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[MUSIC]
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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Let's get into it.
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Hi guys, today, we've got a special guest on the podcast.
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His name is Danny Ray, so he is a professional magician and
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an author.
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He is the first magician we've had on this show.
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So there we go.
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He has appeared on The Fool Us Show with Penn and Teller.
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He did that just last year.
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And he's also the author of a book called No, I Can't Make Your Wife Disappear, a magician's
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guide to magic or to a magical marriage.
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Didn't want to mess up the thing, a magician's guide to a magical marriage.
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So here's the thing about this interview.
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So I obviously asked him a lot about, you know, magicians and, you know, things that
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he likes and how he got into magic and all those types of things.
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But we get into some serious areas really from the beginning, we get into the fact that,
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you know, he wasn't raised by his biological father, but he was raised by another man,
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his stepfather and kind of how that affected him and affected his introversion and how
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he was going to get into magic.
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But as with anybody, when this interview was pitched to me, I was like, Hey, how do you,
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how do you do the magician thing and do the Christian thing?
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Like that just didn't seem like it would work in any way, shape or form, because like
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a center point of magic is deception.
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And we know from all different examples in the Bible that, you know, deception is not
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a positive thing. It's not something that we should be working through.
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But that is something that he explained. I really liked his answer on that guys. I really
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enjoyed this interview with Danny Ray. I'm not going to keep him from you any longer.
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So without further ado, let's get into it.
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Danny Ray, welcome to Daunted Life of Man's podcast.
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Hey, Kyle, thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.
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Okay. Now I just told you off air that you're the first magician that we've ever had on
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this show, but I don't want to be offensive here.
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Are you a magician or are you an illusionist? Because like there's, there's separate camps
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here. And I don't want people thinking that I'm calling you the wrong thing.
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You don't want to call me like a necromancer or no, no, no, no, no. See, I would never
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do such a thing. Never.
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I'm fine with either. So in like the magic world, if I said illusionist, they think like
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grand illusion stage, but in the Christian world, we tend to use illusionist more than
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magician. But technically, I would be a close up magician. It is primarily what I do.
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Yeah, I will probably default to calling you a magician for the remainder of this. But
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if I slip an illusionist, don't judge me too harshly. But yeah, in a broad way to start
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this is obviously that's a very unique interest. A lot of people like watching magic or like
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watching illusions, but it's not ever something that they thought they would themselves would
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practice doing. I know I got like a magic kit, but I was a little kid, but I was so terrible
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at finding the little seam in the card, you know, with my thumb or whatever. So for you,
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I guess when did you start being interested in magic? Yeah, I think I would say like
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a similar thing where a lot of, you know, young boys, sometimes girls will get into
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slide a hand when they're a kid or they're interested in magic. And so I was probably
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eight years old and got like a flip stick, you know, where, you know, it could change
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colors using a certain move and then by 10 o'clock or 10 o'clock, I got my first magic
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book called close up magic by Harry Lorraine. And it was primarily a card book and I started
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working on, you know, card tricks and sleight of hand. And yeah, and I just never gave it
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up. I just kept working on and developing it. And I think with my growing up, you know,
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I had two, two dads, one that was present, one that was absence. And I think that, you
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know, the absence of your biological father, there's there's a depth of pain there that
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I don't think I was aware of it 10 years old. And so when I found this, it became my escape.
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And so I just, I would work on a day and night to kind of escape the pain struggle. Yeah.
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Okay, I was going to get into this later on in the show, but since you brought it up,
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let's go heavy, let's go heavy right from the beginning. But obviously, growing up without
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your biological father, but you were essentially raised by a man, but it was your stepfather.
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You've already said how that kind of affected how you internalize yourself because magic
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is something that you perform for people, but you practice in private, like the reps
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over and over and over getting good at it. And then you just basically try to fine tune
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it in front of people. What else in your life affected you in that way? Because it wasn't
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like your biological father, you know, just wasn't there and there was no other man that
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filled the gap. There was another male there, but kind of give me a little bit more insight
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there.
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Yeah. So I think when you, you know, the way God's designed a family is when that person
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that, you know, supposed to be part of your, your life leaves, I think there's an absence
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in, in people that's just hard. And this is why I think we have a lot of daddy issues
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in our cultures is men sometimes don't stick around and don't, you know, do what God's
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called them to do in that area. And then it's hard to define timelines on this, but there
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was, you know, sexual abuse and just things that weren't supposed to happen. And you feel
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like there, there should have been somebody there to protect you. And, and so those things
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I got internalized to. So, you know, where's the protector? Where's the father? Even though
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my, my stepdad, or, you know, he's my dad. He was awesome. There was just a lot of things
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that he wasn't aware of at that time. And later on, when he became aware, you know, we
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were able to talk, talk about those things. But yeah, and I think that those early years
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were really defined by the, the absence of a father and escaping in the only way I knew
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how, which was through a sleight of hand. So with that in mind, I'm curious. And if this
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is prying a little bit too much too early in the show, you can just tell me to [inaudible] off.
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But at the same time, I feel like you're, when you're doing magic and we're doing, when you're
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doing these things like car tricks are super impressive. People love them. And it blows
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their mind and all that. Do you feel like in a way you're trying to get good at those
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things so that you could gain acceptance from other men? Because obviously you tried this
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in front of men. And it was almost like, Hey, Danny, you did a great job. I'm proud of you.
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Is that a part of it there? Or was it just? No, it was a great hobby. Am I reading into
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it too much, I guess?
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No, there was definitely part of that. Like, but I was so introverted at that time and
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very few people saw outside of family members and aunts and uncles, you know, what I did.
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I think a few years old, I did a show called Razzle Dazzle. And, you know, and I definitely
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wanted to impress, make proud, you know, have people, you know, go, wow, you're, you're good
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at that. And I was okay at 12, you know, but I think that again, a search in me for, you
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know, why am I? Why am I empty? You know, and I didn't, you know, grow up in the church.
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It wasn't want to be until I was 17 years old that I gave my life to Christ. And so early
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on, like that, that emptiness trying to, you know, fill it with magic eventually with,
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you know, with girls, you know, you know, dating and all that stuff. But it, you know, wasn't
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filling that whole.
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So for you was, was magic a conduit through which you became more extroverted? Or was that
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just kind of something that happened over time as you grew older? Did something change when
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you did accept Christ at the age of 17 kind of helped me out with that?
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Yeah, I think probably to a certain degree, I'm still pretty introverted, even though
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I'm in a lot of social settings all the time. And I really enjoy those. And it's, so I want
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to say like that in terms of introvert, like I just don't want to be around anybody, you
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know, but I think what, what happened was at 15 years old, I got a job at a restaurant
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in my, my dad, my stepdad, right? He waited to go every week for three years through high
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school with me to this restaurant. And I would go to tables. And it's, if you ever have to
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go, you know, go up to a table and greet somebody and say, Hey, I do magic. Do you want to see
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something and they reject you? Like 15 years old, like it's like, you know, like, yeah,
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it stings it, especially when you're not super extrovert. I don't care. I cared, you know,
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I'd go back to my dad and be like, oh, I don't know if I could do this. He's all, you know,
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you have to keep going with this table over here. They look like, you know, they would
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have fun. So I would go on the next table would love it. You know, and so I learned
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the rhythms of that. And I learned how to read people's body language a little bit better
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than I did at 15 when I started out. You know, people would be really intimate in a conversation
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almost nose to nose. And I'm trying to like, Hey, you want to see a magic trick? So I
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had to learn those social cues and stuff, but that helped give me, I think, out of like
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just doing bedroom magic for the mirror, you know, and going, okay, these are real people
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that have real reactions. There's a real conversation going on. And so I had to learn
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that. And it was, I love learning that, that side of it and doing it for real people became
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a real joy of my life. That's awesome. So you're, you're kind of working your way to
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getting out of your shell and you're dealing with rejection. You've got all that stuff kind
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of going around. But this is kind of the big thing. Like whenever, whenever we figured
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out we were going to have you on the show and all that, I was like, okay, Christian magician,
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like those things don't seem like they jive very much because, you know, I, a major center
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point of magic or illusion is kind of misguiding people and taking them on a journey and not
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always being completely forthright with them, which is akin to lying. And so for me, it's
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like, obviously it's not like I don't enjoy magic as a Christian, but I could see maybe
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even at the age of 17, you accept Christ. Did that create an issue for you that you were
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working on something that was deception and how, you know, we see so many examples in
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the Bible of deception being called out as being sinful. So that's, that's the million
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dollar question for the day. Magic and Christianity. How do they mix?
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Yeah. So I get that, you know, and here's, here's what I'm convinced of. If somebody's
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like, magic's always wrong. There's never, like they're not going to even enter into
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a conversation. I've tried to have those conversations and some people are just so convinced because
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it's the same word that's used in the Bible. And at 17, I read the Bible, you know, for
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the first time, I don't know if I read it all the way through it, but I was reading different
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parts and, you know, read magicians are going to hell. I was like, ah, that's not good. Um,
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I don't know much, but I know that's not good. Right? And so I, I went to my youth pastor
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at the time and a couple other leaders and they were like, no, no, what's going on in
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the New Testament, Old Testament, we're like calling up the dead and, um, you know, uh,
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calling on evil spirits, all that stuff. That has nothing to do with like, Hey, here's
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a card trick. You know, in, so when we talk about deception or lying is first of all in
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all of my presentations, I try to be as truthful as I possibly can be. Even though everybody
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understands in a magic show, like you're, you're entering into a world where you want
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to be fooled. Right. And so for that to happen, you understand that the magicians going to
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do things to, if, if you will deceive you, but it's under that premise of, of entertainment.
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I'm not trying to take advantage of people or, you know, take somebody's money or do
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like, you know, like cruel things. It, I mean, there was a TV show a while ago that, you
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know, where somebody would get people's information and say that they're talking to the dead.
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And that stuff is so cringy to me because it's so personal. And I, I've read a thousand
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things on that, on how to do that. And it works. The problem is, is you really are deceiving
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somebody at that point, because you're not talking to their, their person that's passed
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on, even if you're saying you are, and it might even bring healing, but the ends don't
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justify the means of that. And how many people are broken when they find out that what, what
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really happened wasn't true. And so, yeah, so my, my thing is, it's entertainment. I
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think everybody going to a magic show these days, isn't like, is he calling on demons
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to, you know, bring the car to the top of the deck? Like, please, you know, is it possible
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that, you know, this person worked on that technique to fool you, you know, like it's,
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that's a much higher, higher probability. But that's where it says we need to not leave
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our brains at the door either is, you know, that look at other options besides there's
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a team in behind every door, you know, that type of thing. So right. Absolutely. That's
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what I figured you would say something along those lines, because if you look at things
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categorically without putting context to it, it becomes a little bit of an issue. But again,
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I know people that they will not let their kids dress up for Halloween, because it's
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all hallow's Eve, it's satanic, it's all those different things. And then there are other
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people that are on the Christian side, they're like, it's not that big a deal. My kid wants
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to dress up as Buzz Lightyear and go get candy. Like it's not, it's not the same thing. But
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for, you know, for different people, there's, there's lines that they're unwilling to cross
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and that's good. And that's, that's up to them. But for you, obviously, everyone knows
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now you are working as a professional magician, but that was not always your profession. So
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you actually worked in ministry before you decided to, you know, follow your dream as
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it were. So kind of take us through that trajectory, because it's like, you know, this magic thing
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could just kind of be a thing that you do on the side, you do a few parties per year,
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and then you've got your real job or whatever. But at some point you drew a line in the sand
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and you're like, no, I'm burning the ships, I'm going for it. So take us through that
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whole transition. Yeah. So 17 years old gave my life to Christ at 18 years old. I do a show
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and there's, there's a guy that sees the show. He's a world renowned magician. And he says,
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look, Danny, I love your stuff. I'm going on tour. I'm starting out in Las Vegas going
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over to New York, then over to Europe. And I want you to go with me. I want, I want to
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train you. I want to show you the ropes into me. This is like, this is my dream come true.
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I'm so excited. The difference is now I'm a follower of Christ. So I pray about it and
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feel like God's saying, do not do this. And I'm like, you know, like, but this is my dream.
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You know, and at that time I want to be able to articulate like, like that God's dreams
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are always bigger for us and his dream for us is bigger than anything we could ever imagine.
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But at 18, I didn't know that. I just know God's telling me no. And so I went to this
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guy said, you know, can't or I call him up and said, you know, can't do it. And so at
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that during that same year when I was 18, I guess I would have been 19 and 19 got involved
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in youth ministry. And, you know, I'm volunteering in youth ministry. And then when I graduated
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from seminary, I became the youth pastor. And that season was just incredible. Like,
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I loved working with, with students. I think God was preparing me to do more of a national
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international ministry. And at 28 years old, we began to pray through what would it look
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like to really combine these two things together. And I'm reading through Romans 1129. And it
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says God's gifts and is calling or you're revocable. So, so they're designed to be tied
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together and it's trickable from one another. And so I knew at that point, I needed to figure
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out how to combine these two. They were in two different worlds at that time. And so
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I met the gym and I'm on a staring, I'll say, I'll say a machine that sounds so much better.
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I'm like, yeah, I'm on a machine. But there's this magazine that I wouldn't typically read.
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It's there though. So I start flipping through, I think it was like a time, maybe a news week.
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And there's this article of this magician that I met when I was 18 years old. And he
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was up for all of these fraudulent charges for taking college students around the world.
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He would rack up their visas or their credit cards. And then once they maxed it out, he
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would leave them stranded around the world. Well, it, yeah, it was a crazy thing as I'm
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praying through this going, God was protecting me at 18. And now at 28 showing me now is the
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time. And so, so we begin to pray, seek wise counsel. And in 2003, we launched to do this
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as a, as a full time ministry. Yeah, that's amazing. And so you've done this full time.
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You've done a lot of touring. You've done tons of shows. I mean, probably definitely
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hundreds, but if not thousands and thousands of shows. But then it seems that they'd all
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kind of culminated with your appearance on full us with pen and teller. And so I actually
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met, met Penn, you know, at an event in New York a year's back. So great guy. But obviously,
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you know, very, very secular, very, very atheistic type person. So that I'm sure was interesting.
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But for those in the audience that are unfamiliar with the show, Fool us. What is the point of
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that show? And I guess, how did you manage to get an invitation to go on there with your
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trick? Yeah, the idea behind the show is, can you as a magician fool two of the greatest
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minds and magic, regardless of people's opinion of pen and teller from like, you know, their
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thoughts on atheists. I'm Iran, you know, faith. The reality is they're both very intelligent
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men that know magic really well. And they've studied it for decades. They've had live shows
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and they guess for decades. You know, and so the idea behind the show is, can you fool
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them in the people that go on to the show? There's thousands of people that audition handful
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of people that get on there, but only about 10% of the people that get on there fool them.
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And the thing with it is they're trying to help magicians careers. And whether you fool
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them or not, it really helps, you know, your career as a magician. But they're not going
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to just say, Oh yeah, we, you know, if we have four people on the show, we need one person
17:59
to fool us every week and three people not to fool us. They don't have a recipe. And
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it's just if you fool them, you do if you don't, you don't, you know, and so. So yeah,
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the what led to going on to the show is I've had people ask for years. If I go on, you
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know, they're after a show, people will come up. You should go on AG, you know, America's
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got talent. You should go on pen and tell her and we just said, no, no, and we pray about
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it and really don't feel like led to do that. And then during the pandemic, we were praying
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about it and some other people had challenged me to do it at that time. And so we submitted
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a video and it through that's changed of like 23 emails we ended up. So all that to say
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long process. We ended up getting an invitation to go to Vegas and perform.
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quality. So that that's awesome. So you get there and I'm just going to leave it to you
19:19
right now. Take us through the entire experience guys in the show notes. I'll put a video of
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the performance and all that so you can check it out. It's on your website. I'll make sure
19:26
you guys have that. But you know, what was it like? How did it turn out? Take us through
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the whole thing? Yeah, so it's April 9th and I get an invitation like, Hey, we'll see you
19:37
in Vegas. And I was excited. And then that came in at 1236, I believe PM at 1237. I went,
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how do I fool them? And then I'm an early guy. So for a one AM the next morning, I'm like,
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how do I fool them? And so I had 70 days to develop like, so essentially, if you haven't
20:01
seen the routine, I play Russian roulette with my eyeball. And so essentially, if this piece
20:09
doesn't work, there's a giant hook that's going to gouge out my eyeball. That's fun. So
20:14
which is right up pen and tellers alley, right? So so I start working with the executive producers
20:22
and the magic consultant. And we took something that was a really simple method. And I started
20:29
to just put layer upon layer on top of this to really develop something that I really
20:34
thought would fool them. And so there's eight different layers to this piece that they
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want to just be able to say, Oh, we think you did this. They would say we think you did kind
20:44
of a combination of things. And so I went from a piece I've done literally thousands of
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times to literally killing it and rebirthing it. And I started practicing six to 10 hours
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a day. I would take 45 seconds of the routine and practice that 45 seconds, then reset it
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and then started to get at that minute. And I would do that all day long. And just did
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that day after day, I would do that for 10 days at a time, and then work on the next 45
21:17
seconds. And then do that work on the next 45 seconds. And then the week before I show
21:24
up for pen and teller, there's a another magician that I highly respect that's also a follower
21:32
of Christ. And he said, he calls me up. He said, Hey, I just heard you're going to be
21:37
on foolish next week. And I was like, yeah, he's like, I think you should throw in the
21:41
towel. I was like, what? I was like, I mean, we've been praying, we've been working. I'm
21:48
like, where is this coming from? He's all look, I've worked with them before. You know,
21:53
he's he's older than I am. He's yeah, he's worked with them before. He's like, they are
22:00
cruel towards Christians. And he's like, I don't think you should do this. And I was
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like, Oh, and he's like, I want you to watch some other videos, I'll send you some links
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out, you know, and you could look out for yourself that it's all over the internet. And
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he's like, I want you to pray about this. And this is a guy like I love this guy and respect
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him. And we've had a great relationship for a long time. And so I pray about it, but we
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just still feel like this strong and watched a bunch of stuff, a strong like urgency to
22:30
to go there and to be a light and to be who God's designed me to be to go in the world
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but not be of the world. And so I called him back. And he kind of like pleaded with me
22:41
a little bit more. And like one of his questions was like, do you really want a giant FU trophy?
22:48
If you haven't seen the trophy before, it says fool us in the letters F, the letters F and
22:55
you are huge. And then the, you know, for the pool is oh, oh, in real tiny letters is
23:01
like, do you really want a giant FU trophy? Do you think that's an accident? I'm like,
23:06
kind of, you know, but I didn't say that. But I understood that what he was saying is
23:14
like, do you want something that's going to kind of represent this worldly, you know,
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stuff? And so he prayed with me. He knew like I was committed to doing it and he prayed
23:23
that, you know, I would be alive that I'd fool him, that I'd do great, all that stuff.
23:28
And so I get away from that conversation and I just start praying more. Well, I start reading
23:35
through the book of Romans during that that time. Fast forward a week. It's the day of
23:40
the performance. And I have a long prayer that I wrote up and had a team of people that
23:45
via Zoom, we prayed together. But my prayer that morning was like, God, I pray that you
23:50
would help me to fool these two gods. And that morning I read through Romans 8, you know,
23:57
that famous chapter and came to that passage where if God is for us, FU, for us, who can
24:05
be against us. And like that for us just like stood out and I was like, whoa, God, if you're
24:11
for us, this trophy could go from full us to a giant FU to the world to for us. God,
24:18
you're in the business of redeeming things and turning the world upside down and Acts
24:23
17, 6, it says, you know, that they were men who turned the world upside down. I was like,
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God, I want to be a part of those men that turn the world upside down. And this is in
24:32
my prayer. You know, if you allow me to fool them today, I will turn the trophy upside down
24:38
if I win. And so, so I, I go downstairs, I go to the theater, they put me in, you know,
24:46
kind of the basement of pen and tellers like seller of like all their old illusions. I'm
24:52
looking around like, Oh, wow. Okay, we have a lot of stuff here. And eventually they call
24:57
me upstairs. You do a dress rehearsal right before you go on with pen and teller. The dress
25:04
rehearsal consists of a fake Allison, if you will, a stand in Allison because that's
25:10
who I'm going to do the piece for. She's the most pen and teller you're performing for
25:15
them. And so, so right before they come on, I do this rehearsal. And in the middle of
25:24
the rehearsal, I forget one of my lines. Now, I've worked on this once or twice a week with
25:29
the executive producers. They're in the room, the directors in the room, a stage manager,
25:35
a bunch of different people are in the room. And I'm like, Hey guys, I need my line. I
25:39
know you, you know it silence. Every time we practice zoom, if I forgot something, they
25:45
just say, Oh, it's this, you know, silence. And I'm like, Hey guys, seriously, I don't
25:49
know. And you know, the person's right here. I'm like, I guess I'm just going to do it.
25:54
And so I finish it. And they're like, Hey, we're not, you know, this after I finish,
25:59
they're like, we're not going to give you any lines anymore. It's like either six,
26:03
whatever, do it. And I'm like, Oh man, well, the line I missed was, I only have one shot
26:08
to get this right. And so they're like, you know, head backstage, we're going to bring
26:12
them out. So I walk backstage, I don't know if you're familiar with Hamilton, but there's
26:16
a song in there where I'm not going to miss my shot. So I'm literally backstage, not going
26:20
to miss my shot, not going to miss my shot. This is my shot. Don't miss my shot. You know,
26:24
and so then I walk out, you know, they invite me out. And if you're not familiar with Penn
26:29
and Teller, Penn does all of the talking in the show, and Teller is mute. He doesn't say
26:36
anything. But when I walk out there, Teller's like, Hey, Danny, this is the first time I've
26:40
ever heard him talk, you know, is all you're going to do great out there. I'm like, thanks,
26:45
he's like, have fun. I'm like, I'm looking forward to it. And then, you know, Penn says,
26:49
yeah, have fun. It's always fun seeing what people come up with looking forward to it.
26:55
And then they start talking amongst themselves. I do a couple stretches. And then Allison's
26:59
off to stage left and she's talking to the stage manager, and they finish up all the
27:05
lights come up. And by the way, there's 31 cameras in the room. So if you ever watch
27:11
the show, they have an iPad, I don't know if it's an iPad, but they have some sort of
27:16
device that they're on where they could look at all the different cameras. So you can't
27:20
just like fool them from one angle, you have to fool them from every angle. And so, Allison,
27:27
she's off to stage left. She introduces, walks over. I do the entire piece for them. And
27:33
then what happens is you walk in front of the table and there was actually an area to stand
27:40
if you're vaccinated, another area if you're not vaccinated. The crazy times are in. So
27:47
I take my place. We have a conversation on television. What it looks like is Alice and
27:54
I talk for about 10, 15 seconds. And then Penn tell her talk for about 10 or 15 seconds
27:59
about delusion. And then they go, okay, here's how we think you did it. In reality, that's
28:04
about a 15 to 20 minute conversation. And so Alice and I are talking, there's a whole
28:10
interview that's done. She's asking me tons of questions. They're talking about the piece
28:16
and the magic consultant who knew part of the method. I started to tell him like, here's
28:21
part of it. Here's part of it. He's oh, yeah, that's enough. If they figure out this much,
28:24
you know, that's enough. That's gonna, they're gonna say, you know, it didn't fool them.
28:29
And so they, they talk about it, eventually invite me back. And they, the first thing
28:38
that happens is Penn says, you know, Danny, there's imagine that if, you know, those holes,
28:45
I have metal plates that have holes, is like, imagine one of those is off center. That would
28:50
give him a magician a certain amount of leeway to do certain things. And then I immediately
28:54
said, well, that's not how, you know, it's, it's done. And he's like, Oh, no, we're not
28:58
saying that's our guess. I was like, dang it. How do you like, by process of elimination,
29:03
you know, like, so I'm like, okay, I can't say anything anymore, because how many guesses
29:09
does this guy get, right? And so they, they take another guess and, which was if the device
29:16
was gimmick that I welcome them up to say you're, you're well, or no, I didn't welcome
29:20
them up. I said you're welcome to check it out. I was told by the magic consultant that
29:26
executive producers, oh, yeah, they won't come up. It doesn't matter. Can you imagine
29:31
like them coming up like there's gimmicks everywhere, you know, and when they did come
29:36
up and pen put his giant claw by some of the gimmicks, I'm like, Oh, no. But it was like,
29:42
well, we're just going to have to like trust some of the psychology of like, I didn't
29:46
move anything. In fact, I dropped one of the gimmicks, like right by his hand, because
29:51
I know if you take something and you put it on the other side, it immediately draws attention
29:55
to it. And so I just like, Oh, it doesn't matter and drop it right in front of them.
30:00
And then, you know, they examined it and then pen said, well, if that's not how it's done,
30:06
you definitely fooled us and the trophy came down. And then I, you know, I shook his hand
30:13
and I took the trophy. Here's the trophy. But I had practiced what it would look like
30:20
it in my room, you know, but I was just like, okay, I have to turn it upside down. And
30:25
so I grabbed I say, thank you. And I turned upside down and walk off stage. Well, little
30:31
that I know they would freak out. So the everybody. So you have two large teams, one
30:42
large team backstage from another stage managers back there. There's another person directing
30:50
different stuff back there. All your sound tag, all that stuff is matter. The other magicians
30:55
are ready now back there. Well, when I get back, there starts kind of bickering between
31:01
the stage manager, like, we need to get Danny back here. The other guy, like, we're not
31:04
left on the back. We need to get the other team. And they go back and forth. The executive
31:08
producers like, no, we need to finish one shot. I knew exactly why. Right. But I was
31:14
just like, well, and this was this is something that's like between me and God, like I wasn't
31:19
like, I didn't know what what was going to happen. You know, I just was like praying
31:23
and went, got it. You know, I want to be a part of your redemption process. I can turn
31:26
the trophy upside down and represent, you know, that this is now represents for us that you
31:31
are for us for for pen and teller that you're for the executive producers that you're for
31:36
us. Right. And so I, I'm like watching them kind of go back and forth. And then eventually
31:44
I'm like, what do you want me to do? He's all you're not going back out there. And so
31:49
they argued out. And then it's like, nope, we're going to bring the next people on. And
31:54
so they went, okay, now you can go back out, grab your stuff. And so I talked to pen and
31:58
tell her for a minute while I was out there. And, you know, but basically I just grabbed
32:02
my stuff and went off stage. So I had no idea whether that part would air or not, or whether
32:09
they would cut it. But they took a camera from a little bit further back. And sure enough,
32:14
you have that moment where I turn the trophy upside down. And yeah, and so what a crazy
32:20
moment in time.
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32:49
Yeah, great experience. I'm glad you were able to go into all that detail because again,
32:54
when you watch the video, it's just like, okay, this is happening. And I mean, I can't
32:57
imagine the amount of time that you put into practicing it and, you know, not doing a card
33:01
trick, but choosing to do something that could have more things that could go wrong. I'm sure
33:04
that was stressful, but what a cool experience for you to do. Now I want to get into some
33:09
kind of categorical stuff with kind of magic and different magicians. So for you personally,
33:13
because I did some looking up online and people have their own opinions and everything like
33:17
that. I want to know who you think in your opinion is the greatest magician of all time.
33:23
And then separately, and they might be the same person. Who's your favorite magician
33:27
of all time? Wow, that's a favorite kid. I'm doing it. Exactly is. There's so many great
33:37
influences. If I, if I had to pick one, there's the thing is, is like most of the guys that
33:43
I love and I'm like, I just think their stuff is off the charts. Amazing. Are people that
33:50
only in the community would know? So Dia Vernon would be that person for me. He had more influence
33:56
on my magic probably than any other person. And I would read his stuff and devour it and
34:02
work on his material. Of the more famous magicians, David Copperfield had a massive influence.
34:11
You know, I'd watch him on television and was completely like inspired. But every, his
34:17
inspiration for me, if you ever have ever watched one of his shows, he does all of this like
34:22
giant grand illusion. But then he does this one like piece that will be close up magic
34:28
every time in a show. Just one, one, maybe two pieces. Well, he would always say like,
34:34
that's the, the piece that always does the best. Well, when I was, you know, I think 19 or 20 years
34:41
old. Well, actually no, when I was 17 years old, I did a show for 2000 people for the first time.
34:49
It was really just one or two tricks that I did that somebody knew I did, you know, slide
34:55
of hand, they brought me up and I did it. I had no idea if it worked well for 2000 people. It did.
35:02
I think at 20 years old, I did it for the first time for 500 people, a whole show. And that kind
35:07
of gave the genesis for like, oh, this could work to do a whole close up show. Because when I started
35:14
doing it, it's become a little bit more popular, maybe in the last four or five years. But when I
35:19
first started doing it, I couldn't find anybody, Christian or not, that was doing a whole close-up
35:25
show on stage and having it work. I talked to guys that said, oh, yeah, that's terrible. It
35:32
doesn't work. We've seen guys do it. And they would name like, you know, popular guys and I would
35:37
watch it. And basically they would sit down on stage at a table and invite people up. And so they,
35:44
they didn't have like any interaction. It was just like, I'm just going to do my close-up stuff here
35:49
and you should like it. And so I had to figure out kind of that combination of
35:53
stage presence, if you will, and using different parts of the stage and using, you know, different
36:01
people in the audience, yet still using just primarily, you know, cards, coins, rubber bands,
36:07
cup and ball, you know, things that are close up in nature to watch. But what we would hear is,
36:12
I was in the back of a room, but it was like, I was right there with you. And so that helped us
36:18
to get a glimpse inside that this could work for any size group. Well, that was actually going to
36:24
be my next question. In your opinion, what kind of magic is better? You know, the up close slide
36:29
of hand stuff like the David Blaine stuff on the street kind of a thing or the big theatrical
36:34
productions like David Copperfield does. And I am asking, you know, which is better? I know
36:38
they're both difficult, but what do you think is better? Yeah, I think you're right. They're both
36:43
difficult and different routes. Like one is very theatrical, you know, and we could say, oh, well,
36:48
you know, they're just dancing around a box. But to think about the choreography and the moments
36:54
and the timing that goes into a stage piece like that is, is part of the, you know, creating that
37:00
experience. Now, I think most magicians would agree, like the technical side of close-up magic,
37:07
just requires a lot more technique and development that way. But stage magic, it just takes a different
37:14
mind to develop great stage pieces. And really, when you develop a piece, you know, like,
37:21
"Sawing a Woman in Two," which 2021 was the 100th year anniversary of "Sawing a Woman in Two." And
37:30
at the time, that wasn't just the greatest, like, magic trick. It was the greatest piece of
37:36
entertainment. People were coming from everywhere to see a woman. Like it was, it was like this
37:42
piece that people would hear about and everybody wanted to see it. And so now, you know, it's just
37:47
kind of commonplace. But yeah, for me, I think that the slide of hand is the stuff that I enjoy
37:55
the most. I'll put it that way. I know there's other people that might enjoy stage, but I do think
38:00
they're the same art with different branches. You know, so you have like comedy magic, close-up
38:06
magic, stage magic, you know, there's different branches of magic. And I've learned to enjoy,
38:12
you know, most of those stuff. Yeah, I would say when you strip away the dancers and the lights and
38:17
the smoke and all that stuff, and it's just right there in front of you, like, that's why when you
38:21
watch some of the David Blaine videos and you're seeing these celebrities or people, like they're
38:24
right there on top of them. And they can't figure out what he's doing. Like, it's mind-blowing, even
38:28
just watching it on video. But one thing I was curious about as well, Danny, is your thoughts on
38:33
the masked magician. Okay, so that was Val Valentino in the 90s. There was a TV show called Breaking
38:40
the Magicians Code. And I remember being very entertained by this as a viewer, right? Because
38:46
I'm in like elementary school at the time and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this guy's like showing us all
38:50
these magician secrets and all these types of things. How is he still alive? Why have they buried
38:54
him in the desert by now? But I can't imagine being happy about it if I myself were a working
39:00
magician. But then other people were like, no, Val Valentino was pushing magicians to be better
39:05
and to create better illusions and things like that. But for you, were you aware of that show at
39:11
the time? And I guess, well, you know, okay, so what were your thoughts on the masked magician?
39:14
So initially, what he was doing was revealing mainly stage magic. So it didn't have as a big of
39:22
an impact on my career. Here's the problem with going like, Oh, it's just going to push magicians
39:28
all that kind of stuff. As it comes down to an ethics issue is you don't have you don't own the
39:34
right to the blood, the sweat, the tears that went into developing those pieces. And so that's the
39:41
painful part. But it's been going on for years. There was, you know, cigarettes you could get at
39:47
one point. I want to say this is like in the twenties or thirties were inside of the pack of
39:52
cigarettes. There was the revealing of a magic trick. Now it was like a really simple like thing,
39:58
but it's been going on for for years. And now with the rise of YouTube, obviously you could get
40:03
almost anything out there. And the excuse that way is I'm more interested in how it's done. If you
40:11
look at magic as a puzzle, but magic isn't designed to be a puzzle. Nobody at the end of building a
40:18
puzzle is like, my mind is blown. I do not know where reality is right now. That's not the way
40:24
a puzzle works. I don't care. Name any puzzle you want. No, you know, Rubik's Cube, arguably the
40:30
greatest puzzle of our day, right? Nobody like solves it. And they're just like, this is the
40:37
greatest moment. You know, but when David Copperfield makes the Statue of Liberty disappear,
40:43
when you have something, if you've ever been to a close up show and something changes right in
40:48
your hands, there's a moment of astonishment that is real. You know, the sleight of hand and all
40:54
that kind of stuff, you know, isn't the real part that could be explained. But those moments that
40:59
take us back to that child, childlike wonder is real. And that's the part that you can't explain
41:07
is what is it that that create or that? I guess that's the deeper part that interests me is more
41:13
the psychology of how do you fool somebody? How? But with Penn and Teller, how did I figure out?
41:18
How do you fool two guys that know everything, you know, and had to come at it from different
41:24
angles? And so, yeah, exposure, I think is just a part of the culture now. But to me,
41:31
ethically, I've designed my own pieces and they take years to develop. And for somebody, in fact,
41:38
you could look at quote, unquote, the exposure of my tricks. Somebody has like, here's how Danny did
41:43
it. That's not how I did it. That's just that guy's theory on how it's done. And he comes up,
41:49
he put a lot of time into this thing, both the video side of it. And coming up with a method,
41:55
I was like, wow, that's like a legitimate method. It wouldn't work. But it's like a legitimate,
42:01
if I was doing it with paper, maybe that could work, but doing it with metal. And he didn't,
42:06
he didn't put that into that equation. But it's kind of a bummer for those things that he doesn't
42:11
have to put two years of his life into developing that he just has to put he probably put, you know,
42:18
maybe 100 hours into that project, maybe a little bit more. But I put years of my life into developing
42:24
that. And so, but at the end of the day, he doesn't expose it. But for people who aren't in the know,
42:32
which there's only two people in the world who know how I did it, you know, they're going to go,
42:37
oh, that's how he did it. And assume that that's true when it's, you know, it's not. So it's
42:42
those things that I think are just part of the culture. But I think it comes down to an ethics
42:46
is, do you have the right to do that? Is that is it? But people aren't approaching it that way.
42:54
I'm not, I don't think most followers across your going, how can I expose everybody around me?
42:59
Right, I understand. So I appreciate you going into that detail. Now, this next question is from my
43:05
wife, because as I was preparing the interview, I was like, Hey, babe, what would you ask a Christian
43:09
magician? And that's the only tee up that I gave her. And she immediately responded, if you could do
43:15
a magic trick for Jesus, which trick are you going with? Because I mean, this is a son of God here.
43:21
Like I'm assuming he can figure it out. Like if he can figure out what people are thinking in their
43:25
heads and call them out for it. You know, I'm assuming that, you know, you'd have to do something a
43:28
little bit different. But if you're before Jesus, and you could do one trick for him, what are you doing?
43:33
Wow. Wow. So first of all, let's just be clear. I don't think I can fool Jesus.
43:43
We're all assuming the same thing. But honestly, like I look at all of this stuff, you know,
43:50
we're a talk spot, you know, in all things to glorify Christ. And so, you know, we pray before
43:55
every show asking God to give us favor that this would be the best show we've ever done. And so I
44:02
feel like all of it, you know, like I'm really trying to honor him with what I do. But if I was
44:10
to pick one, it would be the prediction that I do at the end of my show. But that would mean
44:17
Jesus would have to sit through the whole show to get it. You know, but the reason why is I always
44:23
try to save my best stuff for last. But it also, to me, it represents what Jesus does in our life so
44:32
well is just to give you like a little glimpse is at the end of my show, I have books that are
44:37
scattered all over. I have hundreds of cards just everywhere. I have paper that's been ripped up
44:43
that's everywhere. And I say, you know, what if in the middle of this mess, there's actually a plan?
44:50
What if the middle of our crazy lives, there's actually a plan? And so I wanted to give you a
44:57
glimpse of that. And then I go through the prediction. And I say, if I could come up with,
45:02
you know, a plan and everything is like, oh, he meant to drop that card. He meant that book. He
45:07
meant, you know, like, it's all, all of a sudden, it's like, everything's coming together. It's like,
45:12
you know, when you watch Sixth Sense for the first time, you're like, right, I'm trying to
45:17
create that moment where you see all these pieces coming together. And I think to, and I know Jesus
45:26
sees me, but if he's like in the flesh thing, I don't, I'd want to see and just say, you know,
45:32
he's the one that could do that for us to show us how things make sense in the middle of our mess,
45:39
because our prayers like, let's just get out. But Jesus seems to say, no, I'm going to be with you
45:45
and take you through. And we, we don't like going through, you know, the struggle, the pain,
45:51
the suffering, but it's clear in the scriptures that we don't get out void that. Absolutely.
45:57
Another thing I wanted to talk to you about, Danny, is you actually wrote a book. And so I've
46:01
got to hear, I appreciate you sending this our way to know I can't make your wife disappear,
46:04
a magician's guide to a magical marriage. So to my knowledge, you were the only magician/illusionist
46:12
that I know of that also has a marriage advice book. Okay. So if there's another one out there,
46:16
I don't know that that's a big category of books. So take us through. I did have a question about
46:21
something specifically from the book. But for you, why write a book? Why not write a how to do
46:26
magic book or magic for kids or something like that? Why write a marriage advice book?
46:30
Yeah, it is. As a pastor, I end up, you know, doing a lot of marriage counseling over the years. My
46:36
wife and I, you know, done our fair share of counseling. And we've gotten a bunch of conferences,
46:42
read a bunch of books over the years. And the thing is, we just wanted to figure out how can we
46:47
help people have a strong marriage? Like, we just feel like this is the foundation for culture,
46:54
period is strong marriages. And they seem to be eroding fast. And I'll just say America. I don't
47:01
know about the world, but America. And so we were coming up on our 25th anniversary, maybe year 22,
47:09
23. And I was like, what would it look like to take biblical principles and magic principles
47:16
and figure out where those line up and put a book together where we could, you know, there's a lot
47:22
of fun and, you know, of the magic side of it, but also some depth with like, here's some biblical
47:28
principles and practical strategies for how you can live this out in your marriage. And so,
47:33
yeah, for our 25th anniversary, we released or actually we didn't release it then, but we were
47:40
in the process of finishing in and worked out a book deal with it by that point. I wanted to
47:44
release it on that date, but we ended up releasing it the same year. Gotcha. And so there's a lot of
47:50
great tangible marriage advice in there. So guys, that will be in the show notes as well that you
47:54
can pick up a copy off your website. But there's kind of a crazy story in this book that I've got
47:58
to get you to give me a little bit of info on. And it's from the introduction. I think you know
48:02
where I'm going with this. Okay, you tell a crazy story. Okay, like if you put yourself there,
48:06
guys for listening to this, put yourself in this position and imagine what you would be thinking.
48:10
You were underwater in a barrel. Okay, you're handcuffed and you lost your cool. So you lost
48:16
your cool in the middle of this trick. And you know, there are some consequences. If you lose
48:20
your cool and you know, can't keep yourself together, you had to get saved. So I want to kind of get
48:25
an idea of what was that like? And then how do you get your nerve back and you know, get your edge
48:31
back as a magician, you know, needing to do these things that are supposed to look more
48:35
death-defying than they actually are, but are dangerous. How do you regain that after having such a
48:40
snafu? Yeah, so that was in New York that I don't I don't know if I talk about this part of it. I
48:48
think I do is the night before my daughter saw it for the first time and my wife ended up like
48:54
carrying her out of the room. And you know, she was freaking out. And so I end up in New York the
49:00
next night. I'm doing this piece. And I would assume most of you haven't done underwater underwater.
49:08
No, no. And so I trained for years and years and I have been able to work with the best
49:14
escapeologist in the world that's trained, trained David Blaine. That's trained Chris Angel. That's
49:19
trained guys you wouldn't know that are different escapeologists around the world. And I was able
49:25
he he lives pretty close to me. So I've met with him for decades now and he you know trained me
49:34
in these situations like here's what you need to do. So we would practice and when I would practice,
49:41
you know, we would always like, you know, get a handcuff off. And that's the only way you could
49:45
get the outside world to hear. So you tap from with the inside or with the handcuff on the inside
49:52
of the chamber, you know, because there's no other way for them to physically see you. They could only
49:57
hear you. Well, that night, I'm underwater. And I realized I've had my mind on my daughter and her
50:05
freaking out. And I'm not out of my first handcuff. And I'm starting to lose my air. And I don't know
50:13
how long I was under. I know at that time, I could hold my breath for a little over four minutes.
50:19
But I had to be in the three minute range. And I start to let out air. And I'm like,
50:24
I'm not even out of the first handcuff. So instead of hitting the edge with the inside of the
50:31
chamber with a handcuff, I'm trying to hit it with both hands. Well, I could hear the music is so
50:37
loud out there. I'm like, there's no way Jeremiah's going to hear me. So I try to get out of the first
50:42
handcuff. I get just one part of it out. And I start clicking. He has at least five of the locks
50:49
on on the outside. I'm like, I don't have much time left. And I'm losing air by the second. And
50:56
then all of a sudden, you know, I hear the lift and I just bolt out. And I'm like, you know,
51:03
and just completely exhausted and out of breath. And Jeremiah and I talk for a minute. He's like,
51:09
I don't think you should go back in there. I'm like, dude, I am not. I am not going to just
51:16
get out. I'm doing this thing. He's like, okay, you need to take some deep breaths. He could tell
51:21
like, you know, like I'm exhausted already. And so I do, you know, a few breathing exercises there.
51:28
And then I do it again. I go under and I cannot get focused. I come back out again. And Jeremiah's
51:36
like, this is the last time I don't care what happens. If you don't get out this time,
51:41
I'm pulling you out physically. You're not doing this. And so I convince him to do it one more time.
51:48
I go under and same thing. I just am not in a place where I could focus. And so I come up again
51:56
and Jeremiah's like, we need to pull the plug on this. And so I get out. I go dry off. And I come
52:02
back out. And I talk about, you know, sometimes we just fail. And sometimes we make mistakes. And
52:07
sometimes we're not going to get out. We're not going to escape. And we have to deal with the pain
52:12
of that. And I literally just wanted to escape and just run 100 miles away. But I go to the back
52:19
of the room and person after person was so moved by that message. Honestly, I couldn't tell you like
52:26
verbatim what I said. I just know the Holy Spirit had to have been speaking because people were
52:32
just so moved by out of the back of the room. Just thank you for not getting out. I'm all what?
52:38
This is dumb. I was supposed to get out. You know, but they were like, some people thought that's
52:44
really the way I did it every time. I was like, no, I get out every time. But those are hard
52:52
moments to go back to. The next time was difficult to like, am I going to get out of this again?
52:58
I had another situation with a straight jacket. And there's a hundred gimmick straight jackets.
53:04
The problem is, is when you work with the best in the world, he's all, I will never put you in a
53:10
in a straight jacket that's that's gimmick. And not only that, I'm going to put you in a small
53:17
straight jacket. So you will have to struggle every time. You will never have to act in this
53:24
thing. I'm like, okay, well, when he strapped me in there the first time, I was like, this is
53:30
absolutely impossible. How am I going to escape from this? But that's when I do, you know,
53:36
escape stuff for this thing with the Russian light is I try to create as much believability,
53:41
even though I am working on always having a way out. It's several minutes.
53:47
Man, that I just got to tell you, like I'm getting like sweaty palms, even thinking about that
53:52
situation. Because it's like, I don't want to be anywhere near something like that. So I, but I
53:56
appreciate you going into that detail. But Danny, before we let you go, there is something that I
54:00
like to do towards the end of my interviews. It's a segment called what would you say to someone
54:04
that said? So what I'm going to do is I'm going to say, what would you say to someone that said,
54:08
and I'm going to fill in the blank. But here's the deal. This is lightning round. Okay,
54:12
30, you get 30 seconds maximum to respond to this random thing. And it's going to be all over the
54:18
place, a 30 seconds maximum. You're up for it. I love it. All right. Okay, here's the first one.
54:24
What would you say to someone that said magic is for children?
54:27
I would say children don't know what magic is. They, you can't fool them.
54:34
You know, the more you understand the world around you, the more you'll appreciate magic.
54:41
All right. Next one here. What would you say to someone that said,
54:46
there is no such thing as the perfect magic trick?
54:49
I would agree. It's always a work in process. You know, it's, it's a living breathing art,
54:56
even though I've done a piece a thousand times, the next time I do it, I have to make sure I'm
55:00
cognizant of everything that's around me to make sure that that piece will work for that particular
55:05
audience. All right. Next one here. What would you say to someone that said magic in all forms
55:11
is satanic. I would say, let's have a conversation about that. I think that's a long conversation.
55:18
I think that's a deep set of beliefs. And I'd, I'd really want to be, and I have done this. I'd
55:23
be curious of where, where that came from, where they were taught that and how I want to hear their
55:29
story. Yeah. All right. What would you say to someone that said, I don't like being fooled?
55:36
Don't come to my show is, yeah, it is, it's not just about being fooled. It's about
55:45
experiencing that wonder and that amazement that's rare in our culture.
55:49
Absolutely. What would you say to someone that said, my kid says that they want to be a magician
55:54
someday? Making mom proud. Hopefully, hopefully that's how it goes. All right. Just a few more
56:04
left here. What would you say to someone that said, I don't know that God can save my marriage?
56:09
As I would say, God's in the business of doing the impossible. He loves you and hang in there.
56:20
Don't give up. Do whatever it takes on your side of things to try to create a great marriage.
56:26
All right. Just a couple more here. What would you say to someone that said,
56:30
I know how you did that trick. I would probably just smile and laugh and like,
56:35
Oh, okay. I'm sure you do. Yeah. You know, and usually I'll listen to their method and go like,
56:42
that's not how I did it. But, you know, smile or not, smile or not.
56:46
All right, Danny. Last question of the day. What would you say to someone that said,
56:50
I really wish you could make my wife disappear?
56:53
I would say she's, she's already paid to have you disappear.
56:59
Hey, and I will say that's not me saying that that's somebody else. I love my wife. I don't want
57:03
her to disappear. But Danny, I really appreciate all the detail that you've given us and all the
57:07
stories that you told us. But that is all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your
57:10
chest? No, thank you for having me on. Really. Yeah. Thankful for what you're doing, Kyle.
57:15
And yeah, that's it. All right. Danny Ray, thank you for coming on Daunton Life of Man's podcast.
57:20
There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Danny Ray. But before we let you go,
57:25
we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping
57:28
men to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual mental and physical resilience. So
57:33
the link I've got for you today gets you all kinds of stuff. And it is just the link to Danny's
57:37
website, Danny Ray magic.com. You can buy the book there. You can watch the video of when he was on
57:41
full us with pen and teller. All that information is there. You can check it out. All right, guys,
57:45
thanks so much for listening to the show. We do appreciate it. Wherever you're listening to this,
57:48
please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five star review. If you want me to come speak
57:53
live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info at Undaunted Life. That's
57:58
I N F O at Undaunted Life. You can follow us on Instagram and tick tock. And like us on Facebook,
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and you can check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content
58:06
like this coming your way. Just go to www dot Undaunted Life. And we want to also think the band
58:11
August Burns read for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast
58:15
is our song, cutting the ties, which is off their 10th anniversary re recording of their album
58:19
leveler. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back
58:26
darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
58:56
[Music]