CHRIS ZERZAVY | Life After My Son's Death (Ep. 771)

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0:30 This is Undaunted Life a Man's Podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.

0:57 Chris earth be welcome to the studio. How are you man? Doing good man. It's good to be here.

1:01 Okay, so the audience because when we do these sit downs, these in person sit downs, we don't

1:04 do like my normal intro outro. So you and I have known each other since but it had to have been like

1:09 seventh grade. Yes, middle school. Junior high is what it's called. Yeah, we call who calls it

1:14 middle school. I don't know how they've moved it that way and can shut off. Well, it's also when

1:17 we were in junior high, it was what was it? It was seventh through ninth. Seventh through ninth. And

1:22 they changed it to where it's like six through eight and then nine through ten as high school.

1:26 Is that how it still is? That's how it is a cash. So, Eisenhower junior high school. Go Vikings.

1:32 Go Vikings. That was us. And then, and we, I mean, so the thing is is like you can have a bunch of

1:37 friends like in elementary school and middle school and all that. But then when you start

1:42 like diverging, like some kids kind of go the pre AP school route and some people, you know,

1:46 kind of just do the regular class thing. So we had a ton of classes together because

1:52 once we got to law in Eisenhower high school, then we didn't have like, we had to, we had a lot

1:57 of AP classes, but there wasn't like 15 different AP calculus that you could be in. There was like

2:02 one and it was like that was the hour that you had to do it. So yeah, we've known each other for like

2:06 way too long. Our schedules were basically the same. Yeah, for a long time. And then, and so you're

2:11 in, are you in cash or Elgin now? I'm in cash now. You're in cash. Okay. So that's right. That's a

2:15 suburb of the great big city of lot in Oklahoma. Huge. Where we're from now. Are you from a lot in

2:20 originally? I am born and raised in Lawton. Which elementary school did you go to? Elmore West.

2:24 Well, first I went to Pioneer Park, then I'm West. Okay. So I was, it would have been whatever

2:29 the school was before it was Pat Henry. Okay. So whatever it was called, it was Lincoln,

2:33 maybe Lincoln Elementary and then became Pat Henry. I think it was after it burned down,

2:37 it became Pat Henry. Yes. Or whatever, like a kid burned it down, literally kid burned it down.

2:41 Sounds like Lawton. Yeah. And then I went to Crosby Park. Yeah. That's like the most Lawton

2:44 story ever like kid burn out in school. I can't remember if it was before the kid burned it down

2:48 or not. Yeah. As far as I know, nobody was inside at that time, but literally like we basically kind

2:55 of grew up together at school. And so because we were always in the same classes and different

2:59 things like that. But when I was getting ready for this, because we're we're covering a lot of

3:03 ground today, I don't know if you remember this, but you and I would go play like pickup sports

3:09 randomly. Absolutely. And so I thought it was a really good racquetball player, but you played

3:13 tennis. I was a tennis player. I was a baseball player. So I have hand-eye coordination and I

3:17 can swing, but you played tennis and you took me to Ryan Harder somewhere out on Fort Sill and you

3:23 destroyed me in racquetball. Do you remember this? I do remember that. I was so like, I was

3:29 completely, I don't even remember getting mad and at the time that would have been very up my alley.

3:34 But it was like, I don't even remember being mad because it wasn't even close. It wasn't

3:37 like I was barely there. I was not even in your same vicinity. No, that hand-eye coordination of

3:43 tennis and court awareness and racquetball translators really well. So yeah, that was that was something

3:48 that I was pretty good at. And I do remember enjoying that time very much because you always

3:52 graded everything. So it's good to be able to take you out there. And you would just smile. You

3:56 would just like, because I mean, for me, I haven't played racquetball in forever, but you would hit

3:59 the ball like an inch off the ground. And I would be because I'm a hustle guy, right? So I'm like,

4:05 I'm just hustling and running. And so I'm diving all over the place and to no avail. Or I would

4:10 make this incredible return shot. But you're just perfectly in position. You would just

4:14 ride over the wall. It's so stupid. But you did teach me how you can like hit it off the top of

4:21 the wall to where it skips off the roof and then sends it back all the way. And then the guy ends

4:25 up having to remember. That's awesome. Now, because I haven't played in like over 10 years,

4:29 but I do remember that just destroying people because you just assume the ball is going to end

4:32 up right next to you. So I don't think I did a good job describing it. So guys, if you play racquetball,

4:36 you hit it off of the, you know, the main wall towards the top at an upward angle. And then it'll

4:42 skip off of the roof and then skip off the glass at the very back. And die. But it's coming off so

4:48 fast once it comes off the glass. Like it basically is like taken off towards the wall. And it's

4:53 it's probably going to bounce twice before you get there. Yeah, it's great. Perfect move for defense.

4:57 It wasn't any fun. It was not any fun playing with you. I would play with some of my pickle ball.

5:01 I've never played pickle ball. It's fun. It's not that I won't. It's just that I haven't. Yeah,

5:05 it's a good one, but it'll be addictive. Okay, I know your personality.

5:09 Yeah, see, that's part of the problem is because I got like, I literally just got a compound bow.

5:12 I saw that. Which now every, I got to tell you, I'm not big on modularity. It's why I'll never

5:18 own a Jeep. That's why I like when people get AR's and are like, Hey, did you change how you're

5:22 no, no, no, I want to get it built the way that I want it and then just leave it talking to people

5:27 about bow hunting. I'm just like, I don't know if I want to bow because like, just asking normal

5:33 people what kind of release they use. And then they get into like a two hour long description

5:37 of how they like came to find the perfect release for their body and everything. I'm like,

5:41 rifle hunting, I just get it in the crosshairs, make sure my rifle's sighted in and go bang.

5:46 Well, that trigger. But but you've been compound hunting for a while.

5:49 I have. Yeah. As I had some land, I would take the boys out there and would go compound hunting.

5:53 I enjoyed it. I haven't done it in quite some time now. We've moved off of that land, so I don't

5:58 have a place to go. But I think you'll enjoy it. I think you'll like a lot. There's a lot of sports

6:02 men chip to it. Yeah. And it's going to bite you. See, I don't you everyone said the same thing.

6:08 You're going to get bit by it. It's going to just like consume you. But I just can't have

6:12 another thing to like go through the belt system on, you know, because it's like I'm on

6:17 brown belt in Jiu Jitsu. Yeah. So it's like, you're almost to the rarefied era black belt,

6:21 but then even at black belt, you got to train in for 20 years as a black belt and you're just

6:26 getting your black belt. And so I just can't have another thing. Like when I hear like Joe Rogan

6:31 and Cam Haines talk about bow hunting, I'm just like, I can't I can't be into it at that level.

6:35 Yeah. Like I got to be proficient. I got to be able to make good clean shots on animals

6:39 so they die quickly. But like, I just can't. Looks like you've done some fun hunts though.

6:44 Yeah. Yeah. I've had some it's just really good friends people that have found the show and then

6:49 they're like, Hey, you know, my family got some land over here or Hey, I've got an extra tag,

6:52 you know, over in this state to do whatever. So you, you know, and by the way, guys,

6:56 keep them coming. Keep the offers coming. If you want me to come hunt on your land and kill your

7:00 animals, like I'm absolutely here. But I guess part of the thing too is, did you grow up hunting?

7:05 I did not. This is adulthood. Yeah. So both of us are kind of trying to figure it out as adults.

7:10 But I don't care about racks. No, like I can't eat antlers. I can't eat horns. And so like,

7:19 I will kill the biggest body to animal regardless of what their head looks like. Now it's cool.

7:24 Like I've got a gorgeous red stag downstairs. Like I've got some works right up here in the studio.

7:29 I've got, you know, some good whitetail. But man, like I just don't care. Like I care about meat

7:35 in the freezer. That was my same approach. Okay. It was cool if I got something cool. But

7:39 if a doe came out, I didn't have a problem taking a shot of that. This is going to put meat in the

7:43 freezer. Well, and you have these guys that wait all season for that one buck to come out to show

7:48 itself and they're hunting and they're watching there. I got it. One of my best friends he basically

7:53 was like, there was a particular animal in his land. It was called Goliath, like they had nicknamed

7:58 it Goliath. Seen it for years probably. Oh man. And for years, he's watching this thing. It finally

8:02 became a shooter. But season after season, he's trying to take this thing out. And it was just

8:06 one of those things where he would be at this stand and it was at the other stand. And the next day,

8:11 he'd go to that stand and be at the previous and he tried to like find him. And then at one point,

8:16 he goes to a taxidermist nearby and he sees Goliath in there. And because he just knew it,

8:22 he'd seen this. He'd spend so much time with this animal and like he's at work checking his cameras,

8:26 right? And seeing where Goliath is moving. And he even said, he's like, I'm never going to do that

8:31 with another animal. Basically, what happened is the guy on the property right next door to him,

8:35 put off like an extra bomb, like it's literally like a [inaudible] bomb. And then Goliath literally

8:40 stands up, hops the fence, walks into this guy's field and this whole farmer shoots him.

8:45 Guy hadn't been hunting this particular deer. He just sees like, Oh, well, there's a shooter buck

8:49 and just takes them out. Oh man, that's the worst. Well, I guess like for you, since you and I kind

8:53 of had very similar upbringing, so you know, a lot of academics, a lot of sports, pretty much

8:57 no outdoors, like no hunting, fishing, like camping, that kind of stuff. I guess for you,

9:02 why was it like important like as an adult? Because I mean, you make some dumb mistakes as an adult

9:08 when you're first getting into hunting. And like, I've certainly made some bad mistakes and,

9:12 you know, you feel terrible because it's like, I wish I had made this mistake when I was seven,

9:15 not 37. But like, so for you, what was kind of the motivation behind it?

9:19 I think the group I was hanging out with hundreds outdoors men, knowing that I had boys that I

9:26 was raising, I wanted to expose them to those things as well. And so just getting that group

9:31 together, going out there, getting some land and having an opportunity to do the things

9:35 that I enjoyed but wasn't exposed to. But I can relate to you, man, I didn't want to ask those

9:39 stupid questions like, I feel like I should know this, but I don't. And so I had a group of buddies

9:44 that I could ask those things and I didn't feel bad about doing it. Well, that's kind of the key

9:48 because whether it's Jiu Jitsu or hunting or whatever the thing is, like, you feel like you

9:52 should know how to do it. But what in the ways to avoid being a crappy man series, one of my

9:58 things is don't pretend to know something that you don't. And so like, you know, I'll be out hunting

10:03 with guys that are experienced hunters and guys that I respect and, you know, want them to respect

10:08 and look at me in a certain light. And they'll say, hey, you know, they'll ask me a hunting

10:12 related question and be like, I have no idea what you just said. Can you teach me? Yeah. Like,

10:16 or when they're asking me to do a certain thing. And even recently, I, you know, we, we killed an

10:21 Oryx or I killed an Oryx. And it was so big, the three of us could not lift this thing in the

10:26 back of a canam. So we kind of have to get it right there. And at this point, I've got a plenty of

10:31 white tail. Yeah. Right. But an Oryx is from a kind of a different family. It's not a part of the

10:35 deer family. And so the stuff, you know, I've never gotten an intact heart before, because I

10:40 usually shoot the deer completely through the heart and it's in pieces or whatever. And, you know,

10:45 I was having some trouble getting the guts out. And so the 200s that I was with, Heath and Joby,

10:50 Joby and I talked about this on the skunks and crosses up so earlier this year. But, you know,

10:54 and my knives, I thought I had sharpened them up pretty good. But the knives I brought out

10:59 were a little bit too dull because to get through an Oryx is like skin, like the skin on their back

11:04 was like an inch, an inch thick or whatever. So to get through hide was with some, some different.

11:09 And it's like, you know, I got frustrated and I got kind of like, you know, flustered during the

11:12 process. But it's like, Hey, just calm down. These guys are educated hunters. Like you're

11:16 having some trouble. And I mean, I'm, I'm elbow deep inside, like trying to cut certain things

11:20 away and, you know, the knives not really working out. And I was just like, Hey, I think I might

11:24 be doing something wrong. Like if y'all see me doing something wrong, just, just, you know,

11:27 you just have to have the humility to be like, hello, other adult male. Absolutely. Like,

11:31 tell me what to do now. And they're happy to help you, especially in that hunting community. Hey,

11:35 I don't know what I'm doing here. Can you come take a look, make sure I'm not messing this up.

11:40 And they are, they're happy to come over there night, show you, help you, get their hands dirty,

11:45 and make sure everything's squared away. It's a pretty cool community.

11:48 When I feel like you say community, I feel like it's even more so that in the bow hunting

11:51 community, because people are such nerds about bow hunting, because like you asked them a question

11:55 about their release. They're like, yeah, this is the only context with where I can like talk

12:00 about this, because like if you just start talking about that in the middle of a board meeting,

12:03 it's like it's going to be a little bit weird. But as we were talking as well,

12:06 I don't know if you remember this, this would have been probably our senior year at Eisenhower.

12:10 So we go up to the football field, and it was me and you, and I remember it was our buddy Jeff

12:17 and Craig. I don't want to say their last names, because I don't know if they've disowned me,

12:22 because I have a podcast and say things on it. But there were like four other guys,

12:25 and we were playing three on three football. But again, you have one quarterback that basically

12:30 can't rush in three on three. And then, but the problem was, is we kept mixing up the teams,

12:37 is that if you and I were on the same team, like it just wasn't like, right? So like,

12:44 I would just run go routes, and you would just throw the ball up, and I would just go get it,

12:47 and they just couldn't cover us. So at one point, as a joke, we say, okay, me and Chris versus all

12:52 four of y'all, do you remember this? I do remember this now. I didn't before when you started the

12:56 story, but I do. So what do you remember the story? Because I remember it actually pretty well.

12:59 So I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember us beating all four of them.

13:04 We didn't just beat them. Pretty badly. The brakes off of them. And so because at one point,

13:09 I remember this because it's you and me on. So on offense, none of them could cover either one of

13:13 us. No, we just go fly. Yeah, we would just go. And as soon as if we caught the ball, we were

13:17 basically going to score. The problem was on defense. Yeah. At one point, they do like a

13:22 double I formation. So they've got quarterback, fullback, fullback, running back. And they're

13:27 running basically the triple option or quadruple option numbers on their side. And we're sitting

13:33 there like each of us trying to cover two different dudes and we're trying to watch the ball and

13:37 whatever. But you know, it was kind of one of those things where it's like, if you got one pick

13:41 or one fumble or one sack, because we were playing tackle. Yeah. But I'm pretty sure neither one of

13:46 us were on the ground at all. No, I don't think that day. But that was dude, I thought about that

13:50 so many times about how ridiculous that was. And they were good sports about it because

13:54 like they they knew like kind of the different different level of athlete or whatever. But

13:59 they were pretty shocked to that when it was forwarded to in tackle football that like we

14:05 basically just scored our will. It was actually pretty hilarious. I had forgotten about that.

14:08 That's awesome that you brought that up. That's too cool. Yeah, that was that was a lot of fun.

14:12 So I guess like, you know, so I we both graduate. Did you end up going Cameron? I did. Okay. So

14:19 Cameron is the university there, division two university there in a hometown. I went to UCO.

14:23 And so like I that first year I would come back like all the time, right to Lawton. And you just

14:28 kind of saw who you saw. Like, you know, you'd see certain family and see certain friends and

14:31 stuff like that. And I would come back to the church, but then probably by my sophomore year, I kind of

14:34 have your life there. Edmonds, my new home. And then I was basically coming back to Lawton for

14:40 like Thanksgiving and Christmas. But like for you, you know, you've worked and lived in and around

14:46 your hometown for forever. And I've talked about Lawton quite a bit on our show. Like,

14:49 it can be a rougher city. It's a city that if you don't have your head on a swivel and you're

14:52 not paying attention, you could end up in the wrong neighborhood and it could be problematic for you.

14:56 You know, but for the most part, like when we were in high school, the gangs were kind of funny,

15:00 but there was that big brawl at the 7/11 across from, you know, where the Lawton high,

15:05 yeah, I came over and there was that big like gang fight there. And I felt like that was the

15:09 moment where the gangs got like pretty serious where there was like there, they started shooting

15:14 each other and they started not just, you know, getting in fights, but like killing each other,

15:16 running drugs, running girls. And so I feel like we graduated at the right time, but you kind of

15:22 stuck around. So like for me, almost voyeuristically, like what, what was Lawton, like, how did you

15:28 view Lawton as you were just kind of still in and around that area, you know, even since 2004

15:33 when we graduated? Yeah, I think it changed. I think, you know, you're, you're in the school

15:37 set school segment and you see things one way, you get into Cameron and it's like a whole

15:43 another world. So just like you went to UCO, like, I feel like I left that life of high school,

15:49 even being in Lawton, the folks that I hung out in high school, I didn't really hang out in in

15:53 college. And so you get into that and then you get into your professional world and you see Lawton

15:58 and the outreach and the things that you're supposed to do to be a good civic human. And I

16:03 started getting into those things. And I do see Lawton improving. I think there are a lot of efforts,

16:08 a lot of different things that are being done to make it a better area. I think there's still

16:12 challenges in the schools. I think we'll always have that just because it's a lower income part of

16:16 the state. But I do think that progress is being made and I think it'll continue to be made as we

16:21 move forward. FortSill has a huge impact on that, I believe as well. Yeah, that was always kind of

16:25 the thing because people will say Lawton, but it's Lawton, FortSill. So FortSill, is it still the

16:30 largest artillery base? It is. In the, in the country, so largest army artillery base in the

16:34 country. So a very transient, transient population. So Lawton is basically two things. It's FortSill

16:41 and it's good year. Yeah. Okay. So my dad worked 40 plus years, a good year retired from there. So

16:46 that's the biggest good year plan, I think in the entire good year company. And so if you either

16:51 one of those things, because at different points, people have talked about the good year plan

16:54 shutting down. Yes. People have talked about FortSill shutting down and like what that would do to

17:00 Lawton, because so much money comes because of not only being paid by either FortSill and you know,

17:05 being paid by the US government or being paid by good year, but rental property, rental homes,

17:10 like the schools, because when we were there, Lawton Ike was 6A, Lawton High was 6A, MacArthur

17:16 on the East side was 5A. But now Lawton High is the only 6A, MacArthur is still 5A, right?

17:21 Eisenhower is still 5. Eisenhower is 5 now. Hey, they're either 5 or they've gone on 4A,

17:28 because Lawton is kind of precipitously, slowly kind of losing population. Yeah. And the population

17:34 of the greater Oklahoma City area, which includes Edmund Mustang, Moore, Yukon, I guess you could

17:39 go all the way, Guthrie Norman. Yeah. Like that continues to expand. Right. And people are kind of

17:44 leaving, leaving that area, but I think Elgin and Cash are growing. Yeah. They're spreading

17:48 on the side of Lawton. Yeah. And so that, because I remember like Cash was basically the edge of

17:53 the planet. Yeah. You know, whenever we were growing up, and I would go out there to see some buddies,

17:57 but yeah, I mean, Cash now, it's probably unrecognizable. It is a campus for the school is

18:02 awesome. It's huge. Yeah. Yeah. You have to come down there. I'll have to host you down at my place.

18:06 Oh, shoot. Yeah. I'll definitely come down, you know, excuse to go see the family and then pop

18:10 on out the cash, you know, drive 15 minutes, but I would always go to the Hoppensack. We'd go to the

18:13 Hoppensack and get pizza sound. No, if the Hoppensack is still there, it's still there. It's still there.

18:17 It's still there, but it's still there. I don't know if I would get the pizza now. It's called Max now.

18:21 Okay. How is it? It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have any like financial relationship with Max or

18:26 whatever. Yeah. Because, uh, I mean, we were, we were talking about a song with a buddy at lunch,

18:31 like, bro, I used to just eat candy after every meal. And I like my, my metabolism is still pretty

18:38 much the same, but it's like that feeling of like, okay, I just ate an entire large pizza,

18:42 and I'm washing it down with gummy worms and knee high soda. I think that's just a kid thing. My

18:46 boys try to do that too. And they have the metabolism to support it. I couldn't do it now. I bet you

18:52 could. You still got that fast space. Go, go, go. Yeah. I will say now kind of like, because most

18:57 of my diet is meat. So shout out primal beef or, you know, it's wild game or something like that.

19:02 And I mean, for lunch, I'll have a pound of ground beef as the start of my lunch,

19:06 but then also have cheese and then I'll have a banana and off some peanut butter and I may

19:08 have some yogurt and I'm just like lots of protein. Yeah. I'm trying to get 180 to 200 grams of protein

19:13 in a day. Yeah. And so if you eat a bunch of Doritos or pizza or bagels or whatever, like,

19:18 you'll, you won't even get to 100 now. And so that, that's part of the deal that kind of keeps

19:22 me honest at this point. Like, yeah, you know, if it's Halloween or if it's Christmas or if you're

19:27 having me over your house and you're a lovely bride makes a nice dessert, like, oh, of course.

19:30 Yeah, I'm going to get some partake. But my problem was when I would partake

19:34 with every meal. Yeah. Like every meal had dessert. Yeah, it's easy to get into that habit too.

19:38 So growing up for you, like, what was that like, like being at home? Because like,

19:43 we hydrated with Shasta. Yeah. There was no water consumed in our house. And it was always like

19:48 sugary cereal that we poured more sugar on top of. Same. Like we had fast food every night.

19:53 Same. Exactly. The same mom worked. So that's what we would do. We would eat, eat out,

19:57 sodas would be on the counter. You'd pour you, pour you out of the three liter and just drink

20:01 soda all the time. Yeah, the three liter. And you knew the family was so crazy when they would put

20:05 the three liter in the fridge. So it wouldn't be fizzy, but it'd be ice cold when you put it in

20:10 your glass. It's just like how in the world, because it's like, dude, when I go to my dad's house,

20:14 like over there down the street from Jeff, yes, I would get a case of Shasta on Friday night.

20:20 And that's what I drank until I went home on Sunday. And I would drink through half three

20:24 quarters of a case of soda without thinking about it. No. Yeah. Like, I mean,

20:28 untold amounts of sugar. Yeah. I mean, it was hundreds and hundreds of grams of sugar per day.

20:33 Yeah. So much. Yeah. And now so like, like, you know, we got these jocko energy drinks. I love

20:37 them. And I think what are these? Yeah. Because what does that have? How much does that have?

20:40 And is that any sugar in it? Nope. Zero grams. Yeah. So yeah. And the energy drink has zero

20:46 grams too. Yeah. And then you get into other stuff and it's like, you know, okay, does it have

20:50 sucralose or does it have like some other, you know, type of sweetener and like, dude, now I've got

20:54 this app called yucca that I will scan food in the store before I buy it. Because it'll tell you

21:00 what additives are in there. If any of them are high risk. Wow. Like, because I don't really care

21:04 about sodium content and protein, some would be like, this is too calorically dense. I'm like,

21:08 shut up. But like, you'll eat, you've just eaten certain foods for forever. And you're like, oh,

21:12 this has like seven things in it that could give me cancer that I don't need to have. What's wrong

21:16 with this? Yeah. But just get accustomed to them, the convenience. Yeah. So okay. So

21:21 graduating from high school, go to Cameron. Did you look at any other schools or was it

21:24 basically Cameron? So no, I did. I applied at other schools. Much like you got the president's

21:28 scholarship at UCO, I got the plus scholarship at Cameron. So compared what was offered to me by

21:34 the universities in state and Cameron was the way to go. It was a full ride there. Took into account

21:40 the different things that were important to be like leadership and the opportunities there.

21:44 And then I got a job at a bank in Lawton. And so that made the choice pretty easy.

21:48 Yeah, because those were the only two schools I applied to were Cameron and UCO. And so,

21:53 you know, because about 1000 kids a year or more apply for the president's leadership council

21:59 scholarship to UCO and only about 25 get it from the entire state. And so like, I was looking at

22:05 that like, this is my only ticket to somewhere else. Like I was, I wasn't like dying to get

22:10 out a lot. But it was like my only ticket to do or try anything else. And bro, I remember getting

22:15 into the interview. And I was in my Johnny Cash face, right? Similar now, I was just wearing all

22:18 black, right? So black shirt, black pants, black tie. And we get in there and I swear,

22:23 because I'm a ginger, I can feel when I'm blushing. Turned red. Brother, like I was sweating, like I

22:30 could feel myself getting flushed. And I left that interview thinking, I just bombed, like bombed

22:36 it big time. I mean, the quietest drive home, driving back to Lawton. Yeah. Right. And then,

22:41 but I remember getting the letter in the mail from UCO and I opened it in the car with my dad,

22:45 like he was the first person to know. I got the letter and first person let him know because that

22:49 was, that's basically a full right scholarship to go to, you know, university. Yeah, you know,

22:55 third biggest university here. And you know, that's where I met my wife. That's where, you know,

22:58 I still live in town. I live, you know, 10 minutes from the campus. And, you know,

23:02 it's just kind of weird to, to look back and look at that time period and think about how,

23:08 how different life could have been. Because at different points, I'm like, you know, should I

23:10 join the army? Maybe try to be in a green beret, like, you know, because I kind of lived that

23:14 Spartan lifestyle a little bit, like, how could I have done that? Could I have made it? You always

23:17 kind of wonder, but so like for you, when you got the camera and like, take us, you know, how did

23:22 you figure out what you wanted to major in? Like, how did that kind of like, because you're working

23:24 out of bang. So it's like, yeah, you could do basic business, you can do finance, whatever,

23:28 but like, what'd you end up doing? So mine's business management. And I guess,

23:32 so the struggles for me that I thought about, because I would look at folks like you, and I was

23:36 like, well, did I miss it? Should I have gone somewhere else and lived the college life?

23:40 Because Cameron is a commuter type college. Yeah. They're trying to convert it. It's getting

23:46 better. It's getting bigger. It's expensive to make a commuter college a live here, say your thing.

23:51 And it is a lot in Oklahoma. So you have to factor that in. But no, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the time.

23:57 I felt like I got a good education locally. I felt like the experience of plus made it more

24:05 like a big university, because you did a lot of things on campus. You did community service.

24:09 You know, you stuck with these folks, kind of like our AP folks in high school. So I did enjoy

24:14 that time. I went in thinking I was going to go into pharmacy school. So I started a lot on the

24:19 chemistry side, enjoyed my business classes. Like you said, I was at the bank and I was like, hey,

24:24 I think I could do this for a career. Yeah. And so kind of switched over to that.

24:29 While I was at the bank, I was doing an internship with the bank. And then that led to an internship

24:34 at Fort Sill. And so I've been there for the last 18 years, started my civil service career,

24:39 right after the internship. And I've been out there doing that since that time with the Department

24:43 of the Army. Yeah, my, my mom retired civil service. And so, you know, it's weird. You know, my dad

24:48 worked 40 plus years for the same company. My mom works civil service, basically her entire career.

24:52 And so it's like, that's what I thought, you know, go to college, you know, I started picking up golf

24:57 because I was like, oh, you can't be good in business unless you golf. And just even though

25:00 I hated it, it took me years to realize I didn't have to do that in order to be successful. And,

25:06 you know, the decisions you make, basically, all that stopped when we had James, our first kid,

25:13 yeah, because I always would go back like, okay, what if I had stayed in law? And okay,

25:16 what if I had joined the Army, not going to college? Okay, what if I had tried to go to,

25:20 you know, West Point or the Naval Academy or something like that? So like one of our

25:22 good buddies, Andre, so he went the Naval Academy route, he got offered by all of the

25:26 academies with the Naval Academy, ended up becoming a blue angel. Now he's like, you know,

25:30 teaching pilots all over the world. And you kind of think, you know, and then the GWAT,

25:34 global world and terror was like super hot, right, when we were in school, but then also

25:38 right afterwards, like, I remember talking to my dad about that because I was like, this is

25:43 before we had James. I was like, yeah, you know, I just regret not serving the country and, you know,

25:47 not being in the military, you know, like, because I feel like I would have been, you know, more in

25:51 the spec ops side of things, like, you know, maybe SF, maybe SEAL, maybe Marine Recon, like,

25:55 who knows, and my dad just kind of in his own, you know, folks, he wisdom kind of way. And he's

26:00 like, yeah, and you could be dead, son. Yeah, I was like, yeah, and so it just kind of put

26:06 into the perspective that God has a plan for all of us, right? But we still have free will to make

26:10 the decisions. But he can kind of direct our steps and kind of move us and mold us in a certain

26:16 direction. And it's like, I think I was just busy running someone else's race. Yeah, in my head,

26:21 because I'm reading all these memoirs about war. And I'm reading about the brotherhood and the

26:24 things that these guys were in. And it's just kind of like, but that wasn't my race. I got

26:28 someone else's race. Yeah, like while they were in some, you know, foxhole and Mogadishu or, you know,

26:33 somewhere in Iraq or Afghanistan or somewhere like that, like, I was in class. Yeah, right. And I was

26:39 furthering my education and all that. And then, you know, fast forward to kind of where I'm at

26:43 now with the show, it's like, well, maybe this doesn't happen. And the impact that in Dawn life

26:48 has had on men and on the kingdom, like that probably doesn't happen. Yeah, if it did, it would

26:53 happen. Yeah, you had to have time for that to unfold and see, see what God had in store for you.

26:58 You had to be obedient to the path that was before you. And I think it's natural for all of us to

27:03 have those thoughts of what if I'd have gone this way? What if I'd have done this? But I think God

27:08 reveals what his plan is in the right time. And so one step to the left, and you could have

27:13 been doing something totally different for your life, if I'd have gone to UCO, who knows if I'd

27:17 have to be sitting here, saying for you, you don't know where we would be. And so it's definitely

27:22 good for perspective, for thoughts of, hey, this is where I'm supposed to be, this is why. And we

27:26 don't always have to understand while we're walking that path. But it's good to know that God's got

27:30 our back. And I've learned that a lot more in the recent years. Right. Well, and I'm also curious,

27:35 like, and we don't have to use any particular names, but like looking back on our class, like

27:39 people that we graduated with, and of course, there's the wisdom of parents, like, where you,

27:43 you care so much about what certain people think about you. Yeah. And then these are the same

27:47 people that you'll try to avoid seeing, like running into them in public. You know what I mean? Like,

27:51 it's that same person. If you're walking through the mall, and like, you know, dive into dillards

27:56 real quick. So you don't have to have the, you know, that awkward small talk conversation. But

27:59 like, is there anything that kind of sticks out to you about like anyone that, because there's one

28:03 person that comes to mind that we graduated with that eventually I want to have him on the show to

28:07 talk about it. But anyone that kind of sticks out or any stories about like, okay, like,

28:11 who someone was and how they were like in high school versus maybe what we know about them now,

28:15 or anything like that. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of cool stories of folks that I've

28:18 been able to keep up with social media makes that pretty neat. Definitely would like to talk to

28:23 some of our teachers, specific ones that I know invested in both of us and our futures.

28:28 I'd love to catch up with them. Who's your favorite? What's your, what's kind of your shortlist?

28:33 Because I basically have a list of them. Yeah. I think the bears are at the top of my list.

28:37 So Mrs. Bear, she taught AP English and Mr. Bear taught AP calculus. Yeah. And both of them were

28:42 wonderful. Of course, I went yearbook route. Yeah. Miss Fortin was wonderful. I still talk to her

28:48 some. That's right. We were both in yearbook to the senior year. That's how we were. Yeah.

28:52 Yeah. No, I think those are our wonderful ones. And then I do run into some being down there in

28:59 the community. A couple of them I've run into recently through cash through kids and grandkids.

29:05 And so it's nice when you see them, when you get to touch bases with them. It just, it makes you

29:11 realize how fast time is going. Yeah. When you see folks that are remembered this way in your mind

29:15 and age gets us all. I'm sure I look way different than they have had remembered me.

29:20 Yeah. So it's just, it's cool. It's cool to talk to them now now that I'm an adult and have some

29:24 perspective on life. And they show up for important things. And so getting in touch with folks,

29:29 even my kindergarten teacher came and saw at the book signing. So just a cool dynamic of seeing

29:35 folks that you hadn't hadn't seen in a long time. Yeah. I'll say the teacher, the one that left the

29:41 most indelible impact on me was Mr. Adair. So ninth grade English teacher. So he and I did not meet.

29:48 So I was always at a deficit anytime I went into a class because my sister was a one year older than

29:53 me. She was very quiet, very subdued, never said anything, never ruffled any feathers sat in the

30:01 front row, straight a student, right? So they see another Thompson on their roster and they

30:07 preconceived nose. Yeah. And then I come busting in the classroom. I'm trying to make everyone laugh.

30:11 I'm sweaty. Like, you know, it's just, you know, I'm just like going nuts, right? And there's like,

30:15 what in God's name do we have here? But Chris Wood and I are in the hallway of Eisenhower,

30:23 junior high, right? Our next hour is Mr. Adair. Okay. But we didn't know who Mr. Adair was. Like,

30:29 we didn't know whatever. And so Chris and I are just getting after each other. And like,

30:32 we're like fake fighting in the hallway, like punching each other and all that kind of stuff.

30:36 And guess who comes and breaks it up? Mr. Adair. Yeah. And so he knows that we're in that class.

30:42 Or I guess he didn't really know, but he breaks it up. And then like, it's 30 seconds before the

30:46 bell. And so we walk into class, you know, whatever number. And it's his. And we were both like,

30:50 Oh, gosh. There's no way. There's simply no way that this is how we met our teacher. But that was

30:56 it. That's how we met John Adair. The first thing he had to say was basically stop being knuckle

31:00 dragon morons. What's wrong with you? But two things that I loved about him, because he was a

31:06 great teacher, right? You know, he kind of brought some of these stories to light. I was not a great

31:09 reader, still not a great reader, even though I read a lot. But there, I kind of had a, he would

31:15 do these we would do these book studies, right? And we would have 100 question tests, right? And a

31:20 90 to 100 was an A. Yeah. Right. And so you can only miss, you know, 10 and keep an A. Yeah. In like

31:25 two tests in a row, I got an 89, right? And I mean, you and would in like her gun or other and like

31:32 all you super brainiac kids, you're all sitting there with your 95s, your nine sixes. And I got

31:37 in my 89. And I'm just like, because I got grounded if I got bees, right? Like if I, you know,

31:41 it was a a's, a's or nothing except an AP chemistry, because my parents know I'm like sort of half

31:47 retarded. But like, you know, with the English class, like, no, you come on with a's. And so

31:51 the third time, there was like the third test, third big test. And I am super nervous. I get an

31:56 89 again. So when Mr. Adair came up to give me my scandron, he goes, son, after I got the scandron

32:04 out, I went back and I hand graded it. And I just made double sure that the answers were the bubbles

32:10 that you put and that the bubble, you really did get an 89. Yeah. Like I was, but the fact that he

32:16 took his time because he kind of knew like he knows what's happening in the room. He knows

32:20 people are giving me crap for getting to be. But that's a little story. I don't know if you remember

32:24 our ninth grade baseball team that was with Tyler Hill and yes, Kyle Thorin and all. So we

32:28 went undefeated. We were, we were amazing studs. Yeah. And my parents were separated at that point.

32:35 And so if my mom was out the game, my dad would basically be in the truck in the outfield,

32:39 you know, but there was a particular game where my mom wasn't there. So my dad's sitting in the

32:42 bleachers. Well, guess who comes to watch our game? Mr. Adair. And he sits next to my dad and

32:48 they strike up a conversation with one another. And I remember that game because I went like three

32:52 for four with a home run and like seven RBIs and like I had a, I had a game. Right. And he just

32:58 sat there. He sat there with my dad for the entire game. Yeah. And just talk to my dad. Yeah.

33:03 About baseball, me, who knows? Yeah. But he sat there and he didn't make a big deal about it. He

33:09 didn't wait for me out to the game and say proud of you son or you know, he just came to watch you.

33:13 He just came to watch. And I knew he was there and my dad talked about it later and that for whatever

33:17 reason that always stuck like stood out to me because it's like he has other things to do. Yeah.

33:24 Then to come out to, you know, a four o'clock game, right, you know, to watch us beat, you know,

33:29 Duncan or, you know, out us or somebody like that, just beat the brakes off some random team.

33:33 But he was, he, he had several students that were on the ball club and he cared. Yeah. And he cared

33:39 as well. He invested in folks. Yeah. He would be cool to have on because he's got that DJ MC voice

33:44 anyways. So he would be really cool. So freaking jealous. What was the rumor that he couldn't,

33:49 but he didn't blink. Was that the rumor? Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. I think he has something

33:52 like crossed up with his redness. So he only blinks whenever he thinks about it. Yeah. I think

33:56 he's gonna make himself. We would just be staring at the whole class. Yeah. Talk about it. Yeah. Yeah.

34:00 And he would never actually do it. But the other person that came to mind who I would love to get

34:04 on some point is Jeff Elbert. Yes. So Jeff, you know, I remember, you know, seventh, eighth grade,

34:11 you know, wearing Goldberg and, you know, some call Steve Austin t-shirts really into wrestling.

34:14 Yeah. But then he kind of went down. He sort of got mixed up with some dudes and he went down the

34:19 gang bang and pathway. A rough, rough go at it. Yeah. And I mean, and at first we were, we just

34:23 thought he was, you know, really got too far into the rap scene. And but no, he was like,

34:27 he was really living that life. Yeah. Yeah. Living the gang life. And you want to talk about Jesus,

34:33 natching somebody up. Yeah. Like I get, I get teary eye just looking at what he posts on Facebook.

34:38 Yeah. He's got a beautiful wife, beautiful kids. He he's a teacher and have on high wrestling coach

34:45 at law and high. Also has done some pastoral work. I'm not exactly sure what the type of full-time

34:52 or part-time deal. But like, he just can't say a sentence without talking about what Jesus did

34:57 for. And he's given back, given back to the kids, like eight heirs and bears, like he's really

35:02 investing in those that are at lot and high. I think he knows what they're going through,

35:07 what they've been through because he was there himself. And so to see him give back,

35:11 to see him make that turn and do what he's doing, it's, it's awesome.

35:14 When I've seen like pictures of him, like he started a chess club. Yeah.

35:18 But I think if I'm, if I'm remembering correctly, like in order to be a young man in the chess club,

35:23 you have to wear like a, like a tie, like a dress shirt and a tie or whatever. I may be

35:28 conflating some stories here, but he's always posting pictures with, you know, these kids. And

35:32 the thing is, is again, a lot of these kids, it's kind of hard to grow up in Lawton and not get

35:37 clicked up because there's so many different gangs down there, especially if you come from

35:42 one of these communities and one of these, you know, family systems where, you know,

35:45 mom and dad may have both been hovers. Yeah. And so what are you going to do? Yeah.

35:48 Just just go to school. Like, yeah, you're, you're probably going to, you know, join the gang or

35:52 whatever. And you know, he's dealing with a lot of kids that are like that, but he's just holding

35:57 them seemingly to a higher expectation. It's like, no, we're not going to, we're not going to

36:00 sack our pants and we're not going to, you know, we're not going to go get gang tattoos as a kid,

36:05 and we're not going to do all this kind of stuff. And like, because to this day, he's got some tattoos,

36:08 yes, keep covered up while he's. Yeah. Where's those long sleeves? You know, and, and that kind of a

36:12 thing. And yeah, but it's different when you can point, it's like when Bragg Lynn was here,

36:16 that make her out of Lubbock, like, you know, he has an addict come into his shop. It's not,

36:20 hey, you shouldn't do drugs, drugs are bad. Don't do drugs. He's like, look at my arms. Yeah,

36:24 I've been there. Yeah. My arms are all jacked up from injecting meth, man. Like, I know exactly

36:28 what you're going through. Yeah. But Christ is bigger than that. Yeah. And so that, that's the one

36:33 that sticks out to me of all the people that we went to school with. Yeah. Where like someone who,

36:37 he and I haven't, you know, kept up like super, super tight or whatever. But he's the one that kind of

36:43 sticks out. Because there's been people that have like ran for office and doing like stuff like that.

36:46 But you know, I don't really care about any of that. His redemption story would be powerful.

36:50 And what he's instilling in this next generation, I'd love to hear that podcast. You know, I listened

36:55 to this and have since the beginning. So yeah, it'd be cool to get him on here and share,

36:59 because I think he could relate to a lot of people. And I think his story would resonate with

37:03 those that listen to it. Yeah, I'll, I'll hit him up. We got to get him up here at some time. But

37:07 yeah, I actually do want to talk about that because.

37:11 The undonal I think has been weird. Okay. It started out with a devotional in 2016.

37:16 And I've told the story a bunch before, but for anyone that we get new listeners every week,

37:20 we're so thrilled to have you guys. But I was clicking through the U version Bible app.

37:25 All the men's devotions were just awful. Like they, they were literally like women's

37:29 devotionals that have been repackaged for men and just put in the man category. Yeah.

37:33 You know, my church at the time, they were the ones that invented the U version app. You know,

37:37 they said, well, you can write one to submit it. And I didn't know that. So I write a 21 day

37:41 devotional. They accepted it. Oh, that's cool. I just forget about it. Six months goes by.

37:44 Oh, boom. It's like the second most Redmond's devotional in the history of the app,

37:47 only behind Craig Rochelle's. And he's the pastor of the church that founded the app, right?

37:51 Yeah. You know, makes sense. He gets the best marketing positioning and all that.

37:54 And so I'm like, Oh, geez, like there's something here. And you know,

37:58 U version wants me to just write another devotional. And I was like, I don't want to do that. I'd rather

38:02 just, you know, do what I did in college a lot, which is put some bullet points on sheet of paper and

38:06 then just flow, which leans to kind of the podcast medium. But dude, there was no, like this wasn't

38:11 in the plans. Yeah, like two home studios, like multi camera setup, number one podcast for Christian

38:18 men in the world, number one men's devotional podcast with a daily blade. Yeah, like none of

38:21 that was like the plan. It was like, I've got some stuff on my chest. I want to get it out there,

38:26 as opposed to getting into Facebook wars with people. And if you know, I never have more than

38:31 10 listeners that don't live in my household, well, I've worked as under the Lord, and I can

38:35 move on and do something else. But like, how did you even know I had started one? Because you, I think

38:41 were our very first monthly donor. Oh, yeah. Like, I think it was you because you it was like 20 bucks

38:45 a month or some or 25 bucks a month or whatever. It was either you or Reg Aldrich. So shout out

38:49 to Reggie and I went to college together. Because I remember whenever y'all, like when I got the

38:53 emails that y'all signed up to be monthly donors, I remember being like shocked, proud, like nervous.

39:01 Yeah, I was just like, Oh my gosh, like, what if I say something like awful and they get

39:05 disinvited to their Thanksgiving? Like, you know, I just felt, but it was like validation from

39:10 men that I respected and men that I had spent a lot of time with a different parts of my life,

39:14 like, okay, they're validating that this is stuff that's valuable to them. But like,

39:17 how did you how did you know I did that? I can't remember how I ever time so yeah, I was I was

39:22 leading a men's group through different things at different times. And the way I got connected with

39:27 it was through the U version Bible app. And so I did that and I challenged the men in the group

39:32 to do that. And we went through it and we talked about it along with what the other deal that we

39:37 were doing. And man, then I started, I think we've reached out and we talked and we reconnected.

39:42 And then we've just kind of kept up since then as soon as I heard that there's a podcast,

39:46 I started subscribing and listened to everything. And our views line up on a lot of the points

39:51 that you make. And so I just couldn't get enough. And then as it's grown, I just continue to take

39:56 in the content. Appreciate what you're doing. Appreciate that you stay true to your convictions,

40:01 no matter what. We may not always see eye to eye. I know, you know, you encourage that. And I think

40:07 that's great because you can get on here and you can discuss those things. But man, I just

40:11 appreciate the work that you're doing. I appreciate that you stay true to who you are. You don't

40:17 apologize for it. You know, you're Bible based. You know that you're solid in your foundation.

40:21 And man, that's something I get behind. I appreciate that. And before my editor gets

40:26 matching, let's move that mic in front of your face. Sorry about that. Drifting just a little bit.

40:29 No, like, so I'm curious for you because it's kind of like, you know, if someone's on like a

40:34 fitness journey or a weight loss journey or a bodybuilding journey, they're with themselves

40:40 every day. Yeah. And so they don't see how far they've come, right? But then they run

40:44 in someone hasn't seen them any year and they're like, Oh my gosh, look at you and all that. Yeah.

40:48 So you've been listening since the single digit episodes. Yes, sir.

40:51 Like we're closing in on 800 episodes. Yeah. And you've listened to basically all of them. Yeah.

40:58 Like so pretty much. Yeah. When so when I was only doing first 99 episodes or solo. Yeah.

41:03 Episode 100 was my first interview. Okay. So now we do interviews. Okay. Well,

41:07 now we're doing two episodes a week. Okay. Well, now we're doing forging table. Yeah.

41:10 Okay. And then what does that look like? And then, okay, offshoot, we've got the daily blade

41:14 now with Jobe like, Oh, we've got ask a passer. We've got from the Senate with Mark Wayne Mullen.

41:18 We've got all these different like modalities within the show. You've kind of been along for the

41:21 ride. And so like, is there anything that you, you have noticed about, I don't know, like the stuff

41:29 that I cover or my presentation or like how this is evolved? Because I will always remember this,

41:33 I started the podcast the same year I started Jiu Jitsu. Yeah. And so I started Jiu Jitsu the

41:38 summer of 2017. And this podcast started like November of 17. So like, is there anything that

41:45 you've kind of like noticed as you like look back on all this? Well, I mean, just like look at who

41:49 you've had on the show. I mean, that's pretty cool. Yeah. If you take a bunch of killers,

41:54 a step back and look like you're influencing a huge audience. And what you're sharing

41:59 is great. I don't know about this episode. You've kind of taken a step back, but I won't hold that

42:04 against you. I think we're pretty forgiving. But anyhow, no, like, just the things that you've

42:10 talked about throughout the time, like what you've learned, like this setup is incredible.

42:14 You know, you're talking about the pop sound of the P's when you first started, man, like.

42:19 I'll show you our first studio. It's otherwise known as a closet downstairs. That was just big

42:24 enough for me to slink in and close the door behind me. I literally had my laptop on this closet shelf.

42:29 I had my mic attached to this shelf and it would be right here. 50 dollar mic from Amazon.

42:34 And I get really animated when I talk and this is before I did video.

42:37 Are you hitting the walls?

42:38 Bro, I was in there in my underwear. But I mean, dude, there's the whole like

42:42 closet's full of sweatshirts and there's blankets and there's all kinds of stuff.

42:45 So it sounded pretty good. I bet.

42:46 Because it was all dead in there. But like, I would be so hot when I would be done recording,

42:51 I would open up the closet and I finally got a little bit of air in there or whatever. But like,

42:56 that was the first studio. The next one was a slightly bigger closet on the other side of the house.

43:02 And then I move up here to that little nook area that you can see in the studio.

43:06 And then we expand to, you know, forging table. And then we expand to a three camera setup because

43:10 of a, you know, a very, very generous donor that wanted to see, you know, some better visuals.

43:15 And then now we're doing in studio stuff. Like you're one of my first in studio people.

43:20 And so it's just kind of working out well, because of the book that we'll get to in a second. But

43:23 yeah, that.

43:25 Man, I was playing.

43:26 Yeah, and absolutely. And how cool is that when you can take a step back and look at the closet

43:31 you started at? And you take a peek around here and see where you're at. I mean, that's,

43:35 that's just God ordaining your steps. You know, the right people at the right time,

43:39 investing you and you being obedient to what he's called you to do. It's encouraging to see, man,

43:44 I'm proud of you. I'm proud for you.

43:46 I appreciate you saying that. And, you know,

43:48 this is where people would normally insert something super Christianese sounding. But,

43:54 you know, people have heard this before, but at some point you just kind of lay your yes down.

43:58 Okay, there's, Lord, there's my yes. You know, you slide across the table.

44:02 Okay, so now what? Like, what do you want me to do? And that, that's why I tell people, like,

44:08 a lot of business schools and things, they try to get you to put it, you know, your three to five

44:12 year, five to 10 year plan together. It's just like, bro, God's got to look at that and be like,

44:16 that is so sweet and cute. You don't think you're going to get sick in the next, you know, a few

44:21 years. Yeah, you think you're still going to have that job here's life. Yeah, you don't think anyone's

44:25 going to get, you know, you know, anything's going to happen. And your life can just, how many

44:31 people's lives can completely change with a phone call? Yeah, right. And you just have to put your

44:38 yes down and then you just have to take a step at a time, step at a time, because like, if I,

44:44 it was never the plan to be a professional podcaster and speaker, but you know what also I didn't have

44:49 on my bingo sheet for a couple of years ago, collapsed vocal cord that I've been dealing with

44:54 for however long in two surgeries, the first one of which was not successful. Yeah.

44:58 I think my career is over. Right. There was like an atomic bomb dropped on my family last year in

45:04 my extended family and, you know, found out some just craziness. And I thought that this was done

45:08 then too. Also not on my bingo sheet. No. And so, but it's like the moment you get in the game,

45:13 Chris, that's why I tell guys that I coach, that's what I tell guys, like you is, if you're on the

45:19 couch in terms of your spiritual life, and then you get up off the couch immediately say it's like,

45:23 okay, target. All right. Yeah. Like you want to go? Let's go. Let's dance. And now he doesn't

45:28 always defeated. Right. He doesn't know that he has no shot. He only has as much of a shot as you

45:33 allow. And I mean, that's why I go back to things like Psalm 23. It's like the point of Psalm 23 is

45:36 not that God delivers you from the valley. It's that when you're in the valley, he's there with you.

45:40 Yeah. Right. And it's better to be in the valley of shadow death with God than to be, you know,

45:44 on streets of gold without him. Right. Kind of a thing. But we do need to talk about your book.

45:50 Yes. So we got your book right here. It is called Margin Guys. This is in the show notes. So you can

45:55 go and check this out. Please go get this book. It is in the show notes. This is, you know, put out

45:59 with a small group called Fulton books. And so not, you know, we have a lot of guys on here from like

46:04 major publishing houses and all that. And you know, they're, they built in, you know, tens of thousand

46:08 dollars worth of loss and all these types of things. And you're that you're not putting this

46:11 together to get rich and all that type of stuff. But we'll start slow and we'll work our way through

46:17 it. But there's a long story before we get to this book. So where do you want to start?

46:21 You mentioned a phone call that changes everything. And I think that's where this started. That's

46:27 where my journey started. You know me, you know, my background. I was a Christian. I was doing the

46:33 things that I thought that I should be doing. But I feel like I was doing it more in a self-reliant

46:39 state than I want to have been admitted. You know, I think back to the time I was living on a

46:48 mountain top, but I was doing it thinking it was in my power. I felt like I was doing the things

46:55 that I was supposed to do. I was serving. But I don't know that I was motivated by the right things.

47:01 And I say that because when you get that phone call, that becomes super apparent to you. The phone

47:07 call that I got that took me from the mountain top to the valley was that my son, who had turned

47:15 13 on September 21st, 2022, was at OU football game with his mom, stepdad, and best friend.

47:22 This was four days after his birthday. I had seen him that morning. We had a football game for

47:28 another one of my boys in Altus. So spent time with him there, knew he was going up to the game,

47:34 visited with him, said have the time of your life, send me pictures, text me. And he was, and he was

47:39 having the time of his life. After the game, he was coming back. It was a night game. I was out

47:46 at the house that we just built with some friends. We were having a barbecue, was dried in. I wasn't

47:53 there yet. We weren't living there yet. The house was just something that we were enjoying spending time

47:58 at. Man, it was a great night. Peaceful, stakes, filet mignons, I mean, everything that you would

48:06 want, hanging out with friends, music, corn hole, just enjoying life. We were staying in the house

48:12 for the first time that night. Pat air mattresses, no electricity, just kind of enjoying.

48:18 Set up the air mattresses, brought in the blankets from the truck. We're going to lay down

48:24 and the phone rang. And what I was told was there was an accident and that it was bad,

48:30 and that they could provide updates on everybody in the vehicle except my John.

48:34 And so as soon as we heard that, another friend that was there with me, his boy was my son's best

48:40 friend. So we hopped in the truck and we headed north up 44. The crash happened on 44 just past

48:47 that McDonald's there in the median. And we got from cash to there in like 40 minutes. I mean,

48:52 we're flying. But again, phone calls are coming in and we could get updates on everybody except John.

48:58 So I saw a helicopter on the north side of the McDonald's. We pulled in there, got out,

49:05 rushed over there to see if they were working on John and that's why we couldn't get any update.

49:09 It was not him. It was another one that was in the vehicle that was being metaflighted off.

49:14 And they directed us to where the crash was. So we went over there and got on scene.

49:20 Highway Patrol was there and he told me that John didn't make it. And so you're 30 minutes

49:26 ago up here and then all of a sudden you're rock bottom. And everything that you thought you knew,

49:32 everything that was important to you an hour ago, no longer even matters. Everything that you believed

49:39 an hour ago, you don't even know if you believe anymore. I mean, it's something that I don't even

49:45 know really how to explain what those moments brought on you. And then not just those moments,

49:53 but from that point on. And so that's where that night left me. Just agony, everything from that

50:02 point on was just agony. And so that's the beginning of the book. From that, of course,

50:12 you have to go through the funeral services. The part of the accident that really was haunting to

50:19 me as a dad is that the driver of the vehicle was drunk and on meth. Multiple offenses prior

50:26 to that. And he was coming home or he thought he was in Oklahoma City driving down 44 towards

50:33 Lawton and he hit that vehicle going in excess of 100 miles an hour left the scene. You know,

50:39 my John was there by himself and that guy left. And so beyond just the initial shock, I had to

50:47 deal with all of the, I don't know if hatred's the right word because I tried to minimize hatred,

50:54 but feelings towards a man who took the life of my son unfairly, shortened life of my son unfairly.

51:01 And so from, from a mountaintop to this is my new reality was a huge shock for me. Hey guys,

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53:28 So to to go back, and I know this is, this is no fun, but obviously there's value here and

53:38 there's a lot of nuggets that I think would be important for our audience. But

53:45 you have, you have several kids, but the ultimate nightmare for a parent, you know,

53:50 he's losing a kid. And I remember when I heard about it, just, uh, you know,

53:56 just hurting for you, hurting for your, um, you know, john's mom. And you just, you automatically

54:04 see your kids. Yeah. And, but then you find out about other people that this has happened to.

54:11 Yeah. And it's always, there's always an unjust thing about it. And I don't remember the exact

54:17 details because it's kind of hard when you reach out to somebody after finding out something like

54:21 this. Because what in the world do you frickin say? Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. And everyone

54:26 just defaults so that if there's anything I can do for you, let me know. And I, as I said before,

54:29 I hate that because all you're doing is transferring a burden on to someone that's,

54:32 you know, basically dying inside. Hey, can you come up with something to do? So I feel better.

54:38 Yeah. Something for me to do. So I feel better. But when you go back to those early days,

54:42 you know, as a Christian, what does that do to you when your innocent child is,

54:49 is killed by somebody? And you weren't there because there, there's complicated feelings there

54:55 because you want to talk about looking back like, okay, well, what if you had taken them to the

55:00 game? Yeah. What if, you know, what if he had stayed with you and stayed on the air mattress

55:04 that night? What if, you know, the direction of your, your family had been different and, you know,

55:10 every circumstance on the planet is there. And so that car is not even there for that guy to hit.

55:15 Yeah. So go back there and kind of take, take us through your process and your journey through

55:20 those feelings. Yeah. And I think I delve into some of that in the book. I feel like as the man of

55:26 my family, I'm responsible for what happens. I feel like as the man, I'm supposed to lead in a way

55:34 that protects those that are in my family. I put it in the book as guarding my garden. My family

55:45 is my garden and it's my job to protect them. Your mind can be so cruel. And I think you and I

55:51 talked about this because you checked on me quite a bit. And I think that I would look for fault

55:57 on my side that led to this happening. And man, your mind will torment you. Like all of those

56:04 things that you talked about would keep me up at night. You like, if I had done this differently,

56:08 would my path have been different when John had been here? There wasn't much directly that I

56:15 could have done that night. However, there was all of these things up to that night that if one

56:20 thing had been different, he might not have been in that car. And so the responsibility of the

56:25 weight, the heaviness of that man, it just drowned me. It, it tormented me. I felt like I was a prisoner

56:31 in my mind of those torturous thoughts, and I couldn't escape them. You know, you would challenge

56:39 me to think about things. You know, you say you don't know what to say, but I can think back to

56:44 some of those early conversations that although I don't know that I could receive them in those

56:49 moments, they were beneficial for me to hear. And they would resonate in my mind afterwards

56:55 when those thoughts would hit. Like, okay, no, this is, this is not where I need to spend my time.

57:00 Didn't always work, but it helped. And so I think that that's important to know that

57:04 when you don't know what to say, but you're, you're being obedient and you're following,

57:08 you can help folks and you did help me. And so, you know, those kinds of things are important.

57:14 I think from the Christian aspect, man, there was a lot to unpack. Like I said,

57:21 everything that you think that you know is a doubt at that point. Like, I know God's good.

57:28 I've seen him do so much good in my life. I was angry at him. Like he didn't do, he wasn't driving

57:36 the car. He didn't cause that accident that night. But my mind, my hurt, my grief didn't allow me to

57:43 understand why he didn't stop it. And so I still struggle at times with that, even knowing that

57:48 God is good, even knowing that he has a purpose in this story, even though that he knows that

57:55 John's story can help other people who are in hurting situations, I still wrestled with him.

58:00 And I think that there was benefit in that. I think that, you know, I align with a lot of your

58:07 thoughts on, you know, we need to focus more on the line of Judah aspect of who God is.

58:12 And I lived that way where I approached him with a reverence and fear and what I would want

58:19 to see as a father figure in my life. I don't think that I gave enough to the gray side

58:26 until I needed it. And so learning that side of God in a way of, man, I don't have to come with him

58:35 with the appropriateness of what to say or have to be perfect in my appearance to approach God.

58:40 Like I can be mad. Like I can have those thoughts that you're not supposed to say in a church to God.

58:47 And he's still going to be there with me. He's going to show me his character. He's going to walk

58:51 through me because when I was self-reliant, I didn't depend on him. I knew he was going to be there.

58:58 And I tried to do the things that I knew were right, but I didn't rely on him. I didn't allow

59:03 him to be God. I tried to hold on to that control. But when you get to the point where you're at

59:08 rock bottom and you can't even decide what you're going to wear that day, like you have to take a

59:13 backseat role and allow God to be who he wants to be in the relationship with you. I mean, he

59:18 carried me. He carried me through a lot of days where I didn't know how I was going to get through.

59:22 You know, prior to that, it was a checklist of, okay, successful at work, successful family,

59:28 built the house, do the things that you're supposed to do. None of that mattered, man.

59:31 Nothing mattered. And it reprioritized the things that were important, which were the people in your

59:38 life making sure that the ones that you love know that you love them. And then just getting back to

59:44 a point where you could be the man that you need to be moving forward. And that's a, that's a

59:48 journey, a great journey that I think I'm still on. I'm still learning day to day from.

59:53 And I've said this before, and it's one thing to say it in the, like, in the,

1:00:00 like the ethereal or in kind of the philosophical world. And it's another thing to say that in when

1:00:07 it's, when it's happening to you. But when a little kid dies and you hear about on the news and

1:00:15 something like that and someone says, Oh, you know, how could there be a good God? You know,

1:00:18 this five year old girl was kidnapped and raped and brutally murdered and all that. Like, how

1:00:23 can any good come from that? When you say something like that, you're taking the seat of God,

1:00:28 looking at a singular situation between two human beings and saying, net negative, there's no way

1:00:34 it can be any way else. Yeah. But you have no idea all the things that kind of come off of a singular

1:00:39 story. It could be someone that attends the funeral that, you know, Christ reveals himself

1:00:46 to them at the funeral. It could be scholarships that are created in a kid's honor. It could be

1:00:51 any number of positive things that happen. And when you say that there can't be a God because

1:00:56 something like that happened, you're, you're claiming to have knowledge of all these disparate

1:01:01 impact points that stem from that moment don't that don't end there. They they start there. Yeah,

1:01:07 right. But when it's your son, yeah, that's it's just not it's not cute saying anymore. No,

1:01:15 but, um, and we'll get to the impact that that John's memory has had and beyond that. But I want

1:01:22 to talk about the man because what I remember a lot about the aftermath is you and I would talk a

1:01:28 lot about the guy that killed him. Yeah. Because situation is not just over after the funeral is

1:01:34 over. Right. Right. Because this guy was caught. He was arrested. There were charges filed. There

1:01:41 were illegal proceedings. And I'll know how much you can you can share on here. But I remember

1:01:45 during those different proceedings, you weren't calling me asking me for legal advice. You weren't

1:01:50 calling me asking me it was like, Hey, I hate him and I want to kill him. Yeah. And to be honest,

1:01:56 I don't remember what I said other than I was just trying to listen, God, to give me something

1:02:01 here. Yeah. Like a God, I got nothing like I don't. So whatever you heard in those moments,

1:02:07 like it was filtered through this goofy head, like, you know, out my face hole. But I just like,

1:02:13 you know, you never deal with that. And I mean, the DMS I get in the emails I get from people,

1:02:17 they're just heavy man. Yeah. Because people listen to me for a few hundred hours and all of a sudden,

1:02:22 they feel like they know me and they don't have anyone else in their life that they can turn to.

1:02:24 So they, they message a podcaster, right? Yeah. In their moment of need, right? Everything from,

1:02:30 Hey, man, I, you know, I don't know if I should marry this woman to Hey, I don't know if I should

1:02:34 live anymore, right? And everything in between. But like for you, take us through that process of,

1:02:39 all right, you find out that he's been caught, you know, his name now. Okay, you got a picture,

1:02:44 you know what he looks like, you know, his background, and then you get into legal, legal

1:02:48 proceedings and then all the the feelings you were going through with all that. I think it's

1:02:54 important to note that that process is so long. Yeah, like they got him. And before we had a first

1:03:00 hearing, it was months and months and months. And so that's important for perspective because

1:03:06 normal life is happening by that point. So I have to return to work. I mean, I have a job that,

1:03:12 that needs me. So I'm back into that kids are back in sports, like I'm trying to find a new flow

1:03:18 of what normal looks like. Then you have a court hearing. And so I see a man that all of this is

1:03:27 internalized to some extent. And it's like, I almost liking it to like Jesus going into the

1:03:33 temple, like that amount of anger inside of me. I don't know if mine was righteous anger.

1:03:40 I felt, I felt justified in it because of what he took from me.

1:03:48 And then your brain just goes into this tailspin. And I could remember days after I would be worthless.

1:03:53 So like just seeing a man and having it affect me that much. And that would be when I would call

1:03:58 you. But man, months and months after this trials, postponed dates that were set for different

1:04:08 phases of the process postponed, changing of lawyers, all of this stuff factors in. And it's just

1:04:16 emotionally and physically draining. And like I said, every time we'd have something as far as

1:04:23 that would go, I'd be down for two or three days. Just nothing to give to any way around it.

1:04:28 No. And so what ultimately I think was beneficial was, I think he felt remorse for what he did. And I

1:04:40 didn't know that until the sentencing hearing at the very end. And so I had demonized him for a

1:04:46 year and a half in my mind. Because what else do you do? I mean, a guy who's had multiple chances

1:04:52 to change his life doesn't. He's addicted to a lot of things or was at that time. And it

1:05:00 overcame him. And he made some decisions that I'm sure he wishes every day that he could take back.

1:05:07 Significance and that a child was killed. But I think that while you're sitting at jail, you have

1:05:13 to evaluate your life choices and where you're at. One of the things you said, you don't know

1:05:19 what you said. One of the most significant things that you said at the beginning, when I first

1:05:25 first talked to you, was begin with the end in mind. And so I don't know if you remember that,

1:05:31 the specifics of that conversation. Yeah, because I remember I'd just been going over

1:05:35 some cubby stuff. And he was talking more in a leadership business management context. But it's

1:05:40 like, I tried to apply it to your situation to where it's like, what is the desired end state here?

1:05:46 And then we work backwards from there. Because, again, I'm not big on big, long future plans,

1:05:51 but I think you can see where an end state is and then we're going to reverse engineer this thing.

1:05:55 Yeah, super helpful for me. You also shared a story of forgiveness in that time and what that

1:06:01 could do in a similar type scenario. Man, I don't know that I'm still at forgiveness,

1:06:07 just looking down the eyes and being in transparent with that. But I think that that helped me on

1:06:14 my journey. For me, personal resolution was once he's sentenced and once he whatever is deemed

1:06:22 appropriate for him, I was going to be able to let him go. I don't know if that's forgiveness or

1:06:27 not, but that's not what I'm going to spend my effort moving forward. I want to honor John. I

1:06:31 want to honor who he was and what he stood for. And so I think that was a transition point for me

1:06:37 was was that hearing. You know, everything was decided beforehand. Like I said, he was he was

1:06:46 remorseful the day of he knew what the sentence was going to be. It was going to be a life sentence.

1:06:50 It wasn't trialed. It was a plea deal that was made. If he's ever to get out again, he's going

1:06:57 to go back to jail on John's birthday to honor his memory. And so I knew all that going in,

1:07:03 but the last hurdle was the victim impact statements that were to be read at sentencing.

1:07:07 And man, that was that was a heavy one. I didn't know what to say. I can write anything business-wise.

1:07:16 I've been able to write a book. I could not write one word on the paper to express what I

1:07:22 was feeling there. Like I didn't know how to do it. And so man, it was that point. I was at a low

1:07:28 point in life. Couldn't figure out what I was going to do. I called up my pastor and I said,

1:07:35 Robert, I'm still trying to rely on self in a time where I can't get through. Like,

1:07:41 I don't know what to do now. Like, I think that was even more rock bottom than at the beginning,

1:07:46 because you have to go back to life. And so I still expected myself to be able to perform

1:07:51 at things that would continue to deplete me as I was going forward. And so it was at that point

1:07:57 that I was like, hey, I need some help. And I've never been one to do therapy, counseling,

1:08:03 that kind of stuff. But I didn't know what else to do. And that's where I found myself.

1:08:08 So just to put a bow on him, what was the final sentence? What was the official sentence?

1:08:12 Yeah. So life sentence. And then like I said, if you ever gets out, he has to go back on

1:08:17 John. He has to go back to serve a day for a day. Yeah. And poetic and appropriate all at the

1:08:22 same time. Obviously. Okay, so let's get to John. I got to watch John grow up, right? Because

1:08:29 Facebook, so Facebook can suck a lot. But it can also be pretty awesome, because you can learn

1:08:34 about people and keep up with people. And I mean, they're, they're human beings that love Kelsey

1:08:39 and I, that have watched James and Eli grow up. And they've never seen him in person. Yeah.

1:08:43 So you will see my boys for the first time in person, whenever we get known with this and go

1:08:47 downstairs, we'll probably hear them before we see them just after they're in that banshee stage.

1:08:52 But you know, you bury John, you've got real life. You know, you've got a new family, new house,

1:09:01 you still have your other kiddos, kiddos, right? The other three kiddos.

1:09:07 But at some point, you kind of make a decision as his dad that, okay, it can't just be,

1:09:13 everyone felt real bad for a time period. And then like, that's it. There has to be some sort of

1:09:18 enduring legacy with John, because John had some very specific qualities to him that were very

1:09:26 attractive, like for friends, for family, just in general, had some very godly qualities

1:09:32 that a lot of adults would want in themselves. And they were just natural to John. And so,

1:09:38 what do you even do? Like to pick yourself up off the floor to be like, okay, we're not just

1:09:43 going to remember, but we're going to honor as we do so. Yeah. I think cool thing is, is at the

1:09:48 beginning, I couldn't even think along that front. Yeah. But the cash community did. And so the

1:09:54 things that they did to honor him, like, you know, John was a wrestler. Yep. Man, love.

1:09:59 Love wrestling. You got to come watch him. I think it was JOC or state, one time we were in Oklahoma

1:10:06 City. Man, it just, it was everything to him. John wasn't a big kid. He was pretty small.

1:10:13 He was the smallest kid on team. We tried him in every sport, and he just always had a disadvantage

1:10:17 because of his stature until wrestling, and he super excelled in it. And so, one of the things

1:10:25 that the community did like almost immediately, like a month after, was they did the John

1:10:31 Zersvey Memorial takedown tournament. And man, just almost overwhelms me even now,

1:10:40 thinking about what they did, raised Buku's of money for the family, what the cash community did

1:10:49 paid for all of the services. I mean, there was no out-of-pocket expenses for anything involved

1:10:55 in the services for John, and honored him at the same time with something that meant so much to him,

1:11:03 and something that meant so much to me because we spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours

1:11:09 together doing wrestling. You know, young wrestling, you get to get involved. I was always a part of

1:11:16 the club. I always got to coach with him. So there wasn't many tournaments that I didn't get to be

1:11:20 in his corner. So I'm talking hundreds of tournaments together all over the state. And so to see him

1:11:26 honored in that way with that community is something that started off memorializing him.

1:11:32 And then, like I said, after the transition of my obsession with justice, turning into letting this

1:11:41 man go, turning into honoring John's life, then I could start thinking about what I wanted to do

1:11:46 to memorialize him and honor him and who he was. I remember during one of our conversations,

1:11:51 you said, if something along the lines that you were going to start writing,

1:11:55 the writing might kind of turn into a book. You want to get some of your thoughts down

1:12:01 as it pertains to what went down with John, that that would at least be a level of catharsis for you

1:12:07 to where you can kind of kind of get some of your thoughts out because some people need that.

1:12:11 Like, that's partially why I do this show, right? Because I have these things, these topics, these

1:12:16 philosophies that I just need to, I need an excuse to research and think them through thoroughly.

1:12:21 So that I can cogently present an argument as to, hey, we should think about this situation this way,

1:12:27 this way or this way. But it's also cathartic for me, because it allows me to get, just get the

1:12:32 thought out. Like so I don't feel like I'm screaming into the abyss, but I'm like sending it off into

1:12:38 the airwaves to maybe help somebody else. So like, at what point do you decide, no, I'm not just,

1:12:45 you know, kind of jotting things down, journal style, but this might be a book that could help

1:12:49 some people. Yeah. So for me, it was thoughts that were just keeping me up at night. Like,

1:12:53 I was to the point where I wasn't sleeping. And this was a year after the accident. So like,

1:12:57 I'd gotten to a point where I was able to sleep and function normal again. But then it kind of

1:13:03 came back and everything was just running through my head. So I'd lay there night after night. And that's

1:13:08 when I was talking to you, I talked to Lauren, she encouraged me first to write it down. And that's

1:13:12 when I talked to you and I said, Hey, I'm going to do this and see what it looks like. And as I did,

1:13:17 it started taking the shape of what I thought could help people. I was vulnerable in it. Some

1:13:22 of the things I share in the book, like, I worried when people would read it, man, just to hurt, you

1:13:31 know, the crash itself, like sharing that level of detail, the vulnerability of realizing that

1:13:39 everything that I thought I knew I didn't know anymore, like the stuff we've talked about today.

1:13:43 And even sharing who John was with the world, like, there's a level of vulnerability to that,

1:13:48 like, that's something that was special to me. But is it going to have any impact on the people who

1:13:54 would read it? And the feedback from it is absolutely like people can relate to the specifics of who

1:14:00 John was. And so it's cool. And people, especially who have lost someone, whether it be a kid, family

1:14:08 member, they can relate to the different phases that I went through. And so being able to share

1:14:13 that in the light that touches folks has proven to be beneficial and honors John at the same time.

1:14:19 So what has that been like? Because I'm trying to think of some specific examples.

1:14:26 Well, there's a, you know, there's somebody that I was helping out at a time in the past. And he had

1:14:31 a mares that dissolved for something that he did not do. So we'll just leave it at that. And I'm

1:14:37 trying to help him figure some stuff out. But because of what I do, and because I'm in that

1:14:41 min space, I knew of some other guys that had gone through a similar situation. And so I can be like,

1:14:47 Hey, he he intellectually knows he's not alone. But when that happens to a guy, you feel like you're

1:14:52 the only person. Yeah. And so I'm sure at some point you feel like, well, I'm the only person

1:14:56 that's ever lost a kid. Like, you know, that's not true, but you just feels like that. But then

1:15:02 God starts bumping you into people that wouldn't you know it, they're 10 years past, tragically

1:15:09 losing their kid, 20 years past losing their kid, five days past losing their kid. And now all of

1:15:15 a sudden, are you're in a position where you're gaining wisdom and support from others. But now

1:15:21 you are uniquely suited to help someone else, not because you read a book, but because or because

1:15:27 you wrote a book, but because you experienced it. You've been there. Right. And so I want to talk

1:15:32 a little bit more about that, like kind of what you've seen now that we're years past this thing,

1:15:36 the fruit that has come off of the fact that you

1:15:40 again, struggle. Yeah. I'm tired of people talking about the struggle using struggle

1:15:47 language. I struggle with porn. I struggle with being shaped. If you struggled, you would be

1:15:50 further along by now, you would have arrived at some point. But yet you were at a point where

1:15:55 you were trying to make it to the next hour. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And a lot of people, you don't

1:16:00 really understand that until you're there, until you are calling someone hoping the answer, because

1:16:05 you just you don't know if you're going to make it. Yeah. Right. And you just get that little bit of

1:16:10 support, you get that little bit of support, and then you start, you know, those stretches of time

1:16:14 in between when you really need help start to elongate. Right. But for you, just talk, take us

1:16:18 through some of the fruit you've seen. Yeah. So it's, it's a club you don't want to be

1:16:23 evolved in. Yeah. But you're there. And so I can remember days after losing John,

1:16:29 folks who had lost kids reaching out to me. And some of them, like you said, weren't very much

1:16:34 further along in their journey than I was, still super raw for them, but wanted to be there for me

1:16:41 in my heart because I knew what I was going through. Two people who were five years out that are like,

1:16:47 okay, I remember day one. Let me walk with you. Let me sit here. Let me be there. And so

1:16:53 I don't, it's not even like it's a duty to do that. It's like, I know what you're hurting with.

1:17:00 Like, I don't want you to be alone in these moments. And so that's what people did for me.

1:17:06 And that's what in turn, you have an innate desire to do for other people. Like,

1:17:11 I don't want you sitting alone with these thoughts that I had. I don't want you to sit alone on that

1:17:16 struggle because I know what it did to me. And so man, just talking to people, being there to people,

1:17:21 knowing that you can't say anything in that moment that's going to make it better,

1:17:26 that it can even be chastising to suggest that you know what they're feeling because you don't.

1:17:31 Like everybody's different. And it doesn't, you know, people have said to me, like,

1:17:36 you lost a kid, I can't imagine that. My loss is nothing compared to yours. No, your loss is

1:17:42 super significant to you. Like my situation doesn't demean your loss. Like it's a huge loss.

1:17:49 And I want to be there for you and your hurt because you were there for me and my hurt. And I

1:17:53 want to be there to be able to be an ear, somebody to lean on, somebody to make sure you're taking

1:17:58 care of yourself, or just sit there in silence if that's what you need. Because there was times

1:18:02 where I needed that. Man, no, to do that, to talk to people, to get feedback from the book of,

1:18:11 this is what I need to hear. I felt like God had you write that for me. Like that is where

1:18:17 although it can be depleting, although meeting on a podcast might be uncomfortable for me,

1:18:23 like it's for a purpose. Like God wanted to use a situation that he didn't, he didn't

1:18:29 ordain this to happen, but he wants it to help people that he cares about as well.

1:18:34 Like I think for me it's significant in that the sacrifice that God made through Jesus

1:18:44 became real because I've lost a son. Like if I love you, if it was a choice for me to sacrifice

1:18:53 my kid for you. See you later. I wouldn't do it, buddy. Yep. I love you. James or Squish,

1:18:59 I'm sure you'd say I'd miss you, buddy. That's right. And so like it legitimized in my mind the

1:19:05 sacrifice that God made for us. And like, yes, I was angry at times, but I see what he did for me

1:19:13 in my lowest points. I see who he brought when, how he took care of me when I couldn't see that

1:19:18 he was doing it. And I didn't have to, I could be genuine with who I was and where I was with

1:19:24 him. And it didn't change anything. Like he was still there for me. And so the grace side of God

1:19:30 became so relevant to me for somebody who was type A, achiever. Let's focus on the just side of God

1:19:38 all this time because I align with your thought process. That's the way my brain is wired.

1:19:44 So to experience grace and allow myself to offer myself grace was something that I wasn't

1:19:51 comfortable with, but you got to be when you can't even get out of bed, you got to be.

1:19:55 And so I guess that speaks to that a little bit. I don't know if I got into every aspect of your

1:20:00 question there, but you did. I, I'm curious and I'm not being the, I'm not being voyeuristic or

1:20:08 trying to be incendiary in any way, but the grace of God becomes, becomes real to you because of

1:20:18 what you've experienced and what you've experienced after not just, not just the, the kinetic moment.

1:20:23 But then along with the grace of God becomes the forgiveness of God. And so when we're told to

1:20:30 forgive those that have trespassed against us, it's not because that's just generally good advice.

1:20:36 It's because God through Jesus forgave us and gave us a pathway back to himself.

1:20:45 And so earlier when you basically said you're, you're not there yet with, with John's killer,

1:20:51 unpack that a little bit for me because I'm not saying I wouldn't be in the exact same position

1:20:59 as you are right now. And I think most people in our audience understand that and are not

1:21:04 critical of that position. But that's the other side of, of the coin of the gospel, which is

1:21:11 grace extended, right? A grace that we have to accept. But there's a forgiveness in that as well

1:21:17 because there is a debt that's owed that it's not like, you know, like student loan debt,

1:21:24 we don't just cancel student loan debt. No, you're transferring it, right? You're forgiving a loan,

1:21:28 right? You're forgiving a debt rather as being transferred to the back of Jesus, right?

1:21:35 And so for you, what would you feel like in terms of your internal consternation is with the whole

1:21:41 forgiveness piece? Because some people would argue you're not going to be able to operate in the way

1:21:48 that God does there until you've made the decision to forgive. Yeah. And I've, I've heard this discussion

1:21:54 on, on your podcast with several of folks. I think you and, and Joby have talked about this.

1:21:58 I think you and some of the real sense is a decision, not a feeling. Yeah. And I, and I think

1:22:03 that there's some significant relevance to that. I think at some point it would behoove me to

1:22:09 forgive this man for me. I don't think that the forgiveness is for him, but for me. And I think

1:22:16 part of that was the let go piece of it. I'm going to, I think I'm going to answer this in a round

1:22:22 about way, but you talk about the significance of events that have happened since then.

1:22:28 And in chapter nine, I talk about how, how we can live like John. One of the things that I think

1:22:35 was most significant was at that sentencing hearing. You know, I told you I couldn't, couldn't write

1:22:41 my statement. It took me forever. And I finally was able to get up something that I wanted to share

1:22:46 that day. And I had it prepared, you know, fine tuned, ready to go. Two weeks before the sentencing

1:22:53 hearing was scheduled, I was sitting at church on Sunday and was just overwhelmed. Like, it happens

1:23:00 now. It didn't used to, but emotions are a little bit more raw anymore. And the impact statement

1:23:08 that wasn't going to be heard that day was John's. And he was the one who was affected most that day.

1:23:13 And man, I'm sitting at church and that just overwhelms me. I'm balling. I didn't, I couldn't

1:23:18 talk. And like when I finally got it together and I told Lauren, like that bothers me, and I'm

1:23:23 going to go home and I'm going to write what I think he would say. And I did. And one of the

1:23:30 things about John that was special is, is he would have forgiven that man. And I know that.

1:23:36 And so you said begin with in mind, I know John would have forgiven him. And so that was

1:23:44 the crutch of the impact statement that I wrote on John's behalf is, you know,

1:23:49 this was not fair. My family is hurting. And there's some responsibility that you have to take for

1:23:57 that. However, Jesus forgave me and I didn't deserve it. And I forgive you. And so like,

1:24:05 I prepared that, didn't know if I was going to read it, didn't know if I was going to give it the DA

1:24:10 to read. But I did share it that day. The impact of that, I guess, is something that I didn't

1:24:17 anticipate. So for me, I was going there that day to get this off my chest, to mark that off off

1:24:23 of the list so that I could move on with my life. It never occurred to me that he would have family

1:24:30 there. Yeah. And so I read that for me. His family was losing a son too. They may never see him again.

1:24:41 You don't know what's going to happen in prison. Right. You know, and so they may never see their

1:24:46 son again, brother, uncle, whatever the case may be. And so getting there that day, reading that,

1:24:56 and then after there was a couple of things that were significant that happened, the judge

1:25:01 looked at me the end directly at me. Several people read the statement, but he was looking at me

1:25:08 and he said, "I wish I could have known John." And he said, "I wish I could have had a conversation

1:25:12 with him and I wish I could have watched him wrestle." Man, hits me and then fails even now.

1:25:19 Afterwards, we'd go out after to the gallery and these random people come up and just start hugging

1:25:26 me. And it's his family. And just grateful that I was able to share what John would have said,

1:25:34 grateful that he would have been able to offer him forgiveness, remorse for the actions that were

1:25:42 not their responsibility at all. And then we all got to pray together. And so like the impact of

1:25:48 the people in that courtroom that never even got to meet John was significant to me. And that

1:25:55 motivated me to push and write through and get through the heart. Because if he can have that

1:26:00 impact on that room, who else needs to hear? Who else needs to experience who John was?

1:26:06 And what impact could that have on those folks that need to hear it, that don't know that they

1:26:10 need to hear it? That's why I want to give the book such a good endorsement. Because you sent this

1:26:15 to me. This was before it was even accepted, right? It was early, really early to see what you thought.

1:26:21 Really, really early copying. I buzzed right through it. And again, guys, we spend stupid money

1:26:28 on stupid things. And it's like, you can't find in your budget to buy this book. I need to have

1:26:34 Dave Ramsey on the show so we can talk to you guys. So as we dig into the book, this is one of

1:26:41 the first editions that sent to me and all that. And so I mean, you can obviously get kind of an

1:26:46 idea from the different chapter titles where you talk about the crash early on. But then you're

1:26:50 talking about relational margin, professional margin, spiritual margin, different things.

1:26:54 And then chapter nine living like John is kind of how you bring it all back. But

1:26:59 just give the audience kind of a 30,000 foot overview of the book because we kind of picked

1:27:03 around at the edges. But what do you want people to come away with after they read it?

1:27:08 Yeah, so again, it's a book to honor John first and foremost. The stuff that I have presented here,

1:27:17 though, was very much a practical, I guess, lessons learned from trying to overcome an

1:27:27 obstacle that I didn't think that I would ever face. The front of the book, I don't know if you

1:27:33 can see it, is a guy climbing the front face of a mountain. Yeah, show to that camera right there.

1:27:40 Yeah, yep. So a common theme throughout the book is

1:27:44 when life takes you to rock bottom, which it will, at some point you have to reapproach the

1:27:52 mountain and begin your climb again. And that's where I found myself. Like I said, the anchor

1:27:57 points that were set along my life of the things that I believed in were ripped out of the mountain

1:28:01 in an instant. And I found myself at rock bottom with nowhere to go. I mean, that's where I found

1:28:07 myself for months and months and months. But when you get to the point where you're ready to

1:28:12 reapproach that mountain and climb, things that you used to could have expected of yourself,

1:28:17 you can't deliver on anymore. I mean, your type A, you go, go, go. There's nothing I can't do.

1:28:24 There's nothing I can't accomplish. Well, in this phase of life, there's nothing that you

1:28:29 could accomplish that was easy before. And so like, I mean it, like getting out of bed,

1:28:36 like deciding small things like what to eat, like everything was just exhausted.

1:28:42 And so this navigates the journey. And also it takes a second to take a step back and reevaluate

1:28:52 what's important. So like every facet of your life wants so much from you. If you're

1:28:59 investing in everything equally, what's important? And if you say yes to everything,

1:29:07 how much are you giving to each facet of your life? So I delved into each, each thing that was

1:29:12 important, like I have to make a living for my family. So what do I need to do to be able to

1:29:16 approach my job and be successful in that and not invest too much where I don't have,

1:29:21 you know, areas to give to other things, energy to give to other things. I looked at,

1:29:28 you know, my roles in the church, like I said, I was investing in leading men's groups,

1:29:33 going to different conferences, doing as much as I could to try to help.

1:29:36 I didn't have it. Like for me to get up was a struggle. Even now, sometimes going to church

1:29:44 and hearing worship songs is still a struggle because John loved worship. That was his favorite

1:29:49 thing. And here in those songs, I just hear him sing it. And so it can deplete me. So like,

1:29:54 knowing that I needed to have margin in my life in every area, spiritual work,

1:30:00 responsibilities outside of work, even with my family, like I needed to be able to have

1:30:05 enough of myself to give to them, like navigate help me navigate what to do to move forward to

1:30:11 be successful. Man, I had to say no to a lot of things. Like I really had to reserve myself

1:30:17 for what was absolutely necessary of me. And when you do that, you can start climbing again.

1:30:23 You can start on your journey again. And when you do and you start building margin, when you start

1:30:28 setting your life up with a space where you can truly examine what's important and not take away

1:30:36 from one thing and sacrifice it for something else, you really can start operating and what

1:30:41 your intended purpose is. I know moving forward, like my purpose is to honor John, my purpose is

1:30:47 to help people who have been on a similar journey. And that's why I'm here, like, like this is

1:30:51 uncomfortable for me, but I'm doing it because it's my purpose. Talking to people, it can exhaust

1:30:57 you. Like you said it, you know, what you get reached out to is a burden that you have to take

1:31:02 on yourself. If you don't have margin because you're going in a thousand directions, it's going

1:31:07 to deplete you to the point where you're going to hit rock bottom. So you got to you got to stay

1:31:12 conscious of that in all aspects of life. It's not just a tragic loss like this, like there's

1:31:18 practicality of this, what I present in this book to anybody at every phrase of their life,

1:31:24 like you could be on rock bottom, but you could benefit from this. You can be on the

1:31:29 mountaintop and still implement things that will benefit you for the longer, the longer whole.

1:31:33 And another point that I think that's significant in here, I call it a safety net, you call it a

1:31:39 foxhole. It's a similar thought process. Man, when you fall, you got to have somebody that's

1:31:45 going to catch you. You got to have a group of folks that are going to catch you. You may sit on

1:31:50 guys because this is a men's podcast. And I do think that that's super significant for men.

1:31:54 You can't rely on females for a married man and that creates different angst. But if you have a

1:32:02 group of people that are looking out for your best interests that are going to be there for

1:32:07 you, no matter what, man, that'll help you get through some tough times. And that will call you

1:32:12 out. Hey, you're investing too much here. Are you taking care of yourself? Are you eating? Are you

1:32:17 doing the things that are important to you? And that's essential to navigating life's hardships.

1:32:23 Chris, that's what I tell people all time is like, you have to have men in your life that are

1:32:26 consequential to you. You have to have men that are close enough to you where they can snatch you up

1:32:32 by your shirt. If you're doing something wrong, or they can stop you from doing something wrong,

1:32:37 or they can pull you to doing something right. And that's like, you may have buddies from high

1:32:43 school, you may have buddies that you were in a frat with in college, you may have dudes that

1:32:47 used to work with or dudes you went through basic training with or whatever the thing is. And it

1:32:50 doesn't mean you don't love those people. They're just not consequential to you. Like, I got guys

1:32:54 that used to be like best friends of mine that were here that just don't live here anymore. And

1:32:59 it's like, okay, well, they're just not consequential. It doesn't mean that I won't drop what I'm doing

1:33:03 to go help them. It just means it's going to take a while and I might have to hop on an airplane

1:33:06 to get there, right? And like, you can't have only airplane buddies, right? You got to have

1:33:12 same side of town buddies. Yeah. Right. Because the thing is, is the valley is guaranteed. You're

1:33:18 either in it coming out of it or about to go into it. Yeah. Right. And sometimes it's just your turn.

1:33:22 And, you know, for me, I recently got some news that some very important people in my life are

1:33:28 sick. And, you know, it's just what's my first thought, right? You know, take this to God. And then

1:33:36 it's like, okay, I got to take this to my foxhole. I got to take this to my brothers. Yeah. And it's

1:33:40 like, look, hey, I don't need anything from you. I just need you to know I'm going through this.

1:33:43 And, you know, I may, I may lean on you for something here or there, just just letting you know. And

1:33:48 then then guys start, you know, doing what a foxhole does, they start like blocking and tackling and

1:33:53 trying to figure out, okay, how can we support Kyle in this moment? Yeah. Right. But sometimes

1:33:58 guys, it's like, you got to have someone that when you're on the floor, literally for some of you,

1:34:04 when you're on the floor and you can't get up, right, that you got someone that you know is going to

1:34:08 answer. You know, they're going to be there to pick you up. Yeah. Right. That's going to help

1:34:11 you get to that next hour. That's just going to sit there, right? And just let you talk at them,

1:34:15 right? And so, so where can people get the book? Because it'll be in the show notes because some

1:34:19 people are confused about what show notes means. So if they're listening to this and they just want

1:34:22 to do it the old fashioned way, where can they get the book? Absolutely. It's on Amazon. You can get

1:34:26 it there. Barnes and Noble, you can get there. All of the digital formats, iTunes, Kindle, Nook,

1:34:32 anywhere you can search, just search margin by Chryzerzvi and that'll, it'll be.

1:34:37 Xurzvi Z-E-R-Z-A-V-Y. I'm glad you wrote this because we went to a guy who's last in school.

1:34:43 His last name was Paholsky. Yeah. So it's like, you know, we don't have to try to remember that,

1:34:46 but yeah, it's Chryzerzvi Z-E-R-Z-A-V-Y. You guys can check it out there. But man, that's all for me,

1:34:53 is there anything else you want to get off your chest? I think just that last point that you made

1:34:56 is very significant. The 6 a.m. or the 3 a.m. friend that you talk about, man, I needed it.

1:35:06 And so I can tell you about a couple examples and I think it helps to solidify what you,

1:35:12 because you've been saying it for years and years. Man, it was the week after John passed.

1:35:17 I have a gym in my garage. I was still trying to keep up with it, but my buddy that used to work

1:35:26 out with me, who is a 3 a.m. friend, no matter what friend, going to be there all the time,

1:35:31 he said, "We're going to start working out together at 6 a.m. at least three times a week

1:35:36 and has every week since then." It wasn't something that I could argue. I tried because I didn't want

1:35:43 to. Good luck. I didn't want to commit to it, but he knew I needed it. And so there was times

1:35:48 where we would get together and we'd work out in silence. There was times where I didn't have

1:35:52 much to give and those times that I would pour out my heart. And he absolutely was there for that.

1:35:58 Man, if I didn't have that 3 a.m. friend, I don't know that those first couple months would have

1:36:06 been parable. And so what Kyle is saying on that, what he's told all of us, it's easy to hear,

1:36:12 but you've got to build those now. That 3 a.m. is not always easy to cultivate.

1:36:19 Because if your life is full of family and sports and hobbies and your Netflix habit and your TikTok

1:36:25 habit and your whatever habit, you're thinking yourself, because guys like to lament, "Oh, I don't

1:36:31 have guys like that." That is one of the most common, if not the most common thing that I get

1:36:36 in my DMs and emails is, "I don't have guys like that. How do I get them?" And I say, "Well, where would

1:36:44 you go looking for one of these types of people?" Like, "I don't live in your city. Why are you

1:36:49 asking me? Where do you guys congregate? Where do you guys congregate that you don't want to be like?"

1:36:54 All right, so don't go to those places. Where are the guys congregate that are guys that you

1:36:59 would want to be like? I tell people, "Be careful at churches because you might get a lot of doughy,

1:37:04 frumpy guys that know a lot of worship music. But when your chips are down at three o'clock in the

1:37:08 morning, you're not calling that dude. He's probably too busy pressing his khakis or whatever.

1:37:13 But it's like, where are those people at? Are they at the Jiu Jitsu gym? Are they at the CrossFit gym?

1:37:18 Are they at your place of work? Are they the other dads on your kids baseball team? Are they

1:37:22 PTA? Are they HOA? Like, "Well, where are these guys?" Yeah. Right? And then it's like, then they

1:37:28 start thinking. And then they start thinking like, "Oh." Then you know how it is like when you buy a new

1:37:33 truck, right? And then all of a sudden you see every other truck in town that's exactly like the

1:37:37 truck that you bought. And you're like, "Wait, wait, wait. Did everyone buy the same truck at the same

1:37:40 place at the same time?" No, your brain just turned on for it. You're like tuned up to notice those

1:37:46 things. Same thing in that situation. You're tuned up to look for those types of guys. But

1:37:52 then finding them is not enough. You got to see them. You got to be around those guys. So that's

1:37:58 the big thing. I always tell people like, in a perfect world, you get together weekly and there's

1:38:02 some sort of physical component. Right? Do something hard together. Some guys are in a different

1:38:08 situation. Some guys are in a different age range. Some guys are super, super rural where the nearest

1:38:12 house is 20 minutes away. Like, "Okay." So there's different circumstances. The number one thing is

1:38:17 you got to get together every week. Yeah. So this last Sunday, I talked about my Fight Club group.

1:38:22 It was like all the OGs. All the OGs were there and then some random guy who I didn't know his name.

1:38:27 But it was like, it was Jermaine and it was Shelby and it was Vinny and it was Hanky and it was Russ

1:38:32 and it was Rocky and it was Jermaine. And it was like, it was like all the guys that had been there

1:38:37 longer than I have even known these guys. Do you know what the occasion was? It was Sunday.

1:38:43 That was the occasion. Sunday is seven o'clock and that's where we go. Sunday is at seven o'clock.

1:38:49 And some guys have stretches where they can't come for whatever reason. Some guys are real

1:38:54 consistent. Some guys bebop in and out or whatever. That's the crew. That if something goes wrong

1:39:00 with me, with this house, with anything in my life, with undaunted, with the business, whatever,

1:39:05 they're there. My forging table guys, who was there with me, Barry and Roman in this backyard

1:39:12 out behind here, when they weren't asked to show up, they just showed up. You can lament all day

1:39:17 long, guys, that you don't have fellas like that. But a couple of questions you have to ask yourself.

1:39:21 One, why haven't you looked for guys like that yet? And two, are you a guy like that? Are you

1:39:26 going to answer your phone at three o'clock in the morning? Are you going to inconvenience

1:39:28 yourself? Are you going to come out of pocket with your own money or with your own time or with your

1:39:33 own effort to be there for another man? Because if the answer is no, then you can kick rocks, buddy.

1:39:38 Yeah. Right. Because if you're not willing to be that for somebody else, they're not going to be

1:39:41 there for you. They're not going to be there for you. And guess what? That's exactly what you deserve.

1:39:44 Yeah. And so I don't have a whole lot of patience for guys that lament that and don't do anything

1:39:49 about it. I'm tired of hearing guys, Oh, I lament the fact that I'm overweight freaking kick it into

1:39:53 gear, dude. Yeah. Like, you know exactly what to do. You have super computer in your pocket,

1:39:56 ask chat GPT, how can I not be so fat and worthless? And guess what? It'll tell you it'll tell you

1:40:01 what to do. Yeah. Same thing. Oh, you know, I just wish I was closer to God. Well, what are you doing?

1:40:04 Yeah. Are you going to church or your local body believers? Are you doing Bible study on your own

1:40:09 or with a group of people? Are you praying at all? No. Okay. Well, there I just gave you your laundry

1:40:12 list of things that you need to work at and the things that you need to do starting, I don't know,

1:40:16 five minutes ago. And so it's like, we love to complicate things. We love to lament. But at some

1:40:20 point we do have to get after it. But there I did my own like little false image of this podcast,

1:40:25 but you got me all fired up and launched it. So I will do my outro again. And if you want to say

1:40:29 something else, I don't care. I got none but time. But that is all for me. Is there anything else you

1:40:34 want to go for? No, sir, that's great. I appreciate you in that way. That's important and being

1:40:37 intentional with those things being the guy that you want somebody to be there for you is absolutely

1:40:43 critical for that. For me, for when you need it. Yeah, let's live like John live like John.

1:40:48 Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe,

1:40:51 rate and leave us a positive five star review. If you want to come speak live at your event or on

1:40:55 your podcast, shoot me an email to info@undonton.life. That's i-n-f-o @undonton.life. Follow us on Instagram

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1:41:06 keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undonton.life. And as always, we want to

1:41:11 thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this

1:41:15 podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album on Face Down Records.

1:41:20 The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness

1:41:25 keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.

1:41:55 you