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0:48
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:53
Let's get into it.
0:54
You guys today, we got part two of our interview with Eddie Penny, and if you didn't listen
0:57
to the previous episode, first of all, what's wrong with you?
0:59
Why are you listening to the sequel before you listen to part one?
1:02
But that's okay.
1:03
Eddie is a retired Navy SEAL, and he spent 12 years in the SEAL teams, and six of those
1:06
was with the Naval Special Warfare Development Group, and before that, he was in the United
1:10
States Marine Corps as an infantryman.
1:11
He's also the CEO and founder of Contingent Group, which was founded in 2013, so that's
1:16
where he does risk mitigation and security consulting and executive asset protection and
1:21
a bunch of other stuff.
1:22
He's also the creator of the Unafraid Mindset Brand, which led him to write his brand new
1:25
book, which we talked a lot about yesterday, and we will continue that today.
1:28
That is his autobiography called Unafraid.
1:31
And again, I mentioned this in the last one, but his best accomplishment of his entire
1:35
life is that he was the first guest of this podcast.
1:37
So I guess he was our first guest, and then he came back on an episode 227.
1:40
He was on the last episode, and he's on this one.
1:42
So that makes it four times.
1:43
But in this particular podcast or in this version or this section, I guess, rather of
1:47
the interview that I did with him, we really dig into the concept of evil because he got
1:51
to see evil up close while he was serving also what it was like losing one of his best
1:56
friends in combat.
1:57
Also the time he had to choose between becoming a single father and his career as a top tier,
2:03
you know, elite member of the Navy SEAL teams, also where he was when Adam Brown was killed.
2:08
So obviously if you've listened to this show for any length of time, you know that my favorite
2:11
book is a book by Eric Blan where he talks about Adam Brown and it's a book called Fearless
2:16
and it's just an incredible book.
2:18
And he was, you know, good friends with Adam.
2:19
They served on the same team and he was not there when Adam was killed and we get into
2:22
why that was and how a single decision kept him from being killed on extortion 17.
2:27
We dig a lot into that.
2:29
The moment that President Barack Obama gained his respect forever and I gained a deep level
2:33
of respect whenever I went through this story as well, which was in the book, we talk about
2:37
that here.
2:38
When he met me, this old guy right here at a Christian event in Oklahoma, like 10 years
2:43
ago or something like that and how he claims that that changed his spiritual life.
2:47
And he decided to leave the military, his personal batter with thoughts with thoughts
2:50
of suicide, which is kind of crazy to get into his thoughts on manliness inside the church
2:54
and a bunch of other things.
2:56
But guys, before we get into that, again, this is a veteran on a podcast and we got to talk
3:00
about one of my favorite veteran owned companies and that is Casey cattle company.
3:03
They are the sponsor for today's show.
3:05
And as I mentioned on the last episode, there are a bunch of different meat delivery subscription
3:08
services out there, but guys, a lot of them don't have the things in common that I'm
3:12
about to read off to you.
3:14
There's only one of these companies that is US military veteran owned, US military veteran
3:18
operated and all of their products that they make, right?
3:21
So the beef, the chicken, the pork, all of those are produced here in the United States.
3:25
That's Casey cattle company.
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They specialize in wagyu beef.
3:28
If you didn't listen yesterday, I talked a little bit about the wagyu beef and how I
3:32
heard about wagyu beef before, but then I really got to experience it with Casey cattle
3:36
company and I'll let you go to the last previous one where we talk about wagyu beef and how
3:39
it is and all the marbling.
3:41
But they sent me a bunch of different things, you know, I made a bone in wagyu ribeye.
3:45
It is currently the best steak that I've ever made in my entire life.
3:48
And I've got a bunch more stakes that they sent me as well as brought worse and hot dogs
3:53
and their hot dogs are technically something just absolutely incredible that they've never
3:57
really, well, they've been acknowledged for because they do sell everything.
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They sell wagyu steaks.
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They sell, they sell wagyu roast and pasture raised chicken and pasture rage, Berkshire
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pork are, you know, they have bacon and they've got wagyu, bacon cheeseburger, bratwurst,
4:11
which are amazing, but they're world famous for their hot dogs.
4:15
Like if you didn't know this, they have a wagyu gourmet hot dog, right?
4:19
Yeah, I think on their website, it actually says world famous wagyu gourmet hot dog.
4:23
So food and wine magazine, they named this the best hot dog in the world.
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And they even, I thought this was really hilarious.
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They called it a tube steak because they, they said that this hot dog literally tastes
4:35
like a steak on a bun.
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Now, I've had some hot dogs before.
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It doesn't take a whole lot to impress me with the hot dog.
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These are on another level.
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It doesn't make sense.
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Like it literally does not make sense whenever you put it in your mouth and you take a bite
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and you're just like, wow, wow, like it's literally just absolutely flabbergasting.
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So guys, I want to make sure that you can experience those hot dogs, all of their other
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products on their website.
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So in order to test out their products, you can go to kcattlecompany.com.
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5:15
All right, guys, let's get into part two with Eddie Penny.
5:19
So without further ado, let's get into it.
5:21
Well, and it caused you, and you described this in the kilo chapter, it, it caused you
5:26
to not only just think about your own mortality, but it caused you to really think about good
5:31
and evil.
5:32
Okay, how do we understand the difference between good and evil?
5:36
There has to be a moral code with which, like, how do we know that that guy doing that on
5:39
the side of the road?
5:40
How do we know that that's a bad thing?
5:42
How do we know that that's not just his preference?
5:44
You know, his body, his choice, you can do whatever he wants with his body to whoever
5:47
else's body.
5:48
Right.
5:49
Like, so absolutely.
5:50
So there has to be some sort of standard by which we judge that, but you obviously spend
5:56
a lot of time dealing with, you know, death that was around you, death, you know, considering
6:02
your own death and your own mortality.
6:04
But in chapter Lima of the book, you describe losing a brother of yours named Luis.
6:09
And I know this is going to be a hard one for you to talk through.
6:11
And the reason why I know that, and I'll give you a little bit of time so so I can set it
6:15
up.
6:16
The only time you and I have been around each other and we'll describe, you know, the camp
6:18
you and I were at a little bit later here in the episode, you and I are sitting down.
6:23
It's probably two, three, four in the morning at this point.
6:26
And you describe what happened.
6:27
It's really sober.
6:28
Yeah.
6:29
Yeah.
6:30
It's not a whiskey trip.
6:31
This is a water trip, right?
6:33
And you know, you're describing the situation that happened with Luis.
6:37
And I'll let you describe whatever details you want to because you go into a lot of detail
6:40
in the book.
6:41
But basically because of something that you said, you told him to go to a certain area,
6:48
you yourself went to a different area, your life continued, but his did not.
6:54
And you, the way you were describing it to me, again, this Eddie, this is 10 years ago when
6:57
you're describing, assuming it was this overwhelming sense of guilt, almost this paternal like
7:01
guilt that there is something different that you should have done.
7:04
And if you had done something different, then Luis would still be alive today.
7:07
But again, we can't really unravel that because it's a, it's something that can't be proved
7:11
or disproven.
7:12
Like if, if you had zigged at that time, maybe someone else would have zagged and you would
7:16
have caught a bullet.
7:17
There's so many different things that, that happened, but go into as much of that stories
7:21
you want to, because for me, of all the things that you describe in the book, it's the most
7:25
memorable for me and I guess it's because I kind of knew it was coming.
7:28
I knew how much this had an impact on you because you and I talked about it so many
7:31
years ago.
7:32
That was the first chapter done in the book was this chapter.
7:35
Okay.
7:36
There you go.
7:37
Because it's like the freshest and can still see it on my brain, which is kind of funny.
7:40
I don't know if you ever heard of brain spotting.
7:41
I've been doing a lot of brain spotting lately with talk therapy.
7:44
That's kind of like EMDR where you watch on the lights, but it just, it's gotten so much
7:48
better with this specific situation.
7:50
She's like, do you want to start off with something small?
7:52
I'm like, no, we're going for the freaking bigahooner right now, let's go.
7:55
So we started talking about him and I'm not going to go crazy in detail because I want
7:58
to say for some of the readers, but had him move up to the front door and I went up once
8:03
I saw the craziness that was happened.
8:05
I moved up right next to him.
8:07
So close to my left hand was on his right shoulder and I can still see the beat of sweat
8:13
coming down his neck because it was freaking hot as heck and I'm like, there's something
8:18
inside me like, get away, get away.
8:22
I've never felt that because I've told you this a thousand times on other podcasts and
8:26
it's in the book of Tom's disease, terrified of missing stuff and I just got to be in the
8:30
action.
8:31
I have to be in the action.
8:32
Never have I walked away.
8:33
I'm like, we'll just risk it.
8:34
We'll throw the dice and see what happens.
8:37
Something about that just like I didn't because there were so many people on top of each other
8:41
there was like eight of us.
8:42
I'm like, man, if the grenade happens, the building explodes like we're screwed and like
8:46
we can't do that, man.
8:47
Now you're going to leave like six dudes have to take care of eight like we're done.
8:51
But there's something in me again that said like, dude, get out.
8:54
Get away.
8:55
Move now.
8:56
And I just told Louie, I was like, hey, man, moving behind the wall where I came from.
9:00
I love you.
9:01
And he's like, I love you too.
9:02
I got this.
9:03
And I rolled out soon as I went back, maybe 15, 20 hours wrapped the the outside gate,
9:07
the frickin whole building exploded.
9:10
And the pillar that we were I left him by, there was like a big overhang.
9:15
It kind of slid down and just crushed a man and so yeah, I kind of, yeah, I kind of go
9:25
back to what if the what if what if gay man, but I didn't what if it is what it is.
9:31
Unfortunately, it wasn't it was a wrong call.
9:33
I wish I did not say that.
9:36
So yeah, I love it.
9:37
That keeps me up at night still.
9:38
It hurts.
9:39
But yeah, that's yeah, that that just kind of grew inside me and you know, I didn't become
9:48
softer as the wars went on with that, you know, behind me.
9:52
But that was that was that was rough, dude.
9:53
That was a that was probably my number one and there's been a lot of losses, but that's
9:57
probably been my biggest one just because of what I told him right before and I was just
10:02
right there and I questioned myself like, why why him not me?
10:06
Why do I still breathe?
10:07
He does it like what makes us different?
10:10
Why?
10:11
What I so many unanswered questions and they're not for they're not for me to know, they're
10:15
not for me to know.
10:16
So Eddie, after our late night conversation or early morning conversation, years and years
10:20
ago, if I had to put one word that would could be stamped on that conversation, that would
10:25
define that conversation, it would be guilt.
10:28
You obviously you were like soaked, you were marinated in this guilt over that decision
10:32
and over his death.
10:34
And so today I do you still feel like you were responsible?
10:40
Do you still feel like you you bear responsibility for that?
10:43
Like do you still feel guilty over that?
10:45
Because it's been a long time since we talked about, it's been a long time since you lost
10:48
him.
10:49
Do you still feel it?
10:50
It's also been a long process, but not as bad as I used to.
10:56
It's still it's still lingers.
10:58
I still question.
10:59
I'm like, why do you do that?
11:00
Why do you say I can't help it, man?
11:01
And I've tried every frickin therapy, no to mankind, I'm trying it all still door to this
11:06
day.
11:07
Dude, it's a it's a tough frickin pill to swallow.
11:12
But what I have done is I've been able to look at his life as what positives he brought
11:18
into mind, how I'm a better person because of him, how he was legendary.
11:23
But yeah, at the same time, man, it's still hard.
11:25
It's still rough.
11:26
I can't be like, no, I yeah, everything's good.
11:28
Yeah, it is what I just I have a hard time saying those words because I still feel a
11:33
little piece of it there.
11:34
Well, I'm going to tell you something similar before we move on to what I told you that
11:38
night.
11:39
And again, you know, it was as much wisdom as I could muster when I'm like 24 or 25 years
11:43
old when we had that first conversation.
11:45
But it's just like you it's not your fault that somebody evil did something evil, right?
11:53
Because the amount of evil that you have taken out of the world is considerable.
11:57
And we know what would happen if you knew that that was going to happen.
12:03
We know that you would have got him out of there and not just yourself.
12:06
Like we know that, but you can't beat yourself up over the things that are completely outside
12:11
of your control.
12:12
And I know you know that intellectually, but hopefully as the years go on that you'll internalize
12:16
that even more.
12:17
And I know you're on that path.
12:18
So yeah, I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.
12:24
But to get into another difficult subject that's in kind of a different side of things, you
12:27
know, talked about this in chapter Mike, you go into great detail about kind of the erratic
12:32
behavior of your wife at the time, who's the mother of your children, you have three children
12:36
at the time.
12:37
And it led you to probably make the toughest call that you've had to make up to that point
12:40
in your life.
12:42
You literally had to choose between becoming a single father and your career as an elite
12:48
Navy SEAL.
12:50
So you were, it seems like an impossible decision and not both at the same time.
12:55
But you go into all the details to the specifics around that case.
12:58
We don't have to get into that here.
13:00
But take us through that decision process because you're about to deploy again with your team.
13:05
I forget it maybe was your fifth or sixth deployment or something like that.
13:08
But instead you say, no, I'm a single father of three.
13:11
So take us through that.
13:12
Yeah, it was, it was all my eighth deployment.
13:15
You know, it would have been my, it would have been my sixth deployment, right?
13:20
It was, it was the deployment that Adam Brown passed.
13:23
And I couldn't go to, I was supposed to go to Afghanistan.
13:26
I couldn't go because I got custody of my children.
13:28
And holy life changing events, like I was like my life's over, like so many, so many
13:37
things.
13:38
And again, if you notice as I'm talking like me, me, me, me, it's not about me.
13:43
It's not about me, and it took me some, some time to figure that one out, but it was about
13:46
there's three kids, there's three kids saved my life.
13:52
Another touchy subject.
13:53
Sorry.
13:54
Yeah, it was, it was an adjustment.
13:58
I had to learn how to be a father from going overseas constantly to all I cared about was
14:03
myself, the team, the team, the seal teams, and getting bad guys to now I got to do pig
14:09
tails.
14:10
I got to make breakfast.
14:11
I got to pack lunches.
14:12
We got these things called school dances.
14:14
What's a, what's a daddy, like daddy daughter dance, like what, what do we do here, like
14:18
just learn like totally out of my element, not knowing what's going, not knowing how
14:23
to act, not having emotion, didn't even know what emotion was.
14:27
Remember my kids talking to me, I'm like, dude, you're fine.
14:30
Let's go.
14:31
You got this.
14:32
Like just, just things that we, I mean, if you're an outsider, if I was an outsider
14:34
and I'd be like, no, stop, don't say that, like, or don't act that way.
14:39
And I just didn't know what I was doing, man.
14:42
I was just a, again, a freaking kid, a child in a freaking grown up's body.
14:47
I didn't, I wasn't, I wasn't absent father, man, I was, and then I was kind of forced
14:52
into the role of like, all right, now your mom and your dad, it's time.
14:57
And I just gradually learned it wasn't easy.
14:59
The drinking got worse.
15:01
The pill popping got worse.
15:03
I couldn't sleep.
15:04
I was thinking about boys overseas.
15:05
I was thinking about my life, I'm like, this sucks kind of something about, like, I don't
15:09
even know how to handle these kids.
15:10
Like, what am I supposed to do with these guys tomorrow?
15:12
I didn't know what to do with them.
15:13
Like, what, like, here's food.
15:14
All right.
15:15
You want to eat again?
15:16
Like what?
15:17
I don't, I don't even hang out.
15:18
You know what I mean?
15:19
Like, so you just kind of expand and, you know, sort of reading books and learning and
15:23
listening and started dabbling into church a little bit because I needed something.
15:29
And, but that was the toughest and best time of my life.
15:35
Yeah.
15:36
I mean, it was a big maturity pill that you had to swallow at the time.
15:38
The thing that was great about your command is your command kind of came around you and
15:42
every dude to freak in a leadership man.
15:45
Amazing.
15:46
Yeah.
15:47
They knew how close you were to deployment.
15:48
They're like, no, you got to take care of this and all those different things.
15:50
But again, that was the deployment.
15:52
As you mentioned, that Adam Brown was killed on.
15:54
And so anyone that's listened to this podcast for any length of time, they know that my favorite
15:57
book of all time is The Book Fearless by Eric Blinn.
16:00
That's about the life of Adam Brown and just an incredible, incredible person.
16:03
But this is obviously your still brother and you weren't there with him and presumably
16:07
you would have been on that same mission where he was killed in Afghanistan.
16:11
And so you're not on deployment because you're at home with your kids and then you get the
16:14
phone call that Adam had had been killed by these terrorists.
16:18
So I mean, take us through that.
16:20
What was that like?
16:21
Because it's not the first time you had gotten a phone call like that, but you were supposed
16:25
to be there.
16:26
It's obviously very different.
16:27
And I don't know if I would have been on that exact mission, but I would have been overseas
16:29
with him and who knows if whatever, but just not being over there or country, I didn't
16:37
like it.
16:38
It sucked.
16:39
It was horrible.
16:40
And not the match.
16:41
A frickin' tough-as-nail dudes with just like talk about a no-quit frickin' attitude,
16:46
man.
16:47
The guy is like tough as nails and I lost his life and it was just like holy crap, like
16:52
dang it.
16:53
You know, it just made you think, it kind of makes you think when I heard that news.
16:58
And by team leader Colby, I remember just frickin' sitting there taking shots because that's
17:02
what we do when people, you know, pass as we take shots and remember it's.
17:07
But dude, it's just a lot of self-reflection when you can't go off.
17:11
You know, usually you can stay busy by going on mission, by going on mission.
17:15
But when you're back home with the kids, there's a lot of time to think and a lot of time for
17:19
the double, suposable, evil ways in your brain and he did that for sure.
17:24
I got to have played.
17:25
Yeah.
17:26
It was a rough time for you.
17:27
Obviously you and I have talked about that individually before we talked about that in
17:31
the book.
17:32
Just a crazy time.
17:33
And that's something that a lot of people have had to deal with is how do they respond
17:37
to that type of a situation.
17:39
And it just kind of goes back to there's always these little decisions that can, you know,
17:43
irrevocably change your entire life, you know, missing that one shot, you know, deciding
17:47
that you wanted to go into the military, deciding to become a single father and all those different
17:50
things.
17:51
But there was another decision in chapter Oscar of your book and it was to join one team
17:55
as opposed to another team.
17:57
And had you made a different decision, you and I would have never met.
18:01
This would likely, this conversation certainly isn't happening because you discussed how
18:05
that single decision likely saved your life because it kept you from being one of the
18:08
people that was killed during extortion 17.
18:11
So there's a lot of information out there about extortion 17.
18:13
And on that particular mission, you know, a one in a million shot by a terrorist RPG hit
18:20
a helicopter killed 38 men, 15 members of the development group, two other seals, five
18:25
NSW support personnel, three Air Force special operators, five Army flight crew members, one
18:30
military working dog and also seven Afghan commandos and one interpreter.
18:36
The biggest loss of life to the spec ops community, I think up to that point and since then,
18:41
obviously the tier one loss of those types of people that the, you know, just the experience
18:48
that was lost all in that moment, you could have very easily been there, but you weren't.
18:53
So you go into the decision there, but you know, let's talk about that a little bit because
18:57
I know August 6th every year for you, that's a rough day because you have to remember all
19:02
those people that you came up through in training.
19:04
And again, like for me, that's my birthday and then it's kind of a weird thing for me
19:08
because I'm so close with a lot of you guys that were in and around those guys as well.
19:12
And it's just like, man, it's a horrible day and it's a day that's either spent in Arlington
19:16
or wishing you were at Arlington to be with the guys that that have been buried there.
19:20
But you know, take me through a little bit of that and kind of the aftermath of extortion
19:24
17.
19:25
So that was my seventh deployment, I believe, and Jason was in that troop and like I was,
19:32
I got my kids went away for summer vacation, so they went for their mom, so my old command
19:40
or my old unit was deploying like a week or two later.
19:43
So I was like, hey, can I jump on this?
19:44
They're like, sure.
19:45
So I started training up for it, you know, about two or three months before we were going
19:49
out the door just to like, you know, hone in on my skills.
19:51
And I was like, man, that'd be cool to like, I was just like a, just a jump in.
19:55
I didn't have a role.
19:56
I was just like an extra shooter.
19:57
So I was like, man, I'll just jump in with Jason and we're about to bring it up.
20:00
Okay, let's, uh, let's try to get you over here and not go with your old guys and like
20:04
we're like, we're going to break it up to our command and try to get so I could deploy
20:08
with them because we never really got to do a deployment at that command together because
20:12
he was a breach.
20:13
I was a preacher.
20:14
So we're, you know, you're separated.
20:16
So I just like thought about like, man, you know what, dude, I was like, I got to go with
20:19
my old guys.
20:20
Like, so we didn't even bring it up.
20:22
We didn't push for it.
20:23
And I just, I just made that decision like I need to do with my team.
20:25
So I think I belong, the heart said that's where you need to go and, um, luckily that
20:32
was my decision.
20:34
Unluckily that happened, man.
20:35
It's a, it's a tragedy.
20:37
It sucks.
20:38
And there is a lot of controversy around that bottom line is what I've said on many
20:41
podcasts is those studs, those warriors, those legends are here no longer.
20:47
And remember them for the greatness that they brought to my life.
20:49
Like that's all I can do.
20:50
That's, that's it.
20:51
Yeah.
20:52
It's not a, I don't really want to waste a whole lot of time on the conspiracy theories
20:55
as to why those men were killed and all those different things.
20:57
Oh, it was a surface to air missile.
20:58
And like, I don't really want to get into all that because there's, it's just not worth
21:02
the time.
21:03
It's the same thing.
21:04
Like arguing with a nine 11 truther.
21:05
It's like, okay, the best kept secret in the history of the ever, there had to be thousands
21:09
of people involved for that to be an inside job, but sure you watch one documentary made
21:13
by some dork in his mother's basement and also, you know, you know more than the rest
21:17
of us.
21:18
But there was something in that chapter because, uh, for anyone that's listened to this podcast
21:21
were well over 300 episodes at this point, I've never had a good thing to say.
21:25
That's awesome.
21:26
Dude, by the way, that's awesome.
21:27
That's good.
21:28
Thank you.
21:29
Hey, you're in the podcast world now.
21:30
So I know you know how difficult this is.
21:32
It is.
21:33
So I appreciate that.
21:34
But for those that have listened, I have never had a good thing to say about president
21:37
Barack Obama.
21:38
I've never had a good thing to say about that guy more about that is, but that changes
21:42
now because of something that you wrote about in your book, because this, this kind of hurt
21:47
my personal narrative that he hated the military and he hated all these different people.
21:50
Because after extortion, 17, you guys are bringing the bodies back there, they're kind of coming
21:55
through.
21:56
I forget which base it was and everything like that.
21:57
And president Obama, uh, was, was there.
22:00
And there's a quote from the book that, you know, it's going to, it's going to tint how
22:03
I view that man for the rest of my life.
22:05
So I'm glad that you put that in there.
22:06
Here's the quote.
22:08
As the flag drape caskets were carried off, we all gathered and watched.
22:11
It was a stifling August day and the president stood in the hanger in a business suit at rigid
22:16
attention.
22:17
He's right hand held in a crisp hand salute for the more than 45 minutes that it took
22:22
to unload the caskets.
22:24
There were no TV cameras by showing his respect to those men.
22:28
He earned hours.
22:30
So again, to any of you guys like go stand in the middle of your yard right now, because
22:36
it's a hundred plus degrees right now in Oklahoma, stand there, add attention, rigid
22:40
attention in a suit, head to toe, you know, saluting and just to go do that.
22:45
Like that's a hard thing to do physically and mentally.
22:48
But this man did that when he knew there was no benefit to him politically that it wasn't
22:53
going to make the cover in New York Times.
22:55
It wasn't going to be put out there on Twitter with a special hashtag or anything like that.
22:59
But he showed you and your teammates a deep level of respect.
23:03
And you only get that from a deep sense of patriotism, which is something that I've questioned
23:08
about that man since he's left office and while he was in office.
23:12
And so I don't know if you have anything to add to that, but I wanted to make sure I read
23:15
that on the show just to be fair to that man because I think that that does deserve a deep
23:19
level of respect.
23:20
Yeah, again, I'm not a fan of him at all.
23:22
I'm not big on his policy protocols and I'm still not a fan of him now, but I'll tell
23:26
you in that day, in that moment that I'm going on three days, no sleep at that time.
23:31
I couldn't stand there like that.
23:33
I was done.
23:34
I was hungry.
23:35
I was hungry.
23:36
I was miserable.
23:37
I was mad at the world.
23:38
I was mad at him.
23:39
I didn't like him because this isn't my first time dealing with him for other operations.
23:44
So but seeing him do that, I mean, he, he made sure he shook every single person's hand,
23:51
every single person's hand.
23:53
And I was like, man, I really respect that even though I don't like the dude that much
23:57
at all.
23:59
But he stood there and it was hot.
24:01
It was miserable.
24:03
It was sweaty.
24:04
It was gross and the dude, he didn't break.
24:07
He didn't break.
24:09
It wasn't, he didn't show any signs of like this sucks as I'm uncomfortable.
24:13
I don't want to be here, like straight face, no emotion.
24:17
I was like, all right, man, like I got to give it to you, dude, like I got to give it to
24:20
him.
24:21
I do.
24:22
Yeah.
24:23
Uh, again, I don't see another narrative other than deep levels of patriotism, why somebody
24:28
would do that.
24:29
That's why I've told people before, they're like, Oh, so, you know, what would you say
24:32
to him?
24:33
If you ever met him, I was like, I would shake his hand and say, Hello, Mr. President.
24:36
Thank you for serving our country for eight years.
24:39
Thank you for being here.
24:40
Whatever event that we're at.
24:41
Right. And I would just leave it there because I don't care if I didn't vote for the guy.
24:43
He's still my president, like our current president or co president.
24:47
However, you view him, you know, he, he was elected sort of kind of, I guess.
24:51
And, you know, he's, he's, he's, he's in that title and like, he deserves our respect,
24:56
even though I disagree with everything that he does and everything to that point.
24:58
And in that same chapter where you talk about extortion, 17, you talk about Barack Obama,
25:02
you talk about how you kind of realize, Hey, this is, this is going to be my last appointment.
25:06
And that leads you, that led you to a chapter, Papa, where you, you decided, Hey, it's time
25:09
to leave the teams, you kind of take us all through that.
25:11
You know, you talk about some of the first jobs you got, you're doing some recruiting
25:15
and you're doing some different things, but you're still at this point, trying to figure
25:19
out what does life look like on the other side of a military career?
25:21
Because I think that what was it, 12 years in the seals, six years with development group,
25:25
was that it?
25:26
Okay.
25:27
So at that point, yeah.
25:28
Yeah.
25:29
So long career, but you're getting out.
25:30
And because of some unique circumstances that you go into in the book, you find yourself
25:36
in some random park in the middle of summer in Oklahoma, at a Christian men's retreat
25:42
to save this point in your life, to any, to say this point in your life, that you could
25:46
have thought of a million other places that you would have rather have been at that moment.
25:50
That would be an understatement.
25:51
So he found yourself there again, we don't have to get into the circumstances.
25:55
But there's a quote from that chapter where you describe this, you say this, as the weekend
25:59
progressed, I became envious of the piece that these men had found.
26:02
I am a prideful SOB who would never ask for it, but I hungered for someone to pray for
26:07
me.
26:08
So guys, this is a, you know, this is a camp that's modeled off of John Eldridge's Wild
26:12
out hard.
26:13
Again, John Eldridge is a great friend of the show and friend of mine, personally, a great
26:15
mentor of mine.
26:16
And so this organization had kind of, you know, built out this three, four day weekend
26:20
with all this fun stuff, but, you know, all these things that kind of go into the wild
26:24
at hard books.
26:25
So there's a lot of emotion.
26:26
There's a lot of things happening in these guys.
26:27
But then you talk about some stuff that you said at a campfire.
26:30
You had this camp, guys would write some stuff on a piece of paper, then they would talk
26:33
to everyone about the stuff that they wrote down.
26:35
They throw it into the fire.
26:36
It's real dramatic, blah, blah, blah.
26:37
But then you say this.
26:38
So we're going to go back to the book here, a young man in his early twenties approached
26:42
me and told me what I'd said was awesome and asked how I was feeling.
26:45
I'm good, dude.
26:46
I told him.
26:47
He then asked if he could pray for me.
26:49
I was a little, I was a little taken aback.
26:52
Here I was a 30 something seal combat veteran.
26:54
And this kid was bold enough to walk up to me with confidence.
26:57
He definitely had stones.
26:59
Still, I agreed since I'd waited for just such an opportunity or just such an offer as
27:04
the weekend progressed.
27:06
So spoiler alert, that young man in his early twenties with stones.
27:10
That was me.
27:11
So I go back to that night because like, I don't think I knew at this point.
27:17
I didn't, I don't think I knew that you were a seal.
27:19
I don't think I knew anything about you personally.
27:21
I don't think we had talked to one another, but I saw something interesting happen.
27:25
So everyone's kind of doing their dramatic, you know, writing on a piece of paper, throwing
27:27
it into the fire.
27:28
I said your thing and everybody's saying it.
27:30
And then when that something happened and the emotion of that circle with all those
27:35
men, because there's probably 90 dudes around that fire, maybe a hundred dudes, the emotion
27:40
got ratcheted up a little bit and you walked away and I was like, nope, that's not happening.
27:47
There's something happening here.
27:48
And again, I'm 24, 25 years old, something like that.
27:51
And I'm like, I don't know who that dude is.
27:53
Like I don't care about his tattoos.
27:54
Like I'm, no, I need to talk to that guy.
27:57
And so I leave the circle and, you know, here we are, you know, it's dark and everything
28:01
like that.
28:02
And I stopped you.
28:03
Hey, how you doing?
28:04
Like, Hey, let me pray for you because I didn't know what you were dealing with, but
28:06
I didn't think you were walking away because you had to go number two, right?
28:09
And I ended up being right on that.
28:11
So take me back to that moment for you because as you admitted on episode 100, you kind of
28:17
give me credit, which I do not accept, but you kind of give me credit for helping usher
28:21
you into Christianity and all I did was ask if I could pray for you.
28:25
So let's go back there.
28:26
I think that kind of just goes back to obedience is like, okay, why'd you stop me?
28:29
You just said you were kind of prompted to, you could easily, not a lot of guys would
28:34
have done that in my opinion, but you did.
28:38
And when you, when you did that, because I was in my head only saying I would really
28:42
like someone to pray for me because something's going on.
28:44
I see guys can pray for they're crying, then they're smiling.
28:47
This doesn't add up.
28:48
What's going on?
28:49
I'm missing, I'm missing a big picture here.
28:51
And you did that.
28:52
And I started tearing up.
28:53
I started losing it.
28:54
I don't know if you remember that, I was getting taken out in the best possible way.
29:00
So that was just like one of those things and happened that week and like, because I'm
29:04
over here testing, you know, we're not supposed to do that, they say, but dude, I'm testing
29:09
everything like, oh, really, I want this.
29:11
Oh, this is true.
29:12
They did it.
29:13
And I didn't say have someone pray for me or else.
29:16
It was just like saying like, I wish somebody would pray for me and everything that I would
29:21
say that about was like coming true.
29:23
And things that I didn't even think about were happening.
29:26
And I'm like, man, this is just all too much for a thing we call a coincidence because
29:30
there's no such thing in my mind.
29:32
And it was just, it was one of those things that was like one of those layers of like,
29:37
dude, this is this is real deal because I gotta be honest with you, man.
29:41
I didn't, I thought a lot of people were quacks when I got there.
29:44
I did.
29:45
Like, that's just the truth.
29:47
I don't feel that way anymore.
29:49
And now I'm called the quack.
29:50
And I'm like, thank you.
29:52
You bring up a really good point and I think you use the word obedience.
29:58
So that's something that I'm, that I'm trying to get better at when I feel God's prompting
30:02
to just go ahead and do it.
30:03
Like it doesn't matter how much, like if you're going to be late for whatever the next thing
30:06
is, like just, just talk to that person, do the thing.
30:08
And here's the thing guys is you give me a little shout out in your book.
30:11
That's great.
30:12
You told me about this later on, on a podcast interview about how I helped you and all that's
30:16
great.
30:17
But what if you didn't?
30:19
What if that was the last time I ever heard from Eddie Penny and one day I would be like,
30:24
yeah, I wonder whatever happened with that guy and then I just moved on.
30:26
Now you and I have kept a friendship going.
30:28
So obviously it's different.
30:29
I kind of know what that happened.
30:30
But the same impact will have been had regardless of whether or not I knew that it happened.
30:36
So you can ask someone to pray for them.
30:38
Like that's something that I do before I, you know, when the, the server comes up to
30:41
your table, gives you your food, says, is there anything else I can grab you?
30:43
And it's like, I always have a habit of like, Hey, we're about to bless our meal.
30:46
Is there anything that we can pray, be praying for you about?
30:48
Right?
30:49
It's like not have any impact.
30:52
No one's ever, you know, poured water in my face or hit me or anything like that.
30:55
The worst case scenarios are like, no, I can't really think of anything right now.
30:58
But other times it's like they immediately get started getting upset.
31:01
Like, yeah, my, my, my grandmother just got diagnosed with cancer.
31:04
Looks like she's terminal.
31:05
And you know, this, this is, you know, I'm just trying to make ends meet for my family
31:08
right now.
31:09
That's why I picked up a second shift for today, right?
31:11
And like they needed to unload that burden on somebody and all you did was said, yes,
31:16
Lord, I will ask them if I can pray for them.
31:19
So if you hear that little whisper, here's guy, that little bitty whisper, go talk to
31:23
that guy.
31:24
Cause you know what I could have done?
31:25
I could have said, I think that guy can bench more than me.
31:28
He's probably fine.
31:30
Yeah.
31:31
He looks good.
31:33
Like he doesn't look like he's in a medical emergency.
31:35
He, oh, he just needs to be a Lord.
31:37
I know you're telling me to go talk to him, but he looks like he could really use some
31:40
alone time to process his feelings and again, the trajectory of your life changed because
31:46
of obedience, not because I'm special, but because Jesus used an imperfect, you know,
31:51
God used an imperfect vessel to, to communicate with somebody in a way that they needed in
31:56
that moment.
31:57
Does that make sense?
31:58
Absolutely.
31:59
It's funny.
32:00
You just said about praying and we don't like praying for someone before a meal and
32:03
we don't have a way to measure like what that does.
32:06
My pastor was over at the house, we do marriage counseling every other week, just like preemptive
32:12
to make sure we're, we're doing the right things.
32:14
And we, we talked about this yesterday is like we, we were talking about suicides.
32:19
Like the transition need veterans cause we're kind of helping out with that.
32:23
It's like we hear about suicides, right?
32:25
We hear about like, the number I think going around is 22 a day, right?
32:29
22 suicides a day, but, but one thing we can't measure that I don't think we can measure
32:34
and that we never hear about is, how many times do we put out good word, the message
32:40
of God, positive vibes, great inspirational things that stop somebody from suicide?
32:47
We don't get that number.
32:48
I guarantee it's way more than 22.
32:51
I promise you, it is way more.
32:53
So those praying for someone, we don't know what it's going to do.
32:56
Man, that, that, so, and that's not our, it's not our job to know.
33:00
It's not even our business.
33:02
Like he'll take care of that, but just being obedient, doing the things that you're supposed
33:06
to do.
33:08
That's it.
33:09
Like that is 100% it is like it's just do the right thing and trust me, it's being carried
33:15
forth.
33:16
It's being carried on.
33:17
It's good.
33:18
Right.
33:19
And it goes back to mindset, which you've talked about a lot, but it's interesting you bring
33:21
up suicide because that's kind of what I wanted to get into next because in the Sierra chapter,
33:25
you have this quote.
33:26
And again, like I know you pretty well and I didn't know that you went through this.
33:29
So I'm glad you shared it.
33:30
But here's the quote.
33:31
My mind became consumed with the thoughts, with those thoughts.
33:34
And one day I decided that enough was enough for the first time in my life, I was ready
33:38
to quit.
33:39
I'd endured the toughest training and selection events that the military had to offer.
33:43
But the combined weight of my fears and stresses had me wanting to ring the bell on my life.
33:49
So any of you guys that know anything about buds, obviously, whenever you quit buds, you
33:52
ring the bell three times, you set your helmet down and you get out there, you go back to
33:56
wherever you're supposed to go.
33:58
And so in that chapter, you described the pistol that you were going to use.
34:01
You describe how it felt in your hand, the weight of it.
34:05
And almost as quickly as the thought of suicide entered your mind, you snapped to and made
34:11
the lifelong decision that you were never going to go back to that dark place.
34:15
And you give credit to Satan for kind of getting you to that point where you're you are sitting
34:19
on your bed.
34:20
You know, this is after, you know, the Christian campus is after you dedicating your life to
34:24
the crisis is after all that and you were still in the darkness and in that moment, Satan
34:29
was more worried about you than he ever has been because he hasn't had to worry about
34:33
you for most of your life because you were completely out of it.
34:36
You had taken yourself out of the spiritual realm and conversation.
34:39
So take us through with that a little bit because I've talked about suicide on this podcast
34:42
before.
34:43
I've talked about my own intellectual thoughts on suicide, not like emotional, but intellectually
34:48
like, man, would my family be better off if I wasn't here.
34:50
I've got all this life insurance money and all that.
34:53
And I know I'm not the only guy in this, you know, audience that deals with that.
34:56
I know I'm not the only guy that deals with those thoughts or will deal with it again
35:00
at some point.
35:01
So, so talk to those guys, but also just kind of talk through what that situation was like
35:05
for you.
35:06
Yeah, I was have relationship issues, PTSD, crap, sleep issues, kid issues, obviously,
35:14
not knowing what to do.
35:15
Just a very weird spot in my life.
35:19
I was a newfound Christian, but just like, it seemed like the stuff didn't get easier.
35:23
It got harder and I wasn't prepared.
35:25
It's like, it's like having a gun, but no ammunition.
35:28
Like I wouldn't go overseas without ammunition, body armor, my helmet, kind of efficient six
35:32
kind of pops up now, doesn't it?
35:35
It's just, I didn't have that stuff.
35:40
And that's someone's fault of my own.
35:41
I should have been, you know, training for it.
35:44
But I just, there I was sitting on my bed, I don't know why, how I got to my bed, but
35:47
I just had my, my sick 228 in my right hand resting on my leg, just looking at it side,
35:53
like a side profile.
35:55
And here to commit myself, making sure that I've got my fingers straight off the trigger
35:59
and it's pointing in a safe direction, right, got to do their safety rules.
36:01
Yeah.
36:02
I was about to take my life.
36:03
It's funny how that works.
36:04
And I just, I was like, yeah, this is it, like I'm, I can see now, and all these stats
36:12
are going in like, you don't want to do this.
36:13
Oh, it's easy.
36:14
And the ones we're saying, this is the way, this is the way it should be, like it's so
36:17
much better for everyone.
36:19
Those voices were totally taken out.
36:21
Are you sure about this?
36:22
What are you doing?
36:23
Put down the frickin' gun.
36:25
And I just snapped too, and I remember seeing like a, like a bird's eye view looking from
36:31
the sky down and just seeing my frickin' head blown open with blood everywhere, brain
36:35
matter everywhere and seeing my daughters coming in with their backpacks on their back,
36:40
opening the door and seeing their father lifeless in the, in the, in my bedroom.
36:48
And I was like, what am I frickin' doing?
36:50
Like, as soon as I saw this, like, like, snap to, like, whoa, put my frickin' gun down.
36:56
And I got, got my pre-workout shake and my frickin' gym bag and went to the gym and
37:01
I stayed there until my kids came home.
37:03
I, I, dude, I can't explain it.
37:05
It's never happened again.
37:07
It's never happened before, just in a very dark place.
37:11
And I guess the takeaway of that is like, I've always been the guy that like, why would
37:15
somebody do that?
37:16
Why would you do that?
37:17
Like, that's just weak.
37:18
And I found myself in that very situation and thankfully didn't follow through with it.
37:22
But I can see how people can get to that dark spot with just the overwhelming voices of
37:28
the, of the evil one, just frickin' boom, boom, boom, and not having, and it should've
37:35
never got to that point.
37:36
It should never got to that point, but it did.
37:38
And I still think about that, I'm like, make sure this never happens.
37:42
And so when I talk to other people that have those somewhat thoughts, I can empathize with
37:47
them very well because I get it.
37:49
I, I do get it, I do, unfortunately, I do get it.
37:53
But at the same time, it's fortunate that I can have that conversation because, you
37:57
know, if I'm, if I'm into drugs and I'm shooting, you know, frickin' heroin up, the person that's
38:01
gonna get me out and stop doing that is somebody that has been in the bottom barrel doing that
38:05
heroin and then this worked for them, they pulled themselves out.
38:09
So, you know, I'm not proud to say that, but it's the fact, it's the reality, it's the
38:16
transparency.
38:17
That's what happened.
38:18
And that was a tough one to put in the book, but I'm like, dude, I'm always about transparency.
38:22
I'm always about being real.
38:24
There's no way this is not going in that book.
38:26
Like, we got struggles, man.
38:28
I'm no different than the next guy.
38:29
I don't give a crap what title you put on someone.
38:31
It doesn't matter.
38:32
I'm human.
38:33
I've got issues.
38:34
I've got an enemy just like you.
38:36
Well, and it's, it's good that you put something like that in the book because that's one thing
38:40
whenever people read these war memoirs, you know, whether it's from this era of war or
38:44
any past eras of war, it's hard for civilians to put themselves in that headspace.
38:49
If they've never done something hard, if they've never put themselves through any type of like
38:51
selection or any type of training like that, it's hard for them to even fathom what it was
38:55
like being in that sand pit on Paris Islander or being in the sands of Coronado or being
38:59
in the ocean or, or being at war, all those different things.
39:02
And so you guys become like these, these superheroes, and there's kind of like this
39:06
hero worship.
39:07
But I know you, you've experienced that.
39:08
You have guys that are just kind of nut swingers that they're just like, Oh my gosh, anything,
39:11
yeah, anything that that a Navy SEAL does or says or his EDC is my EDC because, you know,
39:16
I'm, you know, I'm 20% seal now because I have the same everyday carry as Clint Emerson
39:20
or someone else like that.
39:21
And so I think that that's important for you guys to kind of let the facade down a little
39:25
bit to, to put the mass down a little bit and be like, no, I'm a dude.
39:30
I've done extraordinary things, but I'm ordinary in the fact that I'm a dude just like you're
39:34
a dude.
39:35
Absolutely.
39:36
And I can overcome in the same way that you can overcome.
39:38
So I'm glad that you put that in the book.
39:40
So we'll actually, this will be the last question I asked you on the book and then I had a couple
39:43
of other stuff, things before we get you out of here.
39:45
You go over this in chapter tango.
39:47
And so I feel like for me at least as I was reading through and knowing what I know about
39:51
you, I feel like this was a huge moment in your life.
39:53
So let me read the quote here from that chapter.
39:55
At some point I sat down with my dad and flat out asked him if he thought he'd done a good
39:59
job as a father.
40:01
I didn't ask the question in order to put him down or challenge him.
40:04
I asked it because I was struggling as a father and sought his guidance.
40:07
He didn't hesitate.
40:08
He simply said, no, I could see the sadness in his eyes for the record.
40:13
I think that on the whole he was a great father and I told him so, but he did have some shortcomings.
40:18
The very things that my dad had struggled with drinking wild behavior and toxic relationships
40:23
had all become part of my life.
40:25
I had become the very thing that I despised, failing where he had failed.
40:29
I made the decision that I had to break the cycle for the sake of my own kids.
40:34
I had to step up, had to do better.
40:37
So I think the first question I asked you about the book was about your father being
40:40
gone and some of the relationship struggles that he had and divorces and his strained
40:46
relationship with you, even though you still loved him and have dedicated yourself as his
40:51
son.
40:52
And to make a great life for yourself, almost to honor your father.
40:56
But talk to me about that because, man, that's a dramatic moment for a son to ask a father
41:01
that and for the father to respond in that way.
41:04
What happened after that conversation?
41:06
Because I'm sure you didn't just say no and you both moved on with your lives and high
41:09
five didn't kind of did your own thing.
41:11
Take me through all that.
41:12
Why did you ask him?
41:13
What does it cause you to change moving forward?
41:17
Yeah.
41:18
I'm bringing up memories, buddy.
41:25
Yeah.
41:26
He was just honest.
41:27
He's like, no, I immediately said, yeah, I screwed up a lot.
41:30
I did.
41:31
And my dad, it's always, you can always be traced back to it originally.
41:35
If you know, if we really want to break it down, Chuck on stylist, his parents were the
41:38
greatest with him.
41:39
His dad was an alcoholic, a lot of issues that I've learned now, you know, after trying
41:46
to dig in, no, he was, he was just, he was honest, maybe he's like, yeah, I could have
41:52
done so much better.
41:53
He's like, I, and I think I even asked the question, I was like, well, why don't you
41:57
do it now?
41:58
Like, why aren't you more engaged and I never really got an answer and I don't know what
42:03
the answer is.
42:04
And I think, I think he's more engaged than his father was.
42:07
So probably maybe in his mind, he thinks he's doing a kick butt job and it broke.
42:13
I'm not throwing my dad over the bus, I love my father.
42:17
It's funny, the first time we did wild and hard, I'm like, I have no father wounds, maybe
42:25
a couple.
42:27
But now he like, he was very, and I just like, I don't want my kids.
42:31
I don't want to, I don't want to view, I don't want my kids to view me like I view my father
42:35
in certain ways.
42:36
And I don't view my dad as a bad person, I just like think he needed some, some guidance
42:41
in the, in the fatherly realm, which I think all of us as fathers, we really want to break
42:45
it down.
42:46
We do need some guidance, we need wisdom.
42:47
We need to beef up this area where we're super strong over here, but super weak over
42:51
here.
42:52
And I saw my kids to feel that way and I'm still trying to do right as a father because
42:57
if we want to look at the crap that's going on in this country, it is fatherless, weak,
43:03
fatherless homes, right, the invisible father, the father might still come home, but they
43:07
think they're, they're checked out just like I came back from deploying the man.
43:11
I was physically there, I was mentally not there.
43:14
And that's, that's what I believe our homes are filled with across this nation.
43:18
I really do.
43:19
And there's some great fathers out there that are fricking money on the spot doing the right
43:22
thing.
43:23
I don't want to take away from those guys, but I would say the majority and I say there's
43:27
a confidence because I see it, we see it.
43:31
It's not, it's not there like it should be.
43:34
And I'm guilty.
43:35
I still need to like do better, do more, like hold myself accountable.
43:41
I talked to my wife about this all the time, like I need to do more.
43:44
Okay.
43:45
We need to do more one-on-ones.
43:46
We need to do more of this.
43:48
So I do try to change it, but it's man, it's just like it's not this overnight thing.
43:51
Ah, but perfect father.
43:53
It's hard.
43:54
It is hard.
43:55
It's very hard.
43:56
How do I deal with this situation?
43:57
Everyone's dealing with these situations, all these outside influence.
44:00
We do this without works for you, but maybe not for me.
44:03
It's a lot to take in, but it's, it's like what I always say is that we don't quit.
44:07
We keep working.
44:08
We, we get knocked down.
44:09
We miss that one shot three times in a row.
44:11
Be quiet.
44:12
I'm getting back up and I'm still moving through my obstacle because I'm all in period.
44:16
That's it.
44:17
And, and dads are kind of graded on a curve and they're graded with other dads in mind.
44:21
And that's one thing I think that guys should, should be, and I say this as a broad statement
44:26
because there are some dads that are absolutely evil that have done some horrific things to
44:29
their kids.
44:30
So most part, you need to give your dad the benefit of the doubt because for me, the things
44:34
that I haven't liked about my father and I love my dad, like he's my biggest fan, no
44:37
matter what I do, like he's always been there for me, but he lost his dad when he was 13
44:42
years old.
44:43
His dad was killed by a drunk driver.
44:44
And so right when he was learning how to become a man, you know, his dad was taken away
44:47
from him.
44:48
And so he taught me from the best of his ability, these manhood lessons, most of them that he
44:53
didn't teach me directly, he taught me indirectly.
44:55
And so what I'm trying to do now is take what I learned from my father and now I'm trying
44:58
to give direct lessons to my boys, and so that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt.
45:04
This is what a man is.
45:05
This is what is expected of a man.
45:06
This is what fathers should do.
45:08
This is what you will do one day if you want to be a good father, whereas my dad again
45:13
was very indirect with a lot of that stuff.
45:14
I'm going to be a little bit more intentional with everything, but you brought up something.
45:18
So again, congratulations on the book.
45:20
The guys, the unafraid will be in the show notes.
45:22
You can check out the book.
45:23
You can buy it.
45:24
The Amazon link will be there.
45:25
We'll be able to get that over to you.
45:27
You brought up fatherlessness.
45:28
So the stats, everybody knows on fatherlessness.
45:30
If father's not in the home, drug use goes up, grades go down, crime goes up, pregnancies
45:39
go up and like all these other things, it's bad for the most part.
45:43
But when I mean pregnancies, I mean, it's like little girls getting pregnant or little
45:46
guys getting, you know, girls pregnant and things like that outside of marriage, outside
45:50
of any type of, you know, ceremony or anything like that.
45:54
And even if dads just around, even if the dads crappy, it's always better, but it's,
45:59
it's usually 10 times better if the dad is involved and actively engaged in his kids'
46:04
lives.
46:05
And I think you're right.
46:06
Whenever we talk about these mass shootings, when we talk about these things, it's always
46:08
uninitiated men.
46:11
It's these little boys that decided one day that they're men now or they became men because
46:16
they can shave all of a sudden and they don't have power.
46:19
They don't have direction.
46:21
They don't have discernment.
46:22
And the way they get that power is by buying a firearm and the way they show, you know,
46:27
who they are and they show their strength to society is by shedding the blood of innocent
46:31
people.
46:32
And yes, there's some mental health issues that go into that and we do not deal with
46:34
mental health.
46:35
Well, SSRIs deal with that almost every single school shooter has been on some sort of antidepressant,
46:41
some sort of drug that has altered their brains.
46:43
But we have not seen an example of that all American family that went to church together
46:51
that the dad didn't have any skeletons in the closet.
46:53
He was, you know, doting on his boys and showing them how to do things and showing them how
46:56
to fix stuff.
46:57
And then that kid one day, this well-adjusted kid just snaps, goes and gets a firearm out
47:02
of the safe and then shoots up at school.
47:04
It's always a kid without a dad there.
47:06
And then you have these adults doing these things.
47:08
They're, you know, participating in game violence or drug violence.
47:11
These are un-initiated fathers that the gang became their father, you know, a saccario
47:16
became their father or someone else that was running drugs became their father.
47:20
Talk to me a little bit more about that because you spent a lot of your, you know, father,
47:24
fathering of your children gone and you're trying to make up for that on the back end.
47:28
But why is that so important to us?
47:29
Why do we need to focus so much more on that as a society?
47:33
We can just see where our society is going.
47:35
It's like we get this like, well, we're raising our kids, dude.
47:38
We're developing leaders.
47:39
We're developing the next generation of people that are continuing this to go on.
47:43
And we've got to pour into them.
47:45
And it's way more work and joy than I ever thought, like way more like, oh, like, I'll
47:53
take you to practice.
47:54
Like, okay, cool.
47:55
Are you getting down the level?
47:56
Are you having these conversation?
47:57
Are we talking about intangible things?
47:59
Are we talking about how we open the door for a woman?
48:03
Why do we do that exactly?
48:04
There's always a why, like, hey, do this.
48:07
Why?
48:08
You know, we like, because I said so, okay, no, okay, that's what we need to pause.
48:12
We need to have that conversation because we need these guys to like pass it on is schools
48:16
aren't teaching these intangibles, in my opinion.
48:18
I'm not seeing it from my kids that go to school.
48:21
We're definitely not seeing it with the, we watch the news or the stats, you know, that
48:25
we can judge things off of.
48:27
But there's just not a lot of it like how do we treat a woman?
48:31
What is a protector?
48:33
How are we having compassion yet we're still fierce, like, you know, John Eldridge uses
48:38
the Frickin Mr. Rogers, and then he shows, you know, Braveheart's character or gladiators
48:44
character or the Patriots character of like, they can still be, we can start that medium
48:48
like I'm compassionate for the week.
48:50
The people that are getting bullied for the females, but we still need to be fierce and
48:54
who's teaching our kids that?
48:56
If it ain't you, it's no one.
48:58
Actually, it's the guy down the street that's selling drugs, like you just said, it's the
49:02
guy that we're black marketing these frickin firearms to other gang bangers to go do whatever
49:06
they're going to do.
49:07
That's who it is.
49:08
I mean, I was just reading a book, I can't remember what it was, Jeffrey Dahmer's dad,
49:12
I think his name is Lydal, wrote a book about how he, it was like, why, how did this happen?
49:19
Jeffrey Dahmer's the one that I think 17 dead, like mutilated them, but they eat their body,
49:23
just crazy dude.
49:24
And he's like, I didn't father my kid, he's like, I was there, but I was not there.
49:29
Like he admits this.
49:30
He tells a whole book about how he's taking responsibility for it for this.
49:36
He's like, I believe it is my fault for not stepping up and doing this stuff.
49:40
And dude, I think the shooter, uh, the one that just happened July 4th was the same thing
49:47
like had no father or, or some of us, but there's always a, there's always a story like
49:51
80% of inner city kids are out of wedlock 80% there ain't, there's no dad.
49:58
And you want to, and like you just said, where do they go to find dad?
50:02
We're all looking for that male figure and they go to the gangs because they feel a part
50:06
of something.
50:07
They're getting direction.
50:08
It's not the greatest direction, at least a other crime in bodily injury to other people,
50:12
but they're going to find it somewhere.
50:14
Like you just said a firearm and they're going to use that evil for bad.
50:18
So they're going to find it somewhere.
50:20
So it's either you give it to them the right way or they're going to get it the bad way
50:23
and you're going to start scratching your head.
50:25
How did this happen?
50:26
Good.
50:27
Look at the mirror.
50:28
Yeah, absolutely.
50:29
And something you said early in the podcast is like how you try to be the apple and your
50:31
father's eye.
50:32
Like that was something that Eldridge talked about while at heart and you try to prove
50:35
yourself one way that I heard it described recently, Jordan Peterson was talking about
50:38
in a podcast or an interview is competence.
50:41
You're trying to prove your competence in something.
50:43
And let's say you weren't a kid, you know, you weren't a good athlete.
50:47
You're not a good student.
50:48
You're kind of a wallflower.
50:50
You know, you're maybe you're an involuntary celibate like you don't have very much luck
50:54
with the ladies, which I'm describing a lot of these school shooters.
50:57
And it's like, this is something that they can be competent at.
51:00
They can show the world how strong and competent they are all in one dramatic moment.
51:04
Right?
51:05
And if they die at the end of it, in their mind, it's even better, right?
51:09
It doubles the impact because then they don't have to deal with the consequences on the
51:13
back end.
51:14
One thing I wanted to ask you as well, Eddie, is just in general about manhood and manliness
51:19
inside the church.
51:20
I think this has to do with the fatherlessness issue and those types of things.
51:24
But yeah, I know.
51:25
Yeah.
51:26
You're smart.
51:27
And I think I know where you're going to go because you know where I'm going to go with
51:28
this.
51:29
But obviously, you know, part of the reason why I've done so much in this in this area is
51:31
because I feel like those guys that are rough around the edges, those typically masculine
51:35
dudes walk into the church, they see a bunch of soft dudes and they're like, yeah, this
51:38
isn't my crowd.
51:39
This isn't my, these aren't my people.
51:40
I'm going to go to the range.
51:41
I'm going to go to the bar.
51:42
I'm going to go do this.
51:43
Or I'm going to go do that.
51:44
Yeah, exactly.
51:45
You're raising your hand.
51:46
And so for you, you check a lot of the typical masculine boxes, right?
51:52
You're in the military.
51:53
You're an elite level warrior.
51:55
You lift weights.
51:56
You have tattoos.
51:57
You know how to shoot like, you know, good luck with the women like you, you drink like
52:01
all those typical things like the caricature masculinity things, you check the boxes.
52:06
But I know that you're a guy that would say, no, those things don't make me a man.
52:10
Those are just things that I do, but you wouldn't say I'm a man because I do all these cool
52:15
things.
52:16
I eat meat.
52:17
I drive four wheel drive trucks.
52:18
I like beef jerky.
52:19
That type of thing.
52:20
But talk to me a little bit about that because there's still a struggle and I'm doing everything
52:23
I can to swing the pendulum to where churches focus on the men.
52:28
They don't just tolerate them. They don't just deal with the women and children and hope
52:32
the guy shows up, but making sure that they create from the inside out this atmosphere
52:37
where men know that they are not just welcome, but that they are needed.
52:41
So go with that wherever you want to go.
52:43
Yeah, I think there's this is such a long conversation.
52:46
There's so many aspects that go into this.
52:48
It kind of goes back out women are treated men because we want that respect and we don't
52:52
get that respect.
52:53
We feel belittled in that boldness just kind of leaves, which it needs to be there.
52:58
So I always, if I'm asked what a man is my, what I think is a, it's the crossroads of
53:04
compassion and fierceness is I need to, when it is time to help, what I mentioned, help
53:11
the week to be there for my daughters, to be there for my wife.
53:15
I need to have compassion.
53:17
I need to empathize.
53:18
I need to control my emotions.
53:20
I need to be there for them.
53:22
It doesn't mean I'm a weak being.
53:23
It doesn't mean I can't fricking go in two seconds to go crazy.
53:27
We can look at Jesus walking to the temple, flipping over tables.
53:30
Two seconds later, he's picking up doves.
53:32
I mean, that just shows it right.
53:34
It's beautiful.
53:35
I am fierce, but at the same time when it's time to go back, you're fluctuating.
53:40
I think we fluctuate, but I think a lot of us are missing that fierce piece.
53:44
We're afraid to protect.
53:45
We coward down.
53:46
There was a, and here's an example, it might be the greatest example, but it's an example.
53:51
When Trump and Biden were running, they did a poll 63% of Americans were afraid to give
53:57
their political affiliation, because they're afraid of what the other side is going to say.
54:03
What is that about?
54:06
Why do you care 63%?
54:11
We have some weak people.
54:13
I'm sorry.
54:14
We have some weak people that need to find their, okay, we have some strong people that
54:18
are very weak that need to find their strength.
54:20
Even simple, that's all it is to it.
54:22
People are afraid to even do a post, oh, they'll say this.
54:27
They're afraid to go try jujitsu, oh my gosh, I'm going to get, dude, get out of your comfort
54:33
zone.
54:34
We can see it as society where we're flashing rainbows, we're flashing, you shouldn't do
54:40
this.
54:41
You should be like this or you're telling us how we should be.
54:44
That's not how you're made, bro.
54:46
That's not how you're fricking made.
54:48
You're created to be the hero of your story.
54:49
Go back to John Elgridge and you were created to be a warrior.
54:53
We are a warrior.
54:54
Warriors don't mean you just go through the crowd with battle axes and start taking off
54:58
heads.
54:59
Now, there's a time for that, but there's also a time where you're still a warrior for
55:02
your family.
55:03
You're being present.
55:05
You're making sure they get what they're need, both like you said, T-I-M-E, right?
55:10
Getting that time, they're getting, you're providing, you're doing all those things and
55:14
yes, it's a big job.
55:16
Yes, it's overwhelming.
55:17
But guess what?
55:18
It's the only one that you're really created for is being there and that's it.
55:23
And I think the church, if I could be completely honest, is extremely weak when it comes to
55:29
that.
55:30
I've noticed that as I go through church for the years and the years, we always talk about
55:34
love.
55:35
We talk about hope.
55:36
We talk about forgiveness.
55:37
We talk about grace and all those things are very wonderful.
55:40
Those are great things.
55:41
Those are amazing.
55:42
They're extremely important, but we're missing the fierceness.
55:45
We need to stand up.
55:46
We have an enemy.
55:47
There's a spiritual warfare.
55:48
You need to be proactive.
55:50
You need to fight.
55:51
You need to be on guard.
55:52
Shields up.
55:53
Swords drawn.
55:54
We're missing that.
55:56
We're missing that.
55:57
Somebody says something against your faith, you're afraid to talk back because you're afraid
56:02
of a confrontation?
56:04
Who are you?
56:05
What is this?
56:06
So, yes, I don't agree 100% with Christianity now.
56:09
Is it all like that?
56:10
No, absolutely not.
56:11
But the majority, I would say, probably so, yeah.
56:14
And that's why I'm done to life equipping men to push back darkness.
56:17
That's why we're here.
56:18
And if you don't have that boldness, you won't be able to push back against the darkness.
56:22
If you have not trained to recognize when darkness is around you, you will not be ready
56:25
to respond to it.
56:27
And also, it's this idea, like you kind of brought it up with compassion and fierceness.
56:31
It's the Tinder warrior mindset, right?
56:33
It's meekness rightly described.
56:35
So, me people think of meek as weak and I've talked about this a lot.
56:38
Meekness is having basically the capability of violence and strength.
56:44
But you keep it under voluntary control.
56:46
It's knowing how to use a sword, but leaving it sheet until you need to pull it out of
56:50
the sheath.
56:51
It's this overwhelming focus on the Lamb of God and completely ignoring the line of
56:55
Judah.
56:56
People get really uncomfortable when I talk about that.
56:57
They're like, "Oh, you want to ignore the Lamb of God?"
56:59
I was like, "No, I want people to understand both because you don't get a full grasp of
57:03
who Jesus Christ is.
57:05
If you only look at him as Jesus Christ, meek and mild, cool, hippie."
57:08
That's all true.
57:09
That's all true.
57:10
That's all true.
57:11
Right, we need people to understand the line of Judah.
57:15
We need to understand that, yes, he came full of grace and truth.
57:18
That truth piece is the part that really, really hurts our feelings, right?
57:21
And it's like, "Well, there is no truth.
57:24
There's my truth and your truth, right?
57:25
Like, "Am I doing this right?
57:27
Do I get my woke cookies?"
57:28
And so that's kind of the result of things that a lot of us kind of put ourselves in.
57:32
But Eddie, we've talked about a lot of this conversation.
57:34
We've gone everywhere.
57:35
Again, the book is amazing, but I do want to give you a little bit of a time here to
57:38
have your own little commercial.
57:40
You've got a lot of things going on that my audience would potentially be interested
57:43
in.
57:44
So I know you've got a lot of different businesses.
57:46
So tell us what you got going on.
57:47
Kyle, there's so much right now.
57:48
I have no clue.
57:49
I know.
57:50
We've got a risk mitigation company called Contilla Group that we do customer security
57:57
for individuals, corporations, domestic and internationally.
58:01
So we have that going on.
58:02
That's been going on for about 13 years now.
58:05
We have the Unafraid Brand, which is at EddiePenny.com, so we got to store some gear and kind of
58:10
just fill in people with like faith.
58:14
It's called the Den.
58:16
Faith workouts.
58:18
I think my pillars are faith, family, fitness and fun.
58:22
I think we need to have those four always to keep things and put those layers of freaking
58:28
protection around us as we're going through life.
58:31
So we have a thing called the Den and you subscribe to that and we talk about stuff.
58:35
People kind of jump in when they want to put your workouts up there.
58:40
Nutrition.
58:41
Talk about faith.
58:42
It's kind of like I hate saying this, but like a safe place like talk about things like
58:46
like minded individuals.
58:48
This is about them bothering me.
58:49
I need this or like, Hey, here's a challenge.
58:51
Let's do this challenge or somebody I need to be held accountable.
58:54
I want to lose 20 pounds, you know, in the next two years or whatever it is.
58:58
Okay, cool.
58:59
Let's go up your workouts.
59:00
Let's check them out.
59:01
Let's see what we got.
59:02
Hey, try this.
59:03
Builds around each other to help each other out and then got the unafraid podcast with
59:08
my co-author Keith Wood.
59:10
That's awesome.
59:11
Got a new it's funny.
59:12
You're talking about concealed care.
59:13
We've got a new EDC one coming out.
59:16
I think next week or the week after and then they got the pennies podcast with my wife.
59:21
So we do a podcast with her and that's like, that is such great bonding time.
59:25
Love that.
59:26
And then I'm going to start.
59:28
We're starting on our next book, which is going to be a mindset book.
59:31
So it's good.
59:32
You got a lot of stuff going, man, it's fun.
59:34
So you're bored.
59:35
You don't really have a whole lot of things to do.
59:37
Like you're just kind of sitting around, that wins my next Jiu Jitsu practice.
59:40
But yeah.
59:41
And even on the outside.
59:42
Yeah, you've got gear on there.
59:43
Look, my, my pins running out of ink and you got a tactical pin on your website.
59:47
So not only could you write with it, you could stab somebody.
59:50
You can take a window out if you're drowning or something like that.
59:53
So you got a lot of gear in there, but Eddie, again, as always, I appreciate you coming
59:57
on the show.
59:58
You know that you've always got an open invitation to come on here and talk about whatever you
1:00:01
want to.
1:00:02
But that is all for me.
1:00:03
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:00:04
Nobody.
1:00:05
I appreciate it.
1:00:06
It was freaking awesome.
1:00:07
And I dig the lion behind your head right there.
1:00:08
That frickin is awesome.
1:00:09
I love it.
1:00:10
Always keeping me company, baby.
1:00:12
All right.
1:00:13
Any penny.
1:00:14
Thank you for coming on a dog to life and man's podcast.
1:00:15
Hey, Kyle.
1:00:16
There you go.
1:00:17
Guys.
1:00:18
I hope you enjoyed the second last part of this interview with Eddie Penny.
1:00:20
But before I let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
1:00:23
Add on to life.
1:00:24
Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual mental
1:00:28
and physical resilience and guys do not forget to support the sponsor of today.
1:00:31
Show that is Casey cattle company.
1:00:33
Go to kc cattle company dot com.
1:00:34
That's kc cattle company dot com and use the promo Kyle to get 15% off your order again.
1:00:39
That's the promo code.
1:00:40
It's just my first name.
1:00:41
Kyle, that's kyle for 15% off of your order at kc cattle company dot com.
1:00:46
So again, the link's just like yesterday.
1:00:48
We've got a link to his book where you can go to Amazon and get the hardcover version
1:00:52
of unafraid.
1:00:53
You can also get a couple of other versions there.
1:00:54
I've got a link to Eddie's website a link to contingent groups website.
1:00:58
And then I've also got a link to his other appearances on this show.
1:01:00
All right, guys.
1:01:01
Thanks so much for listening to the show.
1:01:02
We do appreciate it.
1:01:03
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe rate and leave us a positive five
1:01:06
star review.
1:01:07
If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast to shoot me an email to
1:01:10
info@undontanotlife, that's i n f o at undontanotlife, follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook
1:01:15
and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content
1:01:19
like this coming your way.
1:01:20
Just go to www dot undontanotlife.
1:01:22
And as always, we want to thank the band August Burns read for allowing us to use their music
1:01:25
for our content.
1:01:26
The music on this podcast is our song, cutting the ties, which is off their 10th anniversary
1:01:30
re recording of their album leveler.
1:01:32
The links are in the description.
1:01:33
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
1:01:35
Remember keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:01:42
You're seeking the Lion of Judah.
1:02:12
Thank you.