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This is Undaunted Life a Man's Podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
0:56
All right guys, we got a special guest on the podcast today. His name is Costie Hinn. So he is
1:00
an evangelical pastor and author and he is the nephew of the infamous Benny Hinn. Yeah, I knew
1:05
some of you kind of keyed in on that last name right there from the beginning. But he is no longer
1:10
part of the Benny Hinn, you know, hegemonic ministry and all the prosperity gospel stuff and all that
1:15
you've seen on TV. But as we get into today, he was the heir parent. He was the nephew that was
1:20
going to take over the whole thing and send it to even bigger heights. But that's just not the way
1:24
that it worked out. And we get into all that in the interview. He is currently the teaching pastor
1:27
at Shepherd's House Bible Church in Chandler, Arizona. He's also the founder and president of
1:32
For the Gospel, which is an online mystery dedicated to providing sound biblical doctrine for everyday
1:36
people. So it's very, very, very accessible. But he's authored several books to include God,
1:40
greed and the prosperity gospel. That's one where he kind of delves into a lot of the stuff that we're
1:44
going to be talking about today. And then we've also got his new book that I've got right here,
1:47
Walking in God's Will, Demystifying God's Plan for Your Life and Making Decisions with Confidence.
1:52
And so in this podcast, we do talk about, you know, at the beginning, I thought we'd get right into
1:56
the Benny Hinn and the Hinn Family stuff. But we talked more so about masculinity because, you know,
2:00
he was aware of our ministry. He's got kind of a group text of guys that really like our content
2:04
and shared around. So we talked about masculinity within the church and some of the things that are
2:08
very important to that discussion. But then we do get into the fact that he grew up the nephew of
2:12
this dominant, huge, you know, billion dollar industry, you know, which is basically the Hinn
2:19
Ministry and kind of what his life was like growing up in palatial estates and flying private everywhere
2:24
and, you know, going to Versace, like we go to, you know, Walmart or something like that. But then
2:29
we talked about how he started to see the cracks in the ministry. He started to hear people say
2:34
things that he knew were not true. He started to see the emotional and spiritual abuse that was
2:40
taking place with people that would come to his uncle's rallies. And then we see, you know,
2:44
he kind of meet some very important people started with the baseball coach and then it was a girlfriend
2:48
then it was a pastor that kind of helped him pull out of some of the things that he'd been entranced
2:53
by and that he had grown up in. And then we talked about kind of where he landed. Then we get into
2:57
the book, we talk about some interesting things in terms of like how we make decisions, you know,
3:01
why he wanted to write a book about God's will because a lot of people just get stuck. And people
3:05
just get stuck making simple decisions, big decisions, and they don't have like a rubric or a matrix to
3:09
follow that they're able to make these decisions into discern God's will. And even at the end,
3:14
we talked about we talked about adultery, talked about some rougher subjects and kind of how he
3:18
counsels people because he brought that up in his book and kind of the difference between
3:23
repentance and remorse. And then we kind of waded into the Calvinist waters just a little bit where
3:29
we talked about how people claim that Calvinists make God the author of evil. And he really talks
3:35
about the the dividing line between what God permits versus what God ordains. And I really
3:40
enjoyed his answer with that. But man, it was just a fantastic time. I wish we had more time. We
3:44
didn't get to most of the questions I wanted to ask. But we got the ones in there that we thought
3:48
would be pretty punchy and good for all you guys. But I'm not going to keep them from you any
3:52
longer. So without further ado, let's get into it. Koste Hinn, welcome to a Dawn of Life of Man's
3:57
podcast. Thanks for having me, bro. Well, it's been a long time coming. We've been kind of circling
4:02
the wagons on this for a little bit. We finally made it happen. You look great. Your setup looks
4:06
fantastic. But you told me something off air that every time I hear something similar to that,
4:10
it kind of makes me like, Oh, no, you told me that you already kind of do who I was before all this.
4:16
And you got like a group text of guys that you called colloquially bros that are very familiar
4:21
with my content. My content kind gets passed around. The problem is Koste is I've been doing
4:26
this for a while. It's like the eighth year of the podcast. We're coming up on 800 episodes.
4:30
I don't know what I said, right? So a lot of times that could be a good thing. But sometimes
4:34
it is a bad thing because I've had some opinions that are not always well received by the wider
4:39
audience or all that. So is this is this a good thing that you knew who I was before coming on
4:44
here? Or is it a bad thing? I can pull up the group chat right now and try to find the files
4:49
that we're getting sent around. But usually so my buddies, and it was a guy, it was a guy named
4:54
Eric in particular who who threw it into the group chat. But there are a number of things that
4:59
happen in our in the group chat. Some some include conspiracy theories. I'm not I'm not going to
5:06
kind of tip my hand. That's not really my game either. Okay. Yeah. But you know, we got we got a
5:12
flat earther in there too. We've got of the moon landing was fake or four. We've got all that.
5:17
And then we've got we got your stuff getting thrown around. But we talk a lot of theology. We
5:21
talk a lot of life manhood stuff. And so you got thrown in there and I it's always weird, you know,
5:27
with your buddies. It wasn't a humble brag. But it was fun when they were like, Oh, who's this guy
5:32
or here? Check this out. I'm like, Hey, I'm going to be on Kyle's podcast soon. Like not to brag. But
5:36
just it people are using your content. So super grateful for you. But you were bragging. But dude,
5:40
I just don't know how I feel about maybe like sandwiched in between like RC sprawl and like,
5:46
Hey, the moon's made a cheese like having those guys on the same. Okay. Well, I guess I just found
5:52
out who my cross section of audiences are. What is that thing that Kamala Harris like Vin diagrams?
5:57
Like that's me in the middle. We got all those other crazy concentric circles going on. Yeah,
6:01
Kamala Harris is still a thing. I don't know if you knew that costy. Like she's still out there
6:04
somewhere drinking wine. She is V has diagrams. I ain't trying to use them. Yeah, I'm with you.
6:10
I'm with you on that. But hey, before we get into how I was planning on starting this,
6:15
I do want to talk a little bit about the state of manhood and masculinity within the church,
6:20
because kind of the whole reason costy why I'm even doing this and then we'll get into the kind
6:25
of year wise to why you're doing mystery and how you ended up there is I was concerned about the,
6:30
you know, tatted up cauliflower ear, tough guys walking into most churches in America and seeing
6:35
all these kind of doughy frumpy dudes with their khakis, you know, singing these songs with their
6:39
limp wrists raised up in the air and that they would just be like, ah, if I have to choose between
6:44
being tough or being a Christian, I think I'll just be tough and costy. One of the most impactful
6:49
emails I've ever received was from a guy that was like in the 70s. He was a, you know, a military
6:53
veteran and he's like, God, when I became a Christian, like in my twenties or thirties,
6:56
I, well, actually no, he said early on in life, I saw two roads. My Robert Frost moment was I
7:03
could be godly or I could be tough. And so I just decided to be tough. And it, he said it was in
7:10
his 70s and whenever he was listening to some of the things that I've said, he's like, holy cow,
7:14
I realize I could have been both at the same time. And so he's like, as opposed to lamenting all the
7:19
time I've wasted, now I'm just going to work on being tough and godly. And so I just feel like
7:24
that's a message that is being co-opted by dudes that are just kind of like pseudo androids. So
7:29
their entire ministry is about how many pullups they can do. And dude, I'm pro pullups, right?
7:34
But it's like, if you can do a bunch of pullups, but you can't quote scripture and you don't know
7:38
how to effectively pray for someone and you've never shared the gospel, it's just like, I don't,
7:42
I don't know how good that is that you can do a fast Murph. You know what I'm saying? So
7:45
from your perspective, being in ministry and being a ministry yourself, what is the state of
7:49
masculinity in the church? We probably see it the same way. And around our parts, we say a lot of
7:56
the things you've just said, we'll talk to men in our congregation and in our ministry that
8:02
you can be a great money manager, you could be wealthy, you could get after it, you could
8:07
have a great body, physicality, you could do jujitsu and you could have a home that rocks. But if you
8:14
aren't rooted in the word of God, if you're not spiritually thriving, if your wife is not being led
8:20
by your spiritual leadership, you're not discipling and pouring into your children, your home is not
8:24
fortified spiritually. It's, it really is what I'll call it useless. I know that'll bother. Some
8:29
guys are like, come on, useless. I'm not useless when it comes to protecting my family. I get it,
8:33
but similar to the way that Jesus tells the story, the parable of the man who's going to build bigger
8:39
barns, he's got all this money. And he says, Oh, look it, look at what all I have. You know what I
8:44
need to know? I need to build bigger barns and then I can store up all my goods. And then he feels
8:47
this sense of peace. I think that's what I'm pushing against. There's a false sense of peace
8:51
in men today because they're able to get after it. They're able to push with the physicality and
8:59
they're able to fortify their life in a way that is good, but it is still earthly. I'll call it,
9:04
not saying that that's wrong or sinful. It's just earthly. Their spiritual life is not. And so
9:10
they're like that man where God says literally to him, you fool this very night. Your very soul
9:18
is being required of you. And what do you got? You got bigger barns. And so in, in my small group,
9:24
my wife and I have a group of people in our church, regular folks, it's not like staff members and
9:29
all the, you know, you've got to be an elder to be in our small group. We're just like the rest of
9:32
the congregation. We lead a small group. And in that group, I've got good brothers with, you know,
9:37
cauliflower ear. I got guys who went to no while were role and one of them in particular last time
9:44
we did, he was just sitting on me and he's a monster. And you know, but his greatest attribute is not
9:52
his ability to manhandle me. And he's, he's an absolute grizzly bear. His greatest attribute
9:59
is his growing character in the Lord. His greatest asset right now is his ability to
10:05
be sanctified or I should call it really God's ability to sanctify him, but his pressing and leaning
10:10
into that and being in the word and focusing on spiritual maturity, that's his greatest asset
10:15
to his family. And so I could talk a lot about different guys in our church and brothers in
10:20
law enforcement and who are real man's man types and FL types and others. But in the end,
10:27
what is the common denominator for us? It's that we're in Christ and we want to lead spiritually
10:34
and not just dominate in our manhood. And so I'll say this, you've got two extremes. And
10:42
I think you've got the sort of what I would call the Joe Rogan branded manhood. And you mentioned
10:50
Tate and maybe you can add a little Jordan Peterson in there. Just, I would say good. There's good
10:57
things in there. Maybe a little David Goggins for you when you know you need men to work hard,
11:01
they're being lazy and you see Goggins running in one of his videos and he's like, Oh, what's your
11:06
birthday? I don't care if it's your birthday. Like go, go run four miles. I'm on my third marathon.
11:10
There's something there that appeals to men. And I think without godliness, it's simply
11:17
personal worldly gain. It's the Andie Elliot kind of vibe. And in that, there are again,
11:24
some good things. But I do think the church is missing as well because the reason those things
11:29
thrive and attract manly men is because there is this other option and it's soft and it's
11:37
you know, fruity looking hair and sort of artsy fartsy dudes that are real passive. And again,
11:42
I love music, love the arts. There's manly men in the arts. And I'm not saying that you can't have
11:47
nice flowy hair. Just you understand the caricature. There's this idea that I've got to be soft.
11:52
And I don't really watch sports and I don't engage in these things. And I'm this almost
11:58
monkish, you know, pick on kind of my own type, this reform dish. I'm just I sit in a book and I
12:03
know big theology, but you know, I never do anything physical either. And so I think the church needs
12:09
just a biblical blend. And if you go by what scripture says, and not the winds of culture,
12:15
but also not the men that are doing it poorly in the church, that's kind of a soft.
12:20
And I we I don't maybe this offend somebody, but we call it again with the men we talked to and
12:27
in disciple to kind of that soy boy brand of Christianity, very soft, very whimpery and very
12:33
weak. That's an extreme. And so is the brash, you know, I'm bold. I'm like Jesus. And so we're
12:39
turning over every table and whipping everyone. We're a hammer and everything's a nail. We got
12:43
to avoid those extremes. Jesus and Christianity is not this soft, weak, whimpering religion. At
12:50
the same time, we're not a bull in a China shop. It's a measured spirit filled spirit led manhood,
12:56
which is going to include some toughness. But we're also tender. And we know how to shepherd.
13:02
And that means to corral and guide. We also know how to beat on wolves and deal with the threats.
13:07
And so those are things I'm seeing. We are not experiencing a retreat. In our parts,
13:16
we're experiencing an advance with our men. So I'm thankful that's God's grace. But we talk
13:22
about this stuff a lot with our elders, with our team. My preaching is constantly being assessed.
13:30
We think about what the cadence is within the ministry. And so I appreciate what you're doing.
13:35
But once in a while, I hammer on these dudes that are just brash bullies. And some people get mad.
13:42
And then once in a while, I hammer on kind of softies and they get mad. And I think if you're
13:47
never pleasing everyone at the same time, you're probably doing something right. Well,
13:52
Kossy, we have we have a calibration problem with a lot of people. So the guys that are super aggro,
13:57
they don't know how to calibrate down. Right. So they're lying all the time. And they don't know
14:02
how to do lamb. Right. And then we got the guys that are as soft as soft can be. And they don't
14:06
know how to ratchet things up at all. And so I forget who said it, but oh, it was a Driscoll,
14:10
he who shall not be named. But Driscoll said, you know, it is so you need to be lying for them and
14:16
lamb with them. And the point being that with my with my wife and my kids, so I have that on the
14:21
background on my phone because I tend towards the aggro, which is a shock to nobody with a functioning
14:25
brain. But sometimes the thing is, is if I'm lying all the time, then my kids are anxious. Like,
14:31
Oh my gosh, is the lion going to eat us or is he going to protect us? And if I'm lamb all the time,
14:36
and they don't know that the lion's available, they're going to be anxious because they're like,
14:39
man, if a wolf shows up, we're screwed, right? Like, I know of a guy that I love,
14:44
but there was something that went bump in the night, and he woke up his wife to go check,
14:48
right? And I know several guys that are kind of like that. And here's the thing, guys,
14:52
because I think you're speaking my language in that. I know some dudes that are black belts and
14:55
jujitsu that are white belts at pursuing the hearts of their daughters. And I was like,
14:59
that's not a good thing. Like, that's not good at all. It's like, you can whoop tail. But the,
15:03
the cadence and the, you know, the, the number of times you're going to need to seek the heart of
15:08
your daughter to make her feel loved. I mean, compared to the number of times you're going to have to
15:13
use jujitsu to win a street fight. Like, gosh, there's a tremendous inequity there. But for me,
15:18
when I tell people all the time, because people are like, look, there's not a whole lot of grace.
15:22
There's more truth on your show. And you keep saying, you know, you end your show with keep
15:25
seeking the line of Judah, why don't you talk about the Lamb of God? I'm like, look, guys,
15:28
everyone's already talking about the Lamb of God. Everyone's already talking about grace.
15:31
Everyone's already talking about wispy hair Danish Jesus, and not somehow like a Middle Eastern
15:35
Jewish construction worker that was a super rough dude. And so I'm just trying to like pull the
15:40
pendulum a little bit this way to the benefit of the aggro guys to bring them down a little bit
15:45
into the benefit of the soft guys to bring them up a little bit. So we're, we're certainly singing
15:49
off the same, the same sheet of music right now. But I will just say your first answer is shocking to
15:55
me as somebody with the last name, Hinn, because whenever you first popped onto my radar, I was like,
16:01
dude, I bet this guy's knocking people down with his coat and then come come to find out. That's not
16:06
exactly what happened. I kind of like backed into your story and all those types of things.
16:10
But there are going to be a lot of people that click on this podcast costy that that they see the
16:14
last name and they're like, wait a minute, because because they're not familiar. They're more so
16:18
familiar with some of the patriarchs of your family. And so let's just start generically, I guess.
16:23
What was it like growing up in the Hinn family? And then specifically how you kind of got
16:28
ingratiated or integrated into the family ministry, as it were? Yeah, growing up, it was like a hybrid
16:36
between the royal family and the mafia. We were super wealthy and then loyalties enforced a lot of
16:40
type A, just driven high caliber, high output, high pace type of capacities within the family.
16:48
Growing up in that, you view ministry through what I would say in in some ways is a very good lens,
16:57
meaning we got after it. And in a lot of ways, more ways than healthy, you grow up in a very
17:03
unhealthy environment where ministry is the mistress and the wife and family are left in the dust,
17:09
where the ministry is the first focus and the home is not where people are really far below you
17:18
and just a means to an end and where it's all about the holy man. And I would say our power,
17:24
what we had, what we possessed. And I would say to now on the other side of all of that,
17:30
I have found that irrespective of theology and false doctrine and the prosperity gospel,
17:35
that type of spirit or culture exists in every denomination and every theological
17:40
orbit, because where you have people, you have problems where you have people,
17:45
you have vying for power. But in our orbit, we were kind of king of the castle and top of the
17:52
totem pole. And over the years when people would attack us, we were and are still a Middle Eastern
18:00
family. My father was born and raised in Jaffa, Israel, but he speaks fluent Arabic, their Arabs,
18:05
my whole family on that side. And so you enforce the family loyalty and blood is thicker than
18:12
water and all of these things. And so in that regard, my dad has sit there six boys, two girls,
18:18
eight kids. And I grew up in a very strong family unit type of space. And so the idea that I would
18:28
ever believe different than my family, not even a thought, the idea that I would ever do anything
18:33
different than my family, not even a thought over the years people would attack us. And CBC,
18:38
I grew up in Canada after my dad moved from my uncle's ministry in Florida up to Vancouver,
18:42
British Columbia, and Canadian Broadcasting Corporation did a piece, Dateline NBC did a piece,
18:48
Inside Edition did a piece back then. And we used to say, yeah, they're all just attacking us because
18:54
this is what happened to Jesus. This is what happened to Paul. You get persecuted if you're
19:00
serving the Lord. And when you're at the top of the totem pole, there's always someone trying to
19:03
pull you down. So all of those things are just bread in my mind. And I grew up in that I start
19:09
questioning things along the way, because truth is still truth. So I'd see things as I got older
19:14
and go, man, and something done that up. But when people ask me why, why didn't you clue in earlier,
19:21
I say, one, my eyes were blinded. And that's what the devil does. The Bible says that he blinds
19:27
the minds of unbelievers. My mindset was in a state of falsehood. And I didn't understand truth,
19:36
and I didn't have an awareness of truth. And so I'm stuck in that. So my mindset is locked on that
19:41
target. And the target is false teaching. I'm sucked in. Secondarily, though, when you're living the
19:46
dream, and you're in this lifestyle that involves, you know, what you see pro athletes living like,
19:52
we I grew up in a 10,000 square foot home. I drove a Benz in high school and then got to college,
19:58
I was driving a custom Hummer. I had brightly watched like $10,000 limited edition watch. I was
20:04
shopping. We actually have a guide our church. This is verified. We have a guide our church when
20:10
I've often said, like, y'all shop it. I don't know, maybe you shop online. But if you go to like a
20:15
normal store, but people go to Target, they go to Coles, they go wherever Nordstrom's rack or
20:20
Nordstrom's, we would just go to Versace is like a normal shopping trip. And I would just like buy
20:26
underwear, undershirts, like, like you order a new pair of Haynes, whatever's. And I'm in Versace,
20:33
just like, yeah, I need these. And you know, and so I'm laughing, I used to tell the people in my
20:38
testimony, like even my undershirts were Versace. People always used to laugh. I meet a guy at our
20:42
church, walks in one Sunday and he goes, you don't know me, but I know you, bro. I was like,
20:46
what are you talking about? And he goes, so every time you say my even my undershirts were Versace,
20:52
I worked at Versace in South Coast Plaza. I know exactly, I was laughing. He's at our church,
20:58
literally like getting baptized in a couple of weeks. And so that is that it comes full circle
21:05
sometimes. But man, that was the life best hotels in the world. Condor McGregor status,
21:11
just we didn't have $100 million yacht. But that was the life. And so when you hear things that
21:16
aren't true, you might think twice and then you go, nah, like, look at our life. You're telling me
21:22
God's not with us, bro. God's not blessing at this level. If we're living lies, there's no way.
21:28
So you're you're living in that life and you gave us a really good, some really good word
21:33
pictures as kind of what life looks like. And it's easy to get romance by that because you kind of
21:38
get high on your own farts to a degree. And like, if you have that level of success, it's like,
21:42
well, gosh, I got to be saying something right. But it's like, I was talking to Melissa Doherty
21:46
here recently, she has a great book out called Happy Lies. And it's like the things that are
21:51
close, like kind of new thawdish or new agey. Yes, a lot of those things work. Why do you think
21:56
they work? Like, because nobody would believe in it, nobody would keep doing it if it never worked.
22:01
If your horoscope was never correct, then no one would ever read their horoscope, right? If no one
22:05
ever won the lottery, no one would buy lottery tickets. And so it's kind of that promise of
22:09
something, but the something is farther away than we could ever imagine. But for being the nephew of
22:16
kind of the the dominant hegemon of the group, which would be Benny, what was that like whenever
22:20
you would see Benny come under attack, but then even specifically, you were working for the ministry,
22:25
you weren't just hanging out in the family, and you know, you weren't just, you know, enjoying the
22:29
spoils as it were sitting by the poolside. Like you were actually working on the inside. And so
22:34
what did it look like from the inside? Because you've described a lot before, there's kind of a
22:38
dark underbelly to this whole prosperity thing. And again, there's been a lot of ink spilled and
22:43
exposés made about things like that. But give us the first hand view, that's kind of what it
22:48
looked like and what you saw was going on like with your uncle. Yeah, as I got older, the amount
22:55
of cracks in the dam increased like crazy. And I would see certain things that were blatantly
23:02
false, but it would affect me emotionally. So I would see a kid not get healed. And his parents
23:08
come to the back to the green room and give a massive donation like we're talking big six figures
23:15
and just want to be prayed for. And nothing would happen. And I'm starting to have just
23:21
nightmarish afterthoughts back at our five star hotels and thinking like, God, why aren't you,
23:27
why didn't you heal them? Are you kidding me? Like what? And then thinking, wait, if we had the gift
23:33
of healing and we could wield it and gunsling with it, are you like, why aren't we, we should just
23:40
be walking back there to the wheelchair section and just empty it every wheelchair like, why aren't we
23:48
going rapid fire kind of Pacman style and just wailing them all and then do it and then film that
23:53
tell the world everyone will shut up because it's real. Yeah, say something now, we just healed 800
23:58
straight people. I used to start I started thinking like and part of that is just being the wiring I
24:06
am being a normal guy. I think athletics too. I played baseball in college and I'm like, when
24:11
your athlete brain like ball doesn't lie, game doesn't lie, the rules are like you just the stats
24:17
are the stats. And so I started thinking that way as I hit like 15, 16, 17, 18, I worked for my uncle.
24:23
I took a year off college, put baseball on the shelf and everything and went and worked for him
24:28
for a year and a half. And during that time flew on a Gulfstream jet, that's all we flew. He was flying
24:35
G4, G5 at that time, chartering one from some big like faith healer called Morris Cerillo back
24:40
of the day, dude out of San Diego. So we're chartering his G4. And before that mount got a G3. So we're
24:46
like flying Gulfstream. And everywhere we go, I'm in this juxtaposition where two benzes, two
24:54
Bentley's, two beamers, whatever they are picking us up onto our style to the plane, pulling up on
24:58
the tarmac. We're going staying in these five star hotels and then seeing these things and starting
25:03
to notice stuff like, Hey, that what? Whoa, that's that's not true. Or we said this that and then
25:09
being really, really conflicted and then starting to pay more attention behind the scenes. And I
25:15
start seeing things that are fake, things that are financially not just small oversights or mistakes,
25:23
but massive indiscretions, things that are unbiblical things that are illegal things that aren't even
25:30
accurate to say to people. And then we're doing this. And at that point, I remember starting to ask
25:36
some questions behind the scenes. And when people didn't get healed, suddenly, God is sovereign.
25:42
Like, well, we can't always explain why God's not doing it. But maybe they had a lack of faith.
25:48
Maybe that maybe their heart, maybe they've been listening to negative people and they had their
25:52
healing and they lost it by the time they got to the parking lot was to preach that stuff. Like,
25:56
tonight, you have your healing. It's guaranteed in the atonement because Jesus died for it.
26:01
But you can lose it in that parking lot. Maybe God will be completing your healing two weeks
26:05
from now. And you need to be faithful and you need to give a gift tonight of a thousand dollars.
26:09
And so that seed that seed will produce a harvest. But if you listen to negative people and you get
26:14
around negative people, that anointing will leave the anointing you receive tonight will leave and
26:18
you'll lose you. I know people, my uncle would say, who have lost their healing before they even
26:23
got to the parking lot. Careful who you listen to. And so all of a sudden you've got this gag order.
26:28
It's like a cult. People are scared to lose their healing. They're scared to lose their miracle.
26:32
I start seeing that noticing going, uh, yeah, this don't make sense. But I don't know the truth.
26:39
And I did read the Bible. We'd interact with scripture. Sometimes people think my uncle or my
26:44
dad or whoever are like, you know, James Bond villain in their evil lair, like stroking their white cat
26:48
and being like, ha, fool them again. When I say these men have Bibles loaded with highlights,
26:56
margin notes, packed that they study. I'm not lying. They actually interact with the Bible.
27:03
That's why it's so disturbing. They take that and they twist it. It'd be actually be a little
27:08
better if they were theatrical scam artists, just pull the wool over your eyes like this dude. And,
27:13
uh, remember Darren something, the miracles for sale? You remember that documentary by the
27:18
hypnotist? Have you seen that? No, no, no. Oh, you got to Google it. They trained a guy to be a fake
27:24
faith healer. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen those clips. Yeah. Dude called miracles for sale.
27:30
And they used kind of my uncle as some of that inspiration. It'd be way easier if it were just
27:35
that. I'm talking these guys know the Bible. So it's extra dangerous, which I believe that's how
27:41
Satan works. He Paul says, what did he do in the desert? Yeah. Well, he was totally scripture.
27:46
Angel of light and he's throwing stuff at you. And so in all of that, I started a question.
27:52
And the Lord started, uh, I would say draw my heart. I didn't completely understand what was
27:57
happening, but I really started thinking, I think I got to get away from some of this. Hey, guys,
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tough dot com promo code Kyle. So you can see the cracks in the foundation, which that in and of
30:27
itself is a blessing because some people see the cracks and they're like, there must be a problem
30:31
with my eyes. That can't be a crack. And so you're seeing this, uh, you know, you're coming of age
30:36
again, you know, 25 before your brain's fully functioning and fully developed. And so you're
30:41
still kind of in your developmental phase and you're kind of seeing things that just don't sit well.
30:44
But let's, let's work our way to the moment where you're like, no, like that's it. Like I've crossed
30:50
the Rubicon and I'm not going back. I'm not going to be a part of this. I'm not going to be a part
30:54
of the family business anymore. It was in three phases. And I'll just say it was the coach, the
31:01
girl and then the church or you could say the pastor. I go to college after working for my uncle
31:07
and I go to Dallas Baptist University. It's a D one and right in the Dallas area, play baseball
31:12
there and my coach. He's still there. Coach Dan Heafner, uh, man's man literally has five sons and
31:18
he's saying stuff to us as players like, Hey guys, don't worry about scouts. Don't worry about
31:25
the things you can't control. Just play your game. God is sovereign. He controls everything.
31:30
Just trust him. And I'm just like this guy. Like what's he talking about? And like, I know how to
31:34
get God to work for me and do what I want. I know how to be favored. He's literally a Baptist dude
31:39
with a white Camry at that time. I've got my Hummer. I've got my Breitling watch. I mean, I'm a baller
31:44
at Dallas Baptist University. Might still some of my former teammates, uh, and I will text sometimes
31:49
and we just crack up solid, solid believer type guys that are just still laughing. Like, costy, I,
31:56
you were just something, dude. And I was that guy. Well, coach Heafner really looks through a lot of
32:03
that. And whether he fully understood or knew or not what he was saying and how it was impacting me,
32:08
he starts saying like Proverbs 21 one says the heart of a king is like channels of water in the
32:13
hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever he wishes. He's like God controls kings. He controls scouts.
32:18
He's sovereign. And I'm just like, what this guy's about? He knows nothing. There's a dead Christian.
32:22
Like we have the anointing. We are top of the pyramid. This guy, but little seeds like that are
32:30
planted. And he's pumping the gospel. And I'm hearing a lot of things that at the time, I don't
32:35
realize are eroding the foundation that I've been standing on in a good way. Then I graduate
32:43
and I meet a girl in California where I started living again, because we had two homes beach,
32:48
beach home in like the San Juan, Capistrano area off of PCH Pacific Coast, highway, and then our
32:53
place in Canada. And I meet this girl, my now wife and mother of my six children, our six children.
32:59
And she immediately adjacent all Dean concert of all things called wagon wheel. Like, and we are
33:06
I'm smitten by her. And first thing that I keep her secret for a while. And the first thing my
33:13
family asks when they realize I'm dating some girl is is she spirit filled. I'm like, yeah,
33:17
she's spirit filled like everybody gets the Holy Spirit when we get saved. And they're like, no,
33:20
no, no, no, no, no. Did she like like us spirit filled? I'm like, please don't do that with this
33:26
one. Like I'm I'm asking like she's sweet. She saw it. I'm telling. Nope. Does she? And we
33:30
believed at that time and taught if you don't speak in tongues, you don't have the Holy Spirit
33:34
and you're not saved. Like it was that level. And there are obviously going to be differences,
33:40
maybe some Pentecostal circles. But there are a ton of wonderful, I'll call them biblically-minded
33:46
Pentecostals. I've got dear friends like this that we dialogue with who don't attach tongues
33:51
to salvation. But there's a whole bunch of people that do and they'll say, Oh, you don't speak in
33:55
tongues. Like you're a second-class citizen. And so she gets taken through the ringer.
33:59
And my uncle, she goes to my dad's services and they're trying to get her to get filled with the
34:04
Holy Spirit. And she's trying, dude. She's like, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And they're like,
34:08
open up your lips. Just say whatever. And dude, she's trying so hard to get tongues.
34:13
And eventually starts bawling after a service. I'm like, what? And she's like, I don't think I'm
34:18
ever going to get it. I, you know, and all this stuff. And like don't, if someone's listening,
34:22
don't email me or message me like, Hey, I know you had a bad experience. Like I can get your tongues.
34:27
I've had like a hundred emails. Everyone, well-meaning people are always like,
34:31
you experienced something. Trust me, we got the real thing. Listen, God is sovereign. Holy Spirit
34:36
gives us gifts. If he wants to give us tongues, he'll give them for real. But in this case, my wife
34:41
and I go, maybe we should study the Bible of all things. She's my girlfriend still.
34:46
Yeah. Let's study the Bible. We open up the Bible. We start searching. We come to 1 Corinthians 12-30.
34:51
Paul's like, not all do they about healing miracles, tongues, interpreted. Oh, not everybody has the
34:58
same gifts. It's a variety of gifts. Hold on. Wait. So you don't have to speak in tongues to be saved.
35:04
You don't have to speak in tongues to be validated. Oh my goodness. And so we're like crying, laughing.
35:09
I think you're off the hook. And then I start thinking, dude, what else do I believe that's not
35:14
accurate? And so we start studying. That point creates the fractures that start leading to family
35:22
conflict. And I'm kind of like back off of her, I'm going to marry her anyway. Like we had broken
35:28
up twice. One of the times was because someone had said they'd prophesied she's not my wife and
35:32
that she would ruin the anointing on my life. Oh boy. Another family member prophesied, if I
35:38
marry this girl, she'll be barren because I'm outside of God's will. Like just and remember,
35:44
you have to remember, I know some people are like, what? Middle Eastern family in non-white
35:50
culture. And now I think more and I say that like my family, these white people, you know,
35:54
they'd be like, these Americans, these Westerners don't know. It's like, you got to have a son first,
35:59
you carry on the family name. And like, when your wife has a son first, you are validated. And so
36:04
I'm first generation, first born son in the Hinn family. So of all the cousins, I'm the oldest
36:10
costy. And by the way, there are more than there's more than just me. There's a number of us.
36:15
One is even a pastor. So if you Google costy, and you'll find a few others. That's tradition. You
36:21
name your first born son after your father, my grandfather's name was costy. So me marrying the
36:25
wrong girl is like a huge deal. And I'm air apparent. They've been like prophesying over me
36:31
that I'm going to take the ministry to heights never seen. I'm going to heal more people than my
36:35
uncle. Oh, dude, all this stuff. Like, and I'm a little bit cocky and a little bit scared because
36:41
I'm supposed to be next or whatever. And it's pressure. And then now I'm going to marry this
36:46
girl. So the family's up in arms. We're starting to go at it. And this door opens in California to
36:52
sort of escape. I don't know what's what yet. But I end up at this church plant in Orange County.
36:59
And the dude's kind of like, Hey, just do youth ministry. Be our students guy. I know a guy there
37:04
who's my buddy like a hockey buddy and because I love hockey. And he's a like hockey bro. And we
37:10
had been involved in that church a little bit as a plant very early. Then I go to Canada. I'm going
37:14
to take the church there. Christine's going to marry me. And it all just blows up. We escape.
37:19
We go to California. We get married and enter ministry the same week. At this point, I know
37:24
nothing about my family's the prosperity gospel and I'm going to be, you know, a Baptist. It's not
37:30
that it's I need to get away from them. They're a little intense and they're they're spiritually
37:34
abusing this girl. I'm going to marry. Like I'm out. I don't want to be that. But I still have all
37:39
my same beliefs. I just don't want to be abusive. Within months, I get assigned a text and it's
37:47
John five one through 17. I'm going to preach it at the church. And it's the healing at the
37:51
pool of Bethesda. And I'm like, I got this nail them a hen. Like it's healing. I know that. Like
37:55
I won't be crazy like my uncle, but I know I know healing. And this pastor gives me a commentary
38:02
by some dude named John MacArthur. I'm like, whatever, like John MacArthur, some burgundy
38:06
commentary. And MacArthur has been pretty strong against my uncle all these years and false teaching.
38:12
And so in this commentary in this section on healing, he says, all these things that the
38:18
text say, all these things that I've never really thought about before, like Jesus heals one man.
38:22
And I'm like, one, it's always God's will to heal everybody. If they don't get healed,
38:26
they don't have enough faith, that's just their problem. But I'm like, you healed one,
38:29
heals them immediately. And I start thinking, no limping, no white jacket, no music, no offering.
38:35
Like you just healed the guy and he complained that he couldn't get to the pool in time. Like what?
38:38
And then I see that the Pharisees tell them who told you could pick up your palate and walk. Like
38:44
it's the Sabbath. And he says, the man who healed me did. And then John and John five records for the
38:50
man didn't know who Jesus was, he had slipped away. And I'm like, wait, how did he have enough faith
38:55
to get healed if he didn't even know who Jesus was? The guy who he doesn't even know the guy.
39:00
I'm like, oh, I need to do I need to get this commentary. I never used a commentary before.
39:05
And MacArthur tees off in this section about this text being a beautiful picture of God's sovereignty
39:13
in salvation and in healing that nothing this man did earned Jesus's love, earned Jesus's
39:20
picking of him to be healed or made Jesus think, yeah, this guy's a good candidate. Look at all his
39:25
faith. Were there times that faith moved Christ? Yeah, but there were other times where someone
39:31
just did not the guy actually did the opposite. He complained and he gets healed. So I'm like,
39:35
whoa, whoa, whoa, this is different. And then from there, he says, this is a beautiful picture of God's
39:41
sovereignty and salvation and in healing that we don't make ourself healable, lovable, approachable.
39:47
God enters our situation, divine intervention and changes our hearts. I'm like, whoa, this makes
39:52
sense. Like he is sovereign. And then I'm like, my coach. Oh my goodness, it's you're the you're
39:58
the initiator. I'm the responder. I don't start this thing. You do. I don't fix myself. You do.
40:02
And then that if that's not enough, MacArthur goes, and therein we find the the cruelest lies
40:10
of faith healers today. And dude, this does me in. He says that the people they fail to heal
40:16
are guilty of negative confession, unbelief. And he just keeps going and I start crying,
40:20
like big, like crocodile tear just soaking the Bible. I was in study. And it all makes sense.
40:27
I'm like, we were those false teachers. I, I, oh, and every single moment, like a movie montage,
40:34
not to be dramatic or hyperbolic, like seriously, every single moment that somebody had planted a
40:40
seed, it just exploded. And I repented of my sin. I repented of believing a false gospel.
40:46
I vowed to preach the true gospel. I told the Lord, I'll do whatever it takes. I'll do whatever
40:50
you need me to do. I'll go anywhere, do anything, give up anything. And I went over to my pastor's
40:55
office and told him what had happened. And he's like, bro, like you're out of ministry, effective
40:59
immediately. You're, you're going to be a pastor in training. If you want to be in ministry,
41:04
we believe you're called to that, but like you're done. And so I become a P it pastor in training,
41:08
like a pledge at my church and like some little frat pledge. I just go do this, go do that. I was
41:14
thankful to still have a little job. And I go to seminary and that that's when it's full tilt
41:20
against the family and not because I was angry at them. I love them. My uncle never did anything
41:26
wrong, paid me well, favored me, my dad, like Middle Eastern family, the roots are deep.
41:31
It was everything made sense now. You guys are actively anti Christ, the gospel, the church,
41:39
you're, you're raping the body of Christ. You are pilfering the coffers. You're, we're abusing,
41:46
like you can't do this. And then it would be easier if I was a business guy, I would just go
41:50
start my business, leave the family and do my thing. But the Lord made me a pastor. So I now
41:56
have to preach the truth and refute error. So with the same last name and a little bit of the
42:00
dramatic storyline, it's like I have, I'm compelled to deal with that issue. And from there, you know,
42:07
people would be like, a hen, and I'm like, yeah, and they're like, you know, you have the same last
42:11
name of that crazy dude. I'm like, I know. And they're like, you're not related, are you? I'm like,
42:14
yeah. And then the question was, wait, how are you preaching the Bible and come from that? So,
42:19
the ball rolled from there. But in the end, I'm just a pastor shepherding the flock and thankful to,
42:27
but required then to deal with this monstrous thing. And that we're all called to go after the
42:33
wolves. John Calvin said the preacher has two voices, one to call in the sheep and one to call
42:38
out the wolves. And that became the mandate. And obviously the family takes it personal. But for
42:44
me, it's just about the gospel. Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about the family. Because again,
42:48
I kind of understand I grew up in in small town, smallish town in Oklahoma, but it was a very,
42:54
very diverse town because we had a big factory there. We had an army base there. And so I was around
42:59
people from all kinds of different backgrounds. And so when you say, like, Oh, that's a white
43:03
people thing, or oh, that's Middle Eastern family thing. Like I get it. Like I saw those types of
43:06
interactions, like with all kinds of different backgrounds. And so that's part of the thing when
43:11
you see Muslims convert to Christianity, whether they're being visited by Christ in their dreams
43:16
in Iraq, or whether they're Americanized Muslims. This is not like, Oh, I've just converted to a new
43:22
thing. And we do like white Americans and we got, Oh, isn't that sweet? Timmy got baptized. And we
43:26
just got no, no, no, this is like you're chopping off the arms of all the favorite people in your
43:31
family. And so done for you. Like, what is it like with your family? Do you still get invited to
43:36
Thanksgiving? Like, you know, what does this look like now being a hen? Yeah, so I have some
43:42
relationships that the Lord has brought back. I would say siblings. Yeah, I got two sisters, love
43:47
them like crazy. And in some interaction with them throughout the year, like meaningful
43:54
interaction and togetherness, I just got to see my one sister in the Dallas area recently and
44:00
love, love, love my family. Anytime I'm visiting different states, if they're there, they're in
44:06
town somewhere and dialogue with my parents, of course, my mom, my dad, and all of that. But
44:12
as far as like the extended family, I've had a few family members call privately and kind of say,
44:18
like, Hey, we don't want to disrupt the status quo. So we're we're kind of saying like, go costy,
44:23
go like it's about time at one particular family member. You know, like in the aunt, uncle kind of
44:30
category, call and say, like every time I see one of your videos, you're doing something and you're
44:37
dealing with this, like, I know you're a pastor, I know you write on other things and do other
44:41
things. But anytime you deal with it, like I'm just know I am visualizing like all of us following in
44:47
Jesus footsteps. I know there's times where you have to turn the tables over and remember them
44:51
using that analogy. And I was like, well, I don't mean to just attack the family. And they were like,
44:58
no, it's about time. And I cheered every time. I just can't say anything because I really don't
45:04
want to ruin all the relationships. And I feel like your role is different than mine. And like,
45:09
totally get it. And and yet at the same time, like that's an example, though, we're there is not a
45:16
clear definitive familial verdict. Like he is a false teacher there. It splits bill. And yet we do,
45:23
I think as humans with family, we try to choose to have some relationship. I mean,
45:29
who wants to lose their relationship with their kids, their brother, their sister,
45:33
Jesus said in Matthew 10 34 to 39, I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword.
45:38
And I came to and then he says, divide, you're like, what do you do with that text? It's true.
45:44
Mother, daughter, mother-in-law daughter-in-law father set like the family will divide over
45:50
what you do with Jesus Christ and what you believe about Jesus Christ. And I do think that
45:54
we are at times soft. Again, we don't need to be a till of the hunt and burn everything to the
45:59
ground. But we are sometimes soft in that we will find all of the mitigating excuses to stay
46:07
in the good graces of family, be it for money, for just keeping the peace for the grandkids for
46:13
whatever at the expense of blasphemous truth, very dangerous ideologies. I'm not, again, I'm not
46:20
saying like you have a small difference of secondary differences. Someone's a Presbyterian,
46:24
the other family's a charismatic and it's like, let's blow up Thanksgiving in every bridge. Not
46:28
saying that. But we got to be mindful that there are times where truth is truth and Jesus has to be
46:37
more important than our blood relatives. That's why he says in Luke 14, when this huge crowds following
46:43
him, verse 25, the narrative that Luke is writing says, and the multitudes are following Jesus,
46:50
he turns to them and says, if you don't hate Jesus, this word, it means a lesser love. If you
46:56
don't hate your father, your brother, your mother, and he goes on this whole list, you're like,
46:59
what does he say? This is the worst, worst way to grow the church ever, worst way for your PR to
47:04
continue to expand Jesus. He says, with all the people there, and what is even your own life,
47:10
not, hey, you should probably make some, you cannot be my disciple, he says. So you can't be a
47:18
disciple of Christ if you don't love Christ the most. And I don't say that as some dude that did
47:23
that perfectly. I was sometimes very angry and just torched him. I did and do because I would be
47:29
similar to you. I, if you give me the option of fight or flight, it's fight. If you, you know,
47:35
were to say, am I, do I run at 10 or zero? It's 10. Is it, you know, hot or cold? I'm a flamethrower.
47:42
I have that. That is my natural bent. And the Lord has taught me and still always teaching me
47:47
to be strength under control. Meekness isn't weakness. We want to be like Christ. But man,
47:52
there is a gear that men have to be able to go to say, listen, you're not going to gaslight me,
47:57
you're not going to threaten me, you're not going to keep bullying and having your way.
48:01
I'll tell you this, here are the lines. You want to play the way I tell you to play inside this fence,
48:06
the fence of truth. You and I, we can have relationship and you can have relationship with my family.
48:10
You want to play outside the lines that Christ has drawn? Guess what? We're going to have limited
48:15
relationship. And if you call that lack of love, you don't know what love is. If you say that's
48:20
just mean-spirited and I'm a Pharisee, you don't understand what the Pharisees were actually doing.
48:25
So we've got to have that gear. And that's what it led to. And so it has been
48:30
bleak and vague with, or bleak and, and there's been differences, I would say like space between
48:40
distance. And yet, I've got a family. I've got a wife. I've got six kids. We have a church family.
48:48
And I'm not looking for handouts from my family. I'm not looking for the cavalry to come over the
48:53
hill. Daddy's money's not going to save me. And no one else needs. I don't need pity. I have Jesus.
48:58
So even when we were broke, like, I felt like I was rich. I had the Lord. And even when things
49:03
were hard, I'm like, and people would say, Oh, it must be so hard. Like, and they would feel bad
49:07
for us. I appreciate it from the standpoint of family hatred is difficult. But bro, like,
49:14
no, we just won. Do you know what it's like realizing that you're in heresy? They can have it all.
49:22
It's like the old song. Take this world, but give me Jesus. I'm good. I'll make some money. I'll find
49:28
a job. The Lord will make it up. I'm good. I'll live on less. I don't care. I don't want to burn
49:33
in hell as a heretic. And I don't want to be a party to abuse of what Jesus died for. I want to
49:39
be on the side of truth. So I say that not saying life's never hard. But man, when Christ is everything,
49:46
like he's everything, and we're winning when we're on his side. Well, in custody, it obviously seems
49:52
like you've ended up in a very biblical place. Like you're, you're living a lifestyle that can be
49:56
defended by biblical truths. There's, but there's always the pool. There's always the pool of the
50:02
past life. So the person that used to be a drug abuser, they're safe now, and they're on a good
50:08
path. They get down the dumps about something. Maybe things are going wrong in their relationship.
50:11
Maybe things are going wrong at work, and they just fill that pool of the chemical, right? Or they
50:14
fill the pool of the, you know, some of these guys that would gamble, right? And kind of hide that,
50:18
and they needed that thrill of, okay, maybe this is the hand where I get it all back or something
50:22
like that. And so it's almost like it would make sense that you would feel the pool back. But I
50:27
almost just wonder more than anything else that if your uncle were to walk in that room with you
50:32
right now, and it's you and Benny sitting there, all the cameras turn off and all that, and it's
50:36
just you two. What are you telling? Oh, if you would repent of your sin and turn from all of it,
50:44
and just announce to the world the same way that you've publicly preached false,
50:48
and you've publicly spiritually abused and twisted scripted publicly repent like Zacchaeus.
50:54
This is your moment. Just go Zacchaeus on the whole thing. Don't go Judas, remorse, hide,
50:59
and go hang yourself. Go Peter, weep bitterly. Come on, tell the whole world, and then
51:04
it'll be hard. Most people won't believe you. But guess what? If you're legit and you bear fruit,
51:11
the fruit that John the Baptist says, bear fruit and keep them with repentance, you just go public.
51:15
Who cares? Everything you think you're going to lose, you probably will, but you'll gain Christ.
51:20
And guess what? I'll be louder, and most people who are godly and actually want people to be saved,
51:26
they don't want heretics to burn. They want the blasphemers to come to Christ. We're not like,
51:30
"Yeah, let's blow them all to smithereens." Everyone who legitimately loves the gospel and souls,
51:37
guess what? They love yours too and so do I. We're with you and we'll be louder, 10 times,
51:43
100 times, 1000 times louder for your true repentance than we ever were against your false
51:47
teaching. So come on home. Enter through the narrow gate. Let's go. And it's done. And I think
51:55
there's people that want a pound of flesh. Yeah, forget them. Who cares? Let them. People that go,
52:01
I'll never believe it. He needs to burn rot and live out his days in some little, you know, like
52:07
Saddam Hussein, stick him in the ground in some little hole and he can, he can rot there and just
52:11
be thankful he gets into heaven by the skin of his teeth. Listen, the thief on the cross probably
52:16
bothered so many people who thought all of their works and all of their penance and all that they
52:22
did would earn them heaven. And then here's Jesus just telling one guy who says, because you know I'm
52:26
the son of God now and you know you deserve to be on this cross and I don't you say, shut up
52:32
basically to the other thief. Hey, you're going to be with me in paradise. You can have the thief
52:37
on the cross moment. And yes, your life has been full of destructive behaviors. Guess what?
52:44
It's level ground at the foot of the cross. You, me, all of us, it's the same thing. We come as beggars
52:51
and he's rich and he pours out the riches of his grace on us. I would beg him to turn and walk
52:58
in the truth. And bro, I wouldn't care what I lose. Don't care if everyone's I cost you it soft.
53:03
Oh, it was all he always, you know, he needs to still hold. We need to hold this guide arm's length.
53:07
Paul was the same way. Okay. They didn't trust him. In this the murderer, the persecutor. I'm not
53:13
really sure what to do with him. Yeah. Well, God used him to write 13 of the 27 New Testament books,
53:18
14, if you want to argue for Hebrews and there's some scholars who do the guy was a gunner for the
53:23
gospel. He was also the most anti gospel persecutor there was in those days. So I just wish my uncle
53:32
would repent for real and not keep going like second Peter to go to verses 22 and 23 there at the
53:39
end of the chapter. Like a like a sow who just finished getting washed. Peter says, but goes back
53:47
in the mud like a dog returning to its vomit. That's a proverb. That's Peter's quote, not costes.
53:52
So it is they will go back to their, their slop and their filth. He keeps going back. A lot
53:58
of false teachers do they repent. I'm sorry. I'm sorry they get their donors back. They go right
54:03
back to it. I want him to repent and turn for real. And that's what I would say to him. Cameras off.
54:09
And it's what I've begged from other family members and what I'll keep preaching. But man,
54:14
I love him. If he dies in his in unrepentant false teaching, I'll I'll ball my eyes out. I won't
54:20
rejoice. That's that's a terrible day. So I pray he repents. He's still breathing. Let's go.
54:25
Well, I certainly hope that you get that opportunity at some point. Sometimes you do get that poetic
54:31
convergence of stories and of people. But a lot of times you don't. That's why Hollywood stories
54:36
are our Hollywood stories because a lot of lives don't really end up that way. But certainly we can
54:41
all pray for that. But you said something throughout that costume. So we'll shift off of your family
54:45
just a little bit before we shift into your new book. You know, there's a lot of people that want
54:48
heretics to burn. And so for people that have followed my ministry for any length of time,
54:53
they're very aware of what I've come to in terms of my understanding of Andy Stanley.
54:57
And so for those of you that are new to the show, because we get new listeners every week,
55:01
we're very, very thankful for you. Back in the day, I was a huge Andy Stanley guy. I was attending
55:06
live church at the time with Craig Rochelle. And they did this thing over 10 years ago.
55:11
And Andy Stanley was brought into guest preach. And I'm like, oh my gosh, he's a spectacular
55:16
preacher. And you know, I was a presenter in college. That's kind of what my degree program was,
55:20
you know, around in my MBA was very presentation heavy as well. And I'm like, oh, he's such a master
55:24
with words. Followed his ministry. I mean, every week, Caucy, I would watch his sermons and I'm
55:29
taking notes, right? And I'm just taking notes on his sermons. And I was wishing he was my pastor
55:33
in Bay should we move to Georgia and like those types of things, right? And then I started to see
55:38
some of the cracks. And I started to re listen to some of the sermons that I had listened to just
55:43
in previous years. And I'm like, wait a minute. And then he's talking about unhitching from the
55:49
Old Testament. And he did this debate on Justin Briarly show, Justin Briarly is a good buddy.
55:53
And him and Jeff Durbin went back and forth. And I just felt like Durbin pants him a little bit.
55:58
And that Andy Stanley just thought he could kind of like, you know, you know, wink his way through
56:03
this thing. And he just got boxed up and down. And then we've come all the way to this moment now,
56:08
where I publicly stated on multiple occasions that Andy Stanley is a heretic that he is a wolf
56:14
and sheep's clothing. And I've gone all the way to this point to questioning publicly. Again,
56:19
he's a public figure. If I knew him personally, I would not have these discussions publicly,
56:22
but I do know it. I don't know him personally. But as a public figure, I'm wondering whether or not
56:27
he was ever a Christian. And the reason why I say that is because if if I'm right, and he is a
56:33
heretic, and he is a wolf and she's clothing, and he is leading his congregation, you know,
56:38
to hell in a way, then let's go back to his first big break. His first big break was
56:44
Charles Stanley. But let's say Charles Stanley wasn't, you know, a mega pastor, let's say Charles
56:48
Stanley was a, you know, a CEO at Ford Motor Company. Okay, well, then Andy Stanley would have been a
56:53
C suite guy, a COO, a chief operating guy, a chief executive officer. Let's say, you know,
56:59
Charles Stanley was the, you know, the general manager of the Arizona Diamondbacks. Okay. And
57:04
then like now he's using all those skill sets and intellect and speaking skills to create,
57:09
you know, baseball teams and 40 man rosters and trying to win World Series. But Charles Stanley
57:14
was a pastor. And so his big break is saying Jesus stuff from on stage. Now I know people get
57:19
really uncomfortable with that because, you know, that's kind of my gripe with John MacArthur is,
57:23
he's like, no one's ever less assured of their salvation than someone who just listens to John
57:28
MacArthur, do a sermon on salvation and assurance of it. Like, no, you're like, Oh crap, my, my
57:32
fruit's not sweet enough. John MacArthur hates me. I'm probably going to hell. But then
57:37
you need to get saved. Right, exactly. But then you have a guy like Andy Stanley that so many people
57:43
listen to him. He has an influence not only of the tens of thousands of people in his direct
57:47
congregation, but their network churches. I've been getting emails from people that have left
57:52
North Point. I read one on my show recently about a family whose child was having a normal, you know,
57:58
pre teen angst about her body changing. And the staff members of the church convinced her that
58:03
she was indeed trans and they started helping her with their transition and they didn't tell her
58:07
parents. And like this whole thing and I'm just like, ah, it's just crazy to me. But then I still
58:13
have those people that are like, Hey, he needs to burn for this no matter what. And then he got
58:18
the people like it's no big deal. But where I've landed cost is if he's not a Christian,
58:22
I need to pray for a salvation. I would pray. I'm praying for the leader of Boko Haram to come to
58:27
faith in Christ. I'm praying for for Andy Stanley that if he's not a believer that he would become
58:31
one, but then right after that, as I'm praying for the leader of Boko Haram to come to Christ,
58:37
I'm also praying if he doesn't, I hope he dies quickly so that he can't hurt any more image
58:42
bears of God. And in Andy Stanley's case, I'm like, if he doesn't become a Christian or repent of
58:46
what he's done to his congregation soon, we should pray that he loses his ministry, not his life,
58:51
not his ability to talk, but somehow sure that he would lose his ministry. But I've been reliably
58:57
informed by dorks on the internet that that's not really the best approach. And that's kind of a
59:00
meanie mean pants way of doing things. So I'm wondering what your perspective as a pastor, author,
59:05
you know, Bible study guy, all those types of things and somebody who has a background and a false
59:09
gospel, what's your read on a situation right now, like what we're seeing with Andy Stanley?
59:13
Look at the Psalms and you'll see imprecatory prayers. What are imprecatory prayers?
59:18
Imprecatory prayers are prayers that are very aggressive and asking for the Lord to do away with
59:23
the wicked, to abolish their wickedness, to end their, in some cases, end their lives, put a stop
59:29
to them, wipe them off the face of the planet, smite them, shut them up. I mean, the imprecatory
59:36
prayers of David are simply saying, I'm not going to kill him. I'm not going to go assault him.
59:40
I'm not going to go on the attack and be ungodly, but I will trust you, sovereign God of heaven and
59:46
earth, whose loving kindness never fails, and whose loving kindness is everlasting, but who is full
59:52
of righteous and holy anger towards wickedness and sin. Do you see what they're doing? End them,
59:59
end them now, silence them and wipe them off the face of the earth. They're doing your people in,
1:00:05
they're doing your servant harm. That is in the Psalms. If that's in the Psalms, what do you do
1:00:11
with that? How do you apply that in the New Covenant? The same way you apply other Psalms. You sing
1:00:16
them, you pray them, you use them. You are relating to the fact that God's character is steadfast and
1:00:24
true, even when we're going through trials and that God will deal with the wicked and we don't
1:00:30
necessarily have to. And what I don't mean by that, don't hear what I'm not saying, is that we just
1:00:35
say nothing, absolutely not. Paul says so many times over that we are to point out error,
1:00:41
that we're to guard the flock, protect the flock, preach the truth, preach the word, rebuke,
1:00:46
reprove, exhort. There's no model in the New Testament church for not calling out false teaching.
1:00:51
Paul names names and you have the book of Jude, which is devoted entirely to calling out apostasy.
1:00:59
So there's not a single ounce of evidence in the New Testament that we just sit around and say
1:01:03
nothing, but we do have imprecatory Psalms that help us see we can go to God and pray for that.
1:01:10
Absolutely. People will say all the time, maybe you are building this podcaster, you've built
1:01:16
your ministry, your platform on attacking, whatever, or this, all that. People say the same thing
1:01:20
about me. They're like, oh, your claim to fame is, you know, you've built this whole thing on your
1:01:23
uncle Benny. I'll tell you this. There are members of our church every Sunday. There are worshipers
1:01:29
gathering here in Arizona. There's a church that's growing and thriving and exploding in all the
1:01:33
right ways with spiritual fervency for the glory of God and they pursue souls and evangelize the lost.
1:01:39
They are not there. Me being Benny Hinn's nephews, not enough. Me attacking false teaching. It's not
1:01:46
enough. It's the word of God that builds the church. And so here's what I would say. The bottom line
1:01:51
is you've got to keep preaching the truth and you've got to keep calling out air and you've got
1:01:55
to keep warning. And one of the gas light strategies of Satan is to get God's servants to shut up
1:02:02
through false accusation and slanderous attacks and people misappropriating what we're doing or
1:02:11
impugning our motives. And so I would say this, you ought to. It is good to pray for God to either
1:02:18
save them or end them. Either turn them or change them or change them. It's kind of the way that
1:02:24
I would describe it. Change them inside or change them. Get them out of there. I do rejoice and I
1:02:29
would rejoice if someone like TD Jakes was done for. I would not, not dead, but done for in his
1:02:37
ministry and his blasphemies and all of the chaos and it's stuff starting to leak out and
1:02:41
here and there and everywhere. It would be thrilling to see Andy Stanley out of ministry
1:02:46
brought to his knees rock bottom so that he might repent of his blasphemies and what he has said
1:02:52
about the word of God and how he has been a stain on the church and a thorn in the church's side. I
1:02:58
would love for my uncle to have to fold. I would love for the feds to do an investigation and
1:03:04
for him to have to file bankruptcy and then see God has brought you down. And here's what I would
1:03:11
say. That's like Hebrews discipline. You know when the Bible says that discipline is good for the
1:03:17
Father, our Father in heaven, disciplines his children he loves. So the question is this,
1:03:21
if God's not disciplining these men and women by the way, does he love them? It is a grace gift
1:03:29
when God exposes and brings down a man or a woman and they repent. I know that hurts,
1:03:36
it stinks, but that is a good thing. If he leaves them to this, is it the Romans one where they've
1:03:42
been given over? Man, that remains to be seen, but I'll tell you this, I would never slow down
1:03:50
because of some online slander. People can say whatever they want. Bottom line is you preach the
1:03:55
truth, refute error, and go after those who are going after the sheep in the wrong ways. Last thing
1:04:00
I'll say is this, public blasphemy and public divergence from the truth deserves rightfully so
1:04:11
public recognition and public rebuttal. So when false teachers do what they do, we don't have to
1:04:20
go and chase them down. And if I can't get to Andy's office, I'm not allowed to say anything.
1:04:27
If he gets on media platforms and his team spreads that filth and that vile blasphemy,
1:04:34
guess what? It's going to come back, Adam and five ways from Sunday. And I would say this,
1:04:40
the media world we live in is a blessing and a curse. It can be distracting and it could be
1:04:44
intoxicating and you could have people obsessed with it and you'd have people that think that's
1:04:48
everything. It is also a blessing. You can now utilize media the same way that false teachers have
1:04:56
and infiltrate and be putting stuff out where someone's down the rabbit hole on YouTube at 3 AM
1:05:01
listening to your show, your asleep, and God's using that to pull. That's what helped me. I used
1:05:07
to stay up and watch stuff on YouTube till 2, 3 in the morning being like, "What in the world?"
1:05:12
And of course, I'd wake up like at 6 AM ready for war and, you know, they're all false. I'm going to
1:05:18
and you got to learn it was, you know, cage stage. You got to like chill and be cased for a little
1:05:23
while before you burn everything down. But as the Lord sanctifies that and He trains us to be
1:05:29
strong but under control, He is not seeking to put out the flame. He's just going to shape and
1:05:37
channel where you send it. So keep on going, man. And God will save people, but there'll always be
1:05:43
some heckler, you know, that the enemy's trying to use to shut you out. I mean, really, there's no
1:05:47
slow down in my style. And so whenever I get a negative piece of feedback, the thing I tell
1:05:51
people all the time is if I've said something that is inaccurate or turns out to be inaccurate,
1:05:56
like I would love to correct the record. Like, obviously, if I said something that I because I
1:06:01
don't say things that I know to be false, but I've said things that have ended up being false. And
1:06:04
it's like, Oh, shoot. Yeah, bring that to my attention. But if you don't like how I went about my
1:06:09
business and if you don't like the tone of my voice or the shape of my face as the words are
1:06:12
coming out of the face hole, all I'm going to do is very politely invite you to no longer listen to
1:06:18
my show. There are six and a half million ish shows and on, you know, podcast, that is a number
1:06:24
that grows every single day because the barrier to entry to becoming a podcaster is a microphone
1:06:28
that has, you know, hooks up to a computer with an internet connection. And so I'm like,
1:06:32
that's totally fine. Like, I'm obviously finning you and your your delicate sensibilities with the way
1:06:37
that I'm approaching things. Like, just don't let me do that anymore. Like, you know, what happens
1:06:41
whenever I listen to a band's music that sucks. I don't listen to their music anymore. And it makes
1:06:46
my life better because then I'm looking for music or relissing to music that I don't think sucks.
1:06:51
And I put that into my ears and then I have a better time. And so, yeah, I don't go around. I'm
1:06:57
not a heresy hunter. Like, I am not a ministry that is looking that can't wait, just can't wait for
1:07:02
that next mega church pastor to fall. I don't want them to fall. I want them to lead people to Christ.
1:07:07
I take the writer of Hebrew seriously, when he says that all pastors are going to have to give
1:07:10
an account someday for how they've shepherded a flock. The listeners of undaunted life are not
1:07:14
a flock, but I am going to have to give an account for the words that I've said for the truth that
1:07:18
I've spread and for the gospel and not my version of the gospel or the Christ that I see that some
1:07:23
sort of vague version of me, but the real truth and the real Christ. And so, we could keep going on
1:07:29
and on, but we're we're somewhat running out of time. We haven't even got down to business because
1:07:33
the business, the order of business today is we're supposed to be talking about this new book because
1:07:37
guys, I know, I know, but we've got this new book that you got and you got to sell books so that the
1:07:42
publisher is happy. So publisher, look, here's the book. It's a nice book. I read it from cover
1:07:46
to cover, but the name of the book is walking and God's will, demystifying God's plan for your life
1:07:51
and making decisions with confidence. Okay. And so, you've done books where you've kind of detailed
1:07:57
pulling yourself out or God pulling you out of the prosperity gospel, you've kind of done of
1:08:01
all those different things. And this is just kind of a practical book to where it's like, okay,
1:08:04
you're a Christian, you're fervently seeking after the Lord, you're trying to make decisions,
1:08:09
duh. And then you just get stuck, right? And so there's a short quote from the book here. I've
1:08:13
written this book because in the midst of that uncertainty, God has given us a way to build
1:08:18
confidence. So why this book? Why now? Why you? Pastor Lee, I encounter a lot of different
1:08:25
questions. One of the number one questions is, costy, what should I do with this? And then just
1:08:31
insert in the blank the situation. What decision should I make? How should I enter this relationship?
1:08:36
Should I date this person, marry this person, take this job? A big one now thing that we deal with
1:08:42
with a lot of folks is, hey, is it a sin for me to want to move out to the country, have five
1:08:46
acres, raise chickens and like do my thing? Am I a sin? Are the real Christians, you know, moving
1:08:52
into California to like take it over? Or are the real Christians leaving? How about neither?
1:08:59
The real Christians are going to do what we should do and bloom where they're planted. And
1:09:02
like Jim Elliot said, wherever you are, be all there. There's there's a lot of things God's given
1:09:07
people permission to do. But I just see people so crippled. And then, you know, hindsight's 2020. So
1:09:12
people look back on their past and they think, Oh, I should have could have would have this. I
1:09:17
should have that. Did I miss God's will? All of that. And I'll just tell you that breaks my heart
1:09:22
pastorally. When people are not confident in the decisions they're making, not cocky,
1:09:27
like we're never going to make a mistake. Look at us. Or we've never made a mistake.
1:09:32
But confident, the confidence to know I've made decisions through a biblical framework.
1:09:37
I've sought wise counsel. I've prayed. I'm not being prideful and arrogant. I'm thinking through
1:09:43
these things. So whatever I experienced at the end of this road or this decision, if I get a
1:09:48
cancer diagnosis, if I have a prodigal child, if something doesn't go the way I planned,
1:09:53
I don't need to say, Oh, I guess we weren't. We never should have moved here. No, you can move
1:09:57
anywhere you want. You moved to Seattle, Oregon, LA, Tennessee, Florida, or Canada, if you want.
1:10:04
And guess what? Trials are going to happen. All who desire to live Godly in Christ Jesus will be
1:10:10
persecuted. Like God's not up in heaven, just pounding you because you chose to go live in a
1:10:14
different state. Which car should I do and drive and what so many people get crippled. I think by
1:10:21
fear, doubt, paralysis by analysis, they're overthinking. And today, one of the things with Gen Z that
1:10:28
we're seeing a ton is the inability to make decisions. It's because social media, you have to call
1:10:34
on the desk. Yeah. Dude. And then social media has been their parent and their parent is schizophrenic
1:10:39
and they scroll once and they're quote unquote mom or dad on social media, pump this and the next
1:10:44
scroll is something else saying the opposite or like, which is it? So I wanted to write something
1:10:49
that would be a handbook for decision making with also a theology like it's not boring. It's an
1:10:55
everyday language like Bible teaching with good, clear stories and examples and applications of how
1:11:00
the Bible actually gives you everything you need to make decisions with confidence. And even though
1:11:06
it won't tell you how to do heart surgery or change your oil, it'll inform you the kind of
1:11:10
person you should be and the wisdom you can operate in in the midst of doing heart surgery or changing
1:11:15
your oil. For sure. What college should I go to? Well, maybe God doesn't care if it was, you know,
1:11:22
Stanford or Yale, it's more about the kind of person you are in the midst of going to Stanford
1:11:27
or Yale. Well, does God want me to take this job or that job? Well, when a certain amount of
1:11:31
priorities are in order, what if there are certain things you can look at and decide on and whichever
1:11:39
one God will bless you and you're going and in your coming, he'll bless you there or there. It's
1:11:43
just who are you in the midst of that? And so I wanted to really just write something that would
1:11:48
minister to folks and give them something clear and practical. And our church has been blessed by
1:11:53
it. We I wrote it because of one of our pastors and the prayer director was I do write the book
1:11:58
on God's will that would be really helpful. And out of that ministry locally, thankful that
1:12:04
people have been able to be helped by the writing. You see, guys, all you got to do is buy a book
1:12:07
from Zondervin and you'll figure out God's will. Boom, it's right here. It's in the show notes. You
1:12:10
should go buy it. But no, my good buddy, pastor, Joey Martin, church of 1122 out of Jacksonville,
1:12:15
he always tells people, Hey, pray, guest, go, like pray. Okay, I, yeah, this is what I got
1:12:23
if I were to guess, I think this is what you're telling me to do. And then go, you have to have
1:12:26
action. And the thing that I use is because, you know, we got a lot outdoors, but in people that
1:12:31
do things, I think everybody at this point that's been anytime outdoors has traversed a trail
1:12:35
with a crappy flashlight at night. Okay, or a crappy headlamp that's going out. And so the
1:12:39
problem with that thing is when you've got the crappy flashlight and you point it up the trail,
1:12:44
you can kind of see what the path looks like. Hey, I think it kind of bends to the left and then
1:12:49
goes back up to the right. Okay, that looks to be water to the side. Okay, that's a rock. Might be
1:12:53
a bear. We'll figure it out when we get there. But when you point that same flashlight at your feet,
1:12:58
you can clearly see the next step. And then the next step after that. And then the next step after
1:13:03
that. But we don't want the word to be a lamp unto our feet. We want our word to be a floodlight
1:13:08
that lights the entire past so that we can see God's vision for everything right now. But it's like,
1:13:12
if you could handle God's vision for your life right now, well, let me give you a spoiler alert.
1:13:16
You can't, right? Or there would be some way shape or form that he would just hand it to you on a
1:13:21
silver platter. But that's just not the life that we have right now. So we don't have a ton of time,
1:13:25
but I do want to I want to get into a couple of different things from the scripture or from the
1:13:29
from the book here. So one of the things that you talk about is this concept of kind of, you know,
1:13:34
the author of evil. This is a complaint from some people or an objection from some people,
1:13:38
and they will specifically talk about this in the way of Calvinism and tulip. I've heard Frank
1:13:42
Turks say that before, like, if you believe in that, you may God the author of evil. I've heard
1:13:45
that and I've heard the arguments from both sides of me and I've been waiting into those arguments
1:13:48
for hours and hours and hours. And you give it a good amount of space in your book, but you're
1:13:52
describing the Decreative Will of God. That's D E C R E T I V E, the Decreative Will of God.
1:13:59
You spend quite a bit of time with this statement. It doesn't make God the author of sin and evil.
1:14:05
And then you spend some time talking about what God permits versus what God ordains.
1:14:11
And I got to tell you, sometimes I feel like my personal intellect, if it were, you know,
1:14:15
energy, it would not be able to power a small light bulb for 30 seconds. And so like I'm reading
1:14:21
the section, I'm like, okay, I know what he's trying to say, but help me. And so now you're here
1:14:26
in front of me. So help me and then help the rest of my audience with, okay, how's God the author
1:14:31
of evil? How is he not the author of evil? What's the difference between what God permits and what
1:14:34
he ordains? Ready to go. Yeah. So first of all, God being holy in his nature, he cannot be the
1:14:41
author and the origin of evil. It's impossible. He cannot be. God can and does allow certain things,
1:14:48
but that doesn't make him the author of it and the origin of it. I do understand that there will
1:14:53
always be kind of the what came first chicken or the egg. Is it God's sovereignty or man's
1:14:59
responsibility? It's like, yes, Spurgeon said, how do you reconcile those two things? And, you know,
1:15:05
when someone asked him that he said, I never try to reconcile two friends, where those lines
1:15:10
intersect on the other side of eternity, I don't know, but I know that God is sovereign and man
1:15:14
is responsible. And so in that regard, God is sovereign and yet his nature being perfect and
1:15:20
holy can't make him the author of evil. And here's the deal. I think that Johnny Eric
1:15:25
Sintada has said it best when she says God will allow what he hates to accomplish what he loves.
1:15:32
God through whatever means that he ordains. Kenan does purpose bring purpose to what evil is trying
1:15:42
to accomplish. We've said it this way before with folks that God will bring purpose to your
1:15:48
pain. And he will. He didn't necessarily cause the cancer. He didn't say, I'm going to give you
1:15:53
cancer. But God might allow it and in that will use the cancer, use the situation to make you a
1:16:02
light for the gospel in the sense of your chemo treatments are opening up opportunities for you
1:16:07
to share the gospel. And I think for us as believers, our job is not to try to figure everything out
1:16:13
and comprehend everything God is doing and say, okay, so you did this and you caused that and then
1:16:17
you did this and you ordained that. And then you allowed that. And therefore, I think that's way
1:16:22
too controlling. And that would be my issue. Maybe it's yours. I just, I want to know everything. I
1:16:26
want to comprehend everything. I want to control it all. And in the end, the prophet Isaiah says,
1:16:31
God's ways are above our ways, his thoughts are above our thoughts. And I don't know if someone is a
1:16:35
Job where God is allowing them to be sifted in order to further prove their faith and make them a
1:16:42
beacon for his gospel. I don't know. I don't know why God decided and chose and ordained and allowed
1:16:49
all of those different things in my own life. Why me? Why not save my uncle? Why not go right
1:16:54
for the top? Why little why me? I'm like, I'm down the wrong, like who am even I? Why did he allow
1:17:00
you to have a ministry? Why did he allow our church plan to work? Why does it seem that he has ordained
1:17:05
certain things that are so definitive? And I can look and go, I can't even imagine my life differently.
1:17:11
Why did out of all of the pregnancies you experienced with your wife or me with mine? Why two miscarriages,
1:17:20
six births, which one what? And in the end, I can say this that I know Psalm 115 103,
1:17:27
our God is in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases. I know that God will decree and ordain
1:17:34
certain things. And there are a lot of things we're not going to know. And my case in that section
1:17:39
even is to relieve people of this burden, whether you are a Calvinist or an Arminian, whether you are
1:17:46
like tulip to the hill and it's John Piper or bust or you're like, you know, Calvinists or heretics.
1:17:51
What look, just relieving people of the burden to have to know it all and predict it all and figure
1:17:58
out, look, God has decreed certain things. You and I will not know. Deuteronomy 29, 29, the secret
1:18:03
things belong to our God. You're not going to know when Jesus is going to return. I don't
1:18:06
care how many times some weirdo gets on TBN or whatever and predicts it. You aren't going to know
1:18:11
how long you'll live. Will your children live or die? What tomorrow holds? The Bible actually
1:18:16
speaks more to humility about saying, if the Lord wills, we will this that or the other.
1:18:21
That's one. But we have God's revealed will as well. And so I don't want people crippled with the
1:18:28
idea that they can predict. Like God did that. He gave you that cancer. So it's just for his glory,
1:18:34
like some sadistic cosmic abuser at the same time, the idea that my father in heaven is detached
1:18:40
from my cancer diagnosis or my miscarriage or my unjust firing. The idea that God is not near
1:18:50
and he's not involved would be the idea of open theism that he just sort of set it and forget it
1:18:55
and it just all unfolds. And he's like up there sort of reacting going, Oh, I didn't see that coming.
1:19:00
I do think there's an element of God that we will not understand until glory because he's
1:19:05
God and we're not. So my case in that section is to help people see God has a decreed will.
1:19:12
He will accomplish things as he has decreed and determined just like he accomplished redemption
1:19:18
through Christ. We had nothing to do with that. So like we concocted that he did. At the same time,
1:19:24
he has revealed things when Calvinistic types and I would lean. I'm in that world. I'm reformed
1:19:31
dish. I call myself because I'm not like a fatal Baptist capital are reformed, but where I'm baptizing
1:19:36
the babies and we got robes and liturgies. But I would say as a guy who believes completely in the
1:19:41
outright initiating sovereignty of God over all things, I still understand theologically that I
1:19:48
can and you can resist the will of God and like freak out types, you know, Calvinistic hyper types
1:19:54
are like, no, like, yes, realize this, when you disobey the word of God, you're disobeying the will
1:20:00
of God. Therefore, you are resisting the will of God. What is that is revealed will. And there's
1:20:05
a difference not in the heavenly realms. God's will is his will. But as we see it, there's God's
1:20:12
decreed will his sovereign. Well, there's things he's going to do. We're not going to understand.
1:20:15
And there's also things we don't have to worry about because he's got it. And then there's his
1:20:19
revealed will, which is his commands, his precepts, his prohibitions, his ordinances. And in that,
1:20:25
absolutely, people can outright reject God and they do. So I really want to help people understand,
1:20:33
like, did God send Johnny Eric Sintada off the cliff and into the rocks and break her neck and
1:20:41
make her a quadriplegic. I don't think that God shoved her down there and made sure that
1:20:47
she was paralyzed for life. But I do believe that God could have intervened. He did not. He allowed
1:20:53
it, but he also allowed her to live. And he's chosen to use her life as an example of how someone
1:21:00
could not get their healing yet, not even be able to use their really their arms much and much as
1:21:05
and yet bring much glory to his name. And in that, those of us with functioning capable bodies,
1:21:11
would say how much more ought we do for the sake of the gospel. And she as someone who could be
1:21:16
bitter at God has chosen to say, he will allow what he hates. He hates my wheelchair. He hates
1:21:22
my paralysis. He hates the fact that I have gone through. He hates sin and he hates the broken,
1:21:27
fallen world that has caused this. But he will allow what he hates to accomplish what he loves.
1:21:34
What does he love? Sanctification, my holiness perspective. People who will have faith in him,
1:21:39
no matter what they, he loves the Job whose wife says, curse God and die. And he says,
1:21:46
the Lord gives and the Lord take it the way. Blessed be the name of the Lord. I'll never curse my God.
1:21:51
So I do think there's a middle ground there where Calvinists and Armenians probably have a lot to
1:21:57
to praise God for and be humble about. And then I do think you could, you know, the debate of like,
1:22:03
well, which is it the philosophical? Frank Turk is way smarter than I am. So I don't even, I don't
1:22:08
even wait in those waters attempting to say, I'm right about this. And he's wrong. I would just say,
1:22:12
I have a view, I believe that is, is through the lens of scripture. And there are difficult things
1:22:18
though that we all have to say. I just don't know how all that reconciles, but God will one day.
1:22:23
When you find yourself in a precarious position, when you're looking at something that happens,
1:22:27
whether it's a four year old dying of cancer or a tsunami wiping out, you know, four villages
1:22:33
and say that I know that this couldn't possibly be used for anything other than negative evil.
1:22:38
And the result can't be anything other than negative and evil. And I'm just not willing to
1:22:42
put myself in that position. And man, doing this ministry, if I'm here to equipment to push back
1:22:47
darkness, which is our mission, well, I have to wait into some pretty dark places. Because if I
1:22:51
can't tell guys how to recognize it, it's going to be hard to push it back. If you just start like
1:22:54
pushing your palms out into the ether. So we got time for probably one more question. This is not
1:22:58
a soft place to land. I'll just tell you that much from the beginning. But one of the negative aspects
1:23:02
about it's not negative. It's just a weightier aspect about what I do is guys will offload their
1:23:08
problems on to me because they've listened to me for hundreds of hours. They feel like they know
1:23:11
me, they feel like they trust me. And so they'll send me these emails, they'll pour their hearts out,
1:23:14
come up to me and talk to me after a speaking engagement. It's just like yikes. And so adultery
1:23:19
has been a big thing. There have been men that have cheated on their wives. There have been men
1:23:22
who have been cheated on. There have been men who was the man that the woman used to cheat on her
1:23:27
husband. There's all kinds of stuff that I've been exposed to. And you have a fairly lengthy
1:23:31
quote that I want to read from the book and I want to get your feedback on it before we let you
1:23:34
out of here. For example, someone may feel remorse after being caught in adultery because of the
1:23:39
consequences of their actions, but they make excuses to attempt to justify their behavior.
1:23:43
Remorse causes people to feel bad about how others will view them. Remorse leads them to feel
1:23:47
distressed because they ruin their marriages and disappointed their children. But remorse does not
1:23:51
lead to a change of mind. Often people who are remorseful go back to their sinful behaviors once
1:23:56
the emotions and the turmoil of getting caught die down. Repentance on the other hand is a total
1:24:02
change of mind, whether you're caught in your sin or not. Repentance is a piercing feeling in
1:24:06
your heart that you have sinned against God and you no longer want to. Repentance is not merely the
1:24:11
fear of being caught in sin. It is the hatred of your sin accompanied by a change of mind.
1:24:15
The repentant person sees their sin in a new light and is resolved to fight it, hate it,
1:24:18
and embrace the grace of God. The repentant person doesn't care about pleasing people,
1:24:23
but rather wants to please Jesus Christ. I was doing a coaching call with a guy last week,
1:24:29
and he found himself on the wrong end of adultery. It was the worst case scenario where she's the
1:24:36
one that has the adultery. There's a no fault divorce state, so she not only gets to have the
1:24:43
extramarital fun, but she also gets the kids and the money and everything else and the sky just
1:24:47
left right there. He has not forgiven this woman. He has not really gone there, and she is not
1:24:54
repentant nor more remorseful. What I counseled him to do is the same thing that I've heard other
1:25:01
people be counseled to do, which is forgiveness is a decision, not a feeling. You're not going
1:25:06
to feel like forgiving your father for what he did. You're not going to feel like forgiving your
1:25:10
boss for treating you that way, but that's not up to you. You decide to do it. You follow through,
1:25:15
and you don't forgive and forget. That's dumb. You forgive and remember. That's point
1:25:20
J.B. Martin made in one of his books. You forgive and remember, and the remember is the sacrifice
1:25:24
that Jesus made on the cross for you because he didn't hold against you how stupid and ridiculous
1:25:28
you are. What is your advice to somebody that is either post-marriage or still in a marriage where
1:25:35
the ultimate atomic bomb has been dropped on the marriage, the covenant has been broken.
1:25:40
Maybe they're trying to stick it out, or maybe they're trying to figure out what life looks like
1:25:45
afterwards, but the person is either neither remorseful nor repentant or maybe they're remorseful,
1:25:50
but clearly not repentant is non-repentance a signal of maybe this person isn't even saved.
1:25:56
How would you counsel that person? Yes. A lot of the things you've said are true and should be
1:26:00
discussed. I will start with this. This is not the only reason why, but it's one of the great
1:26:06
examples or great illustrations of why men should be. They must be in the local church. You've got
1:26:12
to have your soul cared for. You've got to have pastors. You've got to have elders that are in
1:26:17
your mix and in your corner. You've got to have men who are discipling. I'm not saying that
1:26:21
what you do, Kyle, is obsolete. I know that you love the local church and what you're doing and
1:26:26
what we do it for the gospel. Even as a pastor, I have a media ministry that is a
1:26:30
coming alongside pair of churches to come alongside. I'm just trying to help and bring value.
1:26:35
In that regard, you've got to have the local church because you've got to be able to sit down and
1:26:41
wrestle through these things with people who know you and care about your soul. In that,
1:26:45
let me segue then to yes to everything you said. We've got to forgive forgiveness. We often say
1:26:53
this. I did a series on forgiveness on my podcast and said forgiveness takes one. Reconciliation
1:26:59
takes two. Forgiveness by definition is a release. It's a number of things. It's a choice, as you
1:27:04
said. It's a release. It's releasing them from you saying, I'm not doing it. It's God who will deal
1:27:08
with him, but it's not validating what they've done, excusing what they've done, forgetting what
1:27:14
they've done, but forgiveness takes one. I can forgive someone regardless of if they say sorry or not.
1:27:20
Why? Because by definition, it's a release. I could say, I release you. I forgive you. I'm not
1:27:26
going to hold this. It doesn't mean there won't be boundaries, barriers, or consequences, but
1:27:30
reconciliation has to take two. Another person has to repent. We have to come to an agreement of
1:27:35
the wrong and in the forgiveness, there's reconciliation. You think about that? Jesus. Father, forgive
1:27:42
them. They know not what they've done. Had they all repented yet? No. Forgiveness takes one. Reconciliation
1:27:49
takes two. In that regard, if you're not seeing repentance from the other party,
1:27:55
number one, they could have a calloused heart in this season because the sin has gone on for a
1:28:00
long time. Our consciences get seared and that could take some counseling. It could take some
1:28:05
appeals. That's why church discipline, Matthew 18, is really clear. When we're part of a local
1:28:10
church, somebody's going to confront our sin. And then if they're resistant, or rather if the
1:28:15
the sinner is resistant, you bring two or three, right? We have witnesses. We confirm every fact.
1:28:20
Now a small group of people are pursuing us. And if we're still telling them to kick rocks,
1:28:24
what does it say? Well, you're getting church disciplined. It's tell it to the church. Hey,
1:28:29
you're out. We're going to treat you like a tax gatherer or a pagan, a Gentile. Why?
1:28:35
Because you're proving not to be a believer. And there is that element of
1:28:39
in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, like, hey, you need to put the wicked man out from among you.
1:28:45
Remember 1 Corinthians 5? He's like, dude, we judge within the church. We start with the household
1:28:50
of God. If you're claiming faith, if you think you're going to heaven, but you're living like hell,
1:28:55
like we're going to have a conversation about that and you're going to be called to the mat.
1:28:58
If you tell us all kick rocks, we're going to evangelize you because you're clearly acting
1:29:03
like a pagan and you're not bearing fruit. So I'm preaching on Sunday, we're in the gospel of Matthew.
1:29:09
Good tree doesn't produce bad fruit. A bad tree doesn't produce good fruit.
1:29:13
Jesus says you'll know them by their fruits. It's an absolute. There's two paths, two ways,
1:29:19
two kinds of trees. And so in that, that's where it gets heartbreaking is because you start praying
1:29:25
for their soul, not merely forgiveness and reconciliation. You're praying that they aren't on the pathway
1:29:31
to hell. So I would encourage guys, gals, be in the local church. Also discern, try your best to
1:29:38
discern by way of scripture. What are you dealing with? Are you dealing with a repentant believer
1:29:43
who really made a mistake? And I'm not saying adultery is like oopsies. You don't oopsies,
1:29:48
the texts, driving over there, taking off your clothes. We've talked to people before that are
1:29:53
like, yeah, it just happened, man. I don't even know how to happen. I'm like, got it. So you drove,
1:29:57
you parked, you had to like take your shoes off, your belt off, you sent messages, you DM,
1:30:02
you sex did like this. This isn't like oopsies. Oopsies is like you lost your temper and you
1:30:08
didn't control your emotions in a moment because some guy was popping off. That's oopsies. Adultery
1:30:13
is a very premeditated sin. That's why the New Testament is so strong against sexual sin
1:30:19
because it's something that breeds in the heart and lust where you have to deal with it is right
1:30:23
here. If you let it fester, it bears its ugly fruit. So in all of that, people need counsel,
1:30:30
they need discipleship and they need to dig in on these things. And if someone is proving to be an
1:30:35
unbeliever, it's a rough road. And so I would encourage brothers if you're on the receiving end
1:30:42
of that sin and you're the one getting cheated on and gotten cheated on, seek the
1:30:49
band of brothers in the church, not outside though either. Careful that you don't allow
1:30:54
pagan, unbelieving voices to get in there and start telling you things that men tell you
1:31:01
when they're not in Christ. And if you're a woman and you're one of the five percent or so
1:31:06
of these ladies who listen to Kyle's podcast and are blessed by it and encouraged to,
1:31:10
and you're on the other end of that, plead for his soul, plead for repentance and bring him in,
1:31:17
bring him in with the elders and talk. And if he just proves to not care,
1:31:21
then the church rallies around you. But if there is repentance, genuine repentance,
1:31:25
and in any case that we're able, we want to see marriages restored. Do I know and see cases
1:31:32
in our ministry in different places where divorce does happen and it's the biblically allowable
1:31:37
wincing option? Of course. Jesus said that. There will be from adultery in that standpoint,
1:31:45
there can be divorce, but we're not quick trigger going, yeah, dump them. Dumper. We want to see
1:31:52
repentance, forgiveness, and restoration every case we can, but there will be times where,
1:31:57
as John said, they went out from among us in 1 John 2 19 because they were never really of us.
1:32:03
They were faking it. They were tears amongst the wheat. They were, as Jesus said, Lord,
1:32:08
Lord, yeah, no, I don't even know who you are. So we want to think through that lens as well.
1:32:13
And just know I'm, I'm with you, brothers. I get it. It's painful. And that's why the Bible
1:32:18
speaks extensively against sexual immorality because it destroys lives, children and futures,
1:32:23
but God's grace can redeem. Well, Kosti, I appreciate that answer. And I got to tell you,
1:32:27
I got more questions, but we are out of time. So that is, that just means I'll have to ask you
1:32:32
these questions at a later date. So keep writing books, keep, you know, jabbering, keep saying
1:32:36
things out loud to people in the public. And I'll just keep having you on next time. We'll get you
1:32:39
in studio though. But that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:32:43
No, bro, I'm grateful for you. Keep up the good work. And thanks for validating me with some of
1:32:47
my buddies who will probably think I'm, they won't think I'm cool. But at least I did something
1:32:51
half decent because they looked into your stuff. Hey, I'll send you a hat and like a hand-written
1:32:55
note. So you can just like put it in their face and be like, ah, losers. All right, Kosti,
1:32:58
we'll talk again soon. Thanks, bro. Keep it up. There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my
1:33:04
time with Kosti. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at a
1:33:07
dawn to life or mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges,
1:33:10
spiritual, mental and physical resilience. So I've got two links for you today. I've got a link to
1:33:13
For the gospel. That's his pair of church ministry. So you guys can check out the work that they do.
1:33:17
And I've got an Amazon link to walking and God's will. So you can pick it up for yourself.
1:33:21
Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe,
1:33:25
rate and leave us a positive five star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event
1:33:29
or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undonton.life. That's i-n-f-o at undonton.life.
1:33:35
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,
1:33:39
including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undonton.life.
1:33:44
And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our
1:33:47
content. The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut
1:33:52
album on Face Down Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:33:57
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:34:04
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:34:34
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