them like, "Here's here's something maybe you could use." No one replied. No reply on email. No return phone call. I just thought this is crazy, man. I I can't give my art away. >> Yeah. And then that next day, I was driving on the road and it came on the radio. That song, that version came on the radio. And I was confused and shocked and excited all at the same time. And I drove to the radio station. It wasn't that. It's a small town. And they were like, "Yeah, somebody from the muster committee at&m sent this to us and thought we I was [laughter] like, what? They didn't they didn't tell me. >> Someone just sent me an email. Like, come on." >> Yeah. And I said, "Well, hold up. I could record. [clears throat] This was just me and a guitar. I could go with the band and I could give you a full recording. So I I called the band and we made a a recording. And then that song ended up in in that era, 2006, I think it was six, >> before Spotify, really before streaming, >> really before even YouTube was a thing. Yeah. >> Um we were sending physical mailing physical copies of CDs. Yep. and we were giving them out and sending them out, selling them as fast as as I could have them printed. And then they started playing it at the Jumbotron at the football games. >> So that that was able to give me just enough break to fund the next album cuz it's expensive to mix and master and all this stuff. So, it was just enough where I could like I rented a I was able to rent a house with my brother and buy groceries and start to work on a new album. So, that that was the first time, you know, to your to your question what happened. Um, and so there were there were different moments like that, but that was the first time I was like, "Oh, >> we we could do that. We could like make a living doing this." >> And you you had enough money to fund like an EP or like a full LP, like full >> It was a full LP. Um, but I recorded it in my in my house, so it's not as expensive as it sounds. I recorded everything in my house. >> Yeah. >> But you're right. Whenever you get into the mixing, uh, all the different post-production things, like, it's not >> it's [clears throat] not just where you're doing it and whether there's good acoustics in the room, that does play a part, but there there's a whole lot to it. >> Even printing 500 CDs cost a lot of money. >> And again, I mean, just think about it like you like if you have a store where you sell shirts and hats, right? Like for the most part, you're having to buy all those up front and you like the design. Does anybody else like the design? Like, you know, are we just going to be sitting on this stock? Are we going to have to be selling it for pennies on the dollar at some point down the road? You don't know that whenever you're whenever you're printing this again before the streaming revolution and you know, we probably won't even have time to talk about that and how that's really changed music. So, you you get you get that buffer. >> Mhm. >> Right. And, you know, I still want to make sure we have we have time to really cover the new book. So, let's just do kind of a quick fly over from Die Bars in Texas, old little old operies in Texas >> to No, I I am a professional like country music singer, songwriter, artist, >> but as as you know, when as you know, Drew Parker was here and he kind of explained the whole background of like what's the difference between a writer and a performer, the the different contracts, who gets what from each piece. Look at a guy like Chris Stapleton. Like he was a legend in Nashville before he released his first album just as a songwriter. He wrote songs for everybody. Like he >> he was with me in those first days. We he was we were always together. >> So would this have been would this have been the uh Steel Drivers days or would this have even before this was like no beard, short buzzcut, glasses? >> Okay. Well, [laughter] and so so that's kind of like the behind the scenes look on Nashville and all those types of things. But at some point, and I doubt it was because someone at some agency or told you this, but you're like, "No, I'm I'm just here to stay now. I It's not just my doggedness that's I'm going to keep writing songs and I'm going to keep going." But it's like, "No, we're going on tour. We're on the radio nationally and country radio is enormous. Enormous back then and it's still big now." Like, what was that point where you're like, "Okay, cuz there are people that, you know, they release that first album and then they don't even get a sophomore slump. They just they're off into obscurity for a million different reasons. They just didn't hit in the way they needed to to make it a sustainable career. >> Yeah. We were just we were super low overhead. >> Yeah. >> Um we were traveling a suburban in a trailer. Um the the scene back then I don't I don't I honestly don't know the scene that well right now. Texas, Oklahoma. Yeah. >> Like the red dirt scene that they say, but it was it was good. I mean we could we could make um $700 or $800 a night at like a dance hall. >> Mhm. even if no one knew us. And so you take that, you okay, two 200 bucks. We get 200 bucks, we put some fuel in the, you know, sell a t-shirt or two, put some fuel in the Suburban, and do that three times, $500 or $600 a week. We could we could live on this. I mean, it it wasn't um >> it it wasn't sustainable long term, but we just I just was stubborn enough to believe I'll just keep doing this. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. But to answer your question, finally, the first the first um boom we really saw because we saw after Weeble Bleed Maroon little Texas regional radio and Oklahoma radio success, but that really does nothing. It really did as far as like moving a career. >> Got you further down the road, but it didn't, you know, you weren't on the superighway yet. >> Yeah. Um so we were putting out a new album yet again. It's two albums from We Bleed Maroon and looking for ways to promote it now. Now YouTube is a really big deal and so we were making these videos of the week. It was like the original vlogging, you know. >> Yeah. >> Era 2010 >> and we were 910. We were making these vlogs and and we saw a little bit of success there and I had some characters on YouTube that I had created that we that were kind of funny. We saw some of the some of these things working and Tyler, my brother, he said, "Hey, um I want to do another one of these characters as we're promoting the record and I wanted his name to be Earl Dibbles Jr. and I want him I want his voice to be that guy cuz I the guy in the suburban where you talk that voice you do all the time. Do that." I was like, "Sure, Earl Dibbles." And he was like, "Yeah." Um, I I've got a I played football with a kid named Dibbles. I love the name Earl and it's got to be a junior. And I was like, "Sure." So, I grabbed I grabbed some overalls in my closet, a white tank top, some Redwing boots, trucker cap from dad, um, and went out. We went out. This is where mom and dad live. And, and there's this old abandoned house out there. just sat on the porch and just they we set up a camera. Both brothers, Tyler and Parker, set up a camera and just rolled >> and I was just talking, you know, like making up stuff. I wake up, put a good dip in, crack a cold one, I get dressed. >> People don't think I got People don't think I got a tough schedule, but I do. I got a tough schedule. And just talking about things I do, like I fix a tree, I drive a truck. I fish for cats and bass. I I sit on logs. like just randomly. So after that then I went and acted out what I remembered that I said. >> Mhm. >> Part of that was um I was shooting the gun and Tyler said um hey he you could we have a we still have footage of this behind the camera. He's like hold it hold it above your head and and and yell ye like a old Texas cattle call. Yeah. Like >> and so I did it. I go ye yeah. And then there was another cut and I just said yei just twice. >> Yeah. >> And then when I went back to edit it that night, I put it all together. I used the two ye it didn't really think I didn't think anything think anything of it. But we put it on YouTube >> and it just started going faster than anything we've done, right? It started getting views and we started I remember that first night it had 25,000 which was like anything. We're like, man, I got 25,000 and the next day to like 50 and then 60 and then, you know, was at a million soon and just couldn't believe it. Um, so that then people started coming to our shows that, you know, the the same shows we were doing in the Suburban and the van and then they were like wanting to see this old guy and he wasn't part of the show. And one guy came up and changed everything cuz he said after the show he goes, "Man, you're a funny guy." And I was like, "Thanks." And he goes, "But I don't see that in your show." I was like, "Oh, >> yeah, >> he's right." So, so I knew Earl needs a song. >> Yeah. >> Like Earl can't just be sitting on the porch. He needs a song. So, I wrote the country boy song with Tyler again. And it was just basically the lyrics from [laughter] the stupid things he does on the porch. I mean, ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. And went and shot a music video similar to the first one. We weren't reinventing anything. We just did what we did the first time and but made music and brought the band in. >> Brought some friends in. >> Yeah. You know, and recorded it in my house like we always did and then put that music video. Then that started going twice as fast virally than the the first one. Added immediately added it to the show and immediately things everyone started coming. >> Hey guys, real quick. So pretty much everywhere you look right now, all anyone in the fitness and wellness world wants to talk about is peptides. And in the last few years, the demand and the market for peptides has gone through the roof. And here's the thing, most people don't really know anything about peptides. They just know that a lot of people they know are on them and are having great results. And here are a few reality checks as it pertains to peptides. One, you need to know what they are and how they can help you. Two, not all peptides and peptide companies are reliable and safe. And third, you need a reputable company that will educate you and help you find the peptides that are right for you. 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Want to see how certain peptides can help you with sleep, cognitive performance, immune support, sexual health, longevity, and other things? Victrix can help with that, too. And guys, right now, all Undunted Lifers listening to this can go to www.victwwellness.com/kyle to get a free consultation with one of Victrix's wellness coaches. That's v ic t r i xwwellness.com/kyle. The link will be in the show notes. Guys, stop listening to random people on social media that don't know what they're talking about. Let my friends at victrixswwellness guide you. Again, go to victrixwellness.com/kyle. That's victrixwellness.com/kyle. So, I'm curious for that because, you know, there's all kinds of people that have like a character. I'm trying to think. Oh. Uh, uh, Andrew Dice Clay, you know, really famous, uh, comedian, but it was he created a character and so he became Dice. Like that was his character. You think about Larry the Cable Guy. >> Yeah. >> His [clears throat] name isn't Larry the Cable Guy, right? Like that that's not who he was, but he creates this character and then at some point, I mean, I, you know, watched a documentary with Hulk Hogan recently. Like that's Terry Bola, >> but he's he's remembered as Hulk Hogan, right? Nobody wants to talk to Terry. They want to talk to the to Hulk, right? [clears throat] For you, did you have any like, you know, we've already talked about identity and all those types of things. It's like you're not Earl Dibbles Jr., right? You're Granger Smith. And [clears throat] so, was there ever a time to where you're just like there was that waring faction of like I just want to play songs as Granger? Like, I don't want to be a goofball on stage, you know, in a tank top with a dip in. I I just want to play these songs that I care about that I've like given my heart to and my my artistic effort and energy to and all these people want to see is this like country doofus and it's just kind of like it's fun right it you know it's it's fun for everybody it's not appropriate for everybody but it's fun for everybody like did you ever have kind of that waring like maybe almost like who am I right because I'm sure you got people yelling at [clears throat] YOU IN PUBLIC LIKE EARL GET ON OVER HERE AND you're like I'm not Earl I'm but if you're Ric Flair if you're Hulk Hogan if you're one of those guys like you're you're not your name. You're whoever the character is. >> I'll be totally honest. I never struggled with that. >> You were able to switch? >> I never struggled with that. I loved Earl then. I still love Earl now. Um we were we were from the very beginning very aware that we we want two we want two different lanes here. We want Granger and Earl. So like Tyler, who's I keep mentioning his name, is my middle brother. He's been my manager since 2008. Still is today. Um but we would bill it. I mean, like, [clears throat] you should have Tyler on this podcast. He's better. He's better than both of those. And Parker's better than me, too. >> Parker's now the biggest gun tuber in the world. My youngest brother. We should bring y life. >> Anyway, >> uh Tyler started billing the shows as Granger Smith featuring Earl Dibbles Jr. >> because for a few reasons, but one, it took up so many letters it would fill an entire marquee. So, they couldn't put anything else. >> Yeah, [laughter] they the opening acts hated you. If you do a concert poster, it fills up, you know, the most letters. Granger Smith featuring Earl Dibbles Jr. and every concert had to be built that way. Not with or not W/ Earl Dibbles >> or not with opening act or special guest. It was none of that. It was featuring meaning this isn't an opening act. This isn't a special guest. This is this is the show, this part of it. So, um, what it allowed us to do is it allowed us to have we could be serious with the with Granger songs and we could sing about, um, heartbreak or soldiers in Iraq or or um a a a chilling, you know, country song. And then we could have Earl Dibbles that was basically country metal. >> Yeah. and we can come out with fire and smoke and cryo and throw things and we could um I mean it it turned into insanity. >> Well, it was like a pressure relief valve for the audience. >> So, we put them both together. So, we and and a lot of other bands um dreaded having us on the bill. I I I I don't I mean I love so so many of those guys. I don't think they looked at it like animosity against us, but they're just like, "Ah, we got to play with these guys." >> Because we had no limits. We had no box we had to be in. We can go super tender and soft like acoustic on a stool and then, you know, 30 minutes later there's fire shooting up and like the walls are falling in and Earl Dibbles Jr.'s running out with an waving an American flag with like Levi Garrett in both cheeks double fisting, you know, two beers, smashing them like, you know, Austin. >> Yeah. >> Um and so we had such a wide dynamic and then soon um right after that we got number one song in the world with on the Granger side with backro song. So it was working. We had there one was never overshadowing the other. In fact, they worked together and we saw in our audience, we we would see like these really rough redneck guys and then we'd see like these like college frat guys and then we see like these teenage girls and then we'd see like the like middle-aged families [laughter] and they're all together like wanting their own piece of what we were doing. Yeah. >> And so for that all for for all those reasons, >> I loved that Earl was part of it. And and I will say one more thing, we would we would there were certain shows that were pretty stiff, you know, like they just felt kind of stiff and we would all look at each other like we're we're about to blow the roof up with Earl Dibbles. And we've been stiff for 90 minutes. >> And Earl only would play one song at the very end. He played the country boy song. Even though he he started to get more songs, I sang those as Granger, but the country boy song was the one we always ended with the very end. And so we would just think we're about to go out with a bang. That was always the way. We left every stage just in total chaos. The metal shows over and you know like sticks drumsticks are broken and we walk off the stage. >> It's so [laughter] funny you say that because like you know I I mean I stopped watching pro wrestling when I was you know like in middle school or whatever. Yeah. >> But I literally saw a clip yesterday uh it was the Dudley boys. They were like these these legendary tag team guys and there was a huge I think it was a Wrestlemania and like Steve Austin was going against Undertaker or somebody like that was the main bill and they're watching the match right before them which was one of the most insane like tag team matches. I think it was a tables ladders and chairs match a TLC match or whatever and literally the match was so unbelievable and there were no limits on the match. It's like the limits are your creativity and how big the arena is, right? Those are the only two limits. And then you got Stone Cold and and Undertaker. They're not going to be using tables. There is no Hell in a Cell. There is no cage. Like there there is no pyrochnics. There's none of that. >> And they were so furious in the moment. They're like, "How in the world are we going to go out and headline WrestleMania now >> when the buzz that just happened, >> the pop that just happened is more than we will ever experience? There's nothing we can create that will compete with that. So it makes sense that they would be frustrated with that. But and and again long career, lot lots of lots of singles, like lots of stuff that did well on radio and all those different things. But when we, you know, was kind of reading through the new book, >> there was some sort of a thing bubbling up inside of you. And it wasn't who am I? Like am I Earl or am I Granger? And so I I was curious about that, but I'm glad you kind of delineated. >> It was >> should I even be doing this, >> right? the Earl Dibbles thing like yeah the dip and the the four cans of Pap's Blue Ribbon or whatever your favorite beer at the time was >> and the drinking every night and drinking heavily and that's part of the whole stick but then it's like okay but now I'm drinking and I'm not on stage and I'm you know I'm hooting and hollering a lot but is this what I should be doing? I'm curious about that because you know you at some point you have a bit of a country music theology as part of your upbringing and then like yeah you know Christ snatches you out of that at some point and so help us kind of understand the timeline of this thing that's welling up inside of you and then how it's extrapolated out onto this very successful career. >> So everything you just said none of that happened soon and it was never a great epiphany. Um it wasn't like man I am a you know I'm becoming this this character on stage and it was and maybe I shouldn't do this. Um the Lord had to do his work first. So that that took my life to about everything we've said. You know things were going great. Career was exactly what we wanted. Um bigger than we could have imagined. Amber and I were living the life we dreamed of. We were happy. Kids were happy. Three kids. Um um and it was a it was a Tuesday morning, June 4th, 2019, uh when I found my son Ripper dead in our pool in our backyard. And that became kind of the hinge of my entire life. If you were going to fold my life into right now, the the hinge that the the part that folds is that that's when everything turned and changed direction. I was uh playing gy gymnastics with my daughter and um the boys were playing water gun fight in the backyard inside. Um Amber was getting the house ready for bedtime. It's just a beautiful evening about 7:00 p.m. Next morning I was going to the CMT music awards in Nashville and then from there going to another Midwest tour and I remember thinking soak up this moment because it won't last forever. just thinking the kids are young, the boys were three, five, and the and London was seven. Like this is such an amazing time in my life. Like everything's just rocking and and we're just living the dream. And that's when I looked over my left shoulder and saw Riv in the pool inside the gated locked pool face down. And I had just seen him. So it was it was a matter of minutes that he would have been in there. Um, and it it was 20 feet away from me. I couldn't I was just in shock that you wouldn't have heard this or seen it. My daughter who was gymnastics, you know, right in front of me that she wouldn't have seen this. That Lincoln, my other son, had abandoned the water gunfight and was already in the garage. It was just all all none of it made sense. None of it can compute. And I pulled him out of the water. I thought that he was going to be um choking and crying and I was going to say, "What are you doing, buddy? Hey, you know you're not supposed to be in here. How did you get in this gate? What are you doing? Um, we know later he was filling up his water gun. Must have fallen in. But that's not what happened. He was lifeless and cold and skin was blue. His eyes were open yet looking nowhere. He's in his PJs. I pulled him to the to the side of the pool and began CPR. Um, London ran up to me and I said, "Go get your mama." I didn't have my phone or anything on me. So, she goes in the house. Amber comes running out shocked, but then she doesn't have a phone. She goes in again to get a phone. Called 911, got online with uh on the phone with dispatch and they were kind of walking us through CPR, but it took him about 10 minutes to get there cuz we lived out in the country. It was too far, too long for a a little brain to go without oxygen. So they although they were able to revive his heartbeat when emergency services arrived, um we lost him soon after because his brain had gone too long. So that was it. My everything that we've said thus far in this podcast, everything stopped, you know. Um I I I stopped um caring. Maybe I could I should say what what was everything for? What was the purpose of all this? What was what was the meaning of chasing dreams and working hard and having a family and dreaming about a new house? What was Earl Dibbles Jr., you know, charts, songs, number one spots, the endless endless rat race? What what did any of it mean? And that was a that was the beginning the beginning of the new journey the Lord had me on. Certainly. Um it it there took it took more, but that was the beginning of that. >> So [clears throat] we talked about this a little bit um in the truck this morning, but um you almost described almost to a tea a situation that occurred with our youngest. And I'm literally about to feed my wife a bite of dessert at this party >> and something. You know, something inside of her told her, "Turn around." And she looks out the window and we see our three-year-old dive in the pool without his floaty on. >> And I managed to get out there immediately. But if I had gone to the bathroom, if she didn't, you know, and so like you think about what you would do if that became the hinge point for your life, but that's what actually happened with you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you've got subscribers, you've got money, you've got fans, you've got, you know, people that just adore you. And then you realize all that isn't currency. Even currency isn't currency. >> And you how do you even figure out what to do? Because there's mourning, there's parenting your other two children, there's loving your wife as you know, Christ loved the church, even if that wasn't your focus at the time. But at what point do you even give yourself permission to do anything normal? to pick up the guitar, to go on tour, to do the Earl Dibbles thing, to do the Gringanger Smith thing, to smile, to smile with your kids and your wife, and to have fun without feeling like, oh, we're leaving River out, like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, at what point do you get there, >> man? um uh slowly and badly and clumsily to to answer all of those things because each of those things you said is kind of like a we could talk for an hour about each of those little aspects like h how how do you smile again with your family feeling like River is not with you anymore. But the the I think the most important thing we we could say about this situation is I thought I was a Christian. my whole life I believed I was a Christian. So that's that's kind of good to remember as I tell this story just you know the foundation of this book. All this time I thought I was a Christian through everything I've said so far on this podcast from from you know we were my parents raised us um faithfully I believe my mom read the New Testament to me when I was a baby you know like we were in church we understood the gospel could articulate it there wasn't a time I didn't believe in Jesus you said it earlier >> and and but I don't think anyone would have looked at me in 2019 and go man that guy loves the Lord. You could just tell. >> You could just tell he loves the Lord. You know, >> I wasn't I wasn't um immoral. I wasn't off the rails. I wasn't the guy that people go, "That guy needs Jesus bad." >> I was just a normal American guy living the dream. Yeah. Claiming Jesus, you know, praise the Lord. That that's who I was. So, naturally, a Christian leans on the Lord in in a tough situation like this, in a tragic situation. But what I did was I leaned on myself. Self-help was something I loved and I was very into self-help. And so I I I already had a very regimented life. was like counting calories, two workouts a day, ma uh managing sleep well, um reading my non-fiction, um listening to my audio books, reading my devotionals, like um scheduling time with my family, like blocking time for family, being intentional, present with kids. I was like do like take all the books. I was doing all the things. So, and I needed to to maintain um the the travel schedule. So, like that was my drug. Like some people could do that with cocaine. I was doing it with self-help. Yeah. Like regimen. >> So, when we lost Riv, um I quickly leaned into, okay, here we go. Game on. Everything I've prepared for, this is where you would use it. Be the rock for your family. be an example for others while you're grieving that they could look to you and and have hope in the way that you're moving through that the way you're processing, the way you're being open about the situation and yet also showing strength because that's what men do, you know, resilient. We need to be there for a wives like she's I got to be there for my wife like biologically she's she's going to have a deeper connection. These are things I'm telling myself. These are things I'm believing. Be there for the children. like be there to talk and also be there to show we this is what we do. This is what Smiths do. You know, we're strong. We move we move forward. >> Um we were being mindful about putting the kids in play therapy. Amber and I were doing we were doing like therapy retreats. So, we're kind of checking all the boxes and there were there was progress and then we would take two steps back or I would take two steps back. But the reality was, anytime man finds an identity in himself and begins to trust himself and lean on himself and that begins to crumble, he winds up in a [clears throat] very bad spot. >> Amen. >> And that was me by December of that year. >> And so I mean even just keep going. Well, I'm even curious like what does the step back look like when you said you took a step forward, took some steps back. I think anyone that's mourned something real, a loss, understands what that means. and then then let's work towards the >> Yeah, that that could just simply mean um you you have days where you go, yeah, I'm like mindful, present, I'm I'm aware of the loss, and yet I'm still functioning, sun's shining on my shoulders. Actually feel kind of good today. And the next day you're just like, I don't want to get out of bed. Like I'm ashamed, guilty father. Like I've done I failed at the one thing that they say you're supposed to do as a father. Just keep your kids alive till they're 18. And I failed at the most meaningless bottom level task of a father. Keep them alive. I failed at that. So who does that make me? So that that would be a huge step back. But ultimately they I wound up in um Boise Idaho on tour uh December of that year. And part of you know going back to tour was pretty practical. It was like, "Hey, the faucets's on and the drains open and I'm like I'm losing every I'm losing there. I had massive bills to pay with two buses, a semi-truck, a full crew, 14 guys. Like we're we have to we have to go take some of these commitments." >> Yeah. >> And so I went out there and put on, you know, just put on a front and just did it. I could do it like a robot. I could do our show. Even Earl Dibbles Jr. I could just do it. And then I'd go right back to the bus and just shut the door. And that led me to December of that year, Boise, Idaho. We went uh me and my guitar player went skiing that day. And it was nice just to get out in the snow and get on a mountain. And um on the first run, I lose track of my guitar player, circle back, and I see like these emergency guys around him broke his collar bone. Fell, broke his collar bone. to totally separated it. Right in the middle of the tour, it needs a he needs immediate surgery. [laughter] I'm like, "Oh, this is great, man. This is great." So, I go back to the band now. We're a four piece instead of five. So, we have to all of us have to take on the parts of John that broke his collarbone. He's not going to be there. So, we're work. we have to like do this extra work and figure out how each intro and outro and all the solos and like any piece that he had we have to have covered and the so the show sold out and we did it and we felt so great like we did it we we accomplished this as a four piece band didn't skip a beat and we were so happy afterward um my sound guy was like hey man there's a there's like a little bar where the buses are parked that no one knows about just tiny let's just go in there. We'll have have some drinks, you know, decompress. I was like, that sounds amazing. Like just to feel normal. I was very aware of my alcohol um during that stage of grief cuz I I didn't want anything influencing me that could take away from my self-help, the rock that I had built, you know, didn't want anything to numb me. Like, yeah, sounds great, man. Just feel normal again. I feel good today. So, we went had we we had several drinks. Of course, I'm I'm drinking on the rocks because I don't want any sugar, any, you know, any added like that. This is how crazy I was. >> Yeah. >> And we we had just a good a good time remembering the old old days. Um and one of the guys was like, "Man, it's so good to see you normal again." And I was like, "It feels good to be normal. It's been 6 months since the worst day of my life. I feel like we're starting to see like some light at the end of the tunnel. So, I walked out into that cold Boise air and I got to my tour bus and I couldn't remember the co the key lock code. That's something I had entered thousands of times. I couldn't remember it. And that's the first time I was like, well, like I'm a little I'm not really myself right now. >> Finally remember it. Get on the bus. I'm kind of walking to the back and stumbling a little bit. And I got to the back and then I see my little room, my self-help books on the bed, my like um devotional Bible vers like motivational Bible verses on chalkboard and and all my like win the day type genre stuff, you know, on the chalkboard that I had written and and my little uh marijuana um weed pin, >> like vape pen that helped me sleep. So, I didn't have I didn't have my visions of all the crazy things I would constantly think about. River in the pool, the doctor saying this is his there's no chance, the funeral, the little coffin, all the his favorite tractor, the excavator, digging dirt and putting it on top of his coffin. Like all these nightmarish things, the the marijuana helped me go to sleep and and get a good night's sleep. I see all this stuff there and I was like, whoa, things aren't normal. I I thought I was getting better. I'm still very much sick. And and I thought, this is the first time I've been drunk since we lost him. Will I be able to fend off these, you know, crazy thoughts? And I grabbed that that marijuana pin like I better hit this just in case. like I need to go to sleep quick is what I was thinking. >> And as soon as I picked it up, I just immediately started slipping into this [sighs] this I call it the slideshow where you're just kind of stuck in this room where you you can't stop seeing the things playing on loop. And my mind is just slipping into this vortex, you know, and I take that pen and I hit it as hard as I could and it's not helping. It always helped. It always made me go to sleep, relax. It didn't. I'm I'm amping up. I'm starting to cry. I'm starting to shake, you know, and um I in this panic attack that I was happening having having is it as it was the vortex was getting narrower and narrower and I felt the whole world closing in. Um I almost without thinking opened the drawer and pulled out the my Glock 9 mm and I knew that Glock 17 so so well. I knew that that double trigger. I knew the way it feels. Um, and I put it in my mouth in this state, this panic attack state that I was in. Finger on trigger, squeezed the the first half. And it was in this moment, I don't know, looking back, was that was this a 10-second thing or was this like a 5minute thing, you know? I don't know. But in that moment, I re I recognize something. I wasn't alone on the back of that tour bus by myself. And I know that because I became aware, instead of sounding like I'm crazy on your podcast, I think it's better to say it this way. I became aware that my brain was thinking a thought that it was not generating. There was an outside >> put there >> thought put there. >> Yeah. >> And that's better than saying, "I heard a voice." >> That's right. Yeah. Because it's hard to distinguish when when your your brain is something is put there and you're thinking it and it was saying this is the way to rest. This is the way to peace. The world will be better. Your family will actually be better. You'll rest now. Just squeeze. And it was then it was the they're the recognizing that there was an enemy with me hunting me. An enemy that had me pinned, cornered, outnumbered, outmanned. I had nothing to defend myself. I had wooden wooden sticks to defend myself against this enemy. How long had this enemy been hunting me? How long had this enemy wanted me dead? And now here was the night he finally had me. And it was in that moment that I had nothing left. I had no self-help left. I just cried out, "Lord, Jesus, save me. Please, God, Jesus, please save me." And it was just enough peace in that moment to drop that gun to the bed and I slid down to the floor just repeating those words like a mantra just to ju just to let the time pass. And I don't count that as a conversion. But it was another hinge for me because that next morning I woke up first of all embarrassed. I was hung over, sick, utterly embarrassed at the at my weakness and that that I would have been driven that far. didn't tell anyone, not even my wife, about this moment. And we we do talk about it now and and she and she remembers that I said something like, "Had a rough night, got sick, got sick, had too much to drink, not good." You know, it's like, "Yeah, that's that's what I said." Um, but but underneath all of this was a new thought in my head that was bigger than the grief and the shame and the guilt I was carrying. Who who is Jesus really? Have I underestimated him? Of course, I believe in him. Or do I? Haven't I always trusted in him? But what happened last night? And why did that enemy's voice get silenced so quickly? And why and then why would I deserve that? What have I done to earn his intrusion in my my enemy? You know, like just all these confusing, weird thoughts. And so I started I I went to where anyone goes to if they really want information. And I went to YouTube. >> Yeah. >> You know, I just poured my started pouring myself into like sermons. Um Billy Graham was was one of the big ones because it's so abundant and they there's like black and white ones with his dark hair and then there's like color ones with his white hair and but he's basically saying the same thing almost for decades. Mhm. >> And I was slightly comforted by it wasn't anything that was new to me and it wasn't like piercing me or changing me. I just thought this is the right track. I think he's talking about my Lord. I think once again looking back in hindsight, it's much more clear now. Then it's confusing and foggy, but I still don't count that as a conversion. I still don't believe I was a Christian then. But the Lord was drawing and it was three months later, three months of this. I mean, I I became obsessed with this as you could tell. And I've become obsessed with things that's in my personality. But I would listen to so many of these. I was like brushing my teeth listening to a sermon, you know. And a friend sent me some new guys. He heard I was doing this. Listen to one of these new guys. March 1st, 2020. Driving in my truck. It's nothing new for me to be listening to a sermon, but I'm still kind of searching and he's preaching out of John 14 and commentating preaching commentating, applying. And in in verse 22, the disciple asked Jesus, "Lord, why is it that you manifest yourself to us and not to the world?" And I was like, as soon as I heard that, I was like, whoa. Yeah. Why? Like, why? Why did you come to me? Why would you, Lord, why would you visit me on that tour bus? I'm the least of all the deserving people. Like, what have I ever done to deserve any of this? And yet, I know you came to me. And then Jesus answered him in a way that just rocked my world because it threw everything upside down for me. And it still does. Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word and my father will love him and we will come to him and make our home with him." So instantly Jesus is identifying his people and the way that he manifests himself to the world by his people that keep his word. And so in this reverse psychology, me suddenly knowing I'm loved, redeemed, restored, forgiven, adopted, shamed, clean. And he's saying, "You'll know the people like this. They keep my word." And so simultaneously, I'm also not a person that even knows his word, but suddenly started craving it. And I did a U-turn and I drove home to Amber and I was like, "Babe, we got to we got to stop this devotional stuff. We need to go to the word of God. God, we need to read the word together. We are starving. We've been eating salad and we need steak. And she was like, great. I mean, in the Lord's kindness, he was bringing us together. >> And Amber's like, great. Where do we start? And I said, how about Matthew 1, birth of Christ? We could immediately start knowing what he's saying so that we could keep his word. >> But then I just started devouring it. By the time I get to the end of Revelation, I I recognize that Jesus is saying that Moses and the prophets were talking about me. So, I need to go to now I need to go to Genesis. I need to catch up that direction. And then and as you can imagine, if you think about the timeline during I'm just obsessing and just loving, craving, eating this up. Co hits. >> Mhm. >> Touring cancels. I'm just still in my bubble just devouring the the the word of God in in a way that I could know that I could know who he is and know my response to him. And it's feeding me. And slowly the guilt and shame of losing Riv although still very much there the guilt the the grief very much there but the guilt starts dampening because the world was telling me over and over after River you're a good dad you're this is not your fault Ranger don't beat yourself up over this it's not your fault you're a good dad and I'm thinking cool thanks but who's then whose fault is it like wasn't I the responsible adult in the backyard that evening? So if it's not me, who's responsible? That didn't that never added up until the gospel when Jesus says, "Yeah, you're guilty. You You have failed. You have messed up. You do have shame. Come to me. I clean you. I wash you. I I I I take away your guilt and your shame. Come to me. I make you good. Not in yourself, but from what I've done. And so I'm just like I'm I'm eating this up. I'm like to Lord, take me. Take everything here. Take everything. All of it is yours cuz I have nothing in me that's that's worth anything. And that set me free. I count that as my conversion. Everything after that, my life changed. And everything started to look differently in my life after that. So you I mean you essentially and I just appreciate the the detail in terms of your track. You go from nominal Christianity and you you address that uh quite pointedly in the in the new book, you know, Christian in name only. You're culturally Christian. You're a devout believer in u you know, country music theology. Like you're part of that. But then you come to a genuine saving faith in Christ, but you're still some combination of Granger Smith and Earl Dibbles Jr. like you're you're a combo of this guy. >> Yeah. >> As you've already elucidated, you got mouths to feed and they're not just your own, right? When you're when you're the head of the company or the head of the whatever, there are people that are depending on you to do the song and dance like literally or figuratively to kind of keep everything moving in the right direction so people can eat food and live indoors. >> Yeah. And so here you are with this this this new revelation. You've got your justification. You're now on your sanctification journey on your way to your glorification end, right? So two you're right there. >> But you also have a job to do, right? >> But then if we fast forward a few years, I mean, it's by the time we get to 2023, you're not just out like, "Hey, I'm going to take a break. I'm not going to write for a while. Hey, I'm just going to tour on the hits." Like that kind of thing. You're out out. You're out like no more buses, no more 18-wheeler, no more employees, no more band, no more music. >> And so [laughter] 2020, the world changes. That's a hinge moment for humanity seemingly. >> Y >> So we go from that to just a few years later, we're done with all of this. >> And it wasn't because you got bored with it. It wasn't because it, you know, you were tanking, right? you know, it wasn't because, you know, you'd run yourself into rehab or something like that or into some sort of an affair, you know, it was something you were just done with it and it wasn't it was because you were told to do that. >> Yeah. Now, to your audience who might be thinking about you once a week when they when the song comes on their shuffle, >> it seems sudden, >> but for you living it, >> it was this long slog of a progression to even get to that point >> even after you had the thought >> to get to the point of action. So, I'd love to hear more about really that time period and what that was like. >> Yeah, it was it was long and and the Lord was just wearing me out over these things. But, you know, after COVID lifted, you know, and they started concerts again, we started back into the festival circuit. It was great. It was such a relief to be able to get back out there and do what we love to do. And just increasingly, I just kept thinking, ah, was it like what's the point of this? Just entertaining people, which is not what an entertainer is supposed to think, you know? It's a job. And I often wish like I wish I could just check in and check out. I wish I could just clock in, go work, and come out. Why can't I do that? Well, I I've noticed that no one could do that in entert entertainment industry, in the touring industry. I've This is why you see a lot of people going like, I need to take a break. I need a I need a mental health break. You see people say things like that. >> But I I was just increasingly seeing less and less meaning in it. Even as shows were ramping back up and crowds were getting bigger again, um I was like, man, I just want to I I don't want to get dressed for the show. I wish I could just stay in here just keep keep in the book of Romans right now. This is crazy, you know? I I wish I can go tell people about about the gospel and what what I've been seeing today in his word. So, I was like, okay, the immediate answer is you should tell the gospel on the stage. So, I started doing that. You should add a gospel song to the set. did that added amazing grace. Like that became this gospel moment. And that kind of felt good for a little bit. I felt maybe that's what the Lord was wanting me to do. But he still wouldn't leave me alone about it. >> And I was like, why do I still feel so un unrested with this? I don't why don't I feel peace in what I do anymore? And so I thought eventually I thought it's the record label. I'm needing to fulfill a quota. I need to faithfully fulfill a contract, put out singles, and in order to put out a single, I need to get on a plane to go to Boston to have dinner with this guy that I don't really know, don't really like, and I got to like tell him that I like him and tell him how how how good his radio station is. I don't really don't really care. And so more and more I was like, "Yeah, that's what it is. That's what it is." So I came to my brother Tyler and I was like, "I think I'm gonna leave the label." He's like, "Please, man, what are you doing to me?" Like, he's a manager. This is this is everything to him. >> He's like, "Yeah, I think I want to walk away from the label. I just want to be an indie artist." He's like, "This is normal. People do this, but just fight through it. No one leaves a good record label in good standing." Like, "No, I actually think I want to leave." So, we went to like business manager, booking agent, like all the people we trust. And everyone was like, "Tranger, hold on, please. like I know this is a crazy season in your life, but just you'll make it through this and everything will be okay. And I was like, no, I I actually don't want to do a radio single anymore. It's too much too much meaninglessness to me. Like going and telling people about how special this song is now. This is the most special song ever >> for the 27th time. You know, I just don't I don't care. I really don't care. I think that's what it came down to. I just don't care. I don't want to. I'm I have I would rather tell the gospel to people. I'd rather I'd rather evangelize. So, um they relented and I went to the label. It was like a big deal. They had to go to Berlin and get this like during one of their meetings. They had to get they had a vote on it. There's some country singer at our Nashville branch that wants off. Why does he want off? Yeah. They like vote on it. And they came back and they said, "Hey, good news. You're all clear. We let you go. No strings attached. No further albums needed, no further commitments. I was like, "Oh, thank the Lord. Cool." And I felt good for a very short time. [laughter] The Lord was still crushing me over this. And I was like, "What is it? Why do I not feel at peace?" I mean, a long time's going by. There's like years going by in this. And I and I I start to realize maybe it's the show itself. Like maybe I should test myself in the show and see where where my heart position is. I'm giving them the gospel in Amazing Grace. Isn't that enough? But then I would I remember one specific show I went out there and I was trying to be very aware of how I was feeling and I was like, "All those people down there, why are they not standing up? What's wrong with those people?" O and last time we came here that back section was totally packed and now I see space back there. What's wrong with this city? Oh, like, oh, pride is crushing me. Like, my need, my need for being worshiped essentially. I wouldn't have said it that way, but my need for being, you know, applauded is crippling me. And it's directly connected with my paycheck. The more the more people cheer for me, the higher my paycheck. and that that means in order to have a higher paycheck, I need more pride. I need more sin to get there. And I just thought, "Oh man, Lord, you want me to drop all of this, don't you?" And I I remember going home, this was in December. I went home to Amber and I was like, "Hey, I think I'm going to leave touring." And she goes, "I I knew this was coming and I I I'm with you." Absolutely. When do you think you want to do it? And I was like, now it's a good time. December. Like here's the break. She goes, "No, babe. You gota you got to do like a farewell tour. Like you got to announce it and go say go say a proper goodbye to the people that have followed you for decades." >> That's right. >> It's like, "Ah, you're so right." That's wise. So did an 8-month farewell tour ended in um it ended in August almost to the day of where we were recording this podcast three years ago. Uh, we did backto-back shows in Fort Worth and walked off the stage for the last time unaware of just how what my emotions would be. Would I be sad? Would I like drop a tear on the stage? I don't know. I I don't know how this is going to go. But I told the crowd that night on the last show, I said, "A lot of people have asked me why I'm doing this, and I know there's mixed feelings. I know there's people that are people indifferent, like Granger is not good anyway. No one cares. There's people who are like, "This is actually ripping my life apart." And then there's other people that are like, "Poor guy, whatever, whatever makes him happy." You know, he's gone a little crazy after he lost his son. >> Yeah. >> You know, those are all the camps of people. And I So to answer all of those, I told the people, I said, "Maybe I could best describe it by a parable that Jesus told in Matthew 13. He said, "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field that a man finds and covers up. Then in his joy, he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field." And I said, "I'm standing here in front of you today back here with a sold tour buses, sold truck, sold sold gear, sold guitars, everything. Everything's gone." Not because I'm tired or burned out or indifferent, because I found a treasure that's worth sharing, that's worth telling you about. Who wants to go with me to the next stage? And that was the message. And I walked off that night and I rode home for the last night on a tour bus, Wildflower, a bus I'd had for seven years. And the people that that bought it were waiting in central Texas when we got home. And I woke up out of my little bed, the same same little area where all the wild stuff happened in Boise, you know, so many memories, and I picked up my bags and I took took all my stuff and I walked to my truck and looked back one more time. And since then, nothing but joy in that decision. So there's a lot there that could be commented on because every time someone does it's like when a furniture company says this is your going out of business sale. Do not believe them. That is just [laughter] a sale that they got to clear some stock cuz they got some new stock coming in from overseas and they but you're enough of a doof that you're going to go in there because some signed spinner on the corner is like we're going out of business. Yeah. >> The same thing with every band that does a farewell tour. The same thing with every fighter that says I'm retiring and all that. The assumption should tacitly should be they're tired. They're burnt out. They're coming back. >> And for some sometimes it's comedically short. You'll have a boxer do a a tearfield goodbye. They leave their gloves in the middle and then a week later it's like, "All right, got a big fight for Wembley Stadium. Uh it's going to be later on this year. Get excited." So you can never really trust someone's retirement. The same is said for music. I think Kiss has done like 17 or 18 farewell tours at this point. >> The Eagles. Yeah. >> So, I'm sure there was a camp of people that were like, "This is this is temporary." Like, >> he's going to go home and then he's going to get the itch. He's going to be changing a diaper or he's going to be taking a kid to soccer practice and he's going to be like, "This freaking sucks. Like, I want to be playing in arena, you know, in in Georgia or Texas or Utah or somewhere like I I got to do something different than than what's happening right now." But it sounded like for you and here we are three years into this experiment I guess you could call it >> to where it's like no like it's similar it's akin to the conversations you had with the young guys on tour early in your career which is what is your backup plan? >> Mhm. >> Where's your parachute? What's what names on the parachute? Is it dad's company name? Is it you XYZ factory in your hometown? Like what's >> Yeah, >> it seems like you jumped out of the plane without the parachute. >> Burned the ships. >> Yeah. You burned the ships, sold the buses, sold the gear. And so we're three years past all that. And so to the people that knew Granger from the radio and from that country music festival, they're like, "Well, where's this guy been? What's he been doing?" And these are people that probably don't read books anyway. So they don't know about the books. They don't know about the things that are going on. So what you've been doing for the last few years, bub that that exact question came up in the airport a couple days ago. There was a guy that worked like uh um for Southwest Airlines. He goes, "Kranger Smith." I was like, "Hey." and he goes, "Man, I have been wondering where you've been. [laughter] I've been around, but yeah, like I've I've often wondered where is Granger Smith." And that's a little funny to me. I told that to my brother and he he had grace for the guy and he was like, "There's so much information these days with so many people. There's so much like but I always think, would you just look me up and you would see [laughter] two seconds?" >> I'm the same way. The news cycle's too crazy. I can't pay attention to every artist that I've ever liked. >> Yeah. So, um I remember there were guys early on there were other art country artists that were calling me. They're like, "Hey, wondering if I could hire your monitor guy for like 6 months." I figured that's that's the kind of the break you guys are looking for about 6 months and then I can give him back to you after this tour. I was like, "No, bro. Actually, you just have him. If you want him, you can have him. He's great." >> What? But this isn't ser like serious. You're not really leaving. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> No, I'm not leaving. I'm gone. I'm out. >> Um and then the other question people ask all the time is, "Do you miss it? Do you miss it? Do you miss it?" >> No. No. So, um the the the in the money aspect, I mean, that's that's it. Like to tour touring is the money that artists make. We don't make money on streaming anymore or album sales. Um, which also speaks to my brother Tyler who's like that's it. That's his income. So, right before that, and this is kind of a side story, but um, iHeart Radio calls me to ask me to host this overnight show called After Midnight. Seven Seven nights a week, midnight to 6:00 a.m. syndicated, 300 stations. And which I thought was so weird at the time that they would ask me. I have no radio experience. Um, this is like 2002 and and so I just thought, yeah, >> 2022. >> 2022. Okay, >> I said two. I said two. Yeah, 2022. >> So, um, so yeah, I said I said yes to that. And it's it's amazing now looking back how the Lord set that up because that now, you know, it's not touring money or anything, but that's that's that's how we pay the bills and I could do it anywhere. I was working on a little bit this morning here in Edmund, Oklahoma. So, it's it's amazing how the Lord said, "Oh, is it money that you're worried about? Do you not think I have a cattle on a thousand hills?" >> Yeah. >> Do you not think that in your obedience I will take care of you? You see those birds, they don't have barns and yet I feed them. Aren't you more valuable than birds? You know, but we start to worry like, "But what am I going to do for money?" you know, and uh and and so in that aspect, I just kept being this radio host. We downsized our home. That was no big deal. We went to go live in a in a in an RV and we bought some land in Gerald, Texas that like no one at the time at least no one was going out to Gerald, Texas. It's like where the cheap land is. Bought some land, had a barn on it, put an RV, started to build a house. Like this is this is simple. This is easy. And um I a few years after that, I'm trying to think of the timeline, in March of 24, I was raised up in our church as one of the pastors. So I'm one of the seven seven pastors at our church. Um just a little medium-sized church in Georgetown, Texas. And that's become the the greatest office outside of husband, father that I've ever had. Being entrusted with a few people that the Lord has entrusted me with and walking alongside them in life, knowing their problems sometimes before they even know they have a problem. Um, finding the ones that are starting to stray, encouraging the ones that are just growing and growing. I I think this is the this is the most joyful season I've ever had. And this is the greatest that's that's the greatest position I've ever ever had over all the things. It's a position you couldn't have held if you're still doing the rat race. Even if you were doing the indie thing, even if you're chasing the streams or the subscribers or, you know, the the tours and the different things. And so, and I mean, we can wax poetic about fulfillment and and calling and all that kind of stuff. And I mean, that stuff's not unimportant, but the the thing I'm curious about because you're in seminary now, uh, you know, you're roughly a year away probably from finishing a seminary degree. And will that be the the last journey? It's been a journey. >> Will that be the last one or will you pursue >> the last degree? You think there be some kind of >> There's no one ever that just has an MD. Now they got to go be doctor whatever [laughter] on something. You know what I mean, >> man? Um, this last four years in seminary have been a journey. So I can't right now I can't imagine more of it. Um but but then again I don't know. >> Yeah. The the fact that I'm even in seminary at all was um not something I really planned anyway. So is there something more? I don't I don't know. I I just know this season I think you hit on it too. Why couldn't I just go back into touring? Why can't I do a reunion tour? Well, the main reason of of that is it's not time away from family. People usually go there like, "Oh, it must be hard to be away from family." Like, well, no, we could get around that by just being super present and and not being distracted, not being on our phones when we're with our family. And a lot of men like deployed soldiers go away for 6 months, 8 months, you know, 16 months sometimes. So, we It's not that, it's that I was away from my local church, which in turn I was away from my family and with my family at the local church on Sunday morning. >> That was killing me. That's one of the toxins in this book. But that was it was absolutely killing me that I was going long periods of time without a without the accountability, without being served, without serving, without um being embedded in a in a belonged group of believers living life together under the preaching of the word and the ordinances. I that I was killing myself. I was like taking cyanide poison every every Saturday night by missing being home. >> Yeah. you were just micro doing though, you know, because there's, you know, all of it all at once. But, but let's actually that's probably a good transition into the book because, you know, you you've had books before that kind of had some of the autobiographical elements of it, you know, talks about some of the hard stuff. >> And then this one, Poison in the Well, so the subtitle kind of gives you the hint, 11 toxic beliefs that kept me from the living water of Jesus. And I was kind of joking with you on the drive uh drive to the hotel last night. I was like, you know, people are going to hate this book, right? Because and it's not because it sucks. It's because it's effective and because it's every chapter is a thumb on a different nerve, right? And you're you're pushing on it. You're creating that dissonance, that angst in people. Whereas most things again, you are a self-help devote for a while. It's all about changes around the edges, but ultimately you do you, boo, you're beautiful, like you know, you're fine and all that. It's the world around you that's holding you down and here's how you can be the flower in the storm. Like it's dumb crap like that, right? And even if you go to the other side where you got, you know, 12 rules for life by Jordan Peterson, which is in that self-help category, but it's like you can you can go deep into that stuff, there's actually some there there most of it's just like slop. >> But now you're into something like this >> because nominal Christians in the book you you call them cenos, you know, Christian and name only. CO and name only. >> Yeah. >> We don't want to be told that we're not a Christian because we were born in America. >> How dare you say such thing? We don't want to be told, "Oh, we've always been a Christian." And I remember talking to my good buddy Matt Chandler. He was talking because he's from Seattle originally. He was talking to some church planters out there and you know, he was they were lamenting how hard it is being in this like super leftwing cultural progressive like godless area. How it is doing ministry. He's like, "Bro, imagine doing ministry in Dallas where everyone was born a Christian, where you're a Christian because you skipped church to go watch the Cowboys lose. like that's that's that's their identity. They're a Christian because they're Texan, right? And God loves Texas, doesn't he? So, we all get to go to heaven. >> So, he's like trying to convince someone that they're depraved when they don't even feel it. It's similar here. I was talking to one of my good buddies. His wife has a, you know, stay-at-home mom, homeschool mom that's in the neighborhood with her, Granger. She was, you know, a straight A student. She never got in trouble. She never smoked cigarettes. She was a virgin until she got married. She went to church camp. Like she did all the things. She doesn't follow Christ. She's not a believer. But try convincing her. >> Like the the homeschool mom that votes Republican and you know has some MAGA tendencies and you know can even quote some scripture and doesn't even say bad words >> that she's a depraved blackhearted sinner that has absolutely no hope of redemption >> apart from Christ. >> Yeah. >> And so >> this this book >> Yeah. like it it it kind of speaks to that. Um, and there's a lot of through points of this book. Obviously, you talk about River, you talk about your music career, you talk about this nightmare that kind of like peeled back the layers of your skull and brain that kind of gets you to that. And so, I mean, I usually start with the author. It's like, why this book? Why now? Why you? Yeah. And so, let's start there and then we can dig in. >> Yeah. 11 toxins. I think I think that's also the number of people that will end up buying this book. 11. >> Not true. We're at least [laughter] going to get 12 just from this uh recording. So, don't you worry. >> No one wants to hear uh about this like just like you said, but this woman is the perfect example of like why in the world would she read this book? >> Why did you buy me this book? Like, what do you think about me? >> Yeah. And so, starting starting with that, I'll say this is just something I needed. It's I needed this ministry in book form, >> you know? So, on a personal level, and I used my memoir before this for the same way. I could be like, "Hey, um and I would even buy it for him. Let me let me buy on books or Audible. What's your email? I'm gonna buy the audio version and send it to your email. Then if you could listen to this, then we'll talk. And so, and it's worked well. And so, it's almost like when I meet the right person, >> I can say, "Hey, we got to talk about some things, but let me send you this first and listen to it. It'll take you five hours and then let's let's discuss." So, at some level, um, it's I'm I'm thinking about my own ministry that this is a we could articulate a lot better in a book. We could we could like unpack an argument a lot better in a chapter of a book than than I can in a few just a few sentences to a guy over coffee. So these are 11 toxins that as I look back and kind of try to reverse engineer my my what I thought was my Christian upbringing, I could I could and there were a lot more than 11, but this is where I landed on what what are things I was doing or not doing that would have been a check engine light on the dash that would have revealed, hey, something might not be right under the hood. This is not saying you're not a Christian or that you are guaranteed a Christian. Neither one of those. It's just, hey, th this might be indicating something's wrong. This might be rotten fruit. You you might want to have this checked out. 11 of those. Hey guys, real quick, I just wanted to remind you that we have an official Undaunted Life store. You can go to shop.undaunted.life or check it out in the show notes. Guys, we're always going to have hats and shirts and a bunch of other awesome stuff. Go there, support us, wear the mission. Again, it's shop.unaunted.life. Check out the link in the show notes. Shop.undaunted.life. So there's so many different stark ones and and we've flown over several just in this thing, you know, just talking about country music theology. So that checks the, >> you know, I'm an American. You know, I've always been a Christian, that kind of thing. >> So the the first one is I'm an American. I start there. I told Victor Marks, I know you know, Victor, I told him that AND HE GOES, "WHAT?" >> YEAH. [laughter] >> Like I thought he was going to pull out a chainsaw and cut my head off. I was like, "Let me explain." >> Yeah. >> And I And you said it very well. I mean, we have to start with this idea that I'm an American. I'm already set back. I'm I'm already as an American, it's already harder to follow Christ, >> right? >> Not saying that it's not a blessing that we have churches on every corner and access to Bibles and and we could worship freely without fear. Common grace and and that could be taken away at any moment. We understand the the polarizing world we live in. It could any moment be taken away. But for the for that man that takes his his wife in Iran and walks barefoot four miles to the secret church without a Bible to get there with seven believers and >> they have a copy of the Gospel of John maybe. >> Yeah. And they just said, "Lord, Lord, you're all we have." And they hear the the, you know, the loudspeaker of the call to prayer going on right outside their their walls as they could literally hear Satan speaking into them. them and they just go, "Lord, Lord, who do we have but you? Save us." I mean, I in in a strange sense of the word, I almost envy that that kind of um uncomfortable faith. Not saying I want it or I would trade for it. Not saying that. But in a way, I go, >> "Oh, we're we're missing that here. We're already set back." So, we have to almost supplement um to to keep up. So, part of the supplementation is accountability. Yeah. Yeah, you know, um being having conversations about these things, it's it's important so that we don't slip into travel baseball and slip into, you know, the back nine of the golf course and slip into all the other sea shell collecting hobbies that we do as Americans in our comfortable lives. >> Well, part of the the struggle we lack is because we own so many Bibles, we don't value them. >> Yeah. >> Right. Right. And so if you had a pair of shoes >> versus a closet full of shoes, like even if you have a valuable pair of shoes, maybe you have your grandpa's uh work boots, maybe you've got a pair of rare Jordans or something like that, but you don't value it the same. And so the same thing with Bibles, even if you have an expensive Bible that you got customade and c, you know, handsewn and all the things, right? >> Yeah. >> Well, I think I'm pretty sure you were said this in your book. Oh, no, you did because this is what I wanted to talk about. So, one of the hardest things for a pastor to do if you're in charge of a funeral is how do you conduct a funeral where the person clearly was not a believer in Christ, but everyone thought they did that they were. >> Yeah. >> Or not, that's even too specific. Saying believer in Christ, was a Christian, whatever that means. >> And so, you have these people and you're trying to get to know the dead person because you didn't know them individually, but you got to do something. You got to say something in front of all these people. And so, they start saying, "Well, yeah, didn't Jimmy have a Bible?" And then you go find Jimmy's Bible. still got cellophane on it or it looks pristine. Now, the only difference, the only caveat is like I keep my stuff super pristine. These people that have these ratchet Bibles that are they they literally it's like they threw it across the gravel parking lot 17 times before they went into the coffee shop to do their Bible study. Yeah, I like to keep mine looking pretty good. So, that's not indicative of of how much I read your Bible. I can feel your judgment. That's why I said it. But like so you're grasping at straws Granger >> because you can't be the pastor that at Bubba's funeral when everyone thought Bubba was a good guy and man he never he always paid his bills on time and Bubba man he went to church every now and then and I never heard Bubba cuss not a once and all that. >> Yeah. >> Nothing which says that he had put his faith into Christ for the propitiation of a sin debt. You can't say that like at the funeral unless you want to get lynched by all the people there or driven out of town out of town with, you know, a mob with pitchforks and and torches. And so, but that's the hard thing is is what do you say whenever grandmama dies, but it's it's clear evidentiary evidentiarily speaking grandmama did not believe in this stuff. She did Christian stuff. >> Yeah. >> She was an American. >> Yeah. She may have even recited the sinner's prayer, which is chapter 5 in the book, >> but there's no evidence of saving faith in her life. >> Yeah. >> And even [clears throat] someone saying, "Hey, don't you ever doubt that I believe in God." It's like, "That's not what I'm talking about." Like, "I do believe that you believe uh in God." You could even be Jordan Peterson who has publicly said that not only does he believe that Jesus was a real person, but that Jesus really died on Roman cross, was really put into a tomb and an atheist podcaster got to got him to admit that Jesus resurrected, that Jesus walked out of that tomb. What we have yet to hear is that he has transferred his faith for his righteousness from himself into that reality as a payment for his sin debt that he owes to a holy and just father God. And so like I mean just just talk about that where we we would love to man you know uncle J John he's he's looking down on us right now like that that kind of concept or oh I just can't wait to see you know my aunt aunt whoever in in heaven again and how that's just we get lost in that and it's it's more to make us feel good as opposed to dealing with what's really happening. >> Yeah. First of all funerals are good for this type thing. And that's why I actually like calling it a funeral, not a celebration of life. >> Yeah. >> But funerals should remind us and everyone that attends death is real and our time is is short. You have an hourglass behind you. I saw it on over here. >> Yeah. >> Um the the Puritans used to put hourglasses on their on their tombstone and and like a skull with wings on it. Basically, time flies and your time is running out. So, we should be reminded of that because these are because it's it's in these moments that we are directed back to our need for a savior to atone for our sin, you know. So, funerals are good for that. And you're talking about a real story I wrote about in the book where I was invited to to lead a funeral, which is always a little scary. If I'm getting invited and it's outside of my church, that means they don't have a pastor. They don't have a church body of any kind of if of anyone, not even an elder in the church that could lead it. That's a scary thing, right? They want to go to the house to get to know the person and there's no Bible to, you know, maybe find some highlighted verses that they loved or maybe some notes kind of stuffed into the pages and there's nothing. There's not a Bible. There's not a pastor. Um, and so it it would be like saying out in the backyard we have a pecan tree. How do you know the little the leaves? You know, yeah, but like wouldn't it have pecans? Wouldn't that be the easiest thing to say? Yeah, but a pecan doesn't doesn't make a tree. Yeah, you're right. But wouldn't a healthy pecan tree always put out pecans? Because I know hackberry trees that look just like that and the leaves are very similar. And so we just like we kind of mimic hackberry trees, you know, in our life. We do Christian things. We we we are moral. Sometimes it's just because we want to go far in life or like obey not get a traffic ticket, you know. >> So So there's we kind of fall in these constraints, but it's that's just not Christianity. That's moralism. >> We have to know. >> When you were talking about self-help stuff earlier, that's moral therapeutic dism. So that's >> so you're getting >> you're getting baseless morality. I forget who said it. May have been Chesterton, but it's like it's like having your feet planted firmly in midair, >> right? So your feet are planted firmly so you feel good, but there's nothing underneath you. >> Yeah. >> And but that's the hard thing to go to people and be like, "And look, I've got some very close people to me in my life that if you were to say, "Are you a Christian?" They would say yes. But it'd be some of the toxic beliefs that you talk about in this book. It's because I'm American. Because I ain't never killed nobody. Because I worked hard my whole life. me. It's because I and that that goes back to you know that that [clears throat] great sermon by Alistair Beg to where it's like and and I got my issues with some things that Alistister Beg has said and done. But like whenever he basically says if you start that pearly gates thing is if we go to the pearly gates and they're looking at you and you got all these people judging you as if that's how it goes down. But it's like if you start your sentence with because I you've already missed it because that is not the gospel. The gospel is not because I did this because I did any of these things. It's because he because he. And why, you know, to the thief on the cross, why do you get to get in? Well, the guy in the middle cross said I could come, right? Because he because [clears throat] he. Not because I. Because he. >> That's right. >> And >> and we don't have to say anything. We could we could leave Alistister alone, right? >> I don't think so. I know. >> Oh, he's probably at a gay wedding right now. That guy. Um, you know, hanging out, you know, June's his favorite month of all time. All those things. Yeah. So, I got to take some shots here and there. But so the ultimate thing is the fingers can be pointed in a lot of different directions about just cenos like uh cultural Christianity you could call it that way. But one big bugaboo thing and this this is a crossover between your two worlds is contemporary Christian music. And you can couch that and define it however you want. >> One of my biggest bugaboos is that when people talk about worship music they think about contemporary Christian music. M those aren't the same thing. Worship music is the father category. Contemporary Christian music is one sound under that category. So think of it like there's country music and then there's red dirt, right? There's there's outlaw country. There's folk country. There's radio country. There's but it's it's country music. >> But so it bugs me because I never really understand understood contemporary Christian music. Uh and never agreed with my musical pallet. I'm an underground metal guy, hip-hop guy. Like that's the stuff that I was raised on. like just some of the most aggressive stuff that you can imagine Junior >> and so well and even with that it's like I would much rather hear that than chorus chorus verse one chorus bridge key change course chorus course chorus chor course and 17 minutes later thank God this song is over the only thing I'm praising God for is that the song is over >> and then we get into the next one >> and so we force feed culture these songs that aren't very good these lyrics that are you know they're not theologically based there's no depth there just easily repeatable and memorizable. And then we tell the men in our congregation if they're not singing, if they're not falling out in the aisles, it's cuz they have a pride issue, which they might, but it could just be that they're they're listening to this like this this has got to be over soon, right? And then it's cuz we've subsumed CCM into worship music. And so guys don't think there could be country worship, that there could be heavy metal worship, that there could be death metal worship, trap rap worship, that there could be folk worship, indie worship. And so they end up just not worshiping God at all. And so I'm I'm kind of like circling the drain into the same question, which is the favors that we have not done or that CCM or that, you know, musical Christianom has done to almost make people reckon with the realities of what they're singing because it's easy to sing along with and it's easy to get whipped up by the chord progression and the lights and the fog, but we're not actually reckoning with the Lion of Judah, with who the God that we're actually like talking about and how Jesus is not just like a cute boyfriend or a guy that we can, you know, curl up and put in our shirt pocket and take out whenever it's convenient, but that it's like, no, he he should be everything that our that our life is pointing to. And so, you can take that wherever you want to go, but I mean, this audience has heard me complain about it just over and over and over. >> You're just wanting a fellow musician, Christian musician to come in here and uh help help you with >> I figured you would disagree, to be honest. And so, because, you know, I've had plenty of people disagree with my position on this. Uh they they can't always back up why they disagree, but they do disagree. But [clears throat] uh I've just talked to so many men that had the same feeling I did and and I carried this around Granger for over a decade where I'm like is something wrong with me. >> Like I I go into these settings where I'm supposed to be worshiping and I'm just annoyed and it's like I want to to worship the Lord. I want to prepare my heart to be in the in the right place and then it's like man is something broken in me. And then I had a a local pastor here in Oklahoma City. I've mentioned this a lot. you know, we're just kind of casually talking and I was like, "Yeah, I'm not really into, you know, Hill Song United and Bethl and I just it's not really my thing." And he looks at me and he goes, "Sir, I'm not I'm not sure you're saved because I didn't like songs that were made by, by the way, by a band with non-Christian members. >> There are some Christians that are in the band. Some of them are just session musicians that are pagans. >> Their managers aren't Christians. The people at the label aren't Christians. Like the people mixing the music and the producers, they're not Christians." But okay, but that's Christian music because it's on a radio station that's safe for the whole family. Is that it? And so I just I've talked to so many men that thought they were broken like I did. I'm like, "Bro, you're not broken. But I'm not going to give you an excuse. I'm not going to give you an out that you're not allowed to. You oh, you don't have to worship through song because CCM sucks." Nope. You still need to find a way to worship in song because we're to worship in spirit and in truth and music is is part of that that game. And so I am just wondering from your perspective having seen behind the curtain of the music industry a little bit you could probably confirm some of the things I'm saying and you might have a different more nuanced view of it. >> Yeah let's uh break this down a little bit. So the worship um in in the form of music because we know that worship is not just music worship worship is a an an expression toward a towards something that we are um idolizing. I guess you could say it that way. that that way you could you could cover anybody could worship Taylor Swift or >> or a >> um a solar eclipse like you could you could worship anything you want. We are built to worship um but we are built to worship only one being that is the Lord. And so anything else leads us to despair ultimately will let us down. So understanding that most people think worship is only music. It's not. But worship follow worship music is under the category of ministry of the word. So in other words the easy word easier way to say that is administration of the word. So worship music under the heading administration of the word which is also um the administration of the word through preaching church ordinances uh fellowship. So we're all under this ministry. And so that means that the the music naturally should be wordbased. It needs to come from the word of God. And it needs to be um it it needs to show the dynamic of the word of God too. It can't be stale. It can't be repetitive. It can't be the same thing over and over. Um um stylistically it should be it should be you should be able to sing it. Anybody should be able to sing it even even someone with not a good voice or or they think they have no voice at all. So it should fall in a range. Why wouldn't it? If you if you wanted a congregation under the administration of the word to worship, that means that instantly means participation, not observation. Like you're not just absorbing. Yeah. >> Or you know, watching the performance, but you're in it. So you're under the administration in the worship singing. So you would need it like total just practically to be in a key that that you could sing. And and I would say let's make let's let's um tend it towards the men because women could could have an easier ability to jump an octave. So make sure the men could sing it. >> Yep. >> And and an offshoot of that is you can tell I've thought about this a lot too. An offshoot of that is that if you have men singing in your church, if you could get your men to sing, the women will follow that. >> Yes, they will. Not in some kind of weird, you know, you like dominant submission thing, but >> their voices will fall in amongst the male voices. >> Yes, there is. I'm look, I get chills just thinking about it. You walk in a church >> where men are unashameably singing like a a rich theological hymn or spiritual song. The children will look and they'll follow their daddy. >> That's right. >> The wives will look and they'll sing. the single women will look at the single men and go there's something something strong about that man and he's not ashamed to sing truths back to the Lord the audience of one so yeah I I'm very passionate about this subject and I think we have we have wildly missed the mark on on what it means to collectively gather as a body and sing to the Lord and that's why and I'm not I'm not an advocate for like only old hymns I think they're wonderful But I think >> well there's a reason we're still singing them hundreds of years later. There's also there's there's like a lane of new hymns that work well, you know, like but but I think the main if the main diet is is like a classic hymn that has worked and worked and worked through centuries that has been thought through and sung and and and you feel the gospel and you feel the the weight of the of our depravity and the gospel truth and what Jesus came to reconcile us to back to God. And then and then a lot of the old hymns will end with like and then when the final day comes and I finally see you face to face or when my when I'm finally put into into the ground like you kind of take this journey through the stanzas of a good hymn. >> Mhm. >> And even the people that show up and they they're not in the mood for it or they don't they don't really know they're just singing these truths and it's it's through melody it's hitting them right in the heart and piercing them with the word of God is crucial. Granger, you're also you mentioned so many different things there that I want to like focus back in on is all voices are represented, right? And so I I don't have a musical background. And most men that have this complaint or this discomfort, they don't have musical background either, but the song is in a key that they can't hit. So even when they try to they kind of look around, they got their hands in their pockets and they're like, and they're and they start muddling something, it's like, "Oh, shoot. doesn't sound like uh the fancy guy on stage with the you know the in ears. So they just >> white [clears throat] shoes. >> Yeah. So they don't have they don't have anything to add to it. Same thing with parts. >> Um when there's >> cuz I the first church I ever went to was like a church of Christ and of course they don't have musical accompaniment and you know all that cuz it wasn't described in the New Testament. Neither was HVAC and uh electricity either but they have those in the churches anyway. Shots fired. Um, but th those are the things is there were multiple parts. There were multiple and again I don't understand the harmony how that works. Like when I hear a great harmony, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, how did that happen?" Yeah. >> Um, but it just because there are multiple parts represented, there's a key. There's a place for your voice. But if I can't even hear my voice >> because we're in the room, all the lights are down. The sound system is absolutely cranked up. There's, for whatever reason, 15 people on stage. Eight of them have microphones, but they're not even turned on. They're just dancing around like being a distracting mess. And then it's just like I can't even hear myself sing. I can't hear my wife next to me or my my my boy next next to me on the other side. And so it's is the congregation singing singing? Yes. But it's like are you sure? Because even if no one in the crowd was singing and even I just called it a crowd, right? you know, even if nobody in the congregation were singing, would you even notice because of the the the PA system being at this unbelievable level? But then I also think about the endurance of something like the doxology. What is that thing like 700 years old? It's one of the earliest uh, you know, hymns, if you can call it that, that we have. Saw this video online. It was some group. It was some old church. It was, you know, two levels, right? There's the balcony and the lower level, all men. And there's the choir director or guy, you know, doing his thing. And it's only males, only the doxology. No instruments, no accompaniment, no female voices, no nothing. And you want to talk about chills, bro. And everyone was participating. And here's the thing, I love Shane and Shane. They're my f. If I had to pick one from that genre, [clears throat] I'm taking Shane Bernard and Shane Ever. I think Phil W Phil Wickham has some spectacular stuff. He submits his lyrics to theologians to make sure he's not leading anyone astray. I love that. >> Yeah, >> Brandon Lake is insanely talented. That dude can sing and his and ride his butt off. >> 300 years from now, if the Lord has not come back, are we singing those songs and and I don't mean that dissipatively to those three people. I think they're incredibly important. Are we going to be singing Forest Frank in a few centuries? Right. >> Yeah. I think we're trying to we got to distinguish like what what are we using those songs for because are you driving your kids to soccer practice listening to that? F cool. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's like like I would rather you do that than a thousand other things, you know? >> Yeah. >> Um I'd rather Brendon Lake than than anything that that you would find on on a pop station or even a country station, honestly. >> Just as depraved, just a little bit different sound. >> But but are those guys even even saying that this should be sung on Sunday morning? on that's an honest question. I don't know. I don't even know if those guys would be like, "Yeah, this should be like one of the six you sing on Sunday morning because if we just look at it practically just well, what's the goal?" It's even in the title worship leader, not worship performer, but like aren't you trying to lead people? So, if the goal is lead people, then don't you want them to actually sing? And so, it's such a quick test. they're not singing. This song's not going to work or we're too loud or we've we've created an environment where it's too dark in here and like it's not it's not welcoming. So, we need to immediately change, >> right? Isn't that the goal? Like, wouldn't most churches say I I think >> well the church growth experts Granger just to to even [laughter] put in there, right? Which that's a job that people have. But I mean, how did these megaurches get started? It's because marketing people and branding people are like, "Oh, dude, we can murch this thing out the yin-yang." like look how many campuses that you could get, you know, in just a short period of time and you pay for it all in cash. It's going to be incredible. >> But the what they would tell you, the MC church people would tell you >> is when we have the lights down where the only lights that are on are the stage lights, then you can be more comfortable. Again, it's catering to the unbeliever. It's catering to, you know, the seeker sensitive model, which is, okay, you can dance like no one's watching, right? Because probably no one's watching cuz they can't see you, right? because they have to open up their flashlight on their phone to go to the bathroom, right? Because everything's so so dark inside the theater, which is what it ends up feeling like >> warehouse. Yeah. And I And I think that people >> and again, people are like, "Oh, why are you being, you know, uh, dismissive of certain ministries and all that?" It's like, look, the Lord can work. He can draw straight lines as [clears throat] crooked sticks. He's been doing it for a few thousand years. He's good at it. But at the same time, it's just like when your sheep are not being fed, right? And when the worship leader is more performing, testing out new songs that they've written with the band so they can release it on Spotify and then the congregation isn't singing. What exactly are you doing? Like what are you doing up there other than showing us how talented you are? Great. I'd rather you be talented. Yeah. >> Uh it's easier to do that. But some of the times when I've been in in that worship setting where you're doing the hymns, you probably don't want to hear that guy on a record that that's leading the people in song, but he is doing his job where he is leading worship. He is kicking it off. He's giving you the right key. I mean, know a guy that blows into that whatever thing that tell, okay, this is what this song's going to be in. And then everybody goes and then there's their their voice is drowned out by the congregation >> and the congregation is singing and >> it's something that has to be taught. You have you have to teach the church this and and to help you also. You're not dismissing to the to haters. You're not dismissing ministries. You're just saying things go in the proper place. >> We shouldn't bring that song with that style into the church. We shouldn't bring on a Sunday morning the lights down low and the smoke machine up and the and the video screen on and the and the in ears and the performance like do that on a Friday. And once again, I'll say again, I would rather you do that than go to a Taylor Swift concert. >> Yeah. >> If that's what you want to do, if the soccer moms and their kids want to go do that, um that's fine. Don't bring that to the church on Sunday morning because it's actually harming your sheep. And and so begin today to teach your church the importance of singing. And there's and and this will also set you free in your church. It'll set you free because now you don't you no longer have to think about who's like do we have like a keyboard player that's talented? >> Yeah. >> No, just get a dude with that could play a G chord and go praise God from whom all blessings flow. Like go that like and and the mic's not even that loud. That's not going to >> over happens. >> Watch what happens. >> Yeah. >> That's all you need. >> And and you will be set free. You will be set free by this. And your people will be will be equipped with the word of God through singing. If you get if your pastors are also choosing your hymns, aligning them with the sermon text so that you could say you're you're preaching out of this sermon text and we need to we need to give make sure the people are assured. Make sure they're aware of u their their sin. Make sure uh forgiveness in the Lord is is prominent. So you just got fi find these six songs, these ancient hymns that have been that that have been used along with this for so long and get one guy in a G chord and go and be set free. >> Yeah. I mean, you talk about that freedom, the race that some churches that get to a certain size feel like they have to perform now. Oh man, we can't just, you know, sing anymore. We gota we got to write an album. Like we got to record these songs. We got to write our own songs. But I forget who said it who said it first. I love to give them credit, but it's like we will sing our heresies before we believe them. And some of these churches will will sing these these radio Christian songs. And if you were to read the lyrics out loud, if you were to just read them, >> Yeah. >> it would be like, >> "Yeah, >> oh my god, this isn't just nonsense. This is heresy." >> Yeah. >> Like these things aren't these aren't true. Like I'm saying things and now I'm getting people to sing things because it sounds good that aren't true. And then when they go h when they leave the, you know, they got their spiritual skittles from the TED talk and all that and all that and they're going back to their car, they're not humming your sermon. They're humming the songs that were sung, right? Like they're they're humming the chorus >> again. And >> and again, if the chorus is, you know, basically Jesus is my boyfriend, God's really into me. Like, aren't I awesome? >> He breaks he breaks chains. >> Yeah. I mean, >> he he tears down walls like Jericho. And so this like this big thing I've got going on with my girlfriend that's like really bad. God's going to tear this wall down. >> That's just my Goliath, right? And >> he's gonna beat he's Yeah. This is my Goliath. >> And that'll inform how we read this. Yeah. >> Like how we read this Bible because we read this through lenses, right? The lens could have came from, you know, your first pastor. It could have came from your cultural identity that you've taken. It could be any of those different things. But then you're going to read the the Bible through this lens of okay, what does the parable of the sewer, how does that show that Jesus just man, he loves me. He would just he would just I'm I would be his best friend. He's the coolest. Like you know Jonah and the whale, right? >> Mhm. >> I don't see myself in that story. So it's probably not for me. So we're going to keep that allocart Bible thing going where somehow somehow someway all this isn't just one massive story about God's redeem redemption plan his rescue plan for humanity and then we're not going to look for that plan and that narrative when we're reading Obadiah right we're not going to be looking for that plan we're looking for us in the story and it's like bro this is for us it's not about us and then but again the song that but wait a minute the song that I just sang the last four songs I just sang like they were about me >> and like how this makes me feel and like how this is, you know, pointing my heart and all those different things. And, you know, if you don't cry during worship, then, you know, something's broken. You may not be saved. >> You seem like you followed me to some of these men's groups I've spoken at. >> Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, I kind [laughter] of got a sense of your style from from how you write. But, but part of it is it you need people to stop long enough to where they can evaluate what they're seeing because, you know, the same thing with the pastor. Is it is it 45 seconds of Bible reading followed by 45 minutes of personal anecdotes that try to make you laugh because if I entertain you you'll come back next week and if I entertain you entertain you enough times in a row you might actually donate some money to us so that we can build our next MC church for cash like okay or are you faithfully expositing the word of God going through books of the Bible a verse at a time trying to explain to your flock the the cultural context everything that will make the scripture come alive. And is there a gospel call? Is there a call to repentance that you don't have to be preaching on the resurrection? You could be in 1 Thessalonians 1, which is where we're at at our church right now, but is there an explicit gospel call for you to repent of your sin and to place your faith into Christ? And it's like all the how to be a better husband and how to, you know, uh, honor God with your finances and how to, you know, have how to have the best sex life ever as a married Christian couple and all that. All that's fine. Like, I'll get that from Right Now Media. I'll get that from some YouTube channel. I'll get that from a podcast. I don't need it from a pastor on Sunday morning. >> Yeah, I agree with all that. Let me take one word out of what you said and think about it. You said flock. Flock, which is which is how a body of believers are are thought of. That's the that's the illustration. Sheep, shepherd, flock. So, a church will be will will be faithful in so much as the church knows who the church is. Well, what what does that mean? Well, we have lost the idea of what church means. We've lost the idea of flock. That that word is not used anymore. Flock. Yeah. >> Like no one says, "Okay, flock. Uh, listen up." because they can't cuz they don't know who the flock is. They don't know how many people are are just floating visiting. They've been here for 2 weeks. Now, there's absolutely nothing wrong. All churches want visitors, obviously. But that's not that's not why we do church. That's not why we gather. We gather to equip the saints. That's right. Who are the saints? The flock. Who's the flock? You should know because they are not a church if they're not believers. If they're not saved, they're not born again and they gather regularly, then they're not a church. >> Yeah. It's not belong until you believe. It's no like Yeah. Believe makes you belong. >> Yeah. And fine if you want to if you want to attend. Like I can't say that enough. Sure. But that you're not the church. If you're just an attender, >> you're not the church. Part of the body. You're not part of the body. >> So when your your church is first Thessalonians, is that what you said? >> That's what we're in right now. >> Okay. So, so that's equipping the saints, equipping that specific gathering. And it's not this, we're not talking about random Christians that the universal church, capital C, you could say, is made manifest only. It's the only way it's made manifest is by thousands of lower C local churches throughout time and history and geography. Yours being one of them. And that that specific body that you're in is growing up and understanding who God is through specifically the preaching of the word in First Thessalonians and singing hymns back to him, administering, you know, the the ordinances, Lord's supper, baptism. That's the purpose. And so they're being built up. I remember when um when Charlie Kirk was killed, I got these random texts from people. Maybe maybe you could attest to this, but people like from high school, people I hadn't talked to in years. Yeah. Or suddenly, hey, I don't know if this is still your number, but I just this whole Charlie Kurt things really got me thinking, I want to know my Bible. >> How How do I do that? Where where do I go? Where's like an online Bible school? Or is there like a place? And I I was always thinking, you're revealing to me that you're in an unhealthy church that's missing equipping you to know who God is through his word. Isn't that that's always been the purpose of the church for Christians to gather a specific body of believers, a flock to gather and sit under his word and walk alongside life together. side by side all the spiritual gifts are used in unison in context of the local church and if you're saying how do I learn my Bible then you just said my pastor's not doing his job well and also so yes I experienced so uh by the time this comes out it'll be around the one-year anniversary when he was killed on September the 10th of last year but you never can really know if you're in a revival when you're in it kind of one of those things that you can only really define for Sure. When you're looking back cuz there was that Asbury thing that happened a couple years ago. Was that a revival? I don't know. It felt like an artificially long worship service because when they needed to move it off campus uh because there was a logistical problem in the town that they were in. They were like trying to get you to show up and they incentivized you with Jesus chicken sandwiches. I was like if revival is going on, we don't need sandwiches with pickles. I'm just going to throw that out there. But if we get back to to the overall point of people, it was like after COVID, this happened with with our church because, you know, built on to our church, this this church that's been just kind of small East Edmond church for 40 years and all that. All a sudden, hockey sticks. You might be like, well, you know, if you know, it's filled of dreams. If you build it, they will come. It's like, no, no, no. If you build it, they might come, right? Like that's that's your best case scenario. >> Yeah. >> But there were people that were going to these churches that were milk churches, for lack of a better phrase. >> Yeah. Milky churches. They were ve very very entertained including their children when they dropped them off at children's thing. They had all the video games. They had all the best little things. The worship was spectacular. All the session musicians that don't even believe this stuff, man. They play really really well. >> You know, the the guy up there, he's engaging. He's funny. Like he gives you a nugget to chew on, but again, it's just a Skittles. So, it's like, "All right, you're going to be done with that Skittles. We'll see you next week." And people were like, "Oh, no. I don't know the Bible. I don't know any of this." And then leading into the Charlie Kirk thing, it's interesting how all these things are are kind of coalesing with the time that we're in. Uh Ligonier and Crossway, and I've said this a billion times, and y'all are just going to have to deal with it. I'm going to keep talking about and the 2025 state of theology, Lifeway, the publisher, and RC Sproul's uh ministry, Legionir got together. >> In order to be a part of this survey, >> you had to answer, I think it was four or five questions in the affirmative, like the Bible is, you know, my highest authority. Uh Jesus is the only way to faith. You know, it's important for me to share that. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Then you got to participate in this in this thing and you got asked several dozen questions. But then you look at the data. Uh around 50% of evangelical respondents believe, yeah, you know, people sin here or there, but we're we're all pretty good. We're we're born y >> good. >> Yep. >> About 50% of respondents, only 50% believe that marriage is between one man and one woman for life. And then about 50% of respondents said that yes, God accepts the worship of Christians, but he also accepts the worship of Judaism and Islam >> and other religions. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So they just present the data and then you get to surmise what does this mean? How can we apply it? How can we use it? And the only thing that I can come to is that we own Bibles but we don't read them. >> Yeah. >> Because if you read this and then you were asked >> not just the open-ended question, what is marriage? Oh, it's a it's a covenantal relationship between one man and one woman uh for life. Okay. So, two men? No. Uh two women? No. Two men and a and a woman? Nope. Uh hey, so uh is there are there multiple ways to God? Well, you'd be like, well, no. Even Jesus said that, you know, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and the only pathway to the father is through me. Okay. Well, so that's that's a no. Um well, are we all just generally good? Some people just sin. Some people bar city sin, right? we put those people in prison. Uh but aren't we all generally good? It's like no, you were brought forth in iniquity. Um and you know, we we were born into sin. We were born into our federal head, Adam. And our only transfer option is transferring from in Adam to in Christ. That's our only option. You get that from reading it. Now, it is your responsibility to read it on your own. However, if you are a shepherd of a flock, the writer of Hebrews tells us that you have extra judgment. Not only do you have extra applaudits and high fives and thumbs ups coming your way, you also have to give an account not only for your life, not only for how you've been the head of your household, but how you have taught the flock. So if all you're teaching them is come back for your shot of milk next week, you're not teaching your flock how to feed themselves because what the what they get lulled into is, hey, I don't need to study the Bible. My pastor is going to study the Bible this week and he's just going to give us a summary on Sunday. So I don't I don't really need to do it. And disciplehip's not really important here. We don't really do that. We just say, "Hey, join a disciplehip group that's in your zip code." It's like, okay, what are they doing there? Mainly hanging out, celebrating kids' birthdays, and you know, some people it turns into a swinging club. That's a thing. Uh, you know, that that happens. Like, it's an excuse to, you know, drop the kids off at church and then go go party. >> Um, I'm not saying all [clears throat] home groups are that way, obviously. But, um, this all comes back to a crippling level of biblical illiteracy. >> Yeah. and a crippling amount of pastors, some of which who aren't even believers obviously. >> Yeah. >> That are just performing and entertaining these people, right? Tickling their ears. >> Yeah. >> And so I'm curious cuz we we got to wind to a close here at some point. >> Oh man. >> What is Yeah. I mean, I'd love to kind of keep this going, but here you are like, you know, how dare you get a [laughter] ticket to fly on an airplane back home, but you also have a kid's birthday today that we need to we need to take care of. What is going to be your role? Cuz I already know I'm doing. I'm 900 some odd episodes into this thing and if you're tired of hearing my opinions, you were gone a long time ago. But you with where you're at >> in your post country music life, >> uh getting a seminary degree, serving a local body of believers in a more formal capacity than just a general member, what is going to be your role in helping bring people back to this book in terms of pointing their attention where it needs to be pointed? >> Man, I love that question. And you know, when I first go back to when I left touring and I started going out and um and on [clears throat] a side note, I also want to say think about me leaving touring and now all my Sundays are available. So now I could take my family. Can you imagine going and sitting like in a Milky church where you're just it's like >> it's like I left that for this. >> I I'm being entertained after leaving entertainment. That makes no sense for me. No. I'm like give it to me. Give me the word of God and tell me what to do, you know? So anyway, after that time, I'm I'm thinking, what am I going to do? I'm going to I guess I'll try to write some books. I'll write I'll start with a memoir, tell them my story. Um get out, speak at a few men's groups. Seems that seems like a natural step is go from, you know, the entertainment stage to the to the gospel soulkeeping stage, you know. And so I started getting some like, you know, First Baptist, you know, no man's land, Georgia to go and speak to these men. And I was starting to do that always, always making sure I was back on Sunday for my own my own church. But man, my heart started breaking. I'd get on an airplane because I would I would speak at the say whatever iron sh [laughter] meat meat fest you know like yeah um you know what whatever hunting fest thing >> and like and afterward I would meet these guys and they would come up and they would start telling me their stories like broken stories like hard stories divorces child loss job loss abuse from their fathers what whatever it is. And I would ask them about their Bible reading. Usually it was poor or non-existent. And then I would kind of I'd get a lot of times I give him my number, text me, text me in the morning. Let's talk through this. Then I talk to the next guy. This guy leaves. I'd get back on that plane the next day and I just go, I'd feel broken. Lord, you're going to have to send men to disciple these guys. They're not being discipled. They don't know you. They don't know the word of God. They're lost. They're hurting. They're broken. this this is bad >> and you can't disciple them. You don't live there, you know. >> And sometimes some of the worst ones I would keep up texting and it just slowly fades. It always does. And I was lamenting about this because it was happening often. I was lamenting about this with another guy and he goes, "Oh, that's cuz you have a pastor's heart." And I was like, "Oh, that's a thing." Like some guys could go and do it and spread spread and evangelize. And then there's guys that God built different like me. He built He didn't build me to consistently do that. I can just like this guy could also disciple but he built me to stay like I'm a stayer. And so then I was even in at Southern Seminary. I was an apologetics major and changed it to pastoral ministry to an indiv because I recognized God designed my heart to stay with a men for whatever reason. Not not necessarily because I chose it or anything. I just that's where I feel that's where I feel more effective is to go, "All right, bro. This this porn thing, where where do we stand? I'm going to text you every morning. We're going to meet on Tuesdays. Coffee. I'm gonna get your location so you don't go to that place that you're not supposed to go. You share it with me. I'm gonna get your IP address. We're gonna like we're gonna I'm gonna get you a flip phone. Like we're going to attack this, but we're going to do it together. >> Yeah, >> I'm with you, brother. I love you. Side by side, shoulder-to-shoulder. We're going to do this with the Lord's help. And then, hey man, um I didn't see you Sunday. Um I'm going to stop by for lunch. You are you around? You doing okay? You've been a little quiet this week? like I love to do that. So I keep it there, like I said, there's seven of us. There's about 200 I think we have about 260 members in our church, seven pastors. So we just spread this load and um and none are lost. Hebrews 13, you brought up that that the the leader will be held accountable for the souls that he's been given. >> So first of all, you'd have to start with don't you at least need to know them? >> Yeah. >> Know who they are? which is which is very scary in a big church if if you will be held accountable for those individual souls entrusted to you and you don't know him. I'm I I'm kind of at a place in my life where I just don't have anything to prove. I don't I don't need to think of myself as like a big church builder or like a big church guy or like people always want to know like how many people are in your church, Granger. I bet it's huge, you know, like yeah, we are pretty big. About 260. >> Yeah. and they're like, "I thought you were going to say 26,000, you know, but but but I I want I I don't care about that stuff. I just want I want to I want to know my guys and their wives and and I I want to want to be able to faithfully shepherd them to the word of God." And so in and so that's I think that's my answer. Everything else um I do have a little podcast. I do have this still have this radio show. I do get out and occasionally write books and occasionally speak. I do other things. But I think the one thing that will outlast all of those things is I want to I want to shepherd people in their souls. And I want to be that old guy. I if the Lord wills, I want to be that, you know, Ji Packer. I want to be that like 86y old guy that's just still just depending on the word of God. Like Lord, I need you today. I need you one. Will you sustain me one more day? Like I want to be that guy. >> I It's It's funny you said that toward the end because I was even going to ask you and then you basically said that's what you would be cuz you know I'm I'm I've had the opportunity to interview some guys that are in their fourth quarter that have been serving the Lord for decades and they're still like you know when you're talking to Max Luc and talking about his approach to to ministry and his approach to the word. uh Chuck Swindoll when you're talking about a guy in his 90s that you know is he's warning young pastors about the things that could take him out. >> Yeah. >> And he's like look sex could take you out. The the desire for money could take you out. The you know the pride you know can take you out. Like the you know you have so many men legitimate genuine Christians that are in the fourth quarter of life and they are pouring into no one. M >> there are young believers cuz again it's not how many years you've been a follower of Christ it's how many hours right so someone could be younger than you and further along in the faith and sanctification that's true but if you're in the fourth quarter of your life and you've been following Christ for 30 40 50 60 years something like that and you don't have any Timothy's >> none there there's not a a kid in the neighborhood you know a kid who lost his dad in an accident or because he got divorced or because he left and he's in the church And you're not sitting down with that kid at at a coffee shop or in a Sunday school room like showing him how to read the Bible, showing him how to study it, getting him prepared cuz he's about to get married, getting him prepared cuz he's about to become a dad or, you know, he's already a dad. The baby's just currently geographically located inside of his wife's body, you know, and you're you're not you're not doing any of that. You're just you're fishing. >> Yeah. >> Okay. You're hunting. You're you're you're you're watching television. >> Yeah. >> You're going on another cruise. I'm not anti any of that stuff. But if that becomes your fourth quarter, >> may it not be so. >> Can we finish well please? >> And so that's that's the thing. And again, as you know, having an athletic background and all of that, like you know, my athletic prowess right now is basically consumed with jiu-jitsu. Well, if you're in a six-minute match and you win 5 minutes and 50 seconds of that match and then you turn your brain off, like there's one kid in particular, uh, you know, this great great guy at my gym. There's been so many times where I'll roll rounds with him. His name's Ethan and he it's like trying to wrestle a mongoose that's on fire. Like that's what this kid is. He's so good. And the number of times he has submitted me in the last 5 to 10 seconds of a round is not insignificant because I've weathered the storm. I've imposed my will. I've taken his best shot and I I get the ding ding ding 10 minutes or 10 seconds left in the round timer thing and I take a mental breath >> even if I don't take a physical one. and he exploits that little hole. So for some of you guys out there listening, you're in the fourth quarter and Satan is still prowling around trying to consume you and destroy you. He's waiting for you to take a breath. He's waiting for you to settle. He's waiting for you to sit in that rocking chair, right? You have to finish well. You can't finish well if you stray away from the book. You can't finish well if you stray away from the body of believers. You can't finish well if you're not stewarding the resources well. If you're a five talent guy acting like a one talent guy, this is not going to work well for you and you >> That's right. You will not finish well. >> Um, last question of the day. A little bit of a of a heavy place to go, but >> you went you went here in the book and I was I told you this last night. I was absolutely floored by what I read. It was later on in the book. I think the context is you did some speaking engagement and then it's Q&A time and I believe this woman asked you um if you could go back to the that morning that y'all lost river would you stop it from happening and your immediate reaction was no >> your immediate answer was no I think you even said in the book there was like an audible gasp >> uh in the room and I I've experienced that before where something I've said gave people like >> like what like the shock of the misdirect was so extreme and I felt the exact same thing as if I were in the room like what what you wouldn't go back and save your boy you wouldn't go back and undo what was done you wouldn't go back and tell Satan you can kick rocks not today like and you said no I wouldn't do that and so you gave your reason in the book but you know I'd like you to tell our audience kind of what your answer was and how you even got to a place where you could confidently say that say it with your chest and stand by it. >> Yeah. I wonder if I can connect that idea also with what we're just talking about with the call the call for fourth quarter men to to disciple >> because in in in all of the Christian walk um you and I could sit at this table all day long and we would be correct to say men step up get into your Bible sing louder you with congregational singing make sure you're you're in a church stop coddling sin stop thinking of heaven flippantly like you're just it's just a reunion with grandpa we could say all these things and we'd be right in all those things. But but you could check all those boxes and still miss him for who he is, for the the the treasure, like we said, treasure hidden in a field that a man covers up and in his joy. He goes and sells all that he has. You can miss him the infinite value of who he is and the infinite joy that goes with following your plan of obedience, the your design. And so when you think about Matthew 28, as we've been kind of been alluding all around it, go therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them, you know, and teaching them to obey or observe all that I've commanded. And he Jesus says, "Behold, I will be with you to the end of the age." So there is this throughout the Bible, there's this strand that we could easily miss of when we're functioning in obedience as believers born again with new hearts flowing from what Christ did on the cross, we feel good. >> Yeah. >> We feel joy. So for the man out there that's chasing all the other things and we say, "Hey, disciple men." We're not saying begrudgingly. Yeah. We're saying disciple men. You're going to sleep better, man. >> Yeah. >> You're going to wake up rejuvenated. You won't need caffeine to make you feel good after that one brother finally turns around and goes, "I see it now. I've been stuck in this and I you showed me through the word that I of who I am now. I see it. I see that I'm a sinner. I see my need for for for the Lord." And I sometimes I think in my head I think what would it be like in heaven for one person to come up and go it was you told me about him. God you used you. That thought like even in like the a jungle of Latin America that thought like that that bubble of joy just drives my my zeal drives my ambition. So all all of this this we need to be driven by this love to obey and the overflow of that love to obey because we love him because he loved us first. >> Yeah. >> Is also we're replenished with this joy for doing it. It's never like oh this hate I hate obeying but I know I need to cuz I'm a Christian. Like it's never that. And so you take my whole life now and you go Granger all this you have now all this what the Lord has shown you what all that he stripped away materially and then what what he has shown you and the path that you're on what how he's revealed himself and and the all the the the men that you can now pour into freely and show them the Lord of the Lord of the universe and what he's done to redeem men just like them and the feeling you and the the rejuvenation and the then now the new vision of I'm now I think of an of an old Allan Jackson God bless him up there with that you know stick supporting him and he's out there just cranking out those songs that's the same guy at the beginning of this podcast I said I start first started singing his songs that's my trajectory >> up there just like >> like just like I'll do one more tour or do I think of like a Ji Packer just goes Lord sustain me one more today by your word. Give me give me one more. Send me one more lost soul, you know. And you and then you say all that I just said, it all hinges on this loss of river. So you want to go back and take everything the Lord has done in his ultimate sovereignty knowing river is good. River is in the is in the hands of the Lord with the good father. You want to go back selfishly so you could now go back into tour where like where would I be? It's a Thursday night as we record this Thursday I mean Thursday morning I would be what in Wisconsin right now sitting on the tour bus on yet another state fair or something. I'm going to go trade all that to have my son back. I wouldn't dare think that I'm in some kind of place to tell the Lord that I know better. That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It doesn't mean it doesn't suck. It doesn't mean I hate sin and I hate death and I hate that we lost Riv. But do you think I would trade all that? It would be it would be um it would be unfaithful for me to say, "Yeah, I would I'd go back just to just to have my my son for me." Can't think of a better way to leave it. Thanks for coming, man. >> Thanks, brother. >> Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] Heat. Heat.