CLARE MORELL | The Tech Exit (Ep. 845)

[Music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys. We got a special guest on the podcast today. Her name is Claire Morurell. She's an author and public policy expert and she is a fellow at the ethics and public policy center and the director of its technology in human flourishing project. So her work has actually been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Fox News, the New York Post, National Review, The Federalist, and a bunch of other places. And she consults legislators on technology policy and has helped draft legislation to protect children online. And so our discussion today was centered around her book called The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. And the discussion today really had a lot to do with like, okay, there's a lot of confusion out there about what's going on with screens, what's going on with social media, but most parents for the most part feel like, well, that's just kind of the way it is, and so we're just going to do our best. And so in this discussion today, we talk about, you know, how she got into public policy. But also, what what's the deal with smartphones and and children? Why screen time limits aren't working, why parental controls that come with social media and different things, they're a myth that they basically don't do anything, they don't work. how social media exacerbates issues with predators seeking children online and then what p families can do if they need to kind of take a screen detox or or different things like that. But there's a lot of practical knowledge in here about okay this is what you think is the problem with the social media and with the smartphones and with the things with your children but it's actually way worse than what you could think. And but she addresses a lot of the uh different objections that may come up about like, well, if my kid doesn't have a smartphone, he'll be the only one and that'll be terrible. Or, you know, my kid's not going to be able to develop technological skills. He's not going to know how to use any of these things. Well, hey, there aren't any other families in in our world that are that are doing this. We don't have alternatives. Hey, my kids got to have an app to get into the locker room at school. So, how in the world is you not supposed to have a smartphone? So, we look at a lot of those different things. And really toward the end, I would definitely stick around toward the end of the interview because we talked about schools. And we talked about getting screens out of schools, specifically smartphones, and how even if your school has a rule where like, okay, we'll do, you know, phones, but they got to stay in your locker. All you're doing is creating a distraction for the entire 50-minute biology class period because your kid just cannot wait to sprint out of the room, get back to their phone, check their text messages, check, you know, any things that are going on in the different apps, check and see if anyone liked their post, and it's a terrible environment for learning. It doesn't keep the kids engaged with what the teacher is teaching. It doesn't keep them engaged with the people around them. And so, we get into a discussion about that. So, guys, I really, really enjoyed my time with her. So, without further ado, let's get into it. Claire Morurell, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast. >> Thanks for having me on. >> Well, I'm going to give everyone a little peak behind the curtain right from the beginning here. So, you did what most, you know, good polite Americans did as soon as you popped on the screen here. You said, "How you doing?" And I was going to give you the normal like, "I'm fine cuz everyone's got finitis here in America." Like, "I'm fine. I'm fine." But I'm not. I'm really, really sick right now. And you go, "Funny story. So am I." So, both of us collectively might have the functioning brain power of one person. So, we're going to do our absolute best here. >> That sounds good. >> All right. Well, we we're having you on today mainly to talk about your book, The Tech Exit. But before we even get there, um it would be safe to say that your career has been in public policy. And even just saying that, people think they know what that means or they never really reckon exactly with what that means. No one knows what you do for a living, Claire. So, how about we start there? And uh how did you get into that type of career? >> No, it's a great question. Yes. And I don't assume that people understand what public policy is. It's kind of a very vague term like what do you even do? What does a think tank in Washington DC do? So the short answer is that we're actually trying to provide research and ideas of solutions that we could see in our laws. So we're trying to work with Congress and with states to change our laws for the better. So that's when we say public policy, we're trying to provide these collective solutions mainly through legal reforms, changes in our laws. And so uh we provide like my role specifically is has been focused on technology and the harms to kids. And so in that space I have been working with lawmakers both in Congress and in the states to propose like here are possible solutions that would really help parents and this is these are changes that we need in the laws. Um so that is what my work has focused on and before I was doing the research I'm doing now at this think tank the ethics and public policy center I was actually working in the government. I was at the Department of Justice and the White House in the last Trump administration and that was my kind of front row seat to understanding how government actually works behind the scenes. Um, how things actually get done and that kind of now informs how I do my policy work kind of from the outside trying to help support our government to do good things to help parents. >> Okay. So, White House DOJ technology kind of bring bring that in. Why why the emphasis specifically on technology and the potential harms therein? >> Yeah, it was actually during my time at the Department of Justice that um this was back in 2019 to 2020. We were really examining the the kind of challenges technology was posing to law enforcement. um the ways that social media platforms were facilitating human trafficking, online child sexual exploitation, drug trafficking, um these crimes that were increasingly happening online or being helped and facilitated by the online platforms, but the challenge of actually holding the platforms accountable for their role um in in that criminal conduct. And um and so that was kind of my first exposure of like, oh, these tech companies are getting away with a lot of things. And under our current legal system, it's very difficult to hold them accountable. Um it all goes back to a law passed in 1996 called section 230, well before uh social media platforms were even on the scene. And so kind of combing through those things from a crime law enforcement perspective, working at the Department of Justice was my first exposure. and and a lot of these crimes were particularly affecting children um sex trafficking and child sexual exploitation online happening um affecting our young people. >> Okay, we're going to be getting into a lot of that as we get into the book, but I am still curious just on the the policy side of things. Obviously, it's hard whenever you talk about something so big as social media because what does that even mean? Cuz when people say social media, some people immediately think Facebook, some people immediately think Snapchat. like it's just a a different you know thing entirely whenever you're talking to particular people but why why would anyone think that there would be wisdom in applying a non-technology based rule right to modern technology which I mean back whenever 230 was enacted there was no such thing as like an algorithm there was not smartphones that would track your eye movements to see how long you lingered on a page much less clicked on a link and so like I guess I'm just wondering because yeah the these entities make a lot of money and thus they donate to political camp campaigns and things like that. But I'm just wondering like where where is the where's the wisdom here? >> Yeah. No, so this is this is the challenge is that the internet has changed vastly since 1996 when that law was passed. And that law was meant to protect kind of third part um you know interactive computer services which at the time were kind of like blogs and almost online bulletin boards um from being held liable for things that were posted to their sites by other people to say like okay this is third party speech it's not your speech so you shouldn't be held liable if there are harms from it but as you just mentioned social media came on the scene I mean this is back like 2006 2007 it really starts taking off and it's it's they have their own product design features like algorithms that are actually promoting certain content or removing certain content. And and so they now we need our laws to be updated to hold them accountable for things that are their own product design features and choices that it's not about oh this is third party content causing this harm but it's their algorithms are are promoting certain kinds of posts and actually helping facilitate in a lot of situations trafficking because that algorithms will recommend to predators the accounts of young children. So there's there's an active role that they're now playing based on how the design of the internet has evolved over time. And so we do need better legal solutions to hold them accountable. Again, not for the content hosted on their sites, but for things that are their own product design, just like any kind of other consumer protection. We hold companies accountable if their products are harming consumers. And we just haven't seen that in the tech space. So they basically had complete impunity for for all these kind of harms that they're causing. one, it's fine if you have complete impunity for something whenever there is a level of control or control mechanisms or if they're an altruistic, you know, morally based organization. But we I think it's safe to say that we we can't really say that for a lot of these organizations because I'm as capitalist as it gets. >> But in your pursuit of more capital, you are providing, you know, you're basically putting children in the machine to like crunch them through. And you know, uh we just basically need to give them the book uh at this point because we we go over a lot of this in the book. The book is called The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. So, I actually want to read a quote to get us started here. I've written this book to show you that another way is possible. Despite real challenges, your family can break out of the screen time trap. I hope to convince you that digital technologies need to be an inevitable need not be an inevitable part of childhood. A different future is possible. It's even possible to reverse course if you've already given your child a smartphone or social media and now regret it. I call this different path the tech exit and this book is my invitation to you to embrace the kind of life you already want for your kids. So let's just start here, Clary. Why this book? Why now? Why you? >> Yeah. So why this book is because in my public policy work, I was often being asked by parents for my personal professional advice on what they should do for their own kids. And my research had convinced me like smartphones and social media are so harmful. Like I will not ever be giving these to my own children. But my kids were young. They were all under the age of four or five at the time. And so I I if I when I offered that answer, parents of teens were like, "Yeah, but you don't understand how hard it is to be the only parent saying like, "My kid can't have a smartphone. Everybody else has one." And so I was convinced that a smartphone free childhood was necessary. From all my research showing me how parental controls, screen time limits, kind of all these methods that were really offered to parents by the tech companies were not sufficient for the harm and how frustrating the experience was for parents of feeling like they were trying to do everything like trying to protect their kids and still allow them to have the screens, trying to manage all these controls. And it was really a lose-lose situation. The controls weren't working. It was extremely frustrating for parents and actually created more friction in the parent child relationship. They kind of thought saying yes to the phone um would kind of reduce all the fighting over let me have a phone and instead it just created 40 more battles a day over all these screen time limits that they were actually trying to enforce. And so I just wanted to answer the question for parents like a smartphone childhood again I was convinced was necessary but was it actually possible? Had people done this? Had people successfully raised their kids even through the teen years and launched them to college free of smartphones and social media? And if so, how had they done that? And I just realized there was no resource out there for parents making that case or showing parents how to do this cuz I was desperately looking for a a book to actually recommend to parents and I could not find one. And so I realized, okay, I actually need to write this book. I want to help parents who are on the front lines parenting in this digital age, which is so challenging. And so I wrote this book to really offer parents actually a message of hope that it's possible to opt out. And so many families have done this. They are flourishing. Their kids are flourishing. It's the best parenting decision they've made. And here is a literal road map to how you can do it too. >> Yeah. It literally reads like a road map and it is help hopeful because you know when you talk to some of these parents, they're literally like despairing, right? Because but these are also parents that are addicted to their smartphones. And so, like, it's so sad when you go to a restaurant and you see an entire family sitting at a table for dinner and every single person at the table, all three kids, mom and dad, they're all on their phones, right? And it's not like they're playing a game against one another or something like that. They're all doing their own separate things. So, they're deeply connected, but just not to real life and each other. And so, I got to, you know, keep myself from getting ahead of myself here. we are actually going to be using kind of the chapter titles to be the scaffolding of our discussion today because the very first chapter you talk about screen time limits aren't working out. And so that's one thing that I've heard is like oh well yeah you get your kid >> this phone but then we're just going to put an app on the phone which limits the amount of app time, screen time, social media time that they get. And you say that that's just not working out. Why is that? >> Oh my goodness, so many reasons. Okay, the first I'll just say is that the design of the smartphone and social media apps are inherently addictive. So they are not meant to be used in moderation. They actually just create a constant craving for more. So even 15 minutes a day on an app, what happens in that 15 minutes is they're getting these constant hits of dopamine, which is a neurotransmitter in the brain, releases a burst of pleasure. But dopamine does not produce lasting satisfaction or fulfillment. it just creates a craving to want to do that thing again. And so even if they're only on for 15 minutes, when they come off the app, their brain goes into a dopamine deficit below the baseline and it creates this constant urging to go back on. And so the time limit is never enough. Like a child's brain can be impacted by that addictive design in just a short amount of time. And so I try to make this analogy to a drug like fentinyl. Even a small amount of fentinyl is extremely addictive. And we've kind of used the wrong analogy when it comes to screens and treated them more like sugar, something okay, you don't want to have that in excess, but can be enjoyed in moderation. But the actual impact on the brain is much more like a highly addictive drug, potent even in small amounts. And it just shows you through the brain science, the brain scans of people who are heavy users of of drugs actually matches what the brains of users of social media look like. The structural changes in the brain look the same because that that neurotransmitter dopamine is involved in both. That is what's being released and actually changes the brain over time. Brain research shows kids become extra sensitive to the kinds of social rewards that social media provides over time. Not saying even they're spending an excessive amount of time per day, but this study just tracked kids who were habitual checkers of social media again because that dopamine brings you back to check it again. And the kids who were checking social media frequently during the day showed this divergent brain development over time. They kind of tracked these kids from age 13 to 17. So we have to just understand the underlying design of the technology is not neutral. It's not something that we can say, okay, we can use this for a little time and then and then set it aside. It's designed to be addictive. It's designed to create a constant craving and compulsion even when you're not on it. And so that's what I try to explain to parents is like the physical screen time limit, the amount of time the child is spending like actually on the app doesn't map on to a child's mental or emotional time. they can live in the virtual world long after they leave it wondering what's happening on the app, who's liked their latest post, have they gained new followers, and that's just the whole metrics of social media is designed to create that constant craving to go back on. Um, so and there's so many other reasons I go into in the chapter, but that is the most compelling to me is actually the brain research showing just how highly addictive this is even in small amounts of time. Well, and Claire, I think it's that we lose the idea that, hey, their brains are still developing because we look at ourselves. You might be in your 30s, 40s, or 50s, and you can feel the same pool that you're talking about. I wonder what's going on over there. There's a quote from chapter 1. And even when they aren't interacting on the apps or thinking about them and what they may be missing out on, it's a derivative of FOMO that's way more pernitious. And so, it just it doesn't it doesn't feel good. And if you're in a if you're a 40-year-old man and you're sitting there wondering what people are saying, what comment they're leaving on your Instagram posts, like, were you telling me that's not going to be so much worse for a 13-year-old? Like, I always say, it's kind of funny, like a 13-year-olds can't trust farts yet. Like, they're not that developed. They're not really uh ingrained in all the things that they're doing. They, you know, they will get emotional about a song or a band or, you know, they get broken up with with their two week old girlfriend or something like that and their entire world falls to pieces and they just don't have the mental abilities or strength to be able to deal with those emotions. But there's another thing from chapter one where you said this, digital technologies are making students distrustful of the feeling of being unstimulated. And so I immediately put myself in the backseat of the vehicle on a, you know, a road trip as a kid. And we had nothing. There was no there was no technology. I didn't even have a book back there. I had the window, right? And I had whatever was playing on the radio. And you know, you got about you got about two times where you could question, hey, are we there yet? Before mom and dad are like, well, that's enough of that. >> And now, like, you know, parents are distrustful of the kid not being stimulated and the kid being bored. But the kids themselves feel like, "Oh, I'm bored and unstimulated. Something is wrong." What say you to that? >> That's right. Yes. No, this is exactly the problem is the the screens and that constant draw back to the screen means that when kids are not being stimulated, they feel like something has actually gone wrong. And the the teacher I interviewed explained this was coming up in her class when she was trying to teach writing because she would teach the lesson and then she'd say, "Okay, now it's your now it's your turn to like write an essay and have a thought." And the students would sit there and they're like, "I don't have a thought. Like I don't have anything to say. I don't have anything to write. And they felt like even that moment of trying to sit and reflect before writing something like something was wrong like that they that they couldn't their brains actually could not be in solitude or self-reflection because they were used to so much constant stimulus. And so I I really worry at a very kind of like macro level the effect this is going to have on our country if we're really eroding kids ability to to have self-reflection and solitude because boredom is really the genesis of creativity. It's and it's that practice of actually being able to be alone with our thoughts that allows us to develop original thinking and those kind of critical problem-solving skills that we need. And so just this kind of kids are just scrolling themselves away um distracting themselves away from real life and not actually developing the skills uh and exercising those kind of creative muscles, those problemsolving muscles that really come from boredom. When you're bored, you come up with something to do. Like kids are naturally creative and we're really stunting their abilities to be creative by just constantly handing them screens um that undermine their ability to develop those skills and to develop. Also, you mentioned kind of the the difference in kids' brain development, that self-control and emotional regulation that is so necessary to being a successful functioning adult. You know, that part of their brain is the prefrontal cortex. But what's being stimulated by the screen is a different part of the brain, this kind of limbic brain that is responsible for these kind of uh social rewards, emotional processing center. That is the part of the brain being stimulated by technology. And so we are underdeveloping the really critical part of our brain, problem solving, executive functioning, personality development, all those skills which come from the preffrontal cortex and it's not developed fully in kids until age 25. And the screens are even undermining the ability for a child's brain to develop in that normal pattern. >> And it's actually going to get worse. I'm taking a risk here. I could torpedo this entire interview because we have so much more to cover. AI, which is not really something you really talked about in in the book artificial intelligence, because now we are seeing people, Claire, that are graduating college. This will be burned into my memory for forever. You know, they're wearing their cap and gown and on top of their cap, there was a girl that just graduated this, you know, this spring from some university. She had the Chad GBT logo on the top of her cap. The obvious implication being, I use Chad GBT to get this. Now, excuse me. If you hire this young lady and you ask her a question and she can't give you an answer from her own head, she has to pull her phone out or pull her laptop out and go to AI. It's it's destroying our ability to even create in that context. So, we've got the distraction of the digital world, right? We've got constant buzzing and beeping and notifications and people wearing smartphones on their wrist so they even if their phone's in their pocket, they can't get away from the notifications. You got all the things, right? All the FOMO, all the everything. Now you have AI which is going to revolutionize the algorithms even more specifically to you. Yes. >> And beyond that your ability to formulate a thought. It it's it's a derivative of you know you know we're not supposed to ask someone their age but I'm assuming you and I are in the same age bracket of some kind. But back in the day when you know we would ask like hey why why do I need to know how to do that? I have this graphing calculator. I just boop bop and I plug it in there and it gives me the answer. Why do I need that? And then it became, hey, why do I need to know that? I can just Google it real quick. And now it's like, yeah, now it's like, why do I even need to come up with an idea? Why do I even need to write this paper? I can just put a prompt in and let Chat GPT do it in, you know, 14 seconds and then turn that in. So, let's talk a little bit about AI, but I do reserve the right to pull us back out of that because that'll be the rest of the interview if we don't. >> No, I'm glad you brought it up because a couple people have asked me that. They're like, "Oh, you don't really touch on AI in your book." And I'm like, well, it's because this technology has emerged so rapidly and it was really there wasn't even that much when I was actually writing about the book. But I would just say the principles still apply. And actually AI makes the tech exit more urgent than ever because as you just said, it's only going to make the current trends that much worse, like exponentially worse because now chat GBT, these AI chat bots, they can do all these things for you. they you you are totally being undermined in your ability to think or to be able to write or problem solve if you're always asking the AI to do it. And so, um I'm very concerned about AI. I would just say like already, and I talk about this in the chapter of my book on schools, the edtech revolution that kind of pushed a laptop, a tablet onto every child's desk has not worked out. Our reading, science, math scores are at an all-time low in the United States. And this decline was already happening. It was not just COVID though the pandemic accelerated it but it was on the decline since 2012 which is when this push like the laptops had kind of become integrated into the classrooms. Well now every student's getting like an AI chatbot tutor on their desk. And so how much more is it going to take away their ability to learn if the AI is actually doing the learning for them or if the AI is becoming the teacher and they're not actually learning from a real teacher. if it's replacing these things in a way that's detrimental. Um, I read the recent most recent study said like one in three 12th graders actually don't know how to read. They are not literate in the United States. That's onethird of our graduating high school seniors. And I think that pretty quickly with AI, it's going to become why do I even need to really know how to read or have reading comprehension if I just ask the AI to tell me this or summarize this text for me? Like I don't actually have to read, comprehend, analyze, and understand something. I just say, "Hey, AI, summarize this text for me. Tell me the main points." And you just completely cut out the entire process of thinking. And I think what we have to realize is education is not just knowledge transfer. If you if you have that philosophy of education, I can understand why you think, "Oh, AI is just going to help us out, helps transfer knowledge even faster to the student." But education is about actually teaching people how to think and how to learn so that they can actually approach new problems and new topics. When they graduate school, they can take on new things in the workplace because they've actually learned how to think critically, problem solve, and to learn new things. They've taught themselves how to learn. If AI is doing the learning and the thinking for our students, we are really going to erode our future success as a country. And and I just worry about what the effects that has on the economy long term if we're kind of hurting the ability of our future workers to be productive problem-solving citizens who are going to contribute to our society in the future. >> Well, Claire, we already have enough idiots running around and now it's just like the ubiquity of idiots is going to be uh substantially increased over time and it's because of AI. And I feel this pool myself because I'm a content creator. I got a couple of different podcasts. Like you know what I could have done with your book, Claire? I could have taken the PDF of the book, dropped it into Chad GBT and say, "Hey, I'm the host of this show. This is my style. This is my audience." You know, give me a rundown of this book. Give me some quotes. Give me some whatevers. >> But then I don't get to notice patterns, right? And so, because I, you know, every now and then I'll read a book and I'll see an inconsistency. I'll be like, "Hey, in chapter eight you said this, but in chapter 2 you said this. I'm assuming these aren't divergent thoughts, but I'm just unable to reconcile them in my brain." But again, I'm an adult. I'm a 39year-old man. like a kid. You're telling me that a 12-year-old, it's like, "Hey, if I get my parents said I can't go out inside and play until or I can't play video games until I get my homework done and I could just type a few things into this chatbot and boop and then my homework's done and then I get to go play like and we expect our children to be able to regulate in that way." So, I do want to go ahead and yank the the wheel back onto the highway here because the AI thing, it'll probably come up with some of our future things, but I really want to get into chapter 2 as well because you talk about how parental controls are a myth. Okay, so we've already talked about the screen time limits like that. That's not really a thing. But then a lot of parents are like, "Oh, but on XYZ app, we have this parental control thing that all I have to do is toggle it on and all of a sudden my kids are protected." So, let me read a couple of quotes from this chapter. I learned something critical from my work. Victims can be in loving homes and with involved parents. Exploitation can happen to almost any child. My passion to protect the vulnerable and especially to protect children from predators motivated me to get into public public work and to write this book. And then another quote here, social media gives predators incredible access. And so I have been banging the drum for years, Claire, about a smartphone is not necessarily just what you give your children access to. It's whom you give access to your children. And the other night I'm sitting at a at a table and you know it's a great group of guys. We got a a 30-year green beret. We got an MMA fighter with you know 50 fights. I got a Baron knuckle boxer and um you know former MMA champion Marie Marine. And then there was another MMA fighter that we were eating with who runs this organization where they will entrap predators. They have decoys that are posing as 13-year-old boys or 12-year-old girls or something like that. And they are enticing these men to meet them in public. And then this MMA fighter shows up and not a 12-year-old boy. And then they catch them. They get the police involved. Like they confiscate the phones. They do the entire thing. Where do you think all of the chats started? They charted in in chat rooms, in chat bots. I heard recently the Uver Bible app. There were predators that were using the Uver Bible app to send messages to children to try to meet with them. and then Snapchat, Roblox, Xbox Live, PlayStation, uh the network, their their online thing. And it's like when you give your kid a smartphone, when you give them a television in their room, a smart television, you give them, you know, this PlayStation, you give them unfettered access to the internet, like again, it's terrible when something horrible happens, but it's like this was always going to happen because you basically you open the door and welcome the wolf in. So, let's talk a little bit more about that. I feel like you just made so many of my points for me. So, thank you. I try >> You say it through your voice. Yeah. >> I try to explain to parents when you hand a child a smartphone, you are inviting the entire world to join you in the task of parenting your child. You are opening them up to an entire world of people. I mean, at the most extreme end are the most kind of violent bad actor predators. But even more subtly, there are just influencers out there trying to groom and kind of co capture your children and and transfer a very specific world view that may may not be aligned with your world view um as parents. And so I think it's just important to recognize and that's the problem. There are hundreds and thousands of apps uh that they can access and you might think, okay, I've got parental controls installed. But the problem is, so if you install them within specific apps, the the the controls only give you so much ability um in the app itself. Maybe it lets you set time limits and privacy settings, but it doesn't actually let you see into your child's experience in that app, and it does not give you control of what your child is seeing or doing in that app. The algorithms are in complete control of what's showing up in a child's feed. Um, a parent is never ultimately in control and there's no parental consent required whatsoever in a child creating an account on any of these apps. So, I've had so many parents say they had just zero idea that their child had downloaded this specific app and that they could have been talking to just complete strangers online. So we obviously know about some of the worst kind of social media platforms but like you mentioned Uver Bible app educational games because the problem is social media features have now been basically integrated into every app. There's direct messaging components where you can friend people follow people on virtually every app. So one mom said she just thought her daughter was learning like a second language on this educational app and she had no idea she was just messaging complete strangers. Um, and so it's just it's really difficult as a parent to effectively lock down a smartphone. They do not make it easy on parents. There's no parental consent required for app downloads. Um, so recently I was watching a Senate hearing on chat bots. So many of these parents, they had no idea their child was in this like romantic relationship with an AI chatbot for months because they didn't even realize that they had that app on the phone. And it's it's like designed even in its size, it is designed to be very private, very individualized, very difficult to oversee. And so I've had so many parents say, "Well, I'm going to give them a smartphone, but I'm going to lock it down. They're not going to have access to social media apps on it." And I will just say that is not possible. Even if you block certain apps from being downloaded, there are just hundreds and thousands of apps. You can't possibly stay on top of all the things they could be accessing. And every app has its own inapp browser to the internet. And so I think parents often don't realize that that they could still get to instagram.com through even like the parental control software app. Like I had a mom say her son used the parental control app they had installed. He went to like the help button in the app which brought him to an internet browser and then use that browser to access pornography and it just like it was just inside the parental control app so it didn't even block itself. like it just there are so many workarounds and um I just want parents to not set themselves up for this impossible task of trying to oversee a smartphone when there's just too many portals of access and the companies do not make it easy or actually give parents real control or insight into what their child are seeing or doing, who they're messaging, the content of those messages. So, I just say parents are flying blind really when it comes to the apps um particularly on smartphones and smart devices. Uh and the last point I'll say cuz I think this is so nefarious is that some of the worst apps like Snapchat, Tik Tok, they don't even allow access from like a third-party parental control app. So maybe you say, I'm going to actually purchase some external protection. Those apps do not allow third parties to access any of the data or content in the apps. And so you just have no idea what's actually going on. So, those are those are the reasons why parental controls just really are not they're just a myth. They don't actually give parents real control. >> Well, and that's what I've I've told people before because I've helped uh some guys get their pornography and masturbation habits under control and, you know, they'll they'll put on, you know, some sort of a filtration thing on their phone. But I this is where I start with these guys. I go, you know, you can get around those controls. >> You know exactly what to do, right? You could go to Twitter and find >> rape porn. You can find murder videos. You can find everything on on Twitter right now. I refuse to call it X, but like that's the entire thing. We we know how to get around all those different things. But I want to double actually >> realize I didn't finish my point on my story earlier about the I was sitting there next to the MMA fighter who's uh you know you know entrapping these guys. We're sitting at dinner and he's got messages coming in from a 33year-old man trying to have sex with a 13-year-old girl and all he's doing is trying to find transportation. And we're sitting there like, >> "Dude, dude, okay." We're like, "We'll we'll leave the appetizers. we we won't even eat our steaks. Like you just let us know it'll be go time and we didn't end up making that happen. But there was something you said that was very subtle, Claire, and I think subtle is the right word. It's not just, oh, my 13-year-old might look at a uh, you know, video of a Taliban guy chopping someone's head off or my kid's going to be looking at snuff porn where they literally rape somebody and then kill them. Like th those are the extreme examples of things that are out there on the internet. It's the little things that don't seem so nefarious right? >> It's that person, that influencer that's in telling your 14-year-old daughter about feminism and how empowering it is and how she don't need no man. And you know, the biblical sexual ethic is not something we need to do. You need to have as many sexual partners as possible because you're liberated now. Let's burn our bras, baby. And then you've got >> little leftist ideas and the trans stuff. You want to talk about a a >> Oh my goodness. You have one girl Go ahead. Yeah. >> Oh, no. It's crazy. So, that's what I was trying to kind of allude to is these influencers, I mean, they recognize that kids who are very impressionable, very curious, not discerning, are on these platforms and this is their audience. They realize that they can reach them young with their ideas, like this is this is their base. This is like who they're going to recruit into this ideology. And they they make it seem like we're your friends. We want to help you. We want to support you. And they really actually kind of undermine parental authority. A lot of these influencers are telling people, "Don't listen to your parents. Oh, they're so repressive of you. I'm so sorry. They make you feel that way." Um, and so it's just there are people pedalling false worldviews um that are very much in contrast with parental authority and what the kind of worldview you're trying to impart to your kids who are using these social media platforms to subtly over time just get into your children's subconscious and to really indoctrinate them with their their progressive ideologies. And so I would just yeah warn parents that the these people are all over these apps. Tik Tok, Instagram, Snapchat, this is how they are finding and recruiting their followers for the next generation. >> Hey guys, real quick. So I remember back in high school I was training with these guys and they all got super jacked. But they were training and using these supplements that they were buying online and a lot of them had crazy side effects. These were not good things. There's no telling what all was in these supplements. And so I've always kind of been scared about what supplements I'm going to put in my body. 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Uh, again, this this will be coming out a while after this discussion happens just because of the release schedule, but uh, The Killer of Charlie Kirk. >> Oh, 100%. >> A point, yeah, a point that I made on my podcast is this young man didn't radicalize himself. like, you know, of course there there uh dark and nefarious forces that come from the pits of hell that had an influence there, but the K through2 public school system had had some input. The LGBTQ cult did the online world. This this kid apparently lived more online than he did in the actual real world. The you know, he was looking at animated furry porn. I mean, how how far do you have to go down the rabbit hole to where that's the stuff you're using as a masturbatory aid? And so I I use that as a warning to parents like you think this isn't my son's playing Mario Kart, right? We were on vacation and there was a house I had like a little Super Nintendo from back in the day. And so me and my five and three-year-old sons, we're playing Street Fighter and Mario Kart and stuff like that. And then we play for a little bit and then we set it down. That's not what video games are. It's like, you know, you have parents that think that this is Pong. It's like, no, no, this is an entire world where they get to be someone completely different. This isn't I'm going to go play a game of Madden real quick. this is an entire new, you know, world where they can go and exist as as something or someone else and it leads to these other fantasies. I'm not saying if your kid, you know, plays video games that he's going to be like an assassin, but at the same time, it's like where do you think people like that that already probably have a predilction for uh mental disorders or something like that, man? Like it's right for them to be turned. And again, even even as you've made the point, they're in a loving Christian conservative home, but the parents just kind of like drive blind when it comes to technology because they feel like ah, there's nothing we can really do about it. But I I say all that to say to get into something else. We're still in chapter 2, so we may just have to go a little longer today, Claire, because I'm I'm >> glad you brought up the Charlie Kirk shooter, though, cuz I've been saying this that this is it that it is too easy for people to get radicalized online. And I'm not saying that every social media user or every online video gamer is going to become an assassin, but look at all these recent kind of shooting events, acts of political violence. These people all have a very similar digital footprint. They were into dark, disturbing things online, gaming, pornography, transgressive sexual communities online like the trans community or this furry community that you mentioned, these animated anthropomorphic kind of sexualized animals. I mean, it's very demonic. It's very dark and disturbing. But like how would a child come across that if not for being online? I think that is the point that we have to understand is maybe yes not everyone is going to become someone who commits a horrible act of violence. But it's malformative for all of us. The gaming is in it just it stunts the brain development. It increases impulsivity and just lack of self-control and emotional control and just increases someone's proclivity to violence especially just through these radical kind of online communities and just again the ideas that children are then indoctrinated with as well as the exposure to violence. I mean things that a child would never witness in real life now is just very common to see in social media feeds. One survey found that found sound found that three out of four 15 to 16 year olds had actually been sent a video of a beheading online. So I mean I've never seen a beheading in my life. I don't I I pray I never do. But young children whose brains are not fully developed are being exposed to extremely violent material online and it just it can desensitize us over time as well as again these transgressive sexual online communities. just how dehumanizing that is and degrading to a person's soul that then makes it easier to commit acts of violence because again you have already dehumanized people in such just horrific ways um through these online online forums and so I would just really warn parents to get your kids offline >> well and it shows uh it shows how creative Satan is because you have to look at this again this gets a little rough guys Undaunted life a man's podcast this is going to be a little rough if you got little ears listening but Um, if you were to say, you know, to a kid like, "Hey, you shouldn't have sex with animals." Right? Even the thought is is kind of an odd thing, like beastiality. Like, that that's weird. I mean, you know, people have been okay with, you know, gay relationships or even trans stuff, but like having sex with animals, it's like, come on. >> Where do you think the furry revolution came? It's not just because kids want to, you know, go to the bathroom in a s, you know, a litter box at their high school. It always has a sexual component right? >> Yes. So this, you know, this this uh Charlie Kirk's alleged assassin, this guy was in a sexual relationship with another man that was trans, but also like to dress up like an animal. So it's a derivative directly of actual beastiality. That's where all these things end up going. And again, I think parents, they just assume because, you know, there'll be some meeting on the hill and you'll have, you know, Mark Zuckerberg there and you'll have whoever's running Twitter there and you'll have whoever's running all these things. They're like, but we have these these parental controls. We have these supervision tools, but you talk about that in chapter 2 as well. I'll read the quote here. The companies don't give parents real tools to supervise children. And the companies have a financial incentive to keep the parents in the dark. If they saw fully what was happening on these platforms, they would never let their children use them. And that would mean tech companies would lose business. So again, the company that's telling you, "Yeah, sure parent, here are some parental controls. You're good to go. Just let go of the wheel. We got this. We'll take care of it." It's like, no. They literally have an incentive to not do that. Just look at back. We mentioned co earlier. All of a sudden, all these kids are at home. They're they're doing like, you know, technically tech homeschool. And parents are listening in on some of the lessons and they're like, "Wait, what? What did they just say about the founding fathers? What did they just say about 1619 was the actual founding of this country? Wait, what did they say about about this, that, and the other thing?" And then they're like, "Oh, no. We're we're getting you out of this school system. We're going private school. We're going home school." It's because the parents, they had the scales fall from their eyes, right? And yet, we're letting our kids play Roblox. We're letting our our our kids have Snapchat. We're letting them have all these different things. And we just assume as long as we again, as I said earlier, toggle on the parental controls that we're good to go. It's just foolish. >> It is. Yeah. It's a false sense of security, honestly. And the tech companies, as I said, they don't give you real control, and it just convinces you that these things are going to be okay for your kids. And it is just not not the case at all. >> Yeah. And I think with a lot of these, again, I am a capitalist. I want companies to make money. But your job as a parent is not to make sure these companies make money. That's not your job. Your job is to raise your children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. And your job as father is to provide and protect for for those individuals. And so, you might be ready to take on an intruder in your home. And yet you've allowed somebody to sneak in through the smartphone that you purchased for $1,000 for your kid. And here's the other thing I thought about as well, Claire. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the the the medicine's kicking in. I'm getting all, you know, excited into the content. But >> I love it. >> It's it's not just the phone that they have, Claire. So, we'll get into this cuz, you know, we're going to talk about feast here in a second and finding other families, blah blah all the things. It's not just about your phone. Mhm. >> It's about your kid's doofest friend that has a beheading video queued up on his phone, hits play, and then turns it around and says, "Hey, look at this." Or or a pornography image or video or something nefarious. And so it's because the kids in general have access to that content. They just go, "Hey, here, look at this." That's where, you know, people are like, "I really hope Charlie Kirk's kids never see that video that went all over the the internet." I guarantee you a kid probably in elementary school is going to say, "Hey, look at this of some bullying. It's going to be a video of Charlie Kirk being assassinated being shown to to his to a kid, right? To one of his kids." Um, and so as as we continue our discussion here in chapter 3, you talk and we're going to talk about feast, but chapter 3, you talk about a a total screen detox. So, I want you to talk to families right now to the fathers mainly that are like, "Yes, we've got this problem. We've got all of our kids on smartphones. We've got us on smartphones. We can't seem to to deal with this. They always use the struggle language on we're really struggling. It's like, well, look, if you were struggling, you'd have some success by now. It's like you're just you're not actually struggling. You're just allowing this to happen. But describe what a real screen detox could look like for these families. >> Yes. And we'll probably touch on this more, but just briefly on these kind of collective aspects of the harms, like you do everything to keep your child safe and another child shows them something on a smartphone is precisely why I'm working on public policy solutions and like phone bands in schools. Like get the smartphones out of the schools for the day, pornography websites, having to age verify, like this is common sense. So a kid can't just pull up a porn website and show it to another kid. Kids should not be able to access that type of material. So we definitely need both. But as you were saying, parents, you're on the front lines, like especially dads, like it is your responsibility to protect your own children, and that is not just physically, but also spiritually and emotionally. And so, I really encourage parents to just start with a 30-day digital detox. I I realize you might think this just sounds impossible, Claire. Anyone can try something for 30 days, okay? Like you can do a diet, you can do a workout plan, like you can try something for 30 days and I'm just guaranteeing you that you will see these results in your kids that you just didn't think was possible. Cuz I realized like these screens are addictive. Imagining taking it away from your kid does feel impossible because you know how they will react. They will have like a withdrawal type reaction. But the thing is kids brains reset. Their habits can be reshaped and reformed. And that just it really truly takes a total detox to reset the brain. But you have to keep going, push through that pain point of that, especially that first week. And and you do that by really replacing the screens with real life relationship and activities. And so the parents who did this, they said they they took those 30 days, they set it aside on their calendar, they made a plan, they talked to their kids about it. This is why we're doing it. We want to protect you. We we kind of we regret we made this decision. we didn't have all this information at the time. Like I say this over and over in the book, it's never too late to reverse course. I have so many parents say, "Oh, but we already gave the kid the smartphone." That is not a reason to keep allowing them to use something that you know to be harmful for them. As parents, we gain new information and we make changes. We pivot. We say, "Oh, we didn't know that was a bad food for you. We're not eating that anymore." And so, it's the same with tech. We cannot be afraid to reverse course and to even apologize to our kids. I'm sorry. I didn't know this at the time. I know this is going to be hard. we're going to get through this together and you're going to be the better for it. And even for a teenager, I've had parents of teens reverse course, taking the smartphone away and saying, "We're going to help you actually prepare for adulthood uh without the smartphone. We want to launch you successfully to college, not launching you with a dependence and addiction on a smartphone." And so starting with the 30 days is critical just to get it out of their system, reset their brain, reshape their habits. Um get your get your spouse on board. So, you have to talk to your wife or if your wife talk to your husband and be a united front. You know, maybe one of you feels more passionate about the detox than the other, that's okay. But you just have to agree to do this together for those 30 days. And again, making a plan, getting your kids excited about the real life things you're going to do as a family instead um can be really helpful. And so, I will just say so many families, they thought it was going to be impossible. They were surprised by the changes in their kids. I still get texts from parents saying, you know, this book revolutionized our life. We didn't think we needed this. Like, we didn't think the changes would be as amazing as they have been, but like we kind of took your advice of just try this for 30 days. And like, we truly can't believe just how much more engaged our kids are. They're just better behaved. They're less emotional, less tantrums, kind of just less friction in the family, closer relationships. Like, there are just so many benefits to doing this. So, I say a detox can benefit anyone at any age, at any time. And parents, like you don't need to give up your own smartphones, but really you have to distance yourself from your own phones during the detox. I mean, just keep them as far away from yourself as possible. Don't be on them when you're with your kids when your kids are awake. Um, because we also have to model for our kids like what good tech use will look like even as an adult. And so we ourselves actually have to be a team player in this detox with our family and really distance ourselves from our own phones. So those would be my tips for detox. You can find in the book more like plans you can follow, practical tips, strategies, and things like that. But I would just encourage you to try it out for yourself and see the results. >> And you also get very practical in your description of of some tangible things that families can do. And you use the term feast. Fe. So, F, find other families. E, explain, educate, and exemplify. A, adopt alternatives. S, set up digital accountability and family screen rules. And T, trade screens from real life responsibilities and pursuits. And so, I I think that it's very important because you mentioned this early in the book and then you basically that's, you know, chapter 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. You actually get practically into all those things. And again, we're still just kind of flying over the book, but I think it would be important to maybe give each chapter its due and at least get a a little bit of an understanding. So, chapter 4, you get into find other families. That's the the first thing. F there. So, when you say find other families, what do you mean? >> Yes. So, yes, thank you for going through the acronym. I because I want parents actually know that like once you fast from digital technology, I want you to feast on real life. And so, that's why I use that acronym. It's it's fundamentally a positive feast on the real world and it really starts with finding other families. I think this is the most kind of critical factor for success. I heard from all the people I interviewed because of some of those factors that you mentioned about the social dynamics, the group dynamics that are affected by smartphones that a child just having one other friend or two other friends that also don't have smartphones and social media is such a powerful kind of antidote to that peer pressure and just that actually parents working together. Like yes, like legal change in our laws are great, but that parents can actually inspire cultural change. like we can change the culture and just seeing a couple parents on a street in a neighborhood come together and say we're not doing screens and our kids are going to be playing outside together can actually shift the momentum on that entire street away from screens. Maybe not everyone shares your screen restrictions. But now the the the shift is that kids are playing outside and now other kids want to go out and play outside with them and you've just you've kind of changed the momentum on the street. So, I talk about the importance of talking to other parents and trying to kind of create these own counter pressures in your community to make it okay to not give your kid a smartphone. Make it easier on other parents. And so, I just encourage you to start a conversation. Like, whoever your best friends are as parents, maybe they're in your neighborhood, your church, your school, whoever your kids are spending time with, just talk to them, encourage them to read this book. I I wrote it to be read by a parent who's not already convinced um about opting out of screens. And so hopefully you can use this book as a tool to just open that conversation. Um because I think most parents in their guts know screens aren't good for kids, but they feel this sense of inevitability. And I think just the power of starting a conversation saying what if it's not inevitable? What if we can opt out together and provide this alternative real life childhood for our kids? And I think that's what every parent wants and we just feel pressured into the screen. So if we if we band together, we can kind of push those pressures out of childhood. and and so I would just encourage you to find other families and just start where you are >> and and share your stories with these other families. So like in our house like they get to watch cartoons but they don't get to pick the cartoons. They have no they have no control over the remote or anything like that. And the only time you'll ever see our kids with a tablet is like if we're on an airplane, right? And there is an incentive to make sure they don't freak out and you know ruin the flight for a bunch of other paying customers and things like that. And so but they're not they're not on apps like they're they're watching Bluey. they're they're watching, you know, old Curious George cartoons or something like that. They don't just get to like scroll and kind of move around. And so if you can find other families, share your stories with them and kind of go that route, that is helpful. But then we get into E. So explain, educate, and exemplify. So give us a rundown on that. >> Yeah, I think the other important thing is that these are not just tech restrictions kind of handed down on from on high with kind of no conversation. And that's for a couple reasons. I think some parents are like, well, what if my kid resents me for this decision? They go off and binge later. that has in all the families I spoke to that did not happen but the reason I think was that this was these rules were grounded in relationship and that the parents actually explained to the kids they treated them as a mini adult like you're going to be an adult we want you to actually understand in an age appropriate way the reasons behind these restrictions what we are protecting you from and also even preparing them for the digital dangers and temptations that are out there because like you said if smartphones are in every other kid's hands I want you to know how to respond if someone tries to show you something and I want you to come and talk to me about it and we're going to have a conversation about it. I'm going to be a safe space for you to talk to about this. You don't need to kind of turn to your friends or the online world. And so I think explaining and then educating our kids. And there's different books and tools you can use to do this. For young kids in our family, we use the book Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, Junior. It just is an early way to explain to kids what pornography is and how to kind of turn and flee from that if someone tries to show you something. Um, for older kids, I had a lot of families say they watched uh the documentary The Social Dilemma with their kids that kind of exposes the the business model of social media and they were like, "My teenager was just so repulsed by this idea that this company was trying to manipulate him and his behavior that he like after that he really didn't want anything to do with it." And so I think educating our kids like they can actually understand the reasons for themselves. And maybe they don't fully embrace and agree with all the reasons. It's, you know, it's normal for teens to disagree with their parents, but they can at least understand them and they can understand where you're coming from and the rationale. And then the last part of that is exemplifying good tech use as parents. I mean, we communicate to our kids what we value and what they should value um by how we spend our time, what we do, and our behavior. And so, if we're constantly staring at phones, we're sending this message to our kid that the phone is more important, it's more important than relationship. um and we're putting so much attention on it that then of course our kids want to do that too and they come to think that that's just normal. It's a normal part of being an adult. And so I think it is convicting um to have to examine our own tech use as parents and say like am I using my phone in the way that I would want my child to use it when they're an adult um because we are their models and their examples and they are learning these things from us. And so I often also tell parents, they say, "Well, if I don't give my kid a smartphone and train them on it, they won't know how to use it responsibly as an adult." I'm like, "No, that's a bad reason. Don't hand your child a tool that's too powerful for them to handle yet." But you as the model living out your own tech use before them will be the best way to train them for how to use it as an adult. The same thing about other uh just substances that we don't say, "Oh, it's okay for a kid to do this," but we model. I mean, like you think about alcohol or even driving a car. We're not giving kids access to those things too young before they can handle it. But we of course as as their parents are modeling for them how to use those things appropriately when it when they are an adult. So those are that's kind of the chapter E is trying to give a framework to parents for how do you train kids on these things proactively but without handing them a tool that's too powerful for them um before they're ready to use it. >> That's right. And the next part of the acronym is a adopt alternatives. And so this is where we start getting into Excuse me. We get into some of the push back maybe from parents because, you know, you talk about alternative phones. Uh there there's a lot of different things that you could look at, but then you hear these things, but my kid needs this app at his school. Like the the the school uses this app. This is how he can get into the locker room. Uh but my kid won't have any friends. All of his friends are on Snapchat and they're all sending messages on Snapchat. I don't want my kid to be left out. Hey, what about driving? Like, you know, I use GPS to go everywhere. What am I supposed to do? just give my kid a Rand McN and and tell him to work your way around the city. So, a lot of because we've been in this culture for the last 15 years or so where technology has basically taken all the barriers away and and really made life pretty easy. Like, we don't have to go out and kill our food and drag it home and skin it to eat it. We just literally be boop a couple of things on an app and then, you know, a hot meal shows up at our doorstep. We don't even have to leave. And so let's talk about how you can tangibly adopt alternatives and then deal with some of those objections. >> Yeah. No, so I just try to explain to parents. I think some parents are just not aware there's actually better phone alternative options available. And so I would just say the common thread through all the families I spoke with is they delayed that age of first cell phone as long as possible. Really until a child was moving around very independently or driving for their safety. They actually needed a tool for communication. But instead of opting for a smartphone, they opted for these alternative phones. Like I have the Wise phone, um for kids, the Gab phone, the Bark phone, um the pin wheel phone are all good options that again have a phone feature, maybe some texting, and then a lot of them actually do have GPS for navigating and have some other tools that a kid genuinely might need, but no internet browser, no social media apps, no gaming apps, no app that would be an addictive, distracting thing for a child to have on a phone. And they give parents lots of control. Like you could even choose for the child not to have access to the camera on the phone if you don't want them taking pictures or sending pictures. So it really gives parents more control and it allows a child again to have a phone for communication or again for certain tools that they might need like a GPS. Though I really personally am anti-GPS for teens. I think they should actually learn to drive without looking down at a phone. But that's a that's a side point. So I'd really recommend actually training them, helping them look up directions beforehand, learning the roads in their neighborhood. Also, teens are not taking like cross-country trips. I think they're going to about three locations, you know, their school, their house, and their friend's house. And I'm pretty sure they can learn the their way there, and then they've memorized the route, which is much better for them than being distracted by a phone. So, again, this is how we've dri we all grew up driving, didn't have phones, GPS on our phone. So, I think uh our kids can do this, too. Uh prior generations have learned to drive this way. But just all that to say, there are better options. And parents, we just have to kind of have the strength to push back and just not accept that our kids need certain apps to participate in things. I think that was your kind of next objection. And just all the parents I spoke with, they were like, "We found workarounds. We just told the soccer coach, hey, our kid doesn't have a smartphone, so we're just going to have to have another way for you to stay in touch with us about updates on practice or games." And I think every parent that pushes back makes it easier on the next parent. And then if you get enough parents pushing back, you know, the coach says, "Okay, you know what? Forget it. We're not using this app." that's clearly not a great way to stay in touch with the team. We can do something else because again for you know generations the smartphone has only been so ubiquitous in the last 10 years. There were ways that we figured out how to communicate these things to each other that didn't all have to go through an app. And so I just encourage parents to not accept that answer to find workarounds, work with your school, work with your coach um for them to participate and not have to have an app for that activity. >> Absolutely. And let's get to the last two here. We'll actually combine these because I want to get into the stuff with schools a little bit further. But chapter seven, you have S. So that's set up digital accountability and family screen rules. And then the last one, T, trade screens, uh, for real life responsibilities and pursuits. And I think that both of those are so important because accountability is is key. Families have family rhythms, but most families don't really get anywhere on purpose. They always get there on accident. They just kind of like amba their way through life and the kid just picks up on that and that becomes how they operate as an adult. So, let's talk about setting up screen accountability and family screen rules and then trading those screens for real life responsibilities and pursuits. >> Okay, I'll try to be brief because I know we've got lots to cover and we have covered a lot and I thank the listeners for being so patient. Um, so just setting up digital accountability. This is just saying once a kid gets a a first email account or they do get one of these alternative phones, there should just still be no channels of communication for a child that are completely private. there is no kind of absolute right to privacy because it is important again for parents to be protecting our kids. I mean dads like you are protectors of your children and it's important for them to know that and to know that you are looking out for them. And so it doesn't mean that you're constantly reading necessarily every email or text but there is an expectation of digital accountability that if you have a concern you have access you can check the email you can check the texts and that in itself is the protection. I had this dad say, you know, like just my kid knowing I could check it keeps them from getting into dangerous things that they shouldn't. And so just that accountability is itself the protection. Um and then this family screen rule. So I get often asked like, "Oh, well are you like anti-families watching TV together or doing something as a family using a screen like a watching a sporting event?" And I'm and I say no. I just think you know the kind of guiding principles is that screen use in the home is very public and purposeful. So, a child learning to use a computer as a tool, especially as they get older. Maybe they're completing school assignments, doing research, like that's fine, but it should be in a very public place that anybody can walk by and see what they're doing. And they're on it for a purpose. They're not just scrolling online. They're on there for 20 minutes to write their essay or do XYZ thing. And they're actually learning to use the computer as a tool very purposefully. And then the second is that screen entertainment is sparing and shared. And so I think it's fine for families to enjoy a sporting event on the weekends or a Friday night family movie night or doing something where the screen is actually bringing the family together. You use that image at the beginning of every kind of individual family member on their phone at a restaurant like that is the exact opposite that that is like this individualized entertainment. We want any kind of screen entertainment we use as a family to be an activity that is shared and I would say and is not something that you do every single day. I think daily use of screens can be very habit forming and I we want our kids to pursue real life relationships and pursuits. Um and so keeping that sparing and shared and that kind of transitions into the last chapter which is just you know if you're taking something away you want to be replacing it with the positive and the kind of whole point of the tech exit is to help our kids really embrace life in the real world. And so just trading those screens for real life relationships and responsibilities. I think it's important. Um, what stood out to me from talking to these families is it wasn't just they were giving their kids all these hobbies to do, which is fine. You know, sports and music and art are great, but actually responsibilities that would help them progress towards becoming adults, taking on chores around the house, serving the family, learning to serve others in their community, in their church, in their neighborhood. Um, and that is really what's going to help progress our kids towards adulthood, whereas screens really just stunt that development. And so as a parent trying to actually allow our kids some more independence in real world ways uh to practice those skills that they'll need to be successful adults. >> When do you think about the independence? One thing with my boys is like I said you like we'll we'll let them watch cartoons and like we've vetted the cartoons and so we we had certain shows that have like had some themes and some different things like even like Peppa Pig there was like an episode with two moms. Dino Ranch there was an episode with a surrogate baby and two gay bronosauruses or something like that. So I was like all right this is they can't watch those anymore. Um, but the thing is is my boys still get bored with cartoons and I'm like, "Yes." So, at some point when they're they're done eating or whatever, they start going around doing different different things or, you know, there's uh, you know, I really like Danny Go on YouTube because it's it's all activity based things where the kids are jumping around and moving and so yes, it's visually stimulating and entertaining, but they're jumping around moving and they're getting sweaty and like that's the thing. But then they get bored and then they want to go outside and then they want to play with blocks and they want to do something else. And it's like guys, those are the signs of life that you need from your kids. Um, I want to get to this last section if if we're okay going over time just a little bit because I think this is I probably should have started here >> because this has become such a huge one for me cuz I again I've got a 5-year-old and a three-year-old and so we're we're not quite there yet and so I'm really freaked out but at my kids school I just keep waiting for the email to come to say that they've banned phones at this school cuz as of right now as far as I understand in middle school and high school you're not allowed to have your phones in class with you or if like they're supposed to be in your locker, right? >> Mhm. >> And on Wednesdays they have like phone free Wednesdays so you're not supposed to bring your phone to school at all on Wednesdays. It's like oh that's the one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Like why in the world would that like one day a week? What is that supposed to do? >> Why can't you just do it all the days, >> right? And so there are a lot of schools like there are a lot of states that are trying to ban smartphones. I've seen states where, you know, there's like these digital bags that the kids have to put put in there and they stay locked up all day long until the kids get out uh on the back end. >> And I don't see any data at this moment where the schools that did the smartphone bans were like, "Oh gosh, we should have never done this." Like across the board, the kids love it. >> The parents, well, actually, we'll talk about parents in a second, but the administrators love it. the teachers aren't having to spend 12% of their class time checking to make sure the kid isn't pulling their phone out to chat GBT the answer to this particular thing on the test like and the kids are interacting with one another. They're looking at one another. And the problem with oh just leave your phones in your lockers the entire time you're in biology class hating yourself. You can't wait for the bell to go ding so you can run to your locker and check your smartphone, right? To see if you if your friend responded to that text, if anyone liked your latest post or any of those types of things. And so you have these distraction boxes that have like heat seeeking missiles that basically take these kids back to their lockers and it's like no we can't do that. And you know unfortunately right now you know my kids school has not gone fully uh to the side of like banning the phones and all that but I think one of the biggest stumbing blocks is parents. >> Parents want to be in touch with their kids all day every day. They want to text their kid. You have mom sitting at home doing nothing like and they're just texting their kids like bothering them all day. Like if my mom needed to get a hold of me during the day, she'd have to call the office and the office would have to send a runner down to the classroom to say like, "Hey, can you tell Kyle his mom's going to pick him up at at 2:00 today cuz he's got a dentist appointment or something like that?" >> And and so you have a lot of thoughts here. Obviously, you talked about it in the book. This is a major thing for me advocating for schools getting rid of these phones. So, let's let's get into that discussion. >> Yeah. No, it's a winning policy. 18 states and the District of Columbia have now banned phones from bell to bell, which is what you're talking about because the classroom ban is not sufficient. If the kids are then checking it during the breaks, the passing periods, lunch, recess, you want to protect the entire school day and their social environment from the phones because it's if they're just still on the phones during lunch and recess, they're losing that social interaction. Like school is important for many reasons, of course, education, but it's also a child's main social environment during the day. and we want them to have real life friendships and relationships and not just all be individually sucked away into our phones. And so it's a it's a policy that is having tremendous benefits. It's reducing student discipline issues. The phones were causing a lot of discipline problems in schools. Um it's making teacher student relationships so much better, increasing respect for students um of students for their teachers, increasing the interactions among students, and then also just increasing the ability to learn um and to pay attention in class and to not be distracted as you mentioned, not just during class, but mentally by the thought of getting on your phone as soon as the bell for that class is over. And so this really protects a child's mental space for the entire day to be three of the distraction of the phone. So kids are learning so much better. Test scores, GPA, everything is improving and it's actually notably improving the most for like the lowest performing students. They see like double the increase in kind of their academic improvements. And so it's it's a really winning policy. And I think, you know, we're talking about the learning outcomes being so low um declining in our country because of this kind of push for screenbased learning. On the other hand, getting phones and screens out of the school day is like one of the easiest solutions to just improve student learning outcomes and it's a very like lowcost policy. You're just taking phones out of the school day. Um, but you mentioned parents and I would say th this has worked really well where parents have been supportive of the policy. The schools are always ready to do this. The administrators and teachers are hungry for this. It's often parents that want this ability to be in touch with their kids 24/7. And I think just trying to help convey to parents some of these kind of myths of needing to be in touch with their kids all the time that helping them understand it's actually not good for the kids. It's it's detrimental to their learning for them to be distracted or interrupted all the time. And the kind of myth too around school shootings like I mean obviously horrific tragedies but kids are actually safer not having access to phones. Law enforcement officials, first responders will tell you it's incredibly dangerous and actually distracting for kids to have access to phones in a situation like an active shooter or other type of emergency. They need to be paying attention, be quiet, listening to law enforcement, listening to the instructions of their teacher. And phones going off, kids being on phones can actually like give away kids location. And so I think trying to explain to parents this this kind of understanding you have that your child would be safer if they have the phone on them is actually not true. they're much safer not having access to a phone. The teacher, the school administrators, these people have phones. If there's an emergency situation, the kids don't need to have it. And of course, parents can get in touch with the school if they need to reach their child. Um, as you mentioned, the main office can relay a message. And so, there's no need for a child to have constant access to a phone during the school day. It's actually much better for them if they don't. And so, trying to help educate parents on that and then encourage parents to go tell your school that you want this policy because I think most schools are ready to do it. they just they want the parents to be on board because they often unfortunately get a lot of push back from parents. But in states where they've implemented this, I've had administrators say they were just pleasantly surprised that once the policy was in effect, uh parents actually became more supportive of it because they noticed these positive changes in their students and they were like, "Wow, okay. Yeah, this has been really good." Well, Claire, we got to make this the last question of the day, even though there's more to talk about, but the whole time the whole time that we're talking this way, cuz I try to have some decent levels of of personal awareness. And I could I could hear the complaints now. Well, y'all are just a bunch of fddy duddies, you know, that you know, you just want to like take things back to the way things were. And man, you just need to get with the program. Like I got a buddy that is like way off the deep end in the AI stuff and he's like Kyle you either embrace it or you die. That's it. Like as a company you embrace you embrace AI or you lose. Like you're you're just not going to be able to survive and you're not going to be able to compete. And it's just like >> if if your kid leaves high school not knowing how to change all these things within apps and not not knowing how to use a laptop and not knowing how to do all these things, they're going to be just so far behind. So, while y'all are out there fuddy duddying and then, you know, making sourdough and, you know, like, you know, building forts out in the woods, there are kids in China that are going to be outpacing us, right? There are kids in, and we've talked about it because our educational outcomes for students are atrocious, even though the per pupil funding for education in this country, I think, is one of the highest in the entire world. And yet, we're not getting any of the outcomes. So, what would you say to the people that are like, "Great, I see your arguments. Yep, I read the book by Jonathan Height. It's Yeah, I thought it was great. I thought it was interesting, but come on. Like, we we can't go back in time. I get you want to go to Blockbuster and then, you know, pay for dinner for your entire family and spend $10 at McDonald's. We just don't live in that world anymore. Like, get with the program. >> Yeah. No, the biggest uh what I would tell parents is first of all, like what kids most need to succeed um and to be able to manage tech and innovation and things that are evolving is critical thinking and problem solving skills. Like Steve Jobs who invented the iPhone didn't grow up on an iPhone. Like he just grew up as a smart person who learned and he didn't want his kids to have any of those things kids. So I think it's a myth that smartphones and social media in particular somehow convey tech skills or like conversing with an AI chatbot gives your kids tech skills. It doesn't. I mean it's not giving them actual technological skills. Okay. It teaches them how to scroll on an app or swipe between apps or text their friends. So, I'm not opposed to kids actually learning how to use a computer, learn computer coding or even learn how to use AI as a tool in a like computer science class. Like there are certain settings where a kid can learn these things that doesn't need to be a part of their daily life in such an addictive immersive way. And so, a smartphone and social media are not going to give your kid the tech skills they need. In fact, some of these text exit families I interviewed, they were like, "My my son had no smartphone, no social media, no games." But we did let him use his computer in the family room to code, practice his coding skills 20, 30 minutes a day, and he taught himself. He checked out books from the library on computer science and coding and just taught himself. And then he won a coding scholarship to this university in Ohio. He was like a full ride. And this is a kid who grew up without a smartphone or social media. And I'm like, and he's going to be better for it. He's not addicted to a smartphone. He's got his critical thinking, problem solving skills. and he taught himself how to code, he's going to be so prepared for the next generation. And so I understand AI is the future in in some respects, but really like we can't our children are also the future and we can't sacrifice one to the other. And just letting kids have like massive use of AI or AI chatbots integrated into everything is not what's going to prepare them for how to handle that future. Well, um, allowing kids maybe to learn in a computer science class how to use AI as a tool again in a timelimited, very specific setting. Using it purposefully as a tool, not being used by it, I think is a way that we can again teach our kids the technology that they may need appropriately, but it is certainly not going to be through letting them have access to an AI chatbot 247, being on apps on their phones, having a smartphone. that's not going to give them the skills that they need to succeed as adults, even in a digital age in the future. >> All right. Very good. Well, we've weaved in and out of a lot of different subject matters. And look, both both you and I are still standing. We're still here. We're still talking. I think we're both going to take a nap after this because I think we've earned it. But, uh, that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> No. All I would say is just, um, you can find more about my book and some resources to go with it at the techexit.com. So, talking about finding other families, I actually wrote a discussion guide to go with the book with questions for parents to talk through together in a kind of book club setting. Um, and I have a practical tip sheet of here are screenf free activities to do with your kids, especially if you're going through a detox, you need some inspiration. So, those PDF resources all available the techexit.com. >> All right, very good. Thank you again for coming on, Claire. >> Thanks for having me. >> There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Claire Morell. But before I let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. So, I've got a a lot of links for you today. I've got a link to the techexit.com. So, that's where you can check out where the book is in different places. Also, a link to where you can buy it on Amazon. A link to her substack, and also a link to the ethics and public policy center. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undantton.life. That's info@undantton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [Music]