[music] This is Undaunted [music] Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys. We got a special guest on the podcast today. His name is David Matthysse. He is a senior teacher and executive editor at desiringgod.org. He also pastors at City Church in St. Paul, Minnesota. Is an adjunct professor at Bethlehem College and Seminary. And he's the author of this book, which is the centerpoint of our conversation today, A Little Theology of Exercise, Enjoying Christ in Body and Soul. And so, I was pitched this book a while ago, but it seemed more appropriate for January. You got a lot of kind of new year, new me people, people deciding to take care of their bodies. And so, we want to do everything we can to keep that momentum going. And so this is a book, as you can tell, guys, it's a small book. I read this while sitting in a deer blind, and I had plenty of time in the set left over. But most people don't connect their exercise or their diet, their nutrition, their rest regimens as being connected in any way, shape, or form to their Christianity, in any way, shape, or form connected to God. And so hopefully this conversation today disabuses you of that notion because we talked specifically about like, okay, what does scripture have to say? But what is the theological underpinnings of why we should exercise? Why do most people not do that? I mean, I came out straight from the beginning and I'm like, "Hey, what is it with Christian pastors?" Because if you look at most Christian pastors, a lot of them are obese. Some of them morbidly obese. And then if you ever challenge them on that, they kind of like twist themselves into pretzels. Uh, no pun intended, but they twist themselves up trying to get to to explain to you like, "Well, they're doing the work of the Lord and blah blah blah." But we talk specifically about Christian hedenism, which is a term that he's kind of coined in this discussion. We talk about how Christians can enjoy the benefits and rewards of exercise better than non-Christians because of what we understand and just kind of how our cultural moment of you know easy buttons and you know convenience has led to this century lifestyle and how we shouldn't take our cues from that culture but also how exertion produces award and also we should get fit for good works. That's one of my favorite parts of this book and favorite parts of this discussion which was towards the end is most of us don't look at the training we're doing right now potentially serving someone else in the name of Jesus later. So really enjoyed my conversation with him. So without further ado, let's get into it. David Matthysse, welcome to Undaunted Life and Man's podcast. >> Kyle, great to be here. Let's talk to men. >> Well, I I think you're going to be talking to a lot of men right now. That is 95% of our audience. But shout out to the 5enters, to the ladies in the audience, the lioness, the gangsters. But we're we're going to be talking about one of my favorite subject matters, but one of my least favorite things to do simultaneously, and that's exercise. We're going to be talking about the theological underpinnings of that. But before we get there, you got like kind of a lot of Christian jobs, right? So, you're like an adjunct professor, you're an author of Christian books, you're a pastor, you you teach and do some stuff with desiring God.com. So, did you always want to be a professional Christian or did that just find you? >> There we go. I actually was raised the son of a dentist, but my first love was baseball before I did anything else. And I had to find something to do when when I eventually ended up in that done with that young man's game after high school. >> And uh [clears throat] as a junior in college, I was discipling some men on the campus at Ferman University being discipled by some older men. And uh as I took my last predental [clears throat] class, I thought, I just want to take a Greek class. I was loving studying the Bible. And I loved that Greek class and I did not enjoy the genetics anywhere as much as the Greek side by side. And that was a part of God sending me to seminary. And of uh in particular I I went there to learn to study the Bible. I wanted to teach the Bible, preach the Bible, and that's led one thing to another. I started working for John Piper back in 2006 and have been with Desiring God Ministries now for over 20 years. I pastor uh as in a non-paid non-vocational role among a team of pastors. My full-time jobs at Desiring God. I do a little bit of adjunct professor work, teach the preaching class at Bethle College and Seminary, but the main focus is is at desiring God.org. >> Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about Desiring God before we get into the book as kind of like an offshoot because uh it's hard to really encapsulate how important that particular ministry and John Piper's ministry specifically has been for a lot of people within Christianom. And it's not just John Piper's books, but it's the podcasts, it's the the blogs, it's the the answers that are given by Desiring God. But I'm curious since you've been there for so long, I'm I like looking at trends like, okay, what have we seen from this time to that time? But in the last 20 years, we've seen a lot of revolutions. We've seen the legalization of uh quote unquote gay marriage in this country. We've seen the rise of wokeness. We've seen the rise of Islam. We've seen the rise of the nuns, right? We've seen uh an increasing number, especially with this next generation. We've never seen a more conservative Christian generation of boys. Simultaneously with a more liberal, left-leaning uh era of girls, less religious, don't want to have families, don't want to have babies, like don't want to get married, that kind of thing. There's been a lot of crap that's gone down. And oh, and I forgot COVID, right? And about $2 billion worth of damage. People torched the entire country because uh a criminal died while in police custody. It's just been it's been a lot. It's been a lot of things all at once, but Desiring God has been there through all of it and has seen the kind of shifts in the sand within Christendom and culture. So, how would you encapsulate the last 20 years and the impact that Desiring God has had? Yeah, you know, in those undulations, the ups, the downs, and George Floyd died just two miles from my house in Minneapolis. Uh, so that was right here in our backyard. We've seen those ups and downs, and just this year in September, uh, John Piper released his essentially his 40th anniversary edition of the book Desiring God. It first came out in 1986. We're coming up on 2026 here. And in the new introduction to the book, he chronicles some of those things going back to the 80s. Tianaan Square and we're talking about technologies like DVD players and cassette tapes. And what he says there I think captures it so well. Why a ministry like Desiring God would endure in such different times from from the mid 80s until today is some of the most significant things maybe I think I'd say it stronger. the most significant things have not changed that God made us that he's the one that satisfies the human soul and so even as so many of these cultural and obvious flash points do change there are the shifts there are the undulations at the core there's the timelessness if you want to capture it the prophet Isaiah captures it so well Isaiah chapter 55 listen everyone who thirsts come to the waters and you who have no money come by and eat. Come buy wine and milk without money and without price. It's a street vendor's invitation that your soul was made for God. Come to God and eat. And through those cultural flash points which are which are significant. They matter. They really matter. People go to hell from one to the other and to heaven from one to the other. And yet in and through them there is a timeless call from Genesis to Isaiah to Jesus to the 21st century to delight in God and for him to be glorified in your life through enjoying him. Well, and you know the gospel certainly persists whether or not more people are walking around with purple hair and nose rings like that. There's certain things that I think especially conservatives and Christians can be like attached to like oh my gosh the world's going to hell in hand baskets. Like you know every single generation has said that right? every single generation as people have complained about the young people that's just been ubiquitous throughout human history. But one last thing, then I promise we'll get to the book. So, uh, you know, this is being released in early 2026. Last year, it's overwhelming the important men within Christianom that were taken off the chessboard. And I brought this up a lot on my show, so if you're tired of hearing it, maybe find a new show. But you had a bunch of people taken off the chessboard. my friend uh Phil Robertson uh died last year. You had the great John MacArthur, the great James Dobson, the great Charlie Kirk, and then the one that maybe hurt the most other than Phil for me was Vodie Bacham, right? >> And so you have these men that were just they had their own gravitational pull and they kind of had disperate areas of extreme influence now off the chessboard. And then you had like the Asbury revival, quote unquote revival. Then you had like, oh, this explosion of Bible sales and especially after Charlie Kirk died or was assassinated, you had, you know, perhaps the highest Sunday church attendance in the history of the planet occurred the Sunday thereafter after September the 10th of 2025. And then you see just people are trying to figure out what does it mean? Like is it just so happened that these five very, very important men all died in the same year? Is God up to something? Is he saying, "Hey, y'all were too dependent on the ministries of these men, which will persist through media clips and YouTube and books and all the things, but hey, we're trying to raise up that next generation of guys that will replace these these men because it's not one to one replacement. You don't get to replace Vodie Bacham. That's not a real thing. You don't get to replace Charlie Kirk. That's not a real thing." But how many of us replace? I'm just wondering what your read of that is because it just feels like something's palpable in the air. God's always up to something and he's up to 10,000 things. Uh in such a time when leaders that I'm conscious of are being removed. They're dying. They're passing on. I I love the book of Hebrews. And one of the most encouraging passages there is at the end of Hebrews when he talks about remember that your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God, consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ in verse eight. So you got those you got those leaders who are great. Remember them? Don't forget them. Remember them. Imitate their faith. Not necessarily everything they did. They had a certain ministry that was faithful in their generation. You don't imitate all of their actions necessarily. Imitate their faith. Consider their way of life. And then he says verse 8, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And so for that early first century church, they have some great leaders that probably started that church that these Hebrews that the letters written to uh have been deeply encouraged by. They have been discouraged by the loss of those leaders. And he's saying, "Yeah, remember those leaders and know this. Jesus is not dead. He's on the throne. He's glorified. He raised those men up. He'll raise up others as he sees fit. And he's the same yesterday, today, and forever." And so you go into the future with great hope in Jesus. >> Well, because he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that is the thing we can tether our faith to and tether our actions to. So whether you're sharing the gospel in front of an arena filled with people or you're sharing the gospel with a guy at a gas pump, it is it is the same gospel that needs to be shared and it needs to be done in a fullthroated fashion. But here we are. We've kind of circled the drain. We are now here. [laughter] You're on the show mainly to talk about your new book out which is called a little theology of exercise enjoying Christ in body and soul. And so one of the early scriptures that you post in here is 1 Corinthians 6:1 19 and 20. You are not your own for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. And as we talked about a little bit off air, there are some guys that just kind of like to ignore certain scriptures as it pertains to their body because taking care of your body can be very difficult from an exercise and a nutrition and a supplementation perspective and a rest perspective. It can be really, really hard. But for you, David, why this book? Why now? Why you? >> Well, this one [laughter] I never would have set out uh 10, 15 years ago uh to write on exercise. Man, as I went through seminary, as I studied Greek and Hebrew and theology, I'd dreamed of writing on Christologology and teaching the book of Hebrews. And and what happens in our lives is as we move forward, we seek to meet needs. Uh I I I don't want to go and just wax eloquent and public about just what I want to talk about. As a Christian, I want to see what needs there are and meet those needs. And that's that's happened to me over and over again. And this one surprised me. So it it's a 10ear story. I'll summarize quickly. Um, after I got married in 2007, ironically, on the same day the iPhone came out, June 29th, 2007, uh, my life became far more sedentary than it had been when I was in college ministry. I wasn't thinking about it while I was in college ministry, but often I was exercising with students. We'd lift weights together. It was a more active life than when I became an editor full-time and started traveling around the world with John Piper. So, my first day on the job at Desiring God, they gave me a laptop. They gave me a Blackberry phone back then and I thought it was cool to have this new technology. I didn't realize these were emblems of my new sedentary job and I did not realize for years that I needed to supplement that sedentary work with a more active nonwork life. Took me years to realize it and I was walking around the lake with my wife in summer of 2015 carrying probably 40 more pounds than I needed to carry. often tired at night, tempted to fall asleep reading with my kids when I'm reading of the the bedtime story. And and I I made some excuses of I don't have time to exercise. And I had an athletic past in baseball, but I had just gotten out of the practice because of my job, because of being a husband, because of being a dad, just because of the various conditioning aspects of 21st century life. Like I'm not alone in this. I think so many guys have been subtly subconsciously conditioned by modern life, all its technology, all its conveniences, all its very rich food. And if we're not intentional, before long, if you're coasting along with that cultural trend, you're going to find yourself out of shape. You're going to find yourself sedentary. And so, I had that realization. And my wife challenged me. She challenged me against those excuses. She goes, "You do have time in the morning. you seem to have these nice extended leisurely devotions reading your Bible. What if you spent three days a week and got a little bit of exercise? And so I took her up on the challenge. And that was life-changing for me to try exercising first thing in the morning. Now, at this point, my motivation was just a doctor is seeing some high cholesterol numbers in my early 30s. I'm looking at the weight on the scale. I'm feeling sluggish in life. And so my motivation at this point is not especially Christian. It's just kind of a human motivation of something's wrong in my life and I need to get back to some normal human levels of activity that would supplement my very sedentary job. And then the path of the last 10 years has been all right, I'm a pastor. I'm a Christian. I love theology. What is the theology of exercise? And so in some sense uh I have taken that up basically every other day just about. I usually jog three times a week. So, I've run about 15 miles a week on average for the last 10 years. I've done some weights to supplement that. Play some basketball with some buddies down the street here on Tuesday mornings. My boys are baseball players. I'll do baseball with them. And I spent about an hour shoveling snow this morning in Minnesota. Uh so, there are other things to do to supplement that. But a lifestyle that is resistant to physical activity versus one that thinks, so here for your masculine audience, uh, I'm a man. Part of what God did in designing me to be a man is to use this body for the good of others, to use these arms to shovel that driveway, to use these arms to hold babies, to help my family, to be active, to be ready to do good, not passive. And modern life does condition us. It conditions men and and there's maybe the greatest tragedy is how modern life conditions men to be passive, to be inactive, to be lazy, to be calculating subconsciously all the time. How can I get the closest parking spot? How can I take the least steps? How can I exert the least amount of energy? And that is ridiculous from a Christian standpoint, not to mention a human standpoint. And so these last 10 years have been about all right, what's the theological motivation? How do I go about this as a Christian? Because for me, it's not just good enough to do this for optimal, normal humanity. I want to do it to God's glory. I want to do it for spiritual joy. And I want to do it for the good of others, for various acts of love in the ways God's called me to. Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you train for very specific things. So maybe you've got a mud race coming up, a mountain hunt, a 5K, or maybe you just want to keep up with your kids, or you just don't want to let the old man in. But for a lot of you guys, whether you're working out at the globo gym or even in your garage gym, you get there and you just don't know exactly what to do. And so you just kind of settle for the same old workout routine, maybe some bench press, bicep curls, a walk on the treadmill, and you know you're not really getting the most out of your workout plan. And I want you guys to stop wasting time at the gym. No more settling. It's time for you guys to get a guide to help you reach your fitness goals. And that's why I want to remind you about my good friends at Mountain Tough. Mountain Tough is a fitness and mental toughness app developed by military special operators and mountain hunters that's becoming a global movement for building mentally tough athletes on and off the mountain. Mountain Tough is a native app ready to be downloaded on all platforms. So that includes iPhone, Android, Apple TV, Roku, and there's more. Once you sign up and download the app or access the website, you immediately have access to hundreds of exercise programs and literally thousands of workout videos. Thousands. So that includes structured hybrid strength and endurance programs, daily workouts, the full exercise library, mental toughness training, the Mountain Tough community, and accountability. And you can use it all on the go, online or offline, no matter where you decide to train. So if you're just getting started, that's great. They have programs for beginners. If you have minimal or no gear where you train, that's not a factor. They have minimal gear and bodyweight programs. And guys, if you're wanting to get into or maintain elite level fitness, they've got you covered with programs for top tier athletes, too. And for a limited time, Mountain Tough is extending undaunted lifers like you an incredible offer. Go to mountaintuff.com, that's mtnuff.com, and enter the code kyle when you sign up for a monthly plan to receive your first month free after your 14-day trial. So, that's six weeks free to make sure this is for you. I'm sure it will be. That is six weeks free on the best-in-class physical and mental training app in the world. So stop wasting time. It's time to get real fitness results. Let my friends at Mountain Tough guide the way again. Go to mtntuff. That's mountain.com promo code Kyle. Well, I think as well I was just talking to somebody at Jiu-Jitsu last night like people didn't used to have to exercise because they lived completely non-sentary lives. They were working on the farm. They were constantly moving. you very rarely saw obese people and then obviously we have, you know, the factory food epidemic that we're currently under and this incredibly sedentary life and you literally don't have to move to do anything. You don't even have to get in your car to go to the fast food restaurant. You can be boop a couple of buttons on your phone and they will bring that filth to your doorstep. So, you literally have to just make it from the couch to your door and then back to your couch. And that's just never really been something that we've experienced in human history. But this is an overtly Christian concern as well. As you said, there's a quote from the book, as Christians, we cannot content ourselves with taking our bearings from our sedentary society. Our modern excesses are not just of human concern, but Christian concern. But what this actually dovetales in is to something that you didn't really cover um fully in the book. Part of the problem is with people making the body to glorifying God connection is a huge chunk and I I guess pun intended of our pastors are incredibly fat, >> right? They're not just a little fat and a little squishy. They're very fat and very squishy. So you've got some people and you even have pastors that are very skinny, but they got bad plumbing, right? So genetically speaking, they don't have a propensity for obesity, but they're not in shape, right? They they don't exercise. And again, it's that that scripture from Paul. It's like, you know, uh physical exercises of some value. They seem to put a heavy emphasis on the sum and they like to ignore uh anything about slothfulness or laziness. And then if you ever challenge one of these pastors on the fact that they are in some cases morbidly obese, they turn it into a well, I'm busy doing the work of the Lord and I'm spreading the gospel and I'm I'm preparing my sermons and I'm doing this and I'm doing that. And it's like, yeah, you're also deleting years off the end of your life, and you're not going to be able to fully serve your flock because your body doesn't work well. We'll talk more about that later, but specifically with pastors, this seems especially pernicious. Why do you think that is? [sighs] >> Good question. I mean the uh from one standpoint to come at it from this angle the elder qualifications the pastor elder qualification in the New Testament are not something distinct from what's expected of all Christians uh pastors are just meant to have those and across the board to have those to be modeled by the local congregation to be modeled for the local congregation. So self-control is one of the attributes of a local church pastor. And to the degree that we in one sense you'd call this a form of worldliness. To the degree that we as 21st century men are being so conditioned and shaped by the pattern of this world that we are not exercising Christian self-control in the use of our bodies, in normal physical activity, and in then taking care of what we're eating. Then I I think there's some serious questions that should be raised about this qualification. Now there are some guys who have never heard it. They've been so subtly conditioned by this age we need to calmly helpfully as teachers to bring into their life to notice that difference between the past between the present. When guys uh emphasize that there's little value or there's some value in physical training in 1 Timothy 4:8. One thing I want to say before we get to 1 Timothy 4:8. Now 1 Timothy 4:8 in the first century, that's when Paul's writing it. And if if we want to restore our whole society back to normal first century levels of activity and then talk about some value and greater value, we can do that. But nowadays, we don't start that conversation at bodily training. We're talking about normal human movement to begin with. I I do think that when Paul talks about bodily training, he's not just talking about normal activity. You know, on your feet, making tents, using your hands, pushing and pulling, I think he's talking about some extra training that Olympic runners, that boxers might do. It's an extra degree of training. I first and foremost want to talk to guys about, hey, what does it mean in the 21st century to live a normal history of the world active human life? that to to be aware of our devices that can help us do many good things. Technology should help us do what we do, but we need to monitor when technology is doing it for us rather than doing it to help us and know how our bodies are being undermined, diminished, and we're not living fully human levels of bodily life. So, that's the first thing. Before we get to 1 Timothy 4:8, I want to talk about normal human levels of activity, whether it's for pastors or whether it's for Christians. Well, and I would also say as well, um, if you're not modeling it well, then it's going to be harder to shepherd your flock. Just from an example standpoint, because men follow strength, and that's just not physical strength. Obviously, men follow spiritual strength and boldness. They follow mental strength and boldness. That's just something that that men are attracted to. And if men are to be the heads of their households, they need to be discipled to that end because that will make it easier for the woman to be the helpmate made fit for him and for the children to be raised up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord via mom and dad who is tethered to the local church who's tethered to God. Right. And another concept that you bring up in the book and you mentioned it several times is that you are a Christian hedenist or you talk about Christian hedenism. Now, people are going to automatically hear that because they don't know what hedonism means. And they're going to but they're going to be like, "Hey, that sounds bad. That sounds icky. I don't think that's a good thing. That's like saying, you know, Christian Muslim like that. That just you can't have those two things together." What is a Christian hedenist and why is that helpful in this conversation? >> Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Kyle. I I love that question. It is admittedly a provocative term. I mean, it really hinges on what you mean by hedonism. Uh there is a detailed definition of hedenism that totally contradicts Christianity and the two can't go together. But there can be a more general definition of hedenism, a kind of lowercase hedenism of a life devoted to pleasure. The question then is pleasure in what? And that's what we're trying to say by calling it Christian hedenism. Uh what we have in mind by calling it Christian hedenism is the Bible's relentless appealing to reward over and over again. CS Lewis called this in Jesus's teaching his unblushing promises of reward. Jesus doesn't ever say, "Hey, this is the truth. This is what's right. Just do it." Jesus did not fit with Stoics in the first century. Jesus surprisingly appeals again and again to reward. He to the finding of joy. Now, that's not joy on the world's terms. That's joy on God's terms. But over and over again, God offers his people joy like that Isaiah 55 invitation or like Hebrews 12:2 telling us why Jesus went to the cross. I mean this is the single greatest achievement in the history of the world that he went to the cross which is not merely passive. I know sometimes in theology we talk about his active work, his passive work making that distinction. Jesus going to the cross is not well categorized as passive. This is one of the most active things. This is one of the this is the greatest achievement in the history of the world. And Hebrews 12:2 tells us for the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross. I had the realization years ago that whatever got Jesus to the cross, I mean, that's the manliest act in the history of the world. Whatever got Jesus to the cross, I want to live my life like that. And Jesus, Hebrews tells us Jesus got there for the joy that was set before him. So by Christian hedenism what we mean is God is God has designed our human souls. He is relentlessly making appeals to our spiritual sanctified holy joy in him. And so following Jesus, following him does not mean putting to death spiritual desires. It does not mean putting to death your heart. It means living out of a Holy Spirit empire empowered new heart, born again heart, living for desire and seeking the reward. And and one way that it has been very practical and exercise is I I'm not especially motivated by, hey, I might live a few years longer at the tail end of my life. I could get hit by a car. My plane could go down. I could get cancer. There's all sorts of reasons why I may not get to the end of my 70s and try to extend them into my 80s or my 80s into my 90s. What really really motivates me to put my shoes on, go out for a run when it's cold, to get up and lift some weights is thinking, what will this matter today? Will I experience more joy today? Will there be a kind of satisfaction that hey, I got up, I did something. I'm pursuing God with my life. I want to be a husband who honors him and my wife and a father and a worker. And so I'm so that that pursuit of joy in Jesus today has been what has moved the needle for me in going from a season of very sedentary life back into a more active lifestyle and trying to do so as a Christian. >> Well, I think the focus could also be because a lot of people think exercise and taking care of themselves for lifespan. It's it's more so health span. I think people are more so focusing on that because let's say you've made it to your 90s and you can barely move, right? You're barely functioning mentally like that. That's not good. So, assuming you don't get hit by a bus, taken out by a pack of wild dogs, or get cancer or something like that, you want your health span to work as long as possible. And it doesn't really matter what authority you appeal to or what kind of study you appeal to. If somebody lifts weights and does good cardiovascular exercise, has a high V2 max, that person is their all cause mortality goes down, their ability to be able to perform, to run around with their their grandkids. Like, it just breaks my heart when I see grandparents at the park when I'm there with my 5-year-old, my three-year-old boys, and they're they they just can't get around. Like, they can't interact with their children. All they can do is watch them with their eyeballs and lament the fact that their bodies don't work. And I think there's obviously a delineating point that you make in the book about how Christians can enjoy like literally the joy of physical exertion and taking care of themselves physically more so than a non-Christian could. So you elucidated with this point here. Countless unbelievers come to experience and enjoy the many benefits of exercise, but do not adore Jesus or have the Holy Spirit. My concern is how a Christian might exercise differently than an unbeliever. How do we experience God's natural gift of physical exercise in such a way that we profit spiritually? The one thing that I would add is anyone, especially if you do any type of powerlifting, when you hit a PR of some kind, right? You you can look back on typically the years and years of lifting to get to that particular number, which might just be a fraction higher than the number you had gotten previously. And for me specifically, anytime I have like a physical uh accomplishment like that, I'm like, I am so thankful that my body works this well at this age, that God gave me this discipline. God gave me this functioning body, that I've been allowed to stay healthy. So whenever I exercise, I am exercising to his glory. But again, a lot of people don't really don't really ever get there. >> Yeah. Well, so many dynamics here. I mean, I I really like the health span emphasis that that really resonates. And and for me when I'm thinking health span, I'm thinking health today and I'm thinking holistic health that includes spiritual health. So an amazing thing about the way that God has knit our bodies and souls together. And if if we die before Jesus comes back, they'll be torn us under and the soul will go to be with him and the body will lie in the ground. But that that's not the natural state. That's not the proper state of humanity. God has knit these souls and bodies together in such a way that what happens in the soul affects the body. And Jesus talks in John 4 about I have food to eat that you know not of as he's had a spiritual conversation with that woman at the well. And we've had various mountaintop experiences on a retreat where we have extra energy in our physical body because of something that's transpiring in the mind in the heart and the inner person in the soul. And we all know that if you miss a night's sleep, it's not the same reading your Bible the next day. It's not the same in corporate worship the next day. As a preacher, I don't want to miss a night's sleep and try to preach the next day. I mean, my soul is affected by life in this body. And we know it through sleep. Sleep makes it so clear. But also, we will know that through what we eat, what we put into our bodies. And then physical activity is very significant. So, as as we as we hold up health span, I want to think about physical the physical health span as well as the spiritual. I don't want to only think about the spiritual, but for me as a Christian, the the spiritual health span is the diamond at the top. When I read my Bible, I want to be fully engaged. I want my mind sharp. I want my heart responsive. I want to be engaged in corporate worship. I want to have energy to see others needs and do acts of love. And what I have found out again and again over these 10 years is that as I if I keep my body in some modest shape, it affects my spiritual health. There are significant spiritual health health benefits. Now we get we get into the real practical of now how do I go about lifting weights to the glory of God. And 1 Timothy 4:es 4 and 5 which comes right before that famous bodily training verse in verse 8. 1 Timothy 4 and 5 is super helpful. He talks about making life in these bodies holy through the word of God and prayer. The word of God is what does God say about it? What does he say about your body? What does he say about this activity? So, as I'm growing as a Christian, sitting under sermons, reading my Bible, listening to podcasts, reading books, I'm growing, I hope, in my understanding of what God says about himself, about the world, about me, my soul, my body, my life, my family, my church. And in growing in that understanding about my body, hopefully then I enter into those acts of exercise with an opportunity to consecrate that exercise. 1 Timothy 4:4 and5 says prayer through the word of God and prayer. So this may seem really small but I think this is very significant for Christians that just as we pray over meals and it seems like a small thing. Ah I just made this habit. We prayed over the meal. It seems like a small thing but the effect over time of pausing and remembering this food's a gift from God. I'm asking God I'm I'm expressing thanks and I'm asking God to take it take its nourishment use it in my life. That rhythm of life over a meal is very significant over time. And I believe the same about our exercise. So many of our of our problems in modern life of being too inactive or body idolatry and exercising too much wouldn't be necessarily quickly fixed but would be greatly helped by a pattern of ex by a pattern of prayer about our exercise and a pattern of prayer as we enter in. So for me as a runner, one of the ways this happens is I pray at the beginning of my run, God help me, give me strength. I pray that the payoff from this would make me a better worker, a better father, a better Christian today because I got my heart rate up. I got fresh blood and neurotransmitters to my brain. And I'm I'm a better Christian today because of this exercise. And I'll pray for, you know, keep me from turning my ankle, keep me from injury. But it's mainly about would you consecrate this act to my life, my Christian life in a very similar way that I pray over a meal. And then at certain points in the exercise, I I've talked to some Christians who talk about praying all the way through the run. I don't [laughter] I guess I'm not as spiritual, but at at certain points, I'll come upon a moment of all right, time to push it. Time to lean into this hill rather than back off. God, would you give me strength to finish well? And then I try to remember at the end of my jog to thank him. Thank you that I made it through. And I pray you'd use this now for your glory. The same can be true in powerlifting. But for a Christian to say, "All right, here we go. This is a new PR right here. This is two and a half pounds more or five pounds more, but but here we go on the bench press or on the squat or whatever it is." All right, God, would you give me grace? Give me energy now. And uh and go for it. And if you if you make it, thank him. I I think that process of consecrating our bodily lives is very significant. It is not just a good practice through Christian tradition. It is from the Apostle Paul explicitly in 1 Timothy chapter 4:es 4 to5. >> Well, even if you don't make it, thank him. That's one of the things that I, you know, every time you see a guy, you know, they they win the, >> you know, big college football game and they put the mic in front of the kid's face, he's 19 years old, and he says, "I just want to thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and all that." Well, typically when they put the microphone in the face of the 19-year-old kid whose team did not win, or at the press conference afterwards, typically not praising Jesus and God in the same way. I I would like to see more of that to where it's like no, we we praise him all the more. Uh you know, even though so you don't get the PR, you do roll your ankle on the run or something like that, you still thank him and praise him because you're still alive. You're still alive to do his work. And you know, the concept in the book that you kind of talk about is exertion produces reward. Okay. So let's talk about reward from like a basic standpoint. So if you talk about it biologically uh you know if you study kinesiology or sociology or psychology when somebody exerts themsel physically when they get a healthy amount of sleep and when they eat real food everything improves like it doesn't matter what metric you look at or from what angle everything about the person improves right so even if they they're exercising and their job requires physicality it helps that job if their job requires their brain working or they create content or or something like that It helps in all those different areas. You're more patient when you've exerted. There's there's happy endorphins that get released in your system after a strenuous uh workout of some kind when your heart rate spike to a certain amount for a certain length of time. Like all of it's there. But specifically in a Christian context, not spiritual because that can get off into some crazy land talk, but in a Christian context, exertion produces reward. >> And it applies. You exert in Bible study. Today I'm digging in this morning I was digging into Romans 4 and five for the forging table that we do here and it's like there were some sentences that I read and I'm like all right I know English. I know I know English. Um that Paul come on man like do me a solid here like make it a little bit more. Can you put it on the bottom shelf? Do you mind? But I can't imagine what it would be like if I didn't have any of those endorphins running if I hadn't you know exercised my mind which is all part of this as well. And it all leads to one of my favorite words in the English lexicon, which is resilience. Exertion produces reward and it leads to resilience. So talk a little bit more about how that goes. And guys, if it seems like we're beating a dead horse here, we are because this is so so unbelievably important. >> You know, the uh one of the things that the modern world with its decadence, its wealth, its luxuries, its technologies, I mean it is amazing. I I wouldn't choose to live elsewhere uh in a different century. Not that you can. You're given your times. That's where you must live. And I'm thankful for all the options we have. I'm thankful that I can go see a doctor when my arm's hurting. I don't know if it's broken or not. So I I appreciate that. But there are to know the traps of the modern world and how much it is conditioning us for ease without being conscious of it. We are being so conditioned for ease. It it it it plays into our natural both humanity and to our sin. And one of the amazing things that exercise does for Christians, if only this, if it only did this, it would be worth it, that it it retrains our souls. It retrains our instincts to think when I come up against something difficult. The the response to have the reflex isn't fold. It's like, oh, somebody offered some negative comment or there I met up against some obstacle or some hindrance. Oh, just give up. Go the other way. Go back to my couch. Uh the instinct to have as a Christian is lean in. This this is a chance m maybe there's resistance because there's something good here. The resistance is from the enemy or the resistance is from sin. And so the resistance is keeping me from something good. And one thing that exercise does is it begins to retrain the soul to say, "Hey, you don't fold just because something gets a little bit harder." If the increment of difficulty rises, that doesn't mean that doesn't mean give up. Lean in. Make sure it's a worthwhile pursuit and see on the other side. Learn to look beyond that immediate obstacle, that immediate hindrance. It that presents itself in your face and see the reward on the other side to move through it. So, so one way I do this as a runner and you apply it to whatever area of bodily training you do, I come on a hill and a hill's harder than flat ground. And uh and you see the hill, it's like, ah, maybe this is time to walk or at least a time to slow down cuz my legs are going to burn. This is going to be hard for the next 300 yards, maybe the next quarter mile, whatever this hill is. There's one perspective that is met by the obstacle and draws back. It's not resilient. Another perspective is just endure. Another would slightly different would be to lean in a little bit. I'm gonna lean forward. Not just to endure this hill. I'm looking forward to the other side. There's a downs slope on the other side and I'm looking forward to getting there. I'm going to move myself there. I'm going to be propelled as it was through the hindrance. And this is a picture of Christian faith. I mean this is the kind of faith that Jesus is inviting us to and encouraging us to all over that we would see beyond the immediate difficulty and by seeing beyond looking to the reward what streams to us in the present is the joy we need to be sustained like that is the joy of endurance is looking beyond the reward beyond the obstacle to the reward if you just look at the obstacle you're going to give up so much sooner than if you look beyond it and say I'm motivated to get beyond this thing for my good. And that teaches us not only success in bodily training, that teaches us how to live the Christian life. >> It teaches us that endurance, that resilience. Uh something that I've done uh while training people because there are different modalities that people can be good at. Maybe they're they're really strong or maybe they got kind of like short burst explosiveness or long-term explosiveness, something like that. But sprints is kind of like that great equalizer because they suck no matter who you are. Even if you're Usain Bolt, they still suck. You don't want to do them. But we'll we'll typically do a very hard workout. We'll do sprints at the end, and it's a lot of sprints with very little rest. But then I will end by telling the person that I'm training, "Hey, I want you to sprint, and I'm not going to tell you how far. Do you agree to sprint without knowing the distance?" Like, are you going to give it all you got? Because I'm going to be running right behind you, and if I sense that you're dogging it, that you took your foot off the gas and you weren't giving full bore, we're just going to do it again. So, it's going to suck, but let's just make sure it just sucks once. Deal. And the guys like you at first they think I'm kidding, right? They smile and they're like, "Oh, sprint without knowing the distance. That's insane." And then they're like, "Oh my gosh, he's serious." And there's something about that to where you have to make a different agreement inside of you of what you're capable of. And then you have to go past that, right? Because I know how far we're going, >> but there's something extra in a person to where it's like, "Wait, I don't know how far this is." And it's it's that extra mental strain, >> but it's part of getting fit for good works. And you talk about that later on in the book. >> Get [clears throat] fit for good works. I want to actually read this paragraph here. >> A fifth and final Christian motivation for exercise is the good of others. Or we could say, for love's sake, I exercise to make myself a better servant of others to be fit for good works. When my life is joyfully active and less sedentary. When I feel strong. When it seems clear to me that a happier life comes from actively or activity not passivity. I'm more ready to spring into action to help others. I'm ready to move, ready to respond, ready to hear, ready to help. I believe that exercise makes me a better servant of others, a better husband, father, pastor, and friend. Well, David, one of the ways that I've described it is let's say you're in Africa. You're doing water well work with a ministry over there so that people over there in the name of Jesus can get clean water and oopsies the Hiluxes went missing overnight or they broke down or something like that and the work sites a couple miles down the road. So, do we just not get to help people get clean water today or are we going to load some stuff on our backs and start humping it? Well, guess what? If you're morbidly obese or if you've allowed your body to just waste away because you haven't used it, you are not capable of blessing people in the name of Jesus in that moment unless something supernatural is surged into your body. And so I I preach people all the time, you don't know what's required of you until it's required. And at the time of requirement, there's no time to train, right? It's not like, all right, like Nehemiah 4, it wasn't like, all right, we're going to build the wall, but we're going to build it with one hand, and we're going to defend ourselves with the other if we need to. It wasn't like, but let's take a time out and do P90X for the next 90 days. Make sure everybody can get in shape and be ready. No, it's like, hey, we start at dawn, like it's time to get after it. I know that's a long setup, but I think that might be the most important point of everything from this book. >> Yeah, I do. I I I really do believe that that to be ready for good work. That's that's a phrase that Paul uses twice. I love that phrase. I think it's 2 Timothy 2 Timothy 2:21 and Titus 3:1 maybe. And uh Paul doesn't often repeat phrases. When he repeats multi-word exact phrases, we should take notice because this is probably something he's saying regularly. If you came across Paul, you hung out with him for a while, you'd probably hear that phrase ready for good works. And I think there's an internal component. There's a soul component, a will component saying my bent on life is not passive. I'm not looking to cut corners. My I'm leaning forward as it were. I'm on the edge of my chair. I'm ready to see some need and do good. And there is a essential bodily component to that. Just about every good work that we do involves the body in some way. Maybe there's some maybe you can send somebody a kind email and just move your fingers. There can be some small good works that don't don't involve the body, but so many do. I mean, just basic stuff like me getting my butt out this morning and putting an hour into shoveling the snow here in Minnesota, we got eight plus inches last night. That's a lot of work. [laughter] That's a lot of work. And and and uh 15 years ago, I was and I 15 years ago, I'm 30 years old and I was not at the point to do that work in the way I am now at 45 because of how the last 10 years have been. And that that's significant. That's a way to help my family. Get my wife out of the driveway this morning. I know this seems small, but this c this adds up over time. as a husband, as a dad, as a pastor, even if I'm called to an appointment that doesn't require me doing heavy lifting, there is heavy lifting emotionally just to show up, to make the appointment, to get there, to ask hard questions, to say frank, direct statements that would push through fog and would get to pastoral help. And so the applications here that the the readiness to do good work just comes all up comes all over which is is why the motivation to do this what we've been talking about Kyle it's so wonderfully like multivalent I mean for Christians it is not just singular it is double triple four times five times that's why I closed the book with the five motivations you can draw in others for sure but to to do to be investing ourselves like this in modest modest bodily activity at least uh makes us the kind of people who glorify God, who enjoy him, who have minds that are ready to work, who have wills that are ready to help, and then have bodies that are ready to join those wills and do good in the world for Jesus glory. >> I think that's absolutely the case. And uh as you were saying that, I was reminded of a story that I've said on the podcast before. It's it's terrible tragedy, but there was a father of four kids. They go on a hike and about three or four miles off the trail head, right? They're they're into this hike. I think the dad had a a brain aneurysm or something like that. He passes out. Woom. Hits his head on the ground. He's out cold, but he's alive, right? But this is a dire situation. So, they call for help. >> And unfortunately, the EMS people that responded were very overweight. So, they're trying to get up this trail head, but they're having to take breaks constantly. Well, by by some virtue of, you know, texting and getting every everyone around, some high school kids heard about what was going on. They thought they might be able to help. So, what these kids did is they showed up to the trail head. They found these EMS people and they were taking the stuff from them, taking their bags, taking the gurnie and running ahead of them to drop it off where this guy is, running back, getting more stuff from these EMS people, and then running it back. These kids, I think someone did the math. They ran close to a marathon on a trail trying to help this guy out, but unfortunately by the time the EMS people got there, it was too late. And it was one of those situations where perhaps if the EMS people had been more ready to go physically, this man would be alive today and those four kids would still have their father. And so, yes, sovereignty of God, all the things. I'm not I'm not saying that that wasn't part of the plan or any of that, but I'm just using that as an example to elucidate the overall point, which is if you need to be in shape for good works. Again, you don't know what the good work is yet, but you need to put your yes down on the table. Kind of like I tell you, are you going to sprint until I tell you to stop? You have to say yes before you know what's about to happen, right? And so, I I think you do a great job of helping Christians and helping people get an idea of what that looks like in this book. So, uh thank you very much for this book. It's been great to talk to you about it, but I'm always curious about what's next because you always seem to have some irons in the fire. Obviously, things are still going well with Desiring God. Is there another little theology book in in your future? Something that's kind of been kicking around in the back of your brain you want to tell us about? So many. I was telling my friend the other day who's who's in a who's at a publisher, it's like, I got so many book ideas right now. Um, a a medium one and a longer one. The longer one that I mean to keep working on is on the doctrine of God's majesty. Uh it's an under emphasized attribute of God. And I I think we are among a generation that is starved for God's majesty. Starve for awe and wonder. Starve starved for fearsome wonder and God's bigness. He made our souls for that. And I love exploring that attribute. The the most immediate next project has to do with all right now. What do you do with this energy? You know, if God's giving you mental, emotional energy from this bodily training, where you going, where are you going to do with it? One of the places to turn with it is to Jesus. Jesus in your worship, Jesus in your meditation, Jesus in the Gospels. And so, I'm working on a project called 10 looks, savoring the whole story of Jesus. And what I want to emphasize is the well-known parts of Jesus story, the cross, the resurrection, but also the parts that we tend to skip over pretty quick, like the ascension, his enthronement at God's right hand, called the session, some of the aspects of his life, his full humanity. Sometimes as Christians, we start off with Jesus is Lord, Jesus is God, and we're very slow to do full justice to his full humanity, which that relates to this this product, this project about the body as well. So, I'm I'm excited about that. My favorite thing to write about is a person, is Jesus, and I'm excited to kind of lay out his story in these 10 looks, 10 episodes from eternity past to cross and resurrection to the future at the end, what's called the beatotific vision to see Jesus face to face and look in his eyes. >> All right, very good. Well, that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> No, that's it. Thank you, Kyle. >> You're welcome, man. Thank you so much for coming on. There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with David Matthysse. But before I let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. If you go to the show notes today, you can check out where I have a link where you can buy your copy of this book. Go out and get it. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undantton.life. That's info@undantton.life. [clears throat] Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] [music]