GABE WANDER | Maintain Eye Contact While Shaking Hands (Ep. 291)

0:00 This is on Daunted Life of Man's podcast.

0:20 I'm your host Kyle Thompson.

0:22 Let's get into it.

0:23 All right, guys.

0:24 Today, if you got a special guest on the podcast, his name is Gabe Wanda.

0:26 So Gabe is a retired army major and he is a combat veteran.

0:30 He enlisted in the army at the age of 17 and he eventually became an officer and also

0:34 a nurse anesthesiologist with the JSOC unit out of Fort Bragg.

0:38 JSOC stands for Joint Special Operations Command and that unit basically is the only tier one

0:42 unit in the US military that provides direct medical support to JSOC special missions

0:47 units.

0:48 They do that by getting deployed.

0:49 They're overseas with these guys.

0:51 It's pretty incredible.

0:52 But I do actually want to read this short section from his bio on his website because I think

0:55 it'll give you a little bit of a better idea as to why we're talking to him.

0:58 While training for one of his deployments, he had a near fatal parachute injury that

1:02 required several emergency surgeries and remained hospitalized for nearly a month.

1:06 After a long recovery and just before his next deployment, his wife became pregnant with

1:10 their first son.

1:11 The nightly herring missions combined with the lingering effects of his injuries made him

1:14 acutely aware of his own mortality.

1:17 For the first time, he feared not coming home and so he began to scribble what he'd pass

1:21 onto his unborn son should he never get to see him.

1:24 These weren't just life lessons, but tangible actions he could incorporate into his everyday

1:27 life to both mold him into a good man and help him flourish.

1:31 He added to the list with every deployment and pregnancy until safely retired from the

1:36 army.

1:37 As of today, he has three sons, the eldest of whom is nine years old.

1:40 So he gathered his ideas of raising men and assembled them so that they could have a daily

1:44 impact on young men.

1:46 And what that ended up turning into guys is this book that I'm holding right here in my

1:49 hand.

1:50 If you're not watching this on YouTube, you should be.

1:51 But this is a book that all of you should have if you have some is called maintain eye

1:55 contact while shaking hands a message to boys on being a man.

2:00 Guys, there is a dearth of content like this for young boys, right?

2:03 You know, people like to talk about the stuff that Jocka Willing has put out there with

2:06 the warrior kid stuff.

2:07 That stuff is absolutely fantastic, but there's not a whole lot of stuff that's in that vein.

2:11 This isn't that vein.

2:12 You're going to get those, those life lessons that aren't being taught in their schools,

2:16 certainly not in their schools, that aren't maybe what they're getting from being coached

2:20 on this team.

2:21 They're maybe not getting it from the church, but these are the lessons that little boys

2:24 need, especially when they're living in a culture that doesn't know how and doesn't

2:27 even try to initiate them into manhood.

2:30 So there are a lot of great things that we talk about now the first half hour or so we

2:34 talk about his past and kind of some of the things that he's done.

2:36 We talk about his military career.

2:38 We talk about an injury which, you know, almost ended his entire military career, all those

2:41 different things.

2:42 And then on the back half, we really dig into the book, but also guys, I want you to hang

2:45 out for, for later on in the, in the segment or one of the later segments because this

2:49 is a guy who grew up, he was born into a Jewish family, but then, you know, he, he was a part

2:54 of a Christian missionary family also whenever he was growing up as a kid.

2:58 And that's kind of affected how he's raising his family and doing different things like

3:01 that.

3:02 So we got to talk a little bit about that.

3:03 I asked him, you know, now that he's, you know, operating as a Jewish man and a Jewish

3:07 family and those types of things, what does he think about Jesus?

3:10 You know, how does he kind of square that circle with, you know, he's either a liar lunatic

3:13 or lower that type of thing.

3:14 So we got into all that content.

3:15 So that was an interesting part of the conversation as well.

3:17 So guys, really, really valuable information, especially if you have sons, even if you don't

3:21 have sons, this is good stuff for later, but without further ado, let's get into it.

3:25 Gabe Wanda.

3:26 Welcome down to life.

3:27 A man's podcast.

3:28 Thanks.

3:29 Yeah.

3:30 Thanks for having me.

3:31 Hey, we're going to get into a lot of great subject matters today, but I always have to

3:33 do some sort of a little intro thing.

3:35 That's for the world of podcasting.

3:36 You got to make sure you introduce the guy to your audience, but according to your bio,

3:40 you were born Jewish, but you grew up as a Christian missionary.

3:42 And so I don't know if I know another human being that kind of has that in their resume,

3:46 but it's also said that you live with your parents and seven siblings in 30 different

3:51 countries.

3:52 Okay.

3:53 So Jewish to Christian, seven siblings, 30 different countries.

3:55 Talk to me about all that.

3:56 So talk to me about the early part of your life.

3:58 How did all that work out?

3:59 Yeah.

4:00 So early part.

4:01 So back before I was a twinkle, my father's eye, parents met in the 60s.

4:06 They were, you know, probably 18, 19 years old around then, both Jewish, my mother, Sepharding

4:11 Jew from the Spain Morocco side, my father, Ashkenazi on the Eastern European side.

4:16 Right.

4:17 They, for their own reasons, were in Jerusalem.

4:20 They met each other there in a post office, got married, came back to the U.S. and they

4:26 were involved in the Christian Jesus movement around that time.

4:31 They moved overseas, had eight kids, one after another, I'm the third of eight.

4:37 And we traveled all over the world.

4:39 I was, I was born in Greece, just so happened to be their older brother and Iran, another

4:43 one in Cyprus, et cetera, et cetera.

4:46 So traveling all over the world and being around all these different cultures and such,

4:51 that really opened my eyes to just all kinds of religions and such.

4:54 Even though we were born Christian, raised Christian, didn't know we were Jewish until

4:58 we came back to the States when I was 12.

5:01 And that's where my grandparents at one point, they were like, "Hey, you know, this is your

5:05 heritage.

5:06 This is your religion."

5:07 And from that point, several of us kind of went different directions.

5:11 All of us, I mean, the eight siblings and kind of embraced it in different ways.

5:17 It was a joy.

5:18 Yeah.

5:19 Yeah.

5:20 So when you say you embrace it in different ways, is that, I mean, I'm kind of like digging

5:23 into your family already.

5:24 Yeah, absolutely.

5:25 But does that mean some people kind of went more towards the Judeo side of Judeo Christian?

5:30 Were there people that kind of stayed just in the Christian side, did people kind of deconstruct

5:33 their faith altogether?

5:34 What does that mean without getting too far into the family business?

5:36 Sure.

5:37 No, absolutely.

5:38 Yeah.

5:39 So it's quite unique.

5:40 So I joined the army when I was 17.

5:45 And I was kind of, I don't say agnostic, but I was Christian when it was time to be Christian.

5:49 I had a dog tag that's a Christian, I had a dog tag that's a Jewish.

5:51 It depends on where I was going, et cetera.

5:54 I wasn't really religious at all at that point.

5:57 One of my younger brothers, the one about two years younger than me, he embraced Judaism,

6:02 Kit and Kaboodle.

6:04 He went to Israel.

6:05 He joined the army out there.

6:06 He studied in a Yeshiva and married a rabbi's daughter and he has lived in the Orthodox life

6:11 now, just great dude.

6:13 Myself, when I married my wife, my current wife, I've got 12 years ago almost now, she

6:21 was born and raised Jewish.

6:23 And so when her and I spoke, I told her, you know, I am Jewish by heritage.

6:28 I want to raise Jewish kids, but I was not raised that way.

6:31 I will be learning along with my kids.

6:33 And she was all for it.

6:35 So we raise our kids Jewish.

6:37 We are a Jewish household.

6:38 We're not secular.

6:39 We are religious Jews.

6:40 We are conservative.

6:42 Modern Orthodox, I guess you would say, we don't keep a kosher house.

6:46 We do kosher things.

6:48 And so then several of my other siblings, some are, as exactly as you said, deconstructed.

6:54 Some are, you know, more Christian.

6:56 Some are more Christian, Judeo-Christian, they kind of just live their lives as good people.

7:00 And, you know, they'll have a Christmas tree with Hanukkah decorations as well.

7:04 Okay.

7:05 Whatever works for them.

7:06 Yeah, a bit of a hodgepodge.

7:07 But no, I get what you're saying.

7:08 I grew up in Oklahoma.

7:09 And so the belt buckle, the Bible belt.

7:11 And so people were, you know, Christian by den to birth, right?

7:13 Oh, I was born on this soil.

7:14 So I guess I'm, you know, a Christian, that type of thing, but we'll get more into your

7:18 faith a little bit later because it'll pertain to the book that we're going to be discussing.

7:20 But you did mention that you didn't listen to the military at the age of 17 and you went

7:24 the army route.

7:25 And so I ask everyone that comes on the show that's a veteran this pretty much.

7:29 Why did you decide to serve in the military?

7:31 Because some people kind of have that generational calling, well, my great grandfather fought

7:35 in this war and my grandfather fought in this war and that kind of thing.

7:38 Other people kind of have a not so fun view, but everyone did end up serving.

7:41 So what's your serving story?

7:44 So it all started with my grandfathers, both of my grandfathers were in on both sides.

7:49 The one that I spent the most time with was grandpa Howard on my dad's side.

7:53 I used to go into his office, would leather office and saw all of his medals and such

7:57 up on the wall and the pride that it gave him when he talked about it.

8:00 And so that was my first kind of exposure to the military.

8:05 But that early exposure was fleeting because life had its way.

8:08 I was living on my own at 15, living in a van, et cetera.

8:12 And 17 years old when I was like a joint that was basically my way of getting college earned

8:17 and paid for.

8:18 So that's why I initially joined.

8:20 So I enlisted at 17 as a private combat medic, moving forward, jumping ahead.

8:26 I became a sergeant and then earned a degree and as a nurse anesthesiologist and went into

8:31 JSOC.

8:32 We're in the only unit that provides direct medical support to JSOC and tier one units.

8:37 So that's why I joined is different than why I stayed.

8:41 You know, I guess is the way I would put it.

8:44 I joined as a lost teenager.

8:46 I stayed because I eventually learned to love God in my country and in still that sense

8:51 of pride, patriotism.

8:53 And I became a man.

8:54 I found my Jewish faith.

8:55 And so that's kind of like why I stayed.

8:57 So 20 years later, I exited or retired from the Army a little worse for the wear, a little

9:02 bit of injuries, but great community.

9:05 They were more like family than coworkers.

9:07 Gotcha.

9:08 Well, I know that a lot of people that listen to this podcast are veterans or a lot of

9:11 people that are still in the military, some people that are even deployed right now.

9:15 So we're so glad that you guys are listening to this, but not everybody including our international

9:18 audience really understands kind of the US military, how the army works.

9:22 They don't know what JSOC stands for during special operations command and they don't

9:25 know about Fort Bragg.

9:26 They don't know anybody about any of that stuff, but it's fairly unique that as an officer,

9:30 you became a nurse anesthesiologist and you did that for a JSOC unit.

9:34 So can you get a little bit more into the specifics about what is JSOC, kind of what

9:38 were you doing there at Fort Bragg and kind of how did that apply to maybe what was going

9:41 over there with the, you know, war on terror and different things?

9:44 Sure.

9:45 Yeah.

9:46 I, once I finished school, I wanted to be in JSOC, I wanted to be in JSOC, I knew a little

9:53 bit about it just enough that at the time Wikipedia had a little small page, right?

9:57 So proximity, right?

9:59 Portivity principle.

10:00 I wanted to be there and J, Fort Bragg was the place to go.

10:02 I had no other reason to be in Fort Bragg and it's kind of the armpit depending on who

10:07 you talk to, but it's a great place for work.

10:09 So anyways, I went there and very soon there afterwards was invited to apply or invited

10:16 to interview.

10:18 So without getting into too much specifics because I shouldn't, but any time any of

10:25 the tier one units in the US military goes out and does something from the Army tier

10:33 one to the Navy Special Ops to the Air Force and other groups as well that are maybe paramilitary,

10:42 there is always a contingent of us there in case something bad happens and because something

10:48 bad is in some that someone needs surgery, essentially bringing surgery to the as far

10:53 forward as we can.

10:55 So sometimes we will be on the X or on the target with the shooters, sometimes we'll

11:03 be hovering or circling in the air, sometimes we'll be pushed back, farther back into a

11:08 safe area.

11:09 So it just all depends on what the mission is.

11:13 Real small teams, right?

11:14 So you learn to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

11:17 I know that's a cliche saying these days, but imagine if you were, if you would, an operating

11:24 room, you have all of your anesthesia equipment or the surgeon has all of the surgery equipment

11:28 along with a tech, maybe two techs and some nurses and anesthesia.

11:32 We have all these helped because we have blood and central lines to pit in and stuff, right?

11:36 So take all that away and I need to pack everything that I need on my back.

11:42 Same with the surgeon, same with the couple other people that are there and what they

11:46 do.

11:47 So you learn a lot really quickly.

11:50 You have to be good at what you do.

11:51 You have to be able to meld the tactical portion of it because you're walking, you're shooting.

11:55 We're not shooters.

11:56 We're not kicking down the doors, but we are, I feel grateful and this, I think this is

12:02 the sentiment that a lot of us had is that the guys who are actually doing the work,

12:08 doing the mission and kicking down the doors, they could maybe feel a little bit better

12:12 about what they were doing, not having to worry about if they get shot or if something

12:16 bad happens that they'll be taken care of.

12:17 And so we were there all with them all the time.

12:19 We did a lot of training with them on the tactical side and everything as well.

12:23 So we could, you know, as you would say, know the secret handshake, it wouldn't be a liability

12:28 there and we could actually do our job.

12:30 So yeah, I know you can't get into a lot of those specifics, you know, just cause we

12:33 don't want to give away trades, trade craft and all those different things.

12:35 But what are some of the most common misperceptions that you see about special operators?

12:41 Because especially now with, you know, seals and Rangers and SF guys, you know, writing

12:46 books and doing interviews, you know, not kind of going from quiet operator to a little

12:50 bit more out in the open.

12:51 You have a different type of kid that's maybe wanting to go for maybe different reasons.

12:56 They don't necessarily want to stay quiet.

12:57 They do want kind of the, to be the seal that always pounds or chess or to be the guy that

13:02 did the special jump and all those types of things.

13:04 But there are a lot of misconceptions about that community because I know a lot of guys

13:07 in that community.

13:08 But from your perspective, what are some of those?

13:11 I would say some of the misconceptions is, I mean, I had them when I was young, you know,

13:16 coming in was that these are all superheroes in essence, didn't feel pain, right?

13:21 You saw the Rambo movies when you were a kid, right?

13:23 So didn't feel pain, you could just run until someone tells you to stop, you know, but I

13:31 think not everybody is a physical specimen.

13:35 We try as much as we can to not show pain, obviously.

13:39 But it's there.

13:40 I mean, man, things hurt, you know, halfway through my career, things were really hurting

13:45 based on a couple of injuries and stuff.

13:46 But I think it's just the perseverance and the teamwork that kind of helps everybody

13:52 get along.

13:53 So I mean, everybody is not, you know, Captain America, six foot tall, you know, and everybody

14:00 has issues and injuries, especially the guys once they get there to some of those units.

14:05 They've been in for a while, they've done a lot of stuff already, things hurt.

14:09 And you know, you just kind of got to push through things.

14:13 So I think that's just, yeah, I mean, I think that was for me was that, wow, these aren't

14:19 superheroes once you're like living and stuff with, you know, living in a tent with people,

14:23 everybody has their own nuances.

14:24 And this guy has a breathing machine and he snores and, you know, you're like, come on,

14:29 man.

14:30 Yeah.

14:31 No, I can't believe you understand.

14:32 And that's what I, when I talk to a lot of those guys, that's usually it.

14:33 You're thinking that, you know, all Navy seals are, you know, six foot five, two hundred

14:36 and fifty pound of Donnes is, and it's like there are some of those guys, but then there's

14:39 also, you know, guys that are five foot five, it's just they, they don't have the ability

14:43 to quit.

14:44 And that's something that's needed more so in these spec ops units.

14:47 But you're out of the military now, but you spend a lot of time in it.

14:50 I'm sure you focus on a lot of the changes or at least keep up with some of the changes

14:53 that are happening in our US military.

14:56 I had a guy that's in the air force in me, this email where they were encouraging all

14:59 the airmen to put their pronouns and their email bios, you know, this focus on, you know,

15:04 equity, equity, when it comes to racial issues.

15:06 You know, there's the stuff that even Dan Crenshaw was talking about here recently about a woman

15:10 that was basically hand carried through selection, a selection process that she quit multiple

15:15 times.

15:16 So we haven't been able to corroborate it yet.

15:18 So I don't want to spread any rumors if it's not true.

15:20 But it seems like it might be true, you know, this lowering of standards so that we can

15:23 have more types of people that fit a certain demographic get through as opposed to keeping

15:28 the standards high so that whenever we're in warfare, we're not in that moment where

15:32 a body needs to be dragged, dragged out the middle of the street to keep someone alive.

15:36 We don't want somebody that was like, Oh, I never did that because I didn't have to.

15:39 So what are your thoughts around a lot of the issues and a lot of things that you're seeing

15:42 change in terms of the military?

15:44 So I'll give you my thoughts from about four or five years ago.

15:48 And then my thoughts that are just very, very recent and they're they're the same, but they

15:52 kind of go along with a little anecdote from each right.

15:54 So about four or five years ago, I guess it was five years ago, I was deployed and every

15:59 time we're deployed and we're working with medics from some of those units that I was

16:02 briefly mentioned on downtime, we're always talking about, Hey, what do you want to do

16:08 when you're done?

16:09 You're going to go to med school.

16:10 You want to go to anesthesia school, et cetera, et cetera.

16:11 So there's always guys coming up and talking and, you know, we're training them on their

16:14 medics of high speed guys.

16:16 So right around that time, former president Barack Obama was in office and they started

16:21 doing this social experiment.

16:24 You may have remembered if you read about it or not, but basically they was it was the,

16:28 you know, Hey, transgenders are now going to be allowed to openly be in the military.

16:33 And simultaneously, they said anybody who has tattoos that shows above your PT clothes.

16:39 So basically tattoos that show on your forearm and above your neck, we're not going to kick

16:44 you out, but we are going to stop you from advancing.

16:48 So no more schools, no more promotions, et cetera, essentially the warrior class.

16:52 There was, you know, they were, those are 90% of people who are going to have tattoos

16:56 above their shirt and below their sleeves.

17:01 And so I, I brought up the, you know, helping, you know, or helping people with like packets

17:06 to go on to school because there was a couple guys, one in particular, and we're still,

17:10 you know, friends on social media and stuff.

17:11 And he was three quarters away through his packet.

17:14 And then because of this, he couldn't high speed guy and he's his career was just kind

17:20 of stopped at least that portion of what he wanted to do.

17:23 So that was, I think that lasted for a year or so.

17:25 I think they moved some stuff around.

17:27 So that was very unfortunate.

17:30 Fast forward.

17:32 This is more of a funny anecdote.

17:33 But so the army has, has this big rollout of their, they're, they're making their physical

17:40 fitness tests to be a gender neutral test, right?

17:43 This huge rollout years and years of how great this is going to be.

17:47 Well, last year, the sergeant major of the army, he announced that they, hey, we have

17:51 to go back to a gender specific test because what was it?

17:56 44% of women were failing the test compared to 7% of men.

18:00 Starting in numbers, only 66 females scored over 500 points compared to 32,000 males.

18:09 So all those females and then all the females were failing were risk being separated, right?

18:13 So all of a sudden they realized, I mean, they should have known, they do know, but all

18:19 of a sudden they're like, okay, wait a second, boys and girls are different.

18:22 We have to go back to a gender specific test, right?

18:24 So we need masculine men to do masculine things in society.

18:29 Women's feminine men aren't going to stop evil, neither is 120 pound female going to

18:33 lift a 200 pound male in kit off of the field if she needs to.

18:37 It's, it's just the way it is.

18:39 I mean, yes, there are the outliers and some women can just run circles around men, even

18:44 me, perhaps, but no, not as a whole.

18:48 This should not be a social experiment.

18:49 The military is there to essentially win wars.

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19:21 Well, that was the thing I remember even just five years ago, Gabe, people would be like,

19:25 okay, all this woke stuff, it's never going to get into business because markets are markets

19:29 and we've got to make sure that that happens.

19:31 But now it's like if you're a large, you know, fortune 100 company and you're not saying

19:35 these woke things that you're being forced to say by all these activists, like we don't

19:39 see any companies that aren't doing those things right now.

19:42 You have the NFL with all their stuff they were doing around black lives matter, but even

19:45 specifically with the military, that was always the last bastion of hope that wokeness

19:49 was never going to become this ubiquitous thing in American culture, but it has.

19:54 And I just I don't know what the negatives are going to be for that moving forward.

19:57 We really have no idea.

19:58 I mean, just think before we went into Desert Storm and before we went into Afghanistan

20:02 and Iraq, you know, we were preparing for warfare and those types of settings and the

20:05 way that we are now our guys are very well prepared, but they're not doing things like

20:09 this in China or in Russia or North Korea or in Iran or any of our enemies around the

20:14 world that wants to see America fall, they're not experimenting to see if they can get more

20:18 women in.

20:19 They're trying to be as masculine and dominant as possible.

20:21 So I'm kind of getting off.

20:22 I know we got a lot of stuff to get to, but maybe the last thing I wanted to talk through

20:25 here in terms of military and that we're going to be giving this short shrift.

20:29 I'm going to be able to ask you essentially one question about it, which is not nearly

20:32 enough time to talk about it, but I'd love to get veterans perspectives on our pull out

20:36 from Afghanistan, because I've talked to a lot of people that were, you know, on the

20:39 ground there as journalists, people that were on the ground there, you know, as shooters,

20:43 as people that were operating outside the wire.

20:45 And nobody has a good thing to say about what the joint, joint chiefs or specifically what

20:50 Joe Biden, the commander in chief, decide to do around that time, how negligent it was

20:54 giving up, you know, the air bases that we gave up that we didn't have to give up, you

20:58 know, keeping a small force there was never really considered for the long term, this

21:03 complete ignoring the fact that we have forces in countries that people don't even understand

21:07 that we have, like we have troops in Germany and Japan and all these other places where

21:10 we're not actively at war.

21:11 But for you, as a veteran, somebody that worked with JSOC units, you maybe even lost guys in

21:16 the wars in the stuff that was going on in Afghanistan.

21:19 What do you think about what the United States did when we pulled out?

21:24 There are there are guys smarter than me who can talk about the tactical reasons and the

21:29 more political reasons of why everything was bad.

21:31 I agree.

21:32 Everything.

21:33 Everything was bad.

21:34 It was a bad way to do it.

21:35 There's I think there was there could have been much better ways to do it, if not just

21:40 stay there because things were fine, at least from my perspective, with the folks that we

21:45 still had staying there.

21:47 When I found out about it and saw those pictures and start reading articles and stuff, it was

21:53 a very visceral feeling reading about those.

21:56 It was the same type of feeling that if you read an article about, let's say, a family

22:01 or parents who abused their child, I can get about three words into it and then I'm done.

22:06 It hits too close to home and that was the feeling that I had for this.

22:11 Hopelessness, nothing you can do about it.

22:14 Not hopelessness at a point of my whole time over there was for not, et cetera, because

22:20 I was fortunate that my time over there, I could view it as I was there to help protect

22:26 our guys and so I didn't have to go through the personal feelings of was my time there

22:31 all for not.

22:32 I was there to help save and protect and be a backdrop for our guys there.

22:40 But yeah, no, like you said, we are in all sorts of countries all across the world as

22:46 peacekeepers now after being there in times of war and I don't think Afghanistan should

22:50 have been any different.

22:51 Yeah, it's a rough thing to still consider and the further we get into 2022 and into

22:57 subsequent years, we're going to see a lot of the ripple effect from these decisions

23:01 that were made.

23:03 And these people should pay the people that made these decisions, they should be held

23:06 accountable for this and they won't be because basically we can't get Joe Biden out of office

23:12 until 2024, unless he takes himself out of the running.

23:15 There's a lot of things that a lot of these people are just continuing to fail upward.

23:18 A lot of these generals were doing what they need to do to get that next star to get that

23:21 next, you know, promotion or get that next spot on whatever board they ended up being

23:25 on after they retired or when they retire or something like that.

23:27 But it is, it is a horrible thing to see that the United States did something that was seemingly

23:31 so reckless.

23:32 But I do want to get into something that was more towards the end of your career.

23:35 But it seemed like your life changed forever when you suffered these injuries because of

23:40 a near fatal parachute accident.

23:42 Okay, so you were doing a workout for an appointment and you had this accident.

23:46 So take us through what exactly happened during this accident, you know, kind of what you

23:50 had to do for recovery and really how that changed, how you operated in life in general,

23:55 but especially in your job as well.

23:57 So the, yeah, so it was definitely a personal hardship that I had, that I went through getting

24:05 ready for a, another deployment.

24:07 We were jumping and there was winds on the field, winds this way, winds that way we circled

24:16 around for a little bit and then the winds were within jump, within jumping range, right?

24:22 So the, the, the range was okay if we could jump.

24:24 We did, there was breaking the trees at about 100 or 200 feet what they saw afterwards,

24:30 which is why at about 100, 200 feet or so, there was a crosswind that I think the DZSO,

24:36 the drop zone safety officer said it was about 31 or 32 knots.

24:41 Something along those lines we had a big crosswind.

24:44 My, my shoot and another guy's shoot became a little pendulum.

24:47 He hit his head.

24:48 I tried to do the PLF as best as I could, which is a parachute landing fall, feet and

24:53 knees together, et cetera, and I just smashed my pelvis up pretty good.

24:57 So went to the hospital and there was a branch of an artery in my pelvis that had sheared

25:05 loose and that was bleeding.

25:07 So yeah, had a couple surgeries remained intubated, woke up the next morning in the ICU and my

25:15 wife was there.

25:16 I just got married six months prior.

25:19 And so in my intubated, super state, I was like, oh, shoot, something's probably pretty

25:23 darn wrong if my wife is standing in the corner there.

25:26 And then I tried to pull the tube out and I went, was back asleep.

25:29 Anyways, fast forward.

25:30 I was in the ICU for about a week or two.

25:32 Then was transferred.

25:33 I had just PCS removed from Bragg to Washington State, Fort Lewis.

25:39 And we went there.

25:40 I was in a hospital for like another week or shoot me another month.

25:43 My wife took care of me there.

25:44 Then stayed home for about six months or so recovering.

25:50 My wife, so I think about this to this day, had I not been married six months earlier?

25:56 I was only married because I was in the unit.

25:59 The way I was introduced to her was an amazing, amazing story in itself.

26:03 But had I not been married, I don't know what I would have done.

26:05 I would have just probably, yeah, I don't know, hired somebody, et cetera, hired a nurse

26:08 to stay at home with me because she told me that I was the grumpiest person that she'd

26:13 ever been around.

26:14 And I don't remember about half of it.

26:16 But imagine being married for six months and then you're like, empty this urinal, help

26:21 me up here.

26:22 So I walk around at about 195 right now.

26:25 I was about 140 pounds is how small I got because of just the atrophy and such.

26:34 They wanted to, so there's the unit and there's a regular army.

26:37 The regular army says, hey, you're done, you're going to be medically discharged.

26:43 And I was, I think I was sitting at 16 or 17 years so far in and for guys who have been

26:47 in the military.

26:48 If you're close to 20 or it's a goal, you want to get to 20 for many different reasons.

26:52 So I wanted to stay in my, the unit, JSOC, the commanders were switching out and both

27:00 of them were good people and great guys to work for.

27:03 And they said, hey, you can stay in if you want.

27:06 And I said, yes, absolutely.

27:08 One of the other gentlemen stayed in to keep, he was going to retire and he stayed in and

27:11 kept the slot just to kind of keep it full so I could come and take it when I was recovered.

27:16 So for about six months, my job was essentially going to the gym, doing physical therapy and

27:23 getting stronger again.

27:24 And then I would go into the operating room for about an hour a day and do some anesthesia

27:29 work and keep my mind sharp as much as I could while just weaning off the narcotics that I

27:34 was on for the first couple of months.

27:37 And yeah, so that was just a big, you know, I wanted to stay in, I wanted to stay in the

27:42 military, I wanted to stay in the unit, I didn't want to, I would have stayed in the

27:47 army just to be in the army, but I wanted to stay in the unit.

27:50 That's the mission that I like to do, that's the mission that I love and I wanted to go

27:53 back out there.

27:54 So I deployed three more times after that injury, after that recovery.

27:58 It was painful, not all of it, but imagine a 95 pound rep on your back and you have to

28:04 step onto the back of a Chinook.

28:07 One leg while maybe carrying a litter with a person on it, right?

28:13 And you have to be able to essentially lunge like that and that's, my pelvis was pretty

28:18 damaged, I had a couple surgeries on my right hit by that time.

28:21 So it was a challenge, you know, and there was one time I recall we were on the back

28:28 of a Chinook getting off and same thing.

28:30 I had the rock on and I squatted down to lift a guy up and if you're anesthesia, you're

28:34 on the, on the heavy side of the litter, essentially the chest side.

28:38 And yeah, I was in the lunge position trying to stand up and I just kind of like made the

28:44 move and nothing happened and I looked up at our radio guy and he knew exactly what,

28:49 you know, what that look, you know, and he basically grabbed my rock and helped lift me

28:53 up a little bit.

28:54 And yeah, so, you know, now even, even today I'll walk like a penguin sometimes, you know,

28:59 when things start hurting and if I've been shopping wood outside for too long or something,

29:02 but yeah, so that was definitely a turning point in, in, in, in just kind of overcoming

29:10 something and wanting to stay in.

29:12 And yeah, I think I would have stayed in for longer after the 20.

29:17 That was the goal just to stay in until I was done with it.

29:20 But yeah, physically I was, I was, it was time to get out.

29:23 Well, and I know that's always a hard decision for a lot of folks and at least you did have

29:27 the ability you had a tract to basically get you to that 20 years to have that retirement

29:31 to have that, you know, feather in your cap.

29:33 But during that time and because of the injuries you suffered and some of those things that

29:37 happened, it really led you to be fairly introspective.

29:39 And so I don't really know the timeline in terms of when you had your first son, but

29:44 you were thinking internally about what lessons you would pass on to your son.

29:48 And I believe you were starting to jot some of these things down before your first son

29:52 arrived.

29:53 It was, yes, so it was after the, after the injury, my first deployment after the injury.

30:00 So in between then it was a miracle that we got pregnant because, you know, where the

30:05 pelvis is right and everything else that's there and had some really good doctors and

30:09 such.

30:10 And they were like, all right, well, go ahead and just try and keep trying, you know.

30:13 And so we pushed up our, let's try to have a baby by, you know, a year just to see if

30:18 just, just in case there was complications.

30:20 Anyways, we got pregnant.

30:21 She got pregnant.

30:22 She got pregnant, deployed and, yeah, it was just, you know, the missions were nightly

30:30 and constant, some more dangerous than others, the pain, et cetera.

30:36 And I would just essentially write letters home to her.

30:39 I wouldn't send them all.

30:40 It was just basically a journal of letters and stuff.

30:43 And I would, in there, I would make paragraphs and separate stuff to him.

30:48 Hey, you know, again, essentially, if I don't get to see you, here's some tangible lessons.

30:53 Here's some things that you need to do.

30:55 Some of them were, like I said, tangible, do this, do that.

30:59 Say this, say that.

31:00 This is how you act in this situation.

31:02 And others were more of a principles and values type of things.

31:07 And I'd come home and those would go away, you know, go into the drawer and deploy again,

31:12 you know, three to eight months later and do the same thing over again.

31:17 And, you know, we'd have another son, another son.

31:19 So I started basically compiling those once we had our fourth child, third son.

31:27 This was, we were already out of the army by this time.

31:29 So he'll be four next week.

31:34 So yeah, this was about a year after I got out of the army, we had our final son.

31:39 And then I decided, you know, it's time to kind of gather everything that I've been working

31:43 on.

31:44 I wasn't working on it for a book at the time, but it just seemed like a good time to kind

31:48 of gather all those ideas, put them into a format that can have an impact on these little

31:52 guys.

31:53 And initially it was just going to be for them.

31:56 And I started drawing and I said, nope, I am not there anymore and kind of got an illustrator

32:00 to help out.

32:01 And then it just kind of took on a life with its own.

32:03 And it turned out that it couldn't be something really special.

32:07 So it just kind of kept working on it.

32:08 Yeah.

32:09 And all that basically led you to make this book, which you guys, if you're not watching

32:11 this on YouTube, I'm holding the book in front of the camera like a good boy.

32:14 It will be in the show notes so you can check it out, but it's maintain eye contact while

32:18 shaking hands, a message to boys on being a man.

32:20 So I guess, first of all, we have the impetus behind where you kind of got the idea because

32:25 you had all these lessons, you were thinking this is going to be good for our kids.

32:27 And then if it's going to be good for our kids, probably good for, for other kids and

32:30 you're targeting it at boys and we're going to get into the lessons here in just a second.

32:35 But I am kind of interested here at the beginning.

32:37 Some people would do what you did and say, okay, these are the lessons that we're going

32:40 to give to my son, but that segments the population, right?

32:43 That segments your target audience down.

32:45 Some people might say, hey, make it more broad because anytime you segment your target audience

32:49 down, people wonder, why isn't he making something for insert group here?

32:52 That's not included.

32:53 So, you know, what would you, I guess, what about people that want a book like this for

32:57 their daughters?

32:58 And for you, you have three sons and one daughter, you know, why wouldn't you do something for

33:02 everybody?

33:03 Why make it just for boys?

33:05 The, there's a, there's a war on masculinity, right?

33:10 That's an oft used term, right?

33:11 So there's, there's, there's society is fighting against men being men.

33:17 It's masculinity.

33:18 You and I know most of the listeners of this show, no, actually, it's all listeners, right?

33:23 That masculinity, it's not the problem.

33:24 It's the twisted definition that's applied to it.

33:26 So most notably the term toxic masculinity, which says that any display of masculinity

33:31 is bad.

33:32 And that's term stigmatizes all males based on bad behaviors of some.

33:37 So now there's an entire generation of boys experiencing the, the, the, the liability

33:42 of being normal.

33:43 And that's bad to have masculine traits.

33:45 And that's prevalent throughout society, that's politics, medicine, sports.

33:49 And if left unattended, everybody is going to be a casualty of this, right?

33:54 And we will feel the impact forever.

33:56 So something has to be done there, there's, there's books out there.

34:01 There's a void of good and patriotic children's books out there, but there are so many other

34:05 books out there that speak to all those groups of the insert names here.

34:10 There are none that I could find specifically for this age group, right?

34:15 There are great books out there and I'm not trying to disparage any other books that are

34:18 out there by any means, but there's some great books out there teaching values and certain

34:22 values and stuff, right?

34:25 But, but the books that this one is combating books like I am jazz that encourages transgenderism

34:34 or feminist baby boy board book and encourages kids to be feminists and cross dress and things

34:43 like that.

34:44 And so just as much as all the, the writers of those book wants, wants every parent to

34:49 read that, I think I want every parent.

34:52 I think it's great for every parent and adult to read this book, essentially, and pass on

34:57 these values and morals to the boys because no one's speaking directly to boys.

35:01 There's a lot of articles and magazines and stories and people talking, like your podcast,

35:05 like two fathers and two parents, like, hey, this is, this is how you raise a good man.

35:09 And so I wanted something that the boys could actually sit down and look through and read

35:13 themselves.

35:14 And you know, it's, it's, it's great as a picture book that the pictures we've a story

35:19 is great as a picture book for the young ones, read along for five to seven year olds and

35:24 then a independent reader for the eight year olds and up.

35:27 And so far it's gotten great reviews.

35:29 One, it is a very well illustrated book.

35:32 I, I'm trying to pronounce a name right, but the illustrator was witty, seputro.

35:36 So hopefully I got that right.

35:38 But yeah, it looks fantastic.

35:40 It's done very, very well.

35:41 And the thing about it is is the lessons are applicable to boys or, or girls.

35:45 But yes, there's no one really talking to boys.

35:47 We live in a culture that does not do right to passage for boys that lead them into manhood.

35:51 I'm talking about the, you know, the capital C culture as, as the West, we don't do that

35:56 anymore.

35:57 There's some religious sex that will do it.

35:59 There's some random things here or there that do it, but the church does a terrible job

36:02 of it.

36:03 You know, secularly, we don't even focus on it.

36:04 So it's one of those hard deals.

36:05 But the lessons in the book are stuff that we know as adult men, but even a lot of adult

36:10 men don't check these boxes.

36:12 So it's even better for the young boys to hear it, but like clean up after yourself,

36:15 you know, eat healthy, work before you play, have integrity, honor women and treat them

36:20 well, keep your promises.

36:21 But I do want to go specifically into some of the lessons because they're, they're not

36:24 so subtle.

36:25 And that's good because you're, you're dealing with kids here and you don't want to cloak

36:28 everything and all these different subtleties.

36:30 But one of the first ones that you, you put out in the book is trusting God.

36:34 And so I guess this is where I kind of want to get a little bit more into your personal

36:38 faith because if you're Jewish and you're practicing Jew, your view of God is perhaps

36:43 different than that of a Protestant Christian or different than a Catholic or different

36:49 than a Muslim or different than a fill in the blank.

36:51 So when you say that there, are you trying to keep it vague?

36:55 Because I didn't really pull out that you were meeting the Jewish God or the whatever

36:58 God or you know, this t-shirt, this bumper stick or whatever the person wants to have

37:01 in there.

37:02 So when you say trust in God, take us into that a little bit more.

37:06 So there's, I guess there's a, there's maybe a two part answer or a longer answer.

37:11 There's the, it's not a secret is in the preface of the book.

37:14 I said I was raised Christian and now I followed Judaism because I'm Jewish.

37:22 Judeo-Christian values are the cornerstone for the Western world and the Torah, which

37:28 is the first five books of the Bible, we call it the Bible as well.

37:31 It's called the Bible of Torah interchangeably.

37:33 So we, we have the same faith.

37:35 We, there's, there's a lot of similarities and I'm having a great time exploring those

37:41 differences and similarities between Christianity and Judaism.

37:45 I think it's on that same page where it says trust and believe in God and keep your

37:49 morals high, it's, it's where the dad or me in the book, right?

37:52 I'm packing up my gear to go deploy and I'm putting a Torah or a Bible into the, into

37:59 the bag.

38:00 So yes, it's, it's specific in the sense of believe in God as in I'm referring to the

38:06 Judeo-Christian God.

38:08 It's not, it's, it's somewhat vague in the sense that a Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist,

38:14 anybody could read that book and God could be their God and what works for them.

38:18 Um, as I said, I, I've had the opportunity to live all over the world and interact with

38:23 almost every, every culture and religion and there are good people.

38:28 There are some really, really bad people and some religions that are really, you know,

38:32 focused on some negativity, but it's not everybody and there are some really good people

38:36 out there.

38:37 And so if, if the God that you pray to, uh, should not matter, it should not matter what

38:45 God you pray to.

38:46 They're a man, you're a man and there are certain ways that a man should behave.

38:50 Okay.

38:51 So, uh, to unpack that a little bit further before we get into any of the other stuff

38:54 there, um, when you're telling someone like to, to whatever God they pray to, well, certain

38:59 gods have different ideas of morality because all the lessons that you taught here in this

39:05 book and they're all fantastic, they don't come from just any worldview.

39:08 They come from specifically kind of a Judeo-Christian worldview and Christian ethic.

39:13 So would that possibly exclude someone that has maybe a Hindu lifestyle or a Muslim lifestyle?

39:18 Because the, the God that's described in the Quran is obviously very different and requires

39:21 different things from its prophets and from its followers.

39:24 So with that kind of, you know, muddy the waters a little bit or I may maybe dig in into

39:28 this a little bit too far.

39:29 Um, you know, I, I didn't put too much thought into, into, uh, trying to make this as milk

39:37 toast as possible to encompass everybody.

39:43 This book might not be for everybody.

39:44 If, if somebody doesn't agree that a man should respect a woman and hold doors open and protect

39:50 her, um, then then this day, they will probably have problems with about two to three pages

39:55 of this book.

39:56 Uh, and it's up to them if they want to read it or not and maybe issue that part.

40:00 But no, that, that's what I believe.

40:02 That's the values and morals, I believe they do come from a higher power because then otherwise

40:08 what it's just a matter of opinion, murder is okay, murder is not okay.

40:12 Let's argue about it and see who kind of wins.

40:15 But I think those values and morals, they do come from God, they do come from the Judeo

40:19 Christian God.

40:20 And, uh, yeah, that's what, that is what I base the book off of absolutely essentially

40:25 that there is a moral law, which, which we can differentiate between good and evil.

40:28 We didn't just create it for ourselves.

40:30 Now for you as, as a Jewish person, that's, you know, raising your family, Jewish and

40:33 all those different things.

40:35 One thing I am curious about, cause, you know, I, I don't have a whole lot of Jewish friends

40:37 in my area here in central Oklahoma, go figure, um, but what do you think about Jesus?

40:43 Because you know, I kind of know what Muslims believe about Jesus.

40:46 I in general know what Jews usually say when they talk about Jesus, but kind of where do

40:50 you fall on your understanding of who Jesus is outside of him, just being listed as a

40:54 rabbi?

40:55 Yeah, so, so me, me personally, gave wonder personally, I know the New Testament more

41:02 than I know the Old Testament because of how I was raised.

41:05 So, um, I'm having a great time.

41:07 Like I said earlier, um, exploring the two religions and our rabbi is a great, um, he's

41:12 a young guy.

41:13 He used to be in the military.

41:14 He's actually in the reserves right now and, um, very approachable and stuff and we have

41:18 a great conversations about it as do I with some of the other, um, I guess, uh, whatever

41:22 the Jewish word for deacons are or the, uh, gabbai, I think what they call them, um, about,

41:28 about these topics as a whole Judaism believes that yes, Jesus was a person and he existed

41:33 and he did things.

41:34 I don't believe that he was the Messiah.

41:36 Um, me, what have, you know, where, where am I and all this?

41:40 I, I, I haven't quite, I haven't quite delved in yet and, uh, I don't have an answer.

41:48 I guess to myself, right?

41:50 So, um, I know as, as, as, as Christians, right, I'm, I'm used to, you pray whenever

41:56 it's time to pray, you pray to God for this, you pray to God for that.

42:00 You essentially have a relationship with God, Jews do the same thing, right?

42:02 So a lot of my questions to these, you know, to some of these, uh, elders and such is what

42:08 do I do for this?

42:09 How do I do this?

42:10 And, um, comparing the two and, uh, it's great.

42:14 So, um, I don't, personally, I don't dwell on that nuance of, you know, was Jesus the

42:22 Son of God, um, was he not, um, I know that Judy, Jews, they do not believe that Jesus

42:27 was the Messiah and that he was a person and he was not a, he was, you know, uh, he did

42:33 some great things and he was a prophet, but it was not the Messiah.

42:37 So that is what Jews believe.

42:38 Yeah.

42:39 Okay.

42:40 So interesting thing about that as well.

42:41 Have you ever read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis?

42:44 I have not known.

42:45 Okay.

42:46 So, so that might be one.

42:47 He's, he's a guy that was an atheist for most of his life and then became a Christian,

42:49 but he's an early kind of 20th century English author.

42:53 Uh, he talked about mere Christianity introduces the idea of the trilema.

42:57 So, uh, cause we can't categorically put Jesus in one category.

43:02 So the trilema is Jesus was one of three things.

43:05 He was either a liar, a lunatic or Lord.

43:08 That's it.

43:09 He was either lying about who he was and what he came to earth to do.

43:12 He was a lunatic and actually believed it or he is actually the Lord.

43:16 And so that's the thing that I would just encourage you to do.

43:18 And you know, we certainly need to get back to talking about the book, but just to kind

43:21 of take the long out route to come back here, that is something that you really should reckon

43:25 with a little bit further because he has to be put in one of those three categories and

43:28 I can respect someone intellectually that says, Oh, he's a liar or he was made a liar

43:33 by his followers after he died.

43:34 They made up the New Testament, they, they made up and forged all these documents, this

43:37 that and the other thing.

43:38 So that would be something that I would encourage you to really look at further because the

43:42 thing about it is is he either was resurrected on the third day after being killed on a Roman

43:46 cross or he wasn't.

43:48 And so that is kind of the mainstay in the main breaking point between the old law and

43:52 the new law.

43:53 So you and I can probably talk a little bit more off air and kind of go into that a little

43:56 bit further because you seem like you're on a truth journey.

43:58 And if there's something I can do to assist that, I would absolutely love to, but another

44:01 lesson that you talk about in the book, and this is the namesake for the book, which

44:05 is maintain eye contact while shaking hands.

44:08 And I got to tell you, that is such a huge thing for me.

44:11 And it's, it's very, very important because I can remember being a young kid, six, seven

44:15 years old.

44:16 And my dad telling me to go up to a man and say, Hey, give that guy a good handshake.

44:21 And I knew what that meant.

44:22 That didn't mean just placing my hand inside his.

44:24 It was to shake his hand, put a firm grip on it, not too firm, but firm enough and look

44:29 the guy in the eye and say, Hello, that's not something that I really see parents doing

44:33 much of.

44:34 And it's not really something that I guess comes natural to every single guy.

44:38 So for you, why, why make that the namesake of the book and why is that so important?

44:42 So I may, well, one, let's see, it's the namesake of the book and it's so important for a couple

44:50 of reasons.

44:51 And going back to the Judaism and Christianity thing really quickly, Judaism says that if

44:58 you do the action, then the feeling will come as opposed to Christianity, which would say

45:04 something like it doesn't matter if you give the bum $5, if you, if it's not in your heart,

45:11 if you don't feel like giving the bum $5, the action of giving him $5 doesn't count.

45:16 Judaism says, Hey, you did the action.

45:19 And so in the end, the bum has $5.

45:21 So you do them.

45:22 That's what you do the good deed and the heart will follow.

45:26 So fast forward to the shaking hands and maintaining eye contact and a firm grip and three shakes,

45:32 etc.

45:33 If you don't know how to be a man, if you're on the journey to being a man, then do the

45:38 actions, do the actions and you will feel like a man.

45:42 And then that's a good start.

45:44 So if you don't know what it means to be a man, then do some manly action.

45:47 So that's the tangible things in the book, right?

45:49 Shake hands correctly, open a door, do this, do that.

45:54 And then you will start internalizing and getting on that journey to actual manhood.

46:00 So and then going back to just everyday life, right?

46:04 Like you said, you'll see I see every day at work and just in around the community, people

46:10 who are shaking hands with their kids or having their kids shake someone's hand and some do

46:14 it great.

46:15 And you're like, I love it.

46:16 And then there's others that don't.

46:19 And the parents try, you know, and the kids got his eye on the phone and everything.

46:23 And so yeah, I think that's just one of the, one of the core things about manhood that

46:28 if you can't look somebody in the eye and shake their hand firmly, then it's just gosh,

46:33 it's just so hopeless.

46:34 Well, and it's, it's, it's a way of introducing yourself to somebody.

46:37 And I have friends to this day and I may ask you a question about a little bit later that

46:41 to this day, they're grown men with kids and they just have a dead fish handshake.

46:45 And I'm like, we've talked about this, brother, like what, what is the deal?

46:48 I know you're capable, you're physically capable of squeezing my hand.

46:52 What are you doing?

46:53 And he's not doing it just to be a bug because I have friends like that too.

46:55 But another lesson that comes out of the book that I absolutely loved was don't be a victim.

47:00 Because we live in this world where you are given plot.

47:03 It's you're given a higher standing in, in culture.

47:07 If you're a victim of some kind, whereas not that long ago in the not too distant past,

47:13 that was not something that we looked for.

47:14 We looked for victors.

47:16 We looked for victors to protect victims.

47:18 We didn't go on a search to find as many victims as possible.

47:21 So why did you decide to focus in on that on the book?

47:25 When you have a lot of boys and they see if they see some of their friends or some people

47:33 in their life basically gaining from victimhood, whether it's on TV or their friends crying

47:38 or somebody's whining or whatever's going on in the news if they catch a snippet of it.

47:44 They will take the easiest path.

47:46 Human nature will take the easiest path to getting things, whether it's as a kid or as

47:52 an adult.

47:53 And the easiest path is victimhood because that's what the media is showing these days.

47:58 If the easiest path is victimhood, then that's what they are going to start doing, whether

48:03 it's crying for something or whining for something or so and so hurt me or this or that.

48:07 So that's something that's near and dear to me as well is, yeah, it's just, we are all

48:15 given the same opportunity.

48:17 We are lucky to be in America.

48:19 That's our privilege.

48:21 And we have the same, we all have the equal opportunity.

48:24 And what you do with that is up to you.

48:27 So I'm a firm believer in meritocracy.

48:31 If you work hard, you will get more than the guy who doesn't work hard.

48:37 Grades, money, life, happiness.

48:39 You have to work at everything.

48:41 You have to work at your happiness.

48:42 You have to work at friendship.

48:43 You have to work at your tribe.

48:44 You have to work at your grades.

48:46 And if you're not good at something, great, find something else that you're good at.

48:50 But sitting back on your laurels and asking for something is just not the way to go.

48:55 I don't want to see my kids fall into that.

48:57 Yeah, absolutely.

48:58 And one thing that kind of comes off of that is the whole sheepdog mindset, which we talk

49:01 about in this podcast quite often, the wolf, the sheep and the sheepdog.

49:05 And I think it's amazing to introduce that.

49:07 And we saw that in the movie American Sniper where it was kind of shown there that the

49:10 father was showing the son, like, you know, kind of what happens, explaining to him the

49:13 lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman concept of being a sheepdog and all those different things.

49:17 But why introduce that in your book as well, because I think I keep asking you questions

49:21 that I pretty much know the answer to, but I just want to tee you up to talk about that.

49:25 So why did you add the sheepdog concept in the book?

49:29 We see.

49:31 So this is something that I talk to my boys about all the time.

49:35 I have a nine, five and three year old, and I talk to the girl about it to the seven year

49:39 old and I talk to my eldest daughter about it too, and it's your responsibility.

49:48 You have a responsibility as a male to be a protector.

49:53 It's innate.

49:54 You can't change it.

49:55 Males are protectors and providers and you can push it down and try to be as feminine

49:59 as possible.

50:01 But if you are going to fully actualize what it means to be a male is to be a protector

50:05 and be a provider, stand for a stand for truth, fight evil.

50:10 And so I want them to know that that is normal, embrace that and cultivate that and you have

50:18 a responsibility.

50:19 You have a responsibility to be a protector.

50:22 Don't just stand by and watch even if it's to your own detriment, of course, tactically

50:28 sound and et cetera, et cetera.

50:31 But it's your responsibility and if we don't have young boys growing up to be men who are

50:38 willing to do that and stand between good and evil, then again, we're going to be a dystopian

50:45 society as you know, C.S. Lewis mentions in one of his other books.

50:49 Yeah, one of the things that's interesting about that as well is the downstream effects

50:53 of what happens with someone that doesn't focus on being a sheepdog is that we do have

50:58 people that get taken advantage of and the people are always looking around with where

51:01 are the sheepdogs?

51:02 Well, sheepdogs don't just do that for a living.

51:04 There are sheepdogs that do that for a living.

51:05 They're in the military law enforcement officer officers, other first responders, but there

51:09 are instances where they're not nearby and somebody needs to intercede.

51:13 And for these young men, if they see that modeled, that's very important because they're going

51:17 to see their dad be courageous.

51:19 They're going to see their dad, you know, work with concealed carry or knife fighting.

51:22 They're going to see their dad working on his martial skills, those types of things.

51:25 And that's something that they can model as they continue to grow up.

51:28 But I don't want to just completely pat it on the back here.

51:31 There was one lesson in there that I did want to push back on just a little bit, but in

51:35 a friendly way.

51:36 So in general, the idea was you can do anything that you want to.

51:40 And that's been a common refrain for parents for, I don't know how long it wasn't just

51:43 my generation.

51:44 It was all generations.

51:45 You can be anything you want to be.

51:46 I think that was especially for millennials and now into Gen Z.

51:49 And the reality is I think that that has caused some major issues for kids because there's

51:54 a legitimate examples that people always come up with where, which is like, hey, I'm 5'9,

51:58 195 pounds.

51:59 There's no one that looks like me in the NBA, right?

52:01 So I was not going to do work as hard as I could.

52:04 And then all of a sudden end up in the NBA, it wasn't in the cards for me, but there are

52:07 a lot of things that you can control.

52:09 But I guess I have issues with people putting no parameters on saying you can do anything

52:13 you want, son, because for my kid, I'm going to tell them there is beauty in diminishment

52:17 of your options, because like an artist is like, I don't want to be, you know, controlled

52:22 or anything like that.

52:23 But the moment you pick a canvas, you are now stuck on that size of canvas.

52:27 There's only so much you can do with that canvas.

52:29 There's only so many sounds you can make with the drum set, that type of thing.

52:32 So I know that I'm putting a lot more effort, a lot more philosophical effort into this

52:36 and maybe a seven year old is going to pick up on, but do you see any issues with maybe

52:39 telling a kid, yeah, you can do whatever you want, when the reality is they can't.

52:43 So I do and I actually agree with you, which is why I'm going to say that I think the word

52:48 in the book is you can have anything you want as opposed to be anything you want.

52:52 Okay, I'm ready.

52:53 You keep going.

52:54 I'm going to look at it.

52:55 But let me look at it.

52:56 So my, yeah, I have a book behind me, I should probably look it up too.

53:00 So you're not allowed to do that.

53:02 My show.

53:03 I'm allowed to do it.

53:04 Right.

53:05 Right.

53:06 So it's going to change my answer if it actually does said be.

53:07 But it, yes, I completely agree with you.

53:09 A five foot eight Jewish kid is not going to be in the NBA.

53:12 I'm never going to be a fast runner.

53:14 My nine year old is never going to be a marathon runner based on how I see him run.

53:20 But you can have anything you want.

53:22 If you put your mind to it is, is, so I completely agree with you that yes, there are, there

53:27 are some parameters, obviously there are some skills that we were given.

53:31 There are some skills and talents that everybody was given and not everybody can be anything

53:35 that they want.

53:36 I agree with you.

53:37 All right.

53:38 I did find the section.

53:39 So guys, you know, here I am where we're going right into it here.

53:41 So I'm going to just read it as it's written.

53:42 I don't have a page number here, but here we go.

53:44 Things are rarely fair and you're not owed a thing.

53:47 Nothing in life comes easier free, but you can achieve anything you want, son.

53:51 If you're the best man, you can be.

53:53 So I appreciate that.

53:55 Thank you for the clarification.

53:56 I kind of, as I read it, that's kind of what I got from it, but I'm glad we're kind of

54:00 on the same page there because with my son, that's a year and a half old and, you know,

54:04 the son on the way, that's, that's something that I'm going to be very, very specific with

54:07 them about is like, Hey, son, there's certain things that will be in the cards for you.

54:10 Some things won't be in the cards.

54:11 Like I wish that I was six foot eight and 275 pounds that ran a four, four, 40.

54:16 That would be amazing.

54:17 But that's just not the hand that I was dealt.

54:18 You have to play the hand that you were dealt.

54:20 And another thing, and you've talked about this a little bit, there's another thing in

54:22 the book that you talk about, which is that it's a privilege to live in America.

54:26 That's one thing that I feel like even patriotic parents forget to bestow in their children.

54:30 You know, they don't take that, that, that chance on, on, or that opportunity on Veterans

54:35 Day or on Independence Day or on any of these other holidays to say, do you understand how

54:39 amazing this is that we live in this country?

54:41 Do you understand how hard it is to live other places?

54:44 It doesn't mean that they're less than we are, but it's just different.

54:47 They're not as, as open as we can be here, but why, why spend so much time?

54:51 Because obviously you're, you're a veteran.

54:52 So you would think that would be in there.

54:53 But why do parents not focus on teaching their kids about how much of a privilege it

54:56 actually is to live here?

54:58 They haven't been other places.

55:00 They, I grew up all over the world and there are some great places over there.

55:03 And then in my adult years, I traveled all over the world in the military and there's

55:07 no better way to cement the greatness of America in your mind than deploying around

55:11 the world and seeing the best that every country has to offer and it still pales in comparison

55:15 to the US.

55:16 There are some, like I said, some great places out there and there's, but I would, I would

55:21 never give up America on its worst day for any other place on its best day.

55:27 And that's something that I have tried to impart to my kids from the very beginning.

55:31 There's, and anybody can do it really.

55:33 I mean, even if you're not near a military base, there's always something.

55:36 I mean, just look at, look at Andy, there's going to be a veteran cemetery nearby.

55:39 Like I took the kids on Memorial Day and we helped them plant flags and the, or place

55:45 flags at the veteran graves or on July 4th and we just basically talk about the greatness

55:53 of America basically.

55:55 And so I think that's just really, really important because without the, without passing

56:00 on that patriotism, without passing on that love for country, then this country is going

56:06 to no longer exist as the generations grow and grow.

56:10 Absolutely.

56:11 Yeah.

56:12 Right now there's, yeah.

56:13 I'm sorry.

56:14 I was just going to say the, the thing that's important for parents understand as well is

56:18 it doesn't mean you just have to, you know, basically whitewash history as you present

56:21 America to your children.

56:22 I think when they're of age where they can understand good and evil a little bit better

56:25 in those types of things, talk about, you know, slavery, talk about the internment of

56:30 the Japanese during the wars, talk about, talk about the Mealai massacre, talk about

56:34 all these different things.

56:35 And again, those are at different levels of age appropriateness for sure, but it's just

56:38 like you're not describing it as this perfect entity, but it's kind of like, I forget the

56:42 quote exactly, but it's like, I think it was Winston Churchill.

56:45 It's like a capitalism is the worst financial program except for all the others, right?

56:51 It's kind of that idea to where it's like America is the worst country in the world that we've

56:54 ever seen except for all the other countries, right?

56:56 It's one of those things where you can talk about America warts and all and still see her

56:59 as a net positive, but the last thing I want to talk about, and there are way more lessons

57:03 in the book again, guys, you got to go in the show notes and pick up a copy for yourself

57:06 for your sons as well, is to just embrace your masculinity.

57:09 But here's the thing, Gabe, I've been reliably informed that masculinity is toxic.

57:14 No matter what.

57:15 Yeah.

57:16 Right.

57:17 And so why in the world would we want to give our young boys this idea that masculinity

57:20 is something that they should embrace?

57:22 Yeah.

57:23 So contrary to what some in our society would have as a belief, boys are our future, right?

57:27 They're going to become the brave men who will stand between good and evil, be great leaders,

57:31 better our country, become fathers.

57:33 So men have unique impulses and traits and we need to encourage boys to harness that

57:38 and innate aggression and ambition and use it for good and surround them with the fringe

57:44 idea that it's okay to be masculine, right?

57:47 So like I said earlier, good men or weak men don't stop evil, good men do, and we need

57:53 to create or we need to encourage those boys, our boys to become good men.

58:00 So then those good men can become good fathers and we can keep passing this on, you know?

58:03 So like we, we as men, we bring our talents to work, we bring our talents to the gym and

58:10 any other extracurricular activities that we do, we need to, we need to intentionally

58:15 bring those talents as a father and because the, the conception of a child is the fun

58:22 part, intentionally showing up and choosing to be a father every day.

58:27 That's the hard part.

58:28 And so that's, that's what we need to try to do.

58:31 And that's what I think most of the listeners on here are trying to do and you and I and

58:34 I just would like to encourage everybody to, it's, it's hard.

58:38 I mean, I, I tell myself literally every day when I'm driving home from work or whenever

58:41 I'm driving home is, is okay, I'm going to walk in and this are the tangible things I'm

58:45 going to do.

58:46 I'm going to put my stuff down and when they kiss my wife, I'm going to say hi to the

58:49 kids, each one gets a little pat or whatever they need.

58:52 And gosh, it's still a challenge that you walk in the door and I just want to start,

58:56 you know, you need to do this, you need to do that, you know, but it's just, it's thinking

59:00 about it and making that effort and trying to do it and being a little bit better today

59:04 than you were yesterday.

59:05 We all, everyone talks about it in the gym, right, be 1% better and stuff.

59:09 But if you can do that as a father as well, gosh, that's beautiful thing.

59:12 Absolutely.

59:13 So you're a published author, you're a big deal now, Gabe.

59:16 So what's in the future?

59:17 Do we have some more kids books coming or is this a one and done?

59:20 No, there's, there's, there's a, there's a follow up to this one that it's just, it's

59:25 just an infancy stages.

59:27 And it's, it'll be something along the lines of, you know, dad taught all this to the boys,

59:34 now dad's actually gone and the boys have to sort of use the lessons that they've learned

59:40 to sort of come, overcome some obstacles that, you know, basically step up and be the man

59:45 of the house and, et cetera, you know.

59:48 And then, you know, as my little seven year old, when are you going to write a book about

59:52 how to be a girl?

59:53 So that's, that's probably more, you know, if it comes from a father's perspective versus

59:59 a mother's perspective or something along those lines.

1:00:02 So yeah, that'll be something.

1:00:03 Well, you certainly have an audience here whenever that day comes where you can come

1:00:07 and talk about whatever the new work is, but I know you listened to the show.

1:00:10 So you knew that this was coming, but I didn't give you the, the questions to prepare.

1:00:13 But at the end of my interviews with certain guests, I like to do a segment called, what

1:00:17 would you say to someone that said?

1:00:18 And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to say, what would you say to someone that said,

1:00:21 I'm going to fill in the blank and then you've got 30 seconds tops to give me your response.

1:00:26 And this could be about a big subject.

1:00:27 It could be about a funny subject, any number of things.

1:00:29 But that's it.

1:00:30 30 seconds.

1:00:31 I will cut you off.

1:00:32 I will be rude about it.

1:00:33 So are you up for it?

1:00:34 Okay.

1:00:35 Yes.

1:00:36 Let's, let's do it.

1:00:37 Let's let's make this happen.

1:00:38 All right.

1:00:39 The first one here, what would you say to someone that said, I just don't have the time

1:00:42 or capacity to invest in my relationship with my kids?

1:00:48 I would say that you don't have the option.

1:00:52 You made the kid.

1:00:53 That's your time.

1:00:54 You have to do it.

1:00:55 There's no, there's a, yeah, that's number one.

1:00:58 You have to.

1:00:59 All right.

1:01:00 Next one here.

1:01:01 What would you say to someone that said, why would you encourage boys to act like men?

1:01:04 They may not even know what their gender is yet men and women have been cooperating socially

1:01:12 and biologically since the beginning of time.

1:01:15 And it's ludicrous to think that some, this generation of woke activists have somehow

1:01:19 found a better way.

1:01:22 The Bible talks about men and women.

1:01:23 The Torah talks about the wonderful differences and unique responsibilities, men roles between

1:01:29 men and women.

1:01:30 And yes, there are men and there are women period.

1:01:34 How dare you say something so big in it on my show?

1:01:36 How dare you?

1:01:37 All right.

1:01:38 We're going to get into the next one.

1:01:39 Guys, for anyone listening, you should see the smile on my face.

1:01:41 Tons of sarcasm.

1:01:42 They're dripping with sarcasm.

1:01:43 Next one here.

1:01:44 Someone that said, spec ops fighters have a death wish.

1:01:51 I think spec ops fighters have a calling and that is what they are good at.

1:01:58 If that is what they are good at, if that is what they're calling, then by all means

1:02:02 they need to go in there and do the best that they can with their calling get trained as

1:02:07 best as they can and use those traits.

1:02:10 Those are masculine traits.

1:02:12 Use those masculine traits for good for themselves, for their community, for the country.

1:02:17 So no, I don't think it's a death wish.

1:02:19 I think it's them living up to their potential.

1:02:22 All right.

1:02:23 Next one here.

1:02:24 What would you say to someone that said, the United States's time of being the dominant

1:02:27 world power will soon be at an end?

1:02:32 I would punch that, Tommy.

1:02:34 No.

1:02:35 Yeah, like we said a little bit earlier, this is the best country on earth.

1:02:43 It was founded with righteous principles and those principles and that founding document

1:02:49 is what makes this country great and the American spirit.

1:02:53 That I'd be hard to describe in 30 seconds, but the American spirit of never quitting

1:02:59 and freedom and just, you know, it doesn't matter who the president is and what really

1:03:05 bad thing policies they put in place, it'll all, they can always point to something and

1:03:10 say, look how great my policies were because the Americans will persevere regardless.

1:03:15 And so, yeah, it's, it is a great place because of its people.

1:03:21 All right.

1:03:22 Next one here.

1:03:23 What would you say to someone that said, I have a buddy with a lamp handshake?

1:03:28 Why them this book and no, yeah, no, just explain to them perhaps if they are, if they

1:03:36 are physically able to have a strong handshake, explain to them what it means and what it says

1:03:43 about them and what it says to the people around them if that is the type of handshake

1:03:48 that they have.

1:03:49 All right.

1:03:50 Just a few more left.

1:03:51 You're doing great.

1:03:52 What would you say to someone that said masculinity is dangerous?

1:03:56 No, we, the lack of masculinity is dangerous.

1:04:02 It's not that masculinity is dangerous.

1:04:04 Masculinity can't be changed, right?

1:04:06 We are men.

1:04:07 We have masculine traits and then we use our masculine traits for good or bad.

1:04:12 If someone uses their masculine traits for evil, that person is an evil person.

1:04:17 So masculinity is not good or bad.

1:04:21 We are masculine men and we have the same traits as a bad person.

1:04:24 But we are able to control it.

1:04:26 We can be a gentleman and we can use our masculine traits as tools for good.

1:04:31 So no, I say absolutely not.

1:04:33 Yeah.

1:04:34 If you think masculinity is dangerous, just see what not having masculinity around us

1:04:38 for people.

1:04:39 So all right.

1:04:40 A couple more here.

1:04:41 What would you say to someone that said, go Navy beat army?

1:04:44 Sorry.

1:04:45 My father in law was, was Navy for 24 years.

1:04:50 And so I can't be, can't be too rough on the Navy because I appreciate him for introducing

1:04:55 me to his daughter, but no one, no one ever writes.

1:04:59 So to quote a meme, no, no little kid ever said, let's go outside and play Navy.

1:05:04 So they all go outside and play army.

1:05:06 That's actually true.

1:05:07 I have friends both in the Navy and the Army.

1:05:09 So that question was for you.

1:05:10 But last question of the day here, Gabe, what would you say to someone that said, it doesn't

1:05:13 matter what I teach my kids, they get to make their own decisions.

1:05:17 No, absolutely not.

1:05:20 You were wrong.

1:05:21 I would say that my four year old wants to be a dinosaur half the time.

1:05:24 And if I let him be a dinosaur and decided that's what he wanted to be, right, I'm going

1:05:28 to change his skin.

1:05:29 No, your responsibility is to raise your kid.

1:05:32 And yeah, you know, in the U.S. we say 18 is at the legal age, but it's different for

1:05:36 every kid, right?

1:05:37 Yes, you saw the responsibility even beyond, you know, I still go to my father for some

1:05:41 advice.

1:05:42 And I hope that my kids would come to me for some advice when they get older.

1:05:46 But no, you have a responsibility from the very beginning.

1:05:48 And while their brains are still developing, no, they can't decide what's what they're

1:05:51 going to have for breakfast or dinner.

1:05:53 I think my nine year old could probably survive for about a week.

1:05:56 And then that's it.

1:05:57 Right.

1:05:58 So no, they have they can't decide what their gender is or what they, you know, what right

1:06:02 and wrong is as a young age, absolutely not.

1:06:04 And it's up to men like us to stand in the breach and make sure that they know that and

1:06:08 to stand up for the kids whose parents won't tell them that.

1:06:11 But Gabe, we've talked about a lot of stuff here.

1:06:12 I appreciate you letting us go into some of your background and into your book.

1:06:15 But that is all for me.

1:06:16 Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?

1:06:19 No, sir.

1:06:20 I think we've covered it all.

1:06:21 Yeah.

1:06:22 Appreciate it.

1:06:23 Thanks for having me on here.

1:06:24 And I love listening to what you're doing, man.

1:06:25 All right.

1:06:26 Gabe Wander.

1:06:27 Thank you for coming on on Daunted Life.

1:06:28 A man's podcast.

1:06:29 Thanks.

1:06:30 There you go.

1:06:31 Guys.

1:06:32 I hope you enjoyed my interview with Gabe Wander.

1:06:33 But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life.

1:06:36 Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness and specifically we do that by providing

1:06:39 content that for just spiritual, mental and physical resilience.

1:06:42 So the two links I've got for you today, I got a link to the D'Angelo publications website

1:06:46 where you can buy, maintain eye contact while shaking hands.

1:06:49 And I've also got a link to Gabe's website so you can check out more stuff from him.

1:06:52 All right.

1:06:53 Thanks so much for listening to this show.

1:06:54 We do appreciate it.

1:06:55 Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five

1:06:57 store review.

1:06:58 If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an

1:07:01 email to info@undaunted.life, that's I-N-F-O at Undaunted.life.

1:07:06 You can also follow us on Instagram and TikTok and like us on Facebook and you can check out

1:07:09 our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this

1:07:12 coming your way.

1:07:13 Let's go to www.undaunted.life and we want to also thank the band August Burns Red for

1:07:17 allowing us to use our music for our content.

1:07:20 The music on this podcast is our song "Cutting the Ties," which is off their 10th anniversary

1:07:23 re-recording of their album Leveler.

1:07:25 The links are in the description.

1:07:27 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.

1:07:29 Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.

1:07:36 I'm seeking the Lion of Judah.

1:08:06 [music]