GARY THOMAS | Making Your Marriage a Fortress (Ep. 367)

0:00 (upbeat music)

0:02 - This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.

0:21 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.

0:22 Let's get into it.

0:23 Hi guys, Steve.

0:24 We've got a special guest on the podcast.

0:25 His name is Gary Thomas.

0:26 So Gary is a best-selling author

0:28 and an international speaker, and his books

0:30 have literally sold over two million copies worldwide.

0:33 So he's probably most known for his marriage

0:35 and relationship books, including Sacred Marriage,

0:37 which by itself has sold over a million copies and Cherish,

0:40 which is on the 100 books Every Modern Christian Man

0:42 should read lists, that's on our website.

0:44 Also, he has a new book out

0:45 that we spend a lot of our time talking about today

0:46 called Making Your Marriage of Fortress.

0:48 So this guy's life statement, if you will,

0:51 I guess you could call it that,

0:52 is bringing people closer to Christ and closer to others.

0:55 And so he spends a lot of time talking about relationships.

0:57 So we get into his book, Sacred Marriage and Cherish,

1:00 and why those things are so important.

1:01 But again, we spend most of our time

1:02 talking about making Your Marriage of Fortress.

1:04 And also, there was a great quote from there

1:07 that I got his feedback on, and I loved it.

1:08 It was, "Make the situation you're into me

1:10 "instead of your spouse."

1:12 We talked about the work of Dr. John Gottman.

1:14 We spent quite a bit of time talking about sex

1:16 and sensuality and trust and all the things inherent in that.

1:20 And I asked him a few questions that he doesn't ever get asked.

1:22 And so he was very happy about that,

1:24 especially afterwards when the interview was done.

1:26 You know, he was very complimentary of the fact

1:28 that we got into some areas that are very, very important

1:30 from him that aren't really gotten into very much

1:32 at the end, we talk about manhood inside the church.

1:34 And to be honest, I think this is the first interview

1:36 I've done that is just about marriage.

1:38 So guys, if you're not married, this still applies to you.

1:41 Because obviously the model that we get

1:44 to understand God's love for us, or Jesus' love,

1:47 is how Jesus loved the church,

1:49 is how we're supposed to love our spouse.

1:50 And Jesus gave up his life for the church,

1:53 for the people of God.

1:53 And so I think that it's a very, very important subject matter.

1:56 I certainly don't have enough people on this podcast

1:58 to talk about it, but Gary Thomas is one of those people

2:01 that is very well versed in this particular area.

2:03 He's written a lot about it.

2:04 He's thought a lot about it.

2:05 So I was so glad that we were able to get him on.

2:06 But before we get there, I want to remind you

2:08 about the upper room and the King's Council.

2:10 So this is big time attention to business owners,

2:12 entrepreneurs, and the soon to be entrepreneurs

2:14 that are listening to this podcast right now.

2:15 The upper room and the King's Council.

2:17 So the mission of these two organizations

2:20 is to create wealth and provision for the purpose

2:22 of establishing God's covenant on earth.

2:24 So what these organizations do, what these two groups do,

2:27 is they equip entrepreneurs with tools, systems,

2:29 and frameworks necessary to discover, develop,

2:32 and deploy their God-given vision into the marketplace.

2:35 So specifically, I want to talk about the upper room mastermind.

2:37 So if you're an existing entrepreneur or a business owner,

2:40 or you're about to launch in, or you're trying to ramp up,

2:42 and you're looking for a tribe of like-minded,

2:45 bold kingdom leaders eager to engage in the battle of business,

2:48 then the upper room is 100% for you guys,

2:50 so I don't want you to miss out on this.

2:52 So what they do is they host virtual and in-person events

2:54 every month, and they focus on business strategies

2:57 to increase sustainable revenue for your business

3:00 while providing ongoing accountability.

3:02 So this is a very customizable thing to your business,

3:05 'cause obviously if you're running a flower shop

3:08 versus running an insurance business,

3:10 it's gonna be a little bit different what your needs are.

3:12 So I've actually spoken to their group before,

3:13 so I have some behind the scenes looks

3:15 as kind of the some of the things that they're doing.

3:16 And if you want more information on this,

3:18 go to episode 355 of this podcast.

3:19 That was my interview with Riley Meek.

3:21 He is the founder of the Kings Council in the upper room.

3:23 So it's 355 Riley Meek at the King Entrepreneurship and Money,

3:27 and he made an offer on that episode

3:29 that I thought was awesome.

3:30 So if you guys will text upper room to 727-472-3860,

3:35 you will get an application to schedule a one-on-one

3:39 with Riley Meek who is the founder of the upper room

3:42 and the Kings Council.

3:43 So again, that's upper room.

3:44 So that's U-P-P-E-R-R-O-O-M to 727-472-3860.

3:51 To schedule your one-on-one

3:53 with the founder of the upper room

3:55 and the Kings Council Riley Meek, guys,

3:56 you will not want to miss this.

3:57 It's going to be a great value to you.

3:59 But guys, without further ado, let's get into it.

4:02 Gary Thomas, welcome to an Daunted Life of Man's podcast.

4:05 - Thanks for having me here, Kyle.

4:07 - Okay, so we've got a little over an hour

4:09 with each other today.

4:10 That should be enough time for us

4:12 to fix everybody's marriage listening to this, right?

4:14 Like we should be able to make that happen.

4:16 - Piece of cake, piece of cake.

4:17 - That's what I heard.

4:18 I heard every podcast you've been on,

4:20 there's just like a ripple effect

4:22 of all these broken people that have been fixed.

4:24 So we've got to keep that going

4:25 with this particular podcast.

4:27 But as weird as it is to start out at 30,000 feet

4:31 and to keep it really, really basic,

4:33 what led you specifically to become an author,

4:36 but not just an author,

4:37 'cause there's a lot of those,

4:37 but specifically a Christian non-fiction author.

4:41 - Well, I'll be honest, Kyle,

4:43 although it may make me lose credibility

4:45 with your listeners.

4:46 I became an author 'cause there's nothing else

4:48 you would pay me for.

4:49 I'm a man of extremely limited gifts.

4:53 I'm not mechanical.

4:55 I don't like numbers.

4:56 I don't like to be in charge of people.

4:58 I always wanted to be a writer and God blessed it.

5:01 And I'm so grateful that I've been able

5:02 to feed my family through it.

5:05 But the thing that led to marriage

5:07 was I had written a number of books

5:08 on how we get closer to God.

5:11 And yet the one thing that I'd never seen a book on

5:14 was how marriage and parenting

5:16 were challenging me spiritually as a man, as a person,

5:21 like nothing else ever had.

5:23 I'm not putting down fasting or meditation or spirits.

5:27 Those have their place.

5:28 I don't have to get negative about them at all.

5:31 But when it comes to facing my insecurities,

5:35 having to swallow my pride,

5:38 learning to ask for forgiveness or offer forgiveness,

5:40 learning to be patient,

5:42 learning to be gentle with a wife or daughter

5:45 that seems very sad.

5:46 I mean, all of those things,

5:48 marriage and family life,

5:50 it was like a school of spiritual formation.

5:53 I call it the spiritual gymnasium.

5:56 It's where I would get my spiritual workout.

5:58 And I'd never seen somebody address marriage

6:00 from that perspective.

6:01 It was always, you know, the five principles of Jesus

6:03 that'll make your marriage easy.

6:04 I thought, you know,

6:05 I don't think any marriage is easy all the time.

6:09 But if we understand the purpose behind the difficulty,

6:12 instead of running from our marriage,

6:14 we can embrace it just like we go to the gym knowing

6:17 it's going to make us soar.

6:18 It's going to make us sweat.

6:19 It's going to make us smelly.

6:21 It's going to make us tired.

6:22 But we're thinking,

6:23 but you know what, if I spend an hour in there,

6:25 I can come out stronger, faster, healthier.

6:28 Same thing with marriage.

6:29 If I can come out more like Christ,

6:30 if I can be more humble,

6:31 if I can be more serving, more sacrificial,

6:34 then at least I see the purpose behind the difficulty.

6:37 - So let's talk about that difficulty a little bit.

6:39 And don't worry, we'll get to all the books, guys.

6:41 Chill out, chill your beans.

6:42 But part of the difficulty, I think,

6:44 is because I know that if I'm training myself

6:46 or training someone else,

6:47 and they want to get stronger legs by chance.

6:49 Well, in order to do that,

6:50 they need to put a barbell across your shoulders,

6:52 squat down a bunch of times,

6:53 and then come back up, right?

6:55 That's what they need to do.

6:56 There is a 0% chance if they do that consistently,

6:58 that their legs will not get stronger, right?

7:01 But with marriage, it's not like that at all,

7:03 because there technically is no formula.

7:04 And I'm going to force you to give me some answers

7:06 that are very formulaic at some point in this podcast.

7:08 But that's the thing that I think most guys are scared of,

7:10 is they're like,

7:11 well, I can do all the stuff you're supposed to do.

7:13 I can check every single one of the boxes.

7:15 My wife could still hate me.

7:16 Like, I could still be a terrible person.

7:18 I can still mess up.

7:19 We could still have a terrible marriage.

7:21 And I guess that's kind of the struggle for,

7:23 especially the guys that listened to this show.

7:25 - Well, there's a fascinating verse in the book of James.

7:31 James 3-2 says, "We all stumble in many ways."

7:36 Now, some of your listeners may not know,

7:39 James grew up with Jesus.

7:40 Protestants believe he was his brother.

7:42 Of course, didn't have the same father.

7:44 Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

7:45 Roman Catholics would say he was a cousin.

7:47 The key thing is that they grew up together in childhood.

7:51 James knew what moral perfection was,

7:55 'cause he grew up with it.

7:56 Now, imagine sibling rivalry

7:59 when you have a brother that's literally perfect.

8:01 I mean, how frustrating that is.

8:04 And so it's significant.

8:05 The early church knew that he didn't have to remind

8:07 the people reading his letters who he was.

8:09 They all knew it.

8:10 They were in awe. Here's a man who grew up with Jesus.

8:14 And yet he says, "We all stumble in many ways."

8:17 And it's sort of like a weekend hacker

8:20 that thinks, "You know, I've got golf down pat."

8:24 And then he does it around with Tiger Woods and says,

8:26 "Oh, okay."

8:28 They're playing a different game than I am.

8:30 Or some guy that works out a little bit

8:32 and he's with a professional MMA guy and goes,

8:33 "Okay, well, I wouldn't last 30 seconds in there."

8:37 And James had that spiritually where he had been

8:41 with the very best.

8:44 And so can we just be honest,

8:45 if we're not comparing ourselves left or right,

8:47 I'm not looking for the worst husband in the church.

8:49 I'm not even looking at the best husband in the church.

8:52 I'm comparing myself to Jesus.

8:57 Because if you compare yourself to Jesus as I did,

9:00 the best of us on our best day, we stumble.

9:07 In many ways.

9:09 And I think if we men would just start with that Kyle,

9:12 I'm not there yet.

9:14 There's more I can do.

9:16 I've got a couple of friends that are PGA Tour golfers.

9:21 They have more coaches than anybody I've ever met,

9:23 not 'cause they're bad golfers,

9:25 but because they have to be among the very best

9:28 to keep earning money.

9:29 So they have the food coach,

9:31 they have the strength and conditioning coach,

9:32 they have the swing coach, they have the putting.

9:34 I mean, it's amazing how many people they hire.

9:38 And so if we would just have this attitude that,

9:40 you know what, I'm not gonna compare myself

9:41 to this husband or that husband.

9:43 Compared to Jesus, I've got a lot of room to grow.

9:47 And so then when we see these issues in our marriage,

9:50 it's not about does it work to change?

9:53 It's I'm doing it because God wants me

9:55 to be the person I can be.

9:56 Just like when you're training a guy,

9:58 you just want him to be what he can be.

10:00 We all have certain limits, how strong you can be,

10:03 how fast you can be, how quick you can be.

10:06 But you wanna be operating at your very best level.

10:10 And so it's learning to say, okay,

10:11 how can I use marriage to reach that level?

10:15 Even though it will feel like a spiritual workout,

10:18 how can I figure out what it means to love this woman?

10:21 Maybe she's fearful, maybe she's overbearing,

10:24 maybe she's insecure, maybe she's sensitive,

10:26 maybe she's too sarcastic and are, whatever it is,

10:30 how do I learn to grow and love

10:31 by learning to love this particular woman that I'm married to?

10:35 - Well, it's kind of like becoming an expert,

10:36 some people would say becoming an expert in your spouse.

10:38 I say becoming a black belt in your spouse

10:40 'cause I've been training Jiu Jitsu for a while.

10:41 And people that trained Jiu Jitsu

10:43 know how unbelievably hard it is.

10:44 And I know black belts that are fine

10:47 with doing the stuff that they did on the first week or two

10:50 that they were a white belt

10:50 because they know you have to continually sharpen the sword.

10:53 And I know plenty of people that are brown belts

10:55 or black belts in Jiu Jitsu,

10:56 that are white belts or blue belts in life.

10:58 And that's not really a position that you wanna be in.

11:00 Now, probably the most notable book

11:03 that you've written on the subject of marriage

11:05 is a book called Sacred Marriage.

11:06 I think you've sold a few copies of that to date.

11:09 How many copies have you sold?

11:10 I'm gonna make you bragging yourself, say it, say it.

11:12 - I think we're about 1.2 million.

11:14 - Don't pretend like you did know the exact answer.

11:16 You knew the exact answer.

11:17 Oh, I think it's aw, shucks 1.2 million.

11:20 So I guess people really engage with that content

11:23 and you don't get to 1.2 million in the modern day

11:25 of publishing without people sharing it around,

11:28 buying a case of it and giving it out

11:29 to people at their church or at their office

11:31 or something like that.

11:32 So what, I guess you could tell us, you know,

11:35 what the hell the books are actually about,

11:36 but then beyond that, why?

11:38 Why is that the book?

11:39 'Cause it's not the only marriage book you've gotten,

11:41 you know, below your belt.

11:42 Now, we'll kind of get into those,

11:43 some other ones here in a second.

11:45 Why was that the one that took off to the moon?

11:47 - Well, first, it's had time.

11:48 It was first published in the year 2000, but you're right.

11:51 95% of books sell 5,000 copies or less.

11:54 So, but I think here's what was happening, Kyle.

11:58 I was writing in the Christian market

12:00 where I felt like books weren't being honest about marriage.

12:03 To sell books, they were saying,

12:05 here are the five principles of Jesus and your marriage is easy.

12:07 These are the six biblical principles.

12:09 You follow these CC through it.

12:11 - You know, I was, John Maxwell ruined everything.

12:13 John Maxwell ruined everything.

12:15 He wrote 74 books with numbers in front of it.

12:17 And now everyone was just like rinsing and repeating.

12:19 Sorry, I just got to get mad at John.

12:21 John, I literally just forgot his name

12:23 'cause I got so mad at him again.

12:24 But go ahead, sorry to interrupt him.

12:26 - And so then I came through and I said,

12:27 look, I think even the best of marriages

12:30 will have difficult times.

12:32 And people were kind of surprised

12:33 like we're meeting the difficulty.

12:35 And I said, here's why I'm not afraid

12:38 of mentioning the difficult.

12:39 The best things in life are difficult.

12:41 Becoming a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu is extremely difficult.

12:46 Otherwise there would be no satisfaction in getting there.

12:49 Starting a business these days,

12:51 when you got governmental regulation,

12:52 when you have competitors,

12:53 when you have people trying to steal your customers,

12:56 assault your revenue, that's not easy to do.

12:59 Learning to master an instrument.

13:00 All of these things, you know, the best athletes,

13:03 I just talked about the PGA tour golfers

13:05 where they just, they have to address everything these days.

13:09 Why do we think marriage should be easy?

13:12 Isn't a lot of the glory of it that, okay, it's difficult,

13:15 but that makes me want to step up.

13:17 Is it to say, well, if it's difficult,

13:18 I won't have anything to do with it.

13:19 Well, then you're just a different kind of guy for me.

13:23 I mean, if you're always taking the easy way out,

13:26 then I don't think you like my books

13:28 and I don't think we have a lot in common.

13:31 And so I was willing to say, I think they're difficult.

13:34 And what is that difficulty?

13:35 That through our marriage, we can become more like Christ.

13:38 And I follow Jesus who said, seek first the kingdom of God

13:42 and his righteousness.

13:44 And he says, first, in the Greek that's present tense,

13:47 that means continually keep on seeking

13:49 for above everything else, his righteousness.

13:54 And so it's, I'm a big fan of the Tour de France.

13:57 I don't know a lot of people listening like that,

14:00 but I've read a lot of biographies of the winning bikers.

14:04 And I think of Geront Thomas who won one year.

14:07 And he talked about how to be a top biker

14:11 where you're going over out to us.

14:13 These are freaks of nature

14:14 because they have to have quadriceps

14:17 like an NFL lineman and arms like a chess player.

14:22 They don't want any extra weight.

14:25 And so they really have to keep their weight down.

14:28 If you're pedaling over Alpe dues,

14:30 you don't want any extra weight at all.

14:33 And he talked about, obviously you go,

14:36 yeah, bikers can't have ice creams.

14:37 He goes, it's just, it's not.

14:39 And you think he's given up a lot.

14:41 But if you could have seen his face

14:42 when he was in the yellow jersey

14:43 and he knew he had won the Tour de France a couple of years ago,

14:47 the biggest race in the world for bikers,

14:49 he wasn't thinking about the ice creams he gave up.

14:51 He wasn't thinking about the times and the rain

14:54 that he was going up the mountain.

14:55 He was just thinking, okay,

14:57 you could see it on his face.

15:00 And I think the same thing,

15:01 if we want to seek first his righteousness,

15:04 we recognize, yeah, there are things I'm giving up,

15:07 but this is better.

15:08 And it's just, let me even make this practical.

15:11 I know a guy in working on this book,

15:14 interviewed a lot of guys, one guy had a sexual addiction.

15:16 He had been a player and not just in real life, but online,

15:21 really got messed up with porn and he was in prison.

15:24 And he went into recovery and he had to work it hard.

15:26 He was going to 12 step groups.

15:28 He was, you know, making phone calls.

15:31 He was going to counseling.

15:32 He got it done like five years into recovery.

15:36 He was driving with his kids.

15:38 One of his kids said, hey, daddy, can I,

15:40 can I see your iPad?

15:41 I need to look something up.

15:42 And he said, sure.

15:43 And he handed it over.

15:44 And he realized five years before he would have been terrified.

15:48 He would have never let his wife or kids see his iPad.

15:51 Something might come up.

15:52 Maybe he forgot to erase something.

15:54 Maybe they'll see a history of something.

15:56 And the joy he felt, I don't have to have secrets

15:59 with my kids.

16:00 I'm not ashamed of what my kids,

16:03 I'm not afraid of my wife knowing my password.

16:05 She can see everything I have.

16:07 There was a new piece.

16:09 There was a joy.

16:10 There was a contempt.

16:11 He had to work really hard to get free.

16:14 But now that he was, he had a new relationship with his wife.

16:17 He had new freedom with his kids.

16:19 And he would say it was worth it.

16:21 So was getting sober difficult?

16:24 Yeah.

16:25 Was it worth it when you reached the mountain top

16:27 without question?

16:28 And I just think the same thing is true of marriage

16:31 in so many areas.

16:32 I was such a selfish person when I got married.

16:36 And now I think one of my greatest joys

16:38 is being able to do practical things for my wife.

16:42 I enjoy it.

16:43 I like being that person more than fuming over the fact

16:46 that she didn't do this and I wanted her to do that.

16:49 I think the other thing about it as well is most people,

16:51 in general, whether they're authors or managers or whatever,

16:54 they're afraid of pushing people.

16:56 Like they really are afraid of pushing people

16:58 because they're like, especially kind of like this mega

17:00 church thing, which I won't make any comments about that

17:02 because I'm sure they pay you good money to come and speak

17:04 to their flocks.

17:04 But whenever you don't push people

17:06 on culturally important issues, we don't push people's

17:09 on what's exactly being said in scripture

17:11 and in what context and how that applies to them

17:13 in their life, what you're going to get

17:15 is a bunch of people that are confused.

17:16 And then you might even get people

17:18 that think they're saved that aren't

17:19 because you're like, oh yeah, just kind of be a good person.

17:22 And believe that Jesus was a really nice guy

17:24 and never got angry and always kissed people

17:26 on the tips of their noses.

17:27 And you'll be fine, like, and that's just kind of the deal.

17:29 So I think that's part of the reason why Sacred Marriage

17:31 was so successful is 'cause it was pushing people

17:33 and people liked to be challenged as you talked about.

17:35 But you have another book, you have several,

17:37 but the other one I did wanna make note of

17:39 is a book called Cherish.

17:40 So we have a book list on our website

17:42 called The 100 Books Every Modern Christian Man Should Read.

17:45 There's a bunch of different categories.

17:46 There's leadership, there's business, philosophy,

17:48 theology, whatever, but we do have a marriage category

17:50 and Cherish is on there 'cause I think it's better

17:52 than the other ones.

17:53 But you know, you may differ, you might have a favorite

17:55 of your own if you had to pick a favorite kid.

17:57 But I guess the nexus of that book,

17:59 which is very digestible and very easy to relate to

18:02 is how that one word, Cherish,

18:04 can change how someone operates in a marriage.

18:07 Now, typically I'm not big on the whole self-helpy,

18:10 like this is your word and we're gonna focus on this word

18:13 and everything's gonna be magical and it's gonna be great,

18:15 but this is my one exception,

18:17 that if you focus on that one word, not love

18:19 'cause love's kinda squishy

18:20 and people don't really know what it means.

18:21 Cherish, we know what that means.

18:23 When you're cherishing a duckling

18:25 or you're cherishing, you know, some project

18:27 that you get to work on, when you're cherishing a person,

18:31 it makes a big difference.

18:32 So I don't even have a question for you

18:33 'cause I didn't wanna sell you short

18:35 on my favorite book of yours.

18:36 But tell me about Cherish.

18:38 Where did that come from?

18:38 Why is Cherish the word and the action so important?

18:41 - Well, the word was hiding in plain sight.

18:45 I mean, it's in most modern vowels.

18:46 I promise to love and to Cherish until death was part.

18:50 After I said that, I forgot about the words for 25 years.

18:54 I mean, I focused on love.

18:55 You think of marriage, you think of love

18:56 and I think love is important.

18:58 Sacrifice, service, commitment, loyalty, hanging in that,

19:01 that's good, but I just felt challenged one time

19:04 that God was saying, you promised to Cherish your wife,

19:07 my daughter, God's being there.

19:09 I want you to figure out what that means.

19:11 I want you to put it into practice.

19:12 And God always thought I had a decent marriage,

19:14 but here's what it did for me.

19:15 I remember I've been a distance runner

19:18 and I remember when I was, no, I don't remember,

19:20 but I've read about it when Roger Bannister

19:22 broke the four minute barrier in the mile.

19:25 And what a lot of people don't realize

19:26 was then months to other people had.

19:28 Before that, people thought it wasn't possible

19:31 that physiologically, a human being couldn't go that fast.

19:34 Once he said, this is the new bar,

19:37 all of a sudden everybody's going under it,

19:39 happens with world records all the time.

19:41 And for me, it was sending a new bar in my marriage.

19:44 I'm gonna be faithful to my, I'm not gonna cheat on my wife,

19:47 I'm gonna be loyal, I'm gonna hang in there.

19:49 Cherishing was a whole new bar.

19:51 Cherishing isn't about my obligations,

19:54 it's focusing on the excellence

19:55 and the beauty of my spouse,

19:56 so that my wife feels cherished.

20:00 For instance, when I'm listening to her,

20:02 it's not just listening to her to be polite,

20:05 it's listening to her with my eyes as well as my ears

20:08 so that she knows I'm listening.

20:10 So she feels like what she's saying is important.

20:14 And here's the thing, after the book came out,

20:17 I was speaking at it, sorry, Kyle,

20:19 but I'm making a church, I had a lot of people there.

20:22 - I knew it, I knew it, that's fine.

20:23 - And they had planned it for a long time

20:25 and I was really sick and I don't get sick very often.

20:28 I mean, I can go years without having a real serious sickness,

20:31 but this was one night where I had the flu.

20:33 I was just getting through the thing and it was terrible,

20:36 but I had a fever from the flu

20:39 and then it broke that night,

20:40 I'm in the hotel room with my wife.

20:42 And you know how when the fever breaks

20:44 and you start to get cold

20:45 and I'm kind of shivering a little bit.

20:46 - Mm-hmm.

20:48 - And my wife starts to put her arms around me,

20:51 I'm like, honey, watch out, go, this is awful.

20:54 You really don't want to catch this.

20:57 And she said, "Why aren't you cold?"

20:59 I said, "Yes."

20:59 And she pulls me closer and says,

21:01 "I gotta get you warm."

21:03 Now guys, I just want to ask you,

21:07 being cherished is so unusual in this world.

21:10 When wives are often taken for granted by their kids

21:12 or resented by their kids,

21:14 do they become invisible to others as they get older?

21:17 All of these things that really can hurt,

21:20 but if they have a guy who cherishes them,

21:23 what do you think a wife will do for a guy that cherishes her?

21:27 In my experience, whatever she has to do

21:29 for his welfare.

21:32 She doesn't want to lose that.

21:33 I think it's just a different dynamic in marriage.

21:36 I love you, I don't put love and cherish

21:40 as any of their compliments.

21:43 Cherish without love won't have the substance to last.

21:47 But love without cherish can start to feel like a duty

21:49 and a discipline while you're there

21:51 because you promise to and you can't go.

21:53 And that's not satisfying either.

21:55 I think the ultimate marriage is when you love and cherish

21:58 as we promise to do, or at least most of us did,

22:02 on the day we got married.

22:03 - When I think most of us think about the paradigm,

22:05 if we think about our relationship

22:07 outside of just a single word being love,

22:09 we think of the other word being like.

22:11 I mean, I think there's even a movie out there.

22:13 It's like, I don't just love you, I like you.

22:15 And like, that's supposed to be like this big, deep thing.

22:16 I remember first, I'm hurt.

22:17 It's like, that's pretty good.

22:18 Second time I heard it, I'm like, mmm, probably not.

22:20 But if it was love and cherish,

22:22 that makes a much bigger difference.

22:24 And again, to anyone that was offended

22:25 by my mega church, comment.

22:27 I think it's funny, it's not always funny to you,

22:29 but not every mega church is bad.

22:31 Still book Gary to come and speak to your people.

22:33 He didn't say it, I did.

22:35 But let's talk a little bit about the new book.

22:36 So you did write a new book and I'm so thankful

22:39 that you sent it to me a little early

22:40 so I could check it out.

22:41 It's called Making Your Marriage of Fortress.

22:43 It's a fantastic early reading.

22:45 I'll read some subtitles strengthening your marriage

22:47 to withstand life's storms.

22:48 And so the book has a whole bunch of different stories

22:51 of real people that you're aware of,

22:53 that you maybe have a relationship with

22:55 and it kind of personalizes some of the overall wisdom

22:58 that you're putting into a book like this.

23:00 But very briefly, because we'll take

23:01 into the actual meat of the book here in a second.

23:03 What is this specific book

23:05 Making Your Marriage of Fortress about?

23:07 And what do you hope for readers to get out of it?

23:09 And I guess you can separate it off.

23:11 Will you hope to get Gary Thomas readers

23:14 to get out of this book?

23:15 And maybe people that have never read your work before.

23:17 - Yeah.

23:18 The premise making your marriage of fortress

23:21 is that your marriage needs to be a fortress.

23:25 The time's gonna come when the storm hits your house

23:27 and it hits it hard.

23:29 I opened the book by talking about

23:31 we moved to Houston, Texas from the Pacific Northwest.

23:35 So every fall they would have the hurricane warnings,

23:38 get your kid out, get ready, be prepared.

23:41 And I kind of took it seriously.

23:43 It sounded terrifying to be in a hurricane

23:45 but after five or six years you're like,

23:47 it's white noise.

23:48 It's like, yeah, sure, whatever.

23:50 And then one year they said Harvey was coming to town.

23:54 And I was just like, again, yeah, we've heard it before.

23:56 They just make a big deal in that.

23:57 And a friend of mine calls the gear,

23:58 I've seen the weather data, this is real.

24:00 You need to get in town, you need to get ready.

24:02 Well, I didn't have time to get ready.

24:04 So we're in our house and it hits.

24:06 And over three days it dumps over 55 inches of rain.

24:10 It felt like the biblical flood, it was just crazy.

24:12 And all I had, as I saw the water creeping up our property,

24:16 covering the grass, coming up, this is so pathetic.

24:20 All I had was blue painter's tape and cardboard.

24:23 And I'm trying to plug everything in the house of the water.

24:26 And you know, it's a joke.

24:28 It's like sending in a 90 pound man

24:31 to go into a heavyweight MMA.

24:33 I mean, there's just no chance.

24:34 Now, by God's mercy, the water never got into our house

24:38 'cause we're in a higher part of Houston.

24:40 It got close, but it never did actually flood.

24:43 But I realized, trying to prepare for the storm

24:46 after it's hit, it's a fool's there.

24:50 You can't get ready.

24:51 It's like you don't prepare for a fight the day before the fight.

24:54 You've got months getting into shape,

24:56 building your quickness, building your endurance,

24:58 building your strength.

24:59 And so often with marriage,

25:00 we just kind of take our marriage for granted.

25:02 And if the emotional or spiritual or financial climate

25:06 is like Santa Barbara, where it's perfect weather

25:09 every day, fine.

25:11 You can get by with being a little estranged from your wife

25:14 or having a little addiction or two on the side.

25:17 It's not a big deal.

25:18 But when the storm hits and it will in this fallen world,

25:23 will your marriage be a refuge

25:26 or will it become part of the problem?

25:28 Because if the storm hits and it takes your marriage with you,

25:30 now it becomes the biggest problem.

25:33 Maybe you get into divorce.

25:35 Now, maybe you have to find another house.

25:37 You're splitting your income into.

25:38 You're trying to figure out how do I stay connected

25:40 with these kids that I can only see every other weekend.

25:42 And so it's just recognizing we live in a world

25:45 with a lot of storms.

25:46 You may not be facing one right now,

25:49 but these are stories of couples

25:51 that have had some of the worst hits imaginable.

25:54 Health issues, a child dying, financial issues or whatnot.

26:01 And how did their marriage succeed?

26:04 Now, can I give an example of one couple

26:06 that I think just--

26:07 - Sure, yeah. - Show me.

26:08 Daryl was a weight lifter before he got married.

26:11 Serious, he could bench press 400 pounds,

26:14 which your listeners, no, I'm in there.

26:16 And that's an NFL lineman.

26:18 It's happy to claim 400 pounds for a bench press.

26:20 That's pretty good.

26:21 He always wanted to be strong

26:22 and his wife married him because he was strong.

26:24 She had a dysfunctional childhood.

26:27 She felt safe, she felt secure.

26:29 So he married her 'cause he wanted to take care of her.

26:31 She married him 'cause she wanted to be strong to take care of her

26:33 three years after they were married.

26:36 He started having some vision issues

26:38 and they had a foot that was dragging.

26:40 And he goes to the doctor and he says, "You've got MS."

26:43 So what do you do for your marriage

26:49 when the reason you got married doesn't hold true anymore?

26:52 For the rest of your life,

26:54 you're not gonna be able to be that strong person for her.

26:57 He was, you know, he stayed off going to a walker

27:00 as long as he could, then a wheelchair.

27:02 Now he's in a scooter.

27:04 He hasn't been able to carry in the groceries

27:06 for his wife Stacy, for decades.

27:10 So how does that couple still stay together?

27:12 And these, I've said what I could say

27:15 about marriage, Kyle, and other books.

27:16 What makes this book different for me

27:18 is I just went to couples, wise couples,

27:21 who had gone to the, I said, "What did you learn?

27:24 "What can you teach us?"

27:25 I mean, this would so pull so many couples apart

27:28 where the wife would be resentful.

27:30 I didn't marry a man to live in a scooter

27:32 and he goes, "I wanna do this for my wife and I can't."

27:34 Where Darryl blew me away.

27:36 He talked about getting ready for bed at night.

27:38 Remember, this is a guy who prided himself

27:41 on being a weightlifter.

27:42 He was strong, he was fit.

27:45 And now he's in a scooter, he goes up to his bed

27:47 and he can use his arms better than his legs.

27:49 So he can get his body into the bed,

27:52 but he can't move his legs over.

27:55 His wife has to come in and move his legs over.

27:57 He's pretty advanced in it.

27:59 And he said, you know, some nights I'm just thinking,

28:01 "Why don't I just have her do everything?"

28:03 I mean, I can't, I can't take care of myself.

28:05 And then he said to me, "This changed my life, Kyle."

28:09 This has become one of those life lessons

28:12 that I never wanna forget.

28:13 He said, "Gary, when I look at my physical body,

28:16 I maybe can do 20% of what I used to do at my peak,

28:20 but I'm committed to doing 100% of that 20%.

28:25 So if I can still lift my arm, my body up there,

28:28 I'm gonna do it, even I can't get my legs over,

28:30 I'm not gonna just give in.

28:32 I wanna do 100% of the 20% that I can do.

28:37 And I've used that in marital counts.

28:38 And I know a guy that went through prostate cancer,

28:41 he removed his prostate, it made sexual intimacy

28:44 a whole different challenge.

28:46 And it's so easy for a couple to say,

28:47 "Okay, if we can't do everything,

28:51 we're not gonna do anything."

28:52 And they just let the whole sexual element die.

28:55 But they're gonna, you know what?

28:56 I wanna do 100% of the 20%.

28:58 I can still do this for her.

29:00 We can still hold each other, we can still do this.

29:02 We can still try that.

29:03 They wanna do everything that they can do

29:06 that they're allowed to do.

29:08 And so facing this challenge has brought them closer together.

29:12 Daryl's attitude is, "Look, I'm so grateful for Stacy,

29:15 and I have opportunities to be grateful

29:16 for 100 times a day.

29:18 Instead of being bitter about being in this chair,

29:21 I'm thankful about having a wife

29:23 who's loving me so well in the midst of me being in this chair."

29:28 And those are the kind of stories where, you know,

29:31 I just can't even imagine living their lives

29:35 and their faith humbles me and inspires me.

29:37 And I just couldn't wait to get their stories out there.

29:40 - Yeah. And that story itself, you know,

29:42 that's gonna ring true for a lot of guys in my audience.

29:44 And yeah, I literally had this thought today,

29:46 'cause I was at a funeral yesterday

29:48 and I had this thought today.

29:48 I was like, "Man, my physicality is such a big part

29:51 of who I am as a person.

29:52 That's probably where God's gonna test me."

29:54 And I just moved on making my sandwich

29:56 or moved on with my day.

29:57 And it's just like, yeah, but if that were to happen,

29:59 it would like irrevocably change my life

30:02 and my outlook and how I do things

30:04 and my level of bitterness and whatever.

30:05 And so you gave a story, which is really, really nice,

30:08 but I'm a little bit, I don't know if you can tell.

30:10 I'm drawn to more of the gritty stuff.

30:11 I'm drawn to the stuff that maybe isn't so nice

30:14 and clean and has a happy ending.

30:16 And there was one line in your book

30:19 that I don't know, maybe in a throwaway line to you,

30:21 but maybe this is the line in the book

30:23 that is resonated with me the most.

30:25 But it's not even a quote from you.

30:26 It's a quote that you attribute to someone else

30:28 that you heard say this before,

30:29 but it's make the situation your enemy

30:32 instead of your spouse.

30:33 - Yes. - Okay?

30:34 - Yes. - Yes.

30:35 - That's just one, right?

30:36 Because I'm a very competitive guy.

30:37 You're talking to a bunch of competitive people.

30:39 You seem to be a competitive person.

30:41 And when it's another person

30:43 on the other side of the equation,

30:44 it's very easy to make that person the enemy

30:47 and to make sure you can always be on the better end

30:49 of whatever it is, the fight or the situation.

30:52 You wanna make sure you're on the better end of it

30:54 because you're so competitive

30:55 because you're making them the enemy.

30:57 So talk to me a little bit more about that

30:59 because again, that was the sticky thing.

31:01 There's a lot of sticky things in this book,

31:02 but that was really sticky.

31:04 It was just like, oh, I think I suck at that.

31:06 Like making the situation your enemy

31:08 and not your spouse, go for it.

31:10 - I've liked to read a lot of military history.

31:12 I've never been in the military,

31:13 but it just tries men's courage

31:16 and fortitude and decision-making,

31:19 five minutes in combat could be five decades

31:21 in civilian life.

31:22 And one of the things that they would teach in Vietnam

31:25 is when they were ambushed or something,

31:27 they would form a circle.

31:28 And you made sure that circle didn't get penetrated.

31:32 'Cause if you know you got your buddies

31:34 and you're left to right behind,

31:35 you don't worry about what's happening,

31:36 left to right or behind you.

31:37 You're just making sure my part of the circle

31:39 doesn't get penetrated.

31:41 'Cause once that happens one time, we're wiped out.

31:44 And I think if guys had that attitude about their marriage,

31:47 finances hit, health hits, kid crisis,

31:50 something like that, or grief crisis, it's like, okay.

31:53 My wife and I are gonna form the circle.

31:55 What matters most is our emotional connection.

31:59 More than we solve this problem,

32:00 I've got you on a gritty story in there,

32:02 a couple that has been facing financial challenges

32:04 for over a decade, they gave themselves into poverty.

32:08 How do you like that?

32:09 People have a prosperity gospel that for them,

32:11 it was almost, but put that aside, you're saying,

32:14 we're not gonna let this problem

32:16 become between the two of us.

32:17 'Cause so often what happens is the problem hits

32:20 and you resent your spouse.

32:21 Why can't she respond this way?

32:23 Or she'll say, why didn't he do better?

32:25 Why didn't he foresee this?

32:26 Or how come he couldn't have avoided this?

32:28 And you hate the situation you're in,

32:31 and it's okay to hate the situation.

32:34 When I talked to a couple that lost their only child,

32:36 I don't expect them to ever not hate that day

32:40 when they got the phone call,

32:41 their only child was gone.

32:43 But how do you make that problem?

32:46 How do you resent that problem instead of your spouse?

32:49 Because if you let the problem separate you from your spouse,

32:52 where the circle is penetrated, then at that point,

32:55 you've got a bigger problem.

32:56 Now your marriage is gonna collapse with it.

32:58 And what these couples found is that their marriage grew

33:02 through something they hated.

33:03 They still, none of them would go back and say,

33:06 man, I'm thankful for this trial.

33:09 But because of this trial, we have a better marriage,

33:12 and I'd rather have a better marriage

33:14 than an easy life where we weren't as emotionally connected.

33:18 When I think a lot of people, they say they want the easy path.

33:20 I remember when Jordan Peterson talked about this

33:22 where people their entire working life was built on,

33:25 okay, one of these days,

33:25 I'm just gonna be able to sit on a beach

33:27 and drink Peña Coladas and just sit there all day.

33:29 And then he's like, okay, well, after two weeks is up,

33:31 then what are you gonna do?

33:32 That's gonna get really stale after a while

33:34 waking up drunk in the sand.

33:36 Like that's probably not a light that you want.

33:37 Like we need that push.

33:39 And a lot of people don't realize

33:40 like there was work in the garden before sin entered.

33:43 Like God gave us work beforehand.

33:45 It wasn't, work wasn't the result,

33:46 the punishment for sin.

33:48 It was the backing and the scaffolding under that work

33:52 that was tainted when Eve ate the apple.

33:54 So, you know, but we're not gonna get into Genesis here

33:56 'cause I wanna make sure we continue

33:57 going through some of the stuff in the book.

33:58 Fantastic book, Making Your Marriage of Fortress.

34:00 So in the book, you address the work

34:02 of a guy named Dr. John Gottman

34:04 who I'd not heard of before,

34:06 but he spent a lot of time talking about this male tendency

34:09 to withdraw in relationships.

34:10 I know breaking news.

34:11 A lot of people maybe never heard this before.

34:13 That men like to emotionally withdraw in relationships.

34:16 But you used the term or you used his term,

34:19 Stonewallers, okay?

34:21 That's very different than I'm withdrawing

34:23 or I'm, you know, I'm an introspective male.

34:25 So I'm gonna go over here in my shop and whittle

34:27 and then, you know, deal with my feelings that way.

34:29 Give us a little bit more on that

34:30 because, you know, obviously you guys gotta get the book

34:32 to get the full accounting

34:34 of what Dr. John Gottman was talking about there.

34:36 But why is talking about Stonewallers so important

34:38 for men to understand?

34:40 Yeah, well, Dr. Gottman's from the University of Washington

34:43 really considered one of the experts

34:45 in the academic field for relationships and whatnot.

34:48 He can meet with a couple and 10 minutes kind of tell you

34:51 it's 90% accuracy if they're gonna get a divorce or not.

34:53 And he would call Stonewalling

34:55 one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

34:58 It's a biblical term of these are one of the four things

35:00 that are really gonna bring your marriage down.

35:03 Stonewalling is when you decide

35:05 you're just not gonna deal with an issue.

35:07 That you get flooded, you get frustrated and say,

35:11 well, let's just, we're just gonna pretend

35:13 it's not gonna affect anything.

35:14 And it would be sort of like somebody waking up

35:17 and feeling a lump on their throat.

35:20 Say, I'm not gonna go to the doctor

35:21 'cause if the doctor doesn't tell me it's cancer,

35:23 it can't hurt me, right?

35:24 When the reverse is true, it's gonna spread.

35:27 If you don't treat it unaddressed, it's going to get worse.

35:30 And that's what happens with Stonewall.

35:31 And there's an issue in your marriage,

35:33 ignoring it is not gonna make it go away.

35:36 It's going to get worse.

35:37 It's gonna fester.

35:38 It's gonna create bitterness.

35:39 It's gonna create resentment.

35:41 It's gonna become a bigger part of the problem.

35:43 Now, I love what you said.

35:45 There's a difference between processing and Stonewalling.

35:48 If you get frustrated and you wanna go out

35:51 and pound a heavy bag down in the basement,

35:53 you wanna go out and ride your motorcycle fast

35:56 for a little while, fine, go ahead, do that.

35:59 But then come back and say, okay,

36:01 how do we get reconnected?

36:03 How do I understand where you're coming from?

36:07 How can I listen in such a way that I get

36:09 why we don't see things the same way?

36:12 It's the work of marriage.

36:14 To not do that is to spiritually divorce your wife.

36:19 And if you keep spiritually divorcing your wife,

36:22 eventually you're going to legally divorce your wife

36:25 because nobody wants to be in a lonely marriage

36:27 for the rest of their lives.

36:29 - When a lot of times you talk about the book,

36:30 I didn't ask you about it,

36:31 but you talk about just the danger

36:33 of marital disconnection, right?

36:36 That's kind of like a major theme,

36:37 especially early in the book.

36:38 It's just marital disconnection overall.

36:40 But guys, I waited until about a half hour

36:42 into this interview before we talked about

36:44 what all of y'all are hoping I asked him about.

36:46 And that's the S word.

36:47 We're gonna talk about sex, Gary.

36:49 I know you don't always talk about sex

36:50 or you talk about it too much, whatever people are into.

36:53 But there's a quote from the book that'll ease us in

36:55 to this subject matter, and then we're gonna hit it home.

36:58 So let's go to this quote from the book here.

37:00 This is exactly the point that divides so many couples.

37:02 The husband wants more physical intimacy,

37:04 the wife wants more emotional connection.

37:06 And what happens is that because the wife feels cheated

37:09 emotionally, she pulls back from the husband physically.

37:11 And because the husband feels cheated physically,

37:13 he pulls back emotionally.

37:14 And the problem keeps getting worse.

37:17 Now, there's been a lot of breaking news

37:19 in this podcast interview so far.

37:20 That might be breaking news as well.

37:22 Have you guys ever heard of such a thing?

37:24 Have you ever experienced such a thing?

37:26 I'm assuming if you haven't experienced it directly,

37:29 there is a brother in your life, someone in your foxhole

37:31 that is going through that exact same thing.

37:34 And it's a cycle that people can't get out of, Gary.

37:38 Like it is of all the cycles within marriage

37:40 that I'm aware of not being a professional at this.

37:43 That's the one where it's like, yep,

37:44 that makes the most amount of sense.

37:46 How do we get out of it?

37:46 No fricking idea.

37:47 So tell us how we get out of it.

37:49 - Okay, there are a couple things.

37:51 If we can spend a little bit of time on it,

37:53 it might be worthwhile.

37:54 First, if I look at this from a biblical perspective,

37:59 Paul says the stronger gives way to the weaker

38:02 all the time.

38:03 He said, you know what?

38:03 If you're really a more mature believer,

38:05 you're a stronger believer,

38:06 then instead of saying what to the weaker, why can't you step up?

38:09 In those situations, I say somebody's got to act like a Christian.

38:12 If your wife needs to be emotionally connected to you,

38:15 get emotionally connected without expectation.

38:17 Just say, okay, I've got to step up.

38:20 I'm the guy, I'm the man in this relationship.

38:22 I've got to do what I have to do to help reconnect.

38:26 And I'm telling you guys, if guys would take that step,

38:30 I'll never forget, my wife and I wrote a book

38:34 for wives called "Loving Him Well"

38:36 and a group of women at a church were reviewing it.

38:38 They had me come in and then one of them asked the question,

38:41 Gary, how come we read 10 books like this

38:43 before our husbands will read one?

38:46 Another wife said, I gave my husband the best marriage book out there

38:49 and I'm checking the bookmark and it hasn't moved.

38:52 Which means, guys, if your wife has given you a book,

38:53 at least move the bookmark.

38:55 They are checking and it really took some off.

38:58 But if the guy would initiate,

39:01 if the guy would bring that book home,

39:03 you mention chairs, they try that,

39:04 or this making your marriage a fortress and say,

39:06 honey, look, you know what, I've been busy

39:09 and I've been distracted.

39:11 I'm sorry, you've carried this more than I have.

39:14 Hey, I want to go through this together.

39:15 I want us to talk or I want us to go to the marriage conference

39:18 instead of making it like a big deal.

39:20 I can't even describe to the guys

39:23 what would be going through their wives and minds

39:25 if the wife felt like I'm not alone in doing this.

39:29 And it's not a guarantee, but so often,

39:33 when we're addressing those other areas of the relationship,

39:36 they just naturally warm up.

39:37 Now, depending on if there's been years of hurt

39:39 and things to work through, it might not take a while.

39:42 One guy I talked to, he had to change his attitude

39:45 for 11 months before his wife came on.

39:49 'Cause they'd been married 15 or 20 years,

39:51 a lot had been built up and she didn't believe it at first.

39:54 And after 11 months, she was just praying and she said,

39:57 okay, I'm being a jerk now.

39:59 He's proven himself, he's doing it.

40:00 He's not getting anything out of it.

40:02 I'm not changing, so it might take a while.

40:07 But I think we do first, okay,

40:10 what is it that helps my wife want to desire

40:14 that sexual relationship?

40:15 Is there something I'm not doing,

40:17 i.e., not connecting with their emotionally,

40:19 not connecting with their spiritually,

40:21 not making sure that her pleasure is more important than mine?

40:25 And then, is there something I am doing

40:27 that isn't as helpful?

40:30 One of the things I went through with the two couples here

40:32 that was really helpful for guys to know,

40:34 there's two different kinds of desires, sexual,

40:36 and this doesn't mean men or women.

40:37 Women cannot be the higher desire,

40:39 but they call it spontaneous desire or responsive desire.

40:43 One might call it initiating desire, receptive desire.

40:47 It means the same thing, basically,

40:49 that for some of us, if our wife takes off her shirt,

40:54 we're ready to have sex.

40:56 It's just if you want to have sex, yeah, I'm ready to have sex.

40:57 I mean, we don't need something to get us in the mood.

41:01 It's just, if we have a willing wife,

41:04 we're in the mood, that's spontaneous,

41:05 you don't need to get there.

41:07 Responsive desire means you actually kind of have

41:10 to let yourself be touched and crass

41:12 before your brain kicks into gear and you really want this.

41:15 And you talk to some with spontaneous desire

41:17 or receptive desire where they have a great time.

41:21 They might even be married to a spouse

41:23 who's very generous and thoughtful in bed.

41:24 And afterwards, they say, why don't we do this every day?

41:29 But then they just don't want it again

41:31 until it starts to happen.

41:33 And so they have to learn, okay,

41:34 if I just let what I feel like initially motivate me,

41:38 I'm never gonna really want to have sex.

41:41 And so you can't really change that,

41:44 but you can become aware of it.

41:46 And so I would say if you're the spontaneous desire,

41:48 don't resent your spouse.

41:50 Your spouse has the brain that she has.

41:52 It's not that there's any defect with it,

41:53 it's just the way she's connected.

41:55 But realize that there are things you're gonna have to do

42:00 and learn and understand for her

42:03 who want to receive sexual contact or her to enjoy it.

42:08 And so it's learning to understand each other.

42:13 I wrote another book called Married Sex.

42:15 I did it with a female therapist

42:17 so that we can have both a male and female perspective.

42:20 And I think one of the greatest things

42:21 that we have to help couples overcome

42:23 is that guys approach their wives like their guys.

42:27 Wives often approach their husbands like their women.

42:31 We're not.

42:32 We think about sex differently.

42:33 We experience sex differently.

42:35 Our brains are wired differently.

42:37 Our bodies are wired differently.

42:40 And for sex to be desired,

42:42 we've got to put our wives pleasure right up there

42:45 and we also have to recognize she's very different.

42:48 What makes her feel receptive?

42:51 What helps her get going?

42:52 And there are a lot of steps you can do to help with that.

42:55 - And guys, we obviously don't have enough time

42:56 to go into all that detail.

42:57 You've talked about a lot in your book.

42:58 You mentioned another one there.

42:59 And obviously you spend some time

43:00 in making your marriage a fortress going into that.

43:03 But I'm going to force you to answer a question

43:06 and you're not allowed to say it depends, okay?

43:08 And you're not even allowed to say something

43:10 that sounds like it depends.

43:11 And you know exactly where I'm going, Gary,

43:13 because I got friends that are relationship counselors.

43:15 One of them is good buddy of mine, Donnie Van Kuren.

43:17 He helps run our Sunday school.

43:18 And I've asked him this question before

43:19 and I've asked him his friends questions before

43:21 and they won't answer it.

43:22 And I got to get an answer, okay?

43:24 And that question that I need an answer to, Gary,

43:26 is how often should a healthy married couple be having sex?

43:31 - Well, it depends.

43:35 - Come on, Gary, you knew that was going to happen.

43:37 Come on.

43:38 - I can tell you, look, I've seen a number

43:41 of different studies.

43:42 The best study I can find is that it's about 55 to 60 times

43:47 a year.

43:50 What that means is basically once a week

43:52 and maybe you have a holiday away

43:54 where you have a special couple of times or whatnot.

43:57 But that's about what's average.

43:59 Now, for newlyweds, it's often much higher than that.

44:04 For younger couples, when you have kids and whatnot,

44:07 things are different.

44:08 I think in general, if there aren't,

44:11 it's a difference if there's trauma that a wife

44:16 is working through, if there's abuse,

44:17 if it's going through grief, giving birth, health issues

44:21 or whatnot, those things become, putting all that aside,

44:24 that it's not a physical issue,

44:26 that if it's just about creating interest,

44:30 I think if a couple isn't being intimate once a week or so,

44:35 I think they're not serving their marriage

44:39 as well as they could.

44:41 I do think it starts to become dangerous

44:43 because sex is exercising when you use it or lose it.

44:48 If you work out every day,

44:50 you just don't even think about it.

44:52 It's not hard for the inertia or you maybe take a day

44:54 or two off, it's not a big deal.

44:56 But then you go two weeks without working out

44:59 and all of a sudden, it's just harder to get started.

45:02 Our brains are just like that with sex.

45:04 And so if we let it start to die,

45:06 it can really be a lot harder to bring it back.

45:11 And so there are different things you can do.

45:13 Some couples have scheduled sex,

45:14 which seems terrible to others.

45:17 Here's, I think, one of the advantages.

45:18 One thing I wrote about in married sex,

45:20 it's really helpful.

45:21 And it's exemplified in the song of songs.

45:25 Okay, so this is biblical, right?

45:27 It's called simmering.

45:29 Sex therapists talk about this now,

45:30 the practice of simmering,

45:31 where if you are a responsive desire, you realize, okay,

45:36 it's hard to go from ice cold to red hot.

45:40 'Cause when you're ice cold,

45:41 red hot, my name's not good.

45:43 But if you're warm, it's a whole lot easier.

45:46 And so if you know there's gonna be sex that day,

45:48 you're thinking, "What can I talk about?"

45:50 And it's amazing, the song of songs,

45:52 how the husband graphically meditates

45:57 on the loveliest parts of his wife's body.

46:01 He's mesmerized by her eyes.

46:03 He's mesmerized by her hair, her breasts, her legs.

46:06 He just goes down, her neck, all of it.

46:08 And then there's a whole passage

46:10 where the wife does it of the husband.

46:12 And she thinks about his arms,

46:13 and she thinks about his chest and his legs and all of that.

46:17 Not only is that not discouraged,

46:19 it's biblically prescribed.

46:21 If it's your spouse, and it helps you get in the mood,

46:25 and it helps your spouse get in the mood,

46:27 think wonderful sexual thoughts about your spouse.

46:30 What's their most desirable part?

46:32 And get ready to get going.

46:35 That simmering modern sex therapist would say

46:38 it's a really wise thing to do.

46:40 And the Bible prescribed it, well,

46:42 that book was written 3000 years ago.

46:45 So it's a long time medicine to do that.

46:49 - Well, there's another quote from the book.

46:50 It's sexuality divorced from sensuality

46:53 is a serious red flag.

46:54 And I think that plays into the conversation

46:56 that we're having right now,

46:58 because I'll put it this way,

47:00 'cause there are some women

47:01 that are very physically attracted to the male form.

47:05 And then there are women that could really give a careless.

47:07 They don't care if you've got rippling muscles

47:09 on the back of your arm.

47:10 They don't even know what they're called.

47:11 Like they don't care about the V

47:13 or whatever things going on.

47:14 The bottom of really in shape guys, abs,

47:16 and like they don't care.

47:18 But then there are guys that have that in their brain.

47:20 They're like, oh, women really care about this.

47:22 I need to be a really strong chimp

47:23 so that all the other chimps want to be with me

47:25 and those types of things.

47:26 But then it becomes a whole lot more about sexuality

47:28 and not about sensuality.

47:30 But I think sensuality is really hard for people.

47:32 I don't think.

47:32 I know sensuality is really hard for a lot of people.

47:34 Gary, considering the conversations I've had with men,

47:36 which is not, it pales in comparison

47:38 to the conversations that you've had.

47:40 But that's a hard nut to crack, forgive the pun, I think,

47:42 about the sexuality and sensuality

47:45 and how there are people, and I've used this phrase before

47:49 when I've talked to couples that have been struggling with this,

47:50 but it's like, you know, vaginal masturbation.

47:53 They're using their wife as a dumpster for their seed

47:56 and there's nothing else to it.

47:58 And gosh, how long do you have to do that

48:00 before it's almost impossible to come back

48:03 to where there's any sensuality?

48:04 So again, I don't really have a question there.

48:06 I just wanted to bring that quote up.

48:07 So give us a little bit more on sexuality,

48:09 diverse from sensuality.

48:11 - Well, here's where the quote came from.

48:12 It was a couple where the wife had been unfaithful

48:15 and the guy's taken her back and he talked about how

48:18 there are different levels of intimacy,

48:20 there's sexual intimacy, spiritual intimacy,

48:23 or emotional intimacy, he talks about that.

48:25 And he said, you know, to be honest, Gary,

48:27 our sexual intimacy didn't really take a hit

48:29 because it was a different kind of sex.

48:31 We were having athletic sex.

48:33 I was getting off, she was getting off.

48:35 We would say we were physically satisfied,

48:38 but there was no emotional connection.

48:40 It wasn't until I got through honesty and healing

48:43 that they started to have a sensuous experience.

48:46 And if there's one thing I could say,

48:48 particularly to help younger men really enjoy

48:50 greater sexual intimacy, is that,

48:54 how explicit can you get on the show?

48:56 - Oh, as explicit as you want.

48:58 I don't add anything, let's go.

48:59 - Okay, let me just put it.

49:01 Penis in vagina intercourse is how we usually think of sex

49:05 is but just 10% of the experience.

49:09 There are so many other things that couples can do

49:12 to sensuously enjoy each other.

49:16 I've got a chapter in married sex.

49:17 I know we weren't supposed to really get into this book

49:19 but just about how all the five senses

49:21 in the song of songs are celebrated

49:23 on how bringing smell and hearing.

49:28 And guys know this.

49:29 Wives can use their voices as instruments.

49:32 If the wife is laughing or panting or moaning or urgent

49:38 or baggy, I mean, those are five different sexual experiences

49:43 just with their voice.

49:45 Sight is a big thing for guys, smell, all of the senses.

49:50 So that you're creating this banquet experience.

49:53 And this is where working with a female therapist

49:56 really helped me 'cause I'd never thought of this connection.

49:58 You go to a benefit and you go to a benefit usually

50:01 'cause your wife asks you to go to a benefit.

50:03 I don't know guys who usually wanna go to a benefit dinner

50:06 but she talked about how they hit all five senses.

50:09 You walk in and the room smells a certain way

50:12 and you've got all of the decorations out

50:14 and they've got the good food

50:15 and they've got things for you to taste

50:17 and they've got things for you to hear,

50:18 good music in the background.

50:19 She goes, make sex this benefit banquet type of experience

50:24 where it's not just about pound, pound, pound

50:29 but it becomes this sensual experience.

50:31 The one sexual act that incorporates all five senses,

50:36 hearing, taste, touch, sound and smell

50:40 is when you kiss your spouse with your eyes wide open.

50:43 You're looking into her eyes, you can smell,

50:46 you can taste, you can touch, you can feel all of that things.

50:48 That's sensuality.

50:51 And that's what often isn't happened.

50:54 Sometimes you'll hear prostitutes say they'll do anything

50:56 but kiss.

50:56 There's something about that sensuous intimacy

51:00 of a French kiss with your eyes open

51:02 that there's nothing else like that.

51:05 And I would say really seek to up the sensuality

51:10 of your love making.

51:11 Take your time.

51:12 What does it feel like with your hand on your wife's back

51:15 and then as you go lower in your legs

51:17 and just take your time to experience it.

51:20 It's exciting when you get to what we would often call

51:23 the main event when you're actually inside your wife

51:27 but the experience to get there

51:31 and afterward can be just as delicious.

51:34 And especially when you've been making love for a long time.

51:36 My wife and I have been married 38 years.

51:39 It really does broaden the experience.

51:42 When I was a young husband,

51:43 that's kind of when I thought about sex, it was okay.

51:45 Get ready so that we can do the real thing.

51:47 And I realized no, getting ready isn't getting ready.

51:50 It's part of the experience.

51:53 Sit back, enjoy it, make it last.

51:55 And now it's a full-blown experience,

51:59 not just a few minutes of athletic action.

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52:31 - Right, so how often do you and your wife have sex?

52:33 I'm kidding, Mary, Gary, don't do that.

52:36 Don't answer that question.

52:37 You'll give me in trouble and you'll get you in trouble.

52:39 Don't worry, you guys, don't tell me off air.

52:40 But one thing that's kind of an undercurrent

52:44 of everything you're talking about is trust.

52:46 And you obviously talk about that in this book.

52:48 You talk quite a bit about it actually

52:50 in just relational intimacy being based on trust.

52:53 Trust built by honesty.

52:56 But what about...

52:58 I'm trying to think the best way to word this.

52:59 What about if you're being too honest?

53:01 So I know a guy that was, he had some infidelity

53:05 and you guys can fill in the blanks however you want.

53:09 And when he came clean, so he had kind of a God moment

53:13 where it's like, okay, I'm gonna come clean.

53:14 So he has this road to Damascus moment

53:17 and he comes home and then he just dumps it

53:19 all over his wife, right?

53:21 And so it makes him feel better

53:22 because he's let loose of all this guilt he had.

53:24 And now she's having to deal with it.

53:26 But Gary, he went into a tremendous amount of detail.

53:30 So he talked about people, he talked about positions,

53:34 he talked about different types of women

53:37 that she knew that he would masturbate thinking about of.

53:40 And some people would say, the more the better baby,

53:44 give her all the details, gory details, draw our pictures,

53:47 right?

53:48 Like let's make it as explicit as possible.

53:50 But I've seen the damage is done to that relationship.

53:53 And it's hard to know all the details,

53:55 that type of a thing.

53:56 But talk to me a little bit about the honesty

53:59 based on trust versus guys process things differently

54:02 than women and vice versa.

54:04 And so describing things in that level of detail

54:07 can be absolutely just paralyzing for a woman.

54:11 And it's something that's hard for them to forget, right?

54:13 And I know that this couple, like when one of the women

54:15 would be around that he admitted to masturbating about,

54:18 oh boy, fireworks, like if everybody knew what was going on

54:22 in the undercurrent of what was going on in the room,

54:24 everybody would have left the room screaming.

54:26 So talk to me a little bit about that

54:27 because I know guys struggle with just how honest

54:30 do I have to be?

54:31 - Yeah, I'm so glad you're going here, Kyle.

54:35 I mean, you're really good at this.

54:37 You really are serving your listeners well

54:40 'cause a lot of people won't go there.

54:42 Let me give a layered answer to this.

54:45 The ultimate goal is honesty with my spouse.

54:49 You cannot be intimate with a woman you're lying to.

54:53 If you're afraid of being found out,

54:56 you're putting up walls of defense

54:57 and you don't know when to take them down.

54:59 And I've talked to so many wives where they said,

55:01 Gary, I know something is going on,

55:04 but he just won't let me in.

55:06 And they're fear of what might be going on,

55:08 might be worse than what's actually going on.

55:10 And it's really creating a problem in the merit.

55:13 So the end goal is to live a life without secrets

55:17 and without dishonesty.

55:19 But getting there needs to be wise.

55:21 This guy you're talking about betrayed his wife

55:24 and then he traumatized his wife.

55:26 And I think you nailed it.

55:28 It made him feel better and it made her feel

55:30 immeasurably worse.

55:33 We have to realize if you've hurt your wife,

55:35 the way it has to be shared it almost always should be done

55:38 in a clinical situation.

55:40 In fact, there are two couples in the book

55:43 where there was betrayal.

55:45 I talked to another guy who had a sex addiction.

55:48 What all the counselors said,

55:49 and I've seen some counselors say this,

55:51 if you, for instance, been looking at porn,

55:55 which I just want guys to know, if you're doing that,

55:58 about 35% of wives who find out literally have PTSD,

56:02 there is traumatic stress, legitimately,

56:05 clinically diagnosed.

56:09 It doesn't seem like a big deal to us or guys.

56:12 We don't think it's personal.

56:13 It is to a lot of wives.

56:15 But that's why they'll often say,

56:16 we urge husbands not to confess

56:19 until they've had six months of sobriety.

56:21 Now, they're assuming the guy isn't using that

56:24 to keep offending.

56:26 He's in a group, he's in a 12-step group.

56:28 No guy ever gets out of this alone.

56:31 He's working the steps, he's talking to people,

56:34 he's being held accountable.

56:36 But the reason they say that,

56:37 if it's going to be so traumatizing to the wife,

56:39 you don't want to confess, and then do it again,

56:42 and it feels like another offense or whatnot.

56:43 If you've got six months of sobriety,

56:45 and then with the help of a counselor

56:48 who can care for your wife as she hears it,

56:52 then you can share those details.

56:55 But you've got to do it very gently and carefully,

56:58 and you don't know how, frankly.

57:01 That's what a counselor is for,

57:03 a counselor that can help the couple work through this.

57:05 So I agree, I think eventually,

57:07 confessions that you've made,

57:08 not to the extent that you're talking about,

57:11 going into positions, or this is a woman I masturbated to,

57:15 I mean, I don't think those things are helpful to be shared,

57:20 but I do think you're going to have to come clean

57:23 to some extent, but that's usually best done

57:26 in a counselor's office.

57:28 You meeting with the counselor first,

57:29 explaining what's going on, letting the counselor dictate,

57:33 okay, here's the timing, here's how we're going to do it,

57:35 here's when, here's why, here's the way to go about it.

57:39 It's just going to be much easier,

57:40 because if you don't do this well,

57:44 it may become as big an assault on your marriage

57:47 as your initial betrayal.

57:49 And now you've got two big problems to overcome,

57:52 and that can be a lot.

57:55 So it's like giving your wife the one too.

57:58 It's the first hit that stuns her.

58:00 Obviously I'm speaking metaphorically,

58:01 I never want to hit your wife, but I'm just talking to you guys

58:04 that do MMA, and then it's the uppercut that you're stunned

58:07 and then boom, you're out.

58:08 That's what you're doing to your wife with a one too,

58:10 if I've been unfaithful and then you do it

58:13 in an insensitive way, it's not a wise thing to do.

58:17 It's a harmful thing, it's an abusive thing to do.

58:20 - Yeah, absolutely.

58:21 And I remember, if anybody's ever worked at a church camp,

58:24 or you've worked at a men's retreat or something like that,

58:27 you had the tear-filled Saturday night experience,

58:31 but your spouse didn't, right?

58:33 So you're coming home and you just can't wait

58:35 to tell her the new about the new you

58:37 and all the different things.

58:38 She's been at home dealing with the kids,

58:39 and the dryer hasn't been working exactly properly,

58:42 and you forgot to buy the milk and the cheese

58:44 before you left, and so she had to go do it with the kids

58:46 and blah blah blah.

58:47 She's not having the same amazing experience that you had.

58:50 And then here you come home and you do this cathartic thing

58:53 for you, and so that's always, regardless of the circumstance,

58:56 again, we're talking about a fairly extreme example

58:58 of talking about infidelity and those types of things,

59:00 but in any situation, your spouse can't be nearly as excited

59:05 about the thing as you are, they just can't.

59:07 And that's okay, like they have to come towards you

59:09 a little bit, but this is just one of those things.

59:11 I wanted to kind of get that out there

59:12 and get a professional opinion on that

59:14 because I know a lot of guys really, really struggle with that.

59:17 So we'll leave the books for now.

59:18 I really appreciate you getting into all the books,

59:20 even the ones I didn't ask you about.

59:21 That's what happens when you write so many bestsellers.

59:24 You can just kind of weave in whichever one you want,

59:26 but again, making your marriage a fortress,

59:27 strengthening your marriage to a stand lifestorms.

59:30 I want to ask you about something

59:31 that's tangentially related to our discussion for today.

59:34 And that's something that we talk about on this podcast often.

59:36 And that's manhood in the church

59:38 or masculinity in modern culture or those types of things.

59:41 So really the whole reason why I started this ministry

59:43 is to equip men to push back darkness,

59:45 but specifically because the church is doing

59:47 a really horrifically terrible job

59:49 of equipping their men to do those things.

59:51 The church is basically told men,

59:53 we need you to act like women.

59:55 And if you don't act like women,

59:56 we don't really have a place for you.

59:58 And then they're shocked when all the volunteers are women,

1:00:01 when husbands don't go to church

1:00:03 with their wives and children,

1:00:04 when their husbands are catechizing themselves

1:00:07 on the golf course and not their children at home spiritually.

1:00:10 And the church has a lot of blood on their hands

1:00:12 when it comes to this issue because to men and Gary,

1:00:15 you know this, I know this, everyone listening to this,

1:00:17 knows this, is if you communicate to a man,

1:00:19 you're not needed here, he will go somewhere else.

1:00:22 Whether that's a job or a relationship

1:00:25 or a church, he will go where he feels like

1:00:27 he can make a difference,

1:00:28 even if he doesn't have the emotional wherewithal

1:00:31 to say it that way when asked the question.

1:00:33 So I wanna get your read

1:00:34 because you spent a lot of time in churches, right?

1:00:36 You write to an almost complete church based audience.

1:00:40 You've been in a lot of these churches

1:00:42 that are not very man friendly,

1:00:43 but I'm sure you've seen examples of man friendly churches.

1:00:46 So give us your overall read

1:00:48 of the current state of manhood in the church.

1:00:50 - Yeah.

1:00:52 - I think we have raised the most passive generation

1:00:57 of males maybe in the history of civilization.

1:01:01 And I think it's showing.

1:01:03 And virtually every social issue that's going bad

1:01:06 can be traced back to the silence of Adam.

1:01:09 Men becoming passive, men not stepping up,

1:01:12 men not fulfilling their call and their roles.

1:01:15 And, but it's how we go about it, Kyle, to fix it.

1:01:19 And that's where we have to be wise,

1:01:22 before Sacred Marriage came out,

1:01:24 I did a lot of collaborative books with famous people

1:01:26 including some professional athletes.

1:01:28 And I learned something even about famous guys.

1:01:31 If they don't think they can win, they're not gonna play.

1:01:33 - Exactly.

1:01:34 - Some professional athletes won't take up golf

1:01:36 because it's so hard.

1:01:37 If they can't excel, they're not gonna play.

1:01:41 And so when the church and the wife says,

1:01:43 you don't know how to be a husband,

1:01:45 you don't know how to be a dad,

1:01:46 you don't know how to be a spiritual leader,

1:01:47 that's a great way to get a husband to go golfing

1:01:51 or hunting or working out or whatnot.

1:01:53 'Cause he'll get, wow, you bench press that much

1:01:57 or yeah, you got the biggest buck

1:01:58 or yeah, you're a Scratch golfer now.

1:02:00 I mean, we'll get our ego stroked wherever we can.

1:02:04 And so shaming men and that's where wise have to be careful.

1:02:09 If you make your husband feel completely incompetent,

1:02:12 that's a great way to make him look

1:02:14 to be competent somewhere else.

1:02:16 And it doesn't excuse the guy for not stepping up.

1:02:20 But I think the churches have to call men to do that.

1:02:23 There is a difference.

1:02:24 I think the biggest pushback I got on the book, "Married Sex,"

1:02:28 is that I quoted neuroscientists who have the gall

1:02:30 to say that men and women are different,

1:02:32 that our brains are different,

1:02:34 we process stuff different.

1:02:36 I can't tell you how controversial that was.

1:02:38 And some people said, oh, it's junk science.

1:02:40 And I'm like, what are you talking about?

1:02:42 - I read the one and two star reviews.

1:02:44 I know exactly why that's not as highly reviewed

1:02:46 as the other books.

1:02:47 And it really came down, and I stand by that sentence.

1:02:51 I had two neuroscientists look over the book

1:02:53 before it came out.

1:02:54 And I said, we got to pass them, we got good.

1:02:56 And then you had people who went on to Bachelor of Arts

1:02:59 in Sociology and calls it junk science.

1:03:01 And it took, I'm like, fine.

1:03:03 If you think, I love it when they say that there's no difference.

1:03:06 They say, okay, show me the male Victoria's Secret stores.

1:03:09 - Yeah, exactly.

1:03:10 - I mean, capitalism has showed that men are a little more visual,

1:03:14 it's not that women aren't visual at all,

1:03:15 but it's different for a man in capitalism shows.

1:03:17 I have all of these stores

1:03:19 where women are buying these outfits.

1:03:21 I tell this story, a friend of mine,

1:03:24 he went through some real financial challenge.

1:03:26 We're going way off here.

1:03:27 So he's got this out and we'll get back.

1:03:28 - No, no, no, no, let's keep going.

1:03:29 - But he's going through some financial challenges

1:03:31 and life had just been tough.

1:03:34 And his wife said, what do you want for Christmas?

1:03:36 And he goes, you know what, I'd really love?

1:03:38 And she goes, what?

1:03:39 He goes, you in a new kind of lingerie

1:03:41 on Christmas morning and just let me look at you.

1:03:45 She goes, I can do that.

1:03:46 It's not too expensive and he has to have that going.

1:03:49 She said, think Red, he was like a six year old boy.

1:03:52 He goes, I can't remember the last time

1:03:54 I looked forward to Christmas.

1:03:55 I couldn't wait and she did.

1:03:58 And then I'll ask the crowd.

1:03:59 So imagine a wife, say they're in financial difficulties

1:04:02 and goes, honey, what do you really want for Christmas?

1:04:04 What do you really hope and for?

1:04:06 She goes, I know you can't spend on it.

1:04:07 She goes, I like it.

1:04:08 I like you go out and buy a thong.

1:04:10 And on Christmas morning, I want you to come in.

1:04:11 I want you to swirl around.

1:04:13 And everybody laughs because that doesn't happen.

1:04:16 Maybe one out of a million.

1:04:17 Okay, maybe somebody, but we laugh.

1:04:21 But yet we still wanna say that men and women are the same.

1:04:25 And look, I'm gonna take the hits.

1:04:27 I think they're different and it's a message you're preaching.

1:04:29 We've got to call men to be leaders.

1:04:32 You know, women want, they don't want male chauvinist.

1:04:36 They don't want condescension.

1:04:38 But the kind of leadership Paul talked about

1:04:40 when you love your wife like Christ loves a church,

1:04:42 it's an initiating love.

1:04:44 It's putting her first love.

1:04:46 It's serving her love.

1:04:47 It's sacrificial.

1:04:48 That's the kind of thing where our kids need it,

1:04:51 our wives need it.

1:04:52 And we've got to call them into it.

1:04:54 I think one of the best books I've read on this,

1:04:57 it's sadly out of print.

1:04:59 It's a crime, it's out of print.

1:05:00 Maybe you can get a used copy.

1:05:01 It's Larry Krab's "The Silence of Adam."

1:05:04 Right, that's on our book list as well.

1:05:06 And then you know, he talks about how really

1:05:09 that's where so much went wrong,

1:05:10 where Adam has been silent instead of speaking up.

1:05:14 And we live in a culture today telling men,

1:05:16 shut up, unless you agree with us of course.

1:05:20 And if you want to say, yeah, I agree with that,

1:05:23 then you can speak up.

1:05:24 Otherwise, just don't say anything different.

1:05:27 Don't, and that's where I think we just have to say,

1:05:30 all right, well, this is just where we,

1:05:32 you're going to look at the world differently,

1:05:34 and we've got to be man enough to take our hits.

1:05:38 I worked with a famous politician.

1:05:40 Once was a presidential candidate.

1:05:42 And I asked him, how do you handle it

1:05:44 when they lie about you like this?

1:05:46 'Cause I knew him.

1:05:47 I knew what the opponent was saying to get here.

1:05:48 You don't get into politics.

1:05:50 If you want people lying, you know they're going to do it.

1:05:51 I did a book with the Vander Holyfield,

1:05:53 three-time heavyweight champion of the world.

1:05:55 And I asked him, how come at the end,

1:05:58 you guys hug each other.

1:05:59 I mean, you've been pummeling each other.

1:06:01 And then he goes, Gary, if you don't want to get hit,

1:06:03 you don't go in the rain.

1:06:04 You don't take it personal.

1:06:06 That's why you're there to fight.

1:06:07 You're going to fight.

1:06:08 You respect somebody.

1:06:10 And I just want to say that to be guys in this world today,

1:06:14 we can't be surprised that we're hit.

1:06:16 I mean, we're going to get hit.

1:06:18 You're going to get slender.

1:06:18 You're going to get lied about.

1:06:20 You're going to have your motives questioned.

1:06:22 But ultimately, I live as a Christian to hear one person say,

1:06:27 well done, my good and faithful servant.

1:06:31 The God who created me as a man,

1:06:33 allowed me to become a husband and a father

1:06:36 and to have some influence in society.

1:06:38 I want him to say, thank you for speaking up where you did.

1:06:42 Thank you for putting my priorities first.

1:06:44 Thank you for honoring the way I created you

1:06:46 and the way I created the family and whatnot.

1:06:48 And I really don't care, frankly,

1:06:52 what the world has to say about that.

1:06:54 I just want to hear him say that.

1:06:56 - Yeah, we shouldn't really care what Bernie Sanders

1:06:58 has to say about the issue.

1:06:59 And a lot of guys get really, really concerned

1:07:01 about what people are going to say on Facebook

1:07:02 and because they're spending too much time on Facebook,

1:07:04 they assume that they can change people's opinions

1:07:06 on social media,

1:07:07 I'm not sure that's happened in the history of social media

1:07:09 up to this point.

1:07:10 But I wasn't going to go there, but it's your fault.

1:07:13 You started it.

1:07:14 I do want to go into something else

1:07:15 before we get to the wrap of the show.

1:07:17 And because there's the male feminist movement,

1:07:20 which is kind of like a weird sexual dalliance,

1:07:22 it's like these men are like,

1:07:23 oh, I'm standing up for you.

1:07:25 Well, you have sex with me?

1:07:26 That's kind of what this male feminist movement feels like.

1:07:28 But obviously there's this,

1:07:30 the T of the LGBTQ revolution

1:07:33 that churches especially in this amalgamation

1:07:37 of trying to act loving, just won't talk about it.

1:07:41 Or if they do talk about it, they're just like,

1:07:42 yeah, totally fine.

1:07:44 You were Gary last week, but now you're Regina this week.

1:07:46 Sure, fine, makes perfect sense.

1:07:48 And I've even talked to Christians

1:07:50 that are well-meaning that have said,

1:07:52 sure, I will use pronouns that do not align

1:07:54 with the biological reality of the sex that God gave you

1:07:58 so as to not hurt your feelings.

1:08:00 And I could not disagree with that way of doing things

1:08:03 more because telling someone that thinks they're a toaster,

1:08:06 hey, let me go get some bread.

1:08:08 I'm hungry, open your mouth, please.

1:08:10 That's not helping that person.

1:08:11 Someone that thinks they're a furry,

1:08:13 they think they're a dog,

1:08:14 taking them on a walk and feeding them food on the floor

1:08:16 does not help that person.

1:08:17 That's not loving by any stretch of the imagination.

1:08:20 You know what I mean?

1:08:21 So again, that's kind of somewhat tangentially

1:08:25 revolving around what we're talking about here

1:08:27 in this modern fight between male and female.

1:08:31 And we've moved way past first-way feminism.

1:08:34 We're getting into fourth-way feminism.

1:08:35 And it's more than, oh, I just,

1:08:37 I'm gonna burn my bra and grow out my leg hair

1:08:39 and I'm gonna hate men.

1:08:40 It's way more vindictive than that now.

1:08:43 And most churches are caught flat-footed.

1:08:46 And instead of fighting, they're just being quiet about it.

1:08:48 They're hoping it'll just brush right over them

1:08:50 like a wildfire, but it's not.

1:08:51 It's stopping and it's consuming them.

1:08:53 So what would you say to something like that?

1:08:55 'Cause we're really getting into the hot water now.

1:08:57 Like I was shocked when I looked at the reviews

1:08:59 of married sex because it was like 3.7 or 3.8 out of five.

1:09:03 It was like, do people remember who Gary Thomas is?

1:09:05 And it's just like, it was because you stepped

1:09:08 on all of the rakes of society.

1:09:10 So there you go.

1:09:11 It's another bad setup for a question, but here, save me.

1:09:14 - Jess, again, I'm just saying as a believer,

1:09:18 I worship the creator.

1:09:21 I wanna stress creator.

1:09:22 The Bible begins and ends with God creating.

1:09:24 In the beginning, God created the heavens near.

1:09:26 It ends with God creating the new heavens and the new earth.

1:09:28 That's the bookends, that's who God is.

1:09:31 And I just think as a creator, God knows what he's doing.

1:09:34 He created a male and female.

1:09:37 Together, we represent the image of God.

1:09:40 Women matter, men matter, but he didn't make us the same.

1:09:44 And so I think everything we say and do

1:09:46 has to be in surrender to God's creational purpose,

1:09:51 how he set things up.

1:09:54 I think that's the best.

1:09:55 I think what has made sexual ethics such a morass

1:09:59 is that we've moved it from a man and woman in marriage

1:10:02 and then tried to say, okay, what are the rules now

1:10:04 that we throw out the original rules?

1:10:06 And it just doesn't work.

1:10:08 You make up your own rules on the spot.

1:10:10 It's like Calvin and Hobbes.

1:10:11 You're changing, it doesn't make sense.

1:10:13 And that's why things that weren't considered awful

1:10:16 10 years ago were considered terrible today and whatnot.

1:10:19 If we would just go back to the Bible,

1:10:21 how about being offended by the things

1:10:22 that offended God 3000 years ago?

1:10:24 How about going back things that offended God

1:10:26 and the apostle Paul 2000 years ago?

1:10:29 We don't have to try to make up new rules every 10 years.

1:10:34 I had the privilege of studying under a brilliant man.

1:10:37 He died just a couple of years ago.

1:10:38 Dr. J.I. Packer wrote a classic called "Knowing God."

1:10:41 And he'd said something before he died.

1:10:46 I saw it was fascinating.

1:10:47 His book concise theology,

1:10:48 where he talked about our resurrected bodies

1:10:51 and I never hear Christians talking about this.

1:10:53 God made us male and female

1:10:55 and then he promises we're going to have resurrected bodies

1:10:57 that are going to be in harmony

1:11:02 with who we were on this earth as God created us.

1:11:05 They won't be fallen bodies.

1:11:07 They'll be glorified bodies and whatnot.

1:11:09 But people will identify each other.

1:11:12 There'll be a sense of who we were.

1:11:14 And affirming who somebody is

1:11:17 when it's not who God created them to be.

1:11:19 I mean, has eternal complications and whatnot.

1:11:23 What I loved about it with Packer said is,

1:11:25 you know what?

1:11:26 In the end, God has the final say.

1:11:27 God has the final say.

1:11:30 I hear people say all the time,

1:11:31 well, I wasn't made to be monogamous.

1:11:33 Well, God did call you to be monogamous.

1:11:35 Whether you felt like you were made this way or not,

1:11:37 it's what you were called to be.

1:11:39 It's what you created to be.

1:11:40 And if you're not, then there are going to be complications

1:11:42 that result from that.

1:11:43 And that's how I look at those issues.

1:11:45 The farther we get away from God as creator,

1:11:49 the more chaos that we unleash.

1:11:52 And now the rules change every 10 minutes.

1:11:57 And I think you're going to create people who are bitter

1:11:59 and frustrated and angry.

1:12:01 And I see that boiling over.

1:12:03 It's really scary because once you invite chaos

1:12:08 and anarchy, and we're getting really close to that.

1:12:12 I mean, it's a scary world.

1:12:15 - Well, I think people are shocked,

1:12:18 especially people in the Woke crowd in 2020

1:12:20 during George Floyd riot summer,

1:12:22 they posted a black square on Instagram.

1:12:23 But then the next year, the revolution came for them

1:12:26 because of something they said 10 years ago

1:12:27 or something a joke that they laughed at

1:12:29 or maybe retweeted 20 years ago

1:12:31 is now catching back up to them or something like that.

1:12:34 And we live in a world where there is no cosmic justice.

1:12:37 Where societally, we don't believe in cosmic justice.

1:12:39 So we have to fight tooth and nail for justice here,

1:12:42 even though we don't even have a concept for justice.

1:12:45 - That's a great way to bring this, Kyle.

1:12:45 - But think about it, like we don't even know

1:12:48 without a moral law with which to differentiate

1:12:50 between good and evil.

1:12:51 We don't even know what justice is.

1:12:53 Like, is it injustice for a baby gazelle

1:12:56 to be eaten by a fully grown lion?

1:12:58 Is that an injustice or is that nature?

1:13:00 Because those same people would say

1:13:01 they're strict materialists

1:13:02 and say that we're highly evolved chimps

1:13:04 that used to be highly evolved fish,

1:13:06 that used to be highly evolved goo.

1:13:07 And now it's like, oh, all of a sudden,

1:13:09 I can't take advantage of you.

1:13:11 Like, well, think about why can't I hold someone down,

1:13:13 rape them and steal their wallet?

1:13:15 Why not?

1:13:16 Like based on your worldview, why is that wrong?

1:13:19 You can say that you don't like it,

1:13:20 but you can't say that it's wrong.

1:13:22 That goes to the moral dimension,

1:13:24 which your worldview doesn't give us much into that.

1:13:26 But I don't want to get it so far off.

1:13:28 I want to bring this back to the end here.

1:13:29 So there's one last segment that I like to do, Gary,

1:13:31 with certain people when we have time.

1:13:33 There's a segment that I do called,

1:13:34 what would you say to someone that said?

1:13:37 So what I'm going to do is I'm going to say,

1:13:38 what would you say to someone that said?

1:13:40 And then I'm going to fill in the blank,

1:13:42 but it's enlightening around.

1:13:43 You have 30 seconds maximum to give me an answer to that.

1:13:46 And it could be, you know, a one-star review

1:13:48 that I've seen before, it could be a big topic.

1:13:50 You got 30 seconds, mean potatoes.

1:13:52 That is it.

1:13:53 So you up for it?

1:13:54 - I'll try.

1:13:55 I don't think I'm the best at this.

1:13:56 I like to reflect, but I'll give it a shot.

1:13:59 - I love making people as uncomfortable as possible.

1:14:01 So we might as well do it with you, Gary.

1:14:02 - You can see it.

1:14:03 - He's getting to the first one here.

1:14:03 All right.

1:14:04 What would you say to someone that said?

1:14:05 I want to have a better marriage,

1:14:07 but I don't know where to start.

1:14:08 - Start with humility, start with intention,

1:14:14 start with purpose, move forward toward your spouse.

1:14:18 - All right.

1:14:20 Next one here.

1:14:21 What would you say to someone that said,

1:14:22 "I don't have time to work on my marriage?"

1:14:24 - Then you're going to lose a lot of time

1:14:27 in the effects of a bad marriage.

1:14:28 The misery it brings you, the other problems you have,

1:14:31 the longer you put your marriage on the shelf,

1:14:34 the worse it's going to get

1:14:36 and the harder it's going to be to get back.

1:14:38 It's like getting out of shape.

1:14:40 You know what?

1:14:41 It's one thing if you miss a couple of weeks

1:14:42 'cause you were sick with COVID or something,

1:14:44 let me miss a couple months.

1:14:45 It's a whole different thing.

1:14:46 It was a couple of years you're starting over.

1:14:49 - See, you're doing just fine.

1:14:50 You were all scared beforehand,

1:14:51 but you're doing just fine.

1:14:52 Let's keep this train moving.

1:14:54 What would you say to someone that said,

1:14:55 "I don't like Gary Thomas' writing style."

1:14:57 - There are plenty of other authors to read.

1:15:00 You can't like everybody.

1:15:01 I have no problem with that.

1:15:03 I happen to think the Bee Gees were one of the greatest bands

1:15:06 of all time and other people ridicule them.

1:15:08 So hey, I'm thankful that God raises a church

1:15:13 where many different voices speak in many different ways

1:15:16 and there are plenty of other people to read.

1:15:19 - Well, I'm glad you mentioned the Bee Gees thing

1:15:20 at the end of the interview and not the beginning

1:15:22 'cause we will also our entire audience.

1:15:24 Just phew, nose dive off the edge.

1:15:26 But let's keep this going.

1:15:27 Try not to embarrass yourself.

1:15:28 What would you say to someone that said,

1:15:29 "Gary talks about sex too much."

1:15:31 - I've written 20 books.

1:15:34 One of them is about sex.

1:15:35 - Okay, then what would you say to someone that said,

1:15:39 "Gary doesn't talk about sex enough."

1:15:42 They're probably right.

1:15:43 If I had more courage, I would have done it more and sooner.

1:15:46 - Well, you got a long career yet ahead of you.

1:15:48 We got a few more here.

1:15:49 What would you say to someone that said,

1:15:50 "Gary needs to write more books

1:15:52 "directed exclusively at men."

1:15:54 - I've begged my p-bag.

1:15:58 I've presented to my putt.

1:15:59 Every time I go through a new contract,

1:16:01 I'm talking to my publisher about it

1:16:02 and here's the problem.

1:16:03 I'm just being honest with your listeners

1:16:05 and I don't know that I ever have on a podcast.

1:16:07 They just say, "Look, women buy books."

1:16:09 They buy 70% of books.

1:16:10 Publishers are terrified of publishing books

1:16:14 directed toward men

1:16:15 'cause they just think they won't move.

1:16:16 John Eldridge's, of course, is an exception,

1:16:19 but publishers can't make a living

1:16:21 trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

1:16:24 So I would say if guys want that,

1:16:27 buy the books that are out there,

1:16:29 beg the publisher to bring the silence of Adam back out.

1:16:33 By Larry Krab, get a used copy of that.

1:16:36 That's a great one to get started.

1:16:37 But I agree, I think there is a place for it.

1:16:41 It's just economically,

1:16:43 publishers are very wary of going down that route.

1:16:46 - Zondervan, HarperCollins, grow a backbone.

1:16:49 All right, we need more good stuff.

1:16:51 All right, don't get mad at him.

1:16:52 I'm the one that said it.

1:16:53 All right, two more left.

1:16:54 What would you say to someone that said,

1:16:56 Gary has probably written enough books about marriage.

1:16:58 - Well, you know, I was starting to think that,

1:17:02 which is why with making your marriage a fortress,

1:17:04 it's really more of a journalist.

1:17:05 I'm going to other people.

1:17:06 I think wise couples that have gone through difficult times,

1:17:09 they have a chapter in them.

1:17:10 They might not have a book, they have a good chapter.

1:17:13 And that's what this book is.

1:17:14 It's a series of chapters of other couples,

1:17:16 their wisdom, their lessons,

1:17:18 and I'm more like a journalist saying,

1:17:20 "Here's what I've learned, here's how I've been inspired."

1:17:23 But yeah, I do think there's a point where,

1:17:25 I've seen this with other authors

1:17:26 and I've really wanted to avoid,

1:17:27 where they write the same book 10 times.

1:17:29 They changed the title,

1:17:32 but you know, it's pretty much the same stuff.

1:17:33 I certainly want to stay away from that.

1:17:35 I may have mentioned one earlier in this podcast,

1:17:38 who's my least favorite of people that do that genre,

1:17:40 that I'm sure you've done a speaking gig with before

1:17:42 that I shouldn't mention again.

1:17:43 So I don't get you in trouble,

1:17:44 I've already gotten you in enough trouble.

1:17:45 Last question of the day, Gary,

1:17:47 what would you say to someone that said,

1:17:49 not even God could save my marriage?

1:17:51 - I believe that the God who raised people from,

1:17:57 raised Jesus from the dead can raise a marriage from the dead.

1:18:00 If there are two people who are repentant,

1:18:04 open to the work and power of the Holy Spirit,

1:18:06 open to the grace and forgiveness of Jesus,

1:18:09 I've seen couples face every imaginable issue

1:18:12 and come out the stronger for it.

1:18:15 I do believe, Kyle, we have to be open

1:18:18 that one person can torpedo a marriage.

1:18:20 Might be the guy says, "I want to, but my wife isn't there."

1:18:23 And sometimes you have to pray and wait for God

1:18:26 to change her heart because I do think

1:18:28 one person can make it impossible.

1:18:29 But if you have two willing people surrendered to God,

1:18:33 walking in grace, leaning on the power of the Holy Spirit,

1:18:37 I've seen it happen.

1:18:39 I've seen it, no, a couple, they were divorced for seven years

1:18:43 and got back together and have a great marriage today.

1:18:47 So don't, yeah, this is a cliche,

1:18:50 but don't compare yourself with your problems,

1:18:52 compare your problems with God,

1:18:54 and then you have a whole different scenario.

1:18:56 - Well, I certainly appreciate all the ground

1:18:58 you've let us cover today.

1:18:59 I appreciate you being patient with the timing

1:19:01 and getting this booked and scheduled,

1:19:02 but that is all for me.

1:19:03 Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?

1:19:05 - Kyle, you're delighted to talk to you.

1:19:07 I know why you've gotten such a following.

1:19:10 Thank you for serving your people so well.

1:19:12 Thank you for being a faithful steward of the influence

1:19:15 in the corner of the world that God has given you.

1:19:18 And I just pray you'll continue.

1:19:19 I admire your courage, your forthrightness.

1:19:23 We need more of that in younger men today.

1:19:25 - Well, if you write that men's book,

1:19:27 you can obviously come back on here and talk about it.

1:19:29 So Gary Thomas, thank you for coming on

1:19:30 on Daunted Life of Man's podcast.

1:19:32 - Thank you, Kyle.

1:19:33 - There you go, guys.

1:19:34 Hope you enjoyed our time with Gary Thomas,

1:19:35 but before we let you go,

1:19:36 we are going to do a quick resilience boost.

1:19:38 At Daunted Life, our mission is equipping men

1:19:40 to push back darkness with content

1:19:41 that forge a spiritual mental and physical resilience.

1:19:43 So the links I've got for you today,

1:19:44 I've got a link to Gary's website,

1:19:46 but I've also got four specific books.

1:19:47 These are the books that we talked about in the episode.

1:19:49 So you can go to Amazon and pick those up,

1:19:50 making your marriage a fortress,

1:19:52 married sex, sacred marriage, and cherish.

1:19:54 All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to the show.

1:19:56 We do appreciate it.

1:19:57 Wherever you're listening to this,

1:19:57 please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review.

1:20:00 If you want me to come speak live at your event, or on your podcast,

1:20:02 you shoot me an email to info@dontan.life.

1:20:04 That's i-n-f-o@dontan.life.

1:20:07 Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook

1:20:08 and check out our website for everything else,

1:20:10 including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.

1:20:12 Just go to www.udontan.life.

1:20:15 And as always, we want to thank the band August Burns Red

1:20:17 for allowing us to use their music for our content.

1:20:19 The music on this podcast is our song "Cutting the Ties,"

1:20:21 which is off their 10th anniversary

1:20:22 re-recording of their album, "Leveler."

1:20:24 The links are in the description.

1:20:26 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.

1:20:27 Remember, keep pushing back darkness,

1:20:30 keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.

1:20:34 Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.

1:20:36 [MUSIC PLAYING]

1:20:57 [MUSIC PLAYING]