DERWIN GRAY | Lit Up with Love (Ep. 719)

0:00 This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.

0:24 I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.

0:26 All right, guys.

0:27 We've got a special guest on the podcast.

0:28 Today's name is Derwin Gray.

0:29 He is technically a return guest because he came on during saturated.

0:34 So if you guys remember back at last September at church 11, 22, he was one of the speakers

0:38 that saturated and so he would speak and then we'd all go in the studio together with Joby

0:42 and then we would record.

0:43 So he's been on the show before, but this conversation was just him and I.

0:46 So he is a pastor, author, and former NFL player.

0:49 So he is the founder and lead pastor of Transformation Church in Indian Land, South Carolina.

0:53 He was drafted by the Indianapolis Colts and played for them from 1993 to 1997.

0:58 Then he played 1998 with the Carolina Panthers.

1:00 So he's authored several books.

1:01 I think he's authored eight books up to this point, but now he has a ninth book out and

1:05 that is called lit up with love, becoming good news people to a gospel starved world.

1:11 And so we started out the conversation and I, he made a comment about anointing and so

1:15 we got into this flowy conversation about anointing.

1:17 So we didn't really get into my questions for about 10 minutes or so, but he had a really

1:20 rough upbringing, guys.

1:22 And so that's what we spend some time talking about is how can a guy go from that rough

1:25 upbringing to have any level of success or something like that.

1:28 And so we talked about how football became an escape, how he had a couple of coaches.

1:32 And again, I apologize for this dog.

1:33 Like again, Roman, the giant one always just sit here and be quiet, but now I've got this

1:36 little Maltese.

1:37 I just sides.

1:38 He wants to make noise, but only when I'm recording.

1:40 So apologize for that.

1:41 But he's got these coaches and these coaches are investing in him and they're inviting him

1:46 or what was a quote that I wrote down.

1:48 They invited him to step into the challenge, right, to step into the challenge of being

1:52 a leaf football player, but being a great man as well.

1:55 And then we talked about how it was actually a naked guy that helped lead him to Christ.

1:59 So you're going to have to listen to the interview, obviously, to get that story.

2:02 But then we go in and we talk about his ministry.

2:05 We talk about lit up with love and we talk a lot about a lot of different things like

2:08 what are the things that keep men specifically from sharing their faith?

2:12 What are the things that keep people like stunted in terms of their growth?

2:16 Why are churches really focusing on discipleship?

2:19 What is it about the exhaustion that we feel in our culture that is like keeping people

2:24 pinned down, how men don't really look at their work as missionary work or as a mission field

2:31 of any kind?

2:32 We talked about pluralism and different things like that.

2:34 And then at the end, we talked about really this tension between having a men's ministry

2:38 versus having a man-friendly church and what he does to really kind of help make his church

2:43 man-friendly and other ministries as well.

2:45 And then at the end, we really talked about the subject to race.

2:48 And again, it's one of those things we just kind of did it at the end.

2:50 It's an add-on to a conversation where we could have just had that as the entire crux

2:55 of our conversation today, but I really did enjoy his perspective and what he shared about

2:58 race.

2:59 So guys, really, really love this interview.

3:01 He is an absolute amazing dude.

3:03 I just love him and his ministry and everything.

3:05 So I'm not going to keep him from you any longer.

3:07 So without further ado, let's get into it.

3:09 Derwin Gray, welcome back to Undaunted Life of a Man's Podcast, but this time we're not

3:13 in the same room.

3:14 Hopefully we can still make this happen.

3:16 We can still make some magic happen.

3:18 Well, we are going to do our best.

3:20 I don't know about magic, but I'm looking forward to the conversation and I appreciate

3:25 you having me all man.

3:26 It means a lot.

3:27 Man, I'm, dude, I'm thrilled to have you on because when I saw you at Saturated, that

3:30 was actually the first time that I heard you preach, which is to my dismay, so terrible

3:34 person that I am.

3:35 But speaking of terrible people, Joe B. Martin is how you and I got connected.

3:40 Why in the world do people think he's a good person?

3:42 Like I don't really get it.

3:43 He's not good at preaching.

3:46 He's not even strong.

3:47 He looks strong, but he's not strong.

3:48 I've seen it with my own eyes.

3:49 So why in the world do you associate with people like that?

3:52 Joby is good people, man.

3:54 Joby, see, see, people, Joby has people fooled like he has this, you know, this country,

3:59 you know, Carly Davidson cowboy.

4:02 That dude is a genius.

4:04 Joby is one of the great gospel centered preachers in the country.

4:09 He's an incredible leader that's built an incredible team.

4:13 1122 is an incredible model of what a local church can and should be.

4:18 And, you know, I mean, there are certain people that the Lord unoints and it's never about

4:24 comparison.

4:25 And so man, I'm grateful for him, grateful for 1122.

4:30 And so, but yeah, you know, the one thing I would do is I would shave that beard because

4:35 he started to look like Santi Claus a little bit, but Joby's the man done.

4:39 And he has like 14 or 15 different assistants, but they, he'll have like beard hair on his

4:46 shirt.

4:47 And it's like, bro, I know your church has money.

4:50 Just get you one of these lint rollers, brother, just roll, just roll that gray hair off there.

4:54 I don't really understand it.

4:55 So, so, so, uh, Joby, Joby Martin story, right?

4:59 So I preached at, at Satch rate, which was incredible.

5:03 I'm still getting emails from people and it's awesome.

5:09 So in his office, right, there's, there's animals everywhere.

5:13 And, you know, I fish, I'm not, I'm not in the guns.

5:17 My environment that I grew up in guns was just, they were not associated with hunting.

5:23 So, but I love the fish.

5:25 But so, you know, I'm around his office that man got a full lion in the office, not, not

5:31 like a lion.

5:32 I mean, a full lion after I saw that, I was like, wow, this is, this is, this levels to

5:38 this.

5:39 Well, Darren, there are levels of this, but I just need to tell you, if the animal has

5:42 a cute face, that means it's probably delicious.

5:45 And so, uh, we need to get you, I mean, fishing's fine.

5:47 Like, I'm not a hater on fishing, but it's just like, ah, you know, it's just a fish.

5:51 And to just catch it and then just send it right back without eating it, there's just

5:55 something in me.

5:56 And I didn't grow up hunting, you see, and so I didn't grow up around guns at all.

6:00 You know, I grew up kind of in a rough neighborhood.

6:01 So whenever I saw guns, it was similar to, to your upbringing.

6:05 But before we get into your upbringing, because I want to, I want to start there with our

6:07 interview, you brought up a word that I actually asked Jobe about, which is anointing because

6:13 you see these, you know, let's call them online pastors and they love to talk about

6:19 their anointing.

6:20 Right?

6:21 Like they treat it like it's like, oh, I'm anointed and they, they like to inform people

6:24 of their anointing all the time, which is really cute.

6:27 But there are also times where it's like for, for me, for undaunted life, you know, when

6:31 the number one Christian podcast, uh, for men in the world, you know, we launched the

6:35 daily blade and it immediately shot into the top charts and like all this kind of stuff.

6:39 It's like, wait a minute, like if God's hand is on stuff, whether that be podcast or preachers

6:45 or movements or actual church networks or something like that, like when can we say,

6:50 Hey, this is actually anointing and not just good luck.

6:53 Yeah.

6:54 Yeah.

6:55 So I think taking a step back, first of all, a preacher should never say they're anointed.

7:02 It's like a beautiful woman having to tell people, I'm beautiful.

7:06 Yeah.

7:07 What does anointing mean?

7:08 First of all, anointing simply means this, that the power of the Holy Spirit is working

7:14 in congruence with someone's faith to glorify God, right?

7:20 So number one, you should never say you are anointed.

7:25 Other people should say, wow, God is really moving powerfully.

7:30 And that doesn't mean that it's better than something else.

7:34 It just means for this season, for whatever reason, God at His sovereign grace has decided

7:41 this movement, this person, this group is going to have a larger than normal influence

7:48 and impact.

7:49 But here's the danger of anointing our movements.

7:53 And we've seen it recently in the last 20 something years with, you know, pastor blowups and movement

8:01 blowups and church collapses is the, is the moment that you think you're doing this is

8:08 the moment you are done.

8:11 Matthew five, three, blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

8:19 God can't fill people who are full of themselves.

8:25 And so what I would say to you, Kyle, just as an older brother in Christ.

8:30 The higher God lifts your podcast, the lower you need to go.

8:36 And so Jesus in his humanity, humanity, although he existed in the form of God, they're not

8:41 considered equality.

8:42 We got something to grasp, but he humbled himself obedient as a bond servant unto death.

8:48 And so the more God accomplishes in my life, the smaller I want to become and go, yes,

8:54 God is using me, but even my faith is a gift.

8:57 So obedience, typically an overnight success is about a 20 year journey.

9:02 Hey, let's go.

9:03 Amen.

9:04 Well, and I'll tell you this is well, Derwin, I've kind of gotten in this habit.

9:08 I kind of had this back for my sales days, but back in sales, like bad salespeople think

9:13 you get paid on the information you give out when it's actually the, the opposite.

9:16 You get paid on the information you bring in and you can't bring in information if you're

9:19 just talking the entire time.

9:21 And so I would try to ask people at least six questions about themselves before I would

9:25 answer any about myself.

9:27 And I'm using that now as it pertains to the podcast world, because it's weird.

9:31 I mean, you're used to this because, you know, played the NFL, like you played a college

9:35 ball and now you're this big time pastor.

9:37 So you get recognized in public, right?

9:39 And so I'm getting recognized in public.

9:41 All the people stopped me in the airport or people stopped me at different places.

9:44 And my, my modus operandi, my default mechanism is the moment they start asking me about me

9:49 and my weird job, I immediately flip it.

9:52 I'm like, man, it's not nearly as sexy as you think.

9:54 Hey, how'd you find our show?

9:56 Oh, well, how did you meet that guy that shared it with you?

9:59 Hey, do y'all go to church together?

10:00 Oh, how long you been going to that church?

10:02 Hey, did you grow up in church?

10:04 Hey, what, what is it about your church that made you leave there?

10:07 You mentioned that, you know, it's not very man friendly.

10:09 That's six questions like right off the top of my head because it makes me not the point

10:13 anymore.

10:14 You know what I mean?

10:15 Yeah.

10:16 Well, and I think my son is 24.

10:20 He's a first year law student at Penn Carry Ivy League, number four law school in the country

10:24 loves the Lord, speaks four languages, one of the greatest men that I know.

10:30 And what's amazing about him is I've watched him for years and he's done this since he's

10:34 about 17 is I mean, he's six foot two, I mean, he looks like a Greek God.

10:39 I mean, it is ridiculous.

10:41 But whenever people talk to him, he immediately begins to ask questions.

10:45 I call him the most curious man in the world.

10:48 And what happens is people begin to go, wait, you care about me?

10:52 You like you don't know about me.

10:54 And I think it's actually a form of dignifying another human being to say, Hey, tell me your

11:00 story.

11:01 To tell me, tell me what what you are about.

11:05 And I have seen that young man lead so many people to Christ.

11:09 I've seen so many people find strength, not from him given a resume of himself, but from

11:16 him taking the time to say, Hey, tell me about you.

11:20 And that's how we actually break down barriers, build bridges and go somewhere.

11:25 Hey, I absolutely agree with that.

11:26 And you're saying you're not the point, whenever you're communicating to somebody on

11:30 his curiosity, because the thing is, you know, my mechanism is asking them six questions

11:34 about themselves.

11:35 It's not the same six questions.

11:36 I'm having to listen to their answer to question one in order to formulate question number two,

11:41 same thing like what I do on these interviews.

11:42 I've got my questions ready to go, but this is how I expected to go in our first 10 minutes.

11:46 But I keep thinking about this, Derwin, you know, with the success and Madonna life and

11:51 all that, all that's great.

11:52 It would be very, very easy for me to think, man, I'm the point, but I've got two sons,

11:56 a four year old and a two year old James and Eli.

11:58 I bet you Billy Graham's dad thought he was the point, right?

12:02 And no one remembers Billy Graham's dad.

12:05 Now I'm not picking on Billy Graham's daddy was probably a good man.

12:07 I really don't know anything about his story, but I always wonder what if everything I'm

12:11 doing to equipment to push back darkness on this planet is to set up James and Eli.

12:16 And they're the ones are going to be welcoming in reformation of man friendly churches all

12:21 around the globe.

12:22 I don't know.

12:23 Like again, that's how I can, as we get more successful, bring myself lower as you were

12:28 suggesting earlier.

12:29 Well, you know, Kyle, and our faith is one in which we all fall from the bloody tree

12:36 of Christ and that empty tomb.

12:39 So it's always about I'm going to crawl so the next generation can walk and run and

12:47 ultimately fly.

12:49 But what I've learned is the way I can leave a legacy in my children who are 28 and 24 is

12:57 by one living in and receiving the love of Christ.

13:02 Number two, loving their mother's Christ love the church and number three, loving them in

13:08 such a way that they know their worst mistake.

13:12 I'm always having their back.

13:14 But while we were yet centers, Christ loved us.

13:18 And so my focus on legacy flows from the overflow of God's fountain of mercy and kindness

13:26 and goodness and truth and justice.

13:29 But yeah, we we we crawl so our kids can run.

13:34 Hey, that's the way it goes.

13:35 And if we're going to be shooting arrows into the next generation, we got to make sure their

13:38 arrows are sharp.

13:39 So it's interesting.

13:40 We're even having this conversation and starting it where we were, because Derwin, you shouldn't

13:44 even be here right now, considering you're upbringing, right?

13:47 Very, very rough.

13:48 And you mentioned in your new book, which we'll get to here in a second in a lot more specifics,

13:52 but it wasn't until you were in your 40s where you really kind of reckoned with the actual

13:57 trauma you went back to experience, because we live in an era where if somebody spells

14:01 your name wrong on your Starbucks cup, that's trauma.

14:04 Oh, it's a microaggression.

14:05 If somebody asks you where you're from, because they don't recognize your accent.

14:08 And so in in our era, you actually look back and you see real trauma in your upbringing.

14:14 And you actually, I think you use the phrase unspeakable trauma from your upbringing.

14:18 So this isn't a soft place to land as it pertains to the real interview getting going.

14:22 Yeah.

14:23 What was it like growing up, Derwin?

14:24 Right.

14:25 Yeah.

14:26 Yeah, man.

14:27 So, so let me park here because you said something that I don't want to be missed and I'm going

14:31 to reiterate it throughout my story.

14:33 And as a pastor, this is so important, right?

14:37 So our culture, the zeitgeist, that's a German word, which means spirit of the age.

14:43 And so the spirit of the age has flipped so far in many progressive ways that like you

14:50 said, if I have conflict, oh, you traumatize me, right?

14:55 Yeah.

14:56 Now we can flip all the way to the loony tune, right?

15:01 And it's like, there's no trauma like like Jesus has this balance of words where I as

15:07 a man can say, you know, yeah, being sexually molested as a kid, that's trauma.

15:14 And one out of five men are to say, hearing gunshots often is traumatic.

15:23 Watching domestic violence is traumatic.

15:26 And so at age 13, like, there was no option like, like, like you grow up, like where I

15:33 come from, like there is no delayed adulthood, like you at 13, I said football is my way

15:41 out.

15:42 I was 16, my mom was 16, which was pregnant with me, dad was 17.

15:48 Both of them struggle with various mental health issues, substance abuse issues.

15:53 My grandparents on my mom's side primarily raised me.

15:58 But I knew if I was going to get out, it was the military, the Marines or football.

16:04 And so I had great godly Christian coaches.

16:08 So if men that are listening, your job is your mission field.

16:13 You're not just going to work to get a paycheck.

16:16 And so these coaches taught us not only to be great football players, but ultimately

16:22 to live a life to be a great man, which is sacrifice, which is discipline, which is teamwork,

16:27 which is caring about others more than yourself.

16:30 So ultimately get a football scholarship, meet a girl, freshman year, BYU, college,

16:36 all American, get drafted NFL, God is good.

16:39 God is awesome.

16:40 And in my 40s, when my kids are growing up, I'm like, man, there's some unresolved things

16:47 that I really need to wrestle with, because as men, we're taught to suppress.

16:53 And whatever we suppress will ultimately depress.

16:57 Kyle, I don't know if you know this, you probably do, but the ethnic group in America

17:02 that's killing themselves the fastest or white men over 50, there is a lot of suppression

17:09 going on.

17:10 Like as men, we're taught, don't cry.

17:13 However, I cried all the time as a football player when you win a game, but like in the

17:18 real stuff of like, don't cry, be tough, don't share your emotions, and we're killing ourselves,

17:23 right?

17:24 And so in my 40s, I was like, you know what, I need to come to grips with this happened

17:29 to me, but Jesus is greater.

17:32 I went through this, but Jesus is greater.

17:36 If I could summarize it this way, Kyle, it's this, what was sent to break me Jesus used

17:44 to make me?

17:46 What was meant for evil, God turned into good.

17:50 And so in the world of what's called epigenetics, whatever the mom goes through and utero's

17:56 was a grandmother, it's passed down to the child.

18:00 And I mean, it's really a form of original sin, right?

18:03 But once you allow God to grab a hold of that junk, it turns into a superpower.

18:09 So I'm the first male in my family over 20 to graduate.

18:13 I got a doctorate.

18:14 I've written nine books, I'm a compulsive stutter.

18:17 I speak, I'm going into 33 years of marriage.

18:21 How does that take place like God reaches into our mess?

18:26 And if we allow him, he'll turn us into a masterpiece.

18:30 Is it hard?

18:31 Yeah.

18:32 But as men, we're created to do hard things.

18:34 Hard is not bad.

18:35 Like we don't want easy, like, like, like, for me to bench press 400 pounds in the NFL,

18:40 that was hard.

18:43 Easy is not what we're designed for.

18:46 Hard is what makes us into the men that God has created us to be at hard.

18:51 Everything isn't soft.

18:53 Like, for some reason, love has gotten turned into something as soft.

18:57 When Jesus carried across bloodied and just utterly obliterated, that's not soft.

19:04 When Jesus could have come down off of a cross, could have called 12,000 angels at any time.

19:09 It wasn't nails that held the creator of the universe's hands on a piece of wood.

19:14 It was love.

19:15 Love is strong.

19:16 Love is ferocious.

19:17 So, man, I allowed that love to light up those areas.

19:22 And I think God in His grace, like a good father, gave me time to mature so I could

19:27 handle it.

19:29 But I'm stronger, I'm better for it.

19:32 And yeah, man, I'm grateful.

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21:33 Well, Derwin, the maturity, I think, is a key because one of the things that are problems

21:37 in a lot of households, right, so the fatherlessness epidemic is obviously run rampant.

21:44 There's different community.

21:45 I mean, fatherlessness in every single ethnic cohort except for Asian Americans has skyrocketed

21:53 since the 1960s and '70s, okay?

21:55 But kids are always looking for that role model, that person that's like, "Look, you

22:00 little idiot.

22:01 You're not going to do that anymore.

22:03 This is how we're going to act.

22:04 This is how we're going to comport ourselves."

22:06 And especially little boys, we respond to that.

22:09 If you talk like that to a little girl, it's maybe not going to always go well.

22:13 But for you, you talk about football being your way out of your bad upbringing.

22:16 You mentioned obviously getting a scholarship to BYU, getting drafted to the NFL, and we'll

22:20 go to that here in a second.

22:21 But you mentioned two coaches.

22:23 You mentioned them quite a bit.

22:24 So that's Coach Rutledge and Coach Sullivan as two guys that gave you some perspective,

22:29 but also gave you some guidance because you will get perspective by a butt chewing, right?

22:34 So you could get chewed out back in the day.

22:37 You could get disciplined by somebody on two streets away, right?

22:40 And now that would be considered child abuse and you'd go to prison.

22:44 But you would get perspective, but then it's not really guidance.

22:49 It's kind of like if I get on you for something, but I don't show you the way to something

22:52 better, then what exactly am I doing?

22:54 So what was it about the approach of those two coaches that had such an impact on you?

22:59 You know, culturally, once again, I think you'd go into pendulum swings, right?

23:05 So our coach, D.W. Rutledge, Converse Judson High High School, Texas State Power, he's

23:14 a Hall of Fame coach, they coached us to be men.

23:21 Now we knew they loved us, but they loved us enough to bring the best out of us.

23:28 They loved us enough, like we would go through what's called boot camp.

23:33 And man, I was formed and forged in boot camp.

23:38 Coaches were intense, details, execution, teamwork, study habits, coach Sullivan, my

23:46 defensive coordinator and D.B. coach.

23:49 So senior year of high school, I decided to miss practice because I was filling myself.

23:56 I was the team, I was the man, and I'm like, you know what, I don't want to go to practice

24:00 today.

24:01 So I show up the next day.

24:02 I'm four string coaches don't say anything.

24:04 So we go into the game, Kyle, we win 45 nothing.

24:08 They don't need me.

24:10 So keep this in mind, my senior year on our defense, 10 out of the 11 guys went Division

24:16 1, three of us played in NFL.

24:17 They didn't need me.

24:18 So the next week of practice coach calls me up, coach sits me down and he starts crying,

24:27 which I'm like, oh boy, and he looks at me and he says, do we?

24:32 You have the potential to be great, but I'm not going to let you play on this team.

24:38 If you don't give me everything you got, I've got your future right here.

24:44 What are you going to do about it?

24:46 Man, that we could practice.

24:49 I was destroying my teammates.

24:51 Let's go from a, I went from a good player to it was like Superman, then Friday comes

24:59 up, we're playing a school called East Central and they threw the ball of tons.

25:04 The first team defense goes out and I'm still on the bench.

25:07 And I'm like, well, I guess I'll fill those papers out for the Marines.

25:11 I'm getting the hell out of here where I'm at, but I'm going to the two Marines.

25:17 And the next play coach, some of them says, do we get in the game, man?

25:22 I ran in that game, bro.

25:27 It was, I was destroying East Central.

25:31 I had a dude so hard I knocked him under the bench.

25:34 I mean, it was just pure violence.

25:38 And at the end of the year, I became an all state football player.

25:44 And coach Sullivan saw in me, what I didn't see in myself, he would not allow me not to

25:50 be great.

25:51 Now here's what's important.

25:53 He didn't force me though.

25:55 He invited me to step into the challenge.

25:57 That's right.

25:59 He invited me to step into the challenge.

26:00 Now let's fast forward though, so that was 1988 and then in 1998, I signed with the Carolina

26:09 Panthers.

26:10 I called coach Sullivan to talk to him and he wants to talk about football.

26:15 And I say to him, I said, say coach, I don't want to talk about football.

26:18 I want to tell you that I've come to know Jesus and I and I share my testimony with him

26:23 how I came to Christ and it was silence and he goes, I need you to come to Texas.

26:28 So I go to Texas, I speak to some kids in his class and then we go into his office and

26:35 the roles are reversed.

26:38 And he starts crying again and he says, son, I need you to coach me in the spiritual life,

26:44 the way I coached you in football.

26:46 How can I know Jesus?

26:49 And I led coach Sullivan to Christ in that moment.

26:55 And every time we talk, every time I talk to coach, relage, we say this, I love you.

27:02 And they all say, I'm proud of you, son.

27:05 Man, I remember reading you talking about that in the book, which again, I promise we'll

27:11 get to here in just a second and being like, what a full circle moment.

27:14 It was literally a full circle moment where you're in this relationship where there's

27:19 no reciprocity really.

27:21 It's all like kind of a give relationship, but I love the quote, step into the challenge.

27:26 He welcomed you to step into the challenge and that was a really, really big deal.

27:30 But guys that are kind of wired like you and I, we always understand when we have a deficit

27:35 with somebody.

27:36 So if somebody's giving a lot to us, we know that this is not a game of making things equal,

27:42 but we want to be able to give back, but you never think that someone has a tremendously

27:47 huge impact on you, that you will ever have the opportunity to give back to them in a

27:51 way that would be even equal at all.

27:54 And again, you, you didn't, you know, give him salvation, but you helped him see it.

27:58 And that's the important thing with your story as well.

28:01 So yeah, all stater, state champion, you go to BYU on scholarship.

28:05 You get drafted in 1993, but it was a naked dude that led you or helped lead you to Christ.

28:13 So I think we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about that because we're talking about all

28:17 of this, you know, good, you know, high food and things.

28:19 But a guy that, you know, was just kind of swinging around the locker room.

28:22 That's the guy to help lead you to Christ.

28:24 So let's, let's start there.

28:25 Let's go there.

28:26 Yeah, man.

28:27 So 1993 I'm drafted by the Colts and I noticed after practice this dude on the team, he's got

28:36 a towel around his waist with his Bible and he's going to my teammates and he's like,

28:41 do you know Jesus in my mind, I'm going, pro, do you know you have naked?

28:46 So I asked the veterans on the team, I was like, what's up with the half naked black

28:49 man talking about Jesus.

28:52 And they say, don't pay no attention to him.

28:53 That's the naked preacher.

28:55 So his real name was Steve Grant, but his nickname was the naked preacher.

28:59 At this time, I was not interested in faith, I didn't, that didn't, didn't care.

29:05 I just did not want to be bothered by the naked dude, right?

29:09 So one day I'm sitting in my locker and he says a rookie degree, do you know Jesus?

29:14 And like most people who don't know Jesus, I gave him my resume.

29:18 I said all the things I didn't do, all the things that I did do.

29:21 And he said, you know, our comparison is not with other people.

29:26 Our comparison is with God and God is the standard.

29:29 I said, well, what can I do?

29:30 He goes, you can't do anything.

29:33 You're under judgment, but Jesus came to meet the standard for you.

29:36 It's called sinless.

29:37 Jesus came to take your sin from you.

29:39 It's called his sacrifice on a cross and Jesus came to live in you to give you new life.

29:44 It's called the resurrection.

29:47 So that began a five year process of me becoming an NFL team captain.

29:53 I've got a beautiful wife.

29:54 I've got everything that I wanted.

29:56 But at the end of that third year, I'm going, there's got to be more because the NFL stands

30:02 for not for long.

30:03 Who would I be when my career was over?

30:05 There was so much fear there.

30:06 I couldn't love my wife the way she deserved the love because I don't love myself.

30:11 I live with anger and bitterness towards my dad.

30:15 I was, man, I had a lot of bitterness, a lot of rage.

30:19 And I knew there were things I needed to be forgiven from as well.

30:23 So for five years, he's sharing his faith with me.

30:26 And then on August 2nd, 1997, in a small dorm room in Anderson, Indiana, my fifth year in

30:32 NFL with the Colts training camp.

30:35 I'm leaving lunchtime and my heart is just open.

30:39 My soul is just open.

30:41 And I get to my dorm room and I call my wife and I said, I want to be more committed to

30:44 you.

30:46 And I want to be committed to Jesus.

30:48 And Kyle, that's, that's when I was reborn.

30:50 That's when I was born again.

30:51 That's when Jesus came into my life.

30:53 That's when Jesus consumed me.

30:55 But the overarching presence I felt was love.

31:00 Now, for my story, my whole life of receiving love was predicated upon how fast are you?

31:09 How far are you?

31:10 How high can you jump?

31:12 Performance.

31:13 And for the first time someone said, I saw your performance, it actually sucks.

31:18 You're actually a sinner, but I love you anyway.

31:21 And I want you.

31:22 And it's my love that's going to transform you.

31:25 And man, it blew me away.

31:26 And I haven't gotten over that.

31:27 I have not gotten over the love of Jesus Christ.

31:31 His love has turned me into someone that I never ever thought was possible.

31:35 I grew up as a compulsive stutterer.

31:37 What am I doing on the number one man's podcast in the world as a compulsive stutterer?

31:42 Only God can do that.

31:44 Like, I'm a preacher.

31:45 Only God can do those types of things.

31:47 And it's his love that does it.

31:49 Well, and one of the sweetest things about the gospel is one of the things that drives

31:54 someone like me, a highly conscientious person insane, it's that you can't work hard enough

32:00 to get yourself right.

32:02 You can't do it.

32:03 It's impossible because here's the thing that drove me nuts is because look, dude, I'm

32:06 510, 185 pounds in high school.

32:07 I was 510 170.

32:08 I was like, all right, I guess I'm not going to major league baseball because that's not

32:12 really something you don't really see professional baseball players that are that big.

32:15 But I was surrounded by these incredible athletes.

32:18 And a lot of them during when didn't give a crap, like they didn't work hard because they

32:23 were just good.

32:24 They didn't work hard at getting faster because they're already fast.

32:27 Why do I need to be faster?

32:28 I'm already fast.

32:29 And most of these people flamed out, you know, they, they didn't really get the opportunities

32:33 that they hadn't always drove a guy like me nuts because I had a hustle, right?

32:36 I had to really, really go after it.

32:39 And so I've got this internal angst that I constantly have to perform.

32:42 I constantly have to, you know, if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing.

32:45 But you can't do or overdo the gospel because it has nothing to do with you.

32:50 Your role is you bring your sin to the equation and you, you, you turn and repent from that

32:55 sin and put your faith in Christ.

32:57 And so for you, you know, you didn't just rely on this NFL career or then, Hey, I'm

33:02 going to go into broadcasting later.

33:04 Hey, I'm just going to go into coaching.

33:05 Nothing wrong with those things.

33:06 Obviously.

33:07 But you obviously go into ministry.

33:08 You become a pastor, obviously you've written a lot of books and you wrote a book, which

33:12 guys, if you're listening to this right now, it is out now, it is in the show notes.

33:16 You can pick it up right now from Amazon.

33:18 Go to the show notes, you can check out the link there, but it's lit up with love becoming

33:22 good news people to a gospel starved world.

33:25 I love that subtitle there.

33:27 The first words of the book during our, I want to tell you about a new city, okay?

33:33 And so I guess for you, let's just, let's go 30,000 foot overview and then we'll start

33:36 really digging in here.

33:37 But why this book?

33:38 Why you?

33:39 Why now?

33:40 Yeah.

33:41 The book in 2019, I saw a statistic that said 3,500 local churches shut their doors.

33:49 So that was before COVID and about the same time I was looking at how much God had blessed

33:56 our church and how much he's blessing transformation church.

33:59 And I sense the Lord say, well, my blessing isn't just for you.

34:03 How can you help other Christians become more passionate about sharing Jesus?

34:11 And so little with love flowed out of that.

34:14 But here's the problem though, in my opinion, most books on evangelism are all about techniques

34:21 of how to sell Jesus.

34:24 Yeah.

34:25 Little with love starts with this overwhelming picture of not how much we love God, but how

34:32 much God loves us.

34:35 When a man taps into the depth of his father's love for him, he'll never be the same.

34:42 And then the book, the second part moves into what happens to us on the inside.

34:48 What does it mean that the father is our good shepherd?

34:51 What does it mean that Jesus gave his life force to give his life to us to give his life

34:55 through us?

34:56 Then lastly, it's now how do we become people who joined Jesus on his mission to be able

35:04 to share the gospel, right?

35:07 Because the world is lacking this.

35:11 Listen, America has money.

35:16 There's a lot.

35:17 But what we don't have is love, like we share our favorite football teams.

35:23 We share all this other stuff.

35:25 We share our political persuasions.

35:28 I want to be a part of a generation of men, like men that poured into me to come to know

35:34 Jesus.

35:35 I want to see thousands, hundreds of thousands of men mobilize that other men look at them

35:41 and go, wow, there's something different about you.

35:45 And that's the Holy Spirit's power emanating from you.

35:49 That's just like the sun has sun raised.

35:52 The rays aren't the sun, but the rays flow from the sun.

35:55 Well, when the son of God is in us, his rays of grace flow from us.

36:00 And I want to say a lot of men, I'm going to preach just a little bit.

36:03 Let's go preach.

36:04 I want to see a lot of men.

36:06 I want to see hundreds of thousands of men not wake up and say, okay, how do I not watch

36:11 porn today?

36:12 How do I not do this today?

36:14 How do I not lust today?

36:15 How do I?

36:16 How do I?

36:17 How do I?

36:18 I want to get rid of how do I?

36:19 And I want men to wake up saying, Oh my God, Jesus is the greatest treasure there is.

36:28 Jesus has made me righteous.

36:30 Jesus has made me a son of God.

36:32 Jesus has made me a temple of the Holy Spirit.

36:35 Jesus is in me.

36:37 There's nothing I can't do today because the resurrected King is in me.

36:42 We have a Christianity that deals with behavior modification instead of Christ's exaltation

36:48 that flows from worship in his father and surrenderance to the Holy Spirit's power.

36:52 And when that happens, you'll be a great husband, you'll be a great father and you'll

36:59 begin to see that your job is your mission field, that there are other broken hearted

37:05 men around you with the facade of being tough around you that needs a father's heart and

37:11 their heart.

37:12 Derwin, it's getting a little hot in here.

37:15 Okay.

37:16 We got another half hour of this.

37:17 You're going to have to like chill out a little bit.

37:19 Okay.

37:20 So like, you know, I don't see your sweat towel nearby.

37:22 So like let's let's temper our expectations just a little bit.

37:25 I think part of our, I mean, obviously I co-sign every single thing that you just said, part

37:31 of the issue is something that didn't really become apparent to me really into these last

37:35 few years.

37:36 It's this extreme lack of discipleship.

37:39 You talk about a gospel star of the world.

37:41 I want to read this quote from chapter one of the book.

37:44 When you're lit up with love, you know that evangelism and discipleship must be integrated.

37:48 Jesus commanded his followers to go and make disciples, not just converts.

37:52 A disciple is an apprentice of a master teacher, Jesus is the master teacher.

37:57 And those of us who follow him are his apprentices, disciples of Jesus choose to follow him, learning

38:03 how to be a citizen of the kingdom of God through God's power, Jesus shares his life

38:07 and power with his people so that they can become a living portrait of him.

38:11 That means we don't check off a box on our to do list and move on when someone makes

38:15 a profession of faith.

38:17 Our calling as Christians is to walk alongside others as they grow, helping them increasingly

38:21 learn to live in the power of the Holy Spirit.

38:24 So a lot of people taking lost shots at mega churches.

38:27 Yours truly included, okay, because part of the problem that I see is you will see these

38:32 large churches that love to count the hands that are raised after the TED talk in the

38:37 rock concert and they're moved by the piano music.

38:40 They raise their hand and they count those and they put them in their annual report at

38:43 the end of the year for their, you know, investors or for the people that either, whatever the

38:47 thing is, right?

38:49 But a lot of those people are not showing any fruit or any evidence of salvation years

38:54 down the road because they have not been put into a pipeline of sanctification or a pipeline

39:00 of discipleship.

39:01 I wasn't as a 15 year old going to church by myself because no one in my family went to

39:05 church.

39:06 That's what I experienced.

39:07 I became a Christian and now it's like, shoot, I'm trying to figure out what it means to

39:10 be a man.

39:11 I'm trying to figure out what it means to be a Christian man and I came to the decision

39:13 because I was basically a chimp at that point that those are just not the same thing that

39:18 all the manly men are outside the church doing man stuff and all the godly men are inside

39:21 the church, giving you limp handshakes, touching you while they talk to you awkwardly, wearing

39:25 khakis like that was the thing I saw the dichotomy.

39:29 But that's why someone like Joby is such a unicorn because how can you have a church

39:33 that's a multi site and have all these people and all these great big things, but also you

39:38 still care about discipleship is not just about raising your hand.

39:41 It's not just about your quote unquote decision, you know, depending on your theological persuasion,

39:45 but it's about the actual process of discipleship while constantly reminding yourself about the

39:51 truth and reality of the gospel.

39:53 Why is it that churches have been around for a couple of thousand years and we still can't

39:56 crack the code on discipleship?

39:58 Yeah.

39:59 Yeah.

40:00 So I feel a lot of what you're saying, Kyle, and so let me let me take a step back because

40:06 there are moments when I just get frustrated, right?

40:11 And when I get frustrated, I go back and I read Paul's letters.

40:16 So let's keep this in mind.

40:18 Everyone of Paul's letters that he writes to churches is because they're not getting

40:24 it right.

40:26 They're letters of rebuke, letters of exhortation, letters of correction, letters of teaching.

40:32 That's what secondly, he's not writing to mega churches.

40:37 He's writing to house churches of 15 to 20 people.

40:43 Yeah.

40:44 So people will go, man, we did churches too big.

40:46 I'm like, you realize Paul was writing a small churches and they were a wreck.

40:51 Big or small is not the issue.

40:54 That's not the issue at all.

40:56 Because Jesus didn't say go there for and don't reach as many people as possible, right?

41:02 Try to reach as many reach all people, all nations, right?

41:05 So let's take a step to the back.

41:07 There should be a discipleship pathway.

41:11 So like in our church, transformation church, we have a disciple making culture.

41:17 We have worked hard on what is it that a disciple does?

41:21 Worship, connect, serve, give and invite.

41:25 You know, worship, Sunday attendance is important, right?

41:28 That is, that is, that is a part of it, but your job is worship as well.

41:33 Act in groups, read the Bible, pray together, serve together, financial generosity is a part

41:39 of discipleship.

41:40 And then last, the invite is living a life of a missionary.

41:43 Go and tell the gospel, bring people to hear the gospel, right?

41:48 So there are five rhythms and practices.

41:51 So when we do, when someone professes faith, we get their information immediately, we begin,

41:57 we send them a document.

41:58 What does it mean to be in Christ?

42:01 Then we say, okay, get in the newcomers, we baptize you.

42:04 So there's a pathway, but here's the problem that I find, Kyle, and this is the part that

42:09 frustrates me is not everybody wants to participate.

42:13 It's like you will chase people down and are like, nope.

42:18 And so what I've learned to do is who wants to do it?

42:25 You create avenues and pathways and you help them the best that you can.

42:29 So when I came to faith, I was asking people, like, how do you read, read the Bible?

42:35 How do you show your faith?

42:37 How do you do those things?

42:38 And so a toothless preacher told me back in 2001, son, sometimes the people just got

42:45 to want to.

42:46 And so yes, there are some movements that are not healthy because not everything big is

42:54 healthy, right?

42:55 And there are some movements, Joby's Church, our church, that are big, that are healthy.

43:01 But yes, back to what you're saying is I am a football coach disguised as a pastor.

43:08 They're the players.

43:09 I'm a player coach as well.

43:11 And our goal is to equip them in a gospel so they can play the game at the end of every

43:16 service.

43:17 This is what we say.

43:18 We say, upward, inward, outward, transformers, roll out, upward stance, we love God, love

43:23 your neighbor, and we're transformers getting ready to roll out because Sunday is just a

43:28 huddle to now go play the game throughout the week.

43:32 And so yes, this is what I find with men is I find a lot of men want to be more disciple

43:41 to do their jobs more than they want to be disciples of Jesus.

43:45 And they have to see that they're not mutually exclusive.

43:50 Your job is worship.

43:52 That's your mission field.

43:54 And so your prayer, your study, you're learning, you're growing.

43:58 And then Kyle, there's a lot of men who don't like to be jacked up, who don't like to be

44:04 told they're wrong.

44:06 My mentor who passed the way, one of them early in ministry, I was out traveling and

44:12 speaking.

44:13 The kids were young at that time.

44:14 I came back home and I kissed my wife, kissed the kids immediately went upstairs, made a

44:19 bowl of ice cream.

44:20 And my wife walks in like, what are you doing?

44:22 And I'm like, I'm resting.

44:24 She's like, wait a minute.

44:25 I need help.

44:26 I've been here for three days with these two kids and I'm like, well, I've done my job.

44:30 And so I'm like, well, we're going to call our mentor.

44:32 So we call him on the phone, I explain it to him.

44:35 It's on speaker.

44:36 And he says, son, if you do in ministry, makes you too tired to do your most important ministry,

44:44 which is to love your wife and serve your kids, then you need to stop going out speaking.

44:50 Because your first ministry is in your home.

44:54 Kyle, I was so mad that I knew he was so right and it changed the trajectory of our marriage

45:02 and our life that my first ministry besides receiving the love of Christ is my wife and

45:09 my kids.

45:10 And it shaped us, man, we need other men who we're willing to go.

45:14 You know what, man?

45:15 You're right.

45:16 I don't see a whole bunch of men who are willing to be mentored and coached at that level.

45:24 I think you're absolutely right.

45:25 I got a few things.

45:26 I need to mention number one.

45:27 All I can think about is eating a big bowl of ice cream now.

45:29 So thanks a lot for that.

45:31 Number two, you talk about that in your entire chapter seven basically talks about, hey,

45:36 we're missionaries when you're lit up with love, you know, your career is a conduit of

45:39 your calling, which is missionary.

45:41 That was a quote directly from that.

45:43 And also I was reminded when you were talking about things that are big and people automatically

45:47 think big is healthy.

45:49 I was reminded of a guy named Eddie Hall.

45:51 He's a former world strongest man.

45:53 He was the first guy to lift to deadlift 500 kilograms.

45:56 So that's well over a thousand pounds.

45:57 He almost killed himself on the process.

45:59 But when he was at his biggest, he was at his most unhealthy.

46:03 Like his doctors were like, you're the strongest man in the world and you're too big.

46:08 But in order to be the strongest man, you have to have all this mass.

46:11 You have too much, you have too much weight and too much strain on your internal organs.

46:15 I've heard about, you know, lineman in the NFL that are having to eat bags of groceries

46:20 because they're naturally smaller bodied people, but they're having to keep this weight on

46:24 so that they don't get pushed around by defensive tackles.

46:27 And it's just kind of one of those deals where just because you're big doesn't automatically

46:30 mean you're healthy, you might just be big.

46:33 There's plenty of big ministries in this country that have nothing to do with a biblical

46:36 ethic, nothing to do with the gospel.

46:38 It's all just feel good stuff, but I think part of the reason, there's a lot of reasons.

46:43 This is don't worry.

46:44 We're going to dig in more on men here in just a second, but in chapter four of your book,

46:48 you elucidate the concept of the fact that we are just flat out exhausted in modernity.

46:53 Okay.

46:54 So I want to read a quote here, teenagers are tired, college students are tired, young

46:58 adults are tired, middle age people are tired, older people are tired, everybody's tired.

47:04 People think my job will give me green pastures.

47:07 It will not people believe my money will give me quiet waters.

47:11 It will not people are tired because wolves are relentlessly chasing them toxic behaviors

47:17 that poison their relationships, comparison that steals their joy, fear of an uncertain

47:21 future, which increases their anxiety and unintended pain that re injures their souls.

47:27 Like sheep, people need guidance and protection.

47:29 Like sheep, people need nourishment and rest.

47:32 Like sheep, people need a loving shepherd.

47:35 But here's the thing, man, I got FOMO.

47:38 I need to be doom scrolling every single night because what if I missed that one story that's

47:42 going to cause me to come up with this one tweet or this one Instagram post that's going

47:46 to lead me to going viral, which is going to change the entire trajectory and become this

47:50 big top of funnel thing for my ministry.

47:52 I got to be there.

47:53 I've got to constantly be consuming content.

47:55 I got to constantly be moving because what if I don't and what if this doesn't get done

47:59 and what if this accomplishment, that's everybody.

48:02 And we've got these mega devices in our pockets, these super computers, that people aren't

48:07 using it to become biblically literate.

48:09 They're not using it to become historically accurate in the things that they say.

48:13 They're using it as the super comparison tool because they're on Instagram looking at all

48:17 the girls that they wish they looked like when they woke up, even though those girls don't

48:21 look like that when they wake up, they're looking at all the guys with the extra row

48:24 of abs, not realizing that they're on an extreme amount of trend of ball and different things

48:28 like that in order to look that way on Instagram.

48:31 And so we're using these amazing devices, which could be used for gospel purposes so

48:36 that we can compare ourselves to people, which is exhausting us because we can't win that

48:40 race.

48:41 So talk to me about the fact that we're so worn out.

48:44 Yeah, man, you know, let me just let me add to this.

48:48 Be careful with going viral because you may actually get a virus and that virus is idolatry.

48:56 And what you just described, the FOMO fear of missing out is it's really idolatry.

49:03 And it's really, I want to be seen.

49:06 I want to be known.

49:08 If God the Father seeing you and Jesus knowing you and the Holy Spirit being with you is

49:13 not enough, the whole world shouting your name will never be enough.

49:19 And so in chapter four, man, that just flows out of pastoral work and pastoral angst is

49:26 I see a lot of millennials, man.

49:29 And I get it, millennials grew up when the subprime fiasco took place and their parents

49:34 lost homes and businesses and the market collapse.

49:37 And so they've got all these side hustles and they're doing and doing and doing and doing

49:41 and they're not trusting God to provide.

49:44 They're asking God to bless their frantic efforts.

49:48 It's not for his glory.

49:51 It's their hustle's glory.

49:53 And so what I do is I move people and I bring them back to Psalm 23.

50:00 The Lord is my shepherd.

50:02 I shall not want.

50:03 He makes me lie down in green pastures.

50:05 He leads me to quiet waters.

50:07 He renews my soul.

50:09 He takes me down the path of righteousness for his name's sake.

50:12 Even though I walk to the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for he is with

50:16 me is riding the staff.

50:17 They comfort me.

50:18 He makes me a table in the midst of my enemies.

50:20 He anoints my head with oil, my cup overflows.

50:24 Surely goodness and mercy would follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in

50:28 the house of the Lord forever.

50:30 And so what I do is I walk people through Psalm 23 that one of the beautiful aspects of

50:39 the cross of the resurrection of Jesus is we don't have to strive anymore.

50:46 We don't have to strive to impress people.

50:50 We don't have to strive to provide.

50:53 We now live from the resources of another.

50:57 So let me pause because I know there's some men going, what does that mean to, no, no,

51:01 that we just sit around and do nothing?

51:03 No, it doesn't.

51:05 Here's what it means is when you and I learned to trust a good shepherd, we will be more productive

51:12 than we ever thought.

51:14 I wrote, let up with love in seven weeks.

51:17 I wrote a whole book in seven weeks.

51:20 I serve and lead an incredible church.

51:24 I do a lot of stuff, but I'm able to do those things because I'm living from approval, not

51:31 for approval.

51:33 I'm living from grace, not grace.

51:37 I'm living from power, not to get power.

51:41 I'm learning how to abide so God can live through me.

51:47 And so this is not only spiritual formation for us.

51:50 So when you reach chapter four, you will be emboldened in your faith, but you will also

51:56 be able to reach a tired culture with the gospel.

52:03 One of the great things about being an American.

52:06 So my great, great, great, great grandfather, Moses Davis fought in the Civil War for the

52:14 Union against the Confederacy.

52:17 So in my blood is patriotism.

52:20 I love my country.

52:22 And one of the things that I love about being an American is like we get stuff done, like

52:29 we get stuff done, like we get stuff done.

52:33 The problem is it can be very individualistic and very independent of God.

52:42 And so something that is a blessing can turn into a curse if we don't stop to say, Lord,

52:48 I know there are things you want me to do today, but I have to do it from a place of

52:54 I'm loved by you.

52:55 I am your son.

52:57 It is the Holy Spirit's power.

52:59 So Lord, it's your glory, not mine.

53:03 And so yeah, man, I think our mental health crisis in the United States flows from this

53:08 frantic, frayed pace of life that we live, these devices, right?

53:14 These devices, they're not evil, but they can be if we use them improperly.

53:20 And so chapter four really teaches us to rest in Psalm 23 and in Psalm 23, the six names

53:28 of God in the Old Testament are explained in every line of Psalm 23.

53:35 I love that you went into that because what all this is leading to, which really what

53:39 I would say is the entire crux of the book, which is pushing us towards evangelism.

53:44 Like if you believe this, because I've heard atheists say this, like guys, if you actually

53:47 believe this, if you actually believe that a Middle Eastern Jewish carpenter 2000 years

53:51 ago was killed by the Romans on a Roman cross at the behest of the Jewish Sanhedrin, and

53:57 he was put in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb.

53:58 And then three days later, we all realized it was a borrowed tomb because he was resurrected

54:02 for the dead, for the payment of our sin debt.

54:04 Don't you think you would frickin tell somebody, but we have so many people that don't do

54:07 that.

54:08 And it's there's a lot of different reasons for that.

54:10 But part of it is because we are terrified to get objections.

54:13 So I have a very, I got a very contentious spirit.

54:18 Okay.

54:19 So I actually like arguing with people.

54:20 I like kind of like pushing people and needling people a little bit, like when people train

54:25 with me, when they physically train with me, I know it's their minds that are weak, not

54:28 always their bodies.

54:29 A lot of times it's both, but you'll have someone doing a wall sitting there, like,

54:33 I'm not going to be able to do it, but I'm not going to be able to do it.

54:35 And then they fall to the ground and then I get over there and I go, right.

54:38 And I go get up and it's a miracle.

54:41 My words have magical powers.

54:43 Boom.

54:44 They get right back up into a 90 degree angle with their back against the wall.

54:47 It's crazy, right?

54:49 But people are just terrified of getting an objection and one of the biggest objections

54:53 that people don't really know how to reckon with is the problem of evil.

54:57 And you talked about a personal trainer, a buddy of yours named Matt, that that was his

55:01 biggest hang up.

55:02 Like how could a good God exist if all these bad things happen to good people?

55:07 And again, you have to kind of peel back the layers.

55:09 What do you mean by good?

55:11 What do you mean by bad?

55:12 You know, what do you mean by deserve?

55:13 All that type of stuff.

55:14 But for you as a pastor in your role and the things that you've done, you've dealt with

55:18 that objection quite a bit.

55:20 How would you coach them in my audience, the folks in my audience, about 5% of ladies,

55:24 we're glad y'all are here.

55:25 When they get that objection out in the wild, which is like, you know, how could there be

55:29 a good God with all this background?

55:31 Yeah.

55:32 You know, so the first thing that I would do because for a lot of men, the first thing

55:36 is, okay, let me, let me go into defense mode, let me, let me, let me go into fight mode.

55:41 And I think what we need to do is go into curiosity mode and say, you know, tell me,

55:47 so like, what happened to you, right?

55:51 And so once you get into what happened to you, I think the next step is then you begin

55:57 to move into, well, here's what's happened to me in my life.

56:02 And here's how God has reversed that in my life.

56:06 And then thirdly, if they're willing, is you go into biblical stories.

56:12 But ultimately the fourth step is you say things like, you know, in order to know if

56:17 something, and this is what I did with Matt, is I said to Matt, the atheist, I said, bro,

56:23 in order for you to know that something is bad, there has to be a standard of good.

56:28 If there's a standard of good, it has to come from a person who gave that standard.

56:35 And so as an atheist, naturalistic Darwinian philosophy, nihilism, nothing matters, can't

56:43 come up with something that's good.

56:45 So whenever you say there's evil in the world and it's bad, you're crying for the God of

56:50 justice to do something about it.

56:53 And guess what?

56:54 He actually did.

56:57 His name is Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus on the cross took every injustice and sin upon

57:03 himself, and he rose again, because one day, all things are going to be sad and untrue.

57:11 But until that day, he can come live in you to give a foretaste of what that beautiful

57:17 day is going to be like.

57:20 And then after you get to that point and you build relationship, one of the things that

57:24 often say to people is, you know, you're asking the wrong question when you say, why would

57:29 if God is all loving, you know, a powerful, wiser, evil and suffering, I think the better

57:34 question is this, why would an all powerful, all loving God come to an earth to save people

57:40 who enslave each other, who are racist, who are sex trafficking, who are greedy, who pollute

57:46 his creation, why in the world would that type of God come and try to save people from

57:52 his wrath?

57:53 It's because he's loving and not only will he save you from his wrath, he will then commission

57:58 you to be a part of his project of shining light into the darkness.

58:04 You know, it's funny.

58:05 Like we love to put God on trial, but let's put ourselves on trial.

58:08 Like who are who are we to put God on trial?

58:11 Like we're the ones on trial and the judge himself becomes a savior.

58:15 Whoo, my God, I got saved again, Kyle.

58:19 Hey, dude, I like how no matter where I take you, I can ask you about what your favorite

58:23 flavor of Doritos are.

58:24 And I know we're going to get back to the gospel.

58:26 So I just love it.

58:27 So you talk about all these barriers and, you know, in the book, you elucidate six of

58:32 them, the barrier of method, fear, inadequacy, indifference, shame and time.

58:36 But I want to key in on the barrier of pluralism.

58:39 Okay.

58:40 So I'll read a quote from the book here.

58:42 America was founded on religious freedom and religious pluralism.

58:45 People are free to choose which religion they want to follow living in a land with so many

58:49 spiritual options.

58:50 Well, what can we learn from the early church about being everyday missionaries in a pluralist

58:55 society?

58:56 Okay.

58:57 So early church, Roman dominated culture.

58:59 Oh, sure.

59:00 We'll just add Jesus to our pantheon of gods.

59:02 We have anyway, no big deal.

59:03 That's what people run into when you're doing missionary work in places like India.

59:06 It's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll take on Jesus.

59:08 We've got all these other deities like who cares.

59:10 And so the issue that we have is we not only have a biblically illiterate culture.

59:15 We also have a constitutionally illiterate culture because you have morons on the left

59:19 and the right that'll say things like the separation of church and state as if it were

59:22 in the constitution, not realizing that it's not in the constitution.

59:25 It was in a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote, basically saying we're not worried about the

59:29 church, you know, infecting the state, we're worried about the opposite, the state infecting

59:33 the church.

59:34 And we got to keep that, you know, we got to keep that out, right?

59:36 But we have this society where one of the number one quotes you get is, Oh, I'm not religious,

59:41 but I'm spiritual.

59:42 And people wear that like a virtue signaling badge of honor.

59:45 My favorite question asked back is, well, demons are spirits as well.

59:48 So can you be more specific?

59:50 And so it's like, what, what do you mean by I'm spiritual?

59:53 Do you hook your ponytail to a tree when you're doing yoga?

59:56 Like what, what are we doing here?

59:58 And so for you, what can we learn from the early church about dealing with a pluralistic

1:00:03 society?

1:00:04 Okay, I'm still, I'm still laughing about the image that you just gave.

1:00:09 It's a funny one.

1:00:10 Right.

1:00:11 So it's, yes, it is, but, but I went down recommended though, Kyle, I would eventually

1:00:17 I would get to, to that, but yes, so this is, this is what I've learned to do, right?

1:00:23 So I think number, number, number one, I'll give you a real live example from like last

1:00:28 week.

1:00:29 So there's a coffee shop I go to twice a week.

1:00:33 And that coffee shop, I've been doing it for 15 years.

1:00:35 I walk in and I pray God bring people to me that don't know you.

1:00:39 And over the last 15 or so years, there's been hundreds of thousands of gospel conversations,

1:00:44 multiple people have come to Christ, people have been baptized.

1:00:48 So this one lady, she comes and we're talking and she's literally a new age, transcendental

1:00:58 meditation.

1:00:59 She's a mystic.

1:01:00 And so, you know, we're, we're talking and she's like, yeah, you know, I read your book

1:01:06 and I liked your stories in the book and they were nice, but you believe Jesus is the only

1:01:10 way, right?

1:01:11 I said, well, I believe that because Jesus said it and his life, resume and bio says

1:01:19 that he's the only way to God, he goes, well, you know, I'm a little bit broader than that.

1:01:24 And, you know, God is within me and spiritual and, and I said, okay, so I said, I'm just

1:01:31 curious, help me understand what this God is.

1:01:36 And I said, well, like, tell me what about judgment is there judgment for evil?

1:01:41 And she goes, no, you know, we all just go back to the light and I said, man, I sure would

1:01:48 hate to tell Jews whose family members were murdered by the Nazis that Hitler's back

1:01:56 in a light.

1:01:57 And I said, you know, for my ancestors that were brought to this country in the bottom

1:02:03 of ships and enslaved and raped and tortured, I sure would hate to tell them, no, you just

1:02:08 do it when you go back to the light.

1:02:10 And then she started to backpack, she was, well, you know, well, you know, there is karma.

1:02:16 I said, well, ma'am, have you ever been to India?

1:02:18 She goes, no, I said, well, I have.

1:02:21 And I've seen destitution and poverty and suffering like I've never had before.

1:02:27 And I said Hinduism teaches that those people are paying for their sins from a previous

1:02:32 life and they shouldn't be helped.

1:02:34 Oh, man, the wills started to unravel, but at that point, I didn't want to end the dialogue.

1:02:42 I want to keep the dialogue going.

1:02:44 And I said, you know, hey, why don't we keep this conversation going?

1:02:48 Because evangelism is a process.

1:02:50 You got to till the soil plant seeds in the soil, water the seeds in the soil, then the

1:02:59 harvest comes, but here's the problem, though, Kyle, is she goes, I was raised in the church.

1:03:05 My dad was an abusive pastor, brother, the devil does more damage inside of the church

1:03:13 than anybody outside of the church.

1:03:16 So we have to learn nuance.

1:03:19 And then what I would say to the men as well, if someone gives us a question, we don't know

1:03:23 go, you know what?

1:03:24 I don't know that answer.

1:03:26 But let's study it together.

1:03:28 Keep the relationship going, keep it going.

1:03:32 People often have to belong before they believe.

1:03:35 And you know this, Kyle, like you talk about this all time, men need community.

1:03:41 That's right.

1:03:42 So let's get, let's keep them close.

1:03:45 Keep them close.

1:03:46 This is the truth.

1:03:48 Yeah, I agree with that.

1:03:50 Joby said something which was kind of revelatory.

1:03:53 He said it.

1:03:54 I think he said in private conversation with me and then he mentioned it on deep in or from

1:03:56 stage or something like that, but it's like no one remembers that one devotional they

1:04:00 did on that one day, right?

1:04:03 No one's like, oh, I was reading, you know, Spurgeon's morning and evening and I was on,

1:04:07 you know, January 24th.

1:04:09 And that's the one that changed everything.

1:04:11 Most people don't have that experience.

1:04:13 But if you look back on 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years of faithful devotion to

1:04:18 God's word and prayer time and seeking his face and loving Christ, well, then it just

1:04:24 kind of it builds up over time, same thing with exercise like that's the easiest one

1:04:27 for people to understand.

1:04:29 Like you can couch to 5k.

1:04:31 You can't couch to Murph.

1:04:32 You can't do a hundred weighted pullups if you've been sitting on the couch for 40 years

1:04:36 or something like that.

1:04:37 Like that's a big deal.

1:04:38 But, and again, we'll wrap up our discussion.

1:04:40 So speaking of what you're just saying.

1:04:45 So I opened a book with the story of Matt, the atheist, the problem evil.

1:04:49 So a few years go by, we're getting ready to start service at church.

1:04:55 Someone grabs me and says, hey, there's a guy in the lobby crying uncontrollably.

1:05:00 And he's asking for you.

1:05:01 So I go out there.

1:05:03 It's Matt.

1:05:04 Immediately I say, hey, Matt, what's up?

1:05:05 And he can't even talk.

1:05:06 He just buries his face in my chest and he goes, my mom has died.

1:05:14 So we started meeting again.

1:05:16 He's open to reading the gospel of John.

1:05:19 He eventually comes to Jesus.

1:05:22 And I asked him, I said, so what was it that brought you to faith?

1:05:26 And he said, one, I saw the misery of my wealthy clients that I would train.

1:05:33 Two, I realized that I needed meaning and purpose, but more importantly love.

1:05:39 And then lastly, the evil in the world is not God's fault, but God has overcome that

1:05:46 evil and he wants to use me as a part of it.

1:05:49 Let's go.

1:05:50 Amen.

1:05:51 Yeah, man.

1:05:52 And dude, there's so many good anecdotes and stories from the book again, guys, the

1:05:55 book is called lit up with love.

1:05:57 It is out now.

1:05:58 Check it out in the show notes.

1:05:59 You got time for a couple of more subjects that I want to want to tease out with you.

1:06:02 Good.

1:06:03 This is fun.

1:06:04 Let's do it, man.

1:06:05 So you were just talking about men.

1:06:06 Okay.

1:06:07 So I feel like God put me like when I feel like I'm most over the X is with my mission

1:06:11 is equipping men to push back darkness.

1:06:13 Okay.

1:06:14 We do that by creating content.

1:06:15 That helps men forge spiritual mental and physical resilience.

1:06:19 All those words have meaning, okay, and we're not going to really elucidate that here.

1:06:23 But yes, men's community is a big thing.

1:06:26 I tell guys, they need to develop a foxhole.

1:06:28 It's like, look, it's not just good enough to get together once a month for the six AM

1:06:32 prayer breakfast, where your pastor does an extra sermon or something like that.

1:06:36 Like that, that's not really going to move the needle.

1:06:38 Also, it doesn't move the needle whenever you basically just turn your men's ministry

1:06:42 into a women's ministry that you've repackaged for men.

1:06:45 So you say, Hey, we're going to meet up at six AM on Wednesday mornings and we're all

1:06:48 just going to get in a circle and talk to one another.

1:06:51 It's like men don't default to connecting in a circle eyeball to eyeball.

1:06:54 We default to connecting shoulder to shoulder accomplishing a goal, a task, a something

1:07:00 first, then we have earned the right to connect eyeball to eyeball.

1:07:03 But here's the biggest thing.

1:07:05 So for years, I was the men's ministry guy, right?

1:07:07 So guys would, you know, pastors or just random dudes in churches would ask me, Hey,

1:07:12 how do we build a vibrant men's ministry?

1:07:14 What do we do to make a men's ministry happen?

1:07:16 I'm done with men's ministry language.

1:07:18 I am focused on man friendly churches because if your church is man friendly, your men will

1:07:24 attend.

1:07:25 They will pay attention.

1:07:26 They will accept discipleship and correction.

1:07:29 They will, uh, catechize their children.

1:07:31 They will lead their wives as Ephesians five would tell us that we would lead and it's

1:07:35 modeled from the pulpit.

1:07:36 Now, is it easier to model manhood when you are, uh, colloquially manly, right?

1:07:42 So tattoos, beards, uh, motorcycles used to play in the NFL.

1:07:46 Uh, you know, still, you know, all that kind of stuff.

1:07:48 Yeah.

1:07:49 All that stuff helps.

1:07:51 But most churches, the men preaching are not manly in any way, shape or form.

1:07:56 The men leading the worship are not manly in any way, shape or form.

1:07:59 They are singing words where if you took the name Jesus out and inserted the name Larry,

1:08:03 you would be, it'd be like you're singing a song to your boyfriend.

1:08:06 And so guys are just sitting there with their hands in their pockets and they don't really

1:08:09 know cause the songs being sung in a key that they can't hit and they're wondering what's

1:08:14 wrong with me.

1:08:15 But the church and I've said this a billion times may as well have a neon blinking sign

1:08:19 over the entrance that says men, we don't have you in mind men.

1:08:23 This is not for you and the church is love to lament.

1:08:25 I'm not, now I'm preaching the church's love to lament the fact that men are not volunteering

1:08:30 that men are not involved that men are not coming to church with their wives and they're

1:08:34 not, you know, doing all the different things.

1:08:36 They love to castigate men on Father's Day, but they have neglected the men for the 364

1:08:42 days prior to that and they're doing nothing to ensure that these men are doing the things

1:08:46 that they should do to be a biblically centered man.

1:08:50 And then the women on Mother's Day, they float out a church on their way to Applebee's without

1:08:53 even feeling like their centers.

1:08:55 And so we wonder about the inequity.

1:08:57 We wonder why men are stepping up, but we're not doing anything to help the men step up.

1:09:02 So Derwin, your turn.

1:09:03 How do we focus on man-friendly churches and not just men's ministry, whatever that is?

1:09:09 Yeah.

1:09:10 Well, let me, let me, let me rub all that in right now.

1:09:14 Let me, let me as a, as a, as a, I didn't know we were making a man-friendly church.

1:09:22 I just, I just knew that Jesus is great, that the Father's great, that the Holy Spirit is

1:09:28 great.

1:09:29 So I think first thing right is men need to be invited into something great.

1:09:40 The way we preach the gospel, hey, Jesus, after your sins, you get to go to, you get

1:09:47 to go to heaven and instead of hell.

1:09:50 And so we even picture heaven is like this formless, lifeless, whatever this.

1:09:56 The biblical picture is Jesus is a new king who defeats in death and evil through his

1:10:05 life and his resurrection, his ascension, the sin and all the Holy Spirit.

1:10:09 And now he is summoning all people by grace through faith to join him in the kingdom of

1:10:19 God coming to earth.

1:10:22 Then need a kingdom of God theology, not I get the float, float off.

1:10:27 So there's going to be a new heaven and a new earth glorified resurrected bodies.

1:10:31 But until that time, I'm joining Jesus and pushing back to darkness.

1:10:36 I am little would love becoming a good newsman, pushing back the darkness at home, at work,

1:10:43 at play.

1:10:45 And how do I push back the darkness?

1:10:47 I love God with all my heart, my soul and strength and I love my neighbor as I love myself.

1:10:53 And you're, you're right.

1:10:54 One of the, one of the, one of the things that we've done a really good job is, is we

1:10:59 teach all of Ephesians five.

1:11:02 So Ephesians five, 25 husbands, love your wife's Christ, let love church.

1:11:06 Yeah.

1:11:07 Yeah.

1:11:08 But we forget about verse 33 wives see to it, you respect your husbands.

1:11:16 Be neglect that.

1:11:17 So on Father's day, first thing I say, Hey, this isn't a day we're going to beat up men.

1:11:22 You already get beat up enough.

1:11:23 This is a day we're going to encourage you.

1:11:25 And this is a day.

1:11:26 Hey, ladies, wives, you want to build up your man, talk to him like the man you want him

1:11:33 to be.

1:11:35 Talk to him the way you want your son's future wife to talk to him.

1:11:40 Pray for him that way.

1:11:42 Pray him into the man you want to be.

1:11:44 Now I'm not talking about being a jerk because there's some dudes that are just jacked up.

1:11:48 I'm talking about a normal, healthy relationship that men need a, like, okay, I'll just say

1:11:55 this for you.

1:11:56 My wife of 33 years, I know she got my back.

1:11:59 My wife through the javelin and college, Hey, you want to, you want to fight mess with me.

1:12:04 Like my wife got my back.

1:12:06 We planted this church together.

1:12:08 She is fierce.

1:12:09 She is powerful and she also knows that we disagree, but she's going to speak to me like

1:12:18 the man that I am.

1:12:19 And I'm going to speak to her even though we disagree, like the woman that she is.

1:12:24 And so a man friendly church is a church that is inviting men into the glory of God being

1:12:31 equipped by the gospel of God and also speaking to them like they are who God says they are.

1:12:39 It's not a call out.

1:12:40 It's a call up.

1:12:43 And so like you come to our church, there's there's giants everywhere.

1:12:48 I mean, and there's women everywhere.

1:12:49 There's young people everywhere.

1:12:50 It's multi ethnic is different social economic classes.

1:12:53 It looks like Revelation seven nine, but I do agree with you, Kyle, that there has been

1:13:01 this over feminization to where men don't feel challenged, men don't feel invited into

1:13:10 this greater story.

1:13:14 I think you're exactly right.

1:13:15 They're not being invited up in the kind of the heartbreaking thing.

1:13:18 Well, maybe it's a good thing.

1:13:19 We'll see how it turns out.

1:13:21 I'm getting these emails from individual men that are that are frustrated with what's

1:13:25 going on in their church and they're thinking they should leave and all that.

1:13:27 I'm like, man, maybe it's your job to create a groundswell at your church.

1:13:30 Because one of the things about success is some people are just undeniable, right?

1:13:35 Like there are people that aren't like attractive.

1:13:36 I was thinking about this the other day, Chris Stapleton, not a really attractive man, not

1:13:40 like, you know, a guy that you would be like, Oh, that guy could also be a model, but he's

1:13:44 undeniable because of his talent.

1:13:46 Well, in some churches, maybe your thing is you get a group of like minded guys together

1:13:50 and you have an impact on the elders and on the pastors.

1:13:53 Maybe some of you and your crew become elders and maybe the church starts to turn the corner

1:13:58 just a little bit.

1:13:59 Now, this last subject, I'm not going to be doing it justice because we could have spent

1:14:02 the entire time talking about this, but we are running short on time.

1:14:05 We got other things to do, but I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about because you mentioned

1:14:08 your church as multi-ethnic and different things like that.

1:14:11 And for those of you that aren't watching this online, you might be surprised to know

1:14:14 Derwin's a black guy, which is probably the least interesting thing about you, I would

1:14:18 say is what color and what level of melanin you have in your skin.

1:14:22 But we live in this time period where your ethnicity or your race is like the defining

1:14:29 characteristic of who you are, aside from the gender that you get to choose on a daily

1:14:32 basis.

1:14:33 And so for me, I grew up in Oklahoma, so people just automatically think rednecks surrounded

1:14:38 by white people.

1:14:39 But I remember coming across my sixth grade class picture.

1:14:42 There were 20 kids, probably seven or eight white kids, five or six black kids, a couple

1:14:46 of Asian kids, a couple of Mexican kids, a couple of Indian kids.

1:14:49 And guess what?

1:14:50 As a sixth grader, I didn't look at that as like, Hey, that's my Mexican friend.

1:14:53 I was like, that's Ivan or Hey, that's my black friend.

1:14:56 That's Leon.

1:14:57 We were just kids, we were just kids existing.

1:15:00 And then it was probably around college where it was like, wait a minute, why is everybody

1:15:04 so overwhelmed with the level of melanin that they have in their skin?

1:15:09 And like, I look at the color of my skin.

1:15:11 I look at the color of the skin of the people around me as like, okay, that's God's gift.

1:15:15 He made you that way.

1:15:16 He made some people tall.

1:15:17 He made some people have curly hair.

1:15:19 He gave some people the ability to grow beards and some people are just perennially going

1:15:23 to be looking like children walking around, even though they're adults.

1:15:26 It just kind of is what it is.

1:15:27 It's a uniqueness of what you're given, but how should or how do you approach the subject

1:15:33 of race?

1:15:34 Because I think we kind of run to extremes where you have ministries that that seems

1:15:37 to be everything that they focus on and ministries I just want to pretend like, Hey, racism doesn't

1:15:42 matter anymore because the NFL put into racism at the end of the end zone and somehow racism

1:15:46 is gone.

1:15:47 You know what I mean?

1:15:48 Yeah.

1:15:49 Yeah.

1:15:50 So I thank you for bringing up this topic because we need to have better conversations

1:15:58 around it.

1:15:59 So, so let's start here.

1:16:01 The triune God has created a planet with every nation, tribe, and tongue.

1:16:07 So we start number one with this, Kyle, we're not color blind.

1:16:11 We're color blessed.

1:16:13 What does color blessed means?

1:16:15 It means I appreciate my brothers and sisters from Southeast Asia.

1:16:19 It means I appreciate my best friend, Joe, who was Italian from Queens, right?

1:16:26 So we don't to not see color is to diminish the glory of God.

1:16:32 We are to appreciate our background.

1:16:34 We are to appreciate our culture.

1:16:36 For example, I'm like 22% European with the most being Scottish, you know, like, yeah.

1:16:45 So I need to appreciate that. I need to appreciate my ancestry.

1:16:50 Why is this important?

1:16:51 Because it's important to God when it becomes a problem is when our ethnicity is held against

1:17:00 us.

1:17:01 Right.

1:17:02 So let's do this first.

1:17:03 All right.

1:17:04 And so this is going to challenge some folks.

1:17:06 Slavery was not invented in the United States of America.

1:17:09 The ancient Sumerians, 5,000 years ago, enslaved the Scottish enslaved the Irish, like African

1:17:17 tribes enslaved African tribes, sold Africans to the port.

1:17:23 Slavery and racism is a dark demonic sin that America does not have ownership of.

1:17:30 Here's some other stuff too.

1:17:31 When you look at history, when you look at history, America's position of slavery was

1:17:38 a short period of time considering historical has America come far it has.

1:17:46 The civil rights was important, you know, 60, 70 years ago, there would be restaurants

1:17:52 I could eat in.

1:17:53 So yes, things have gotten better.

1:17:55 So we should appreciate the ethnic differences that we do have now.

1:18:04 We have to be mindful that ultimately people are attracted to people who think like them,

1:18:12 act like them and look like them.

1:18:14 So we have to be aware of the biases that we all have in the gospel is supposed to break

1:18:21 those things down.

1:18:23 So one of the problems I have is when you go to the extreme progressive position on the

1:18:30 left, it's like, no, white people, I don't need you to save me.

1:18:34 Like I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, like, no, no, you, you're turning this into something

1:18:38 that it is not.

1:18:39 But then on the far right, you'll get racism doesn't exist anymore.

1:18:45 If you talk about it, that's what makes it come back.

1:18:47 And I'm like, okay, let me just write.

1:18:49 So if you don't talk about the sin of racism, it goes away.

1:18:52 So let's don't talk about pornography.

1:18:53 Let's don't talk about abortion.

1:18:54 Let's don't talk about anything.

1:18:56 We don't need a savior.

1:18:57 We just need to not talk about it.

1:18:58 So I think it's important that we talk about it in the context of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1:19:05 And this is what it comes down to.

1:19:10 Love your neighbors.

1:19:11 You love yourself because God loved you first.

1:19:13 And the story of the Good Samaritan is a powerful story of what it looks like to love.

1:19:19 The Samaritan loves a Jew who was considered his enemy.

1:19:24 And what we need to do is love people and treat all people and see all people the way

1:19:32 God sees them.

1:19:33 And that even means our enemies because today's enemy could be tomorrow's friend.

1:19:38 That's what the gospel does.

1:19:40 Can I, do we, do we have time for me to share a story?

1:19:43 Let's go share it.

1:19:44 All right.

1:19:45 So, so this is, so this is an early days of our church.

1:19:46 And we're meeting in this little bitty warehouse is terrible, right?

1:19:51 But we're grateful.

1:19:52 So at the end of service I get off stage shaking hands and this white dude in his mid to thirties

1:19:58 is sprinting down the aisle and as he gets closer I can see his crying snot is like going

1:20:04 back back and forth.

1:20:05 Now I'm from San Antonio so I'm like, okay, I'm greeting people with my right hand so

1:20:10 I can dip with the hips and boom, come across with the left, right?

1:20:14 But before I know it, he's on me.

1:20:17 The snot's going on.

1:20:18 So it's probably on me as well.

1:20:19 And he hugs me tight and he looks at me and he goes, I can't believe I'm in church.

1:20:23 And he goes, I don't even like black people.

1:20:28 But the more you talked, I wanted to know Jesus will you help me find him.

1:20:33 So eventually led him to faith.

1:20:36 His girlfriend had been inviting him for a year, but he's like, I'm not going to go

1:20:40 see no inward preach and dah, dah, dah.

1:20:42 Anyway, Jesus met this racist, blasting him, dudes get saved.

1:20:48 They're serving at our church and they come to us and say, hey, we want to get married.

1:20:54 And I was like, yeah, we're going to have that conversation.

1:20:57 And she says, my father just owned me at 16.

1:21:00 Will you walk me down the aisle?

1:21:04 Will you officiate our wedding?

1:21:06 I'm like, of course.

1:21:07 So I'm walking her down the aisle.

1:21:10 She is white southern country get get aware and like Wranglers, dirty boots, a white

1:21:16 halter top with a Bob war tattoo.

1:21:18 I walk her down the aisle, all right.

1:21:22 And then, uh, you know, he's up there and he's just crying.

1:21:27 He's just what we've been.

1:21:28 I hand her off to him.

1:21:29 I run around, says, who gives us one away?

1:21:32 I run back.

1:21:33 I do.

1:21:34 And I perform the wedding, right?

1:21:36 And as I'm looking at the sky, I go, wow, the gospel turned this racist into a gracis.

1:21:46 And it's a living portrait Kyle of the church, the wedding feast.

1:21:52 We are the bride of Christ and she's from all over the world and grace transforms us.

1:22:01 So yeah, man, we need to be color blessed and love each other.

1:22:04 Man, I absolutely love that story because again, whether your flavor of sin is racism

1:22:10 or you've killed a baby via abortion, whether you are the paid assassin or you are the woman

1:22:16 that allowed it to happen or the man that stood by and maybe paid for it, whether you're

1:22:20 a murderer or a child abuser.

1:22:22 I mean, I remember when I went to Lewisburg prison up in Pennsylvania and like I'm walking

1:22:26 around the block and I'm shaking hands with dudes that have used those hands to end multiple

1:22:30 lives.

1:22:31 And now they're covered by the blood of the lamb and it's there will be a day that comes

1:22:36 or it'll be like, no cheer has ever been shed and none of those, none of that blood was ever

1:22:40 shed either.

1:22:42 And the thing is, is we can't as pastors, but even as just normal people, we can't ignore

1:22:47 someone's flavor of depravity because we think it might offend them.

1:22:51 It's like, I'm sorry, like I don't get that luxury of ignoring the things about you that

1:22:56 make me feel icky, okay, because of the Lord that I serve and the demand that has been given

1:23:01 to me.

1:23:02 But Derwin, we've weaved in and out of a lot of subject matters today out of feeling today's

1:23:06 conversation.

1:23:07 It was going to go a lot like this.

1:23:08 I really thoroughly enjoyed it.

1:23:09 We went into overtime just a little bit, but I think our audience enjoyed that.

1:23:12 But that's all for me.

1:23:13 Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?

1:23:15 I appreciate it.

1:23:16 Man.

1:23:17 Now this has been great.

1:23:18 Keep up the great work.

1:23:19 And it's an honor for me to share and I hope that little love would be a book and a resource

1:23:24 that men would treasure so that they would get settled fire for Christ and reach their

1:23:28 friends who need Jesus.

1:23:30 All right.

1:23:31 Thanks again, Derwin.

1:23:32 Prezabra.

1:23:33 All right, guys, thank you so much for listening to this interview.

1:23:36 Before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.

1:23:39 Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual,

1:23:42 mental and physical resilience.

1:23:43 So I've got a link to the Amazon page where you can go and buy lit up with love and I've

1:23:47 got a link to Derwin's website.

1:23:49 Thank you for listening to this podcast.

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1:23:54 star review.

1:23:55 If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email

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1:24:08 Just go to www.undonton.life and as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing

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1:24:15 The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self titled debut album

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1:24:21 The links are in the description.

1:24:22 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.

1:24:24 Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.

1:24:31 You're seeking the lion of Judah.

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