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0:30
[MUSIC]
0:42
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:52
Let's get into it.
0:53
All right, guys, we've got a special guest on the podcast today.
0:55
His name is Frank Turic, so Frank is one of the biggest and best Christian speakers
0:59
authors, radio and television host and apologist on planet Earth.
1:03
He often speaks at churches, schools and universities and has done public debates
1:07
with noted atheists like Christopher Hitchens and David Silverman.
1:10
And there are a bunch of other guys, like he's done a lot of these debates,
1:14
but he's also authored books like I don't have enough faith to be an atheist
1:17
and stealing from God.
1:18
Why atheists need God to make their case.
1:20
And he also has a new book that he co-wrote with his son, Zach,
1:23
called Hollywood Heroes, How Your Favorite Movies Reveal God.
1:26
And we talk about that a little bit in this episode.
1:28
He goes into all these different stories from the superhero movies and comics and Hollywood
1:32
and how that basically points to Christ.
1:33
He's also the founder and president of the Christian apologetics ministry crossexamine.org.
1:38
He's the host of, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist television show
1:41
in the host of cross-examine with Frank Turic radio show.
1:44
So this was a really, really fun interview.
1:46
Anytime that I set up an interview to go in a particular way and it doesn't go that way,
1:49
it's typically a good thing because I basically set it up where it's like,
1:52
okay, if they're just giving me road answers, I'll just work my way through here and it'll be fine.
1:56
But we kept going off on these different tangents.
1:58
We didn't get to really interject a lot of time with a lot of his books.
2:01
So that's why I have the books in the show notes guys.
2:02
You can go there through the website.
2:04
It's all there in the show notes.
2:05
I'll go over that obviously at the very end.
2:07
But we talk about manhood in the church.
2:09
We talk about how he used, he grew up Catholic and then he ended up,
2:12
you know, while he was in the military becoming an aviator,
2:14
how he became Protestant and what that looks like.
2:16
What his debate with Christopher Hitchens was like, how he prepares for these debates.
2:20
But also we spend a lot of time going into different arguments that atheists and agnostics use
2:25
and how you can be equipped to deal with those arguments.
2:28
Again, we equipment to push back darkness here.
2:29
So it's guys like Frank Turk that will help you with the arguments with the words to say,
2:32
but even better, the questions to ask these people to get to bedrock about their views.
2:37
I talked about his connection with Robbie Zacharias and then we got into a epic, epic.
2:41
What would you say to someone that said segment?
2:42
But guys, I'm not going to keep him from you any longer.
2:45
So without further ado, let's get into it.
2:47
Frank Turk, welcome to Indaunted Life of Man's podcast.
2:51
Thanks, Kyle. Great being with you.
2:52
Hey, we're going to cover a lot of ground and we are going to scrape the edges of that big
2:56
old brain ears in today's podcast. But before we get to that, every time I talk to somebody
3:00
on the podcast, that was a veteran. I like to kind of get a little bit of an idea as to why that
3:05
was because I grew up around a lot of military, but that wasn't the route that I went. I'm kind of,
3:09
you know, a little bit ashamed of that, but it's just the route that I took is the path God had for me.
3:13
But, you know, before we get into your current profession, which is awesome,
3:16
you used to be an aviator in the United States Navy.
3:18
And that's pretty cool. So what drew you to the military and specifically what drew you to being
3:23
an aviator? Well, the first time I took an airplane ride when I was 15, I said, I want to fly.
3:28
And so when I got out of high school, I was always told that the Navy had more planes than the Air
3:34
Force. And at the time, that was true. I don't know if it still is true. But anyway, so I
3:38
decided to go to Naval ROTC. And I went to University of Rochester because the head of the ROTC unit
3:45
there said, if you'd get good grades here, I can get you a scholarship. So I got good grades.
3:50
My first semester got a scholarship. And then I graduated there four years later and went into
3:57
the Navy. I was a navigator on a P3, which is a big ugly turboprop that went out in 100 submarines.
4:02
And did that from 1984 to 1992. So I got out of the Navy after eight years. And Navy, by the way,
4:10
stands for never again volunteer yourself. Never again volunteer yourself. Everybody should know
4:14
that by now. But it does make it very interesting for some of your presentations. There are some
4:19
three points. You use the story of Mikey Mansour diving on a grenade. Obviously, US Navy SEAL that
4:24
has had a tremendous impact on how we do warfare and how we just think of heroism. So we'll certainly
4:29
get into that. But I hate asking broad questions. But for those in our audience that don't know kind
4:33
of who you are and what you do in the broadest way possible. So my audience can get a sense of who
4:37
you are. How did you become a Protestant? Because my understanding is that you grew up Catholic.
4:41
If I'm incorrect on that, please let me know. But how did you become a Protestant? And then I
4:45
guess what drew you to the world of Christian apologetics? Because there's a lot of people that
4:49
just stop at Protestant and they don't go any further. So give us the story.
4:53
Right. Yeah. Good question. Well, I was brought up in New Jersey, which means by law, I had to be
4:58
Catholic. Of course. Catholic or Jewish, one of the two. And but when I went through Catholic high
5:03
school, I just really never knew who Jesus was. And when I was in the Navy and flight school,
5:07
I ran into the son of a Methodist minister. And I always believed in God. I knew there had to be
5:12
a first cause. Right. This stuff just doesn't happen. Right. There was a creation. There's got
5:16
to be a creator out there. I just didn't know who Jesus was. And I had so many questions for
5:20
this guy about Christianity that he finally said, look, you just need to get Josh McDowell books,
5:26
evidence that demands a verdict and more than a carpenter. These are books that give evidence
5:30
that Christianity is true. So I got those books. And when I got out of the Navy in 1992,
5:35
I wound up running into Norman Geisler, who at the time was sort of what we might call the Michael
5:40
Jordan of apologetics. Or maybe I'll update that Tom Brady of apologetics, right? The Steph Curry
5:46
of apologetics, the Tiger Woods. Well, now it's probably something else other than the Tiger. You
5:50
get the idea that the top guy in the field on evidence for the faith. And he was starting a
5:56
seminary here in Charlotte, North Carolina. So my wife and I and our three sons who were age five
6:01
and under at the time moved to Charlotte to attend this seminary back in 1993. And then
6:08
the Dr. Geisler and I began writing together. We wrote a couple of books. One's called
6:12
"Legislating Morality" and the other is called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist."
6:17
And then I started a ministry in 2006 called cross-examined.org. That's cross-examined with
6:22
the D on the end of it.org. And it's devoted to going mostly to college campuses and high
6:28
schools to present evidence that Christianity is true from our book, "I Don't Have Enough Faith
6:32
to Be an Atheist." So I came to faith through evidence. And that's why I was interested in it
6:37
once I really understood who Jesus was. Yeah. And we're going to spend a whole lot more time
6:41
on that sidebar. You can use Michael Jordan as the example forever because that is the goat
6:47
of all goats. That doesn't need to be updated. That doesn't need to be changed. MJ for life.
6:52
But one thing that I want to talk about, you and I were talking about this off air. I talked about
6:56
this with John Cooper who's a mutual friend of ours and Lisa Childers. I think that there's a different
7:02
argument and there's a different fight than what maybe we saw 10 or 15 years ago. The fight used to
7:09
be seemingly, and you know, you can give me your perspective, between atheists and Christians,
7:14
between this worldview versus that worldview. But now, Frank, I feel like the fight is between
7:20
Bible-believing Christians and woke Christians, right? And so you could call that left right. You
7:26
could call that liberal conservative or progressive conservative. I feel like that's the fight because
7:31
we can't fight a battle against atheism if you look at it that way. If we have a divided front,
7:36
if we have people that don't fundamentally believe the same things. Now, John and Elisa
7:41
tended to agree with me on that particular topic because I feel like that is the battle now.
7:46
Do you feel the same way? Are you running into that? Yeah, I think it's, I think the battle continues
7:51
on all fronts. I think atheism is growing in the sense that there are people, maybe it's not best
7:59
to be known as atheism, but about a third of the people out there, what we call nuns, N-O-N-E-S,
8:05
not N-U-N-S, obviously, people that have no religious affiliation at all. So yes, there are
8:13
there are adamant atheists out there that are claiming all religion is evil and all these these
8:18
claims they make and all religion is false. But then there are other people, as you brought up a point
8:23
out, who are might maybe traditionally have been what we call Christians, but now have drifted left
8:31
in their ideology and their theology. And look, I just, I just have a personal policy. If somebody
8:38
claims to be a Christian and disagrees with Jesus, I say, why are you claiming to be a Christian?
8:43
And you're disagreeing with Jesus. That doesn't appear to make any sense to me. By definition,
8:47
if you're a Christian, you agree with Jesus, right? That's the whole point. But to say, no,
8:52
you know, I don't agree with Jesus on this, that or the other, I don't agree with his apostles,
8:56
stop calling yourself Christians because you're not struggling with weight loss.
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prolonlife.com/now. I think that's where we've gotten to because I had Ryan Burge on the show,
9:31
we talked about the nuns of America and the rise of the nuns. And one of the three points,
9:35
he didn't really agree with me on this. And he's definitely more left of center in terms of how he
9:38
does thing. And that does kind of tinge the work that he's done is that these squishy Christians,
9:44
so like I was born in Oklahoma. So my dent of being born on this red clay, I'm a Protestant Christian,
9:50
right? Even though there was no requirements on me, there was no expectations on belief or faith
9:55
or any of those types of things. It was just because I was born here. So there's a lot of people
9:59
that are Christians because of something like that, or they're Christians because, you know,
10:03
they got swept up in the emotion at an event and maybe raise their hand or something like that. But
10:08
then their life after that didn't show any fruit. And now we're kind of getting into these arguments
10:12
about Calvinism and, you know, are we seeing the fruits? Because I got to tell you, the more I look
10:18
into Calvinism, the less I feel saved, depending upon the hour, just because it's like, Oh my gosh,
10:22
is my fruit sweet enough? Is it big enough? Is it good enough? But do you feel like that's part
10:27
of the reason that we're seeing is we have this rise of this, you know, emotional movement,
10:32
this raise your hand and say a prayer move. Does that aid in this? Yeah. Yeah, people think that
10:35
if they just get the magic of that one little moment, guys, I did not add that in there.
10:43
He's got his own sound effects. That is the first time I own sound effects, man. If I say
10:47
something good, you're going to get around. I'm going to get around applause. That's all I'm saying.
10:51
Christianity is not about a feeling Christianity is about trusting in what you have good evidence
11:00
to believe is true. So you trust in the fact that Jesus rose from the dead died for you.
11:05
And by trusting in him, you're not only forgiven, you're given his righteousness, but you're trusting
11:10
in an historical event and a person. You're trusting in the person that came to earth, added humanity
11:16
to his deity, lived a perfect life and then died in rose again to vindicate his claim to be God.
11:22
That's what you're doing. And Paul says in Romans chapter 10, he says, if you confess with your mouth
11:28
and believe in your heart that Jesus has been risen from the dead, you will be saved. That's
11:32
how you get your sins forgiven. You're trusting in an historical person who came to earth, died
11:38
in rose again. That's, that's, it's a fact you can check out. It's just not some mystical event.
11:44
All right. It's not that. It's, it's, it's historical. You can look into it.
11:50
So two things. Number one, I immediately need to get sound effects for my own podcast.
11:55
You do. I have what you're doing, man. This is a subpar podcast. If you don't have sound effects,
12:00
in fact, it could be scary. If you get sound effects, Frank, I just need to apologize for not being
12:06
prepared enough for the grandeur of what you're already given to me in our first 10 minutes here.
12:10
But I do want to get to this. So, and people are probably going to get tired of me bringing this
12:13
up and going this route, but talking about reform folks or Calvinist folks, and I don't know where
12:18
you kind of stand on all that. So you can feel free to not be destined to be Calvinist. I was
12:21
telling you. Okay. Well, my question is, is when I've interacted with people that are Calvinists
12:26
or reformed, I will say, Hey, in one sentence, can you tell me how someone can be saved? And I asked
12:31
the guy that question. And I'm going to have him on the show later. So I don't want to put him on
12:34
blast. But I asked him that question. And he launched it. If I'm lying, I'm dying. He launched
12:39
into a 10 minute explanation of systematic theology based on, you know, basically the
12:45
understandings of Christianity by a guy in the 1500s named John Calvin. And I was like,
12:50
dude, you're kind of playing into my point here to where a lot of people are very, very confused
12:55
about whether or not they can actually be saved. And some of that's good, because it's like,
12:59
if you're not actually Christian, if you don't have true faith, it's good to kind of get to bedrock.
13:03
But for me, I was saved if you can use the term now as a 10th grader, because a guest preacher
13:09
came and spoke on a Sunday night at my church. And he was talking about, you know, the rising
13:14
amount of volcanoes and earthquakes. And you better get in now because, well, you know, while
13:18
the getting's good. And I stood up and raised my hand. And I was like, okay, let's get after it.
13:23
But then you hear people like John MacArthur, who I love or Vodie Bockham, who I love saying how,
13:28
like, you can't get saved that way just by raising your hand and saying a prayer. And I'm like,
13:32
Oh, no, did I do it wrong? Is that is that making sense?
13:34
Well, I would ask them, how do you get saved then? Because according to Paul, if you confess with
13:40
your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus has risen from the dead, then you will be saved.
13:45
That's what Romans 10 9 says. So I'm trying to figure out what they would mean if they say,
13:51
well, that's not how you get saved. Well, how do you get saved then? What is what is the the method
13:56
by which you need to go through or the claim you need to go through? Let me make sure I quote the
14:01
verse properly. Here's what it says. If you declare with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your
14:05
heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved for with for with your heart. You
14:10
it's with your heart that you believe and are justified and with your mouth that you profess
14:14
your faith and are saved. So I don't I don't understand why it's so complicated. Now they may try and
14:18
say, and I'm not here to debate John MacArthur and Vodie Baucom. I just don't think Calvinism is true.
14:23
Okay. And I can I can give you two minutes on it if you want to. Hey, well, go ahead and launch
14:28
into the two minutes and then move on to other stuff as well. I'd like to hear your perspective.
14:32
Okay. Well, first of all, I think that there is election, but it's not election without our free
14:41
will. Let me put it this way. What people think is that if God knows what's going to happen,
14:46
he's causing it to happen. And we don't have free will. That's not the case. You can know
14:52
something's going to happen and not cause it. Like, for example, I'll just give you an illustration.
14:56
Suppose a young woman has a new baby. She brings the baby home from the hospital. She puts the baby
15:01
down for a nap or for or for the night. She knows at some point during the night that baby's going
15:07
to want to wake up and and get fed, right? She knows that. But because her knowing that, does that
15:13
mean she's causing the baby to wake up? No, knowledge does not imply causation. You can
15:19
know something's going to happen with certainty. And that doesn't mean you're causing it. You can
15:24
know tomorrow the sun's going to rise in the east. You can know that, but you're not causing it
15:29
to rise in the east. That's a fallacy in logic. And so people tend to think that if God knows all
15:35
things that we don't have free will, no, he knows what we're going to freely do, but he's not causing
15:40
us to do it. And so when the election part of it is this, when God elected to create this universe,
15:49
he elected the outcome. By definition, since he knows all things, he knows that whatever universe
15:56
he creates, he knows the outcome. He knows you're going to believe and say someone like Richard Dawkins,
16:01
probably the world's most famous atheist would not believe, but he's not causing you to believe,
16:05
and he's not causing Richard Dawkins to not believe. He is just allowing people to freely make their
16:11
choices. Now, you could ask the question, well, why did God create a universe where he knew people
16:15
would go to hell? Well, it's logically possible that God could create a universe where everyone
16:20
would believe, but it might not be actually achievable with free creatures, because by definition,
16:25
if people are free, God can't force them to believe one way or the other, because then they
16:28
wouldn't be free. So what he does is he creates a universe where the maximum number of people
16:34
freely come to know him, and he allows people to make their own choices. And God can still get his
16:40
will done even through people who don't obey him. Like, for example, Richard Dawkins, I just mentioned
16:45
writes a book called the God delusion. Christian picks it up, reads it and goes, oh, I hadn't heard
16:50
that argument before. I guess I got to get some more answers. By reading a book written by an
16:55
atheist, a Christian's getting closer to God, right? So God can get his will done even through
17:01
people who are not trusting in him. God can draw a straight line with a crooked stick,
17:06
and we're all crooked sticks, right? So yes, God predestines us, but yes, we're also free.
17:12
So we're chosen, but free. In fact, my co-author, Dr. Norman Geyser wrote a book.
17:16
Here it is for those watching the, for those watching the YouTube version of this chosen,
17:23
but free. Yes, we are chosen, but yes, we're also free. And to say that we don't have freedom,
17:29
that God does everything and we don't have any free choice. You know the problem with that, Kyle?
17:33
What's that? It makes God be author of evil. Yeah, that's the problem.
17:37
Well, and that's that's the pushback that we get in. I guess here's the thing so that we don't go
17:42
too often to do the weeds on theology. I really appreciate you giving me your perspective on that.
17:46
Part of it is these theological debates are fun that they're good to do kind of inside the
17:52
church. But I got to tell you, I listened to a debate between William Lane Craig and Dr. James White.
18:00
And I got to tell you there, and they were debating Molinism. And about halfway through Frank,
18:04
I didn't even know what the definition of Molinism was. And I'm like, these guys are just going back
18:10
and forth and, you know, making one intellectually snobby point after another and both of them being
18:14
rather smug. And I was like, who's gaining value out of these two brainiacs arguing about this?
18:20
And again, I'm not saying that these things aren't important. What I'm saying is like, when you're
18:23
sharing the gospel with somebody and you pull out this tome of systematic theology and try to beat
18:29
them over the head with it, it's going to maybe be a little bit too complicated. But I feel like
18:32
we're getting into some waters that aren't necessarily the point for today. One of the main things I
18:36
wanted to talk to you about is about manhood in the church, just in general. So at this ministry,
18:41
we equip men to push back darkness. Okay, one of the reasons that we do that is because their
18:46
pastors are not doing so. Their pastors don't have the men in mind when they're creating their
18:51
sermon content. The person who's singing the songs isn't concerned about the men in the crowd whenever
18:56
they're picking out the songs with particular lyrics or singing out a particular key. I don't
18:59
really know much about music, hopefully keys the right word. But it's a concern for me. And the
19:03
reason why we started what we're doing is because around the time I was learning to become a man,
19:07
I was learning to become a Christian. And I felt like the manly men were outside the church doing
19:12
man stuff. And all the godly men were inside the church doing godly stuff and that there was no
19:16
crossover. Now, we could argue whether or not that was actually true, but that was my paradigm.
19:21
And that's the paradigm of a lot of people. I've talked to hundreds of men that agree with that.
19:26
Hundreds of men who hear their pastor talk about lame, God, lame, God, grace, grace,
19:30
never talk about lion of Judah, never talk about truth. They don't want to touch Jesus going in
19:34
and doing premeditated violence on people on the temple. And I feel like a lot of men are being
19:39
pushed away and the church is basically communicating to these men. We're not doing this for you. This
19:43
is not for you. And the men are like, great, I'll go mess around in the garage. I'll hit the golf
19:48
course. You know, I'll hit the shooting range. I'll do something else because you don't want me here.
19:52
What is your read on modern Christianity, Christianity, and specifically how it, you know,
19:58
rejects or accepts manhood and masculinity? Well, I think you're right. The church has been made
20:03
for women. Basically, it is much more fallen love with Jesus type stuff and men are going,
20:09
fall in love with Jesus. What the heck does that even mean? It sounds weird. Yeah, yeah, it sounds
20:13
weird. It's why the church is 65 to maybe 70% women because it does not appeal to men. And I think
20:19
we've bought into the idea that Jesus is some kind of Barney figure, you know, he's just like,
20:24
can't we all get a long boys and girls? When this is the guy that came and said,
20:29
don't don't think I came to bring peace. I came to bring a sword. I came to divide the divide
20:35
people. You're going to have mother divided from daughter, father from son, right? This is what
20:40
my name is going to do. Now, that doesn't mean that God wants us to be divided. He's simply saying
20:47
that my ministry and the person who I am is going to create division. And I always tell people,
20:54
if you think Jesus was a sweet guy who's never said a bad word about anyone, you have not read
21:00
John chapter two, John chapter eight or Matthew chapter 23. For example, John chapter two,
21:06
what does Jesus do? You just referred to it. He makes a whip and he goes and he jacks people up
21:11
in the temple. What sweet and gentle Jesus did this? Yes. Right. And then in John chapter eight,
21:16
he's having an argument with the Pharisees and who were the Pharisees? The Pharisees were the
21:21
politicians of Jesus's day. They were on the Sanhedrin. Some of them were. And the Sanhedrin was the
21:28
Jewish ruling counsel to him to whom Rome delegated much of the day to day lawmaking authority to.
21:36
So these were the people that Jesus went after. They were the religious politicians. Are you
21:42
telling me Jesus got involved in politics? Yes. Absolutely. And he wasn't so nice doing it.
21:47
In fact, in John chapter eight, he's arguing with these religious politicians and right in the middle
21:53
of the congregation and right in the middle of the conversation with him, he says, "Your father is
21:58
the devil." Jesus, you can't say that. That's not very Christ-like. Excuse me, I am Christ. I mean,
22:04
come on. Can you imagine having an argument with somebody and you stop right in the middle and you
22:08
go, "Your father is the devil." Never try that with a sibling, by the way. Anyway, so Jesus is tough.
22:15
And then in Matthew 23, he's going after these same Pharisees, these same politicians. And what
22:21
does he say? "Woe do you scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites? You strain out a net and swallow
22:26
a camel. Oh, you look great on the outside. You're whitewashed tombs, but on the inside, you're full
22:30
of dead man's bones. You go a mile to make a convert. And then once you make them a convert,
22:36
you make them twice as much a son of hell as you are. How will you avoid being condemned to hell?"
22:43
And you go, "What? Sweet and gentle Jesus said this." He was not Mr. Rogers, right? He didn't go around
22:51
saying, "This sermon brought to you by the letter E." Jesus was tough. In fact, why did they kill him?
22:58
Two reasons. Number one, he claimed to be God, which was blasphemy to the Jews
23:04
and sedition to the Romans. If you want the two power figures to come after you,
23:09
tell them you're God because that's going to get you stoned by the Jews and executed by the Romans
23:17
because who was God? Well, the emperor was God. And the God figures of Rome. The gods of Rome were
23:23
supposed to be gods, not some guy walking around like Jesus. So he was killed because he claimed
23:30
to be God. And number two, he spoke truth to power, particularly to somebody like Caiaphas,
23:35
who knew that he would be out of a job of Jesus succeeded. In fact, Caiaphas, I think Caiaphas,
23:41
I think Caiaphas had good evidence that Jesus was the Messiah. He knew that Jesus had raised
23:46
Lazarus from the dead. And what does he say right after he raised his Lazarus from the dead?
23:50
What does Caiaphas say? He says, "It's better that one innocent man died than the whole nation
23:56
perish." In other words, Caiaphas said, "It's better for us to murder this guy than us to lose
24:02
our privileged position here at the temple." So Jesus was tough. Don't buy into this
24:08
wimpified sixties hippie version of Jesus. Jesus was a tough guy. That's why he was killed.
24:14
Yeah, he was a rough and tumble Middle Eastern Jew. He didn't look like a Danish guy. He didn't
24:19
look like me. He looked a whole lot closer to Osama bin Laden than he did to either one of us.
24:23
And the thing about it is, I think it's right to look at Jesus appropriately. And I think
24:28
that's one of the things that modern church has done a really, really bad job of. And I don't just
24:31
mean in the artwork or in the expression in the music, which I have a massive, massive issue with
24:34
the music. But it's like, as a man, you don't understand the fullness of Christ unless you
24:38
understand grace and truth. And in this culture, we think of things as 50/50, like, oh, he's 50%
24:43
grace and 50% truth. That makes 100% Jesus. Nope. He was 100% grace, 100% truth in order to be 100%
24:50
Jesus. He was just as much lion of Judah. That's why he's over my shoulder as he was lamb of God.
24:55
And so part, this is one of the things that I would say, and I want to get your opinion on this.
25:00
One of the ways that I think that pastors can change, and one of the ways that I think men like me
25:07
can help change the really christiandom in the West, is to go to their pastors and talk to them
25:13
about some of their concerns about the church not being man friendly enough and to tell their
25:17
pastors, guess what? If you start making this church man friendly, if you start equipping us
25:20
to push back darkness, if you start talking about, you know, cultural topics that people don't like
25:24
to touch like abortion or LGBTQ issues or Black Lives Matter or Marxism or name a thing, I've got your
25:30
back. I know some slings and arrows are going to come your way, but guess what? I've got my I got
25:34
your back. And guess what? There's a dozen dudes in the lobby that have meetings set up with you
25:38
after after mine. And they're all going to tell you the exact same thing. Pastor, we've got your
25:42
back. Let's do this. Like, let's actually physically push back darkness. Let's storm the gates of hell
25:48
as much as we possibly can. I think one of the reasons that pastors are afraid to do that, Kyle,
25:55
is because we bought into the wrong idea that the church is for unbelievers. And that's why
26:02
pastors think, oh, I can't speak on controversial issues because I might offend unbelievers and
26:08
then they won't become Christians. Well, the church was never designed to be for unbelievers.
26:13
I mean, we welcome unbelievers. Don't get me wrong. But we don't preach to the lowest common
26:18
denominator, which are unbelievers. We should be equipping Christians to become disciples.
26:23
And that means you preach the truth regardless of who's in the audience. That's why you're there.
26:29
You're not there to pamper the culture. You're there to transform the culture. And the problem
26:35
is is we have too many people out there that are being influenced more by the culture than we are
26:42
influencing the culture. That's the problem. Oh, they think they also think, oh, you know,
26:46
if I preach on these hard issues, we're going to lose people. You know what you are, right? You're
26:50
going to lose people, but you're going to gain a whole bunch more who are going to be fired up
26:55
and true disciples. You can look at the stats for that. You're going to initially lose some people,
27:00
but they're chaff anyway. They're not true Christians anyway. They don't want to know the truth.
27:05
They want to be cultural Christians. You want the people in there who want to be disciples who
27:10
are going to go to battle for truth and do it in a gracious way. Let's talk about that phrase you
27:15
use or that term, you use true disciples. Okay, let's talk about true disciples because that's one thing.
27:20
I attended one of the largest mega churches in America was the largest mega church in America
27:24
for over 10 years. That's life church here in Edmond or in Oklahoma City, Edmond. That's Craig
27:29
Rochelle. Yeah, they were like one of the first churches to do multi side and they invented
27:34
Churchill line and all that. They've done some great things. You version Bible app, all of this.
27:37
But again, they do the highly production, you know, easy Skittles Church. I come in, listen to your
27:44
concert, listen to your TED talk with a few Bible verses sprinkled on top. And then we're going to
27:48
make you raise your hand now and raise your hand now, except Jesus now. And then you raise your hand
27:53
and they count up the hands and then they put it in their annual report every year about how many
27:56
tens of thousands of people got safe. But one thing the church has done poorly enough talked
28:00
about this publicly. There's no such thing as discipleship at that church. They don't really
28:04
worry about making true disciples. And again, I attended for over 12 years. I did leadership.
28:07
I did volunteerism. I ran some of the men stuff that they were doing there. They basically pawned
28:11
off the discipleship to what they call life groups, which are basically, you know, these home groups
28:16
and things like that. And there's been some issues with the home groups. That's not what we're here
28:19
to talk about today. But there's no discipleship from from any of the folks that are in leadership.
28:24
You might get a book from a pastor. You might say, you know, Hey, you might get a meeting here or
28:28
there. But I find that to be a major, major issue with these enormous churches is it's impossible to
28:34
be known. If something were to happen to you or happen to your family, the church has the resources
28:38
to come around you, but they don't have the knowledge to really even come around you. And again,
28:42
I'm painting with such a broad brush here and a lot of life churches listen to this and I appreciate
28:46
you guys. But gosh, it concerns me that people are quote unquote getting saved that actually aren't
28:51
that, you know, they're checking a box on a welcome card, but they're not actually growing in the
28:55
faith at all. Do you see that? Because I know you get invited to speak at some of these enormous
28:59
churches. So you don't want to, you know, [inaudible] in the pool that you're, you know, using to make
29:02
your business. But it's very concerning to me, Frank. Yeah, it is concerning. It's a hard problem.
29:07
It's not an easy problem. Because once you get, you know, more than say two or three hundred,
29:12
you can't know everybody and you can't really be involved in their lives as a pastor. And then
29:17
you've got to start delegating to other people kind of like Moses did in Exodus. You know, God told
29:21
him to get some judges around him, get some elders around him to teach the people. But remember,
29:26
the goal of the church is to equip the saints to do ministry. And in order to equip the saints
29:32
to do ministry, you have to make those saints disciples, right? Remember Jesus said, go
29:37
therefore make disciples of all nations. He didn't say make believers. And so it is a hard problem.
29:43
I don't, I don't have an answer. I don't have a way. Well, here's how you do it. You know,
29:47
if you're going to use life groups, you better make sure those life group leaders are trained.
29:52
And they are the people that can disciple the people in a small group environment.
29:57
But unfortunately, even that's hard to do. How do you train people? How do you get people
30:02
to know what the pastor knows without them going to seminary and without them being
30:06
folks that have time to study all this? It's a really hard problem.
30:11
And in fact, early churches, as you know, were house churches for a reason. Well, first of all,
30:16
they'd be persecuted if they came out in public. But secondly, in a house church,
30:22
you can get to know everybody and you can live life and really disciple one another. It is
30:27
admittedly hard to do. And I don't know much about Craig. I know they have done some good
30:31
things. As you mentioned, I haven't watched many of his sermons and he's obviously a good speaker.
30:35
But if it doesn't go deeper than any Sunday morning, they're not really making disciples.
30:40
And it is a hard problem. Well, it really is. And again, I was under his leadership and I
30:44
guess two words you could say for, for, I think it was 12 years I attended that church. And again,
30:48
like I'm being critical about someone that's not here to defend themselves. So I know what's
30:51
inherently wrong with that. But you know, it just kind of is what it is. Part of the issue is,
30:55
he's been talked about before, like, why don't you go deeper? Why don't you exegete the scriptures?
30:59
Why don't you like really go a whole lot farther? Why don't why does it seem like you build this
31:03
four week series and then back into the scripture, you know, you know, to make your other life
31:08
points that you're wanting to make? And he said this kind of piffy comment that gets a lot of
31:11
claps from the seals on the crowd, which is basically, as soon as y'all get the easy stuff,
31:15
I'll get into the deep stuff, which is a way of saying I'm never going to get into the deep stuff,
31:20
right? That's kind of the admission there. But I guess the problem is, is it's the church growth
31:24
model, which is modeled off of being a startup. So when you're a startup, everything you do is
31:30
about growth, right? And then you're trying to package it to sell it and all that kind of stuff.
31:33
But everything is about growth. And anything that stunts growth is something that you will
31:37
avoid and something that you will not deal with. And so if you're running this church model where
31:41
it's like, okay, we're going to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow. And then we're going to,
31:44
you know, plant another another campus. Otherwise known as, you know, planting another franchise,
31:48
it's just another Arby Arby's or just another Burger King or something like that. You're just
31:52
basically creating this model where everything has this cult of personality under one person,
31:57
could be Craig could be, you know, name another multi site church. And then it just splinters off
32:01
from there. If something happens to that main guy, we don't know what happens to the church.
32:05
I was talking to church leadership. And if Craig got, you know, hit by a bus or attacked by,
32:09
you know, pack of seagulls and got carried off and died, they didn't have a plan for what would
32:13
happen to all of these churches. They wouldn't be able to operate autonomously. And so I kind of
32:18
want to get off that because, you know, it's, it's just kind of one of my own bugaboos. It is a concern
32:22
that I have for the future. And I do want to kind of move right now, Frank, into some other areas.
32:26
And we're just not going to be able to get really into all your books. I'm going to put
32:29
those in the show notes guys, you know, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist and, you know,
32:33
a stealing from God in your new book Hollywood heroes. These books are all fantastic. We're
32:37
not going to give enough attention to those today. You guys have to go and buy them. They're in
32:41
the show notes. Don't be a loser. Buy them, read them, listen to them, whatever you got to do.
32:44
I do want to get into your debate style though, because that is something that I feel like is
32:48
very important as a Christian apologist. They're a Christian apologist that are great at retrieving
32:53
facts when they're speaking in front of a, you know, a nice crowd of nice polite people at a church.
32:58
And then there's those that are dogs that they're going to get out there in a debate with someone
33:01
that hates them and a crowd that's hostile and they get after it. And you yourself did two public
33:06
debates with one of the, you know, four so-called horsemen of new atheism, Christopher Hitchens.
33:12
And so I guess my question for you is, is you're obviously a bombastic guy. You're a smart guy.
33:17
You're a funny guy. But how do you go about preparing for a debate like that with, with somebody that
33:22
Christopher Hitchens, who I don't seem to be, I don't see him as a very impressive person.
33:26
I feel like his accent is why most people thought he was super, duper smart, like just to be honest
33:30
personally. But you know, how do you think those debates went with Christopher Hitchens? You know,
33:35
what was kind of the critical reception and how do you prepare for one of those?
33:38
Yeah. Well, the way you prepare for them is you read what the guy wrote and he had a book called
33:42
"God is not great. How religion poisons everything." So I read his book and that was my first debate
33:48
ever other than the several debates I've had with my wife and I never win any of those. But, you know,
33:54
the first public debate was with Christopher Hitchens. You might as well go big or stay home,
33:57
right? So that was in Richmond back in 2008. Then I debated him again in 2009. I mean,
34:04
I think they went fine. You know, I'll let others decide how they went. You can go to our YouTube
34:12
channel, look for the cross-examined YouTube channel. You can see both those debates. I will
34:18
say this and I think most people would agree with this as you just pointed out, Hitchens is a great,
34:23
is great at rhetoric because he had the British accent, right? He sounded more brilliant than he
34:27
was with the British accent. And he was a writer. He was a journalist. So he's really good at rhetoric.
34:31
So if you listen to a debate with Hitchens or watch a debate with Hitchens, you're going to
34:34
go, I like this guy and I like them. I mean, I like them personally. But if you read a debate
34:39
with Hitchens, if you read the transcript, you're going to go, what the heck is this guy talking
34:44
about? Exactly. It has nothing to do with the topic. In fact, the first debate we had was,
34:47
does God exist? And his opening statement had to do with what a bad person Mother Teresa was.
34:53
And you're going, what does this have to do with what Mother Teresa could have been the best or
34:58
worst person in history? But what does this have to do with whether or not God exists?
35:02
Right. I mean, he was just getting up there and basically saying he didn't like what Christians
35:08
had done in history, to which I responded, you know, Christopher, you're right. A lot of Christians
35:12
have done a lot of evil in history. But if there is no God, none of that was evil. Because if there's
35:18
no standard of good, there's no standard of evil. And if there's no standard of evil,
35:21
then what are you complaining about? You know, you have to steal from God in order to argue against
35:26
Him. You have to steal a standard of good, which is God's nature, to say that Christians have done
35:30
evil. So if Christians have done evil, God exists. If God doesn't exist, they haven't done evil,
35:36
because there's no such thing as good or evil. And so you can watch the debates for yourself,
35:41
but you got to read a lot. You got to be ready. You got to anticipate what he's going to say.
35:46
That's how I get ready for debates. And I've debated about, I've had about 10 public debates,
35:49
a couple with Michael Schurmer. He's another famous skeptic or atheist, and probably several
35:56
others with maybe people you haven't heard of. Well, guys, in the show notes, we'll have a link
36:00
to the cross examine YouTube page so you guys can go and check those out. But it kind of reminds
36:05
me when I listen to some of those debates, Frank, it kind of reminds me of thank you for smoking.
36:09
When the lead character in that movie was talking to his son, and this guy is like a
36:12
lobbyist for big tobacco, right? And you know, he's talking about a debate and he's trying to
36:16
explain to his son, you know, hey, dad, you didn't answer the question that that lady journalists
36:20
asked you, I believe was the scene. And he goes, well, I'm answering the question that I want to answer.
36:25
That's right. Not their question. And so when you hear these people like that scene smart,
36:28
like a hitchens or a Dawkins or, you know, name another famous atheist, they're not actually answering
36:34
the question and they're not going to bedrock. But there was an interesting thing that happened
36:38
recently on Justin Briarley show over in the UK, it was the big conversation. And it was between
36:42
Richard Dawkins and Francis Collins, exactly. And there was an interesting admission there
36:49
to where Dawkins basically admitted that the fine tuning of the universe is perhaps the only
36:56
road to him to believe in some sort of a creator, maybe that would lead into deism or to something
37:02
like that said the same thing that was the best argument that theist had. Yeah, well,
37:05
let's talk about that. Because many atheists that are intellectually consistent and intellectually
37:09
honest, which seemingly there's not many of those, they will actually admit that the fine tuning of
37:14
our universe is probably the best argument for creator God. Is that is that the best argument
37:19
that we can give to atheists as to why belief in God is a reasonable thing?
37:24
Well, there's three that I give. One is the argument from the beginning of the universe,
37:27
known as the cosmological argument. The second is the argument from design known as the teleological
37:32
argument. And that that deals with the fine tuning of the universe and also the design we
37:36
find in living things, the genetic code, for example. And the third is the moral argument,
37:41
because if there's no God, nothing's ultimately right or wrong, everything's just a matter of
37:45
opinion. But we all know say the Nazis were wrong. Well, if the Nazis are wrong, God must
37:50
exist. Why? Because there has to be a standard beyond us and the Nazis, that's God's nature that
37:55
says this is the standard of righteousness and anyone that deviates from that would be wrong or
38:00
would be evil. So those three arguments, the cosmological, teleological and moral arguments
38:05
show that God exists. And I always start with the cosmological. Why? Because if the universe had a
38:11
beginning, if space matter and time had a beginning, which even atheists are admitting,
38:16
then whatever created space matter and time can't be made of space matter and time. In other words,
38:21
the cause must be spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful to create the universe out of nothing,
38:27
personal in order to choose to create and also intelligent, to have a mind to create. So from
38:32
one argument, Kyle, you get six attributes for what appears to be God, a spaceless, timeless,
38:38
immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent cause. Now, at this point, you don't know that you don't
38:43
know if this is Jesus or Allah or some other theistic God, right? Or deistic God as Richard Dawkins
38:49
would say, God who just creates the universe and then leaves it. But we've got six arguments
38:53
from one argument. The argument you're talking about is the fine tuning of the universe.
38:57
And let me just give you two quick points on this. Stephen Hawking, who was probably the most
39:03
famous atheist, uh, physicist until he died about five years ago, put it this way with regard to the
39:08
expansion of the universe. He said, if the expansion of the universe was different by one part in a
39:17
thousand million million, a second after the Big Bang, the universe would have collapsed back
39:22
on itself or never developed galaxies. In other words, if the expansion rate was that infinitesimally
39:27
different from the very beginning, none of us would be here. Now, you can't make any evolutionary
39:32
argument or explanation for this. You can't say, well, the expansion rate evolved to this
39:36
point by chance after a certain period of time. Why? Because this is the initial expansion rate.
39:41
This happened at the very beginning of the universe. It was just where it needed to be.
39:45
Seems to me, the same being that created space matter and time is the same being that fine-tuned
39:51
the expansion rate to be precisely what it needed to be at the very beginning. Anything different,
39:56
none of us would be here. One other point that I find very intriguing, and there's about a dozen
40:01
of these aspects about our universe that if you change any one of them, none of us would be here.
40:08
There'd be no universe. If the strong nuclear force was different by one part in 10 to the 40th
40:17
power compared to the gravitational force, if the gravitational force was different
40:22
from the strong nuclear force, by that one in 10 to the 40th power, we wouldn't be here.
40:26
Now, what's one in 10 to the 40th power? That's one part in one with 40 zeros following it. You
40:35
say, well, Frank, I can't get my head around that number. Let me just give you a brief illustration
40:38
to show you the precision of this number. Take the entire North American continent and pile
40:46
dimes on it all the way to the moon. That's over 200,000 miles, right? And do that on a
40:52
billion other North American continents, dimes all the way to the moon. Mark one dime in all those
40:59
piles, red, mix it all in to all those piles, then blindfold your friend, throw them in that
41:05
one huge pile and tell them to pick one dime at random. The chance that he would pick the one
41:12
red dime is one chance in 10 to the 40th power. What are the odds you think he's going to pick
41:17
that? He's not, right? Forget about it. Never going to happen because there are too many dimes
41:25
that aren't marked. There's only one that is. That's one in 10 to the 40th precision,
41:30
which means that if the ratio between the gravitational force and the strong force
41:36
were different by that infinitesimal amount, we wouldn't be here. So there's only two explanations
41:42
for why that value is where it is. It was designed to be there or it wasn't. I always ask people,
41:47
what's more reasonable? Right. And if it wasn't part, you're also positing that something came
41:53
from nothing, that all things came from nothing. And you do a great job in, you know, in all your
41:58
presentations and in your books of really going at that. And that's one thing I guess I like about
42:02
your approach is that you try to get people to bedrock. And that's what I feel like a lot of debates,
42:07
Christians or conservatives or whoever, they're too nice with the other people. And they don't
42:11
hold their feet to the fire. So that's why I like your explanation. Eric Metax has just wrote a book
42:15
called is atheism dead, like a third of the book deals with some of those numbers in terms of
42:19
fine tuning of the universe, because there is not a logical explanation. And again, these people
42:24
will say that we're just, you know, this random coalition of atoms that kind of came together.
42:28
So why would we trust our brain impulses to begin with? And yet they're making these appeals
42:32
to logic and other types of argumentation? I did want to have you engage a little bit with this
42:37
because again, here at undaunted life in order to equipment to push back darkness, we need to make
42:41
sure that we have some of our apologetics knowledge ready to go whenever we're talking with people,
42:46
whether it's at the water cooler or in a debate of ourselves. And so there's a lot of very popular
42:50
arguments I wrote down like 10 of them, but we'll just go through it two or three or so. But I guess
42:54
the big one and you've alluded to it a little bit, but I want to be more explicit is the problem of
42:58
evil. You know, why do bad things happen to good people? So just just kind of give us the 30,000 foot
43:03
flyover. Why do you know how you answer that as a Christian apologist? Well, it doesn't disprove
43:08
God. It actually shows God does exist. You say how so? Because evil presupposes good and good
43:14
presupposes God. You see, evil doesn't exist on its own. Evil exists only as a privation or a lack
43:20
in a good thing. For example, evil is like cancer. If you take all the cancer out of a good body,
43:26
you got a better body, right? What happens if you take all the body out of the cancer?
43:30
You got nothing, right? It doesn't exist on its own. Evil is like rust in a car. If you take all
43:36
the rust out of a car, you got a better car. What happens if you take all the car out of the rust?
43:39
No car. You got a pinto, right? Yeah, it doesn't exist. Okay. So evil only exists as a lack in a good
43:47
thing. So if evil exists, then good exists. But for good to exist, God has to exist. Otherwise,
43:54
it's just your opinion, because the standard of good is God's nature. So evil doesn't disprove
43:59
God. It may prove there's a devil out there, but it can't disprove God because there'd be no such
44:04
thing as evil unless there was good and there'd be no such thing as good unless God existed.
44:08
Now, we cover this in the book, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist stealing from God.
44:12
And a fun way of looking at this problem is to get the book Hollywood Heroes because we talk about
44:17
this in the context of movies. Okay. In fact, one of the, one of the movies Batman versus Superman,
44:24
which a lot of people didn't like. They're like, why is Batman fighting Superman? Well,
44:27
the reason Batman is fighting Superman is because Lex Luthor thinks that Superman is
44:33
the God of his world and he's a bad God. Why? Because Superman didn't stop Lex Luthor's father
44:38
from abusing him as a kid, right? So he's saying, you're a bad God. Well, here's the problem.
44:43
Notice Lex Luthor is mad at that at Superman at God for not stopping Lex Luthor's father from
44:51
abusing Lex Luthor. But you know what Lex Luthor isn't mad about? He's not mad that Superman hasn't
44:56
stopped Lex Luthor from doing evil to other people. Why is that? Why are we always mad at God for
45:03
him not stopping evil that other people are doing? But we never say, God, why don't you stop me from
45:09
doing evil? Why don't you stop me? Okay, we never say that. Where we say, God, why don't you stop him?
45:14
Why don't you stop her? I always ask people, look, if God were to stop evil at midnight tonight,
45:19
would you still be alive at 1201? I wouldn't be, right? Nobody's got a lie evil because he allows
45:24
free will. Why does he allow free will? So we can love without free will, you can't love. The problem
45:29
is with free will, we can also do evil. But what does God do? He redeems evil. What did God ultimately
45:35
do about evil? He took evil upon himself and the person of Christ. And one day he's going to
45:40
quarantine all evil. He's not going to take away free will. He's just going to take all the people
45:45
who want to continue to do evil and put them in a place called hell so they can't interfere
45:49
with the people that want to be with Christ and their loved ones in a place called heaven.
45:55
So evil will ultimately be quarantined. And those that have done evil, which is all of us,
46:02
won't have their sins punished because if we accept what Christ has done, God has taken or
46:09
put the punishment that is due us on him. That's how he can remain just and also justify sinners.
46:16
Absolutely. He goes back to what C.S. Lewis said in mere Christianity, like a world full of automatons
46:20
would not be a world worth creating. There's no love in a world like that. And so, and guys,
46:23
yes, you've got to go out and get I don't have enough faith to be an atheist to get stealing from
46:27
God. And in the new book, just another little commercial for Hollywood heroes, how your favorite
46:31
movies reveal God. If you have a movie, a superhero movie that you like, whether it's Batman versus
46:36
Superman, you know, whether it's, you know, the Spiderman stuff or the Harry Potter's or, you know,
46:40
any of the other, you know, chapters, Iron Man, yeah, Iron Man, any of the other chapters of that
46:44
book, they're all stealing from the story of Jesus, from the story of God. There's so many
46:50
through points and you do a great job in that book, you and your son, you co-wrote that with you,
46:54
one of your sons. And it's a great way for you to do that. So guys, it's an accessible book for
46:58
you as an adult male, it's an accessible book for your teenagers. You can sit down and watch these
47:02
movies, read the chapter together, and then go into some of the deeper level like, Oh, I didn't
47:06
realize that that was part of the theme here. But I think that gets into Frank, one of the other,
47:10
I guess dilemmas that you'll run into when you're arguing with atheists and agnostics when you're
47:15
arguing from the Bible, people will just say that, you know, that the Bible, what's described in the
47:20
Christian Bible, it's just another myth. It's just another mythical story that that was borrowed from
47:25
other mythical stories that even came before the Old Testament and before those types of things.
47:30
And the thing about that, Frank, is for a lot of Christians, that stops them dead in their
47:34
tracks. They're like, yeah, wait a minute, what? There's Egyptian stories that are just like the
47:38
Jesus story. There are other stories, like, how do you deal with an argument like that?
47:43
Well, first of all, there are no stories just like Jesus that came before Jesus. There are,
47:48
in Egypt, there was a story about Osiris, but Osiris wasn't resurrected into this world.
47:56
Osiris became some sort of figure in the netherworld. It wasn't a resurrection story.
48:02
The stories about dying and rising gods predominantly came after Christianity. And one of the things
48:08
that J.R.R. Tolkien, who wrote The Lord of the Rings series, convinced C.S. Lewis, who was an
48:14
atheist at the time, is Tolkien said to Lewis, Jack, that's what they call C.S. Lewis, Jack, Jack,
48:21
you're enthralled with these stories, these myths about dying and rising gods. These are
48:28
stories that came after Christianity. But you're not enthralled about reading a dying and rising
48:35
god in the pages of the New Testament. Why is that? Why are you enthralled with these myths
48:40
when the true myth, the thing that really happened, the story that really happened, Jesus
48:47
rising from the dead, you're not enthralled with it all. But, you know, Jack, that really happened.
48:51
And Lewis checked into it and realized, wow, there's historical evidence for this. It did really
48:56
happen. And then he became a Christian and became the top apologist of the 20th century.
49:01
And so Tolkien said, the true myth is Christianity. It really happened. All these other myths made
49:07
point to Christianity, but the true myth really happened. That's why so many of these movies we
49:12
watch, whether it's Captain America, Iron Man, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, Batman,
49:18
Wonder Woman, Star Wars, these movies are pointing, at least are partially copied from Christianity.
49:26
And the heroes in these movies point to the ultimate hero, Jesus of Nazareth. In fact,
49:30
if you were to ask, what is the one characteristic that so many of the heroes express in these movies
49:37
that is consistent with Jesus, they all sacrifice. Absolutely. They all sacrifice themselves for the
49:42
greater good. And I think that's one of the great things I heard you talk about in another interview,
49:48
which is like, you know, spoiler alert for anybody that hasn't seen in-game. And I'm not a big,
49:52
you know, Marvel movie person, but you know, Iron Man gives up his life in order to so that the
49:57
world could continue. So he gave up his life so that life could continue. And for him, this is a
50:01
very selfish, kind of playboy billionaire type guy in a real life, you know, I guess a fake version
50:06
of Elon Musk or something like that. And then he ends up getting to a place where he gives himself
50:10
up. So even in that story, it's an incredibly imperfect person that gives himself up and sacrifice,
50:16
which is very different than Jesus, who was a perfect person. But again, as I think you've pointed
50:20
this out, or maybe it was your son, it's just like how lame would that story have been if Iron Man
50:25
had the capability, right, of ending this of, you know, he basically chose, you know, I could give up
50:32
my life to save humanity. But man, I really, really like my life. My wife is smoking hot. I've got
50:36
all these sports cars and all these great helicopters. I can't really do that. That wouldn't have made
50:40
sense to us as an audience would not have bought that. And you know, the movie wouldn't have done
50:44
as well, because it wouldn't have been as enthralling of an ending. It wouldn't have, it would have been
50:48
like, Oh, all this great stuff took her Shindo into a nonsense pile. And so all that does kind of go to
50:53
something that I know you've talked about. And you know, our buddy Jay Warner Wallace has talked
50:57
about in his book, Person of Interest and other things like that, is being able to actually trust
51:02
the Bible. Because whenever you hear someone so like, you know, the biggest podcast host on the
51:06
planet, Joe Rogan, he has said multiple times on his show, man, you can't even like trust the
51:10
Bible. It's been translated so many different times. We have none of the original manuscripts
51:14
and all those different things. He gives way to an incredible level of ignorance on the issue.
51:18
But he's sitting across from somebody that also agrees with him. And there's tens of millions of
51:23
people that listen to his podcast that just take that whole cloth. Like, I guess the Bible can't be
51:27
true because Joe Rogan said so because of all that. And he's not doing it maliciously. He's doing
51:31
that because he's ignorant, because he's uninformed. But how do you deal with that when people talk
51:35
about, Hey, it's been translated so many times. We don't have the original manuscripts. How could
51:39
we know this hasn't just been changed by the Council of Nicaea or something like that?
51:42
Well, the two questions, there's two questions there. How do we know what the original said?
51:46
And then secondly, how do we know the originals telling the truth? All right.
51:50
Now, to the first question, how do we know what the original said? Everybody agrees,
51:54
we know what the original said. Even skeptics like Bart Erman who teaches at UNC Chapel Hill,
51:59
who wrote the book, Miss quoting Jesus, even he admits that by comparing all the manuscript
52:05
evidence that we have, which are nearly 6,000 handwritten Greek manuscripts. And there's like
52:10
another 14,000 from other languages. We know what the original said because we can cross check all
52:16
of those manuscripts and reconstruct the original with more than 99.5% accuracy. And the 0.5% we're
52:23
not exactly sure of has no effect on any theology, right? So we know what the original said. So
52:29
question one, how do we know what the original said? We know what the original said. The more
52:34
interesting question is, did the original tell the truth? That's really, you know, did Jesus really
52:41
rise from the dead? So when Rogan or somebody says, well, the Bible's been translated so many
52:45
times, first of all, translations have nothing to do with it. Okay, translations are going from
52:49
the original Greek or Hebrew into English. You can go back to the original Greek for the new
52:54
Testament and the Hebrew and a little bit of Aramaic for the Old Testament. And you can look
52:59
at those manuscripts and figure out what the original said. So translations have zipped zero
53:03
nada to do anything with whether or not we know what the original said. Okay, translations are just
53:07
at translations into different languages. Okay, but the question, how do we know that the new
53:12
Testament writers told the truth? We go through a lot of evidence in the books that they did. Let
53:16
me just give you a couple of reasons to think they did. And there's about 10 of them in the book.
53:20
One is they put embarrassing stories throughout the text. They never would have invented. I always
53:27
ask audiences. How many people here have ever lied to make yourself look good? And everybody
53:35
raises their hands. And those that don't raise their hands, I say, if you don't have your hand up
53:40
right now, you're lying to make yourself look good. Because we know you've done that, right? You will
53:44
lie to make yourself look good, but you will never lie to embarrass yourself. You will never lie to
53:50
make yourself look bad unless you're a pool shark or something. You know, you get the idea, right?
53:54
You're trying to set somebody up. Most of the time, you will never lie to embarrass yourself.
53:59
That's why historians know that when they're reading something that's embarrassing to the
54:04
author or authors, it's probably true. It probably really happened. And the New Testament writers
54:10
have filled the New Testament with embarrassing details they never would have made up. For example,
54:14
they would never depict themselves as dimwitted. They do that routinely. They would never have run
54:19
away at the crucifixion, right? And have the women be the first witnesses. What man is going to make
54:25
up that he ran away for fear of the Jews, why the women were the brave ones who discovered the
54:30
empty tomb? No man would make that up, right? You would never have the women be the first witnesses
54:36
in that culture because their testimony was not considered on par with that of a man. These are
54:41
not made up. You would never have their leader, Peter denied Christ three times, right? They never
54:47
would have invented this. They never would have called Jesus a drunkard. They never would have
54:52
said Jesus was called demon possessed. They never would have had his feet wiped with the hair of
54:56
a prostitute, which easy could have been seen as a sexual advance. And oh, by the way, they wouldn't
55:00
have two prostitutes in the Messiah's bloodline, Rahab and Tamar. Who would have made this up?
55:06
This is not a made up story. It's too embarrassing, right? So they're telling the truth about those
55:13
things. The second reason I know they're telling the truth is they, many of them went and died for
55:18
it. Who would have died for saying that Jesus had risen from the dead when they had no expectation
55:25
a man would claim to be God that was considered blasphemy to the Jews. And they wouldn't say
55:32
a man rose from the dead. They thought there would be a resurrection at the end of time,
55:35
according to Daniel 12, there would be a resurrection at the end of time, but not in the middle of time.
55:40
So yet here are these Jewish believers in Yahweh who have suddenly changed their worldview
55:44
completely to say a man claimed to be God and rose from the dead and they're willing to die for
55:49
this. Now, who would have done this on a myth? Nobody would have done this on a myth, right?
55:56
Now, you might say, well, Frank, are you telling me that, uh, that martyred improves Christianity?
56:00
If that's the case, don't you have to say that martyred improves Islam? No. Why? There's a big
56:05
difference between the Muslim martyrs of today and the New Testament martyrs of New Testament
56:10
times. The Muslim martyrs of today don't have evidence that Islam is true. They haven't witnessed
56:15
anything. They just taken on faith that Islam is true, but the New Testament writers who were all
56:21
Jewish with the exception of Luke, they're all Jews. They saw Jesus. They touched Jesus. They
56:27
ate with Jesus. They verified he had risen from the dead. You see, many people will die for a lie.
56:32
They think is the truth. Nobody will die for a lie. They know is a lie. And the New Testament
56:37
writers were in a position to know whether it was a lie or not. And they went to their deaths anyway.
56:41
So you can't get better evidence than that unless you were there yourself. Frank, I think that's
56:45
one of the most compelling things that I don't see a good secular answer to, which is why do we not
56:50
have any reports of these people were counting what they claimed as they never did, right?
56:55
And again, like there, there has to be some sort of secular historian that just hated Christians.
57:01
And you know, but was, but was an honest person somehow and said, yeah, there was this one person
57:06
that was a disciple for a little bit. And then whenever it became came time for the gallows or
57:10
for the cross, they decided, no, no, no, no, all this was fake. We don't see that anywhere that is
57:13
such, such compelling evidence. And to be honest with you, Frank, the world is smaller than we've
57:17
ever recognized like we're, we're typically about one degree of separation from everybody.
57:21
We got to get you on the Joe Rogan experience somehow because I'm like losing my mind. I'm like
57:25
pulling my hair out because it's like he goes and says these things have cocked and goes unchecked
57:31
on a lot of these things. And that doesn't mean he's all sudden going to become, you know,
57:34
the next Billy Graham and have this major conversion, but he might, but just I want somebody on that
57:39
show that could actually give that other side. And this kind of does dovetail into what I wanted
57:42
to talk about because for years on my show and everywhere that would listen to me, I would say,
57:47
I wanted that person to be Ravi Zacharias. If we could just give Ravi Zacharias on the Joe Rogan
57:52
experience and have him engage with him, you know, Ravi went on, you know, Ben Shapiro show and
57:57
Ben Shapiro's an Orthodox Jew. And oh, that's such a big deal and all those different things.
58:00
And then obviously everything that we know now about what Ravi was doing while he was still alive
58:05
has come out. And that would have been a disaster area if I had gotten my way. And you obviously had
58:10
an affiliation with Ravi Zacharias. You work directly with him in certain cases. But he's just one
58:15
of a myriad of very prominent pastors that have fallen to some form of sexual sin. So you've got
58:21
Carl Linson, Brian Houston of Hillsong, you got Bill Hybels, you got Ravi, and you just kind of
58:26
fill in the blanks. So talk to me a little bit about your affiliation with Ravi. And you know,
58:30
after after what you learned about him, you know, kind of what that did, how that affected you,
58:34
did it affect your ministry in any way, but then just, you know, more broadly, what about these
58:39
prominent pastors that all these people put their faith in, and then they fall in such,
58:44
you know, direct sexual ways and why that constantly keeps happening.
58:48
I just ask him one question. If somebody plays Beethoven poorly, who do you blame?
58:52
Not Beethoven. Yeah, you don't blame Beethoven. You blame the player. So if somebody plays Christ
58:59
poorly, you don't blame Jesus. Look, you blame the person playing Jesus and we're all fallen.
59:06
We all have feet of clay. We are all at risk for sin. So when you see someone fall,
59:13
don't think that this means Christianity's fault. It doesn't. It's just actually it's
59:19
evidence that Christianity is true. Why? Because if we weren't fallen, we wouldn't even need a
59:22
Savior. Why do we need Jesus? We wouldn't even know what fallen this is. Yeah, that's right.
59:27
That's right. So there are, yes, there are hypocrites. In fact, when I debated Christopher
59:31
Hitchens and, you know, I was saying, you know, Christopher, a lot of what you have in your book
59:35
is true that religious people have done evil things. I agree with that, but you're sort of
59:42
proving our worldview. Why? Because if we hadn't done evil things, we wouldn't need a Savior. We
59:47
wouldn't need Jesus. And I said, look, Christopher, I'm a hypocrite. I can't live up to what Jesus
59:51
told me to live up to. But if I could, I wouldn't need him. And when people tell me, I can't go to
59:56
church, Chris, there's too many hypocrites down there. I always say, come on down, pal. We got room
1:00:00
for one more. We're all hypocrites. We're all fallen. We all need a Savior. Now, I try and live by what
1:00:09
the Billy Graham Manifesto, Modesto Manifesto was. Have you ever heard of that, Kyle? Modesto
1:00:14
Manifesto? I haven't heard that terminology. Is that just kind of how he dealt with women in public?
1:00:19
Yeah. Modesto Manifesto was back in the late 40s. He and his team were in Modesto, California,
1:00:24
and they said, look, there are three things that can get any of us in trouble. And this is true that
1:00:30
Jay Warner, while I was probably told you the same thing, when you had him on the program,
1:00:34
when he finds a dead body, he's a detective, right? He finds a murdered body. He knows that that guy
1:00:40
has been murdered for one of three reasons or a combination of these three, not a thousand reasons,
1:00:44
just one or one or more of these three. There was either a sex issue, a money issue, or a power
1:00:50
issue, sex, money, or power. Those are the three things that can cause people to murder.
1:00:55
There are also the three things that can influence any of us to sin. Why? Because sex,
1:00:59
money, and power are good things, but they're so good that we'll sometimes take shortcuts to get
1:01:04
them. That's what we'll do. We'll take shortcuts to get these things. And so we need to protect
1:01:09
ourselves from being tempted by sex, money, and power, or power. So what the Modesto Manifesto was,
1:01:16
is Billy Graham and his team came together and said, we got to protect ourselves from temptation.
1:01:20
So number one, we are never going to be in the presence of another woman who's not our wives
1:01:25
alone. Okay, we can be in the presence of other women with other people. That's fine. But never
1:01:30
alone in a room with someone who's not our wife, unless it's your mother, you get the idea,
1:01:35
right? Yeah, someone related to you is fine. Okay. So we want to protect ourselves from sexual
1:01:40
temptation. Number two, we are never going to handle the money. Okay. Other people are going to
1:01:45
handle the money. We're not in it for the money. We don't want to be caught with money. Any donations
1:01:51
go right to the ministry. They're not going to us personally. Okay. And number three, a power can
1:01:57
also go to our heads. So we are never going to say so many people were saved. We're going to go with
1:02:02
what the, we might say, this is how many people came forward, but we're never going to exaggerate
1:02:08
those numbers. We're never going to exaggerate the numbers of people that came. We're going to go
1:02:14
with whatever the police said. If the police said there were 10,000 people there, that's what we'll say.
1:02:18
Okay. So we're going to protect ourselves on those three fronts. Now, throughout BGEA,
1:02:24
the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, which has been around for probably about 70 years now,
1:02:29
have you ever heard of any sexual money or power scandal? No, haven't. No. Why? Because they try
1:02:34
and live by the Modesto Manifesto with the Lord's help. I think we all need to put those boundaries
1:02:39
around us. Obviously, Robbie didn't do that. Okay. Now I didn't know Robbie very well. And you may
1:02:43
say I've worked directly with him. The only thing that Robbie and I ever did together was I asked him
1:02:48
to put the forward on our book, Stealing from God, which he did. He was gracious enough to do
1:02:53
that. And he and I were once on the stage together answering questions in a Q&A format. That's it.
1:02:59
And so when I, all this stuff came out about Robbie, I was shocked just like anybody else,
1:03:04
but it didn't waver my faith at all. In fact, it just showed me that we're all fallen and we all
1:03:09
need a savior. And it seemed to me that what, what, what got to Robbie said was he thought he was
1:03:14
above reproach. He didn't have to put any of those Modesto Manifesto accountability devices in his
1:03:20
life. He just decided he can handle it and he fell. And of course, any of us could fall.
1:03:25
Absolutely. Those things in your life, though. I think two important lessons. Number one,
1:03:29
you have to put those guardrails in your life for yourself. And the second thing is never put
1:03:32
your faith in a man. And you would include yourself in that. I include myself in that. I was like,
1:03:37
guys, please don't worship on Don to life. A man's podcast. Please don't do that. I'm not that good
1:03:42
like at any of this. And you know, don't worship cross examined or worship Frank Turk. But like,
1:03:47
that's the thing is when you have these people have these attacks of faith, when they realize
1:03:51
that Carl Lynch was a sexual deviant or that Robbie Zacharias was a sexual deviant. It's like,
1:03:56
if you got saved, if you came to faith in Christ at a Robbie Zacharias event and Robbie Zacharias
1:04:01
is an underpinned and crazy center, that doesn't mean that your faith individually is in vain.
1:04:06
Now, Frank, I feel like we could talk for the next like three or four hours, but we both got
1:04:10
stuff to do. So we got to go to the very, very end here. I like to do a segment towards the end
1:04:14
of my show. And I think you're going to be great at it. It's called what would you say
1:04:18
to someone that said? And so I'm going to say that. What would you say to someone that said?
1:04:23
And then I'm going to fill in the blank. But here's the deal. It's lightning round. So you get 30
1:04:27
seconds maximum to give me an answer, regardless of how big or small the topic is. So what would
1:04:32
you say to someone that said? Are you up for it? Go. All right, let's do the first one. What would
1:04:37
you say to someone that said, I can't figure out how to convince my friend to become a Christian?
1:04:41
First thing I'd say is, what do you mean by that? And where is your friend now? Okay, what is he
1:04:47
already believe? Ask him questions. Why do you think that's true? See, when somebody says something,
1:04:53
it's not your job to refute what they say. It's their job to support what they say.
1:04:57
So I would, I would get them my friend, Greg Coker's book tactics, because these are questions you
1:05:02
should ask. What do you mean by that? How'd you come to that conclusion? Why do you think
1:05:06
that atheism's true? Why do you think anything's true? What evidence do you have for that? That's
1:05:11
what I would ask them. The Colombo method tactics is a fantastic book. Right next one here. What
1:05:15
would you say to someone that said? Why does Frank yell so much? Because I'm from New Jersey.
1:05:20
We all knew the answer to that one before you even said, all right, next one here. What would
1:05:24
you say to someone that said, all Jews are going to hell? All people are going to hell if they
1:05:30
haven't accepted Christ. So not all Jews are going to hell because some Jews accept Jesus.
1:05:35
In fact, Paul even says in Romans 11, a disputed passage, all Israel will be saved. Who is all
1:05:40
Israel? I think all Israel are those that put their trust in the Messiah. That's the true Israel.
1:05:45
Okay. So everyone's going to hell without Jesus. Why? Because we're all sinners. So we need a
1:05:50
Savior and He's our Savior. All right. Next rapid fire question here. What would you say to someone
1:05:54
that said? All Catholics are going to hell. You can't say that because, well, first of all,
1:06:02
let's go back to Jews for a second. Some Jews are believing in Jesus so that not all Jews are going
1:06:07
to hell. Some Catholics are believing in Jesus. In fact, a lot of people, I was brought up Catholic.
1:06:11
I know what the Catholic Church is about. I'm not a Catholic now. I'm a Protestant, but I speak
1:06:15
mostly of Protestant churches. And sometimes I get questions from Protestants saying, do you think
1:06:19
Catholics can be saved? And I always say, I even think some Baptists can be saved, right? Because
1:06:24
it's not where you go to church that saves you. It's whether or not you've accepted the free gift
1:06:27
of salvation. Now, some Catholics have accepted that. Many have not. And let me just say this. I've
1:06:33
been to hundreds of masses in my life. And I never, ever heard the gospel at a mass until
1:06:43
my father's funeral. When the priest said, I talked to Frank, he's accepted Jesus as a savior. So he's
1:06:50
on his way to heaven. Wow. That priest understood the gospel. But up to that point, I had never heard
1:06:57
it. Now, again, I'm not saying Catholics can't be saved. But in my experience, I have not seen the
1:07:02
Catholic Church be really clear about the gospel. Well, that's just fodder for our next conversation.
1:07:07
So I'd love to talk more about that. But we got, we got to ask these last few here. So what would
1:07:11
you say to someone that said, a loving God couldn't possibly send anyone to hell?
1:07:15
That's not true. A loving God judges sin. Because if you don't judge sin, you're not loving Mirasov
1:07:24
Wolf, who was a who is now teaches at Yale University. But early on in his life, I think he's from
1:07:30
originally Czechoslovakia or somewhere. He said, I can't believe in a God that would judge people.
1:07:36
But then when he saw the fruits of the, I think he's actually from Serbia, there was a war that
1:07:44
went on where he saw many people murdered and raped. And after that, he said, I can't believe
1:07:48
in a God that wouldn't judge sin. How can you believe in a God that wouldn't right all wrongs?
1:07:54
You have to write all wrongs. That's what justice is. And that's what God does.
1:07:58
Yeah, social justice comes from the idea that you don't believe in cosmic justice. All right,
1:08:02
next one here. What would you say to someone that said, I'm okay with God, but not the church?
1:08:06
I could agree with you because the church is full of sinners. And as I said earlier,
1:08:14
if if someone plays Beethoven poorly, you don't blame Beethoven. Okay. So yes, I think the church
1:08:21
is flawed, but the church is God's organization on earth, the group of believers who are there
1:08:27
to make disciples and to try and make disciples of all nations. So even though it's flawed,
1:08:33
it still is God's means of achieving his kingdom, of bringing more people into his kingdom.
1:08:41
So you shouldn't expect it to be perfect. It's full of flawed people like the rest of us,
1:08:46
but it's still God's way of getting things done here on earth. He gives us the dignity of causality
1:08:50
to actually affect time and eternity through what we do here on earth.
1:08:53
All right, just a few more left. What would you say to someone that said believing in a young earth
1:08:58
is silly? Well, I think Christians, when people ask, you know, how old is the earth,
1:09:03
they always say I'm absolutely convinced it's at least 60 years old. Okay. All right. I throw my
1:09:08
mom in there. It's at least 84. Okay. Christians argue over this. I think the evidence is better
1:09:14
that it's old, but no matter which view you take, you have to make assumptions you can't prove,
1:09:19
like the speed of the light from the stars. If the speed of light hasn't changed the earth appear,
1:09:24
or the universe appears to be 13.8 billion years old. If the speed of light has changed,
1:09:28
by that dating method, we don't know how old the earth is or the universe is,
1:09:31
but is it a good assumption to say the universe or the speed of light hasn't changed? The answer,
1:09:36
yeah, it's probably a good assumption. Why? Because if you change the speed of light,
1:09:39
you got to change all the other laws of physics with it. Right. So the universe appears to be old,
1:09:43
but I don't care how old it is really tell you the truth because you need a creator no matter
1:09:47
how far back you go. And if you want to ask a question about Genesis or what it means, we can,
1:09:51
but well, that's the thing. I think one day in heaven, we'll clink our glasses together and say,
1:09:56
Oh, Johnny was right or oh, Tim. I don't think it really matters. All right. A couple left and
1:10:00
we'll get you out of here. What would you say to someone that said, we can't believe in the
1:10:03
entire Bible because many of the stories have no historical or archaeological evidence supporting
1:10:09
them? Well, you can't prove everything in the Bible. Just like you can't prove anything,
1:10:14
everything in any historical work. You can't prove it. You can't prove that everything in a book
1:10:20
about World War II occurred either. All you can do is go on what the eyewitnesses have said. Okay.
1:10:26
So just because you can't confirm everything with archaeology doesn't mean it didn't happen.
1:10:31
And the reason I believe the entire Bible is true is because Jesus did. And I just have
1:10:35
a personal policy. If somebody dies, first of all, predicts and accomplishes his own
1:10:40
resurrection from the dead, I just trust whatever the guy says because he's validated his claim to
1:10:44
be God. And we have enough historical evidence to know that the things Jesus said about the Bible
1:10:49
really happened. So we're not using the Bible to prove the Bible. We're using the Bible documents,
1:10:55
the New Testament documents as historical documents to see if we have good evidence to believe
1:10:59
that what went on in those documents actually did go on. And I think we have good evidence for
1:11:04
that. That's what we cover and I don't have enough faith to be needed. Hey, we can't even fully prove
1:11:09
beyond a shadow of a doubt that Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon but I don't hear Joe Rogan
1:11:14
talking about how we don't even know if Julius Caesar existed. All right, last question of the day,
1:11:17
what would you say to someone that said, no matter what you say, Frank, I'll never believe in God.
1:11:22
Well, I will say then that's that's a volitional problem, not a head problem. You have a heart
1:11:30
problem, not a head problem. This is why I always ask people, particularly atheists on college
1:11:34
campuses, when they get up to the Q and A mic, if they express any hostility, I'll normally stop
1:11:38
and ask them if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? And some of them will say no,
1:11:44
and then I'll say, well, why? Why wouldn't you believe something if it were true? That's that's
1:11:50
not reasonable, right? Well, of course, it has nothing to do with reason. It's not a head problem,
1:11:53
it's a heart problem. They don't want it to be true. They don't want God to exist. Why? Because
1:11:57
they want to be God of their own lives. They're not on a truth quest or on a happiness quest and
1:12:01
they're just going to believe whatever they think is going to make them happy. Here's the problem.
1:12:05
You can make yourself happy over the short term doing a lot of fun things, but over the long
1:12:09
term, it's a disaster. And anyone listening to us right now, Kyle, who's over 40 knows what we're
1:12:13
talking about, because many of us have tried it ourselves. Now, you just can't live any way you
1:12:17
want without consequence. If the only way to get true contentment is to go straight through truth,
1:12:22
then Jesus is the truth. So always ask people the question, if Christianity were true, would you
1:12:27
become a Christian? If they hesitate or say no, the problem's not a head problem, it's a hard
1:12:31
problem. And then it's pearls before swine at that point. And also asking that question. And in
1:12:35
addition, say, Hey, if you're wrong, would you want to know? Because some people don't, they love
1:12:41
the blissful ignorance that they live in. But Frank, I got to tell you, this was a great conversation.
1:12:45
I really, really enjoyed it. Guys, go get his books during the show notes. Make sure you subscribe
1:12:49
to YouTube and everything. And we're going to get into all that later. But as for now,
1:12:53
that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:12:55
No, just check out Cross Examined.org. Check out our podcast. I don't have enough faith to be an
1:13:01
atheist. It's once a week, 48 minutes. We also have a TV program, all that you can see across
1:13:07
examined.org. We have an app as well towards in the app store, cross examined. You can see the
1:13:11
TV show streaming layer streaming there that you podcast there. And as you mentioned, those books
1:13:16
you'll put in the show notes. So it'll all be there. Guys, check it out. Pick it up. Frank
1:13:21
Turk. Thank you for coming on Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. Thanks, Kyle. Great being with you.
1:13:25
There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Frank Turk. But before we let you go,
1:13:29
we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping
1:13:32
men to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual mental and physical resilience. So
1:13:36
here are the links I've got for you today. I've got a link to Frank's Cross Examined website.
1:13:40
And that will get you to his blog, his podcast, his YouTube channel and all that. I've got a link
1:13:44
to his Amazon page where you can pick up his books. I've got a link specifically to the Cross Examined
1:13:48
YouTube channel and then a very specific YouTube video. It's called I Don't Have Enough Faith to
1:13:52
be an atheist live from you of Texas. So this was a presentation, I believe he gave in 2021,
1:13:57
which you know, it's like three hours. So he does a bunch of Q&A, but then he gets into a lot of the
1:14:00
higher points of his books. All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening to the show. We do
1:14:03
appreciate it wherever you're listening to this. Please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive
1:14:06
five star review. If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an
1:14:10
email to info@Undaunted.life. That's iNFO@Undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook
1:14:16
and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like
1:14:20
this coming your way. Just go to www.Undaunted.life. And as always, we want to thank the band August
1:14:25
Burns Red for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song
1:14:29
Cutting the Ties, which is off their 10th anniversary re-recording of their album Leveler. The links are
1:14:34
in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging
1:14:40
spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:15:10
[Music]