This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Zach Flumer, welcome to the show, but people might actually recognize your voice a little bit and mistake it for me uh prior to my two vocal cord surgeries cuz it seems like we're we're dealing with a little bit of voice loss today, but you're going to be able to make it through okay? Yeah, I'll really make it through. This This is loud as I can talk today. All right, that's all right. I think I think the audience man, I go back and listen to some of my old episodes before I had two vocal cord surgeries and I'm like I have no idea how we even made it through. But man, let's talk about you. How old are you? Where do you live? What do you do for a living? Yeah, well first I got to correct you. It's Zach Flummer, not Flumer. Flummer? Oh my gosh, that's bad. >> way. Well, hey you know what? Actually I've been saying it wrong this entire time. Why haven't you corrected me? I don't think I've heard you say my last name before. I won't Now, I will tell you on this crop of teams, we've got some weird last names, right? So we had a David Sterpy, but like you could look at that and go steer pay, you know, Richard Ilges, but there's about 14 different ways that you could read that name and so I apologize, but you know what? I'm actually putting the blame back on you that somehow you didn't correct me cuz I 100% said it out loud in your presence. >> SAID MY LAST NAME. OH, OKAY. OH, OKAY. THIS IS HOW WE'RE GOING to get started on such a such a bad note here. The audience doesn't want to watch us argue for the rest of time. So sorry, let's go back to the beginning. Zachary Flummer, it is great to have you on the show and I want to know where you're from, what do you do for a living and how old are you? Uh I live in Waco. I'm an associate >> [clears throat] >> again, sorry for my voice. I'm associate children's minister. Um I'm 24 years old. So here's the cool thing about the spread, especially so you're a member of team eight. On team eight, we literally have the youngest person that's ever been in Dominion, which is you. and we've got the oldest guy that's ever been in Dominion, which is Richard, right? He's about to turn 62 years old. And so that's a nice long spread for this program, but even before we we talked Dominion, I'm just curious for you because our audience spreads from teenagers to guys all the way into their 80s, believe it or not. How did you originally come across Unfazed On the Life? My dad actually sent me a podcast multiple years ago. I don't even remember what it was. Honestly, I don't even know if I actually listened to it. He sent me the interview you did the first interview you did with Mike Ritland. And I saw it and I was like, oh, I think that's cool. And I never listened to it at the time. I don't even know if I was saved yet. So I was like, I'll listen to it another time. And then a couple years down the road, I was like, you know, maybe I should check this out and and see what this is all about. And that's when I really really started to listen to it a lot more, which crazy that now the second Mike Ritland podcast has come out. So that was a really cool full circle. That was actually the fourth time Ritland's been on the show cuz I did three digital interviews with him on the show before we did the in-studio. And you know, I think it was on the third interview where he basically, you know, cussed me and said, "Hey man, I don't I don't understand why the F you care why I believe in God or not." And you know, that that's, you know, a lot of people have asked me about that and then to have him at my table, right? And to have him across from me like profess faith in Christ, it's just like, man. Like he just didn't have need before. He wasn't, you know, poor in spirit and then he he came full circle. And so yeah, that's that's an incredible first episode for you to get exposure to, of course seeing what you see now. And so for you, you know, being in ministry and you know, working through the things that you were working through at the time, why even keep listening? Cuz again, I tell people all the time there's six and a half million shows, seven million shows out there. Like I've said plenty of things that people don't agree with or don't even like the tone that I say it in. But for for you you were able to find value in something. So, what was it that kept you attached to the content because if you're not even attached to the content, Dominion wouldn't have even come across your radar. Yeah, I mean, it was a lot to be honest with you. It was kind of like a I [clears throat] I grew more towards your content as I continued growing in my faith. It's like I wasn't saved really until till 2021, so my freshman year of college. Um and so, I'd listen to you on and off probably about starting in 2023. And at first, I was like, "Oh, I think this guy's kind of cool, but he's he's kind of a jerk. I don't know if I really want to listen to him too much." And then, the more like I I learned about the Bible and learned about like what biblical masculinity means and like what it means to be like a man of God, I was like, "You know, maybe I don't always like Kyle Stone all the time and maybe I'm a little soft sometimes, but I don't think he's wrong." And so, the more and more like I listened and the more I heard about what you were doing and more about the ministry of what you're doing, it I started to be drawn towards it more. And I truly think it was just like as my journey of sanctification, which still at the beginning of, I just became more and more drawn to it of like, "This is what men are supposed to be. This is what they're called to be, and I'm tired of being soft. And like I need someone that's going to call me out. I want to listen to content that's going to call me out, not just affirm what I think." Well, and that's so funny because there's I think no matter what I do, no matter where I'm at in my sanctification journey, there's always going to be a healthy percentage of jerk in my presentation for whatever reason. But what I've had to do over my sanctification journey, Zach, is is it the way I'm delivering the message that is coming off bad to somebody, or is it the truth that is bristling up against somebody's, you know, prior convictions or preconceived notions? Cuz I would rather my message be offensive and not me presenting my message being offensive, right? Because the most offensive thing on the planet to a human being is the gospel of Jesus Christ. This idea that you can't be good enough, you can't clean yourself up enough, you are a wretched black-hearted sinner no matter what your kindergarten teacher told you. Like, all those things are true and that it can't be more offensive than that. And so, I'm like, I'm going to let the gospel offend people, um but I don't want my presentation to get in the way. And my my goodness, it's still a work in progress as it goes from there. And so, you're listening to the show, you you kind of have this, you know, you you've looked internally, you're like, "Hey, maybe I'm a little soft in these different areas. Maybe I need to change my mindset. Maybe I need to move." And then you hear me talk about the Dominion program. So, a program we launched years ago, and then you put in an application for team six. And, [clears throat] you know, we do your interview, you know, very young guy, engaged, and it was just a very unique set of circumstances because, again, not we don't have as many 20-year-olds, and we don't usually have, you know, it's usually 30s and 40s, you know, some guys in their 50s. And so, you were a unique applicant from the beginning, but I'm even just curious for you, like, a lot of guys have heard me talk about Dominion and don't put in an application. A lot of guys have put in applications, but then don't, you know, throw down to do an interview. And then even guys go through the interview process and something tells them to not do it, whether it's a satanic influence, whether it's their wife nagging them, whether they just don't feel confident, whether or not they just, you know, don't want to pull it off or try to pull it off. So, what was it for you about Dominion where you're like, "Okay, I need to I need to go look at this a little bit more." Yeah, >> [clears throat] >> um there was there was kind of a lot of factors, and to be honest, I didn't think about it too much. Um and so, like, when it when it first started coming across my feed, I was like, "That sounds really cool, and I think that that's something I'd want to do later on." Um and I think that that was probably like a year ago, like when you first started doing it. And I was like, "That sounds really cool, and I think that that's something that that maybe I want to do one day." But I was still in college, and I was like, "I just I don't know if my time is right now." And then it came up again in my feed last December. And I had just moved into the ministry job. Um and I was thinking, like, "Well, what do I have to lose? Like, obviously, like I would gain a lot and I think that this could help me not only in my ministry, but I'm engaged. Like, I think this would help me like getting ready for marriage. And I was like, well, if I put in an application, like what's the worst that could happen? Like, if I don't hear back, then clearly it wasn't God's timing. Um and then I heard back almost immediately. I submitted my application like an hour later, you were like, "Hey, schedule an interview." And I was like, well, okay, I think that this is God telling me like, "Hey, keep keep [clears throat] going after this." And I was like, all right, like let's let's take the next Like as you say, take the next right step. That's right. >> And so, I was like, well, next right step is an interview. So, prayed about it, set up an interview. Um and I was like, I'm going to go into this with an open mind, and I I just want to hear about it. Um and then we we had the interview. And that's kind of like in that interview process, once I sat down for the interview, something kind of flipped in me, I guess, and I was like, "I'm doing this. Like, I don't care what it's going to take. Like, I'm going to do this." And I'm A big part of it was like, "I'm tired of of of not doing enough. Like, I felt like there were so many things that I want to do. And like, I have these ambitions, and I want to grow in my faith. I want to be um a strong man of faith. I want to be like provider and protector. Like, I want to do all these things like for my fiance, for my future wife. And it's like, okay, I can keep pushing this off and not grow, or like I can I can like take this step. And so, that's really like it was just kind of a process um in my head, if that makes sense. No, it does. And I actually want to hear a little bit more about the flip, because um there's a difference between flip and flippant, right? Because some people will they'll get a little surge of energy, and then they'll make a flippant decision, and it could lead to some incredibly bad consequences for them in a myriad of different categories. But, I mean, I know it wasn't something I said necessarily, because, you know, that that's just not really how most of this works. But, during the time that you and I were spending together on the interview, which the interviews are fairly quick, cuz there's so I I try to get as many in as as possible in a very short period of time. What what was it that as even you look back on your interview, which was about 6 months ago, what what made that flip go? Do Do you feel like, hey, this is just, you know, Holy Spirit doing its thing? This is like, no, this is a culmination of all these thoughts and urges that I've had for so long and it just kind of coalesced in into this one program? Like, what what was it for you? Honestly, I think it was Holy Spirit. Um I mean, I don't think I don't think it was anything specific that you said. Um but it was kind of like that that flip of like God, I felt like God was calling me to do this. And then there was also the thing that you said about like being in a team of like-minded men. And I was like, how often am I going to have a chance to learn from people who are much wiser than me, who have experienced more than me, and then also get to learn from you as well on the team calls. I was like, I'm probably not going to get this opportunity again. And I was like, I would It would be foolish for me to pass up on this. And so that's kind of when it when it flipped and I was like, this is this is what I need to do. Well, you know what's interesting that even your feedback is giving me, Zach, because, you know, in some of the earlier iterations, I would give people a little bit of time to to mull it over and consider it. But I went back to, you know, some of my old jobs that I had and you know, some you know, where I was doing some sort of sales cycle or something like that. And what I realized is your answer tomorrow is going to be the same as your answer a week or two from now. It's just going to be the same answer. Because you're either going to figure out how to make it happen, whatever it is, or you're not. You either want to do it or you don't. You either are going to convince the people around you that you're going to do this or you're not. And so it's very binary. And so I don't really give people a lot of time to consider this. It's like it's kind of crap or get off the pot. And that's not some sort of like I didn't read that in some sort of like how to close the deal book or something like that. It's just Look, like it you got to make a call. Like you either mean it or you don't. And I try to warn guys. Like the Why do we do an application? Because I know losers aren't going to do an application. Right? Because you're you're never going to be able to survive a program like this if you're unwilling to spend some time on the application. And then it's impossible for me to know whether or not it's the right program or the right time for you to go through the program, if I don't talk to you about it first. If I don't hear what exactly you're trying to get out of this. Like what is this for? Like what are you doing this for? Who are you doing this for? Why do you want to be equipped to push back darkness? But the unique thing about you is you're the first person to go through this program that was engaged, right? And so you see this this woman you're trying to become the head of a household or you're trying to be attached to this woman who's going to be the helpmate made fit for you. You know, you know, praise God if, you know, children come as part of this this union and you raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, but you have spent all this time cuz when did you get married again? October 23rd. Yeah, so so we're we're just really a few months away as of the recording of this. But you've been in this program for almost 6 months. Like you have one one month left in in the first part of this program and then it's watchman after that, the alumni program. Like most guys, if they could go back to when they were engaged to do everything they could to prepare themselves for marriage, you'll never get fully prepared, but to have like six intensive months right before you get married to really focus in on biblically based manhood, it's just it's got to be such a unique experience. So like I'm I'm curious, I'm very excited to hear from you about what has it been like in terms of the timing of when you decided to do dominion? I mean, the timing's been in incredible. Um and like my team has just been I could not be happier. Like with just like getting in to know these guys and something that that I've been trying to do is in my calls, like in the one-on-one calls that I have with my teammates, is like ask them about marriage advice. And like I can't even tell you how valuable it is to to talk to guys who've been married for for 15 plus years with multiple kids, just saying like here's what I've done right, here's what I've done wrong. I mean, it's just I don't I can't think of anything else that could have been more valuable um at a point in my life and then like there was a part of me like >> [sighs] >> while I was going through it is I was I was noticing changes. Like I was noticing like my discipline was much better. Like it was the first time I've ever actually which crazy that's horrible to say this like I work at a church and it's the first time I've ever like sat down and read the Bible for myself. Like I had sat down and prepared lessons for fourth through sixth graders. I had talked to them about things. I've taught them about Jesus. Like all of the things. Like all of these great things. But I had never sat down and read the Bible for myself ever. And then just the change in like the first month of like I'm going to go through the reading and it's like oh my gosh. Like how have I not done this before? Like how foolish can I be? And so like that was like the first step and so then I'm noticing these changes. And then um this is not directly related to Dominion but then did the 31-day resilience challenge on top of doing Dominion and then saw all of those changes. Um and then like it kind of culminated for me. Can't remember the exact date but I was at um I was at dinner with my fiance and I got up I think I went up to go grab grab water or something. I come back down and there was a card sitting at at my at my at the table. And it was just a card of her just saying like I've seen so much growth in you and I'm so excited to get married to you. Like you have grown so much. >> go. And like my like like I'm tearing up a little bit right now but like Yeah, me too. Oh my gosh. Which which once we finish this like if you're okay with it I'd like to read you what she wrote. Please. I don't want to read that for everyone out there but just like that just impacted me so much and I was like oh my gosh. Like I'd pay a million dollars. Like I my whole life savings. Like I don't care. Like just to feel that again. And so like just crazy crazy for me. So Zach as even as you're saying that I remember I maybe this is the moment where I knew Dominion was not just a thing but it was like a thing thing. Like this this is going to be a thing that we do now. And it goes back and I talked about this on the show with Will and Becky Smith. So, Will was on team one and Becky, his wife, and here we are, you know, a few months into this program, whatever. I'm at Church of 1122, which is the church they're at. He sees me, comes up, says, "Hey, great to see you, blah, blah, blah." Introduces me to his wife. We're chatting. And then, someone comes up to talk to Will, and then his wife just [clears throat] squares up to me and stares at me in the eyes. And I'm like, "Oh god, what have I done?" I've seen that look before. It never ends well for me. And she just It's a loud room, lots of stuff going on. She just barely whispers, "Thank you." And I'm like, "For coming to church? To for for introducing myself?" I I I I I I I I I I I was confused. She's like, "No, no, no, no. You don't understand. Ever since Will started this program." And again, the program for team one is so completely different than what you guys are experiencing. It's it's just improved uh considerably. She's like, "He's never been more dedicated to his Bible reading, to leading uh as the head, the godly head of this household. He's never pursued my children harder. He's never pursued me harder. He's never worked out harder. He's never, you know, taken his diet more seriously, his work, all that kind of stuff." And here I can report, we're a couple of years past that interaction. He's still on the path. And his his MO for years was do it for a while and then fall off. Do it for a while and then, you know, kind of start being inconsistent, right? And it's almost like the Dominion program that gives guys permission to not fail, which sounds ridiculous. But, there's something that clicks in the mind of a human being, especially a man, when he makes an investment in in himself and he looks me in the eye and says, "I'm going to give you the time, the effort, and the capital to do this program, and I'm going to I'm going to squeeze every last bit of value out of it I can." And then, again, I'm not a babysitter. I'm not a magician. So, I'm not going to do it for you. And if you decide a few months in that you don't care anymore, okay, that's on you. Like, I I I can't hold your hand for the rest of your life and and hold your feet to the fire. But, it's the exact same thing. Like, obviously, this this gal she can get out right now, biblically. And it's no big deal. Like, so if she saw you get worse over the last 6 months, she's well within her rights to be like, "I'm not going to hitch my wagon to this loser." Right? But, she's seen you do the hard work to actually invest in yourself. And again, man, this was this is a lot. Like, we That's why I I I try to make sure people realize how much time, effort, and capital it's going to it's going to take because you're not going to change your life with a small investment of those things. And so, for you again at some point, you got to the decision point and you made it, but then you you walked through the front door. You know, what what was that like when you finally decided, "I'm going to do this." And then we we we've heard her perspective a little bit more, but what about your perspective? What have you seen specifically in yourself even over the last 6 months to where you're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe I was ever even on the fence about this deal." I think a big part of it, like what I've seen is is my desire to grow as like in my faith. And like my desire to learn has never been higher. Um like the more and more I'm in the Bible and the more and more I'm held accountable by my teammates and like by guys who who love Jesus, love the Lord, and love their wives well. And like they're pushing me to be better. Um and I've just never had so much desire to do that. Like, Like, this is like a small example, but like something that like like when I first was saved, like my first thought was like, you know, like all that matters is that I love Jesus. And like that that's that's a good that's a big portion of it. But now, like it's like, I want to learn more. Like, I want to learn more and I want to learn more and I want to learn more. And it's like, okay, like let's look at like Charles Spurgeon. Let's look at like all these different guys who like have these great writings. Let's Let's look at the writings of John Calvin. Let's see like the origins of Catholicism. Like, all of these different things. I never had any of those desires before. And it's just like as I'm more in the Bible and more around like godly men and more around these these positive influences, it's like I want that. Like I want what what they have. Like I want to live my life the way they've lived their lives. And and then this desire to grow just is like I I can't stop it. And I've never felt that before. Because before like to be completely honest, like as I said earlier, like I I could be kind of soft. Um like I was always really competitive, but like when something bad would happen, like I I would shut down. And and I was weak. And then like as I I as like it got better over time, but it was never like oh, like Zach's a resilient person. Like it was like, yeah, I've been through some hard things, but I still kind of throw fits every so often. And then like as I've continued growing, it's like, no. Like I'm going to get back up. I'm going to keep fighting and I want to keep learning. And I've seen that grow a lot in me. And like there's been things that have popped up over the last 5 months that like if it would have happened to me a year ago, the the world would have been ending. Like in my mind at least. Like um like to give you an example. So like I I'm training for a marathon right now, which first of all, don't recommend. Running kind of sucks. So like don't do it. It's the worst. It's not worth it. [clears throat] Do do something harder shorter amount of time and it's so much better than wasting a Saturday running for 4 hours straight. It's just not worth it. That being said, I'm still going to do it. But I I strained my calf on my 20-mi run and I couldn't it was like hurt to the touch and it was swollen. I was like, this is ridiculous. And normally I'd be like, well, there it goes. Can't run anymore. That sucks. And instead like my mindset was like, well, you know, this sucks. I'm just going to take a couple days rest and I'm just going to work back into it. And a week later I was like, wow. You know, when I actually approached this in a mature manner and didn't throw a fit like how I used to, I I I can get through this. And and I can it's and it's okay. And that wouldn't have happened 6 months ago. One, I mean, to be [clears throat] honest with you, for a man that's really wanting to lean forward and really cultivate spiritual, mental, physical resilience, be equipped to push back darkness, all the things, you are going to keep finding areas of weakness and softness in your life. And the only question is, what are you going to do about it, right? So, when when we do the meet-up as all the teams we come in and all that, I I say it, you know, somewhat in jest, but I actually mean it as well. It's like, "Well, guys, we're going to have a lot of fun this weekend, but you got to earn your fun. So, we're going to start out by working out." And so, some guys have come to those meet-ups thinking, "Man, I'm in pretty good shape." And then we go through my warm-up and it's like, "Ooh, I guess I'm not." There are guys that think, "Oh, I I know how to fight. I know how to handle myself. I know how to, you know, take care take care of business if I needed to." And then we do a little jiu-jitsu and that becomes pretty apparent that they were wrong about that. You know, this time we did like a Q&A where we were kind of talking through some things. I had my pastor there for my Forging Table, or some of the Team One guys, some of the Watchman guys. And you're always going to find an area where, man, I'm just not very good at that thing. And you could run back to the things you are good at, or you can reckon with it and fix it, right? Because, yeah, dude, you say throwing a fit and all that, but, bro, same way, right? So, like for me, like I'm not super handy. Like I don't just naturally know how things work. I don't really have a mechanical mind or all that. But I can read a 500-page book and give you three bullet points immediately as to why you should or shouldn't read it. >> [gasps] >> And so, like sometimes when I'm working through instructions, like there's 100 steps here and I'm on step three and I'm like, "This is ridiculous." And normally it'd be, you know, throw the IKEA thing against the wall, kick the dog, and take off running out the door. You know, that's old Kyle, but that's part of my sanctification journey as well. And one thing that I would like to just compliment you on and commend you on, when when you said that you're you're really you've got this hunger to learn, I know that that's true because you ask for clarification more than anybody currently in the program. So, when we're doing our monthly calls and if something's not automatically landing with you, you will very politely interrupt and be like, "Hey, if you wouldn't mind, could you actually reword that? I didn't quite understand." Or, "Hey, you know, you said this, but earlier you said this. I'm having a little bit of trouble, you know, combining those two things. Can you help me?" And you're not doing it to embarrass me. You're not doing it to show off to your teammates or anything else like that. You're not doing it to torpedo the phone call. You're doing it because you're seeking to understand, right? With There's you some marriage advice. If you're going into a conflict with your wife, seek to understand, don't seek to win. That's some of the best advice. That's Jordan Peterson advice. It's like, one of you is going to be the better arguer. And so, if you argue better every time and you win every argument in terms of the argument, what are you? You're the winner. But then, what does that make your spouse? The loser. And does anyone want to be married to a loser? No. [clears throat] So, don't seek to win the argument, seek to understand. But anyway, we got we got to wrap up here cuz we we got more stuff to do today, but we'll make this the last question. Got [clears throat] you know, you got guys right now that are thinking about putting in an application, but they're on the fence for whatever reason. Or maybe they put in the application. I I reached back out said, "Yeah, I think you should do an interview." But they're on the fence about doing the interview, right? Cuz it's not just, you know, a freebie. It's something, you know, you know, we need a pound of flesh to even do the interview. Then you got guys that have gone the whole way, Zach. They've they've gone through the interview process. I've told them about the program. They seem like a fit to me. They want to do it, but something's holding them back, right? Whether it's it's fear, they don't know if they can can invest the time or the money. They don't know if they can, you know, convince everyone around them that this is going to be the time that it's different. What would you say to the guy that's on the fence? Man, I'd say Well, I'd say get off the fence, first of all. But secondly, it's it's are you willing Like, do you want to be better? And at the end of the day, if the answer is yes, there's no reason not to do it. Like, it's it's it's kind of that simple in my mind. Like, it's like if you want to be better, if you want to grow, and you want to be a force for good in the area around you, the answer is yes to do it. And it's kind of like are you are you willing to say that? Like are you willing to kind of draw that line in the sand? And so I I tell any guy who's who's thinking about it, it's like yeah, do it. Like you need this. But then I'd also tell the guy that it's like if you're not going to put the work in, don't do it. Hey, that and you can speak to this cuz you've gone through the interview. Did I not tell you? I'm like this is the expectation and it ain't going to change. It ain't going to get any easier. So it's like I almost beg guys not to do it. To where it's just like dude, if you're just going to month or two into this start like coasting and and not really taking it seriously, just just don't do it. Like there's there's no reason like cuz it won't bother me. It's going to bother you and all the other people depending on you that you dedicated yourself to another thing that you didn't follow through on. So obviously not a great way of operating, but Zach, man, I really appreciate your perspective. I'm so excited for you and then we'll end this interview so uh you can read that letter uh from your fiance. But man, thanks again for coming on. Thanks, Cal.