GARY SINISE | Graceful Warrior (Ep. 996)

Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31days to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31days. Start your reset today. Hey guys, real quick, I just wanted to remind you that we have an official Undaunted Life store. You can go to shop.undaunted.life or check it out in the show notes. Guys, we're always going to have hats and shirts and a bunch of other awesome stuff. Go there, support us, wear the mission. Again, it's shop.undaunted.life. Check out the link in the show notes. shop.undaunted.life. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys, we've got a special guest on the podcast today. His name is Gary Sinise. So, he is an Oscar-nominated actor. He's also won Emmys, Golden Globes, and Screen Actors Guild Awards. And he is best known for his role as Lieutenant Dan in Forrest Gump. He's also the recipient of the Presidential Citizens Medal and the New York Times best-selling author of his book, Grateful American. And today, we're going to be talking a lot about his new book, and it's this one right here, Graceful Warrior, The True Story of a Son, a Father, and a Family Who Carried Each Other Through. So, this episode, this interview, could basically be cut in half. And in the first half, I decided to focus in on this book. And if you're not aware, he lost his son to a very rare cancer when his son was in his early 30s. And so, you know, I felt like, okay, we could start off with the well, you interested in acting, and okay, how'd you get the Forrest Gump job and you know, all that kind of stuff and we do some of that towards the end, but I wanted to go ahead and make sure that we did a sufficient job of honoring Mac. I will tell you it's a it's rough. The first half of this is is pretty rough. He gets choked up several times. I get choked up several times. There's just so much raw emotion here. Even though it's been a while since since his son Mac passed, but I can even tell you and I told him this in the interview like the book ends of this book and me reading it was tears. The first line of the first part of the book, the very first line of the book, I started crying. And I ended it uh crying as well. I mean especially if you're a father of a son, I mean it's it's a rough one, but I think it's very very important for you because of the mindset lessons that we can learn from his son Mac from Gary himself, the faith element, their faith in Christ that really sustained them through the things that they that were going on at that moment cuz it was more than just his son's sickness. And then on the back half we get into the other stuff. We do talk about you know, when he knew he was going to make it as an actor, how he got the Forrest Gump job, did they know while they were filming Forrest Gump is this going to be a hit because I mean it won six Oscars. It was a huge hit in the box office like it it launched so many careers and really established his career as a Hollywood actor and those types of things, but then I also did ask him about Jenny. Cuz if you've listened to any of our Forging Table episodes, it came up not that long ago. The ultimate villain in movie history might be Jenny from Forrest Gump, right? And so I I threw that fan theory at him and I think you'll be very interested in his answer. And then we asked him about the stuff going on with his foundation, the the Gary Sinise Foundation and how you guys can get involved and help them with the work they're doing for wounded veterans. Guys, I just yeah, it was a tremendous privilege to have Gary on the show and I'm just so happy to share my time with him with you. So without further ado let's get into it. Gary Sinise, welcome to Undaunted Life a Man's Podcast. >> Thanks so much for having me. Good to be with you. >> It is spectacular to chat with you. We've kind of circled the wagons on each other for a while now, but we finally got you nailed down to come on the show. But I just got to be honest, when I was preparing this interview, Gary, typically it can be pretty straightforward, especially when there's a book coming out. It's like, all right, we'll just kind of follow the book and let that be the scaffolding for what we're going to discuss. But it's like, okay, with you it's like, okay, do we discuss acting, you know, how the Steppenwolf stuff, do we discuss the the foundation, do we discuss music, do we discuss Grateful American, you know, the book that put you on a best-seller list, right? But as I finished the book, that is really the center point of what we talked about today, I I I came to the decision that the best way to honor you would be to honor the book that you wrote, which would also be honoring Mac. And so, if you're okay with starting there, we'll get to some of the other stuff a little bit later, but you good with go ahead and just diving right into the book? >> Oh, yes, absolutely. Thank you. >> All right. So, the book is right here, guys. You heard me talk about it in the intro, but it's Graceful Warrior, the true story of a son, a father, and a family who carried each other through. And so, again, I kind of knew what the book was going to be about, Gary, and you know, I I read quite a few books and I'm you know, I'm moved by things and I'm a father of sons myself. But I was reading the first line of the overture, the very first line of the book, and it's my son, oh my son. And for me, Gary, I immediately began began to weep because I knew what was coming. And I had the same experience as I ended the book, right? Sitting there in my house by myself, just just reading that whenever while everyone else was asleep. And so, I know it's it's it's going to be a tough one today, but here we are. This is why you wrote the book. So, Gary, why this book, why now, why you? >> Well, thanks, Kyle. I'm I'm glad you're able to to read it. It was a hard one to write. You know, it's a challenging story, but it's a hopeful story, I I believe, and there was a there was a purpose for me to write it. Um I I think, you know, personally, there you know, there was a great purpose for me to write it for myself. I just needed to express a lot of these things that were that had happened, and I needed to go back through it, and I needed to as much as you kind of say you don't want to relive certain things, I wanted to remember everything about my son and everything about our family and how we pulled together during a different difficult time, and I'll tell you what sort of inspired me initially to to get into the book. It It's a difficult story in some aspects because it's a story about loss and and uh losing our son to a very very rare cancer called chordoma, and this is a cancer that um I mean, so rare that m- it's a one-in-a-million kind of cancer in the United States, right? Maybe uh 300 people are diagnosed with this cancer per year. Um about 70% of the time they can go in and remove the tumor like other cancers, and they can cure it, they can get rid of it. But 30% of the time that it comes back, and that's what happened to Max. So, you're you're talking about maybe 90 people per year in the US that are dealing with what he was dealing with. So, of course, there's no pharmaceutical company developing drugs specifically to fight that particular cancer because it's it's not profitable, you know? I mean, it costs millions and millions of dollars to develop a drug, you know? And uh you you one that only 90 people a cancer that only 90 people is are dealing with is not going to get a pharmaceutical company to to really focus on it. >> Yeah. >> Yet, there are people out there that are really trying to find drugs and targets in the cells the chordoma cells that are also targets in other cancers. So, we were very fortunate that we had a foundation called the Chordoma Foundation that had been started by a young man who had chordoma and it was successfully removed for for him and but they could not guarantee that it wasn't going to come back and at the time that he had his tumor removed, there was virtually nothing going on with regards to chordoma. So, he started a foundation to raise money to fund research and bring scientists together and and patients and give patients a community and all of that and that became very very helpful to us and all of that became, you know, all of that became part of our fight, you know, the the the fight that that we were in during this difficult time. Um Mac was diagnosed in 2018 with a tumor this size on his tailbone. He was having a lot of pain. He was a excellent drummer, just a exceptional player. But, you know, he was telling me, "Dad, you know, it's uncomfortable when I'm playing. I'm I'm I can't sit down comfortably and and it turned out that there was a giant tumor on his sacrum. And that began our fight. Uh a diff- a difficult fight. And, you know, it was a fight that, you know, I mean, we can talk more specifically about some of the things that I the stories that I tell in the book about fighting that. But, your original question was why did I decide to write the book? >> [clears throat] >> And after unfortunately we lost Mac on January 5th, 2024 and 6 weeks after we lost him, I posted a story uh about him on our website. And up until that point, you know, I'm a I'm in the public eye. I I I do interviews all the time and I'm all I play concerts for people and and I'm always out there doing something. Yet, behind the scenes, this was going on, this cancer fight. And I never talked publicly about what our family was going through. But, I felt because Mac was a dedicated member of the team at the Gary Sinise Foundation. And that we had a page on the Chordoma Foundation website dedicated to him where people could send him messages. And if they wanted to donate, they could donate. I felt at first I owed the Chordoma Foundation uh donors and and people who had sent messages in I I had to let them know what had happened. That Mac had not survived. And so, I wrote a small story there. And then I thought we have so many generous and dedicated donors at the Gary Sinise Foundation where Mac worked and loved the mission. That I'm going to post a story on the Gary Sinise Foundation website. And I did that 6 weeks after we lost him. And the response to that was just it was overwhelming. The the amount of people that wrote in and sent in messages. The you know, it went viral and and you know, millions of people saw the story. I ended up doing interviews and you know, people wanting to talk to me about it. And the people that would write in and leave these messages, Kyle, would would tell me, you know, I lost my son. And I haven't talked about it to anybody. And I've been in such pain ever since. And somehow your sharing your story about what you went through and and Mack makes me want to talk about my son and what makes me want to share some of these things, get some of these things out. And I realized that that okay, sharing the story is, you know, it it's it's helping some people. So, I thought there was a deeper explora- exploration for me. And something that I thought I would do to hopefully help people through their own difficult challenges and certainly to help me heal my own broken heart, you know, by sharing the story. >> Well, Gary, as even as you were saying that, as I was reading through the book, it felt like a deeper exploration or a masterclass, if you will, on mindset. Um not just your mindset because even your bride was sick during this time period. There was, you know, uh Guys, just go get the book. It's in the show notes. You can get into all the details. You talk about the ups and downs of health. You talk about yourself getting COVID what, three, four, five times during a a short period. Uh you know, uh there was water damage in the house and there was a move and then y'all y'all went from California to Tennessee. There was stuff happening all over the place, right? And it's like a hurricane yeah. >> a hurricane. >> Well, and I you're I'm reading a book, so I'm assuming there wasn't an exhaustive list of all the crap that y'all were trying to wade through. But the mindset thing is is what I really keyed in on for you, but even especially for Mack, because yes, he went into remission, but then y'all got the news the cancer is back, right? But the ability to stay hopeful because a lot of people don't understand, Gary, that a lot of times the caregiver of the person that's sick is sick actually passes away before the person that's that's sick because of the burden that they feel doing something that's outside of their their wheelhouse and and different things like that. But I want to read a quote from the book that I feel like will elucidate a lot of Mack's mindset. Cancer is heartbreaking, but Mack showed it doesn't have to be soul breaking. But then a little bit later in the book, you talked about how on the inside flyleaf of the Bible, this is what Mack wrote, "God will be glorified in your continued persistence to be close to him regardless of circumstance." And on the page next to it, he scrolled a list of his favorite Psalms and passages from the book of Job, the difficult section of scripture where so many bad things happened to a good person. And next to a reference from Job, Mack wrote these words original to him, "Even in the darkness, I still search and hunger for God." So, if you read through the book of Job, obviously, Job takes, you know, a three-piece and a soda right to the face in every aspect of life, you know, he's got terrible friends, his wife's nagging him and all that, but God is still good. Then you read through the Psalms. You'll read a Psalm of David and you'll read one line, right? Or I guess one stanza. And it's like, wait, is this dude schizophrenic? It's like he goes from this tremendous lament to overwhelming praise for the sovereign God of the universe. But then you fast forward to if anybody in that moment wanted to be mad at God and shake his fist, right? And do all those different things, it would have been Mack for what he was going through at the age he was going through it and how how bad it got at different points. He just He just never succumbed to that, right? That's how you get the title of Graceful Warrior. So, I just want you to talk a little bit about mindset and what you've been able to learn just from his example. >> If if he ever did, Kyle, he didn't he didn't show us. >> That's right. >> You know, I mean, I'm I'm sure there must have been those times where Mack was just another thing is happening that he's got to deal with because it was a just a series of one thing after another for five and a half years. And I was trying to push through each one of those moments, right? So that there may have been those times when he was alone or something like that where he just wondered, you know, why this was happening, but he never expressed it to us like that. He I don't have any recollections of Mack, you know, angry or One one time and I I think I write about it in the book. There was one time where my wife had several spine surgeries, you know, she has all her own physical and health challenges throughout the book. And all of a sudden she has to have what is going to be her sixth or seventh spine surgery and she comes in and tells Mack and he's sitting he's laying in his hospital bed in the room and he had a glass of water and he could barely, you know, he couldn't really move his right arm very well because of the surgeries on his spine and the nerve damage. But he got he got really frustrated and hit the glass of water and it spilled. He just couldn't stand the thought of his mom going in for another spine surgery throughout his young life through high school and everything his mom went through one surgery after another dealing with her spine. And so she was in and out of the hospital a lot during his youth when he was still able to function and go out there and do things. And he remembers the difficulty of feeling all those things. That was one of the only times that maybe throughout the the cancer portion of the story that he got you know, he got you know, it got him. The rest of the time he was just leading the way. I mean and I I needed that as the primary caregiver who was dealing with, you know, not only Mac but my wife, my dad had a stroke, you know, my mom, all this stuff. And I was you know, the the primary sort of general commanding general here trying to trying to come up with a battle plan and and get the mission accomplished. And just watching the way Mac was doing it just gave me so much strength. And he helped me to persevere through those very very challenging and difficult times. No question. I don't know, his faith was very strong. Um he had a he had a strong faith and he like you just read, that's that's just a little bit of what's in the book that I found. I mean some of that some of that you read there were things I found in his journal that he had written you know, you know, before he found out he had cancer. Uh when he was really exploring a lot of things. So uh he was he was our theologian in the family for sure and really taught us quite a bit about perseverance and faith and and courage. And I was doing an interview at one point with somebody after he died and I said he was just a graceful warrior. And that just stuck with me because that's who he was. >> Just a a calm solemnity about him. I mean you wrote in the book and talked about yeah, he dug into Job and the Psalms but also Chesterton and C.S. Lewis and some of those different people and we're just really trying to absorb as much of that as possible and I've had friends go through some pretty dark valleys. You know, they're they seem to be in the darkest part of the of the valley of the shadow of death but the whole point of that Psalm is not that God delivers us from the valley. It's that when we're there, he's there with us. That's the entire point of that and so you you you keep coming back to that. But and again for for all the different details, guys can go check out the book. It's there in the show notes. But there was a letter that he wrote to the family that you guys read after his passing and you know, you talk about the passing and all that in the book. And so I feel like the the most honoring thing to do would be to actually read this this this section of the letter in its entirety as as hard as going to be probably for both of us. So here it goes. And Dad, at first it was embarrassing to say Forrest Gump was my favorite movie but it actually became my all-time favorite. I eventually understood how powerful Lieutenant Dan was to veterans when I couldn't use my legs either. You captured the feeling of helplessness so authentically during the scene when you pull Forrest out of the bed and then keep repeating, "What am I going to do now?" You just never know what certain moments in your life are going to set up for you or set you up for. Better yet, what those moments are going to prepare you for. Some amazing moments prepare you for the harsh moments in life and some really horrible moments can prepare you for the amazing moments. That is how I understand God's divine providence to work. Now, no father should ever have to deal with the loss of their son. God knows this fact intimately but we have to trust that God let these realities take place in order for our preparation for a stronger love and wisdom to take root in us. We'll both understand one day. I love you, Dad. I'm so glad I was able to be your son. >> Yeah, and imagine imagine you're we're sitting there at during the the mass, the funeral mass and the homily or the the eulogy I asked Max's sort of spiritual mentor is this Catholic therapist uh to do the the the eulogy and he pulls that letter out that Mack had written and he wrote one to my wife and one to my each one to his sisters and then one to kind of family and friends and we're sitting there unknowing at all about any of those letters and he reads that while I'm sitting there >> [clears throat] >> you know, at at the funeral and it was so I I mean just imagine sitting there hearing that. He didn't read all the letters, but he read that >> [snorts] >> he read that one uh be because and he read some of the one to my wife as well because he knew the the challenging stuff that we were facing and that I was trying to take off his plate, right? For for 5 and 1/2 years I tried my best to take the cancer away. So so Mac could just have a day, you know, where he wasn't thinking about that stuff. He wasn't talking to the doctors. He wasn't talking to the nurses. He wasn't planning the next treatment. He wasn't dealing with it What's the next drug going to be? It I I did all that. And this uh this friend David who read that letter, he knew he knew that you know, I I tried to carry that for for my son and and that I would I would benefit from hear- hearing that letter at that time. >> Uh I can imagine how hard that would be, but I would agree with with his wisdom there. And I mean, a lot of people are are goals people. I'm a standards person. It's like, what standard can we keep? And I mean, for all the fathers listening this right now, if you try to hold a standard as a father to where your kid can say without a hint of irony someday, I'm so glad I was able to be your son. I'm so glad I was able to be your daughter. Because I mean, I know from the parents' perspective, when I pray over my 6-year-old and 4-year-old boys, like I want them to hear me say, "God, thank you so much for giving me James. Thank you so much for giving me Elijah." I want them to hear me say that, right? But one day I want them to actually mean, not in some sort of kid way where hey, you're the guy that feeds me and keeps me living indoors, but like in a real way, like I'm so glad I got to be your son. Um now, last week as I knew we were going to be we were going to be chatting this week, I was like, "I haven't seen Forrest Gump in a while. Let me go throw that on." And so you kind of remember the gist of the story, but you you forget some of the details and oh yeah, there was that scene. But I was I was struck by a [snorts] scene that a lot of people have been struck by, but perhaps for a different reason now. And so Lieutenant Dan has has gone to work for Forrest because, you know, Bubba died, You know, Forrest was going to be the first mate on Bubba's shrimping boat and that didn't work out cuz Bubba died in Vietnam, but now Forrest is the captain of a ship. He's, you know, taking care of it all by himself at this point, but Lieutenant Dan said, "If you become a shrimp boat captain, I'll come down there and be your first mate." And so, he makes good on his promise and they're doing this whole thing. They're They're struggling. But then there's the scene of, you know, Lieutenant Dan way up high on one of the the sails or something like that and there's a big storm happening and Forrest is just trying to keep them from sinking and Lieutenant Dan is just shaking his fist at God. You know, you and me, like let's go. Like, you know, only one of us can win. And then a little bit later in the movie, there's a scene where, you know, Lieutenant Dan, you you jump in the water and you're backstroking through the water and Forrest Gump, you can hear him, you know, narrating. You know, he never actually said so, but I think he made his peace with God. And so, Gary, I'm just I'm curious for you. Have you made peace with God for taking your son away from you on his timeline and not yours? >> Yes, my my [clears throat] peace uh is in having had Mac for 33 years. You know, that that is a blessing that we hold on to, you know, in this in this life. This we're human beings and we have a There's a There's a timeline to everybody, right? And uh we don't know when we'll be taken, when that's that's over. Some people live to be 100 and blah blah blah. And there are children that, you know, die in infancy and everybody in between. So, we we don't really know what that's going to do. I I have no I I am just thankful that I had this beautiful relationship with Mac and that he was in our lives for the amount of time that we had him. Um you know, I I I don't like, of course, that we lost him and that he went through the suffering that he went through. But I learned a lot from him and and what helped us through always, Kyle was and Mack was very good at this, too. Uh is keeping an eye on our many, many blessings that we have. You have to in a challenging situation like that. You have to keep your eye on the on the blessings. Uh and because they give you hope and they pull you up when you're falling down. And we had There were many, many blessings in our life that that we knew. In fact, there's there's one thing at the end of the book, um where I share something that Mack said to my wife. >> Yep. >> But when he's laying in his hospital bed, um and can I can I find it here? Um >> Yeah, my uh the one I read is over there. I've got the blank one here, but I know what you're talking about. Um here it is. I've got it. >> Moira spent many hours with Mack in his room talking to him, keeping him company. >> [snorts] >> She told me at one point that Mack had turned to her and said, "Mom, >> [snorts] >> there's a silver lining in all this. If I was not going through what I'm going through, I would be off doing my thing, traveling, who knows. But because of what has happened, I've been able to spend all this quality time with you, talking, watching Cubs games, big big Chicago Cubs fan, being with the family, and that's a blessing. He felt blessed even when we were not finding any medications that work, even when we were running out of options, even when he was paralyzed from the chest down and blind in one eye, even with massive tumors on his lungs, his nose, his eyebrows, throughout his body, even in all that difficulty, Mac knew he had many blessings to be thankful for. And he did. And that kept, you know, and we kept our eyes on on that always, and and it was and it's hard. You know, it's hard when when things get so tough. There were many many times where I I fell down on the stairs and uh my wife just had to hold me and I was just I was exhausted from trying to figure out what we were going to do to help him. And yet what happens, I mean, you don't you can't stay on the stairs in a in a ball. There are too many people dependent on you. You got to get up and go. And it's like I have many uh many friends who are Medal of Honor recipients. These are great American heroes who did extraordinary things to save others, you know, uh you know, by putting their own lives, you know, in jeopardy and harm's way. And many of them, you know, are trying to save buddies who are wounded, and they pick them up and they put them on their back, and they're getting shot at, and they're getting shot they're getting hit, and they're still carrying. They're still carrying their wounded buddy. And I felt like I was Max's battle buddy through this whole thing and I had to do everything I could to stay strong, stay on my feet, and to keep carrying him. That's what I tried to do. >> Well, and it was very clear that the bond that y'all created, you even talk about in the book, you talk about a road trip that y'all took. Uh cuz you kind of owed him one and he made you uh make good on your word and so y'all did a road trip and you just encouraged dad to do that. And I mean, yeah, I I'm another buddy of mine, I I have a really good friend from high school who lost his son in a car accident. I have a another friend of mine, Granger Smith, who um you know, found his son, his 3-year-old son, face down in the family swimming pool. Um and he was a big country singer and all that at the time and now he's like a local pastor, you know, that works with discipleship on people and he was asked at a Q&A by a woman, a well-meaning woman. She said, "If you could go back and save your son, like what would you do to get that opportunity?" He said, "I wouldn't go back and save him." And every you could just assume like the oxygen just got sucked out of the room, but it couldn't have been a more poignant biblically gospel-centered answer. He goes, "My son, it's impossible for him to be loved more by me than by his heavenly father. And that's exactly who he's with right now. Why would I selfishly go back and get my son and save him just just so that I could not miss him anymore? And just knowing the faith that Mac had, and it wasn't just faith in faith, it wasn't just faith in in the Pope or the faith in some book he read, it was faith in Christ. That he had he had bestowed, he had transferred his faith for his salvation away from his good deeds and good works and onto the finished work of Jesus at the cross. And he learned that from you and being in your house and and sharing a similar faith and so um well uh well well I think please. >> I Can I Please. Mac I I think what he learned from me was was about service. And how service can heal our hearts when they're broken. Service to others. Uh what he what he got from his mom uh in terms of the faith and and everything was profound. Um she spent so much time with Mac. Uh she has her You read the book. She has her own terrible challenges. And her faith her faith faith helped has helped carry her through still to to today. I mean, she's still very challenged uh with her health. Uh and Mac got a lot from that and it gave him an incentive to go deeper and to study even more. Uh he got a lot from uh Bishop Robert Barron. Um uh there's a wonderful quote uh from Augustine. Uh you have made us for yourself, oh Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you. Uh he loved Augustine and um Thomas Aquinas and he just started reading and he went uh I think once he got on fire, he was on fire. >> [laughter] >> Yep. >> And that helped him through the most difficult moments of his life, no question. >> Hey guys, real quick. So, we've all been there. We were invited over to someone's house for a cookout. We get there, the guy's making up maybe burgers or brisket or ribs or chicken or something like that. Your taste buds are getting ready. You're ready to have something delicious. And then the food's just super bland. And you realize, even if the meat was good quality, whatever they seasoned it with was junk. Guys, don't be that guy. Show them some flavor that they'll remember, and that's why I want you to remember about my friends at G's seasoning. So, G's seasoning is a small, family-owned and operated seasoning company from a small town in rural Texas. The recipe for their flagship all-purpose seasoning has been passed down in their family, and now they're passing it on to you. Guys, I have personally used G's all-purpose seasoning on beef, pork, tons of different wild game, chicken, fish, eggs, veggies, and you guys heard of me talk about this before, popcorn. I'm telling you it's a daddy hack. Also, they have a killer salt and pepper blend. So, it's a classic seasoning duo. Yeah, it's just salt and pepper, but G's has leveled it up. G's salt and pepper blend uses two different grains of top-shelf flake salt and two different grinds of hand-cracked black pepper to give you the bold flavor you're looking for. I've used it on brisket and burgers, and guys, it is just absolutely spectacular. And they've got deals and gift boxes rolling through the holiday season just for you guys. These seasonings are going to make great stocking stuffers and gifts for the cooks in your life. Guys, just get a case of them and hand them out to everybody. Support a small-town American family business by going to gseasonsing.com. That's g s like golf sierra, g s seasoning.com. Again, order today, gseasonsing.com. Well, I got to say, it was it was a tough read, but it was a very encouraging read for me because again, I feel like I've been put on this planet to equip men to push back darkness, and we can't do that if we refuse to look at it or refuse to acknowledge it. And sometimes the brokenness of sin leads to things like cancer, even rare cancers. And so, it's good for us to all reckon with that we're all living downstream of Genesis 3, and Christ is our only hope. And so, I think ultimately, this is a story about a graceful warrior, but it is a story of hope as well, and that hope can be found in Christ. Now, there's really no way to yank the wheel to the left on this interview, but I'm going to attempt my absolute very best to do so. So, I wanted to make sure we honored Mac first, but I think we would be derelict in our duties if we didn't focus in on your your acting career and some of the things that you've experienced there and then also to talk about your foundation. But, you know you got a weird job. Like it's a weird job. Like I have a weird job. You have a really weird job. You pretend to be other people on film for our enjoyment. Like it's a weird thing. But, I I'm just curious for you if there was a moment, Gary, where you're like, "Okay, it's not just that I want to do this cuz a lot of people want to be singers. They want to be, you know, basketball players. They want to be all these things. But, when did you realize, "Okay, I'm going to make a living as a professional actor?" >> [clears throat] [laughter] >> Well, I yeah, um I remember the days where I knew I wanted to make >> [laughter] >> a living as a professional actor. I couldn't say at the time that I I I I knew I was going to um cuz there were a lot of years that were pretty lean and pretty pretty tough. But, in the uh you know, I started in high school and then after high school I started uh theater company, Steppenwolf. And it was really out of just uh a desire to keep acting, but you know, how many options does does somebody have when they come out of school or whatever? You go to um uh an an an acting school, another acting school. You go to Hollywood. You go to New York. You try all these different things to um you know, to see if you're going to be successful or not. I didn't want to go to New York or Hollywood. Uh but, I wanted to keep acting. So I started a theater company with my pals when I was 18 years old and we started doing plays. And it uh that was in 1974 and now that theater company is 52 years old with a giant building uh on the north side of Chicago. Multi-million dollar endowment. Um it's it's a giant business and it was all started by kids. And the the fact that we had some success early on gave us all incentive to um to go to really go for it. And so some of us started to leave the fold, right? We had this little little family of actors that kind of huddled together, kind of helping each other through uh you know, while we while we did our acting. And then one would go off and and try to do a movie or something like that and you know, occasionally uh we would do that and I tried to do that at one point. I My parents had moved out to Los Angeles and I left the company and went to Los Angeles, tried to break into the movies. It didn't work at all for me. I went back to Chicago, took over as the artistic director of the theater company and within 2 years we were moving our first play to New York, which became a gigantic hit there. And it was me and John Malkovich. John's a member of the company. And we moved this play called True West. And we moved it off Broadway and it got tremendous review reviews. People were packing the theater to see it. John went off after the run we did 6 months in the show. He left after the run and went off and started doing movies and started his movie career. I went back to to run the theater company. Uh and and all of a sudden we're we're making a little bit of a living. And then eventually I went out to Hollywood and I got a few parts and uh that that you know, I got a few parts um small parts, but at the same time I was able to get the attention of MGM who um I want I I brought Of Mice and Men as a film project to them. I said I wanted to direct that movie with Malkovich and me in the movie. And they they said okay. They said okay. So, you know, within a year I was shooting Of Mice and Men and that led to Forrest Gump. They saw Of Mice and Men. They invited me to come audition for Forrest Gump. I did that. I got the part in Forrest Gump. And Forrest Gump was so successful uh that that led to a lot of other movie parts and you know, a pretty successful movie and television career after that. >> Well, I want to get to Forrest Gump here in a second, but uh the extent of my theater experience is my ninth grade play even though I did have a solo in the play in fifth grade. I was Napoleon Bonaparte and I had a solo that I sang. So, that's the thing that happened. >> you sang? You were Napoleon. You sang. >> Yeah. I sang. >> short guy. >> Uh well, you know, I maybe uh 5' 10". I don't know. I feel like I'm kind of normal size, but I will say with the red hair and the mustache, I just keep waiting for the phone call for that western set in Ireland. And so, if you got any contacts at MGM, if they're needing a Celtic bad guy, I guess I could play that role. But like for me when I watch, like I know hey, I like this movie. Maybe I don't exactly know why. I I like this actor. Maybe I don't know exactly know why. I feel like you're going to know how to answer this question. What is the difference between a good movie and a spectacular movie. What is the difference between a good actor and a spectacular actor? Because, you know, we'll watch films like I was having a talk with my buddy the other day. We're talking about Inglourious Basterds. We're talking about Quentin Tarantino. And we're like, how is he able to pack so much tension into the first scene with Hans Landa in that family's house at the beginning of Inglourious Basterds? Like, how? And we just we don't have the words because we don't have the experience of how someone can make something like that. So, what's the difference between good and spectacular and how does someone get there? >> Well, I think it's what what kind of buttons that it pushes in everybody. I mean, you have you know, you have really high-quality uh very um very very experienced, very skilled directors who can make you know, they can make a a big hit or they can make a flop, you know, too. I mean, it it doesn't matter. They they're not always going to hit it out of the park. It's uh I suppose it's how it how the material and the story and the the acting and the filmmaking and the music and the editing all have have to kind of coincide perfectly at at the same time to make, you know, one of those unique special experiences. Uh I was fortunate that I got to be in Gump, which is you know, became a classic. Um and that that is a case where all the elements came together at the same time. Right? The script was great. Tom was great, perfect part for him. Uh Bob Zemeckis one of the great directors, had a had a superb handle on what he wanted to do uniquely with that story. The editing was great. The score is tre- tremendous. It's a just all the elements came together at at the same time. And all those various people can go off and work with other people and do other movies and they might not hit hit the hit the bull's-eye every time, you know? It's just the magic of the cinema is when all those things kind of come together at the same time and then the audience recognizes it at the same time and it pushes some buttons. >> Well, I mean 1994 was a huge year for movies. Guys, just go look at the list of movies that came out in 1994 and Forrest Gump was one of them and yeah, it turned into a classic. I mean, you got this role, you know, you do this film, but at the end of the rainbow, it's like it was box office hit, six Oscars including best picture, best director, you were nominated for best supporting actor. It's number 12, so Internet Movie Database, which most people see as like the movie Bible, they have the top 250 movies of all time, it's number 12, right? And that's that's from people like ranking the film out of 10. And so you can give it a score between, I guess, zero and 10 and based on the scores, it's number 12 out of all the films that have ever filmed, right? Out of all the things, right? You know, the the Tom Hanks part, do you hear the the inside baseball story about him basically basing his accent off of the young actor? He just kind of followed around and tried to emulate this young kid. There's so many uh little little Easter eggs and little interesting things. But as y'all were filming it, was this like, "Oh my gosh, this is going to be the one of the biggest movies ever. This is going to be spectacular." So so what was the feeling on set? What was your feeling when you were actually making the film? >> No, we didn't know because look at the the nature of the story, right? Tom is at the center of it and he's working with all the different stories. Mhm. But he's the only one that's doing that. Right? There's the there's the Forrest and Bubba story, there's the Forrest and Mom Mama story, there's [clears throat] the Forrest and Jenny story, there's the Forrest and Lieutenant Dan story. And Tom is shooting all these individual stories, so none of us really knew what the other people were doing in the movie when we when we were making it. I only worked with Robin Wright and Sally Field uh when uh when Lieutenant Dan shows up at the wedding. And that's the only time I was in a scene with either I didn't I didn't have any lines with Sally. I didn't even talk to her. And there was one little moment with Robin Wright. Uh but that's it. I didn't know what they were doing in the rest of the movie. So, it was impossible [clears throat] to know how it was going to turn out. I knew what it felt like for me and for Tom, you know, working together. That was really fun. And I worked with Michael T. Williamson, of course, Bubba on, you know, a few little things. And we all were having a great time doing all the Vietnam stuff and and all that. But it was impossible to know how the thing was going to fit together. I think the studio had big questions about that >> [laughter] >> themselves. They were like, "What are we spending our money on?" you know. And that's why uh there's the legend the story that Bob and Tom they wanted to the studio wanted to yank some money out of the budget or something like that. And uh Bob and Tom, Bob the director Zemeckis, they said to the studio, "Hey, they were going to give up some of their their salary um so that they could shoot these certain scenes in exchange for points in the movie. So, if the movie didn't if the movie didn't do well, they would they would make less money in salary. If the movie did you do well, they'd get rewarded. And that's exactly what >> [laughter] >> what happened to them. That was a great move uh for for both of them. They both could afford to do that. But [clears throat and cough] the studio was questioning like what's this going to turn into and how's this going to be? I think we all wondered that a little bit until we saw it for the first time. And that was a sensational moment. I remember everybody the lights came up in the little screening room and Robin was there with Sean Penn. She was with Sean Penn then and you know, uh we all they everybody stood up and looked at each other with these gigantic smiles on our faces because everybody knew it was great. It was a great movie. It was it was and it was a fun to watch for for all of us because so much of the story we didn't know what they were shooting. So it was like watching a movie and unless you know, it all of a sudden I'm in it for a second and then I'm out and it's on to something else. It was really really a good moment. >> Hey guys, real quick. So pretty much everywhere you look right now, all anyone in the fitness and wellness world wants to talk about is peptides. And in the last few years, the demand in the market for peptides has gone through the roof. And here's the thing, most people don't really know anything about peptides. They just know that a lot of people they know are on them and are having great results. And here are a few reality checks as it pertains to peptides. One, you need to know what they are and how they can help you. Two, not all peptides and peptide companies are reliable and safe. And third, you need a reputable company that will educate you and help you find the peptides that are right for you. And that's why I want to introduce you to a new partnership that we have with Victrix Wellness. So Victrix is not a telehealth clinic, it's not a prescription platform, it is a concierge wellness company built around one thing, peptide education. And through Victrix, you will get your own coach, someone who will walk you through the research, the product categories, how to evaluate the quality of the peptides you're getting, and how to find the peptides that are right for you and your situation. So, this is more of an individualized, focused, and direct approach to your overall wellness as compared to the typical clinical experience. Want to know how the Wolverine stack can help you recover from an injury? Victrix can help, and they're the ones that have been helping me ever since I ruptured my bicep, and it's just been fantastic. Also, want to know the benefits of the glow stack and what that can have on your physical appearance and recovery? Victrix can help with that. Want to see how certain peptides can help you with sleep, cognitive performance, immune support, sexual health, longevity, and other things? Victrix can help with that, too. And guys, right now, all Undaunted Lifers listening to this can go to www.victrixwellness.com/kyle to get a free consultation with one of Victrix's wellness coaches. That's v i c t r i x wellness.com/kyle. The link will be in the show notes. Guys, stop listening to random people on social media that don't know what they're talking about. Let my friends at Victrix wellness guide you. Again, go to victrixwellness.com/kyle. That's victrixwellness.com/kyle. Well, and again, it's just to be a part of that, and even I to have as big of a role as you did. But, before [clears throat] we move off of that, I got to throw this out there, and I was I was considering whether or not I was going to do it, but I'm going to go there because you brought up Jenny. Now, there's a there's a fan theory and all this going around the internet that Jenny's actually a villain. And then, when I go back and I watch the film, I got to tell you, I think Jenny might be worse than Thanos. Yep, she had a rough upbringing, her father was terrible, she was all these things, but dadgummit, she was terrible to Forrest, and she may gave him AIDS at the end of the movie. And so, like, I just I just got to say, I know that wasn't Robin's intention, she played her her part her part but have you heard those rumors about Jenny? And if you cuz you are the authority on this out of the two of us, right? In terms of whether or not she's the villain, but I kind of feel like she's the worst. So, talk me off the ledge or put me on there with her. Let me know. >> I never I never thought of Jenny as a villain, no. I just that that is a story that is so relatable to so many. You know, so many children go through difficult, you know, really tragic and terrible upbringings, you know? But Forrest saves a lot of folks and he saves Lieutenant Dan. You know, in some ways he saves Jenny. You know, that that I mean, he didn't you know, they never say what she dies of, right? But at the time and the you know, sure there was, you know, AIDS and she was promiscuous and all of that throughout her youth and everything, but that wasn't Forrest's fault, of course. She would she just went off into an understandable spiral, you know, spiraling down because of her upbringing and her youth. So, I I I always thought it was a heartbreaking story, but a beautiful story because they come together in the end in this beautiful way and he just wants to take care of her and she gave him she gave him a lot. He was she was always the person that he looked to as like when he says, "I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is." >> Mhm. >> And he did know what love is. So, I don't know. The internet will make up whatever they want. >> [laughter] >> Well, I'm going to go ahead and help them. Here's the headline. Gary Sinise thinks Jenny is a horrible villain. There you go. So, we just confirmed it >> [laughter] >> right here on the show. >> then I'll have to start a war with you online, I guess, and say I never said that. >> That's where all the real wars start is on the internet, so we can all we can all dispense with that a little bit. Before we move on to the foundation, I do want to ask you a couple of kind of lightning round acting questions. Is there a role that you really wanted or maybe even auditioned for that you didn't get that even to this day you're like, "Ugh, I really even if it wasn't a big film or a big role on television." Is there that one thing where you're like, "Gosh, I really wish I could have done that project." >> Um Nothing that Nothing that comes to mind. I I mean Um there are parts There was one I I wanted to At one point I wanted to play uh Jimmy Doolittle. Um Doolittle Raiders, Medal of Honor recipient, uh World War II. Uh and and at one time there were some scripts floating around. I would have you know, if something happened at that time, I would have liked to have done that. Uh but I can't think of anything that I passed on or um There may Yeah, there may be some things I didn't get, you know, here and there. But I'll tell you, you know, there were a couple of things that I didn't get that I'm glad I didn't get them in the in the long run because Forrest Gump came along. >> Mhm. >> I auditioned for Forrest Gump and then I didn't hear anything. I kept you know, as soon as you leave the audition, you call your agent and say, "Did you hear from him? What you know, what did they say? Did I do good good job?" Um and I was waiting to find out about Forrest Gump and they were auditioning all kinds of other people. So, in the meantime, I thought, "Well, I'm not going to get it. I'll go audition for these other things." And I auditioned for uh Wyatt Earp that um that Larry Kasdan directed with Kevin Costner and I auditioned for a movie called Little Buddha. And I was very close to getting parts in both those movies. But they didn't come my way. And if if I would have gotten the parts, I probably would have taken them because I didn't think Forrest Gump was going to happen. So luckily I didn't get those parts that I wanted and Forrest Gump came back to me and that that changed everything. >> Absolutely. Now, is there It's one thing to say, "Hey, who's your favorite actor?" But is there an actor that, you know, from any time, whether alive or dead, whether your paths would have crossed naturally or not, is there an actor that you have not worked with that you really really wish you could have worked with? >> Yeah, Jimmy Jimmy Stewart. >> Why Jimmy? >> I I think he's just he's he was just one of the greatest Americans, you know, you know. Just uh uh and It's a Wonderful Life is one of my favorite films. I mean, he he did a lot of great movies. But that's that's a movie like Forrest Gump where you could you can it comes on the television, you sit down and watch it. His performance is so good in that. Um and he just from, you know, and I saw that for the first time many many years ago and just thought he was one of the greats. Uh uh another another one that I did get to work with for briefly, for 2 days, who was really the sort of actor during the '70s that I was looking to, one of them anyway, when I was just starting to act in the '70s, and that was Gene Hackman. And I got I got to work with Gene Hackman for 2 days on a movie called The Quick and the Dead. And he was my one of my all-time favorite acting idols, you know. I just loved Gene Hackman. He was never bad. He He might have been in in movies that didn't do as well, but Gene Hackman was one of those guys you could just rely on. He was always going to Yeah, he was always going to be good. >> Now, so RIP Gene Hackman. I do I think I remember this would have been years ago. He was He would have been in his 70s probably, but I heard he got into like a street fight like on the highway. Like I I heard this rumor that like literally this guy in a road rage moment like got out and like challenged Gene Hackman to a fight and he basically said, "I'm your huckleberry." and gave this guy what for. I So, did you hear that rumor because like I don't want to spread any >> Now that you mention it, I think I do remember hearing about that. Well, Gene was a Marine, you know, he was in the Marine Corps. So, he [clears throat] was nobody to be messed with for for for sure. He He was He was Popeye Doyle. I mean, he was he was good. [clears throat] >> I just love the thought of this like 20-some year old dude with tattoos getting out of his car thinking, "All right, I'm going to give this old guy piece of my mind." and then him just getting stomped. And just that for that just like gives me so much pleasure to even think about. Now, before we turn over to the foundation, I always like putting people that do the stuff that you do in a little bit of an awkward position, but if there was a gigantic delete button that was going to delete everything that you've ever done on film, right? So, whether that's a movie, television show, anything. And only one work that you've done, one role, right? One work that you've done is going to stick stick around for humanity to judge you by in 500 years from now if the Lord continues to tarry that long, that's how they're going to know Gary Sinise is because of this one role, this one a piece of art. Everything else is gone. What's What's going to be left for us? >> Only one? >> Only one? >> It's hard to select only one, but I think >> [clears throat] >> I think it would have to be Forrest Gump because uh because of what happened after Forrest Gump, too. Not I mean it changed my career profoundly. It had the greatest effect on my movie career. But it also it was my introduction to working with our wounded service members. And about about 6 weeks after the movie came out and it was a gigantic hit that summer of '94. I got a call from the Disabled American Veterans organization. They represented 1.5 million wounded veterans at the time. And they invited me to come to their national convention. I write about this in in my first book called Grateful American. The very first page is all about walking out on the stage, being introduced at the Disabled American Veteran convention, walking out on the stage and looking out and seeing 2,000 wounded veterans out in the ballroom applauding me for playing for playing them. >> Yeah. >> And it had a profound impact on me. And from that point I just, you know, wherever I was going, you know, I was Lieutenant Dan and then when I started visiting our wounded in the hospitals, I'd walk in and they wouldn't even know what my name was, but they knew I was Lieutenant Dan and they wanted to talk to about [clears throat] the story of Lieutenant Dan and the positive part of the story where Lieutenant Dan is standing up again and he's walking and he's moving on and he's he's okay. And of course that's the story that we want for everybody who's wounded in battle. So, you know, I would have to say that that movie is that movie affected so many different things even though it's hard to pick one specific part because there's a bunch of them I like. If I had to pick one, I'd have to pick that because because of the the life change in so many ways. >> Yeah, I think I would have to pick that as well. I mean, I really liked oh, you know, another work that you did with Tom Hanks, The Green Mile. You have such a a small part there, but I feel like it really kind of became the glue for John Coffey as a character in a way, but we don't need to like peel back the layers of The Green Mile or Stephen King or anything like that right now. But I do just got to tell you, I mean, you and I are just old buddies now, but if I had ever seen you in public before this moment, I probably would not have been able to stop myself from running to the nearest ice cream shop just so I could walk up to you and be like, "Lieutenant Dan, ice cream." I mean, how many times has that happened to you? How many times are you just standing there and someone's like, "Lieutenant Dan, you got new legs." Like, how many times? >> That That happened. I was sitting in a restaurant once and all of a sudden the waitress comes over and she's standing there with an ice cream cone. >> Perfect. >> look over and then the table over here is laughing and smiling. >> [laughter] >> I mean, at that point you just got to be a good sport and eat the ice cream, don't you? Unless it's mint chocolate chip. I'm I'm on the record, those people should go to prison. No one should eat that. But like at the end Well, I guess I need to ask you, Lieutenant Dan, what is your favorite flavor of ice cream? >> Oh gosh, favorite flavor? Butter pecan, maybe. >> Oh, let's go. All right. All right, very good. Well, hey, before we get you out of here, let's put a finer point on the work you're doing with the Gary Sinise Foundation. So, obviously, the work that you did on Forrest Gump as Lieutenant Dan kind of led you into that world, but for all intents and purposes, like, you know, history will remember you as an actor, but that's probably not going to be the first thing they remember you as because of what you've done for the veteran community. And you know, anytime I've heard you talk recently, no matter what whose show you're on or what what you're pushing, it always kind of comes down to the service that you're doing for our veterans that raised their hand and said, I'm going to defend this country from enemies foreign and domestic, and they paid a price for that, right? And so let's just talk about, you know, the launch of the the Gary Sinise Foundation and the specific work that you guys do. >> You know, I have a lot of veterans in my family, so a lot of that starts there. And on my wife's side of the family are Vietnam veterans, and I learned a lot from them back in the day, back in the '70s and '80s. You know, they told me a lot about what it was like to go serve in Vietnam and come home and have the nation not care about them. That's that was bad. When we started deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan, I just I didn't want that to happen to those people. They were responding to the horrible attack of September 11th 25 years ago, and I just wanted to help them through that experience. So I started raising my hand and going out for the USO and traveling to the war zone and going into the hospital and um you know, supporting lots of nonprofits that were in the military support space. And after 10, 12 years of doing that, I realized you know, this is a big deal. I'm I'm in this for good. This is this is what I'm doing. So what's the next step? And the next step was to start my own foundation and raise additional money so that I could employ people to help me do a lot more of what I was doing on my own as a volunteer. I just wanted to expand the mission and be able to cover a lot more ground and help a lot more people. And now we have over 100 employees at the Gary Sinise Foundation. We're in our 16th year. We build specially adapted smart technology mortgage-free housing for very, very badly wounded service members who need, you know, have special needs in in their home. You know, they maybe they can't get up the stairs, we'll put an elevator in there or chair lift or they can't get out of bed, we put cranes in there to help them lift them out of bed. We make the hallways wider, we make the countertops if you're in a wheelchair, we make them specific there, we put smart technology in there, all kinds of stuff to help restore the independence of the person that has been injured in battle. Uh our program is called R.I.S.E. Restoring Independence, Supporting Empowerment. That's just one program at the Gary Sinise Foundation, multiple programs where we're supporting thousands of children who have lost a mom or dad in military service or as a first responder. And we take care of these families as best we can. The American people help me do that, they donate to the Gary Sinise Foundation. My son Mac worked for the Gary Sinise Foundation until things became too difficult for him. In fact, this record here, this is part two of the Resurrection and Revival series of Mac's music. And there are three albums of this music. He he made the first album Resurrection and Revival and then after he died, I found all this additional music and I made two more records of his music. And with the first record, he said, "Dad, let's make some vinyls and if we sell any, um they can go to the Gary Sinise Foundation to help the mission." Well, now between all three records, we've sold over 10,000 vinyl records with all the proceeds going to the foundation to help the mission. So, Mac continues to help us in in in the mission of the foundation. Uh it's a great it's a great mission. We have multiple programs and I encourage people to go check out the music at Gary Sinise Foundation.org. Check out the programs. You can see on multiple fronts what we're doing all over the country. I just got back from three concerts on military bases and I'll be going out again pretty soon to play more concerts. I've played over I play I think it's about 630 some concerts for the military. All free of charge for the military to go to these concerts and it's supported by the people who donate to the Gary Sinise Foundation. They help me do that. So, we're you know, I'm busy right now you know, always championing the good work that we're doing at the Gary Sinise Foundation. The albums that were you know, music created by my son and Graceful Warrior which is coming out right now and it's in pre-order. You can pre-order it or order it, you know, online. You can get it in bookstores, all that kind of thing. Um you know, all the all the all the all the good work. You can get it at the Gary Sinise Foundation website too. Um which with all the proceeds going to the Gary Sinise Foundation for for for what you buy on the website. >> Well, guys, there are links in the show notes to all that. So, if you want to get the book, if you want to get the records, if you just want to support what the Gary Gary Sinise Foundation is doing, all that is in the show notes. But, Gary, we went everywhere in this conversation. We made it through that that first part and then got on to all the fun stuff a little bit later. But, that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> Kyle, it's been a a real pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me talk about my son Mac and and Graceful Warrior and God bless you, bud. >> Thanks again, you too, Gary. There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Gary Sinise. But, before I let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At Unadulted Life, our mission is equipping men and push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. So, I've got links to where you can buy your copy of his first best-seller, Grateful American, and also his newest book right here, Graceful Warrior, and also a link to where you can go and check out what's going on at the Garrison Heitz Foundation, and also where you can pick up Max's music. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook, and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awakened. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. >> Void Awakened. >> [music]