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0:30
This is Undaunted Life a Man's Podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
0:52
Our guys today, we got a special guest on the podcast. They returned guests on the podcast,
0:55
the one and only Eddie Penny. He is a retired Navy SEAL. He spent 12 years in the SEAL teams
1:00
and six of those was with the Naval Special Warfare Development Group. Before that, he was
1:04
in the United States Marine Corps as an infantryman and also an urban terrain instructor. He's also
1:09
the CEO and founder of Contingent Group, which was founded in 2013. They are a worldwide risk
1:14
mitigation, security consulting and executive asset protection company. They've been around
1:19
for a long time doing great, great work. He's also the creator of the Unafraid Mindset and that has
1:24
led him really to his latest accomplishment, which is being the author of a brand new book
1:29
out right now. It's his autobiography called Unafraid. But most importantly, he is the first
1:35
ever guest of Undaunted Life a Man's Podcast. Of all the things that he has done his life and
1:41
his career, that is the number one thing above all else that is higher on his mantle than any
1:45
other accomplishment, obviously. So if you go all the way back to episode 100 of this podcast,
1:50
he was the very, very first guest. And then he came back on during our botching Afghanistan
1:54
story. So what we're going to be doing are our little series we did on the botching of Afghanistan
1:58
last summer. But what we're going to be doing with this interview is we spent a lot of time
2:01
talking to Eddie about a lot of different subjects. And we're going to break this up into two parts.
2:05
Okay, because I know some of you guys, you know, you look at a podcast, like, oh, that's going to be
2:08
like two, two and a half hours long. I don't know if I have time for that. So we're going to break
2:11
it up and also to give you a little bit more time to kind of engage with the content. But in part one,
2:16
the one you're about to listen to, we're going to get into some subjects that are outside the book.
2:19
So we're going to talk about the rise of mass shootings, I suppose it rides the mass shootings,
2:22
but also just having situational awareness. Why after the age of 40, he decided he wanted to
2:27
start as a white belt in jujitsu and also to train a little bit of Muay Thai and, you know, kind of
2:31
what it looks like there, but also kind of this diversity, equity and inclusion focus in the United
2:36
States military. But then we're going to get into the book. So we're going to talk about why he wrote
2:39
the autobiography and then we're going to get into a lot of stuff in the book, you know, his
2:42
relationship with his father and how that affected his adult relationships, you know, why he joined
2:45
the military when he feels like he became a man, a great story when he feels like he knew the moment
2:50
he became a man and how missing a single long range shot while in the United States Marine Corps
2:55
literally changed the trajectory of his entire life. Why he knew he wouldn't quit whenever he got
3:00
to buds where he was on 9/11. The strain his job had on his wife and children. We get into a lot
3:06
of that. We get into the green team screening he went through. We even get into his first kill.
3:10
And that's how we're going to wrap up today's episode is his first kill and his overall
3:14
relationship with killing. But before we get to that interview, I do want to go ahead and make
3:18
you guys aware of a new sponsor that we have for the show. And that is Kansas City cattle company.
3:23
Now guys, there are a lot of meat delivery subscription services out there, like a ton of
3:28
them. And you've heard a lot advertised on a lot of different podcasts, but there is currently
3:32
only one of them. That is United States military veteran owned, United States military veteran
3:38
operated, and all of the beef chicken import products that they produce and that they sell
3:44
are made here and produced here in the United States. The only company that does that is Kansas
3:50
City cattle company. So this company specializes in wagyu beef. And so before I kind of came across
3:55
this company, I had heard of wagyu beef and I knew it was kind of like this fancy thing that you know,
4:00
it was, you know, this really amazing cut of B, but it's like, I was never really around that,
4:04
especially not growing up. But I had never tried it before I came across Kansas City
4:08
cattle company or Casey cattle company. So if you don't know this, because I didn't know this,
4:11
I had to learn it wagyu beef, it's a particular breed of cattle that is known for its mutations
4:16
that allow for like 10 times the amount of intramuscular fat. So what does that even mean? That means
4:22
you're going to have way more marbling on the meat. So if you know anything about stakes,
4:27
you know that if you have a good marble on the steak, that's going to lead to an unbelievable
4:31
taste. And so they sent me some stuff before we kind of set up this this whole advertising thing.
4:36
And they sent me my favorite steak that I've that I've ever had my favorite cut of steak,
4:40
which is a bone in ribeye. And so here I am for like a few days beforehand, I'm like, okay,
4:45
kind of getting myself pumped up because it's like, you don't want to mess up the steak.
4:48
It's a fancy piece of meat. Look at all that marbling. You can't jack it up. And so I literally spent
4:52
days kind of preparing what I was going to do. And so this is how I cook my steak. So basically
4:56
what I do is I get a cast iron skillet. I get as hot as it can possibly be about an hour before
5:01
I put the steak on, you know, I'll take it out of the refrigerator and I'll put it on the countertop.
5:04
I'll cover that in coarse salt, not regular salt, not table salt, but coarse salt and
5:09
cracked pepper like black pepper and maybe some garlic powder, but I didn't do that on this particular
5:14
one. Let it get to room temperature. I get that cast iron skillet as hot as it can go. I put oil
5:18
in there. So you can do avocado oil or olive oil or something like that. And then I see
5:22
your both sides for like 30 or 45 seconds. Right. And so that really gets that that sear, that initial
5:28
sear on either sides, then I turn the heat down to kind of like medium heat or something like that.
5:33
Throw a ton of butter in in the pan, throw a little bit of garlic in there. If you have time,
5:38
you can throw that in there as well or other, you know, herbals or whatever, things like that.
5:41
And then basically I will kind of flip it whenever it wherever it's necessary, but I'll be like
5:46
basing it with the butter inside of there. And I took it off and I cooked it perfectly. I mean,
5:51
guys, I was so nervous because I have a bad meat thermometer. I need a Thermapin or Therapin or whatever,
5:56
but the one I have is that great. But I took it off and it was a perfect rare medium rare,
6:01
but the outside was crispy. And when I took the very, very first bite of this thing, I was like,
6:05
Oh, okay. That's what everyone's talking about when they're talking about wagyu beef steaks.
6:12
And again, it was my favorite steak cut, but I mean, it was just unbelievably buttery and
6:17
smoky. And it just, it was a perfect steak. And I'm so, so glad they sent it my way. And I want you
6:22
guys to make sure that you can go out and try their products. So we set up this deal. I'm so
6:26
glad to bring it to you guys. So if you go to Casey cattle company.com. Okay, that's Casey cattle
6:32
company.com like Kansas City Casey cattle company.com use the promo code Kyle to get 15% off of your
6:39
order. Again, that promo code is just my first name Kyle. That's K Y L E for 15% off of your order
6:45
at Casey cattle company.com. All right, guys, that has been a long enough intro. I've kept
6:50
Eddie Penny from you guys too long as it is. So we're not going to keep him from you any longer.
6:54
So without further ado, let's get into it. Eddie Penny, welcome back to undaunted life of man's
6:59
podcast. Thanks Kyle. I appreciate a man. Great to be here again. Dude, third time on this show,
7:05
like I feel like I'm getting the most out of the package deal I bought from you years and years
7:10
ago, because you and I were just talking about it. Like you and I have been friends for over a
7:14
decade at this point, but you've, I, you, we've only ever been in the same place once. Like in our
7:19
entire life, like it's crazy. That's crazy. I'm so thankful for your friendship. And we'll get into
7:25
way later in this podcast. We got a lot of stuff to, to take care of. I appreciate you
7:29
sport in the hat. That is a great look on you. I know you're the flat bill hat guy. So I appreciate
7:34
your sport. One of these day I'll have to pick up one of your shirts on the next podcast when we
7:39
have you on I'm wearing your swag as well. But we're having you on today because you've done
7:43
something really incredible. You've written a book, which I think you're the first Navy SEAL
7:48
to actually do that to actually write a book. So that that's a really great, you know, feather
7:51
you can put in your cap. But before we get into that, there's a lot of topics that I think are
7:55
important that I think you can give us a unique perspective on. And the first one is what we're
8:00
seeing now with a lot of these mass shootings. Obviously, we talked about the one that happened
8:03
in Buffalo, the most sensational of all of them in a negative way is the one that happened in
8:08
Uvaldi. We just had one recently in Chicago, you know, one prominent one in Chicago, because it was
8:15
a white guy that did it and he shot white people. But you know, they don't really care about the
8:18
people that are shot every weekend in that city. Talk about the other 70 that happened that same
8:22
weekend. Yeah, absolutely. The ones that didn't fit a particular narrative. And we've got a lot
8:27
to cover today. So we can only do kind of service level stuff. But I know you've done some training,
8:30
you've trained civilians on active shooter situations on situational awareness. And you've
8:35
worked with fortune 500 companies and you've done a lot of stuff in that area. But I'm seeing a lot
8:40
of people even on the pro gun side, even on the Christian side that are reacting negatively to
8:45
these things. They're starting to talk about the firearms a whole lot more than they are talking
8:49
about the evil that's going on in the hearts of the people that are perpetrating these crimes.
8:52
I did a debate recently with a pacifist anti gun Christian leader. And this is what he goes around
8:58
the country, convincing law abiding citizens to turn their firearms in so that they can be
9:03
destroyed right in front of them, basically making these people less safe, making them targets.
9:07
But for you from your history and from your background, what are your overall thoughts on
9:12
what we're seeing? Because by statistically speaking, we're not having a major uptick
9:18
in these shootings. They're just getting more coverage in the media. So take that wherever you
9:21
want to go with it. Yeah, obviously, I mean, anytime I hear like Alex, the gun's fault, it's a gun
9:27
fault. It's really it's just it's almost it's just mind boggling. It's just like, it's the car's fault
9:32
that I was texting and driving and I happened to hit a cyclist, you know, riding on it's it's not
9:37
the car's fault. It's your fault. And it's the it's the operator of the firearm, whatever it is,
9:42
because we can go to any other countries, our countries look at knives, look at blunt objects,
9:46
look at our fists, our feet, do we take away our fists then? I mean, what do we do? We take away
9:51
all the pills, other, all the other things that cause death. A gun is nothing but a paperweight.
9:57
That's it. Until it gets behind somebody that's either good or evil. And if you start taking away
10:03
the good guys, evil will dominate. And you just got to look at certain cities to see this on full.
10:09
We mentioned Chicago, they have some very strict gun laws, very strict gun laws,
10:14
some of the strictest in the country. And I believe them LA and New York City have the most
10:19
crime because it's the bad guys running rampant. Good guys can't protect themselves. Right. And
10:24
are you going to stop all school school shootings, which is the top that we started this conversation
10:28
on? Absolutely not. You're not. But instead of having 14 deaths, maybe with a good guy with a gun,
10:34
we only have two deaths. That's still like not okay. That still sucks. But that's called reality.
10:40
That is that is the reality of a you will definitely deter and delay certain deaths from happening
10:46
by having good guys with it, which particular and it doesn't come down to the gun, then training,
10:52
protocols, policy, like there's so many things that go into it that really don't cost a lot of
10:57
money. It's just really, you know, filling that brain up with this stuff that people need to know.
11:01
But yeah, it's not the gun's fault. That is the most that is the dumbest thing I think I've ever
11:06
heard. I've heard a lot of dumb things. That's pretty dumb. Well, what's funny is it is it is a lack
11:12
of reality. These people have this this really warped sense of evil and people. They just assume
11:17
if they close their eyes and plug their ears that the evil will go away and won't exist anymore.
11:22
And like, that's a point that I brought up in that debate. I pulled out my BCM rifle,
11:27
I put a 30 round magazine in it and I ran it and I left it on safety and I set it down in front of
11:31
me and I said, let's see if any point during this conversation, if this rifle will jump up and get
11:36
any of us like we'll do anything. And it's like, you're absolutely right. Like, one of the questions
11:40
was, should Christians own deadly weapons? And I'm like, you know, trying not to sound like Jean
11:44
Claude Van Dam or Steven Seagal, but it's like, my hands are deadly weapons because more people
11:49
are killed with hands, feet and fists than our rifles every single year by like 50%, you know,
11:55
over that. And so or McDonald's, right? I mean, people are killed in any number of ways. Like,
12:01
they're just as many people that die from falling off ladders, almost as people that are killed
12:06
with rifles. But we try to demonize this thing, which is absolutely just a tool. And so to go from,
12:11
you know, a really serious situation to slightly less serious, you know, kind of talking about,
12:16
you know, your hands and feet being weapons. One thing that's really interesting about you,
12:19
which kind of, you know, shows your ability to kind of humble yourself, is you started training
12:24
Jiu Jitsu in the Ghee and Muay Thai. And I think you started after your 40th birthday, right? And
12:29
you just recently got your blue belt and Jiu Jitsu. So congratulations on that. That is a huge deal.
12:34
Don't get the blue belt blues. Keep things going. Keep things like don't get up like I won't,
12:39
I won't. Blue belts aren't dangerous. Purple belts and above that. That's when you really
12:44
start understanding things. It's kind of like what Jaco says, he's like, you know, a purple belt's
12:47
not going to get whipped in a street fight, unless it's buy another purple belt or a brown belt or
12:51
a black belt or something like that. So for you kind of explain that to me, because you had nothing
12:55
to prove, you have nothing to prove physically. Like I know you've had some injuries, but like,
12:59
you're you're a good, like you're a physical guy, you're an athletic guy, all those things. And
13:04
you've proven that for multiple decades, why get into something that basically puts you back on step
13:09
one? I like goals. I like competitions. I like going for something, right? Like striving for that
13:17
thing that that that goal and you know, accomplishing the task to get there. And Jiu Jitsu was one of
13:22
them. It's like, man, there's a lot of guys talked about it. Why don't you and I had buddies all
13:26
that I always would go gravitate towards the weights. And I did, I did some MMA stuff for a
13:31
couple years, but then it left for about 10 to 15 years and then started going just started going
13:37
back. I was like, man, I'll do it. I started with boxing. I was starting to feel good getting that
13:40
blood flow to the brain. You know, that runner's high just started feeling so good. Like, and I'm
13:45
not a big cardio guy. I don't I'm not a fan of cardio. I'm not to be honest with you. But if I'm
13:51
going to do some kind of cardio vascular training, I want to learn while I'm doing it. And self-defense
13:56
obviously is that answer. So started with boxing kind of graduated to Muay Thai a little bit and
14:02
other striking. And then I was like, man, I got to like my strike my striking coach is like, dude,
14:06
you got to try Jiu Jitsu. And I was what you just said, like, I don't want to go back. I don't want
14:10
to get humbled by pride. And I was like, dude, you talk mindset all the time. You've got this
14:16
unafraid thing you like you. I had this conversation to self talk like Eddie be quiet and go do it.
14:23
Right. And it's been amazing. And I'm so glad I did it. And that great people
14:28
filmed that camaraderie void that I missed from the from the team. So the guys in my gym kind of
14:33
kind of feel that that brotherhood piece met great people. And dude, it's a lot of fun. Like,
14:39
yes, I had the old injuries. I've got a lot of issues. But you just kind of change your game to
14:44
to that, whatever it is. And it's been awesome, man. You know the deal. You know the deal.
14:49
Dude, I do. It's something that I talk about often people get tired of it. But I'm like,
14:53
you don't understand it until you try it. And it's like, I tell people don't don't just try one
14:57
class. Go until you can submit somebody that's on your level physically and then determine what
15:03
it's like from there. Because that first time you take someone's back, you know, you put in a,
15:07
you know, body triangle, and then you sink in a rear naked choke and they tap. It's like in that
15:11
moment, you realize if this was a real situation, if this was a real kinetic situation, that fights
15:19
over and you're the one that ended it. And that life of that person might be over and you would
15:23
have been the one that ended it. And like, but again, like that, that's kind of a little bit too
15:26
carnal for some people. But it's like, dude, it's reality, though, actual reality, like reality is
15:32
there are bad guys out there, 70 deaths in Chicago this past weekend. It's out there. Like, it's
15:37
crazy. Like, guys, the chances of it happened are very slim. But like, I gave a speech this a
15:43
couple of weekends ago. And I was like, no victim ever woke up and woke up and said,
15:48
today I will be the victim. It just happens. You got to be ready to go. So what does that mean?
15:53
You carry a firearm, you're trained in it, Jiu Jitsu, striking, all that, all these things go into
15:58
them, man. Well, Eddie, you fall to the level of your training. Obviously, you've heard that before,
16:01
but I know some concealed carry guys that won't learn how to fight with their hands and feet. They're
16:06
like, I got a gun. Why would I need to do that? And it's like, because not every situation requires
16:11
you to pull your pistol and point it at somebody and potentially in their life, if you can end a
16:15
threat by passing the guy out cold and then taken off running, or holding them down in neon belly
16:21
and still help arrives, or immobilizing them with some sort of a heel hook, or breaking their arm
16:27
or something like that, which basically would take away their will to fight. There's a lot of
16:31
different scenarios that that would age you and benefit you. And it's also just a confidence thing,
16:36
knowing that when you walk into a place, it's like, if something pops off and gets a little bit
16:40
crazy, I've got the required tools. I've got the skill sets physically. You know, Pat McNamara talks
16:46
about the combat chassis like my chassis is ready to go. If I need to run away from this situation,
16:51
or if I need to get involved physically. So I think that's a very important thing. So I
16:55
commend you on doing that. I know it's not an easy path and it's not easy for anybody to try.
16:59
Yes, is people don't realize like, Oh, I just carry a gun. Like you just said, I carry a gun.
17:04
Okay, you shoot somebody or pulled out and don't shoot somebody. You're going to court, brother.
17:09
Yeah, I could be jail time, especially some jurisdictions. Goodbye. They're not very
17:13
gun friendly, which is ridiculous. But like, yeah, if you can use the lowest means, whatever to
17:19
apprehend or take out the threat, I would absolutely do that. Like a gun is a last resort. Yeah,
17:26
plain and simple, man, potentially tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees,
17:31
potentially a jail stay potentially, you know,
17:33
Oh my gosh, like how written house like, can you imagine that guy? Like dude, dude, uh,
17:39
yeah, it's next level. So so I think I think you and I are certainly on the same page. We could
17:44
talk for the next two hours about that, but we have a lot more ground to cover. But before we
17:47
get into your book, which I want to spend a lot of time with, I do want to talk to you from your
17:50
perspective, because something that I've heard and I know I get a lot of crap for talking to seals
17:53
on the show. Here's the thing, guys, I'll talk to anybody. I'll talk to Delta. I'll talk to SF
17:57
like the seals are the ones writing books. So if you want to come on the show, write a book and
18:00
we'll make it happen. But the thing about it is I'm hearing from a lot of us specifically spec ops
18:05
guys is something along the lines of, you know, when I had Clint Emerson on here recently, he was
18:09
like, man, I'm glad I got out of the military when I did. And it's mainly because of what we see
18:14
with the failure upward of a lot of the generals, the situation that we saw with Afghanistan,
18:18
which we've already had you want to talk about that, you know, what we're seeing in Ukraine,
18:21
this kind of proxy war thing with Russia. But this overall wokeness in the military. We just got
18:26
reports this month that the all branches of the military are way below their recruiting goals for
18:33
the year, because here they are. Yeah, they're advertising, you know, gay weddings and two mommies
18:39
and all these different things and what they're not getting. They're not getting the good old
18:42
country boy from that just loves his country and loves the American flag and wants to defend her
18:47
still today. Right. And then they're just shocked. When these guys are like, man, I don't really want
18:52
to go to the academy, man, I don't really want to go the the rotsi route. I don't really want to do
18:56
that. Like I want to do something else. I guess I'll be an entrepreneur. I guess I'll do something
19:00
else. But for you, talk to me a little bit about that because from my perspective, it seems like
19:05
the United States military is very, very focused on diversity, equity and inclusion and wokeness
19:10
and not as much on lethality anymore, which is ridiculous because it's a very small percentage
19:15
that gives a crap about this. They're just they got the loud voice in the room. And right now we're
19:19
in a society that loudest voice in the room is going to prevail. And that voice is those pushing
19:25
what you just talked about. It's ridiculous. We're getting away from like manhood, like this is what
19:30
it means to support this country and fight for the citizens of this amazing nation. And we're going
19:35
to it. You're forcing people here, you're forcing them to do things that a very large, I mean, a
19:41
gigantic of the majority doesn't want to do or doesn't believe in they're going to maintain that
19:45
paycheck or do something they really believe in. And go back to like, I think we're trying to go
19:50
into like should people go into the military? And I always say this is like you have got to go with
19:55
that heart. If it was me personally, I don't know what I would say. I know that I would be thinking
20:01
rahara before I was like, go, go, go America, America, America red, white and blue all day long.
20:06
But now it's like, it's a joke. And it's not the people again. It's what this country is now like
20:12
we stand for or what this administration is trying to put out. And it's almost it's honestly the most
20:18
disgusting thing I think I've ever witnessed. It is gross. We are being mocked by other countries.
20:24
We are being mocked by our own people for for for stuff that's actually happening, not like
20:31
fantasy land, but actual things that are happening. We're pushing agenda that has nothing to do with
20:35
morals and ethics are like, keep in this country safe. And that's what the military sport, a rainbow
20:42
flag, which is not even supposed to be representing what we think it represents. It's not supposed to
20:48
be flashing the military, plain and simple, into story done. We have a problem with beards sometimes.
20:53
Oh, you didn't say, but we're going to change everything to this. It's ridiculous, man. It is
20:57
one sided. It's a political agenda. And they're just trying to do to appease a very small percentage,
21:04
man. And like, honestly, shame on them. Shame on them. Well, and it's going to be egg on all of our
21:09
faces at some point, if we have to get into another kinetic situation and wonder what happened,
21:14
what happened? Where's our warriors? That's what I tell that's what I told again, going back to
21:19
this debate I get did with this pacifist Christian guys. It's like, dude, if you and I are ever in
21:22
the same restaurant together, you know, having to have an amule together, breaking bread and
21:25
someone comes in and tries to kill a bunch of people, you're going to be one of the people that's
21:30
hiding behind a guy like me, hoping I take out the threat before he gets to you.
21:33
Or if a guy like me is not there, you're going to be the one looking around for the sheepdog.
21:37
And if there's no sheepdogs available, you're going to be the one lamenting, where are all the
21:41
sheepdogs? Where are all the sheepdogs? It's like, well, you got rid of them. Like, you got rid of
21:45
those guys and you stopped recruiting them, you stopped catering to them. Because if the military
21:50
starts looking around, wondering where the sheepdogs are, this country is in a major,
21:54
major world of hurt. But we got to kind of put that to bed. Dude, we might just need to have you
21:58
back on just to talk about in coastal stuff, because I want to get you into that. But we got to talk
22:03
about your new book. It's called Unafraid. Guys, if you were listening to this on time,
22:06
it is now available. It is in the show notes. It is your autobiography. So it's just,
22:10
I told you this off air, but I'll say it again here. I've read a lot of military books, you know,
22:15
the, and there I was military books. A lot of them were great. Some of them were pretty average.
22:20
Some of them, you're like, I can kind of tell that you were just kind of like
22:22
infusing a little bit of drama to make your story a little bit more exciting.
22:26
But I think that that you did a great job and you co-wrote it with a guy named Keith Wood.
22:31
And you have some very unique things like you don't have, you know, chapter one, two,
22:34
three, four, five, you do a, you know, based on the military alphabet. So alpha, bravo,
22:38
Charlie, and you kind of go through. So that's kind of unique. So guys, as we go through this
22:41
interview, I'll be referring to those chapters in that way. But I guess just generically, Eddie,
22:46
before we start digging in, you know, piece by piece, going through the book, why write a book?
22:50
Why feel like you needed to write, you know, and there I was kind of military memoir type book.
22:55
Why did you write it with a co-author Keith Wood? How did that process go? Just go.
23:00
All right, story time. So this book, and I've always been the guy that like here's hypocritical
23:05
Eddie again, like I can't believe we're writing books or writing books. But the bottom line is,
23:09
man, a lot of guys that tell stories, they're telling history. We read history all the time,
23:15
right, about eight Lincoln or World War II or whatever it is, the Korean War. We just go back
23:20
and that helps us. History is what saves lives, in my opinion, as we go back like they made this
23:25
mistake. All right, they did this. All right, so we're going to try this. In 2014, when I was
23:30
in living in Tulsa, Oklahoma, I woke up in the middle of the night and all I heard was seriously
23:35
was write a book. And I'm like, okay, that would have a crazy dream. I'm not writing a book because
23:39
I don't like to write. So I'm trying to go back to sleep. And obviously, Tossing attorney couldn't
23:44
get back up. I was like, fine. So I go to my office, grab a legal pad and a pen, I sit up in my bed,
23:49
and I kind of outline all the chapters. Pretty much the chapters we see now are pretty much
23:53
the chapters that happen. A little bit of Tossing attorney, a little bit of adding some things,
23:57
especially towards the end. But that's where it started. So I wrote, I was like, man, all right,
24:00
I'm going to dig into some certain, some specific stories. And it was kind of therapeutic. I was
24:05
just kind of journaling, never did it before. And I got about 150 pages of just like
24:10
words. And the book started out, the name was like going to be facade. It's just like,
24:18
like, fake, honestly, like inside, like, you know, you're this Navy SEAL, people think you're this,
24:23
but really inside you're just tearing yourself apart, you're in pain and you're drinking yourself
24:28
to sleep with a bunch of pills. So that was the initial thing. And that got shelved for a while,
24:34
until probably 2000 and 18 ish. I did a shooting course with Keith Wood. I met him. So I met him
24:43
through the NRA. I was working with the NRA doing a shooting course with a bunch of ex spec op guys.
24:48
And he was writing for him. He writes her guns in ammo. He co-authored the terminal list. And
24:54
whatever the second book of that one was, he did, he did those. He's a really great writer. So I did
25:00
the Mike Ritalin podcast. And a lot of people are like, Hey, man, he should write a book, he should
25:03
write a book. And I was like, Okay, it was a, it was a great podcast, man. It was a, it was a good
25:08
podcast. And so I, I sent the, I sent the link to Keith, because I knew he wrote, as I came in,
25:14
do me a favor and listen to this and tell me if there's a book in it. So he listened to it. Like
25:19
in a day later, he gets back and we were talking, I was like, Hey buddy, would you be up for co-authored?
25:24
And he's like, dude, he's like, I was hoping you'd ask. And we just started going. And then we
25:29
flew down, we did a bunch of recordings, started making the chapters, he would send it back. I would
25:33
edit them, edit them, send it back to him. And we just did this back and forth. And then I mean,
25:38
it just, we went very slow, took a long time, the DoD process, because of COVID, people leaving that
25:43
bill, it took eight months. So it's just been, it's been a process. We're about to start the audio
25:49
book. I got to call I actually, you're in a little bit to go over to set that up. So I'm going to,
25:54
I'm going to do the reading, which I don't want to, because I know I'm going to cry. But here's
25:58
the deal, man, we're keeping that stuff. I want the realism, I want the transparency. And some of
26:03
that stuff hurts to talk about, dude, I'm not going to lie, like I, I spent a lot of times
26:07
sitting right here at my desk, reading, editing, writing, crying. And I just, you know, it's therapeutic
26:12
and it hurt and it felt good. And I liked it. And that's just what it was, man. It's, it's all,
26:17
it's all out for the world to know. And the reason for that is, there's a lot of people
26:21
going through some stuff, man, as you know, this, we got a lot of demons, dude, we're facing them
26:26
in some way, shape or form. And I hope that this serves as a way as like, Hey, it's all right,
26:32
there is light, like there is that light. You just got to find what that is. For me, it was
26:37
Christianity 100%. That might not be the answer for everyone right away. It might not be the answer.
26:42
I don't know. But what I'm saying is we don't give up that battle. We don't take our own lives.
26:46
We don't stuff our issues with the bottle and pills and whatever syringes or whatever you want to
26:51
a pound of freaking coke with your face buried in it. We just don't do that stuff. There's a better
26:56
way to handle things. And it's just a small obstacle that we got to overcome for an amazing life. And
27:02
that's, that's kind of like what I really hope for this book. Yeah, again, I think you did a great
27:07
job, guys, it'll be in the show notes there. There's no way possible. We're gonna spend quite a bit
27:10
of time on the book today. There's no way possible to get into all the stories and all the details.
27:14
I'm gonna be skipping over a lot of it. So you're gonna have to go get your own copy and check it out.
27:18
One thing I did want to make this is kind of a house cleaning thing. I'm in to ask you off air.
27:22
You never refer specifically to what we know colloquially as the team that you ended up on
27:28
while you're in the Navy. So you called it like the special group or the, you know,
27:32
something like the command. Yeah. That's one thing that redacted from DoD is they don't want you
27:37
associated in that organization with specific ops. Okay, so that's why we waited for eight months
27:44
for you. There wasn't a lot. You could see it. It wasn't a lot. Right. I saw it was redacted and
27:48
those different things. So in this conversation today, are we able to use kind of the normal name
27:52
or how you guys describe it or special work for a development kit or tier one unit for the seal
27:56
teams? Okay, fair enough. If you don't know what it is, Google it and you'll see it. Yeah, you guys
28:00
know what the development spot this one. Yeah. There you go. So it's ridiculous. Like everyone
28:06
knows guys. Right. It's like, I've talked to people on this show that just talked about it that
28:10
they're like, Oh yeah, this was it. And this is how we do it. And then other people are like,
28:13
off air like, dude, don't don't say this. Don't say that. I'm not allowed to say it.
28:16
So I just want to make sure I didn't trip on anybody. But I want to talk about something from the very
28:20
beginning in chapter alpha. You talked about your dad and this is kind of a three point for your
28:25
for the entire thing. And again, we'll talk more about your dad a little bit later. But you have
28:29
this quote here. He was a great guy. But I don't think I'm being unfair when I say that his priorities
28:33
were not at home in those years. His tendency to stay away from the house as often as possible
28:38
spelled trouble for my parents marriage. And that absence combined with his frequent alcohol use
28:42
led my parents to divorce when I was seven. So, Eddie, I know you know this because you're a very,
28:48
you know, self reflective guy, that sentence or that paragraph could have been written about you.
28:53
That could have been written about about your career in your family in your relationships.
28:57
And I think it was throughout the book. I think I rewrote it in the it was man. It was. Well,
29:02
you did. So we'll peel back the onion quite a bit. And we're not going to be able to get
29:06
dig into as much of the the family stuff that went down because you detailed that very, very well in
29:11
the book. But I guess let's start there with your relationship with your dad. This is a guy you gave
29:16
your trident to after the after you passed buzz, after you got your trident, you gave it to your
29:20
dad and your dad has it to this day. So it's not like you don't like your dad. But you know,
29:23
some of the same things you struggle with being away from home all the time and you know,
29:26
being focused on work, you saw that from your dad. So is that why you did it?
29:29
I think is I always wanted to prove to my dad to get choked up.
29:34
Let's go. We're like 20 minutes into this thing. Like, no, I didn't know why. You know, you know,
29:40
it is, man, your father, like we want to be the as we've learned a wild and heart, right? We want
29:44
to be the apple in his eye, like period, just like with our father, like with God, like we want to be
29:49
like, Hey, are you proud of me? And I, and I don't know if I got that throughout my my life. And it's
29:56
just somebody that came look, I gotta try to Hey, look, I did this. Hey, look, and I was, he was
30:00
always the first one I call. I remember one time we were going to a bingles game a couple years
30:06
back. And he looked at me and he goes, I'm so proud of you, bro, tears. Yeah, like frickin
30:13
just dunks. I don't, I don't recall hearing that. It's just, um, you know, we always say, like,
30:18
words don't matter, brother, they matter. Like especially when it comes to your father, like,
30:20
I'm proud of you. Like I'm mounted. Are you like, you did well in my eyes? That's everything. That
30:26
is like everything. And, um, yeah, so I remember just seeing my dad, I looked at him like a larger
30:32
the life figure. Like when he dove down to get that anchor, I was like, dude, you're ridiculous.
30:36
Like that was the coolest thing in the frickin world. And, uh, he just, I wanted, I wanted him to be
30:42
proud of me. Uh, dude, as a father now, again, I've got, I've got a two year old and a four
30:50
month old now. And it's just like, okay, pressure is on, right? It's just, it's a different situation.
30:54
And it's similar to how you were with, with it's not easy. No, it's not easy. And around this time,
30:59
and in that chapter, you kind of talked about how you had some of your first, you know, thoughts on
31:04
religion and how, you know, you, you weren't exactly agnostic, but you weren't exactly atheist. But you,
31:09
you really just kind of put, you know, put that, that religion part, you kind of couched a little
31:13
bit, which is similar because your dad wasn't an overly religious guy. And again, we'll get way
31:17
more later on into some of the things that that looks like, but you, you were a very patriotic
31:22
person from the very beginning. Going back to episode 100 of this podcast, you are our first
31:26
guest. You kind of told us about the first time you felt like, no, I'm going to go to the military.
31:30
And guys, if you want to make sure you get that story, go back to episode 100 or get the book and
31:34
read it. But a lot of what the military thing is, and this is why I kind of lament where we're at
31:38
currently, is because the military used to try to make a man out of you. Like, like, that was the
31:43
thing. And in chapter Bravo, I love this story. So I want to tee it up for you to talk about it.
31:47
But I'll tee it up with this quote, becoming a man can mean many things to many people.
31:52
And most probably have, and most probably have a difficult time narrowing the nebulous process
31:57
down to a single event, not me. I can tell you the exact place and time when I crossed the
32:02
threshold from boy to man, it was a hot humid summer day in one of the toughest places on planet
32:07
Earth, Marine Corps recruit depot Paris Island, South Carolina. So for you, that was your right
32:13
of passage. What most boys don't ever experience, they self initiate into manhood. You were initiated
32:18
on that day. So talk to me about what went down on Paris Island. Yeah, I just got broken down.
32:23
I got called aside. I'm going to kind of like bounce out just so we can save it for the book.
32:28
But, you know, it was, they have the sand fleas that frickin hurt there. And they're just annoying
32:31
big, big time nuisance. And I scratched it. You can't move like I just tried to get off my skin.
32:36
And I got caught moving and they're like drill instructor called me out. He's like recruit penny
32:41
and he called me out. And he took me to the, the, the also famous sand pit, which are scattered
32:48
around the island. So it's just a big sandbox where they get at you. So we get in there,
32:52
I put down my rifle, I take off my blouse, I'm just in my t-shirt, my candy pants and boots.
32:56
And he just starts with old calisthenics pushups, sprints, like anything to just like win me,
33:01
get sweat going, the sweat starting to drip in my eyes. And I kind of fall into the state of like
33:05
feeling sorry for myself. And, and this is like boy Eddie, like this is, this is before the chain
33:11
chappens. And I'm like, what's this guy doing? Doesn't he know he's like making me tired? I'm like,
33:15
not realizing the big picture like, bro, you're in Rinkor boot camp and you're at that point back
33:20
in 1996, we're trying to make men, which is not the same as Rinkor boot camp back in like 84.
33:26
All right, totally different, two different things. But there, but he started making me do
33:30
these sprints. And I'm like, I couldn't make the time because the times were made to be met.
33:34
It was to test my mental fortitude, for sure. And he was breaking it and he was breaking it hard.
33:39
And he knew it. And I start crying. I start, I'm 17 years old, start crying. And I'm hoping
33:46
the sweat is like concealing my tears. And these guys aren't stupid. They know it all. They think
33:50
this is in this first rodeo. And he just looks at me and he tells me the kind of like has a very
33:55
plain normal voice, which I like the first time I think I've heard a normal voice from one of these
34:01
guys about discipline, about how important it is like it might seem like this. But over in combat,
34:06
which there was no war going on, but if there was war, like something so small, like a movement
34:12
could set out somebody from an ambush and kill you or worse off the buddy next to you. Because like,
34:17
no one wants to live with that. Like, take me. But he did that. And like, wow, he was talking,
34:25
like my mindset switch, dude, it's like, okay, no more feeling sorry for Eddie. No more like,
34:31
it's time to rise up. It's time to man up. And I can't explain it. I didn't mean to. It wasn't
34:36
like preemptive. Like, it just it just happened. And I, and he continued the beat session to be
34:43
honest with you for a second. I thought it was over, but it wasn't. And he's like, sprint sprints.
34:48
I'm like, but I had like this new fire in me. I was fierce. I was like, bring it. I think I'd
34:53
like, let's go. Let's go like, bring it on. And I do the same stuff in buds. Like, it's just like,
34:58
I can activate a vowel. And it's, it was awesome, dude. But that was the moment that my lifestyle
35:07
changed. My mindset changed. And I became a freaking man. In my mind, that's, that's when it happened.
35:11
100%. Yeah, the guy, I think it has, John Eldridge has told me this before, you're ushering a boy
35:17
into manhood. Like, you're showing them the way. And some people do it on accident. Like, I feel
35:22
like my dad ushered me into manhood on accident because he wasn't, you know, really trying that
35:25
hard. But this is also a man that lost his father when he was 13. And so he had to kind of figure
35:30
out the whole man thing by himself. But that that was a very big moment for you. Because obviously,
35:35
you were in the Marine Corps before you went to the seals. You know, when you're in the Marines,
35:39
you kind of discovered a niche that was very, very good for you, you know, close quarters battle.
35:44
You do a lot of description of that in the book. But in the Charlie chapter of the book,
35:48
while you're still in the Marines, your entire military career, and I didn't know this until I
35:53
read the book. And I thought it was fantastic. Your entire military career, Eddie, and really,
35:57
your entire life was altered forever because you messed up one time. So yeah, you messed up,
36:05
you missed one shot. And it literally changed the entire trajectory of your entire career.
36:12
So, so take us through that shot because that missing of that shot made the decision for you
36:17
to leave the United States Marine Corps and go and try and be a seal. So go for it.
36:22
Yeah, I kind of goes for those unanswered prayers, right? Sometimes you know what the heck you're
36:25
talking about, just keep marching on. But don't worry. There was a couple of months where I felt
36:30
sorry for myself, like, dude, this sucks. I'm going to go, I'm getting out of the military.
36:33
I'm not going to do my dream. I'm like, man, that's like, that's just not who I am. I didn't
36:37
sit right. And I don't know what exactly turned the tides. I was like, I'm switching over and I'm
36:42
going to go be a seal. So you can imagine the naysayers and like you're an idiot, like you can't even
36:47
get into your sniper school in the Marines. And now you want to go to be a seal. One of the most
36:53
demanding and rigorous trainings there are on the on this planet. And I was like, yep. And everyone's
36:59
like, man, do you know what the tuition? I mean, you hear all the negatives. All the negatives. I'm
37:02
like, I knew me. I knew my heart. And that was like another like what I like called little crucibles
37:07
in my life. It's like, I know myself. Like, I know me better than anyone knows me. And they
37:11
goes for anyone. People are like, Oh, you're not going to be good at this. Oh, this really isn't
37:14
for you. Oh, you know that about me? How do you know that? Do you have the speed? No, you don't,
37:18
you don't know about anything about me. So it's just like, and there it was, I never failed a
37:24
frickin event. I went, I frickin destroyed it. It was it sucked. It was a butt kicker. But,
37:30
but that was like, yeah, that missed shot three times. Like, I tried actively to like, like,
37:39
this is before prayer and all this stuff. And it just, there was a different plan for me and
37:45
thank God for that. Thank God for those failures. Thank God. When I, you know,
37:51
we're gonna knock down, we're gonna get knocked down. Right. It's like, do you get knocked down
37:55
and you stay down? Or do you get knocked down and you get right back up at night, you're stronger,
37:59
and you just learn something. Yeah, it's like, are you going to be able to ring out as lesson
38:03
from your failure to kind of go back to Jiu Jitsu? I've lost one match in my entire competition career.
38:09
It was my very first tournament and I lost the absolute quarter or semi final match
38:13
to a guy that outweighed me by about 80, 85 pounds. But I could have beat him.
38:17
I had him in an armbar that that I didn't know how to break his grip and finish. I'd been
38:22
training for six months. He ended up sweeping me and beating me. But it's like, from that moment
38:26
forward, if I get that position again, I'm taking the arm because I focused all my energy towards
38:32
not making that mistake again. Now, now in your situation, that mistake, if you can call it that
38:38
led you into kind of a different path. And you do write an entire chapter about your your buds
38:43
experience. And you know, we're not going to get into how tired cold, wet and sandy,
38:47
where I think that's been written enough times. That's all you put mandatory buds chapter.
38:51
Right. It's still got a total story. Right. See, obligatory chapter. But there's one thing that
38:56
was very important. And you basically were talking about the difference between the mindset and the
39:00
Marine Corps versus what it was going to be like in the Navy seals. And so the first time, I think
39:05
this is when you were arrived in Coronado for end doc. And so this is like pre buds buds kind of a
39:10
thing. And you run into one of the instructors. And he sees that you have a sharpshooter ribbon
39:17
on you. And so he'd like you had to change out one ribbon for the the Navy version or something
39:21
like that. But this guy comes up to you and says sharpshooter, huh? And he kind of tapped on your
39:26
dress whites, he tapped on the ribbon, he says, we're going to make that an expert. And so for you,
39:32
that was kind of like your first tail, your first hint that the seal culture was going to be very,
39:37
very different from the culture that you experienced in the Marines, which also has a very, very strong
39:42
culture. So talk to me about that, that brain shift, because a lot of civilians don't really know
39:46
kind of the culture differences between the two branches. Yeah, when he said that I was very
39:50
taken back by it, I thought I was waiting for something really you can't shoot an expert or
39:53
some kind of smart electric remark. But he said that as like, and you say that's just the seal
39:58
cultures, like, all right, we're going to fix this, we're going to make this happen, we will get the
40:02
job done. It's like, and in that moment, I'm like, these were these these guys are here for us,
40:07
like they're putting us, they're about to put us through a frickin butt kicker of a workout and
40:11
the school, but they're they're ultimately here for us. And I was like, man, you're investing in me,
40:18
like, that's really cool. Like that, like, that's just something that's stuck out. I'll never,
40:22
like it was just want to think we'll make that better. And I was like, darn right, you arks, I
40:26
quit. And so we will make that better. And it was one line, one sentence, like changing.
40:31
Let's talk a little bit more about that, because there was a, there was a one sentence line
40:36
that I think kind of leads you into the stuff you're doing today with unafraid and all this
40:40
mindset stuff. But you said this about your mindset of buds, and then we'll put it, we'll put a bow
40:44
on buds, is you said, I knew that quitting was not in my future. Like, I think you use that
40:51
phraseology very specifically. I knew that quitting was not in my future. Now, I have talked to seals
40:57
that have gone to buds that said something similar, like I knew I wasn't going to quit. I talked to
41:01
other seals that went there that are like, Oh, I didn't know I wasn't going to quit. I just had to
41:04
make the decision, you know, every day, like every hour, every minute that I wasn't going to quit.
41:10
But you said that you knew that you weren't going to quit once you got there. So just simply,
41:14
how did you know that? What's simple? There's tons of guys before me that made up through the
41:19
training. Why are they different than me? They're not. I had like barring an injury which can happen
41:25
and definitely can set you back and get you rolled out or kicked out. I just I knew in my heart and
41:31
in my soul, like it was not happening. I would not quit. Like it just wasn't happening. I wouldn't
41:36
have it. I wouldn't entertain the idea. Did it surface sometimes and whole week and other times?
41:41
I'd be like, yeah, get out. I'd kick it out. I would just like get out of here. If it's not
41:44
happening, I'm not quitting. Because either I'm going to have to redo it again. And it doesn't
41:48
matter. Somebody will knock it on the first try or you just put your head down and walk and I don't
41:53
want to deal with that guilt for the rest of my life. So it's not happening. That was it. Yeah,
41:57
you definitely didn't want to be on a fleet. Yeah, you didn't want to be out at sea any of those
42:00
different things. But for you, the interesting thing for whenever you decide you wanted to become
42:05
a seal, we weren't at war, technically, at this time period. So when you were in the Marines,
42:08
we weren't in any kinetic wars around the country. But you were actually in the buds compound when
42:14
America was attacked on September the 11th, 2001. So you do a lot of detailing it in the book. So
42:19
we'll leave a little bit of that for the future reader of that book. But take us through that,
42:23
because now you're not just training to be a really bad dude. You're not just training to be a
42:27
commando. You're not just training. So you look cool. You know, at a local bar in Coronado,
42:31
it's like, Oh, we're training to go and even the score. So take us through that.
42:35
Yeah, so I mean, I don't, I wouldn't say it changed my mindset, but it changed my mindset.
42:42
Like the goal of the teams is to be ready for anything that pops off at a moment's notice. Like,
42:47
that is what you're, you're just waiting for it to inevitably happen, because it's going to happen,
42:52
like that terror will always be here period evil will always be here. But soon as that
42:57
happened, it's like, okay, now we have a mission. This is our new mission. Obviously, it had to
43:01
develop way to figure out what we're going and where we're going. But I was like, this is a whole
43:05
new meaning to my train is like, I will it was different. Like it, when will it show up? And it's
43:11
here in front of your face are two different things. And we still trained our butts off,
43:17
but it just like, Hey, like this is real. Like we knew, we knew the surrealism of it. Like we,
43:23
this was this is about to happen. Like this is going to happen once we left this training.
43:28
And we did hope that our training would be called short to push us through to deploy,
43:33
but that never happened. Well, so the funny thing about that is as you read it, again,
43:36
I'm a civilian, I grew up in in Lawton, Fort Sill. So I was around guys like that all the time.
43:40
And so I was, I was there in town when the gas station lines were super long,
43:45
when everybody on Fort Sill was worried, because it's like, oh, you know, we're the largest
43:49
artillery base in the country at the time. And you know, we're wondering if that was going to
43:53
be attacked. And like, it was a very, very crazy time. But that's the thing about you guys in your
43:57
mindset is you hope you get to go to war. I have not talked to a single guy that was a seal or a
44:03
green beret or a ranger or something like that. That was like, man, I was really crossing my fingers
44:07
that they wouldn't send us. It was like, no, no, no, it's right across your chest right now. Here I
44:10
am. Send me send me it's my turn. Right. You're like, yeah, it's like what you were wired and built
44:15
to do. So it's like, I try to explain to people this is kind of like a micro example, but I think
44:18
it'll make sense. Like if somebody's wired for entrepreneurship, but they keep taking jobs at
44:23
places where they're just going to be another face in the cubicle farm, it's like, bro, you're
44:27
never, you weren't built for that environment. All right. So that like, that's putting, that's
44:30
putting a fish, you know, on land, like you weren't built for that same thing is if you're not built
44:35
for entrepreneurism, but you read a bunch of, you know, John Maxwell books and random self-help
44:39
textbooks and you're like, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. If you're not built for it, it's not
44:42
for you, but you guys were built for this. You were built to go down range. But in going down range,
44:47
there are some casualties that come with that. And I don't mean necessarily, you know, real life
44:52
casualties, you know, because of you getting hurt and warfare, there are other types of casualties.
44:56
So you talked about when you went to seal team two, you went through the entire process of how you
45:00
got to seal team two and how you wanted to be there. But you, your entire personhood was wrapped up
45:05
in being a member of the teams. But at the time, you were a husband and a father as well, but you
45:10
were completely absent. So I want to read a quote actually, because you talk about that in chapter
45:15
Fox trot, but I want to actually read a quote from chapter hotel here. I returned home from six
45:19
months in Iraq. So this is obviously after your first deployment, I believe you hugged my wife
45:23
and daughter and immediately went to work preparing for my next deployment. We were experiencing what
45:28
many military families, especially those in special operations were going through at the time.
45:32
The wars came first, family came second. So it's obviously a well-known thing that
45:37
members of the spec ops community, the divorce rates are through the roof, you know, over 90%.
45:40
You know, it's one of those things that guys try to, you know, they do their best at the time,
45:44
but it's kind of hard to be worried about, you know, the dryer not working at home when you're,
45:48
you're on a mission trying to make sure that you don't lose your top not. And so it's one of those
45:53
situations that I understand it. And I also don't understand it because you have this desire to be
45:57
a good father. You have this desire to be a better father than the father you experienced.
46:02
And yet you just went down the exact same path. And so kind of take me through that situation.
46:06
I know you spend a lot of time on it in the book, but this is your father all over again.
46:11
But now the collateral damage is your wife and your children.
46:14
Yeah, it, yeah, my mindset really wasn't thinking about my family at all. Like I would be,
46:23
it's so sad to even say those words, but that's just the truth of it is it's like, all right,
46:28
the country where we're getting attacked, like, could another one come up? There's this war on
46:32
terrorism, you know, all this stuff. You're getting behind the media hype. You're getting behind,
46:37
like your buddies are getting destroyed. You want to take it to the enemy. Yeah, it was my priority.
46:43
Now that wasn't like that for everyone. There's guys that were strong in their faith and they
46:48
did the right thing. They have that well balanced. I didn't have that well balanced, man. I really
46:52
didn't. I didn't have Christ in my life at that time. I had alcohol in my life at that time and
47:00
in killing savages. That's really all I cared about. That was, it was like my identity was like
47:05
my life. I was like my blood. It was like my breath of fresh air was putting a bullet in
47:09
someone's face. Like that's just the fact of the matter because since I was a kid, I wanted to rid
47:15
evil. Like I don't like evil. I don't like bad guys. But yet here I am pretty much the evil
47:21
guy in my family. Under my roof, I'm that evil dude that's not being present and they took a
47:27
back seat and that sucks. That sucks to say I was 100% wrong. Those failures in my family were
47:36
everyone's 100% responsible, but I take full responsibility for my piece of it.
47:42
For sure, I screwed up. I screwed up bad and I didn't really realize it was happening.
47:48
And that's not excuse. That's not a scapegoat. That's not a way out of it. And that's not
47:51
dude. And that's not hard. That's a book hard. So and you're obviously very candid about that in
47:56
the book. Like you don't try to make yourself out to be this, you know, hero that we're all
47:59
supposed to feel bad for you. You don't make yourself the sympathetic character at all,
48:03
which I appreciate. But I guess I was jotting down as you were talking is like,
48:06
how, how can we, and I say we as Americans, as people that support the military or whatever,
48:13
like how can we make sure that guys like you don't make those mistakes? That's a silly,
48:17
even as I'm saying it, that that question, I'm not framing it the way that I want to,
48:20
I guess a better way to go about it. Eddie would be if you could go back to the Marine Corps,
48:25
go back to whenever you got your trident or something like that, what would you do differently
48:30
to make sure that your family could still be a priority? Because here's, here's the reality,
48:34
is kids spell love T.I.M.E. And if you're on a six month deployment, and before that, you're on a,
48:40
you know, six month workup, like you can't, you know, feed them their bottle and take them to
48:46
the baseball practice and be in Afghanistan. Like you can't do both. So, so I know you're
48:50
kind of lamenting the mistakes that you made, but could you, if you went back, is there a way to
48:55
do it perfectly? I don't know if perfect's even in our vocabulary, but could I've done it better
49:01
absolutely? But at the same time, I look at my wife now, I like my family now, wouldn't change
49:06
a frickin thing. I wish I was there for my kids for sure or more. Because that, that's what keeps
49:12
you up at night sometimes. But, you know, the SEAL teams don't put, when multiple wars are
49:18
going on, and I don't blame them for this at all, is the priority is those wars. Like there's a lot
49:24
of, there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of things going on. And it's kind of up to you to maintain
49:29
that family life. And I, and I, I was a, I was a boy, I was a boy when it came to that. I didn't
49:35
know if I could change anything, I would, I would have frickin seat God. That's what I would have done,
49:39
that's what I would have done differently. Well, and I was even thinking about this today,
49:43
because, you know, everyone kind of has that nagging thing in the back of their head,
49:46
about like, if you didn't go the military route, like, could you have made it through boot camp?
49:50
Could you have made it through selection? Could you have made it through the Q course?
49:53
Could you have made it through buds? And I think everyone kind of has that desire to kind of move
49:57
that direction, but it's different if you've actually been through it. And it's very easy for
50:00
me to armchair quarterback and be like, Oh, well, just be a good dad and be a good seal at the same
50:04
time. I'm 35 years old, right? But whenever I was 25 years old, I feel like I still didn't have
50:14
the mental maturity that some enlisted seals have when they're 18 years old, right? And so it's like,
50:19
it's easy for me to say that when I'm twice these people's age and I'm more mature and I
50:23
have more life experience, but it's always hard looking back. You can only connect the dots,
50:26
looking backwards and not forward, unfortunately. But to kind of keep moving through the book, Eddie,
50:31
and chapter golf, you get into your first op and things like that, and you do a lot of great
50:34
detail going into that. But something interesting, where you started breaking down again, you were,
50:38
you'd kind of been real attracted to CQB to close quarters battle. But in chapter hotel,
50:43
you talk about whenever you became a breacher. And so again, in the book, you go into a great
50:47
amount of detail as to all that, that was a huge step in your career when you did that. So I want
50:51
you to take us through that a little bit, but specifically, and this is almost like a throwaway
50:55
line in the book, but I kind of attached myself to it. You talked about how when you guys were
51:00
downrange, you were trying to do everything you could to make your pack lighter, right? Like,
51:04
because you had so much stuff on your back, and that's hard on your body. It makes you move slower,
51:08
you're not as able to be as kinetic when you need to be kinetic. And so you were able to kind of make
51:14
one, I guess it was one of the breaching charges, significantly smaller than the ones that you were
51:20
trained to use when you first got in. And you even said, I forget how you word it, but it was like,
51:24
that was one of my biggest, you know, lasting contributions to the special operations community,
51:30
specifically to seal specifically even more so to breachers, like almost inventing you were,
51:35
you turned into an inventor and invented this small charge. So take us through the whole,
51:38
you know, becoming a breacher thing, but specifically that charge that you created.
51:41
Yes, we had to start going through walls because gunfire was, you know, going through the windows
51:46
or the door because that's obviously the point of entry. And I think like usually casually is
51:51
like 70% at that, we call it the fatal funnel, fatal funnel at the door. So like, hey, let's go
51:56
through the walls and the charge that I was referring to in the book, it was 20 pounds,
52:03
20 pounds added on to your body armor, your helmet, your ear, it's a lot of weight. You just
52:08
don't want to do it. So I think I carried it on one up and I was like, okay, this isn't happening.
52:13
So I got with my master breacher, that was a, he was a lot more savvy than I was. I'm like, hey,
52:17
how would we do this? And then we started playing with some things. He's like, hey, let's try this.
52:22
And then we just came up a word to put what was supposed to be is two blocks of C4, which is like
52:29
a three pounds. And then the shockwave like cuts through whatever the material is. And then you
52:35
dump in a thermobaric grenade. And that concussion blows out, the pressure blows out and makes a
52:44
small hole, a huge hole to re and get fricking dudes in. And it worked. We use it quite a bit,
52:50
quite a bit that I would always have that charge of me. And once we saw the effectiveness, we're
52:55
like, okay, the game just changed for us to our advantage. But yeah, he brought it up and they were
53:01
like, we kind of fine tuned it. And that was one of the, and I just was the guy that always was
53:04
testing it, refining it. And we found out later that that's what they were using and future deployments,
53:10
which is is great to hear. Because dudes would always pass on, hey, this works for us. Try it
53:15
out. Like, dude, you just saved our lives. Thank you. So that's what it's about. And that's,
53:19
that's a lesson learned in warfare that probably couldn't have been learned any other way. Because
53:23
again, yeah, pre 9/11, a lot of the stuff my understanding from the spec ops community,
53:27
you're basically training in case a Vietnam type thing happened again. Now I know you guys
53:31
were training for all the different theaters of war. But whenever you're spending 20 years
53:36
specifically in a sandbox, that's, you know, marinated in blood, it's like you get creative
53:41
to your exact scenario, because that charge doesn't make sense in the jungles of Vietnam,
53:46
right? But it makes perfect sense in the scenario that you were in there.
53:49
It was the same thing like Black Hawk down, like Black Hawk down, we lost 19 Americans and
53:53
everyone chopped up as a huge failure. And it didn't turn out the way that we wanted for sure.
53:58
But that one operation changed spec ops across the board for decades. And from that one,
54:05
what people want to call failure, so many lives, hundreds of lives were saved. Like we do this
54:10
now, we don't do this, we do this. I mean, it was, I mean, that one, one operation
54:16
changed the way spec ops did their business. Yeah, it's just incredible. But again, you wish
54:21
that you didn't have to learn the lessons that way, but there does, it does have a positive
54:25
net impact on the back end. But in chapter, in chapter India, Eddie, this is where you get into
54:30
green team screening. And so this is the screening that you have to go through in order to become
54:34
a part of naval special warfare development group, which is again, you know, tier one of,
54:38
you know, the spec ops community of the Navy seals and things like that.
54:42
You talked about a lot of things in that chapter. So I don't necessarily want to tee you up with
54:45
a specific question because you talk about how, you know, when buds, the instructors are trying
54:48
to get you to quit, but in green team, the instructors are just holding an unbelievably high standard.
54:54
Like that's a different site. Like they don't want you to quit. They just want you to live up to
54:57
the standard. And they have no compunction about kicking you out if you don't meet the standard.
55:01
But in a lot of ways, it's, of course, physically brutal on you and on the body. And you have to have
55:09
this, you know, top tier physical prowess in order to be a part of that group. But just kind of take
55:15
us through what you want to do. Because again, I don't want to take too much too much sting away
55:18
from the book because you do a great job describing it. But there are a lot of people that are seals
55:23
that are bad dudes that never got to screen for that team that got there. And we're busing out
55:30
there a lot. There's a lot of myths about, oh, you know, if your gun malfunctions,
55:34
whenever you're in there, they'll kick you out because it's like, you know, the war gods are
55:38
communicating to the instructors that this guy's gonna, this is going to happen to him down range.
55:42
So take that wherever you want to go. Let's dispel some myths or talk a little bit about green team
55:46
screening. It was a lot of pressure, man. It was, I think the selection was way harder than buds
55:52
hands down. Like it was, it was, it was stressful, but it was so much fun. Like it was a blast. Like
55:58
instead of like you, we just, we started off like seriously crawling before we could start walking,
56:02
but in dry fire with our pistol only doing room clearances, then we would graduate to live fire,
56:08
then we'd put it away and drive fire with our M4s. And then you would just spread, then you'd
56:12
move it tonight time. And they just want to make sure that everyone is, it's like, you've heard,
56:17
we've all heard, I'd rather train someone to shoot that's never shot than train somebody to shoot
56:23
that has all these bad habits. Right. It's kind of the same thing. So they're getting everyone,
56:26
they're hitting the default button. Like this is how we do it, because all the teams have different
56:32
operators that learn this or learn that they want everyone together, because when you're doing certain
56:37
operations, you got to know what everyone's going to do. You can't be like, well, this is how I handle
56:42
this, but this is how I you just, it doesn't work that way. That's how people die. So they get you
56:48
back to default. And that is, you got to kind of retrain. So they put the training wheels on for a
56:53
couple of days, and they take them off. And once you can just gradually feel, you can just start
56:58
amping it up, start amping it up. And they want to see you amp it up on your confidence level.
57:04
And once you amp it up and you're freaking zooming around everywhere, that's like, okay, cool. That's
57:08
what we want to see right there. And I remember, like, doing things that aren't by the book. And
57:13
that's what they want to see. Like, okay, cool. Okay, cool. Got it. Got it. That's just what they
57:17
would look at. They would just look for things like, all right, he's getting it. And this is for
57:21
everyone. It's clicking with them. That's what works. He's backing up his boy. He's on, he's ready
57:26
to go. All right, a second. Whatever it is, they got to see your brain doesn't stop. Like
57:30
jujitsu, right? Your brain doesn't stop. It shouldn't stop. Maybe when you're breathing too hard. But
57:35
like, it's got to keep going. It's got to keep going. What's the next step? What's the next step?
57:39
Or what's the next step? And then the next step? Like you just got to have that chest match. And
57:42
that's what they're looking for. And yeah, it can be overwhelming. But buddy, it's a blast. It is a
57:49
blast, especially if you have the passion for it, you know? Right. Well, you did get through the
57:53
screening, you ended up becoming one of those super duper special seals or whatever it was supposed
57:58
to call them. Thank you, DoD for that. But I wasn't planning on asking this question. But as you were
58:02
talking, it reminded me of whenever I was talking with another brother of yours that I don't know
58:06
if I could use his name. But anyway, he was with you there when you were there at the same time.
58:11
And he didn't say this, but the way that he described it whenever I was talking to him,
58:16
there's almost like this, this suicide pact that you guys have in that community that some of the
58:24
missions that you guys go on again, we don't typically hear about those missions unless they
58:28
go incredibly wrong or unless it's politically expedient, you know, like, you know, whenever Osama
58:32
bin Laden got his face split open. But it seems like you guys, as soon as you get on that team
58:39
specifically, not just the seals, but on that team specifically, it's like, yeah, we're probably
58:44
going to die at some point. And it just kind of is what it is. We're going to try to take
58:48
out as much as the enemy and, you know, push back as much evil as we can in the meantime.
58:52
That's what it seems like to me. If I'm incorrect, please correct me. But if I am kind of touching
58:57
on something there, can you talk a little bit more about that? You're not wrong. I remember
59:01
when I was a SEAL team, too, and I told him I was screaming to go and a buddy was he was actually
59:05
one of the divers in Panama for Noriega that put the bomb on the ship. He goes, that's he's like,
59:13
people that go there, he's like, that's where they die. That's where the team guys usually die
59:16
is at that command. And I was like, all right, it wasn't a stop. It wasn't like, okay, let's
59:23
reassess this. It was like, Hey, man, this is my mission. This is my passion. This is my purpose.
59:27
I'm going, I'm going, it wasn't a factor. Like, we'll build that bridge when we get there. I will,
59:32
I'm not going to live in fear. And I like, I know that that's where I'm supposed to go. And
59:35
that's why I went fair enough. So that's interesting that most of you guys kind of share that.
59:40
And, you know, kind of a through point of your entire career, and you talk about this a lot in
59:44
the Juliet chapter is killing, killing is a big part of your job. You know, you describe your first
59:49
kill and there you describe several of your kills, but you have a very specific quote in there about
59:54
killing. And again, this is all pre you becoming a Christian and really kind of making that a
59:58
center point of your life. But I thought this was an interesting quote from that chapter.
1:00:01
Later, the killing became so routine that we progress towards increasingly difficult means
1:00:06
to keep it interesting. When shooting bad guys with the rifle got old, I relished in the
1:00:10
opportunity to justifiably use a pistol or even a knife when the situation permitted. In hindsight,
1:00:16
it was reckless to not use the most effective weapon possible in every mission to ensure that
1:00:20
I made it home safely. But that was not my attitude in the midst of war. You go to a different place
1:00:25
when you're in that kind of combat on a daily basis. If you've never experienced it, you'll never
1:00:30
understand. So I've never experienced it. So I don't understand, I completely agree with you.
1:00:35
But there are a lot of people that will read that section of your book. And it confirms all
1:00:41
of their worst suspicions of you guys that you guys are bloodthirsty. You're actually murderers,
1:00:46
but this is state sanctioned murder. And it's part of the military industrial complex. And
1:00:50
you're a baby killer and you'll do anything to kind of get your rocks off by shedding blood and all
1:00:55
that. And again, it's kind of easy to push those things out there. But intellectually,
1:01:00
that is a point that you have to reckon with because it's like, it seems like for a lot of you guys,
1:01:04
you're either, you know, very dismissive of killing, or you really, really, really enjoy it. And that
1:01:10
causes concerns here on the home front, because there are people that want to kill people that they
1:01:14
enjoy the thought of doing it, and then they go out and do it. And they kill a bunch of civilians.
1:01:18
But kind of take me through that again, this is pre your Christian walk. We don't have to
1:01:22
spend a lot of time talking about thou shot, not murder. We don't have to spend a lot of time
1:01:26
going into all those different things. You were killing intimate combatants that wanted to kill
1:01:30
you, wanted to kill your brothers. And if they got the opportunity would come over here and kill as
1:01:34
many of us as possible, but just talk to me a little bit about that. And they do with a smile on their
1:01:38
face as well. Yeah. Yeah, that that is, I mean, it got to the point was like, Okay, man, I wonder
1:01:44
what it would be like to kill somebody with this, this platform or do this. And that as simple as
1:01:49
like, Hey, I could, I could use my rifle or sling it, pull out my pistol because it's a tight area.
1:01:55
And hopefully there's a bad guy in here. Not, I mean, yeah, hopefully, like I want to get the bad guys
1:02:00
because there's shooters running around here and we better get them before they get us. So
1:02:04
that's kind of what that means is like I would do anything to be put out my firearm and get a
1:02:08
sidearm kill over something I've already gotten dozens with. So yeah, the people can, I could put
1:02:15
in there, I love teddy bears are so soft and so fluffy, somebody will have an issue with it. And
1:02:19
I honestly don't give a crap. I just don't care. That's what it is. That was my mindset is like,
1:02:24
yeah, you want to, I remember I set off a charge and a fricking flat and a dude. And I was like,
1:02:29
wow, that is my first breaching kill. That was fricking awesome. That guy had a pile of grenades
1:02:34
buy them and machine guns with two snipers on the other side of the room with them. So yeah,
1:02:38
he's a bad dude. And I don't feel any guilt whatsoever. I wish there was three of them sitting there
1:02:43
that were bad guys. So yeah, I do that was into it. I was into it.
1:02:49
Well, it's kind of the thing that I remember talking with another buddy of yours that that
1:02:54
was in that bill rapier. And you know, talking to him like he was a Christian the entire time he
1:02:58
was doing that man. That did just start by the way. Yeah, dude, we really enjoyed that. We enjoyed
1:03:03
our conversation with him. And I have not talked to a single person that knows him that has an ill
1:03:07
ill thing to say about the guy. The guy seems to have a tremendous reputation. I spent a lot of
1:03:11
time in in that special super duper seal unit. And the thing that's that's cool about how he
1:03:16
described is he talked about it as a Christian about, you know, we do have this this mandate from
1:03:23
God to protect image bearers of Christ. And that's the one things that these these people don't take
1:03:27
into account these anti war people and all that it's like, do you guys know what these people are
1:03:31
doing to their own people? Do you know about the the subjugation that they put their own populace
1:03:35
in like look, we have the Taliban retaking Afghanistan and Afghanistan has long been out of the out
1:03:40
of the news headlines and all that. But the things they're doing on a daily basis over there,
1:03:45
absolutely horrific. And it's like you have to talk to someone who was actually on the ground
1:03:48
there like I had Tim Kennedy on the show here recently and he was talking about this is not on
1:03:52
the show. We talked about this privately whenever we were with each other in DC, not that long ago.
1:03:57
We talked about how the Taliban was not being portrayed correctly in the media as as savage as
1:04:02
they were. The Taliban was outside the wire of H Kaya and they were literally executing people in
1:04:08
front of the Marines that regarding the X, the exterior walls of the facility or whatever to try
1:04:13
and go the Marines into doing something they're murdering women and children slicing their throats
1:04:18
and cutting their heads off right in front of all these people. And it's like, you don't understand
1:04:22
evil. Like you watch a few Netflix series and a few movies and you think you understand evil.
1:04:27
Like you've seen it, you've smelled it. And it's different. Like, we'll talk a little bit about
1:04:32
that because it's like, I can't stand it when I see these political pundits or these work
1:04:36
correspondence that almost are trying to make us feel bad for saying that the Taliban or these
1:04:42
evil people are that al Qaeda or Boko Haram or Isis or Isis K that oh, they're these evil people,
1:04:47
they're almost trying to treat it like, Oh, they're not evil. They're just misunderstood. I think it's
1:04:51
crazy. It is crazy. It's like we see a car crash like, man, that really sucks. That really sucks.
1:04:57
Seeing that car crash as you drive by slowly causing more traffic. It's different when you're
1:05:02
in that car crash. Can we agree on that? Like that is a totally different feel like,
1:05:06
holy crap. I almost thought that's what witnessing this stuff is. We can talk about it. We can see
1:05:12
the movies when you're in the safety of your own couch and you're drinking your little wine
1:05:15
cool or whatever the hell it is. But when you see it in your fricking front of your face and you can
1:05:20
feel it, you can hear it. You can hear the groans. You can hear the screaming. You can see the
1:05:26
reactions of other people that are bystanders. Bro, it's real real. And this is in the book is
1:05:33
that we found that disc of a guy that I shot and he's doing ballistic tests on KBR Filipino
1:05:40
truck drivers on the side of the road. He's got him staked on the side of the road doing
1:05:44
ballistics. Not using the gelamole, but using rib cages, legs, heads, necks, stabbing and shooting
1:05:50
them. Weird things. Like just hearing their screams and seeing their faces. And this is like,
1:05:56
this is what they do. People don't get that. Like evil from what the majority of Americans
1:06:03
and this world think is evil ain't frickin evil. That's like kitty land crap. Like there's some
1:06:09
real frickin evil, dude. Like really bull. There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed part one of this
1:06:15
interview with Eddie Penny. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
1:06:18
Add on Don to life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that for just
1:06:22
spiritual, mental and physical resilience. And before we get to the links, do not forget to
1:06:26
support the sponsor of today's show. That's Kansas City cattle company, Casey cattle company.
1:06:30
Go to kc cattle company.com. That's kc cattle company.com. Use the promo Kyle to get 15% off of your order.
1:06:36
Again, that promo code is just my first name, Kyle. That's K Y L E for 15% off of your order
1:06:41
at kc cattle company.com. So the links for today, I've got a link to the brand new book by Eddie
1:06:46
Penny. That's unafraid. It's an Amazon link. Go and get that first edition hardcover. Pick it up.
1:06:50
It'd be awesome. Make sure you support them. I've also got a link to Eddie's website. I link to
1:06:53
the contingent group website and his two other appearances on this show. All right, guys. Thanks
1:06:57
so much for listening to this show. We do appreciate it. Wherever you're listening to this,
1:07:00
please subscribe rate and leave us a positive five star view. If you want to come see the live
1:07:03
at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info@indontin.life. That's i-n-f-o
1:07:08
at Undontin.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website
1:07:12
for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
1:07:15
Just go to www.undontin.life. And as always, we want to thank the band August Burns Red for
1:07:20
allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song cutting the
1:07:24
ties, which is off the 10th anniversary re-recording of their album Leveler. The links are in the
1:07:28
description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual,
1:07:36
mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:07:58
[Music]