DALLAS JENKINS | The Making of The Chosen (Ep. 385)

0:00 (upbeat music)

0:02 - This is "Undaunted Life" a man's podcast.

0:21 I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.

0:24 All right guys, today we've got a special guest

0:26 on the podcast, his name is Dallas Jenkins.

0:28 So he's a film and television director, writer,

0:30 and producer, and he's the creator, director,

0:32 and co-writer of "The Chosen."

0:34 So guys, you guys, especially in this audience,

0:36 you love "The Chosen."

0:37 This is an episodic, season-based series

0:41 about Jesus and the Apostles, okay?

0:43 And so this is the largest crowdfunded film project

0:46 or a television film project of all time.

0:49 And I think by now we can say it's the most successful.

0:51 We're about to go into season three.

0:53 So guys, if you were listening to this on time,

0:54 season three launches this Friday in theaters.

0:58 So they're doing the first two episodes of season three

1:00 on film on the big screen on November the 18th this Friday.

1:05 And that's the first two episodes.

1:06 And then the rest of the season

1:07 will start being released in December.

1:08 So if you can't make it to the theaters

1:10 to check this out, obviously it'll be available in the app.

1:13 But guys, the cool thing about this is

1:15 you guys all have your favorite shows.

1:16 I mean, in this show, we mentioned "Breaking Bad"

1:18 and "Game of Thrones" and "Rome" and "The Office"

1:21 and everybody has their favorite show.

1:22 And maybe you're paying for a service to get that a show

1:26 or maybe you've paid for the DVD box sets back in the day

1:28 or something like that.

1:29 But this show is completely free, completely free.

1:33 You don't even have to give them your email.

1:34 You can download the app.

1:36 Guys, all this will be in the show notes.

1:37 But it is literally one of the easiest things

1:39 in the entire world to watch.

1:41 And the thing about this interview and about this series

1:45 is I came into the series and I found it during season two

1:49 and I went back to watch in season one.

1:50 It is one of the best portrayals I've seen

1:53 of Jesus in the Apostles because it goes into what it was like

1:56 to potentially walk around with these people.

1:58 And so that's where we're gonna talk about in this interview.

2:00 We're gonna talk about how people get really kind of offended

2:03 by the fact that they show some things in the chosen

2:05 that we don't see in scripture.

2:07 And part of it is so that you can get a better sense

2:09 of maybe what these people were doing in the first century

2:11 at the time.

2:12 And so we go into what does he do with all that criticism

2:15 that comes from the show.

2:16 We're gonna go into where he got the idea for the chosen

2:19 and kind of how his background and Hollywood

2:21 and other things kind of led to that.

2:23 Why not just do a movie or a mini series like everybody else?

2:26 Why do episodic seasons?

2:28 We dig into some stuff that's gonna be coming with season three.

2:31 We're gonna be digging into how he found Jonathan Rumi,

2:34 who is the actor that portrays Jesus,

2:37 who is in my opinion, the best Jesus that we have seen

2:40 on film.

2:40 Why he's casting people or having people work

2:44 on this TV series that aren't Christians.

2:46 People that come from all these different worldviews

2:48 and walks of life, what does the future of this look like?

2:50 How are they gonna wrap up the story in seven seasons?

2:53 We talk about the lion and Judah.

2:54 And I specifically ask him if we are going to see

2:57 a depiction of Jesus clearing the temple, right?

3:00 My favorite example of the lion and Judah.

3:02 And I really thought his answer was interesting.

3:04 So you guys are gonna have to stick around for that.

3:05 And before we get into the interview,

3:06 I do wanna bring up our sponsor for today's show

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3:10 So as I've talked about on the show before,

3:12 this is big time attention to business owners,

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3:17 A lot of soon to be entrepreneurs have taken advantage

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3:21 but the mission of the upper room in the king's council

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4:07 I've spoken to their group before.

4:08 If you do want more information on this,

4:09 go back to episode 355 of this podcast.

4:11 That's with Riley Meek.

4:13 It's called The King Entrepreneurship and Money.

4:15 He is the founder of the upper room in The King's Council.

4:17 But in that interview, he did something kind of special.

4:19 He wanted to make sure that you guys

4:21 could get specifically in touch with him.

4:23 'Cause a lot of times the main person keeps himself

4:25 completely isolated, but he wants you all in this audience

4:28 to reach out to him directly.

4:30 If you think you can get some value

4:31 out of some of the tools that they're giving

4:33 to entrepreneurs and soon to be entrepreneurs.

4:35 So he wants you to text upper room.

4:37 That's the words, upper room to 727-472-3860.

4:42 That will be in the show notes.

4:44 So if you're driving, don't be dangerous.

4:46 You can check it out later.

4:47 Upper room to 727-472-3860

4:50 to get an application to schedule an actual one-on-one

4:53 with Riley Meek, the upper room in The King's Council founder.

4:56 So again, that's upper room.

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4:59 R-O-O-M to 727-472-3860

5:04 to schedule your one-on-one with the founder

5:06 of The Upper Room in The King's Council, Riley Meek.

5:08 So guys, I had so much fun with Dallas in this interview.

5:10 We didn't have all the time in the world,

5:11 but we got a lot of content cranked into this very,

5:14 very small amount of time we had under an hour

5:17 to pull this off.

5:18 I think we did it, but guys, without further ado,

5:20 let's get into it.

5:22 - Dallas Jenkins, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.

5:25 - Thank you so much, brother.

5:25 I appreciate you having me on.

5:27 - Well, no one else is gonna know that this happened,

5:28 but I'm just gonna be straight up honest.

5:29 I just, I have, I'm having to re-ask this question

5:32 that I'm asking you because I just asked it two seconds ago,

5:34 but I forgot to hit the appropriate button.

5:36 So here we go.

5:36 Now you're fully prepared for this massive first question.

5:39 So I always like to get people to describe who they are

5:42 and where they came from a little bit,

5:43 but you've got a unique background.

5:44 So I don't wanna, you know, take you in a direction

5:46 that you don't necessarily wanna talk about,

5:47 but I wanna know how you got into the world of film

5:50 and television, did it have anything to do with your dad,

5:52 Jerry, who wrote the left behind novels

5:54 that everyone in my audience knows about.

5:55 You know, you spent the majority

5:56 of not all of your career in the, you know,

5:58 faith-based entertainment industry.

6:00 So jump off from wherever you wanna jump off

6:02 in that completely convoluted introductory question.

6:05 (laughs)

6:07 - Thank you for that.

6:08 We no longer have enough time, I guess.

6:10 - Oh, dang it.

6:11 (laughs)

6:12 - But, no, so specific to your question,

6:14 I would say, when I was a freshman in high school,

6:17 at that time, I was a jock, I was really into sports,

6:20 played multiple sports, wanted to be a sports broadcaster,

6:23 sports was one of my primary obsessions.

6:25 I was also a believer, I'd been a believer most of my life

6:28 and that was another obsession of mine.

6:31 But when I was a freshman in high school,

6:33 I was watching TV and saw the movie

6:35 one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest.

6:37 It's a movie from the '70s with Jack Nicholson.

6:39 And that changed the course of my life.

6:42 When I watched that movie, and ironically enough,

6:44 the scene that changed me and made me wanna make movies

6:47 was actually related to sports broadcasting.

6:49 Jack Nicholson is denied the opportunity

6:51 to watch the World Series while he's in this mental institution.

6:54 And so he, as he's pouting, he goes over,

6:57 sits in front of the TV and starts broadcasting

7:01 on his own a fake game at an empty, at a blank screen.

7:04 And the other inmates start getting into it and cheering

7:07 and it was so emotionally powerful,

7:10 I was practically standing up.

7:12 I was just, I just would so into it.

7:13 And I thought, whatever that is, I wanna do that.

7:16 I want to rouse in audiences what this is doing for me.

7:20 And I did think at the time too,

7:22 like imagine if you could do that from a faith perspective.

7:25 If you could do that in a story that reflects my life

7:28 and experience and my passions and beliefs,

7:31 which at the time, you couldn't find much at all

7:36 that was watchable, that's still true to some extent,

7:39 but things have gotten a lot better.

7:40 But back then, if you're a Christian

7:41 and you wanna watch something that reflects your faith,

7:44 you're relegated primarily to church basement videos.

7:47 And so I wanted to make a difference.

7:49 I wanted to tell stories, but tell them

7:51 with the kind of quality that that movie had.

7:54 So the second thing that shifted my course was,

7:58 I was mowing the lawn, I'd started my career,

8:01 I'd done a couple movies.

8:02 I was thinking through what my next project was gonna be.

8:07 And I was mowing the lawn in Los Angeles

8:09 and I felt, this has happened maybe,

8:10 I mean, it's less probably less than five times in my life

8:12 where you really feel God making something

8:14 very clear on your heart.

8:15 It's as though he's speaking to you.

8:17 It's not an inaudible voice, but it's crystal clear.

8:20 And it was like, I want you to make movies

8:23 for my people too, like quit apologizing,

8:26 'cause it's a very common thing for filmmakers of faith

8:28 to do is like, well, I'm not a Christian filmmaker.

8:32 I'm a filmmaker who happens to be a Christian.

8:34 And faith-based movies suck.

8:36 We all know that I'm distancing myself from that.

8:38 That was kind of my thing.

8:39 And I felt God kind of laying on my heart

8:41 like quit apologizing for me.

8:44 The problem with a lot of faith-based movies

8:47 isn't that they're, the thing that turns people off

8:50 isn't that they're gospel-centered

8:51 or isn't that they have a strong message.

8:53 It's that they're not usually good.

8:55 They're not actually--

8:56 - Yeah, they suck, and they're terrible.

8:57 - Well, yeah, and what's false sentimentality

9:00 is something that's accused of for a lot of projects,

9:03 especially Christian projects.

9:05 And when you're overly sentimental,

9:07 the reason that that term gets applied

9:10 is because something isn't true.

9:11 So when you're watching a movie

9:13 and there's a resolution that feels unrealistic,

9:17 that's what makes it falsely sentimental.

9:19 That's what makes it overly sentimental.

9:21 And so I just realized, okay, it's not being specific

9:26 or being explicit even that turns people away.

9:29 It's being false.

9:30 It's being unfair.

9:31 It's glossing over the truth.

9:33 And so anyway, I decided, all right, I'm gonna embrace it.

9:37 I'm going to unabashedly be make movies and TV

9:41 that reflect my faith.

9:42 I'm not gonna apologize for it.

9:44 And the next movie I did was a movie called What If,

9:47 which came out back in 2010.

9:48 The budget was like $600,000.

9:50 It's like that movie was easily the best thing

9:54 that I'd done up to that point.

9:55 It still continues to generate profit 12, 13 years later,

9:59 resonated really well, had a strong message,

10:01 but was also, I believe, particularly for its budget,

10:03 a good movie.

10:04 And I just, from then on, I just said,

10:07 if this doesn't reflect my faith,

10:09 this doesn't point people to Jesus in some way,

10:12 it's just not worth my time.

10:13 So that is what, now there's a lot more to it,

10:16 including a significant massive career failure

10:19 that left me wanting to quit the business

10:21 before I did the chosen.

10:23 But those are the two moments

10:24 that I think most answer your question of,

10:27 why did I get into this business?

10:30 And then why did I actually embrace

10:32 or work within the faith space?

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11:06 - Well, one thing that you're kind of talking about

11:09 and talking about other content,

11:10 'cause we've had other Christian content creators on here,

11:12 Harold Cronk being one of them.

11:13 And he says-

11:14 - Oh, I know how I heard about Cronk real.

11:15 - Yeah, and so he has some of the same sentiments to her.

11:17 It's like, no, no, no, people don't hate your movie

11:19 because it's Christian, they hate it because it stinks.

11:21 It's just a horrible movie.

11:23 But I think it's also the inauthenticity.

11:25 Now, I'm sure if that's how you could call the word,

11:27 but it's inauthentic.

11:28 It doesn't feel right.

11:29 It doesn't ring true.

11:30 I just watched a documentary yesterday

11:32 that I'll leave nameless at.

11:33 I just didn't really like it

11:34 because I was like, I just don't believe you.

11:36 The person running this is like,

11:37 I don't believe you're actually curious about that.

11:39 And so whenever you get into the more gritty stuff

11:43 and you get into the more real things,

11:45 well, you open yourself up to negative audience reception,

11:48 potentially, and we'll maybe get to that here in a second.

11:50 But people in my audience are gonna hate me

11:53 if I don't actually ask you

11:54 and maybe potentially waste a little bit of time.

11:56 Give us the SparkNotes version

11:57 about what almost bounced you out of the business

11:59 because I always love the stories of zigging

12:02 when zagging should have happened.

12:03 And hey, we wouldn't have gotten this car,

12:06 if this explosion hadn't happened underground

12:08 at some point 200 years ago.

12:09 So give us the real short version of that story.

12:12 - So I had an opportunity in 2016 for my dream situation,

12:20 which was, I had left Hollywood or I'd left Los Angeles.

12:24 I was still making product,

12:25 but I had moved back to Chicago where I'd grown up

12:27 and I was working at a mega church in Chicago.

12:29 And the idea was to make movies,

12:31 but to be financed by the church and this was a really big

12:35 church and they had a lot of resources.

12:37 So it was a great opportunity for me to move my family

12:39 back to the Midwest, which is where I grew up.

12:42 And I did a short film for my church's Christmas Eve service.

12:47 And that short film got in the hands

12:49 of a producer named Jason Blum.

12:51 Jason Blum is one of the top producers in Hollywood.

12:53 He's produced nearly all of the most successful

12:56 horror films of the last 10 years.

12:58 Sinister and Sidious, Get Out, Up.

13:00 I mean, just paranormal activity.

13:02 I mean, the guy is a giant in the horror film community.

13:06 And so he specializes in low budget films

13:08 that make, you know, tens and millions of dollars.

13:11 And a really good filmmaker, a really good producer.

13:14 He long story short, saw my short film, loved it,

13:18 wanted to get into the faith space.

13:20 Because same reason he wanted to get into the horror space.

13:22 He saw an opportunity, he thinks there's a niche audience

13:24 there that can be utilized and make a lot of money.

13:29 Now, at the same time, WWE, the wrestling company,

13:32 they also make films.

13:34 They're also interested in the faith space, similar reason.

13:36 They're brilliant at niche marketing and understanding

13:39 an audience that is typically underserved.

13:41 And so they worked with Jason and they were gonna,

13:44 so they said, look, they reached out to me,

13:46 you know, they love the short film, what else you got?

13:49 I had this feature film that I was developing.

13:51 And they were all excited about it.

13:53 WWE was gonna finance it.

13:54 Jason and his company were gonna produce it.

13:56 So a horror film company, a wrestling company

13:58 in a church in Elgin, Illinois,

14:00 combined to make Hollywood production.

14:03 And it was a very explicit faith-based film.

14:05 It's called The Resurrection of Gavin Stone.

14:07 And it's a film that I'm still proud of.

14:10 And they were excited about it.

14:11 We made the movie, when it tested, they did test audiences.

14:15 It tested higher than any movie that either

14:17 of those companies had ever done.

14:18 It was really exciting.

14:19 They were thrilled about it.

14:21 They wanted to do other movies with me.

14:22 So we started developing future projects.

14:25 I was gonna do five projects over the next 10 years.

14:27 Everything was great.

14:28 Then the movie came out in 2017 and completely bombed.

14:31 I mean, it was lower than their lowest projections.

14:33 Within hours, they knew the numbers sucked.

14:36 They knew that it was over.

14:37 They let me know we won't be doing future projects with you.

14:40 I mean, they were nice about it.

14:41 But obviously they were like,

14:42 we're gonna go back to doing what we do best.

14:43 We don't get the faith market.

14:45 And I was left home alone with my wife,

14:47 crying and praying and confused and wondering.

14:51 Like, I thought God was in this.

14:53 I didn't, I'd done this for God at least I thought.

14:57 I think when you look back on it,

14:59 my motives were just as much about self

15:01 and much about affirmation as particularly Hollywood affirmation,

15:05 particularly the affirmation that comes from success

15:09 as I was motivated by anything else.

15:11 But I was just confused.

15:13 I thought it just seems so obvious that God had been behind this.

15:16 There were so many doors that had opened at the right times.

15:18 And then I go, I guess he wasn't.

15:20 I guess I was wrong.

15:21 Maybe this business isn't for me.

15:22 And I started to wrestle with what that meant

15:24 and that fact that I might never be able

15:26 to make another project again.

15:27 And God, remember how I mentioned earlier

15:31 that I was mowing my lawn and I felt this,

15:33 that God speaking to me very clearly

15:35 well, he did the same thing with my wife in that moment.

15:37 He pointed her to the feeding of the 5,000,

15:39 the story and the gospels, very famous story obviously.

15:42 And so he was like, read this story.

15:46 And so man than I, my wife dug into the story

15:50 and we're trying to understand

15:51 what God might have for us in that.

15:53 And the main thing that we gleaned from it was

15:55 that Jesus was actually responsible for the hunger

16:00 that led to the need for the miracle.

16:03 See what I'm saying?

16:04 So like people are hungry, they desperately need food.

16:07 Jesus knows that.

16:09 The disciples come up and tell him.

16:10 And he's like, oh yeah, I know. And they say,

16:12 well, we're gonna send these people home to get food.

16:14 He's like, no, no, we can't.

16:15 They're so weak and hungry.

16:16 If we send them home, they're gonna feint along the way.

16:19 And it was his fault.

16:20 He's the one who caused their hunger.

16:22 Till the only thing left to satisfy it was him

16:25 and it was a miracle.

16:26 So we thought, okay, that's the lesson.

16:29 We, God was in this.

16:30 He's leading us to this place of desperation.

16:34 And now the miracle is gonna come.

16:35 And we thought the miracle was gonna be

16:37 that the box office numbers were gonna turn around.

16:39 So that didn't happen.

16:40 And that wasn't the lesson.

16:41 Now, I think part of the lesson

16:42 that we were supposed to learn was that God,

16:44 just because something doesn't succeed

16:46 on a traditional level doesn't mean God wasn't in it.

16:48 But I was still trying to figure out

16:50 what is it that God has for us in this

16:52 and what's my future?

16:53 So that night, I was doing what I'm guessing.

16:55 You've done before, what I'm guessing a lot of your listeners

16:57 have done before is like a post-mortem, an analysis.

17:00 Something doesn't work.

17:02 You try to figure out why.

17:04 You mentioned to me before that you've had

17:06 guests from the military on.

17:08 You've got people in the audience who've done this.

17:09 It's a very common thing.

17:10 Obviously in the military, you do a pre-mortem

17:13 and a post-mortem.

17:14 I don't know if they use those terms, but you analyze

17:17 everything that can go wrong.

17:18 Then when something does go wrong, you figure out why.

17:20 Well, that's what I was doing, a 15-page memo.

17:22 Here's what I did wrong.

17:23 Here's my fault in it.

17:24 I wasn't trying to shirk responsibility.

17:27 But it's four o'clock in the morning.

17:28 I am writing out this long memo

17:31 and up pops on my computer screen

17:33 from someone I've never met, actually.

17:35 They were weird as Facebook friends.

17:37 We'd probably talk once a year on Facebook.

17:41 Pops up a message out of the blue.

17:42 Doesn't say anything else other than this.

17:44 Remember, your job is not to feed the 5,000.

17:47 Your job is only to provide the loaves and fish.

17:50 And I was looking around thinking maybe my computer

17:53 had been recording what I'd been saying that day.

17:55 I was genuinely confused, like, who did I tell?

17:58 How does he know, we didn't tell anyone this.

18:00 How does he know to say something like that?

18:02 So I respond to him and I go,

18:03 what are you doing up at four in the morning?

18:05 He says, well, I'm in Romania right now.

18:06 I'm on a different time zone.

18:09 And I'm visiting my brother and I was walking home

18:11 from the grocery store.

18:12 And I said, can I ask you why you sent that to me?

18:16 And he says, oh, that wasn't me.

18:18 God told me to tell you that.

18:20 And he had had a moment where he was walking home.

18:22 He had decided to look up the box office numbers for the movie

18:25 because he had loved the movie and was curious about it,

18:27 saw that it was a bomb, felt sorry for me,

18:30 and God just told him just explicitly and clearly,

18:33 tell Dallas it's not his job to feed the 5,000.

18:35 It's only provides a little fish.

18:37 And he was like, no, I'm not going to do that.

18:39 I barely know the guy.

18:40 I don't want to beat, you know, I don't want to,

18:41 it's very presumptuous to text him something like that

18:44 when he's down and God just kept hammering him.

18:47 So he decided to listen.

18:48 And so sent me that Facebook message.

18:50 Didn't expect a response because he knew what time it was

18:53 and the rest is history.

18:55 And that moment changed my life.

18:57 It may seem obvious to you that concept,

18:59 but to me, you know, I was in my 40s

19:01 before God had to really teach it to me

19:04 because I was someone who did feel responsible for results.

19:06 I was someone who did, I mean, there was a lot riding

19:08 on my shoulders and the fact that my Logan fish

19:11 didn't feed 5,000 people was very disappointing

19:14 and discouraging.

19:15 And in that lesson of you're responsible

19:18 to make the best five loaves and two fish that you can

19:21 and you hand them to God.

19:22 And if he deems them worthy of acceptance,

19:25 the transaction's over.

19:26 What he chooses to do with it or not do with it

19:28 is not up to you.

19:30 And that changed my life.

19:31 And in that moment, I became okay

19:33 if I never made another movie.

19:34 I just wanted to be in God's will.

19:35 I just wanted to provide loaves and fish

19:36 that were acceptable to him.

19:38 And when you get to that point,

19:40 when you truly get to that point,

19:41 it doesn't come easily.

19:42 Sometimes it takes a crisis or sometimes it just takes

19:45 discipline of you replacing your narcissistic

19:47 or materialistic or selfish thoughts with scripture

19:52 whenever they come up, you just make it a habit.

19:54 You know, you turn it into a habit.

19:55 Sometimes that's what it takes to change your brain,

19:58 to change your heart.

19:59 But in that moment, I was changed.

20:01 And when it happens, it's a superpower.

20:03 You truly become like impervious to criticism,

20:06 which you know, spoiler alert,

20:07 I mean, that happens every day with the chosen

20:10 and from thousands, hundreds of thousands of people

20:12 all over the world.

20:13 I don't care because all I care about

20:14 is giving loaves and fish to God.

20:16 So that's what allowed me to be okay with what happened next

20:21 which was things like, oh, remember that short film

20:25 I wrote a year and a half ago that I put on the shelf

20:27 because I was doing this big Hollywood movie?

20:29 And it was another short film for my church

20:31 about the birth of Christ from the perspective

20:33 of the shepherds.

20:34 I'll go ahead and do that, you know, for my church.

20:36 And it feels like a small loaf and a small fish,

20:38 big step down from Hollywood movie.

20:41 And I'm filming it on my friend's farm

20:42 in Illinois, 20 minutes from my house.

20:44 But while I'm doing it, I feel more in my wheelhouse

20:48 than any other project that I do.

20:49 This feels right.

20:50 This feels what I'm supposed to do.

20:52 That's when I had the idea for the chosen.

20:54 And so that concept of loaves and fish

20:58 allowed me to be open to some of the ridiculous ideas

21:01 that led to the success of the chosen,

21:02 like the crowd funding and all these things

21:04 that I thought were ridiculous and would never work.

21:07 And all the moments throughout the history

21:08 of the four or five years of this show

21:11 where I've been kind of at the end of myself

21:12 and my ideas weren't working

21:14 and then something came along that made it so much better.

21:16 All of those things are kind of a result,

21:19 not kind of they are a result of my accepting

21:22 of that concept of the loaves and fish.

21:24 - When I think it's interesting because, you know,

21:26 control the controllables, obviously,

21:28 that's good wisdom that you could take out of that situation.

21:30 But it's interesting that you also bring up

21:32 that story from scripture,

21:33 because that's gonna, I think, feature very prominently

21:36 in season three of the chosen.

21:37 But we obviously need to step back to the very beginning.

21:39 You talked about a little bit there in terms of

21:40 kind of how you got the idea,

21:42 how you got the ball rolling and you've gone crowd funding.

21:45 I think at this point, everyone kind of knows,

21:46 hey, this is the largest crowd funded thing ever produced

21:49 and those types of things.

21:50 I think anyone that knows anything

21:51 about the chosen knows that.

21:52 What I'm curious about is why did you choose

21:55 to do a bunch of episodic seasons as opposed to

21:58 what everyone else does, which is a movie or a mini series

22:02 or something that's made directly for television,

22:04 because that was the unique thing.

22:06 And then here in a second, I got another question,

22:07 which is gonna tell you kind of why I got so interested

22:10 in the chosen, but let's start there.

22:11 Why do it and set it up that way?

22:14 - Well, the answer is kind of in your question,

22:16 which is that's what everyone else had done

22:18 was movies and miniseries.

22:19 Now, I don't do things just to be different,

22:22 but anytime you do a piece of art,

22:25 there are several questions you have to answer for yourself.

22:27 One of them is, of course, does this reflect my soul,

22:30 my heart, is this something I want said?

22:32 Is this something God wants said?

22:33 I think that's important if you're a believer.

22:36 But then also, does this fill a need?

22:37 Is there a hole in the marketplace

22:39 in the pop culture conversation that needs to be filled?

22:42 Do I have something to say

22:43 that hasn't been explicitly said before?

22:45 And I believe that I did.

22:46 And I think that the multi-season element is,

22:49 I believe, if you were gonna put on the Mount Rushmore

22:52 of what are the four things

22:54 that have most been responsible

22:56 for the response to the show?

22:59 One of them is the nature of it,

23:01 the multi-season element, and here's why.

23:03 I happen to be binge watching "The Wire,"

23:06 the HBO show from the '90s, I believe.

23:08 I don't remember how old it is,

23:09 but it's a great show, obviously not exactly a family friendly.

23:14 Not something you'd watch in a church,

23:17 but it's a brilliant show and I would watch it every day

23:20 while I was on the treadmill and working out and whatnot.

23:23 And one of the things that I picked up on,

23:24 and I love binge watching shows,

23:26 there are lots of shows that have influenced the chosen.

23:28 But the thing that I love about television

23:30 is the time you can take to develop the characters

23:33 and the relationship that you as a viewer

23:35 develop at the characters,

23:36 where you, over the course of episodes and seasons,

23:39 really see the world through their eyes,

23:40 you connect with them, you want to know what happens to them,

23:43 and that ultimately becomes what you care most about

23:45 in a show, is the characters.

23:47 And I think that also applies to these universes

23:51 that you see even in movies,

23:52 like the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

23:54 20 plus movies to where now you've,

23:57 they've done a brilliant job of establishing storylines

24:00 and arcs that take place over the course of multiple

24:03 movies in multiple years.

24:04 And that allows you to not have to rush through anything,

24:08 any story points.

24:09 And so what's always happened to me in movies

24:11 and miniseries about Jesus,

24:12 is they go from miracle to miracle,

24:14 Bible verse to Bible verse.

24:16 There's never any connection,

24:17 rarely any connection with anyone that Jesus impacts.

24:21 The disciples are all the same.

24:22 I put someone once said in Jesus movies,

24:24 there's three disciples.

24:26 There's Peter, 'cause he's the famous one.

24:28 There's Judas, 'cause he's the betrayer.

24:29 And then there's the other 10 disciples, they're all one.

24:31 They all look and sound the same.

24:32 And I think that's true.

24:34 Well, in this with a TV show,

24:35 we have the time to develop things.

24:37 We have the time to develop backstories,

24:38 to develop character arcs.

24:40 We don't have to rush it.

24:41 And I think that is really a cheat code

24:44 for being able to really make this story emotionally impactful,

24:49 which is what I believe has been missing

24:51 from almost every other Jesus project I've ever seen.

24:53 I've never felt emotionally connected

24:55 other than perhaps the passion,

24:56 which one of the reasons that worked

24:58 was because it was two hours

25:00 that was devoted to a very, very specific moment.

25:03 It wasn't trying to cover that, the death of Christ

25:06 and his miracles and the resurrection,

25:09 all this stuff.

25:10 - And it still had flashbacks

25:11 that help kind of set things, but yeah, you're right.

25:13 And when you ask people,

25:15 I believe if you asked someone,

25:17 what are your three favorite moments

25:19 in the Passion of the Christ if you've seen that movie?

25:22 I would bet you that 90% of people would include

25:25 in those three the moment of Jesus and his mother

25:27 and he's building the table.

25:29 - Exactly.

25:29 - And he lifts her up and puts her on the table, exactly.

25:31 - Blashes water on her and stuff like that.

25:32 And I tell people the chosen, that's what the chosen is.

25:35 It's a bunch of those moments.

25:37 And I think that's been the secret sauce of the show.

25:40 And that's why I wanted to do a multi-season show

25:43 because not only has it never been done before,

25:45 not only does it have allowed me the freedom to do things

25:47 and say things that haven't been said before

25:49 about the life of Christ from the perspective of media.

25:53 I don't think I'm reinventing the wheel much

25:54 when it comes to what people say when they preach a sermon,

25:57 they try to give you a historical context and whatnot.

25:59 But anyway, I'm not going to keep rambling about that.

26:01 But I think that's been the key to allowing people

26:05 to have an emotional connection to these stories

26:08 as opposed to strictly a, oh, that's a Bible verse.

26:10 Now right, set to screen, that's interesting.

26:14 As opposed to I'm actually viscerally engaged with it.

26:16 - No, absolutely.

26:17 And I think it allows for reinvestment

26:19 because how many people do you hear

26:21 that will re-watch Breaking Bad?

26:23 They will re-watch Rome.

26:24 They will re-watch the officer.

26:26 They re-watch things.

26:27 They will reinvest in these characters

26:29 that they already know the ending to

26:31 because they're noticing and picking up

26:32 and nuances of these people's personalities.

26:34 And as soon as you said favorite moment from the passion,

26:37 I immediately went to that thing

26:38 because it showed the personhood of Jesus,

26:40 not, you know, Jesus, the minister or Jesus,

26:43 the rabbi or Jesus, any of those things.

26:45 So that's very, very interesting.

26:46 But what that opened you up to,

26:47 and you obviously know this, you mentioned it earlier,

26:49 it opens you up to some critiques from folks.

26:52 And so this series, The Chosen, obviously,

26:54 is very well regarded by critics

26:56 and by the audience in general.

26:58 But literally 30 minutes before you clicked on this,

27:00 I'm just scrolling through Twitter wasting time.

27:02 And I literally see this pop up by a guy

27:04 that I'm not even following.

27:05 His name is John Mason at Living God's Truth.

27:08 He literally posted this lesson an hour ago.

27:10 The creators of The Chosen and the Passion of the Christ

27:12 have this in common.

27:14 By their own words, they worship a different Christ

27:16 than the one revealed in scripture.

27:18 What's worse is the millions of Christians

27:20 who support their blatant inaccuracy

27:22 in handling the word of truth.

27:25 So obviously, you've made a lot of people very, very sensitive

27:28 because of the themes you tackle in the show.

27:30 It starts very, very dark.

27:31 Episode one, season one starts very, very dark,

27:34 which I appreciate.

27:35 I thought that was a great place to start.

27:37 Caught some people off guard.

27:38 But then you talk about things that are abiblical

27:41 because we don't have depictions of Jesus just hanging out.

27:45 We don't have depictions from scripture of Jesus

27:47 walking into a house and they're like,

27:48 "Oh yeah, that room's haunted."

27:49 And he's like, "Oh, I want that one."

27:50 Even though that's hilarious,

27:51 it's a hilarious moment from the show.

27:53 And I've known specifically, a lot of people

27:55 were very uncomfortable with seeing Jesus depicted

27:58 as preparing the Sermon on the Mount with Matthew.

28:01 They just assumed that he stood there at the Mount

28:04 with all the people and just put it out there

28:07 as if he wasn't actually a human being

28:10 and part of the Godhead.

28:11 So talk to me a little bit about that

28:13 because obviously if you were to read all those comments

28:16 and take them into your matrices of decision-making,

28:19 you would have never even started the show.

28:21 But talk to me about some of the critiques people have about,

28:23 "Hey, this isn't even biblical, you shouldn't watch it."

28:25 - Yeah, yeah.

28:26 So a lot to unpack there, but it's very important.

28:28 So first of all, that Twitter comment,

28:30 I hadn't seen that, of course,

28:32 but that Twitter comment has in common with this,

28:36 with 99% of the most extreme critiques of the show.

28:41 It says something false.

28:43 So when that Twitter comment says,

28:45 "The creator of the chosen outright said he worships

28:48 "the different Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible."

28:50 Like bald-faced lie, he's simply lying.

28:53 Like I'm a Oregon evangelical believer passionate

28:57 about God's word.

28:58 Now, what he's referring to is that several years ago,

29:02 I made the comment that I know some people of the LDS faith.

29:06 And I said, "Those people of the LDS faith

29:08 "love the same Jesus that I do."

29:10 And that comment broke the minds and hearts

29:14 of several people who have now extrapolated that

29:18 and have come to the belief that either, oh,

29:19 Dallas is a Mormon, or Dallas says

29:22 that Mormons believe the same Jesus.

29:23 I didn't make those kinds of generalizations

29:26 like they're doing.

29:27 I was referring to some specific people.

29:29 When I talk, I have nuance, which is a crazy concept

29:32 in today's social media world,

29:34 but words are extremely important,

29:35 they're extremely specific.

29:37 And but however, these people who are, you know,

29:40 the doctrine or the discernment police,

29:43 which I do believe discernment is vitally important.

29:45 I don't believe you should watch the show

29:46 if you feel like there's something wrong with it.

29:49 I do believe that the show is open to criticism

29:51 and it should be because we're talking about the,

29:53 you know, the savior of the world.

29:56 But when you critique, you should be accurate.

29:58 And 99%, I'm not exaggerating here,

30:00 of when I see the YouTube videos of like,

30:02 Dallas Jenkins is a heretic,

30:04 or Dallas Jenkins said, quote, blank.

30:06 Oh, I can't tell you how many times

30:09 they're just blatantly false.

30:11 Like they'll put quote marks around a phrase

30:13 that I didn't actually say.

30:14 By definition, that's false.

30:16 So that makes it easy to ignore it,

30:17 makes it easier to laugh at it, which I do most of it.

30:22 And occasionally people that I respect

30:23 will might have a critique and I take that,

30:25 you know, I take that seriously

30:26 and we consider all of that.

30:27 So there's that.

30:29 The other piece of it is you're right.

30:32 If I cared about what people said, positive or negative,

30:37 then I couldn't make the show.

30:38 I believe the show would be crippled

30:40 if when I sat down at the computer to write an episode,

30:42 I was thinking of making sure that I pleased more people

30:45 or avoided the criticisms of other people.

30:49 I don't think about it and I can't.

30:52 I am trying to please God.

30:55 That is my number one goal and my wife.

30:57 And of course we have a consultants

31:01 and conservative Bible believers, scholars

31:05 who review our scripts and when they have a critique,

31:08 if it's something that I believe is legitimate

31:10 and we talk back and forth about it,

31:12 I of course will make a change.

31:14 And that said, I don't make the show

31:18 to avoid criticism or to gain praise.

31:21 So that's just not a factor with me.

31:23 And so when I get critiques like that,

31:25 I don't feel the need to defend them

31:27 because it doesn't bother me.

31:28 Now occasionally, when some people are saying things

31:32 that are inaccurate and impacting our fans

31:34 and making our fans question and ask me,

31:36 Dallas, this person said this, they claim to this.

31:39 What do you say?

31:39 I will occasionally respond

31:41 because I do believe that within my circle of influence,

31:44 within my universe, I want to have that conversation

31:48 on our terms.

31:49 But I'm not going to go to their world and their universe

31:52 and get online, try to defend myself or try to explain

31:55 because there's no win in that.

31:56 They control the narrative.

31:58 They're going to just continue to take things out of context

32:00 and expand on them.

32:01 And so I'm just not going to play that game.

32:02 And I don't respect or have time for people

32:05 who are inaccurate in their critiques.

32:08 I have time for critiques.

32:09 I just don't have time for inaccurate unfair critiques.

32:11 So furthermore, to your point about the sermon,

32:14 this is a great example of the kind of things that happened.

32:17 So did Jesus stand on the sermon on the Mount?

32:21 And did the words just come to him

32:23 and he just spilled out those four chapters

32:25 of the Book of Matthew?

32:27 Maybe I'm wrong, three or four chapters

32:29 of the Book of Matthew and they just came out.

32:30 It's possible.

32:31 - Yeah.

32:32 - I mean, I believe that those teachings

32:33 are probably a collection of times

32:36 that he said them multiple times.

32:37 I don't believe that he just sat down once,

32:39 delivered the sermon on the Mount so-called.

32:42 And then that was the only time

32:42 that was ever delivered.

32:43 Matthew happened to write it all down in the moment

32:46 and captured it perfectly and then put it into his gospel.

32:50 I believe that Jesus probably said those things

32:52 dozens and dozens of times scholars believe that,

32:56 most scholars believe that too,

32:57 that it was probably a collection of some of these teachings.

33:01 Or it could have been, he sat down on a Mount,

33:03 people gathered and he just spilled it all out.

33:06 That's certainly possible.

33:07 Is it also possible that when he was alone with the Lord

33:11 and when he was in the days leading up to the delivery

33:14 of this, that he was working out the best way

33:16 to deliver some of these things

33:17 because he speaks to audiences of all kinds.

33:20 And that when he, because he is a personal God,

33:22 because he is a personal savior,

33:24 because throughout the gospels you see him call people

33:27 to follow him or heal people unique in their circumstance.

33:31 And that when he speaks to the masses,

33:32 he wants to deliver things in the most palatable way possible

33:37 which is why he used parable so often,

33:39 which is why he dumbed things down, quote unquote.

33:42 Again, don't roll the react to that term, I'm just saying.

33:44 He made things simple and easy to understand

33:46 concepts that were very difficult.

33:48 Also, there were times when he said,

33:50 some people will not understand this and that's okay.

33:53 Let he who has ears to hear, let him hear.

33:56 So do I believe that preparing for a sermon

33:59 is a violation of the character of Jesus in the gospels?

34:01 Absolutely not.

34:02 Is it possible that that never happened?

34:04 Absolutely.

34:05 So if someone says,

34:06 I don't believe Jesus would have prepared a sermon.

34:08 Fine, I'm not gonna argue with you.

34:10 There's no indication in scripture.

34:11 There's no scripture verse that says,

34:13 and then Jesus went off

34:14 and worked through the words of his sermon.

34:16 Now it does talk about Jesus praying desperately to God.

34:19 He prayed for favor, he prayed for permission.

34:21 He said multiple times that all his power comes from the Lord.

34:25 So I believe that he oftentimes was asking God,

34:29 the father for, for power, for insight, for wisdom,

34:34 because as Philippians says,

34:36 he did not count equality with God as something to be grasped.

34:41 So that's a pretty radical verse to talk about,

34:43 to say that Jesus, when he came to earth,

34:45 actually gave up some of what he had

34:47 when he was on the throne in heaven.

34:50 What exactly that looks like?

34:51 I don't think any of us know for sure.

34:52 But the reason that I'm taking so much time

34:54 on that one particular incident,

34:55 'cause it's probably the thing

34:56 that I've been most critiqued for,

34:57 is sermon prep, the 10 seconds of sermon prep,

35:00 is because I think that's a really good example of,

35:02 we don't know exactly what happened.

35:04 And when you assert in a YouTube comment

35:07 that you have figured out things

35:09 that have been debated by scholars for hundreds

35:11 and hundreds of years,

35:12 and you're gonna solve the issue with a YouTube comment,

35:14 I just don't have that level of arrogance.

35:17 I'm willing to say, I don't know for sure,

35:19 but I think it's plausible,

35:21 and I think it's actually really beautiful.

35:23 And so we're gonna do that.

35:25 If it wasn't plausible, in my mind, I wouldn't have done it.

35:27 But anyway, that's a very long answer to your question,

35:29 but these are extraordinarily important topics.

35:30 And I do believe that it's important to make sure

35:33 that people know that even when we disagree,

35:35 I take this very seriously.

35:37 I come from it from a very thoughtful, prayerful perspective

35:40 and a perspective that believes

35:41 in the unabashed truth of God's word.

35:46 And I am a conservative evangelical.

35:48 I stand proudly on that.

35:50 The fact that there happened to be LDS folks, Catholic folks,

35:53 non-believers in the cast and crew

35:56 does not change the content of the show.

35:59 - Well, no, I appreciate you going into all that detail

36:01 and even specifically,

36:02 you're not making a historical documentary.

36:04 Like, you are making an episodic, you know--

36:07 - It's fiction.

36:08 I mean, someone, a pastor once called it fan fiction,

36:10 and I thought, you know what?

36:10 That's actually not an inaccurate statement.

36:12 We're not in place for the Bible.

36:13 We haven't added to the Bible because we're not the Bible.

36:15 The Bible has not changed since the show came out.

36:18 And millions and millions of people of outright said publicly,

36:21 I'm reading the Bible more than ever because of the show.

36:24 That's great.

36:24 No one has said, because of the show,

36:26 I no longer have to read the Bible

36:27 'cause this is my new truth.

36:29 No one has said that.

36:30 And anyone who keeps using that as an excuse

36:32 for why the show is wrong is seeing things

36:35 with their own filter and not through the filter

36:36 of what is actually happening.

36:38 - Well, and this is good advice.

36:39 And I'm sure you've cosigned this, you know,

36:40 seeing how you couched everything,

36:42 but this is good advice for everybody else as well.

36:44 Don't take criticism from people

36:45 you're not willing to take advice from.

36:46 And so if you're not gonna change what you're gonna do

36:48 in this show--

36:49 - That's a great word.

36:50 - Critique and advice.

36:52 Like, then don't take the critiques to heart

36:53 because I'm the guy that I don't care

36:55 how many five star reviews I get in a row.

36:57 It's that one star review

36:59 and not knowing who the person is,

37:01 that's the one that's sticky.

37:02 I can still right now go through the roll of decks

37:04 in my one star reviews.

37:05 And I know what they said.

37:06 I know what their critiques are.

37:07 And then I let those things bother me.

37:09 But I'm not gonna really get onto that

37:10 because we need to move on to finding Jesus.

37:13 And I don't mean that like in the accepting

37:15 of salvation side.

37:17 I mean, Jonathan Rumi.

37:18 So that is the actor that has obviously blown up

37:20 since taking on this role.

37:22 So I'll tell you this.

37:24 Season one of the chosen had already happened.

37:25 I think season two was about to come out or I'd come out.

37:28 And I'd heard of the chosen.

37:29 I'd heard people talk about it.

37:30 I'd seen some chatter online,

37:31 but I had not seen any pictures.

37:33 I'd not seen any clips.

37:34 I certainly had not watched an episode.

37:36 And I was like, ah, it's just another Jesus thing.

37:37 It's probably gonna be corny,

37:38 similar to some of the things that you said earlier.

37:41 But the first clip I saw was of Jonathan Rumi

37:44 and of the disciples.

37:45 And I'm like, wait a minute.

37:47 Those look like Middle Eastern Jews.

37:49 I was like, I thought the rule was

37:51 that if you're gonna depict Jesus on film,

37:54 he had to look like a Danish white guy

37:56 with soft features and dirty blonde hair

37:58 and blue eyes and those types of things.

38:00 And maybe just maybe the disciples

38:02 could look kind of Jewish, right?

38:04 But aside from that,

38:04 that's not how we're supposed to do things.

38:06 So that piqued my interest.

38:08 So take me through that whole process of casting people

38:11 that probably looked like what these people

38:14 potentially would have looked like during that time.

38:16 And then how in the world do you go about picking?

38:18 Yeah, that's the guy that's gonna play

38:20 the most important and most, you know,

38:22 influential person in the history of humanity.

38:25 - Yeah.

38:26 Well, the Jonathan thing happened actually,

38:28 seven or eight years ago, I was doing short films

38:30 from my church at the time and I would each good Friday,

38:35 I would do a short film or vignette

38:37 that kind of captured some element of the crucifixion.

38:41 And the first thing I did was a short film

38:43 about the two thieves on the cross.

38:45 And similar to the chosen,

38:46 Jesus actually wasn't the main character.

38:48 It was actually seeing the whole crucifixion

38:51 through their eyes and their backstories.

38:53 And I was casting the two thieves.

38:55 And Jonathan was one of the people

38:56 who auditioned for one of the thieves.

38:58 He was great, but there were two other guys

39:00 who were fantastic, perfect for the roles

39:02 and the guys who auditioned for Jesus,

39:04 who actually had quite a small role in the short film,

39:06 were just awful and I needed to find a Jesus.

39:09 And so I thought, well, this Jonathan guy,

39:12 he wasn't quite what I was looking for with the thieves,

39:14 but he's a good actor, let's have him audition.

39:16 And 10 seconds into audition, I was like, oh my gosh.

39:20 I mean, I had the response that everyone else has had,

39:23 which is this feels right.

39:27 Whatever he's doing,

39:29 he feels like he's inhabiting the traits of this person.

39:33 And so I cast him as Jesus.

39:34 I remember when I was filming that short film

39:36 in a rock quarry in Chicago,

39:39 and he was up on the cross and we were doing the scene,

39:42 I'm like, this is, in my opinion,

39:44 like the best portrayal of Jesus I've ever seen.

39:47 Because it combines what I think

39:51 other than maybe one or two examples I can think of.

39:54 Few people have ever captured about Jesus

39:55 in the dozens of portrayals,

39:57 which is both the kindness and gentleness

39:59 and the masculinity.

40:01 This is a Jesus who's a lion,

40:04 but he's a tame lion, as it says in Chronicles of Narnia.

40:08 And so Jonathan captures both of those things.

40:11 And so anyway, we started doing more of those,

40:13 more vignettes each year, short films,

40:15 kind of give us time to kind of work out

40:17 some of the things that you see in the chosen,

40:18 the jokes, the humanity, but also the deity,

40:22 that kind of unique and odd, very difficult to portray,

40:26 duality of Christ that I so passionately believe in,

40:29 and Jonathan believes in.

40:31 So that decision was made easily.

40:33 That was the first decision made

40:34 when we were casting the show.

40:36 The other disciples, the rule was, look,

40:39 I don't care about celebrity,

40:40 I'm not trying to get star power here,

40:41 we don't have the money for that anyway.

40:43 But here's, I am now operating on God's economy.

40:46 I care about who's right for the role,

40:47 I'm providing my loaves and fish.

40:49 If he wants to multiply it and feed the 5,000,

40:51 it's up to him.

40:52 So to be right for the role,

40:54 you have to not only be a great actor,

40:56 you have to not only fit the part,

40:58 but fitting the part includes looking like the part.

41:00 And first century Israel did not look like Europe.

41:05 And so we just, part of my demand,

41:08 it wasn't any kind of political statement

41:10 or any kind of quota I was trying to fill,

41:12 it was a, I'm trying to be authentic.

41:13 And I think authenticity is probably again,

41:15 on that Mount Rushmore of things

41:17 that people will say about the show,

41:20 that draws them to it as it feels real, it feels human.

41:22 And part of that is because I believe it's authentic.

41:25 It feels dirty, it feels rough.

41:27 The opening of episode one season,

41:28 well, like you said, it starts right in there

41:30 with a demon possession and blood

41:32 and the Roman occupation and the oppression and the pain

41:37 and all these, who these people were before they met Jesus.

41:39 You see Simon as a rough gambler and, you know,

41:42 I mean, all these things, you know,

41:43 we don't know for sure if they were true,

41:44 but we know that they were historically plausible.

41:48 And so that happens, that's all the way down to the casting.

41:51 I wanted people who look like 1st century Israel.

41:54 Now we're not gonna get it every time.

41:56 And, you know, I'm sure if you showed me a picture

41:58 of 1st century Israel, they might have,

42:00 it might have looked a little bit different,

42:01 but I mean, this is plausible.

42:03 These are, I'll live to dark skinned,

42:05 Capernaum was a melting pot.

42:06 So you had people from all different continents

42:08 who had migrated there because it was a trade route.

42:11 So we believe it's, it's, if not factual,

42:15 we believe it's certainly plausible.

42:17 - And I think that that was again,

42:19 going back to one thing we talked about

42:20 is when you're inauthentic, especially now,

42:22 I feel like modern audiences,

42:24 because we've been really marinated in docu-series

42:26 and documentaries for a while,

42:28 to where it's like, when things don't feel kind of like that,

42:30 like anymore, when I go back and watch Old Westerns,

42:33 I can't do it.

42:33 I have to watch New Westerns that are more gritty,

42:36 that are more realistic for whatever reason

42:37 that agrees with my palette more.

42:39 But, Dallas, you brought this up a little bit a second ago.

42:41 And I kind of want to talk about any conflicts

42:44 that may be happen on set,

42:45 because you're a conservative evangelical,

42:47 but Jonathan's a Catholic.

42:49 And, you know, when you cast the rest of the show,

42:51 you basically alluded to it.

42:53 Not everybody that acts on camera

42:55 or works behind the camera,

42:57 believes that Jesus Christ was resurrected on the third day.

43:00 Right?

43:01 And, you know, for a lot of people,

43:02 you know, they may have some consternation

43:04 if the guy that plays Matthew,

43:05 I'm just throwing out things like so,

43:06 'cause a lot of people talked about his character

43:08 and kind of how he's portrayed

43:09 as almost having a little bit of a spectrum-y side to him,

43:12 which I thought was very, very interesting.

43:13 But they're like, what if he's not a Christian?

43:15 What if he's not a believer?

43:16 That would ruin the show for them,

43:18 'cause they're like, this guy doesn't take this seriously.

43:20 But we always have to pull ourselves out.

43:22 Every actor is doing make-pretend.

43:24 Like, you know, Chris Hemsworth,

43:26 he doesn't actually throw a magical hammer at people,

43:29 you know, during conflicts, you know what I mean?

43:30 Like, he's play-acting, like he's doing make-pretend.

43:33 And so, but I kind of want to know, like,

43:35 how does that work?

43:36 Like, are there, like, theological debates?

43:39 Are people sharing the gospel of Christ,

43:41 like, on the set where Christ is being depicted?

43:43 I'm just curious about that, you know.

43:45 - Well, there haven't been debates on the set much at all.

43:48 Obviously, the cast and crew run the spectrum

43:51 of belief to non-belief to everything in between

43:54 and all the different.

43:55 I mean, I can't think of a faith tradition

43:56 that isn't reflected by somebody in the cast,

43:59 Christian or not.

44:03 And then there's plenty of atheists and all that.

44:05 There's not many debates because people love the show,

44:07 people love the story.

44:08 I mean, the cast and crew of Game of Thrones,

44:11 I doubt had debates over whether or not

44:13 the spiritual elements of that show were accurate,

44:16 whether John Snow actually raised from the dead,

44:19 whether there was actually, you know,

44:21 when people were doing the cast and crew have lost,

44:23 I'm sure weren't debating over whether or not

44:25 there was a smoke monster or whether or not

44:27 you can actually go back in time.

44:29 So you don't have to believe that these things actually

44:32 happened and that Jesus was the savior

44:34 to be able to portray the people who lived

44:37 during that time who did believe that.

44:40 And again, because the scripts, because they love the scripts,

44:43 because, you know, their words not mine,

44:45 the scripts are so good they're thrilled and happy

44:48 to be able to portray these people

44:50 regardless of their belief system.

44:51 Now, that's not to say that we don't actually have

44:54 extraordinarily deep and meaningful conversations

44:56 about the gospels, that happens as a result

44:58 of the fact that they're playing these characters,

44:59 they have questions about the motivation,

45:01 they have questions about the story,

45:02 some of them didn't know these stories,

45:03 some of them looked deeper into it,

45:04 they're asking me questions.

45:05 I mean, it is a fertile, it is a breeding ground

45:08 for conversations about the gospel.

45:11 And several actors have come to a faith to believe in Jesus

45:15 as the son of God because of the show.

45:17 Others have not, others have, but have been more intrigued

45:20 by it, others have had their views changed

45:22 about Christians to some extent,

45:24 came into it with political or spiritual assumptions

45:29 about who Christians were.

45:33 So that's happened too.

45:34 And I'm sure there's also been some cases where they're like,

45:36 yeah, I don't like this, I don't like, you know,

45:38 I mean, most of it's been extraordinarily positive.

45:42 So we've had multiple stories on the set,

45:45 it happens almost every time that there's a scene

45:47 where someone is either quoting scripture

45:49 or being called by Jesus to follow.

45:51 Something always emotional, like abnormally,

45:53 that's not in the script happens,

45:55 almost without exception.

45:56 And that's pretty cool and probably says something

45:58 about the truth of God's word and whatnot.

46:00 But this is not, we're not a church.

46:03 There's not a religious litmus test to be involved

46:05 in our show.

46:07 If you can do a great job on this show

46:09 and if you can be part of getting the show

46:11 to the world and our marketing team,

46:13 if you're gonna make the show better

46:15 or make our marketing efforts better, you are welcome.

46:18 Your faith system won't impact the content of the show.

46:22 The content of the show won't change based on anything

46:25 other than my and my wife and my, you know,

46:28 biblical consultants, perspectives.

46:31 But yeah, it's been a great experience.

46:35 I love the fact that we have people

46:36 from all backgrounds on the show

46:38 because it's an opportunity for them

46:40 to maybe see something they haven't seen before.

46:42 - All right, so let's talk about season three.

46:44 So obviously the first two seasons

46:46 have done incredibly well.

46:47 You've teed up the Sermon on the Mount.

46:49 The teaser trailer just came out here recently.

46:51 But guys, if you're listening to this on time,

46:53 season three launches this Friday, November the 18th,

46:56 but it doesn't just launch on the app.

46:58 It actually launches in theaters.

46:59 And my understanding is that the rest of the episodes

47:01 will be released starting in December of this year.

47:04 So I guess take us through, why do the theater thing

47:07 for the first two episodes of season three

47:09 as I understand it?

47:10 And then I guess what can fans expect with season three?

47:12 - Yeah, so the first two episodes

47:14 launch in theaters this Friday.

47:17 And then they, not just the rest of the episodes,

47:20 these first two episodes will also release to streaming.

47:22 It's not like I had some people get all upset like,

47:25 well, if I can't go to theater,

47:26 I guess I'm never gonna see this.

47:27 I'm like, come on. - Oh, okay.

47:29 - No, nothing has ever been released to theaters

47:31 in the never been also released elsewhere.

47:34 So obviously, as always, these episodes

47:36 will be available free and easy, like they always are.

47:39 The show will always be free and easy.

47:41 There will be other places where you can watch it

47:42 where you have to pay.

47:43 But in the chosen app, when you go, you know,

47:46 look up the chosen in your app store,

47:47 look up the chosen on your streaming platform or device,

47:52 you will be able to watch it free and easy.

47:54 Now, but not just yet, starting as the first two episodes

47:58 are coming down in theaters.

47:59 We wanted to do that for several reasons.

48:00 We wanted to do that because people want to see it

48:02 on the big screen, people want to gather together.

48:04 It's a good income opportunity for us.

48:06 It's gonna be very expensive.

48:07 I hope we make money on it.

48:09 You know, it's hard to make money in theaters.

48:10 Most movies never ever make money in the theaters.

48:12 That's usually, that's just kind of the launch point

48:14 and then they make their money elsewhere.

48:16 But it'd be great if we could, you know,

48:19 make money in the theaters.

48:20 We could certainly use it.

48:21 Less than 5% of the people who watch the chosen

48:24 ever pay for it, they have the opportunity to choose

48:27 if they want to what we call pay it forward, or eventually

48:31 there's an opportunity to donate.

48:33 That's gonna be coming here soon.

48:35 But it's an optional payment if you want to do that.

48:38 But because less than 5% of people who watch it pay for it,

48:41 we obviously need income from other sources as well,

48:43 whether it's our merchandise or, you know, TV deals

48:47 or streaming deals or theatrical release like this.

48:50 And so that's why we did it.

48:52 It's never been done before with a TV show,

48:54 but we think it's a cool opportunity.

48:55 In fact, I think other shows are starting

48:56 to maybe consider that for like one night only.

48:58 Last year when we released our Christmas special

49:00 in theaters, which was a one new 30 minute episode,

49:04 along with a bunch of music videos,

49:05 and it did $14 million of the box office

49:07 without us even really trying, we were like, wow, okay,

49:10 this isn't a cool opportunity.

49:11 And the fans are gonna be excited about as well.

49:14 And they get a chance to see it early

49:16 before it comes to streaming.

49:17 And if they want to pay for that, that's great.

49:18 If not, if you can't get to the theater,

49:20 it's gonna be easy for you to watch in December.

49:23 Like we always do, and each episode will come out

49:25 one week at a time.

49:26 And then we're hoping to release episodes seven and eight

49:29 together in a limited theatrical run as well,

49:32 because those are gonna be huge.

49:35 The scope of those episodes is huge

49:37 and they belong in the big screen.

49:38 - Okay, well, I'll ask you off there.

49:40 I'll get all the 4-1-1 on everything.

49:42 I don't want to share it with my audience, guys.

49:43 You're not that special.

49:44 No, but I do want to ask this because you mentioned

49:46 something earlier that I keyed it on,

49:47 and obviously my audience knew I would.

49:50 The masculinity of Jesus, obviously we're very concerned

49:52 about here because we've seen Jesus depicted

49:54 as Jesus meek and mild and meek in the modern parlance

49:57 of like, oh, he's constantly navel gazing

49:59 and just carrying around sheep and telling women

50:01 how good they look in their tunics,

50:02 but not ever doing anything masculine at all.

50:04 Like it wasn't like he was a carpenter or anything.

50:07 But are we going to see a depiction of Jesus clearing

50:11 the temple in any of the chosen series?

50:13 And before you answer that,

50:14 'cause the answer needs to be yes,

50:15 I'm just gonna go ahead and give you your spoiler.

50:18 Every time I've seen that depicted in film,

50:21 it's either depicted by this wispy haired blonde man

50:24 or it's like a series I think that was on history channel

50:26 or Nat Geo years ago, where it was almost like,

50:29 Jesus was like, oh, I don't want to be doing this

50:31 and oh, you're making me sad.

50:33 And it was just the worst.

50:35 I was so excited for that scene and I was so let down.

50:39 So Dallas, don't let me down.

50:41 Are we going to see the Lion of Judah in your series?

50:44 - Well, I don't give spoilers, but I'll say this.

50:48 I would say it would be quite a big miss

50:52 and quite an obvious betrayal

50:57 of a very important sequence of events

51:00 that leads to his crucifixion if we didn't portray that.

51:03 And if we do portray it, we will portray it

51:06 in the way that the chosen portrays Bible stories,

51:08 which is authentic and accurate

51:10 with the appropriate backstory, the appropriate setup

51:13 in a way that would actually happen.

51:15 And on no level do I believe that if Jesus

51:17 was turning over the tables in the temple

51:19 and actually fashioned a whip and was using a whip

51:23 to raise some hell no pun intended in that sequence.

51:28 Anything other than that would be pretty offensive in my book.

51:34 So yeah, I would say it's pretty safe to say

51:38 that if we do that scene, we're going to do it right.

51:40 And I think you'll see, I think you've seen

51:42 in the first two seasons and I think you're going to see

51:43 in season three, I think you see it in the trailer

51:44 for season three, Jesus being the Lion of Judah.

51:47 One of the things my wife loves and it's been this moment

51:49 in the trailer has gotten a lot of attention

51:51 when the Pharisee says to him,

51:53 "Jesus, if you do not renounce your words,

51:55 "we will have no choice but to follow the book of Moses."

51:58 And Jesus leans forward and like a total badass, I think,

52:01 says, "I am the law of Moses."

52:03 It's kind of my breaking bad moment.

52:05 I am the one who knocks is that a quote from scripture?

52:10 No, it's not, but is it plausible theologically?

52:14 I do believe it is and I do believe it represents

52:17 Jesus as King, that's what my wife was saying.

52:18 She's like, he is the law, he is the word,

52:21 he is the Creator, he is it, nothing, none of this stuff.

52:24 When someone tries to quote the law of Moses to him,

52:26 he's like, bro, I wrote the law of Moses, this is my thing.

52:30 I am the law of Moses, that's him being a King,

52:33 that's him being who I believe that he was.

52:36 And I think you'll see that in season three

52:38 and for sure see that leading up to the crucifixion.

52:42 - So Dallas, I will take that as a yes.

52:44 And if you still film in Texas,

52:46 it's got to tell you I'm in Oklahoma.

52:48 So if you need a ginger money changer

52:50 or you know, pigeon salesman or something like that,

52:52 I can shave this off.

52:53 I don't know how many ginger's there were

52:55 in the Middle East during that time,

52:56 but is it plausible?

52:58 One of them looked like me with green ice, maybe, right?

53:00 - Yeah, it's not plausible there was a Jewish ginger,

53:03 but it's plausible that there was a ginger

53:05 from another continent that might've come in

53:07 to try to sell things.

53:08 So, you know, you never know.

53:09 - Right, so if you have a scene

53:10 and you need some Irish looking angry person

53:13 that needs to be part of that, the dude, I'm in.

53:15 I can drive to Texas, that's not a problem.

53:17 But I do want to talk about the future of the chosen.

53:20 So obviously if you go to the website, guys,

53:22 it's in the show notes and guys in the show notes,

53:23 that's how you can get it.

53:24 If you don't want to just go to the app store,

53:26 you can go through the website.

53:27 We're going to make it as easy for you as possible

53:29 to see the first two seasons and then on into season three.

53:32 But it says that you're going to wrap this thing up

53:34 in seven seasons.

53:36 So some people take that to mean

53:37 it's going to take you seven years to get to the passion,

53:40 right?

53:40 It's going to take you seven years to get to whatever.

53:42 Maybe you'll kill Jesus sometime in season five or six.

53:45 And then the season seven is going to be the ax of the apostles.

53:48 And then maybe that'll splinter off

53:49 into a bunch of other different series.

53:51 But part of me is like, okay, I want to know the answer to that

53:53 and you're not going to tell me,

53:54 but I'm going to ask you anyway to just give me all the answers.

53:57 But also how long can you keep this cast together?

54:00 I always worry about that and wonder about that.

54:02 You mentioned Breaking Bad Mr. Ehrman Trout.

54:05 That's an older gentleman.

54:06 And so when he was cast in the same role in Better Call Saul,

54:09 I was like, ooh, what if he doesn't wake up tomorrow?

54:12 Like you can't replace him, you know what I mean?

54:14 So talk to me a little bit about how you're going to navigate

54:17 going through seven seasons and, you know,

54:19 what does life look like after that?

54:20 Yeah, well, we haven't hid from the fact that we do believe,

54:23 we do intend for the crucifixion to be season six

54:26 and season seven will be the aftermath.

54:28 We won't be getting into the ax of the apostles in this show.

54:31 We want to take our time with what we've got within the gospels.

54:34 So there's that.

54:35 So season six is, we're going to spend a lot of time

54:39 on the crucifixion and then season seven is the spoiler alert.

54:43 He does come back to life and we'll covering that

54:46 and the aftermath of that.

54:48 As to the cast, I mean, we have contracts

54:50 with the cast members through all seven seasons.

54:53 And so we have no intention of losing them.

54:57 Obviously, sometimes things happen.

54:58 In season one, before we had these longer-term contracts,

55:01 one of the actors ended up taking another gig.

55:04 We didn't have them locked up because we didn't know

55:06 what our schedule was going to be, which is fair.

55:08 We're thrilled for him.

55:10 And then the actor that replaced him ended up having

55:13 a family medical emergency couldn't come back for season two.

55:17 So the character of Big James has had three actors,

55:19 the 31 that's sticking with us.

55:22 There's another role that unfortunately is going to have

55:24 to be replaced here before season four.

55:27 But for the most part, I mean, the plan is to hold on

55:29 to all of them.

55:30 That's the intention, of course.

55:32 And we've only got, I mean, it's not seven more years.

55:34 It's a total of seven seasons.

55:36 So season four, we intend to begin shooting

55:38 in spring of 2023.

55:40 I mean, season five is the year after that.

55:42 So there's four more seasons.

55:44 And yeah, I mean, we want to hold on to them.

55:48 And we want to make sure that the show is exciting enough

55:51 and artistically fulfilling enough that they want to be here,

55:53 even if regardless of their contract.

55:55 So that's the plan.

55:57 And we're excited about that.

55:59 And I don't think anyone is going to be passing away

56:02 of old age anytime soon.

56:03 All right, sounds good.

56:04 Well, we're going to wrap up here with this segment.

56:06 So there's a segment I like to do towards the end

56:07 of some of my interviews is called,

56:09 what would you say to someone that said?

56:11 And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to say,

56:13 what would you say to someone that said?

56:14 And I'm going to fill in the blank.

56:15 But here's the thing, this is lightning round.

56:17 So you get 30 seconds maximum to respond to whatever it is.

56:21 I say it could be a little thing.

56:22 Could be a big thing.

56:23 It could be a compliment.

56:24 It could be a critique.

56:25 But I'm going to throw several of these out there at you.

56:27 You get 30 seconds each.

56:28 So you up for it?

56:29 - I'm up for it.

56:30 I won't take the full 30 seconds.

56:32 - Okay. All right.

56:33 Here's the first one.

56:33 What would you say to someone that said,

56:35 "I like white Jesus better."

56:39 - Don't watch our show.

56:41 - I thought that one would be pretty funny.

56:42 But yeah, there are people that would say

56:43 stupid crap like that.

56:44 All right, let's go to the next one.

56:45 What would you say to someone that said,

56:46 "It is sacrilegious to create artistic depictions

56:49 of Jesus who is part of the Godhead."

56:52 - I would say they're probably referring to what some people

56:55 talk about the second commandment,

56:56 which talks about do not create a false idol,

56:58 do not create any depiction of another idol.

57:02 There's also people talking about that you've never seen

57:03 the face of God, don't show the face of God.

57:06 Two things I would say.

57:07 Number one, we're not creating an idol.

57:08 No one is worshiping the show.

57:10 No one is worshiping Jonathan Rumi.

57:12 We are not claiming that Jonathan's portrayal of Jesus

57:14 is Jesus.

57:15 And we are certainly not portraying a God to be worshiped.

57:18 So there's that.

57:20 The other thing I would say is that

57:22 people who say you should never see the face of God

57:27 and should never like no, there's a,

57:29 I remember there was one critic who was saying,

57:31 there's a reason God gave us words

57:33 and didn't show, we don't know what Jesus looked like

57:35 because he wanted us to focus on the words.

57:37 I'm like, wow, that really sucks

57:38 for those who were around Jesus who followed Jesus

57:41 during that time where they just like, wow,

57:42 we are really violating the scripture

57:44 by seeing Jesus' face every day.

57:46 This is really a problem

57:48 because we're only supposed to be focused on the words.

57:50 I think those are intellectually immature positions,

57:55 I would say.

57:57 Doesn't mean they shouldn't be said.

57:58 It's fine to have your position,

57:59 but I don't think that they,

58:01 I don't think that,

58:02 they're an accurate understanding of what we're doing.

58:04 - All right, next lightning round question here.

58:05 What would you say to someone that said,

58:07 I'm uncomfortable with giving money

58:08 to fund entertainment that I haven't seen yet?

58:11 - Good, that's certainly fair.

58:15 So don't, you know, watch season one

58:19 or you know, and if you feel led to pay for it,

58:21 then pay for it.

58:22 I would say that what's odd about that statement would be,

58:27 I think every time you ever go see a movie,

58:29 you're funding a movie you've never seen before.

58:31 - There it is.

58:32 - Like people, we're not asking you to,

58:35 we're asking you to,

58:36 we're not even asking you to do anything.

58:37 We're saying the show is free.

58:38 If you want us to keep going,

58:39 if you want us to be able to finance future seasons,

58:41 someone's got to pay for it at some point

58:43 and you have the choice to do so.

58:45 So, but look at it as optional payment,

58:47 not I'm financing something that I've never seen before.

58:50 The people who did that were the 16,000 investors

58:52 after our short film back in the day who invested,

58:56 they were investing in the show

58:58 and their investment looks pretty darn good right now.

59:00 But yeah, if you don't want to pay anything

59:03 towards until you've seen it,

59:05 well, then I'm afraid you're going to probably not see

59:07 another movie again as long as you live,

59:09 but that's also your choice and don't pay for it

59:12 until you've seen it.

59:13 That's fine with me, it's your choice.

59:15 - All right, there you go.

59:15 Next one here.

59:16 What would you say to someone that said,

59:17 Jonathan Rumi is the best Jesus on film yet?

59:20 - Agreed.

59:23 - Next one.

59:23 What would you say to someone that said,

59:25 all Christian entertainment is corning.

59:28 I would say any time you start any sentence with all,

59:32 you are most likely going to be incorrect

59:35 and sometimes you're going to be prejudiced, racist, sexist.

59:38 So just avoid sentences to start with the word all.

59:42 But, and I would say that that's obviously teach his own,

59:46 but I don't believe that all Christian entertainment

59:47 is corning, I think that's a silly statement.

59:49 - Okay, just a few more left here.

59:50 What would you say to someone that said,

59:52 I'm offended by the chosen?

59:53 - Don't watch it.

59:56 - Oh, you poor, all these, you're breaking so many hearts.

59:59 You know, these people want you to be very, very concerned

1:00:01 that they're so offended.

1:00:03 All right, next one here.

1:00:03 What would you say to someone that said,

1:00:05 I love the chosen?

1:00:06 - Thank you.

1:00:08 I appreciate that.

1:00:08 That's wonderful to hear.

1:00:11 I never gets old hearing that.

1:00:13 - All right, last question of the day, Dallas.

1:00:14 What would you say to someone that said,

1:00:16 I want to know Jesus?

1:00:17 - I would say Jesus wants to know you

1:00:20 and Jesus knows you better than anyone knows you.

1:00:23 And wants a personal relationship with you.

1:00:26 And that's why he came to earth

1:00:27 was cause he wanted to make himself known even more

1:00:31 because he wants you to know him.

1:00:33 And so I would encourage you to start with scripture.

1:00:37 You know, maybe open up the book of John,

1:00:39 which is a great book to start with.

1:00:40 And I would encourage you to plug into a local church

1:00:42 and not expect to understand everything immediately

1:00:45 to know that it's a process,

1:00:47 but then more than anything else I would ask you to lie

1:00:49 in your bed, arms outstretched and say,

1:00:52 God make yourself known and known to me

1:00:54 because I want to know you more.

1:00:55 And I don't know what that looks like.

1:00:56 And I'm not going to hear your audible voice,

1:00:58 but I'm okay with that.

1:00:59 I just want, I'm willing to take the plunge.

1:01:00 I'm willing to surrender and see what happens.

1:01:03 And then indeed see what happens.

1:01:07 All right, well, we've covered a lot of ground

1:01:09 in under an hour, but that's all for me.

1:01:11 Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?

1:01:13 - No, brother, I appreciate this.

1:01:14 This was a great conversation and I love what you do.

1:01:17 And it's great.

1:01:18 And to anyone who's listening, thank you for listening.

1:01:21 I appreciate that as well.

1:01:23 And if you do decide to check out the show,

1:01:24 if you haven't seen it yet, just know, as we've said,

1:01:27 there's an obligation to do anything.

1:01:28 You don't even have to give your email address

1:01:30 if you don't want to.

1:01:31 It's totally free and easy.

1:01:32 What have you got to lose?

1:01:33 And if it speaks to you, and if you enjoy it,

1:01:36 then keep watching.

1:01:37 - Guys, it is well worth your time.

1:01:39 And that is in the show notes so you can get to it that way.

1:01:41 Dallas Jenkins, thank you for coming

1:01:42 on Undaunted Life on Man's Podcast.

1:01:44 - Thanks, brother, and we'll talk soon.

1:01:46 - There you go, guys.

1:01:47 I hope you enjoyed my time with Dallas Jenkins,

1:01:48 but before we let you go,

1:01:49 we are going to do a quick resilience boost.

1:01:51 Add Undaunted Life our mission is equipping men

1:01:53 to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual,

1:01:55 mental, and physical resilience.

1:01:57 And again, I just want to remind you to text Upper Room.

1:02:00 That's Upper Room to 727-472-3860.

1:02:04 That's 727-472-3860.

1:02:06 To get an application to schedule a one-on-one

1:02:08 with Riley Meek of the Upper Room in the Kings Council.

1:02:11 And the only link I've got for you today

1:02:12 is a link to where you can go out

1:02:14 and watch and/or support the chosen.

1:02:16 Guys, if you have not watched seasons one and two,

1:02:18 it is absolutely worth your time.

1:02:20 I wouldn't just jump right into season three.

1:02:22 I mean, you can do whatever the heck you want,

1:02:23 but guys, it is well worth your time.

1:02:25 A lot of you guys, I hear you talk about the shows

1:02:27 you watch on television, and they're just junk.

1:02:29 Not only is the content junk,

1:02:31 it's rotting your brain from the inside,

1:02:33 so support the chosen, I think it's well worth your time.

1:02:35 All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to the show.

1:02:37 We do appreciate it wherever you're listening to this.

1:02:39 Please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star

1:02:41 of you.

1:02:42 If you want me to come speak live at your event

1:02:43 or on your podcast, just shoot me an email

1:02:45 to info@ondaunted.life.

1:02:46 That's I-N-F-O@ondaunted.life.

1:02:49 Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook

1:02:50 and check out our website for everything else,

1:02:52 including how to donate to keep more content

1:02:53 like this coming your way.

1:02:54 Just go to www.ondaunted.life.

1:02:57 And as always, we want to thank the band,

1:02:58 August Burns Red, for allowing us to use their music

1:03:01 for our content.

1:03:01 The musical and this podcast is our song "Cutting the Tides,"

1:03:04 which is off their 10th anniversary

1:03:05 re-recording of their album, "The Leveler."

1:03:07 The links are in the description.

1:03:08 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.

1:03:10 Remember, keep pushing back, darkness,

1:03:13 keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.

1:03:16 Keep seeking the lion of Judah.

1:03:19 (upbeat music)

1:03:22 ♪ You're silent in the heart of the world ♪

1:03:26 ♪ Where all you want is the side of my skin ♪

1:03:31 ♪ As I've heard so ♪

1:03:34 ♪ You will be revived ♪

1:03:52 [BLANK_AUDIO]