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This is Undaunted Life a Man's Podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
0:57
Chris earth be welcome to the studio. How are you man? Doing good man. It's good to be here.
1:01
Okay, so the audience because when we do these sit downs, these in person sit downs, we don't
1:04
do like my normal intro outro. So you and I have known each other since but it had to have been like
1:09
seventh grade. Yes, middle school. Junior high is what it's called. Yeah, we call who calls it
1:14
middle school. I don't know how they've moved it that way and can shut off. Well, it's also when
1:17
we were in junior high, it was what was it? It was seventh through ninth. Seventh through ninth. And
1:22
they changed it to where it's like six through eight and then nine through ten as high school.
1:26
Is that how it still is? That's how it is a cash. So, Eisenhower junior high school. Go Vikings.
1:32
Go Vikings. That was us. And then, and we, I mean, so the thing is is like you can have a bunch of
1:37
friends like in elementary school and middle school and all that. But then when you start
1:42
like diverging, like some kids kind of go the pre AP school route and some people, you know,
1:46
kind of just do the regular class thing. So we had a ton of classes together because
1:52
once we got to law in Eisenhower high school, then we didn't have like, we had to, we had a lot
1:57
of AP classes, but there wasn't like 15 different AP calculus that you could be in. There was like
2:02
one and it was like that was the hour that you had to do it. So yeah, we've known each other for like
2:06
way too long. Our schedules were basically the same. Yeah, for a long time. And then, and so you're
2:11
in, are you in cash or Elgin now? I'm in cash now. You're in cash. Okay. So that's right. That's a
2:15
suburb of the great big city of lot in Oklahoma. Huge. Where we're from now. Are you from a lot in
2:20
originally? I am born and raised in Lawton. Which elementary school did you go to? Elmore West.
2:24
Well, first I went to Pioneer Park, then I'm West. Okay. So I was, it would have been whatever
2:29
the school was before it was Pat Henry. Okay. So whatever it was called, it was Lincoln,
2:33
maybe Lincoln Elementary and then became Pat Henry. I think it was after it burned down,
2:37
it became Pat Henry. Yes. Or whatever, like a kid burned it down, literally kid burned it down.
2:41
Sounds like Lawton. Yeah. And then I went to Crosby Park. Yeah. That's like the most Lawton
2:44
story ever like kid burn out in school. I can't remember if it was before the kid burned it down
2:48
or not. Yeah. As far as I know, nobody was inside at that time, but literally like we basically kind
2:55
of grew up together at school. And so because we were always in the same classes and different
2:59
things like that. But when I was getting ready for this, because we're we're covering a lot of
3:03
ground today, I don't know if you remember this, but you and I would go play like pickup sports
3:09
randomly. Absolutely. And so I thought it was a really good racquetball player, but you played
3:13
tennis. I was a tennis player. I was a baseball player. So I have hand-eye coordination and I
3:17
can swing, but you played tennis and you took me to Ryan Harder somewhere out on Fort Sill and you
3:23
destroyed me in racquetball. Do you remember this? I do remember that. I was so like, I was
3:29
completely, I don't even remember getting mad and at the time that would have been very up my alley.
3:34
But it was like, I don't even remember being mad because it wasn't even close. It wasn't
3:37
like I was barely there. I was not even in your same vicinity. No, that hand-eye coordination of
3:43
tennis and court awareness and racquetball translators really well. So yeah, that was that was something
3:48
that I was pretty good at. And I do remember enjoying that time very much because you always
3:52
graded everything. So it's good to be able to take you out there. And you would just smile. You
3:56
would just like, because I mean, for me, I haven't played racquetball in forever, but you would hit
3:59
the ball like an inch off the ground. And I would be because I'm a hustle guy, right? So I'm like,
4:05
I'm just hustling and running. And so I'm diving all over the place and to no avail. Or I would
4:10
make this incredible return shot. But you're just perfectly in position. You would just
4:14
ride over the wall. It's so stupid. But you did teach me how you can like hit it off the top of
4:21
the wall to where it skips off the roof and then sends it back all the way. And then the guy ends
4:25
up having to remember. That's awesome. Now, because I haven't played in like over 10 years,
4:29
but I do remember that just destroying people because you just assume the ball is going to end
4:32
up right next to you. So I don't think I did a good job describing it. So guys, if you play racquetball,
4:36
you hit it off of the, you know, the main wall towards the top at an upward angle. And then it'll
4:42
skip off of the roof and then skip off the glass at the very back. And die. But it's coming off so
4:48
fast once it comes off the glass. Like it basically is like taken off towards the wall. And it's
4:53
it's probably going to bounce twice before you get there. Yeah, it's great. Perfect move for defense.
4:57
It wasn't any fun. It was not any fun playing with you. I would play with some of my pickle ball.
5:01
I've never played pickle ball. It's fun. It's not that I won't. It's just that I haven't. Yeah,
5:05
it's a good one, but it'll be addictive. Okay, I know your personality.
5:09
Yeah, see, that's part of the problem is because I got like, I literally just got a compound bow.
5:12
I saw that. Which now every, I got to tell you, I'm not big on modularity. It's why I'll never
5:18
own a Jeep. That's why I like when people get AR's and are like, Hey, did you change how you're
5:22
no, no, no, I want to get it built the way that I want it and then just leave it talking to people
5:27
about bow hunting. I'm just like, I don't know if I want to bow because like, just asking normal
5:33
people what kind of release they use. And then they get into like a two hour long description
5:37
of how they like came to find the perfect release for their body and everything. I'm like,
5:41
rifle hunting, I just get it in the crosshairs, make sure my rifle's sighted in and go bang.
5:46
Well, that trigger. But but you've been compound hunting for a while.
5:49
I have. Yeah. As I had some land, I would take the boys out there and would go compound hunting.
5:53
I enjoyed it. I haven't done it in quite some time now. We've moved off of that land, so I don't
5:58
have a place to go. But I think you'll enjoy it. I think you'll like a lot. There's a lot of sports
6:02
men chip to it. Yeah. And it's going to bite you. See, I don't you everyone said the same thing.
6:08
You're going to get bit by it. It's going to just like consume you. But I just can't have
6:12
another thing to like go through the belt system on, you know, because it's like I'm on
6:17
brown belt in Jiu Jitsu. Yeah. So it's like, you're almost to the rarefied era black belt,
6:21
but then even at black belt, you got to train in for 20 years as a black belt and you're just
6:26
getting your black belt. And so I just can't have another thing. Like when I hear like Joe Rogan
6:31
and Cam Haines talk about bow hunting, I'm just like, I can't I can't be into it at that level.
6:35
Yeah. Like I got to be proficient. I got to be able to make good clean shots on animals
6:39
so they die quickly. But like, I just can't. Looks like you've done some fun hunts though.
6:44
Yeah. Yeah. I've had some it's just really good friends people that have found the show and then
6:49
they're like, Hey, you know, my family got some land over here or Hey, I've got an extra tag,
6:52
you know, over in this state to do whatever. So you, you know, and by the way, guys,
6:56
keep them coming. Keep the offers coming. If you want me to come hunt on your land and kill your
7:00
animals, like I'm absolutely here. But I guess part of the thing too is, did you grow up hunting?
7:05
I did not. This is adulthood. Yeah. So both of us are kind of trying to figure it out as adults.
7:10
But I don't care about racks. No, like I can't eat antlers. I can't eat horns. And so like,
7:19
I will kill the biggest body to animal regardless of what their head looks like. Now it's cool.
7:24
Like I've got a gorgeous red stag downstairs. Like I've got some works right up here in the studio.
7:29
I've got, you know, some good whitetail. But man, like I just don't care. Like I care about meat
7:35
in the freezer. That was my same approach. Okay. It was cool if I got something cool. But
7:39
if a doe came out, I didn't have a problem taking a shot of that. This is going to put meat in the
7:43
freezer. Well, and you have these guys that wait all season for that one buck to come out to show
7:48
itself and they're hunting and they're watching there. I got it. One of my best friends he basically
7:53
was like, there was a particular animal in his land. It was called Goliath, like they had nicknamed
7:58
it Goliath. Seen it for years probably. Oh man. And for years, he's watching this thing. It finally
8:02
became a shooter. But season after season, he's trying to take this thing out. And it was just
8:06
one of those things where he would be at this stand and it was at the other stand. And the next day,
8:11
he'd go to that stand and be at the previous and he tried to like find him. And then at one point,
8:16
he goes to a taxidermist nearby and he sees Goliath in there. And because he just knew it,
8:22
he'd seen this. He'd spend so much time with this animal and like he's at work checking his cameras,
8:26
right? And seeing where Goliath is moving. And he even said, he's like, I'm never going to do that
8:31
with another animal. Basically, what happened is the guy on the property right next door to him,
8:35
put off like an extra bomb, like it's literally like a [inaudible] bomb. And then Goliath literally
8:40
stands up, hops the fence, walks into this guy's field and this whole farmer shoots him.
8:45
Guy hadn't been hunting this particular deer. He just sees like, Oh, well, there's a shooter buck
8:49
and just takes them out. Oh man, that's the worst. Well, I guess like for you, since you and I kind
8:53
of had very similar upbringing, so you know, a lot of academics, a lot of sports, pretty much
8:57
no outdoors, like no hunting, fishing, like camping, that kind of stuff. I guess for you,
9:02
why was it like important like as an adult? Because I mean, you make some dumb mistakes as an adult
9:08
when you're first getting into hunting. And like, I've certainly made some bad mistakes and,
9:12
you know, you feel terrible because it's like, I wish I had made this mistake when I was seven,
9:15
not 37. But like, so for you, what was kind of the motivation behind it?
9:19
I think the group I was hanging out with hundreds outdoors men, knowing that I had boys that I
9:26
was raising, I wanted to expose them to those things as well. And so just getting that group
9:31
together, going out there, getting some land and having an opportunity to do the things
9:35
that I enjoyed but wasn't exposed to. But I can relate to you, man, I didn't want to ask those
9:39
stupid questions like, I feel like I should know this, but I don't. And so I had a group of buddies
9:44
that I could ask those things and I didn't feel bad about doing it. Well, that's kind of the key
9:48
because whether it's Jiu Jitsu or hunting or whatever the thing is, like, you feel like you
9:52
should know how to do it. But what in the ways to avoid being a crappy man series, one of my
9:58
things is don't pretend to know something that you don't. And so like, you know, I'll be out hunting
10:03
with guys that are experienced hunters and guys that I respect and, you know, want them to respect
10:08
and look at me in a certain light. And they'll say, hey, you know, they'll ask me a hunting
10:12
related question and be like, I have no idea what you just said. Can you teach me? Yeah. Like,
10:16
or when they're asking me to do a certain thing. And even recently, I, you know, we, we killed an
10:21
Oryx or I killed an Oryx. And it was so big, the three of us could not lift this thing in the
10:26
back of a canam. So we kind of have to get it right there. And at this point, I've got a plenty of
10:31
white tail. Yeah. Right. But an Oryx is from a kind of a different family. It's not a part of the
10:35
deer family. And so the stuff, you know, I've never gotten an intact heart before, because I
10:40
usually shoot the deer completely through the heart and it's in pieces or whatever. And, you know,
10:45
I was having some trouble getting the guts out. And so the 200s that I was with, Heath and Joby,
10:50
Joby and I talked about this on the skunks and crosses up so earlier this year. But, you know,
10:54
and my knives, I thought I had sharpened them up pretty good. But the knives I brought out
10:59
were a little bit too dull because to get through an Oryx is like skin, like the skin on their back
11:04
was like an inch, an inch thick or whatever. So to get through hide was with some, some different.
11:09
And it's like, you know, I got frustrated and I got kind of like, you know, flustered during the
11:12
process. But it's like, Hey, just calm down. These guys are educated hunters. Like you're
11:16
having some trouble. And I mean, I'm, I'm elbow deep inside, like trying to cut certain things
11:20
away and, you know, the knives not really working out. And I was just like, Hey, I think I might
11:24
be doing something wrong. Like if y'all see me doing something wrong, just, just, you know,
11:27
you just have to have the humility to be like, hello, other adult male. Absolutely. Like,
11:31
tell me what to do now. And they're happy to help you, especially in that hunting community. Hey,
11:35
I don't know what I'm doing here. Can you come take a look, make sure I'm not messing this up.
11:40
And they are, they're happy to come over there night, show you, help you, get their hands dirty,
11:45
and make sure everything's squared away. It's a pretty cool community.
11:48
When I feel like you say community, I feel like it's even more so that in the bow hunting
11:51
community, because people are such nerds about bow hunting, because like you asked them a question
11:55
about their release. They're like, yeah, this is the only context with where I can like talk
12:00
about this, because like if you just start talking about that in the middle of a board meeting,
12:03
it's like it's going to be a little bit weird. But as we were talking as well,
12:06
I don't know if you remember this, this would have been probably our senior year at Eisenhower.
12:10
So we go up to the football field, and it was me and you, and I remember it was our buddy Jeff
12:17
and Craig. I don't want to say their last names, because I don't know if they've disowned me,
12:22
because I have a podcast and say things on it. But there were like four other guys,
12:25
and we were playing three on three football. But again, you have one quarterback that basically
12:30
can't rush in three on three. And then, but the problem was, is we kept mixing up the teams,
12:37
is that if you and I were on the same team, like it just wasn't like, right? So like,
12:44
I would just run go routes, and you would just throw the ball up, and I would just go get it,
12:47
and they just couldn't cover us. So at one point, as a joke, we say, okay, me and Chris versus all
12:52
four of y'all, do you remember this? I do remember this now. I didn't before when you started the
12:56
story, but I do. So what do you remember the story? Because I remember it actually pretty well.
12:59
So I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember us beating all four of them.
13:04
We didn't just beat them. Pretty badly. The brakes off of them. And so because at one point,
13:09
I remember this because it's you and me on. So on offense, none of them could cover either one of
13:13
us. No, we just go fly. Yeah, we would just go. And as soon as if we caught the ball, we were
13:17
basically going to score. The problem was on defense. Yeah. At one point, they do like a
13:22
double I formation. So they've got quarterback, fullback, fullback, running back. And they're
13:27
running basically the triple option or quadruple option numbers on their side. And we're sitting
13:33
there like each of us trying to cover two different dudes and we're trying to watch the ball and
13:37
whatever. But you know, it was kind of one of those things where it's like, if you got one pick
13:41
or one fumble or one sack, because we were playing tackle. Yeah. But I'm pretty sure neither one of
13:46
us were on the ground at all. No, I don't think that day. But that was dude, I thought about that
13:50
so many times about how ridiculous that was. And they were good sports about it because
13:54
like they they knew like kind of the different different level of athlete or whatever. But
13:59
they were pretty shocked to that when it was forwarded to in tackle football that like we
14:05
basically just scored our will. It was actually pretty hilarious. I had forgotten about that.
14:08
That's awesome that you brought that up. That's too cool. Yeah, that was that was a lot of fun.
14:12
So I guess like, you know, so I we both graduate. Did you end up going Cameron? I did. Okay. So
14:19
Cameron is the university there, division two university there in a hometown. I went to UCO.
14:23
And so like I that first year I would come back like all the time, right to Lawton. And you just
14:28
kind of saw who you saw. Like, you know, you'd see certain family and see certain friends and
14:31
stuff like that. And I would come back to the church, but then probably by my sophomore year, I kind of
14:34
have your life there. Edmonds, my new home. And then I was basically coming back to Lawton for
14:40
like Thanksgiving and Christmas. But like for you, you know, you've worked and lived in and around
14:46
your hometown for forever. And I've talked about Lawton quite a bit on our show. Like,
14:49
it can be a rougher city. It's a city that if you don't have your head on a swivel and you're
14:52
not paying attention, you could end up in the wrong neighborhood and it could be problematic for you.
14:56
You know, but for the most part, like when we were in high school, the gangs were kind of funny,
15:00
but there was that big brawl at the 7/11 across from, you know, where the Lawton high,
15:05
yeah, I came over and there was that big like gang fight there. And I felt like that was the
15:09
moment where the gangs got like pretty serious where there was like there, they started shooting
15:14
each other and they started not just, you know, getting in fights, but like killing each other,
15:16
running drugs, running girls. And so I feel like we graduated at the right time, but you kind of
15:22
stuck around. So like for me, almost voyeuristically, like what, what was Lawton, like, how did you
15:28
view Lawton as you were just kind of still in and around that area, you know, even since 2004
15:33
when we graduated? Yeah, I think it changed. I think, you know, you're, you're in the school
15:37
set school segment and you see things one way, you get into Cameron and it's like a whole
15:43
another world. So just like you went to UCO, like, I feel like I left that life of high school,
15:49
even being in Lawton, the folks that I hung out in high school, I didn't really hang out in in
15:53
college. And so you get into that and then you get into your professional world and you see Lawton
15:58
and the outreach and the things that you're supposed to do to be a good civic human. And I
16:03
started getting into those things. And I do see Lawton improving. I think there are a lot of efforts,
16:08
a lot of different things that are being done to make it a better area. I think there's still
16:12
challenges in the schools. I think we'll always have that just because it's a lower income part of
16:16
the state. But I do think that progress is being made and I think it'll continue to be made as we
16:21
move forward. FortSill has a huge impact on that, I believe as well. Yeah, that was always kind of
16:25
the thing because people will say Lawton, but it's Lawton, FortSill. So FortSill, is it still the
16:30
largest artillery base? It is. In the, in the country, so largest army artillery base in the
16:34
country. So a very transient, transient population. So Lawton is basically two things. It's FortSill
16:41
and it's good year. Yeah. Okay. So my dad worked 40 plus years, a good year retired from there. So
16:46
that's the biggest good year plan, I think in the entire good year company. And so if you either
16:51
one of those things, because at different points, people have talked about the good year plan
16:54
shutting down. Yes. People have talked about FortSill shutting down and like what that would do to
17:00
Lawton, because so much money comes because of not only being paid by either FortSill and you know,
17:05
being paid by the US government or being paid by good year, but rental property, rental homes,
17:10
like the schools, because when we were there, Lawton Ike was 6A, Lawton High was 6A, MacArthur
17:16
on the East side was 5A. But now Lawton High is the only 6A, MacArthur is still 5A, right?
17:21
Eisenhower is still 5. Eisenhower is 5 now. Hey, they're either 5 or they've gone on 4A,
17:28
because Lawton is kind of precipitously, slowly kind of losing population. Yeah. And the population
17:34
of the greater Oklahoma City area, which includes Edmund Mustang, Moore, Yukon, I guess you could
17:39
go all the way, Guthrie Norman. Yeah. Like that continues to expand. Right. And people are kind of
17:44
leaving, leaving that area, but I think Elgin and Cash are growing. Yeah. They're spreading
17:48
on the side of Lawton. Yeah. And so that, because I remember like Cash was basically the edge of
17:53
the planet. Yeah. You know, whenever we were growing up, and I would go out there to see some buddies,
17:57
but yeah, I mean, Cash now, it's probably unrecognizable. It is a campus for the school is
18:02
awesome. It's huge. Yeah. Yeah. You have to come down there. I'll have to host you down at my place.
18:06
Oh, shoot. Yeah. I'll definitely come down, you know, excuse to go see the family and then pop
18:10
on out the cash, you know, drive 15 minutes, but I would always go to the Hoppensack. We'd go to the
18:13
Hoppensack and get pizza sound. No, if the Hoppensack is still there, it's still there. It's still there.
18:17
It's still there, but it's still there. I don't know if I would get the pizza now. It's called Max now.
18:21
Okay. How is it? It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have any like financial relationship with Max or
18:26
whatever. Yeah. Because, uh, I mean, we were, we were talking about a song with a buddy at lunch,
18:31
like, bro, I used to just eat candy after every meal. And I like my, my metabolism is still pretty
18:38
much the same, but it's like that feeling of like, okay, I just ate an entire large pizza,
18:42
and I'm washing it down with gummy worms and knee high soda. I think that's just a kid thing. My
18:46
boys try to do that too. And they have the metabolism to support it. I couldn't do it now. I bet you
18:52
could. You still got that fast space. Go, go, go. Yeah. I will say now kind of like, because most
18:57
of my diet is meat. So shout out primal beef or, you know, it's wild game or something like that.
19:02
And I mean, for lunch, I'll have a pound of ground beef as the start of my lunch,
19:06
but then also have cheese and then I'll have a banana and off some peanut butter and I may
19:08
have some yogurt and I'm just like lots of protein. Yeah. I'm trying to get 180 to 200 grams of protein
19:13
in a day. Yeah. And so if you eat a bunch of Doritos or pizza or bagels or whatever, like,
19:18
you'll, you won't even get to 100 now. And so that, that's part of the deal that kind of keeps
19:22
me honest at this point. Like, yeah, you know, if it's Halloween or if it's Christmas or if you're
19:27
having me over your house and you're a lovely bride makes a nice dessert, like, oh, of course.
19:30
Yeah, I'm going to get some partake. But my problem was when I would partake
19:34
with every meal. Yeah. Like every meal had dessert. Yeah, it's easy to get into that habit too.
19:38
So growing up for you, like, what was that like, like being at home? Because like,
19:43
we hydrated with Shasta. Yeah. There was no water consumed in our house. And it was always like
19:48
sugary cereal that we poured more sugar on top of. Same. Like we had fast food every night.
19:53
Same. Exactly. The same mom worked. So that's what we would do. We would eat, eat out,
19:57
sodas would be on the counter. You'd pour you, pour you out of the three liter and just drink
20:01
soda all the time. Yeah, the three liter. And you knew the family was so crazy when they would put
20:05
the three liter in the fridge. So it wouldn't be fizzy, but it'd be ice cold when you put it in
20:10
your glass. It's just like how in the world, because it's like, dude, when I go to my dad's house,
20:14
like over there down the street from Jeff, yes, I would get a case of Shasta on Friday night.
20:20
And that's what I drank until I went home on Sunday. And I would drink through half three
20:24
quarters of a case of soda without thinking about it. No. Yeah. Like, I mean,
20:28
untold amounts of sugar. Yeah. I mean, it was hundreds and hundreds of grams of sugar per day.
20:33
Yeah. So much. Yeah. And now so like, like, you know, we got these jocko energy drinks. I love
20:37
them. And I think what are these? Yeah. Because what does that have? How much does that have?
20:40
And is that any sugar in it? Nope. Zero grams. Yeah. So yeah. And the energy drink has zero
20:46
grams too. Yeah. And then you get into other stuff and it's like, you know, okay, does it have
20:50
sucralose or does it have like some other, you know, type of sweetener and like, dude, now I've got
20:54
this app called yucca that I will scan food in the store before I buy it. Because it'll tell you
21:00
what additives are in there. If any of them are high risk. Wow. Like, because I don't really care
21:04
about sodium content and protein, some would be like, this is too calorically dense. I'm like,
21:08
shut up. But like, you'll eat, you've just eaten certain foods for forever. And you're like, oh,
21:12
this has like seven things in it that could give me cancer that I don't need to have. What's wrong
21:16
with this? Yeah. But just get accustomed to them, the convenience. Yeah. So okay. So
21:21
graduating from high school, go to Cameron. Did you look at any other schools or was it
21:24
basically Cameron? So no, I did. I applied at other schools. Much like you got the president's
21:28
scholarship at UCO, I got the plus scholarship at Cameron. So compared what was offered to me by
21:34
the universities in state and Cameron was the way to go. It was a full ride there. Took into account
21:40
the different things that were important to be like leadership and the opportunities there.
21:44
And then I got a job at a bank in Lawton. And so that made the choice pretty easy.
21:48
Yeah, because those were the only two schools I applied to were Cameron and UCO. And so,
21:53
you know, because about 1000 kids a year or more apply for the president's leadership council
21:59
scholarship to UCO and only about 25 get it from the entire state. And so like, I was looking at
22:05
that like, this is my only ticket to somewhere else. Like I was, I wasn't like dying to get
22:10
out a lot. But it was like my only ticket to do or try anything else. And bro, I remember getting
22:15
into the interview. And I was in my Johnny Cash face, right? Similar now, I was just wearing all
22:18
black, right? So black shirt, black pants, black tie. And we get in there and I swear,
22:23
because I'm a ginger, I can feel when I'm blushing. Turned red. Brother, like I was sweating, like I
22:30
could feel myself getting flushed. And I left that interview thinking, I just bombed, like bombed
22:36
it big time. I mean, the quietest drive home, driving back to Lawton. Yeah. Right. And then,
22:41
but I remember getting the letter in the mail from UCO and I opened it in the car with my dad,
22:45
like he was the first person to know. I got the letter and first person let him know because that
22:49
was, that's basically a full right scholarship to go to, you know, university. Yeah, you know,
22:55
third biggest university here. And you know, that's where I met my wife. That's where, you know,
22:58
I still live in town. I live, you know, 10 minutes from the campus. And, you know,
23:02
it's just kind of weird to, to look back and look at that time period and think about how,
23:08
how different life could have been. Because at different points, I'm like, you know, should I
23:10
join the army? Maybe try to be in a green beret, like, you know, because I kind of lived that
23:14
Spartan lifestyle a little bit, like, how could I have done that? Could I have made it? You always
23:17
kind of wonder, but so like for you, when you got the camera and like, take us, you know, how did
23:22
you figure out what you wanted to major in? Like, how did that kind of like, because you're working
23:24
out of bang. So it's like, yeah, you could do basic business, you can do finance, whatever,
23:28
but like, what'd you end up doing? So mine's business management. And I guess,
23:32
so the struggles for me that I thought about, because I would look at folks like you, and I was
23:36
like, well, did I miss it? Should I have gone somewhere else and lived the college life?
23:40
Because Cameron is a commuter type college. Yeah. They're trying to convert it. It's getting
23:46
better. It's getting bigger. It's expensive to make a commuter college a live here, say your thing.
23:51
And it is a lot in Oklahoma. So you have to factor that in. But no, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the time.
23:57
I felt like I got a good education locally. I felt like the experience of plus made it more
24:05
like a big university, because you did a lot of things on campus. You did community service.
24:09
You know, you stuck with these folks, kind of like our AP folks in high school. So I did enjoy
24:14
that time. I went in thinking I was going to go into pharmacy school. So I started a lot on the
24:19
chemistry side, enjoyed my business classes. Like you said, I was at the bank and I was like, hey,
24:24
I think I could do this for a career. Yeah. And so kind of switched over to that.
24:29
While I was at the bank, I was doing an internship with the bank. And then that led to an internship
24:34
at Fort Sill. And so I've been there for the last 18 years, started my civil service career,
24:39
right after the internship. And I've been out there doing that since that time with the Department
24:43
of the Army. Yeah, my, my mom retired civil service. And so, you know, it's weird. You know, my dad
24:48
worked 40 plus years for the same company. My mom works civil service, basically her entire career.
24:52
And so it's like, that's what I thought, you know, go to college, you know, I started picking up golf
24:57
because I was like, oh, you can't be good in business unless you golf. And just even though
25:00
I hated it, it took me years to realize I didn't have to do that in order to be successful. And,
25:06
you know, the decisions you make, basically, all that stopped when we had James, our first kid,
25:13
yeah, because I always would go back like, okay, what if I had stayed in law? And okay,
25:16
what if I had joined the Army, not going to college? Okay, what if I had tried to go to,
25:20
you know, West Point or the Naval Academy or something like that? So like one of our
25:22
good buddies, Andre, so he went the Naval Academy route, he got offered by all of the
25:26
academies with the Naval Academy, ended up becoming a blue angel. Now he's like, you know,
25:30
teaching pilots all over the world. And you kind of think, you know, and then the GWAT,
25:34
global world and terror was like super hot, right, when we were in school, but then also
25:38
right afterwards, like, I remember talking to my dad about that because I was like, this is
25:43
before we had James. I was like, yeah, you know, I just regret not serving the country and, you know,
25:47
not being in the military, you know, like, because I feel like I would have been, you know, more in
25:51
the spec ops side of things, like, you know, maybe SF, maybe SEAL, maybe Marine Recon, like,
25:55
who knows, and my dad just kind of in his own, you know, folks, he wisdom kind of way. And he's
26:00
like, yeah, and you could be dead, son. Yeah, I was like, yeah, and so it just kind of put
26:06
into the perspective that God has a plan for all of us, right? But we still have free will to make
26:10
the decisions. But he can kind of direct our steps and kind of move us and mold us in a certain
26:16
direction. And it's like, I think I was just busy running someone else's race. Yeah, in my head,
26:21
because I'm reading all these memoirs about war. And I'm reading about the brotherhood and the
26:24
things that these guys were in. And it's just kind of like, but that wasn't my race. I got
26:28
someone else's race. Yeah, like while they were in some, you know, foxhole and Mogadishu or, you know,
26:33
somewhere in Iraq or Afghanistan or somewhere like that, like, I was in class. Yeah, right. And I was
26:39
furthering my education and all that. And then, you know, fast forward to kind of where I'm at
26:43
now with the show, it's like, well, maybe this doesn't happen. And the impact that in Dawn life
26:48
has had on men and on the kingdom, like that probably doesn't happen. Yeah, if it did, it would
26:53
happen. Yeah, you had to have time for that to unfold and see, see what God had in store for you.
26:58
You had to be obedient to the path that was before you. And I think it's natural for all of us to
27:03
have those thoughts of what if I'd have gone this way? What if I'd have done this? But I think God
27:08
reveals what his plan is in the right time. And so one step to the left, and you could have
27:13
been doing something totally different for your life, if I'd have gone to UCO, who knows if I'd
27:17
have to be sitting here, saying for you, you don't know where we would be. And so it's definitely
27:22
good for perspective, for thoughts of, hey, this is where I'm supposed to be, this is why. And we
27:26
don't always have to understand while we're walking that path. But it's good to know that God's got
27:30
our back. And I've learned that a lot more in the recent years. Right. Well, and I'm also curious,
27:35
like, and we don't have to use any particular names, but like looking back on our class, like
27:39
people that we graduated with, and of course, there's the wisdom of parents, like, where you,
27:43
you care so much about what certain people think about you. Yeah. And then these are the same
27:47
people that you'll try to avoid seeing, like running into them in public. You know what I mean? Like,
27:51
it's that same person. If you're walking through the mall, and like, you know, dive into dillards
27:56
real quick. So you don't have to have the, you know, that awkward small talk conversation. But
27:59
like, is there anything that kind of sticks out to you about like anyone that, because there's one
28:03
person that comes to mind that we graduated with that eventually I want to have him on the show to
28:07
talk about it. But anyone that kind of sticks out or any stories about like, okay, like,
28:11
who someone was and how they were like in high school versus maybe what we know about them now,
28:15
or anything like that. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of cool stories of folks that I've
28:18
been able to keep up with social media makes that pretty neat. Definitely would like to talk to
28:23
some of our teachers, specific ones that I know invested in both of us and our futures.
28:28
I'd love to catch up with them. Who's your favorite? What's your, what's kind of your shortlist?
28:33
Because I basically have a list of them. Yeah. I think the bears are at the top of my list.
28:37
So Mrs. Bear, she taught AP English and Mr. Bear taught AP calculus. Yeah. And both of them were
28:42
wonderful. Of course, I went yearbook route. Yeah. Miss Fortin was wonderful. I still talk to her
28:48
some. That's right. We were both in yearbook to the senior year. That's how we were. Yeah.
28:52
Yeah. No, I think those are our wonderful ones. And then I do run into some being down there in
28:59
the community. A couple of them I've run into recently through cash through kids and grandkids.
29:05
And so it's nice when you see them, when you get to touch bases with them. It just, it makes you
29:11
realize how fast time is going. Yeah. When you see folks that are remembered this way in your mind
29:15
and age gets us all. I'm sure I look way different than they have had remembered me.
29:20
Yeah. So it's just, it's cool. It's cool to talk to them now now that I'm an adult and have some
29:24
perspective on life. And they show up for important things. And so getting in touch with folks,
29:29
even my kindergarten teacher came and saw at the book signing. So just a cool dynamic of seeing
29:35
folks that you hadn't hadn't seen in a long time. Yeah. I'll say the teacher, the one that left the
29:41
most indelible impact on me was Mr. Adair. So ninth grade English teacher. So he and I did not meet.
29:48
So I was always at a deficit anytime I went into a class because my sister was a one year older than
29:53
me. She was very quiet, very subdued, never said anything, never ruffled any feathers sat in the
30:01
front row, straight a student, right? So they see another Thompson on their roster and they
30:07
preconceived nose. Yeah. And then I come busting in the classroom. I'm trying to make everyone laugh.
30:11
I'm sweaty. Like, you know, it's just, you know, I'm just like going nuts, right? And there's like,
30:15
what in God's name do we have here? But Chris Wood and I are in the hallway of Eisenhower,
30:23
junior high, right? Our next hour is Mr. Adair. Okay. But we didn't know who Mr. Adair was. Like,
30:29
we didn't know whatever. And so Chris and I are just getting after each other. And like,
30:32
we're like fake fighting in the hallway, like punching each other and all that kind of stuff.
30:36
And guess who comes and breaks it up? Mr. Adair. Yeah. And so he knows that we're in that class.
30:42
Or I guess he didn't really know, but he breaks it up. And then like, it's 30 seconds before the
30:46
bell. And so we walk into class, you know, whatever number. And it's his. And we were both like,
30:50
Oh, gosh. There's no way. There's simply no way that this is how we met our teacher. But that was
30:56
it. That's how we met John Adair. The first thing he had to say was basically stop being knuckle
31:00
dragon morons. What's wrong with you? But two things that I loved about him, because he was a
31:06
great teacher, right? You know, he kind of brought some of these stories to light. I was not a great
31:09
reader, still not a great reader, even though I read a lot. But there, I kind of had a, he would
31:15
do these we would do these book studies, right? And we would have 100 question tests, right? And a
31:20
90 to 100 was an A. Yeah. Right. And so you can only miss, you know, 10 and keep an A. Yeah. In like
31:25
two tests in a row, I got an 89, right? And I mean, you and would in like her gun or other and like
31:32
all you super brainiac kids, you're all sitting there with your 95s, your nine sixes. And I got
31:37
in my 89. And I'm just like, because I got grounded if I got bees, right? Like if I, you know,
31:41
it was a a's, a's or nothing except an AP chemistry, because my parents know I'm like sort of half
31:47
retarded. But like, you know, with the English class, like, no, you come on with a's. And so
31:51
the third time, there was like the third test, third big test. And I am super nervous. I get an
31:56
89 again. So when Mr. Adair came up to give me my scandron, he goes, son, after I got the scandron
32:04
out, I went back and I hand graded it. And I just made double sure that the answers were the bubbles
32:10
that you put and that the bubble, you really did get an 89. Yeah. Like I was, but the fact that he
32:16
took his time because he kind of knew like he knows what's happening in the room. He knows
32:20
people are giving me crap for getting to be. But that's a little story. I don't know if you remember
32:24
our ninth grade baseball team that was with Tyler Hill and yes, Kyle Thorin and all. So we
32:28
went undefeated. We were, we were amazing studs. Yeah. And my parents were separated at that point.
32:35
And so if my mom was out the game, my dad would basically be in the truck in the outfield,
32:39
you know, but there was a particular game where my mom wasn't there. So my dad's sitting in the
32:42
bleachers. Well, guess who comes to watch our game? Mr. Adair. And he sits next to my dad and
32:48
they strike up a conversation with one another. And I remember that game because I went like three
32:52
for four with a home run and like seven RBIs and like I had a, I had a game. Right. And he just
32:58
sat there. He sat there with my dad for the entire game. Yeah. And just talk to my dad. Yeah.
33:03
About baseball, me, who knows? Yeah. But he sat there and he didn't make a big deal about it. He
33:09
didn't wait for me out to the game and say proud of you son or you know, he just came to watch you.
33:13
He just came to watch. And I knew he was there and my dad talked about it later and that for whatever
33:17
reason that always stuck like stood out to me because it's like he has other things to do. Yeah.
33:24
Then to come out to, you know, a four o'clock game, right, you know, to watch us beat, you know,
33:29
Duncan or, you know, out us or somebody like that, just beat the brakes off some random team.
33:33
But he was, he, he had several students that were on the ball club and he cared. Yeah. And he cared
33:39
as well. He invested in folks. Yeah. He would be cool to have on because he's got that DJ MC voice
33:44
anyways. So he would be really cool. So freaking jealous. What was the rumor that he couldn't,
33:49
but he didn't blink. Was that the rumor? Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. I think he has something
33:52
like crossed up with his redness. So he only blinks whenever he thinks about it. Yeah. I think
33:56
he's gonna make himself. We would just be staring at the whole class. Yeah. Talk about it. Yeah. Yeah.
34:00
And he would never actually do it. But the other person that came to mind who I would love to get
34:04
on some point is Jeff Elbert. Yes. So Jeff, you know, I remember, you know, seventh, eighth grade,
34:11
you know, wearing Goldberg and, you know, some call Steve Austin t-shirts really into wrestling.
34:14
Yeah. But then he kind of went down. He sort of got mixed up with some dudes and he went down the
34:19
gang bang and pathway. A rough, rough go at it. Yeah. And I mean, and at first we were, we just
34:23
thought he was, you know, really got too far into the rap scene. And but no, he was like,
34:27
he was really living that life. Yeah. Yeah. Living the gang life. And you want to talk about Jesus,
34:33
natching somebody up. Yeah. Like I get, I get teary eye just looking at what he posts on Facebook.
34:38
Yeah. He's got a beautiful wife, beautiful kids. He he's a teacher and have on high wrestling coach
34:45
at law and high. Also has done some pastoral work. I'm not exactly sure what the type of full-time
34:52
or part-time deal. But like, he just can't say a sentence without talking about what Jesus did
34:57
for. And he's given back, given back to the kids, like eight heirs and bears, like he's really
35:02
investing in those that are at lot and high. I think he knows what they're going through,
35:07
what they've been through because he was there himself. And so to see him give back,
35:11
to see him make that turn and do what he's doing, it's, it's awesome.
35:14
When I've seen like pictures of him, like he started a chess club. Yeah.
35:18
But I think if I'm, if I'm remembering correctly, like in order to be a young man in the chess club,
35:23
you have to wear like a, like a tie, like a dress shirt and a tie or whatever. I may be
35:28
conflating some stories here, but he's always posting pictures with, you know, these kids. And
35:32
the thing is, is again, a lot of these kids, it's kind of hard to grow up in Lawton and not get
35:37
clicked up because there's so many different gangs down there, especially if you come from
35:42
one of these communities and one of these, you know, family systems where, you know,
35:45
mom and dad may have both been hovers. Yeah. And so what are you going to do? Yeah.
35:48
Just just go to school. Like, yeah, you're, you're probably going to, you know, join the gang or
35:52
whatever. And you know, he's dealing with a lot of kids that are like that, but he's just holding
35:57
them seemingly to a higher expectation. It's like, no, we're not going to, we're not going to
36:00
sack our pants and we're not going to, you know, we're not going to go get gang tattoos as a kid,
36:05
and we're not going to do all this kind of stuff. And like, because to this day, he's got some tattoos,
36:08
yes, keep covered up while he's. Yeah. Where's those long sleeves? You know, and, and that kind of a
36:12
thing. And yeah, but it's different when you can point, it's like when Bragg Lynn was here,
36:16
that make her out of Lubbock, like, you know, he has an addict come into his shop. It's not,
36:20
hey, you shouldn't do drugs, drugs are bad. Don't do drugs. He's like, look at my arms. Yeah,
36:24
I've been there. Yeah. My arms are all jacked up from injecting meth, man. Like, I know exactly
36:28
what you're going through. Yeah. But Christ is bigger than that. Yeah. And so that, that's the one
36:33
that sticks out to me of all the people that we went to school with. Yeah. Where like someone who,
36:37
he and I haven't, you know, kept up like super, super tight or whatever. But he's the one that kind of
36:43
sticks out. Because there's been people that have like ran for office and doing like stuff like that.
36:46
But you know, I don't really care about any of that. His redemption story would be powerful.
36:50
And what he's instilling in this next generation, I'd love to hear that podcast. You know, I listened
36:55
to this and have since the beginning. So yeah, it'd be cool to get him on here and share,
36:59
because I think he could relate to a lot of people. And I think his story would resonate with
37:03
those that listen to it. Yeah, I'll, I'll hit him up. We got to get him up here at some time. But
37:07
yeah, I actually do want to talk about that because.
37:11
The undonal I think has been weird. Okay. It started out with a devotional in 2016.
37:16
And I've told the story a bunch before, but for anyone that we get new listeners every week,
37:20
we're so thrilled to have you guys. But I was clicking through the U version Bible app.
37:25
All the men's devotions were just awful. Like they, they were literally like women's
37:29
devotionals that have been repackaged for men and just put in the man category. Yeah.
37:33
You know, my church at the time, they were the ones that invented the U version app. You know,
37:37
they said, well, you can write one to submit it. And I didn't know that. So I write a 21 day
37:41
devotional. They accepted it. Oh, that's cool. I just forget about it. Six months goes by.
37:44
Oh, boom. It's like the second most Redmond's devotional in the history of the app,
37:47
only behind Craig Rochelle's. And he's the pastor of the church that founded the app, right?
37:51
Yeah. You know, makes sense. He gets the best marketing positioning and all that.
37:54
And so I'm like, Oh, geez, like there's something here. And you know,
37:58
U version wants me to just write another devotional. And I was like, I don't want to do that. I'd rather
38:02
just, you know, do what I did in college a lot, which is put some bullet points on sheet of paper and
38:06
then just flow, which leans to kind of the podcast medium. But dude, there was no, like this wasn't
38:11
in the plans. Yeah, like two home studios, like multi camera setup, number one podcast for Christian
38:18
men in the world, number one men's devotional podcast with a daily blade. Yeah, like none of
38:21
that was like the plan. It was like, I've got some stuff on my chest. I want to get it out there,
38:26
as opposed to getting into Facebook wars with people. And if you know, I never have more than
38:31
10 listeners that don't live in my household, well, I've worked as under the Lord, and I can
38:35
move on and do something else. But like, how did you even know I had started one? Because you, I think
38:41
were our very first monthly donor. Oh, yeah. Like, I think it was you because you it was like 20 bucks
38:45
a month or some or 25 bucks a month or whatever. It was either you or Reg Aldrich. So shout out
38:49
to Reggie and I went to college together. Because I remember whenever y'all, like when I got the
38:53
emails that y'all signed up to be monthly donors, I remember being like shocked, proud, like nervous.
39:01
Yeah, I was just like, Oh my gosh, like, what if I say something like awful and they get
39:05
disinvited to their Thanksgiving? Like, you know, I just felt, but it was like validation from
39:10
men that I respected and men that I had spent a lot of time with a different parts of my life,
39:14
like, okay, they're validating that this is stuff that's valuable to them. But like,
39:17
how did you how did you know I did that? I can't remember how I ever time so yeah, I was I was
39:22
leading a men's group through different things at different times. And the way I got connected with
39:27
it was through the U version Bible app. And so I did that and I challenged the men in the group
39:32
to do that. And we went through it and we talked about it along with what the other deal that we
39:37
were doing. And man, then I started, I think we've reached out and we talked and we reconnected.
39:42
And then we've just kind of kept up since then as soon as I heard that there's a podcast,
39:46
I started subscribing and listened to everything. And our views line up on a lot of the points
39:51
that you make. And so I just couldn't get enough. And then as it's grown, I just continue to take
39:56
in the content. Appreciate what you're doing. Appreciate that you stay true to your convictions,
40:01
no matter what. We may not always see eye to eye. I know, you know, you encourage that. And I think
40:07
that's great because you can get on here and you can discuss those things. But man, I just
40:11
appreciate the work that you're doing. I appreciate that you stay true to who you are. You don't
40:17
apologize for it. You know, you're Bible based. You know that you're solid in your foundation.
40:21
And man, that's something I get behind. I appreciate that. And before my editor gets
40:26
matching, let's move that mic in front of your face. Sorry about that. Drifting just a little bit.
40:29
No, like, so I'm curious for you because it's kind of like, you know, if someone's on like a
40:34
fitness journey or a weight loss journey or a bodybuilding journey, they're with themselves
40:40
every day. Yeah. And so they don't see how far they've come, right? But then they run
40:44
in someone hasn't seen them any year and they're like, Oh my gosh, look at you and all that. Yeah.
40:48
So you've been listening since the single digit episodes. Yes, sir.
40:51
Like we're closing in on 800 episodes. Yeah. And you've listened to basically all of them. Yeah.
40:58
Like so pretty much. Yeah. When so when I was only doing first 99 episodes or solo. Yeah.
41:03
Episode 100 was my first interview. Okay. So now we do interviews. Okay. Well,
41:07
now we're doing two episodes a week. Okay. Well, now we're doing forging table. Yeah.
41:10
Okay. And then what does that look like? And then, okay, offshoot, we've got the daily blade
41:14
now with Jobe like, Oh, we've got ask a passer. We've got from the Senate with Mark Wayne Mullen.
41:18
We've got all these different like modalities within the show. You've kind of been along for the
41:21
ride. And so like, is there anything that you, you have noticed about, I don't know, like the stuff
41:29
that I cover or my presentation or like how this is evolved? Because I will always remember this,
41:33
I started the podcast the same year I started Jiu Jitsu. Yeah. And so I started Jiu Jitsu the
41:38
summer of 2017. And this podcast started like November of 17. So like, is there anything that
41:45
you've kind of like noticed as you like look back on all this? Well, I mean, just like look at who
41:49
you've had on the show. I mean, that's pretty cool. Yeah. If you take a bunch of killers,
41:54
a step back and look like you're influencing a huge audience. And what you're sharing
41:59
is great. I don't know about this episode. You've kind of taken a step back, but I won't hold that
42:04
against you. I think we're pretty forgiving. But anyhow, no, like, just the things that you've
42:10
talked about throughout the time, like what you've learned, like this setup is incredible.
42:14
You know, you're talking about the pop sound of the P's when you first started, man, like.
42:19
I'll show you our first studio. It's otherwise known as a closet downstairs. That was just big
42:24
enough for me to slink in and close the door behind me. I literally had my laptop on this closet shelf.
42:29
I had my mic attached to this shelf and it would be right here. 50 dollar mic from Amazon.
42:34
And I get really animated when I talk and this is before I did video.
42:37
Are you hitting the walls?
42:38
Bro, I was in there in my underwear. But I mean, dude, there's the whole like
42:42
closet's full of sweatshirts and there's blankets and there's all kinds of stuff.
42:45
So it sounded pretty good. I bet.
42:46
Because it was all dead in there. But like, I would be so hot when I would be done recording,
42:51
I would open up the closet and I finally got a little bit of air in there or whatever. But like,
42:56
that was the first studio. The next one was a slightly bigger closet on the other side of the house.
43:02
And then I move up here to that little nook area that you can see in the studio.
43:06
And then we expand to, you know, forging table. And then we expand to a three camera setup because
43:10
of a, you know, a very, very generous donor that wanted to see, you know, some better visuals.
43:15
And then now we're doing in studio stuff. Like you're one of my first in studio people.
43:20
And so it's just kind of working out well, because of the book that we'll get to in a second. But
43:23
yeah, that.
43:25
Man, I was playing.
43:26
Yeah, and absolutely. And how cool is that when you can take a step back and look at the closet
43:31
you started at? And you take a peek around here and see where you're at. I mean, that's,
43:35
that's just God ordaining your steps. You know, the right people at the right time,
43:39
investing you and you being obedient to what he's called you to do. It's encouraging to see, man,
43:44
I'm proud of you. I'm proud for you.
43:46
I appreciate you saying that. And, you know,
43:48
this is where people would normally insert something super Christianese sounding. But,
43:54
you know, people have heard this before, but at some point you just kind of lay your yes down.
43:58
Okay, there's, Lord, there's my yes. You know, you slide across the table.
44:02
Okay, so now what? Like, what do you want me to do? And that, that's why I tell people, like,
44:08
a lot of business schools and things, they try to get you to put it, you know, your three to five
44:12
year, five to 10 year plan together. It's just like, bro, God's got to look at that and be like,
44:16
that is so sweet and cute. You don't think you're going to get sick in the next, you know, a few
44:21
years. Yeah, you think you're still going to have that job here's life. Yeah, you don't think anyone's
44:25
going to get, you know, you know, anything's going to happen. And your life can just, how many
44:31
people's lives can completely change with a phone call? Yeah, right. And you just have to put your
44:38
yes down and then you just have to take a step at a time, step at a time, because like, if I,
44:44
it was never the plan to be a professional podcaster and speaker, but you know what also I didn't have
44:49
on my bingo sheet for a couple of years ago, collapsed vocal cord that I've been dealing with
44:54
for however long in two surgeries, the first one of which was not successful. Yeah.
44:58
I think my career is over. Right. There was like an atomic bomb dropped on my family last year in
45:04
my extended family and, you know, found out some just craziness. And I thought that this was done
45:08
then too. Also not on my bingo sheet. No. And so, but it's like the moment you get in the game,
45:13
Chris, that's why I tell guys that I coach, that's what I tell guys, like you is, if you're on the
45:19
couch in terms of your spiritual life, and then you get up off the couch immediately say it's like,
45:23
okay, target. All right. Yeah. Like you want to go? Let's go. Let's dance. And now he doesn't
45:28
always defeated. Right. He doesn't know that he has no shot. He only has as much of a shot as you
45:33
allow. And I mean, that's why I go back to things like Psalm 23. It's like the point of Psalm 23 is
45:36
not that God delivers you from the valley. It's that when you're in the valley, he's there with you.
45:40
Yeah. Right. And it's better to be in the valley of shadow death with God than to be, you know,
45:44
on streets of gold without him. Right. Kind of a thing. But we do need to talk about your book.
45:50
Yes. So we got your book right here. It is called Margin Guys. This is in the show notes. So you can
45:55
go and check this out. Please go get this book. It is in the show notes. This is, you know, put out
45:59
with a small group called Fulton books. And so not, you know, we have a lot of guys on here from like
46:04
major publishing houses and all that. And you know, they're, they built in, you know, tens of thousand
46:08
dollars worth of loss and all these types of things. And you're that you're not putting this
46:11
together to get rich and all that type of stuff. But we'll start slow and we'll work our way through
46:17
it. But there's a long story before we get to this book. So where do you want to start?
46:21
You mentioned a phone call that changes everything. And I think that's where this started. That's
46:27
where my journey started. You know me, you know, my background. I was a Christian. I was doing the
46:33
things that I thought that I should be doing. But I feel like I was doing it more in a self-reliant
46:39
state than I want to have been admitted. You know, I think back to the time I was living on a
46:48
mountain top, but I was doing it thinking it was in my power. I felt like I was doing the things
46:55
that I was supposed to do. I was serving. But I don't know that I was motivated by the right things.
47:01
And I say that because when you get that phone call, that becomes super apparent to you. The phone
47:07
call that I got that took me from the mountain top to the valley was that my son, who had turned
47:15
13 on September 21st, 2022, was at OU football game with his mom, stepdad, and best friend.
47:22
This was four days after his birthday. I had seen him that morning. We had a football game for
47:28
another one of my boys in Altus. So spent time with him there, knew he was going up to the game,
47:34
visited with him, said have the time of your life, send me pictures, text me. And he was, and he was
47:39
having the time of his life. After the game, he was coming back. It was a night game. I was out
47:46
at the house that we just built with some friends. We were having a barbecue, was dried in. I wasn't
47:53
there yet. We weren't living there yet. The house was just something that we were enjoying spending time
47:58
at. Man, it was a great night. Peaceful, stakes, filet mignons, I mean, everything that you would
48:06
want, hanging out with friends, music, corn hole, just enjoying life. We were staying in the house
48:12
for the first time that night. Pat air mattresses, no electricity, just kind of enjoying.
48:18
Set up the air mattresses, brought in the blankets from the truck. We're going to lay down
48:24
and the phone rang. And what I was told was there was an accident and that it was bad,
48:30
and that they could provide updates on everybody in the vehicle except my John.
48:34
And so as soon as we heard that, another friend that was there with me, his boy was my son's best
48:40
friend. So we hopped in the truck and we headed north up 44. The crash happened on 44 just past
48:47
that McDonald's there in the median. And we got from cash to there in like 40 minutes. I mean,
48:52
we're flying. But again, phone calls are coming in and we could get updates on everybody except John.
48:58
So I saw a helicopter on the north side of the McDonald's. We pulled in there, got out,
49:05
rushed over there to see if they were working on John and that's why we couldn't get any update.
49:09
It was not him. It was another one that was in the vehicle that was being metaflighted off.
49:14
And they directed us to where the crash was. So we went over there and got on scene.
49:20
Highway Patrol was there and he told me that John didn't make it. And so you're 30 minutes
49:26
ago up here and then all of a sudden you're rock bottom. And everything that you thought you knew,
49:32
everything that was important to you an hour ago, no longer even matters. Everything that you believed
49:39
an hour ago, you don't even know if you believe anymore. I mean, it's something that I don't even
49:45
know really how to explain what those moments brought on you. And then not just those moments,
49:53
but from that point on. And so that's where that night left me. Just agony, everything from that
50:02
point on was just agony. And so that's the beginning of the book. From that, of course,
50:12
you have to go through the funeral services. The part of the accident that really was haunting to
50:19
me as a dad is that the driver of the vehicle was drunk and on meth. Multiple offenses prior
50:26
to that. And he was coming home or he thought he was in Oklahoma City driving down 44 towards
50:33
Lawton and he hit that vehicle going in excess of 100 miles an hour left the scene. You know,
50:39
my John was there by himself and that guy left. And so beyond just the initial shock, I had to
50:47
deal with all of the, I don't know if hatred's the right word because I tried to minimize hatred,
50:54
but feelings towards a man who took the life of my son unfairly, shortened life of my son unfairly.
51:01
And so from, from a mountaintop to this is my new reality was a huge shock for me. Hey guys,
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51:21
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51:28
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53:28
So to to go back, and I know this is, this is no fun, but obviously there's value here and
53:38
there's a lot of nuggets that I think would be important for our audience. But
53:45
you have, you have several kids, but the ultimate nightmare for a parent, you know,
53:50
he's losing a kid. And I remember when I heard about it, just, uh, you know,
53:56
just hurting for you, hurting for your, um, you know, john's mom. And you just, you automatically
54:04
see your kids. Yeah. And, but then you find out about other people that this has happened to.
54:11
Yeah. And it's always, there's always an unjust thing about it. And I don't remember the exact
54:17
details because it's kind of hard when you reach out to somebody after finding out something like
54:21
this. Because what in the world do you frickin say? Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. And everyone
54:26
just defaults so that if there's anything I can do for you, let me know. And I, as I said before,
54:29
I hate that because all you're doing is transferring a burden on to someone that's,
54:32
you know, basically dying inside. Hey, can you come up with something to do? So I feel better.
54:38
Yeah. Something for me to do. So I feel better. But when you go back to those early days,
54:42
you know, as a Christian, what does that do to you when your innocent child is,
54:49
is killed by somebody? And you weren't there because there, there's complicated feelings there
54:55
because you want to talk about looking back like, okay, well, what if you had taken them to the
55:00
game? Yeah. What if, you know, what if he had stayed with you and stayed on the air mattress
55:04
that night? What if, you know, the direction of your, your family had been different and, you know,
55:10
every circumstance on the planet is there. And so that car is not even there for that guy to hit.
55:15
Yeah. So go back there and kind of take, take us through your process and your journey through
55:20
those feelings. Yeah. And I think I delve into some of that in the book. I feel like as the man of
55:26
my family, I'm responsible for what happens. I feel like as the man, I'm supposed to lead in a way
55:34
that protects those that are in my family. I put it in the book as guarding my garden. My family
55:45
is my garden and it's my job to protect them. Your mind can be so cruel. And I think you and I
55:51
talked about this because you checked on me quite a bit. And I think that I would look for fault
55:57
on my side that led to this happening. And man, your mind will torment you. Like all of those
56:04
things that you talked about would keep me up at night. You like, if I had done this differently,
56:08
would my path have been different when John had been here? There wasn't much directly that I
56:15
could have done that night. However, there was all of these things up to that night that if one
56:20
thing had been different, he might not have been in that car. And so the responsibility of the
56:25
weight, the heaviness of that man, it just drowned me. It, it tormented me. I felt like I was a prisoner
56:31
in my mind of those torturous thoughts, and I couldn't escape them. You know, you would challenge
56:39
me to think about things. You know, you say you don't know what to say, but I can think back to
56:44
some of those early conversations that although I don't know that I could receive them in those
56:49
moments, they were beneficial for me to hear. And they would resonate in my mind afterwards
56:55
when those thoughts would hit. Like, okay, no, this is, this is not where I need to spend my time.
57:00
Didn't always work, but it helped. And so I think that that's important to know that
57:04
when you don't know what to say, but you're, you're being obedient and you're following,
57:08
you can help folks and you did help me. And so, you know, those kinds of things are important.
57:14
I think from the Christian aspect, man, there was a lot to unpack. Like I said,
57:21
everything that you think that you know is a doubt at that point. Like, I know God's good.
57:28
I've seen him do so much good in my life. I was angry at him. Like he didn't do, he wasn't driving
57:36
the car. He didn't cause that accident that night. But my mind, my hurt, my grief didn't allow me to
57:43
understand why he didn't stop it. And so I still struggle at times with that, even knowing that
57:48
God is good, even knowing that he has a purpose in this story, even though that he knows that
57:55
John's story can help other people who are in hurting situations, I still wrestled with him.
58:00
And I think that there was benefit in that. I think that, you know, I align with a lot of your
58:07
thoughts on, you know, we need to focus more on the line of Judah aspect of who God is.
58:12
And I lived that way where I approached him with a reverence and fear and what I would want
58:19
to see as a father figure in my life. I don't think that I gave enough to the gray side
58:26
until I needed it. And so learning that side of God in a way of, man, I don't have to come with him
58:35
with the appropriateness of what to say or have to be perfect in my appearance to approach God.
58:40
Like I can be mad. Like I can have those thoughts that you're not supposed to say in a church to God.
58:47
And he's still going to be there with me. He's going to show me his character. He's going to walk
58:51
through me because when I was self-reliant, I didn't depend on him. I knew he was going to be there.
58:58
And I tried to do the things that I knew were right, but I didn't rely on him. I didn't allow
59:03
him to be God. I tried to hold on to that control. But when you get to the point where you're at
59:08
rock bottom and you can't even decide what you're going to wear that day, like you have to take a
59:13
backseat role and allow God to be who he wants to be in the relationship with you. I mean, he
59:18
carried me. He carried me through a lot of days where I didn't know how I was going to get through.
59:22
You know, prior to that, it was a checklist of, okay, successful at work, successful family,
59:28
built the house, do the things that you're supposed to do. None of that mattered, man.
59:31
Nothing mattered. And it reprioritized the things that were important, which were the people in your
59:38
life making sure that the ones that you love know that you love them. And then just getting back to
59:44
a point where you could be the man that you need to be moving forward. And that's a, that's a
59:48
journey, a great journey that I think I'm still on. I'm still learning day to day from.
59:53
And I've said this before, and it's one thing to say it in the, like, in the,
1:00:00
like the ethereal or in kind of the philosophical world. And it's another thing to say that in when
1:00:07
it's, when it's happening to you. But when a little kid dies and you hear about on the news and
1:00:15
something like that and someone says, Oh, you know, how could there be a good God? You know,
1:00:18
this five year old girl was kidnapped and raped and brutally murdered and all that. Like, how
1:00:23
can any good come from that? When you say something like that, you're taking the seat of God,
1:00:28
looking at a singular situation between two human beings and saying, net negative, there's no way
1:00:34
it can be any way else. Yeah. But you have no idea all the things that kind of come off of a singular
1:00:39
story. It could be someone that attends the funeral that, you know, Christ reveals himself
1:00:46
to them at the funeral. It could be scholarships that are created in a kid's honor. It could be
1:00:51
any number of positive things that happen. And when you say that there can't be a God because
1:00:56
something like that happened, you're, you're claiming to have knowledge of all these disparate
1:01:01
impact points that stem from that moment don't that don't end there. They they start there. Yeah,
1:01:07
right. But when it's your son, yeah, that's it's just not it's not cute saying anymore. No,
1:01:15
but, um, and we'll get to the impact that that John's memory has had and beyond that. But I want
1:01:22
to talk about the man because what I remember a lot about the aftermath is you and I would talk a
1:01:28
lot about the guy that killed him. Yeah. Because situation is not just over after the funeral is
1:01:34
over. Right. Right. Because this guy was caught. He was arrested. There were charges filed. There
1:01:41
were illegal proceedings. And I'll know how much you can you can share on here. But I remember
1:01:45
during those different proceedings, you weren't calling me asking me for legal advice. You weren't
1:01:50
calling me asking me it was like, Hey, I hate him and I want to kill him. Yeah. And to be honest,
1:01:56
I don't remember what I said other than I was just trying to listen, God, to give me something
1:02:01
here. Yeah. Like a God, I got nothing like I don't. So whatever you heard in those moments,
1:02:07
like it was filtered through this goofy head, like, you know, out my face hole. But I just like,
1:02:13
you know, you never deal with that. And I mean, the DMS I get in the emails I get from people,
1:02:17
they're just heavy man. Yeah. Because people listen to me for a few hundred hours and all of a sudden,
1:02:22
they feel like they know me and they don't have anyone else in their life that they can turn to.
1:02:24
So they, they message a podcaster, right? Yeah. In their moment of need, right? Everything from,
1:02:30
Hey, man, I, you know, I don't know if I should marry this woman to Hey, I don't know if I should
1:02:34
live anymore, right? And everything in between. But like for you, take us through that process of,
1:02:39
all right, you find out that he's been caught, you know, his name now. Okay, you got a picture,
1:02:44
you know what he looks like, you know, his background, and then you get into legal, legal
1:02:48
proceedings and then all the the feelings you were going through with all that. I think it's
1:02:54
important to note that that process is so long. Yeah, like they got him. And before we had a first
1:03:00
hearing, it was months and months and months. And so that's important for perspective because
1:03:06
normal life is happening by that point. So I have to return to work. I mean, I have a job that,
1:03:12
that needs me. So I'm back into that kids are back in sports, like I'm trying to find a new flow
1:03:18
of what normal looks like. Then you have a court hearing. And so I see a man that all of this is
1:03:27
internalized to some extent. And it's like, I almost liking it to like Jesus going into the
1:03:33
temple, like that amount of anger inside of me. I don't know if mine was righteous anger.
1:03:40
I felt, I felt justified in it because of what he took from me.
1:03:48
And then your brain just goes into this tailspin. And I could remember days after I would be worthless.
1:03:53
So like just seeing a man and having it affect me that much. And that would be when I would call
1:03:58
you. But man, months and months after this trials, postponed dates that were set for different
1:04:08
phases of the process postponed, changing of lawyers, all of this stuff factors in. And it's just
1:04:16
emotionally and physically draining. And like I said, every time we'd have something as far as
1:04:23
that would go, I'd be down for two or three days. Just nothing to give to any way around it.
1:04:28
No. And so what ultimately I think was beneficial was, I think he felt remorse for what he did. And I
1:04:40
didn't know that until the sentencing hearing at the very end. And so I had demonized him for a
1:04:46
year and a half in my mind. Because what else do you do? I mean, a guy who's had multiple chances
1:04:52
to change his life doesn't. He's addicted to a lot of things or was at that time. And it
1:05:00
overcame him. And he made some decisions that I'm sure he wishes every day that he could take back.
1:05:07
Significance and that a child was killed. But I think that while you're sitting at jail, you have
1:05:13
to evaluate your life choices and where you're at. One of the things you said, you don't know
1:05:19
what you said. One of the most significant things that you said at the beginning, when I first
1:05:25
first talked to you, was begin with the end in mind. And so I don't know if you remember that,
1:05:31
the specifics of that conversation. Yeah, because I remember I'd just been going over
1:05:35
some cubby stuff. And he was talking more in a leadership business management context. But it's
1:05:40
like, I tried to apply it to your situation to where it's like, what is the desired end state here?
1:05:46
And then we work backwards from there. Because, again, I'm not big on big, long future plans,
1:05:51
but I think you can see where an end state is and then we're going to reverse engineer this thing.
1:05:55
Yeah, super helpful for me. You also shared a story of forgiveness in that time and what that
1:06:01
could do in a similar type scenario. Man, I don't know that I'm still at forgiveness,
1:06:07
just looking down the eyes and being in transparent with that. But I think that that helped me on
1:06:14
my journey. For me, personal resolution was once he's sentenced and once he whatever is deemed
1:06:22
appropriate for him, I was going to be able to let him go. I don't know if that's forgiveness or
1:06:27
not, but that's not what I'm going to spend my effort moving forward. I want to honor John. I
1:06:31
want to honor who he was and what he stood for. And so I think that was a transition point for me
1:06:37
was was that hearing. You know, everything was decided beforehand. Like I said, he was he was
1:06:46
remorseful the day of he knew what the sentence was going to be. It was going to be a life sentence.
1:06:50
It wasn't trialed. It was a plea deal that was made. If he's ever to get out again, he's going
1:06:57
to go back to jail on John's birthday to honor his memory. And so I knew all that going in,
1:07:03
but the last hurdle was the victim impact statements that were to be read at sentencing.
1:07:07
And man, that was that was a heavy one. I didn't know what to say. I can write anything business-wise.
1:07:16
I've been able to write a book. I could not write one word on the paper to express what I
1:07:22
was feeling there. Like I didn't know how to do it. And so man, it was that point. I was at a low
1:07:28
point in life. Couldn't figure out what I was going to do. I called up my pastor and I said,
1:07:35
Robert, I'm still trying to rely on self in a time where I can't get through. Like,
1:07:41
I don't know what to do now. Like, I think that was even more rock bottom than at the beginning,
1:07:46
because you have to go back to life. And so I still expected myself to be able to perform
1:07:51
at things that would continue to deplete me as I was going forward. And so it was at that point
1:07:57
that I was like, hey, I need some help. And I've never been one to do therapy, counseling,
1:08:03
that kind of stuff. But I didn't know what else to do. And that's where I found myself.
1:08:08
So just to put a bow on him, what was the final sentence? What was the official sentence?
1:08:12
Yeah. So life sentence. And then like I said, if you ever gets out, he has to go back on
1:08:17
John. He has to go back to serve a day for a day. Yeah. And poetic and appropriate all at the
1:08:22
same time. Obviously. Okay, so let's get to John. I got to watch John grow up, right? Because
1:08:29
Facebook, so Facebook can suck a lot. But it can also be pretty awesome, because you can learn
1:08:34
about people and keep up with people. And I mean, they're, they're human beings that love Kelsey
1:08:39
and I, that have watched James and Eli grow up. And they've never seen him in person. Yeah.
1:08:43
So you will see my boys for the first time in person, whenever we get known with this and go
1:08:47
downstairs, we'll probably hear them before we see them just after they're in that banshee stage.
1:08:52
But you know, you bury John, you've got real life. You know, you've got a new family, new house,
1:09:01
you still have your other kiddos, kiddos, right? The other three kiddos.
1:09:07
But at some point, you kind of make a decision as his dad that, okay, it can't just be,
1:09:13
everyone felt real bad for a time period. And then like, that's it. There has to be some sort of
1:09:18
enduring legacy with John, because John had some very specific qualities to him that were very
1:09:26
attractive, like for friends, for family, just in general, had some very godly qualities
1:09:32
that a lot of adults would want in themselves. And they were just natural to John. And so,
1:09:38
what do you even do? Like to pick yourself up off the floor to be like, okay, we're not just
1:09:43
going to remember, but we're going to honor as we do so. Yeah. I think cool thing is, is at the
1:09:48
beginning, I couldn't even think along that front. Yeah. But the cash community did. And so the
1:09:54
things that they did to honor him, like, you know, John was a wrestler. Yep. Man, love.
1:09:59
Love wrestling. You got to come watch him. I think it was JOC or state, one time we were in Oklahoma
1:10:06
City. Man, it just, it was everything to him. John wasn't a big kid. He was pretty small.
1:10:13
He was the smallest kid on team. We tried him in every sport, and he just always had a disadvantage
1:10:17
because of his stature until wrestling, and he super excelled in it. And so, one of the things
1:10:25
that the community did like almost immediately, like a month after, was they did the John
1:10:31
Zersvey Memorial takedown tournament. And man, just almost overwhelms me even now,
1:10:40
thinking about what they did, raised Buku's of money for the family, what the cash community did
1:10:49
paid for all of the services. I mean, there was no out-of-pocket expenses for anything involved
1:10:55
in the services for John, and honored him at the same time with something that meant so much to him,
1:11:03
and something that meant so much to me because we spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours
1:11:09
together doing wrestling. You know, young wrestling, you get to get involved. I was always a part of
1:11:16
the club. I always got to coach with him. So there wasn't many tournaments that I didn't get to be
1:11:20
in his corner. So I'm talking hundreds of tournaments together all over the state. And so to see him
1:11:26
honored in that way with that community is something that started off memorializing him.
1:11:32
And then, like I said, after the transition of my obsession with justice, turning into letting this
1:11:41
man go, turning into honoring John's life, then I could start thinking about what I wanted to do
1:11:46
to memorialize him and honor him and who he was. I remember during one of our conversations,
1:11:51
you said, if something along the lines that you were going to start writing,
1:11:55
the writing might kind of turn into a book. You want to get some of your thoughts down
1:12:01
as it pertains to what went down with John, that that would at least be a level of catharsis for you
1:12:07
to where you can kind of kind of get some of your thoughts out because some people need that.
1:12:11
Like, that's partially why I do this show, right? Because I have these things, these topics, these
1:12:16
philosophies that I just need to, I need an excuse to research and think them through thoroughly.
1:12:21
So that I can cogently present an argument as to, hey, we should think about this situation this way,
1:12:27
this way or this way. But it's also cathartic for me, because it allows me to get, just get the
1:12:32
thought out. Like so I don't feel like I'm screaming into the abyss, but I'm like sending it off into
1:12:38
the airwaves to maybe help somebody else. So like, at what point do you decide, no, I'm not just,
1:12:45
you know, kind of jotting things down, journal style, but this might be a book that could help
1:12:49
some people. Yeah. So for me, it was thoughts that were just keeping me up at night. Like,
1:12:53
I was to the point where I wasn't sleeping. And this was a year after the accident. So like,
1:12:57
I'd gotten to a point where I was able to sleep and function normal again. But then it kind of
1:13:03
came back and everything was just running through my head. So I'd lay there night after night. And that's
1:13:08
when I was talking to you, I talked to Lauren, she encouraged me first to write it down. And that's
1:13:12
when I talked to you and I said, Hey, I'm going to do this and see what it looks like. And as I did,
1:13:17
it started taking the shape of what I thought could help people. I was vulnerable in it. Some
1:13:22
of the things I share in the book, like, I worried when people would read it, man, just to hurt, you
1:13:31
know, the crash itself, like sharing that level of detail, the vulnerability of realizing that
1:13:39
everything that I thought I knew I didn't know anymore, like the stuff we've talked about today.
1:13:43
And even sharing who John was with the world, like, there's a level of vulnerability to that,
1:13:48
like, that's something that was special to me. But is it going to have any impact on the people who
1:13:54
would read it? And the feedback from it is absolutely like people can relate to the specifics of who
1:14:00
John was. And so it's cool. And people, especially who have lost someone, whether it be a kid, family
1:14:08
member, they can relate to the different phases that I went through. And so being able to share
1:14:13
that in the light that touches folks has proven to be beneficial and honors John at the same time.
1:14:19
So what has that been like? Because I'm trying to think of some specific examples.
1:14:26
Well, there's a, you know, there's somebody that I was helping out at a time in the past. And he had
1:14:31
a mares that dissolved for something that he did not do. So we'll just leave it at that. And I'm
1:14:37
trying to help him figure some stuff out. But because of what I do, and because I'm in that
1:14:41
min space, I knew of some other guys that had gone through a similar situation. And so I can be like,
1:14:47
Hey, he he intellectually knows he's not alone. But when that happens to a guy, you feel like you're
1:14:52
the only person. Yeah. And so I'm sure at some point you feel like, well, I'm the only person
1:14:56
that's ever lost a kid. Like, you know, that's not true, but you just feels like that. But then
1:15:02
God starts bumping you into people that wouldn't you know it, they're 10 years past, tragically
1:15:09
losing their kid, 20 years past losing their kid, five days past losing their kid. And now all of
1:15:15
a sudden, are you're in a position where you're gaining wisdom and support from others. But now
1:15:21
you are uniquely suited to help someone else, not because you read a book, but because or because
1:15:27
you wrote a book, but because you experienced it. You've been there. Right. And so I want to talk
1:15:32
a little bit more about that, like kind of what you've seen now that we're years past this thing,
1:15:36
the fruit that has come off of the fact that you
1:15:40
again, struggle. Yeah. I'm tired of people talking about the struggle using struggle
1:15:47
language. I struggle with porn. I struggle with being shaped. If you struggled, you would be
1:15:50
further along by now, you would have arrived at some point. But yet you were at a point where
1:15:55
you were trying to make it to the next hour. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And a lot of people, you don't
1:16:00
really understand that until you're there, until you are calling someone hoping the answer, because
1:16:05
you just you don't know if you're going to make it. Yeah. Right. And you just get that little bit of
1:16:10
support, you get that little bit of support, and then you start, you know, those stretches of time
1:16:14
in between when you really need help start to elongate. Right. But for you, just talk, take us
1:16:18
through some of the fruit you've seen. Yeah. So it's, it's a club you don't want to be
1:16:23
evolved in. Yeah. But you're there. And so I can remember days after losing John,
1:16:29
folks who had lost kids reaching out to me. And some of them, like you said, weren't very much
1:16:34
further along in their journey than I was, still super raw for them, but wanted to be there for me
1:16:41
in my heart because I knew what I was going through. Two people who were five years out that are like,
1:16:47
okay, I remember day one. Let me walk with you. Let me sit here. Let me be there. And so
1:16:53
I don't, it's not even like it's a duty to do that. It's like, I know what you're hurting with.
1:17:00
Like, I don't want you to be alone in these moments. And so that's what people did for me.
1:17:06
And that's what in turn, you have an innate desire to do for other people. Like,
1:17:11
I don't want you sitting alone with these thoughts that I had. I don't want you to sit alone on that
1:17:16
struggle because I know what it did to me. And so man, just talking to people, being there to people,
1:17:21
knowing that you can't say anything in that moment that's going to make it better,
1:17:26
that it can even be chastising to suggest that you know what they're feeling because you don't.
1:17:31
Like everybody's different. And it doesn't, you know, people have said to me, like,
1:17:36
you lost a kid, I can't imagine that. My loss is nothing compared to yours. No, your loss is
1:17:42
super significant to you. Like my situation doesn't demean your loss. Like it's a huge loss.
1:17:49
And I want to be there for you and your hurt because you were there for me and my hurt. And I
1:17:53
want to be there to be able to be an ear, somebody to lean on, somebody to make sure you're taking
1:17:58
care of yourself, or just sit there in silence if that's what you need. Because there was times
1:18:02
where I needed that. Man, no, to do that, to talk to people, to get feedback from the book of,
1:18:11
this is what I need to hear. I felt like God had you write that for me. Like that is where
1:18:17
although it can be depleting, although meeting on a podcast might be uncomfortable for me,
1:18:23
like it's for a purpose. Like God wanted to use a situation that he didn't, he didn't
1:18:29
ordain this to happen, but he wants it to help people that he cares about as well.
1:18:34
Like I think for me it's significant in that the sacrifice that God made through Jesus
1:18:44
became real because I've lost a son. Like if I love you, if it was a choice for me to sacrifice
1:18:53
my kid for you. See you later. I wouldn't do it, buddy. Yep. I love you. James or Squish,
1:18:59
I'm sure you'd say I'd miss you, buddy. That's right. And so like it legitimized in my mind the
1:19:05
sacrifice that God made for us. And like, yes, I was angry at times, but I see what he did for me
1:19:13
in my lowest points. I see who he brought when, how he took care of me when I couldn't see that
1:19:18
he was doing it. And I didn't have to, I could be genuine with who I was and where I was with
1:19:24
him. And it didn't change anything. Like he was still there for me. And so the grace side of God
1:19:30
became so relevant to me for somebody who was type A, achiever. Let's focus on the just side of God
1:19:38
all this time because I align with your thought process. That's the way my brain is wired.
1:19:44
So to experience grace and allow myself to offer myself grace was something that I wasn't
1:19:51
comfortable with, but you got to be when you can't even get out of bed, you got to be.
1:19:55
And so I guess that speaks to that a little bit. I don't know if I got into every aspect of your
1:20:00
question there, but you did. I, I'm curious and I'm not being the, I'm not being voyeuristic or
1:20:08
trying to be incendiary in any way, but the grace of God becomes, becomes real to you because of
1:20:18
what you've experienced and what you've experienced after not just, not just the, the kinetic moment.
1:20:23
But then along with the grace of God becomes the forgiveness of God. And so when we're told to
1:20:30
forgive those that have trespassed against us, it's not because that's just generally good advice.
1:20:36
It's because God through Jesus forgave us and gave us a pathway back to himself.
1:20:45
And so earlier when you basically said you're, you're not there yet with, with John's killer,
1:20:51
unpack that a little bit for me because I'm not saying I wouldn't be in the exact same position
1:20:59
as you are right now. And I think most people in our audience understand that and are not
1:21:04
critical of that position. But that's the other side of, of the coin of the gospel, which is
1:21:11
grace extended, right? A grace that we have to accept. But there's a forgiveness in that as well
1:21:17
because there is a debt that's owed that it's not like, you know, like student loan debt,
1:21:24
we don't just cancel student loan debt. No, you're transferring it, right? You're forgiving a loan,
1:21:28
right? You're forgiving a debt rather as being transferred to the back of Jesus, right?
1:21:35
And so for you, what would you feel like in terms of your internal consternation is with the whole
1:21:41
forgiveness piece? Because some people would argue you're not going to be able to operate in the way
1:21:48
that God does there until you've made the decision to forgive. Yeah. And I've, I've heard this discussion
1:21:54
on, on your podcast with several of folks. I think you and, and Joby have talked about this.
1:21:58
I think you and some of the real sense is a decision, not a feeling. Yeah. And I, and I think
1:22:03
that there's some significant relevance to that. I think at some point it would behoove me to
1:22:09
forgive this man for me. I don't think that the forgiveness is for him, but for me. And I think
1:22:16
part of that was the let go piece of it. I'm going to, I think I'm going to answer this in a round
1:22:22
about way, but you talk about the significance of events that have happened since then.
1:22:28
And in chapter nine, I talk about how, how we can live like John. One of the things that I think
1:22:35
was most significant was at that sentencing hearing. You know, I told you I couldn't, couldn't write
1:22:41
my statement. It took me forever. And I finally was able to get up something that I wanted to share
1:22:46
that day. And I had it prepared, you know, fine tuned, ready to go. Two weeks before the sentencing
1:22:53
hearing was scheduled, I was sitting at church on Sunday and was just overwhelmed. Like, it happens
1:23:00
now. It didn't used to, but emotions are a little bit more raw anymore. And the impact statement
1:23:08
that wasn't going to be heard that day was John's. And he was the one who was affected most that day.
1:23:13
And man, I'm sitting at church and that just overwhelms me. I'm balling. I didn't, I couldn't
1:23:18
talk. And like when I finally got it together and I told Lauren, like that bothers me, and I'm
1:23:23
going to go home and I'm going to write what I think he would say. And I did. And one of the
1:23:30
things about John that was special is, is he would have forgiven that man. And I know that.
1:23:36
And so you said begin with in mind, I know John would have forgiven him. And so that was
1:23:44
the crutch of the impact statement that I wrote on John's behalf is, you know,
1:23:49
this was not fair. My family is hurting. And there's some responsibility that you have to take for
1:23:57
that. However, Jesus forgave me and I didn't deserve it. And I forgive you. And so like,
1:24:05
I prepared that, didn't know if I was going to read it, didn't know if I was going to give it the DA
1:24:10
to read. But I did share it that day. The impact of that, I guess, is something that I didn't
1:24:17
anticipate. So for me, I was going there that day to get this off my chest, to mark that off off
1:24:23
of the list so that I could move on with my life. It never occurred to me that he would have family
1:24:30
there. Yeah. And so I read that for me. His family was losing a son too. They may never see him again.
1:24:41
You don't know what's going to happen in prison. Right. You know, and so they may never see their
1:24:46
son again, brother, uncle, whatever the case may be. And so getting there that day, reading that,
1:24:56
and then after there was a couple of things that were significant that happened, the judge
1:25:01
looked at me the end directly at me. Several people read the statement, but he was looking at me
1:25:08
and he said, "I wish I could have known John." And he said, "I wish I could have had a conversation
1:25:12
with him and I wish I could have watched him wrestle." Man, hits me and then fails even now.
1:25:19
Afterwards, we'd go out after to the gallery and these random people come up and just start hugging
1:25:26
me. And it's his family. And just grateful that I was able to share what John would have said,
1:25:34
grateful that he would have been able to offer him forgiveness, remorse for the actions that were
1:25:42
not their responsibility at all. And then we all got to pray together. And so like the impact of
1:25:48
the people in that courtroom that never even got to meet John was significant to me. And that
1:25:55
motivated me to push and write through and get through the heart. Because if he can have that
1:26:00
impact on that room, who else needs to hear? Who else needs to experience who John was?
1:26:06
And what impact could that have on those folks that need to hear it, that don't know that they
1:26:10
need to hear it? That's why I want to give the book such a good endorsement. Because you sent this
1:26:15
to me. This was before it was even accepted, right? It was early, really early to see what you thought.
1:26:21
Really, really early copying. I buzzed right through it. And again, guys, we spend stupid money
1:26:28
on stupid things. And it's like, you can't find in your budget to buy this book. I need to have
1:26:34
Dave Ramsey on the show so we can talk to you guys. So as we dig into the book, this is one of
1:26:41
the first editions that sent to me and all that. And so I mean, you can obviously get kind of an
1:26:46
idea from the different chapter titles where you talk about the crash early on. But then you're
1:26:50
talking about relational margin, professional margin, spiritual margin, different things.
1:26:54
And then chapter nine living like John is kind of how you bring it all back. But
1:26:59
just give the audience kind of a 30,000 foot overview of the book because we kind of picked
1:27:03
around at the edges. But what do you want people to come away with after they read it?
1:27:08
Yeah, so again, it's a book to honor John first and foremost. The stuff that I have presented here,
1:27:17
though, was very much a practical, I guess, lessons learned from trying to overcome an
1:27:27
obstacle that I didn't think that I would ever face. The front of the book, I don't know if you
1:27:33
can see it, is a guy climbing the front face of a mountain. Yeah, show to that camera right there.
1:27:40
Yeah, yep. So a common theme throughout the book is
1:27:44
when life takes you to rock bottom, which it will, at some point you have to reapproach the
1:27:52
mountain and begin your climb again. And that's where I found myself. Like I said, the anchor
1:27:57
points that were set along my life of the things that I believed in were ripped out of the mountain
1:28:01
in an instant. And I found myself at rock bottom with nowhere to go. I mean, that's where I found
1:28:07
myself for months and months and months. But when you get to the point where you're ready to
1:28:12
reapproach that mountain and climb, things that you used to could have expected of yourself,
1:28:17
you can't deliver on anymore. I mean, your type A, you go, go, go. There's nothing I can't do.
1:28:24
There's nothing I can't accomplish. Well, in this phase of life, there's nothing that you
1:28:29
could accomplish that was easy before. And so like, I mean it, like getting out of bed,
1:28:36
like deciding small things like what to eat, like everything was just exhausted.
1:28:42
And so this navigates the journey. And also it takes a second to take a step back and reevaluate
1:28:52
what's important. So like every facet of your life wants so much from you. If you're
1:28:59
investing in everything equally, what's important? And if you say yes to everything,
1:29:07
how much are you giving to each facet of your life? So I delved into each, each thing that was
1:29:12
important, like I have to make a living for my family. So what do I need to do to be able to
1:29:16
approach my job and be successful in that and not invest too much where I don't have,
1:29:21
you know, areas to give to other things, energy to give to other things. I looked at,
1:29:28
you know, my roles in the church, like I said, I was investing in leading men's groups,
1:29:33
going to different conferences, doing as much as I could to try to help.
1:29:36
I didn't have it. Like for me to get up was a struggle. Even now, sometimes going to church
1:29:44
and hearing worship songs is still a struggle because John loved worship. That was his favorite
1:29:49
thing. And here in those songs, I just hear him sing it. And so it can deplete me. So like,
1:29:54
knowing that I needed to have margin in my life in every area, spiritual work,
1:30:00
responsibilities outside of work, even with my family, like I needed to be able to have
1:30:05
enough of myself to give to them, like navigate help me navigate what to do to move forward to
1:30:11
be successful. Man, I had to say no to a lot of things. Like I really had to reserve myself
1:30:17
for what was absolutely necessary of me. And when you do that, you can start climbing again.
1:30:23
You can start on your journey again. And when you do and you start building margin, when you start
1:30:28
setting your life up with a space where you can truly examine what's important and not take away
1:30:36
from one thing and sacrifice it for something else, you really can start operating and what
1:30:41
your intended purpose is. I know moving forward, like my purpose is to honor John, my purpose is
1:30:47
to help people who have been on a similar journey. And that's why I'm here, like, like this is
1:30:51
uncomfortable for me, but I'm doing it because it's my purpose. Talking to people, it can exhaust
1:30:57
you. Like you said it, you know, what you get reached out to is a burden that you have to take
1:31:02
on yourself. If you don't have margin because you're going in a thousand directions, it's going
1:31:07
to deplete you to the point where you're going to hit rock bottom. So you got to you got to stay
1:31:12
conscious of that in all aspects of life. It's not just a tragic loss like this, like there's
1:31:18
practicality of this, what I present in this book to anybody at every phrase of their life,
1:31:24
like you could be on rock bottom, but you could benefit from this. You can be on the
1:31:29
mountaintop and still implement things that will benefit you for the longer, the longer whole.
1:31:33
And another point that I think that's significant in here, I call it a safety net, you call it a
1:31:39
foxhole. It's a similar thought process. Man, when you fall, you got to have somebody that's
1:31:45
going to catch you. You got to have a group of folks that are going to catch you. You may sit on
1:31:50
guys because this is a men's podcast. And I do think that that's super significant for men.
1:31:54
You can't rely on females for a married man and that creates different angst. But if you have a
1:32:02
group of people that are looking out for your best interests that are going to be there for
1:32:07
you, no matter what, man, that'll help you get through some tough times. And that will call you
1:32:12
out. Hey, you're investing too much here. Are you taking care of yourself? Are you eating? Are you
1:32:17
doing the things that are important to you? And that's essential to navigating life's hardships.
1:32:23
Chris, that's what I tell people all time is like, you have to have men in your life that are
1:32:26
consequential to you. You have to have men that are close enough to you where they can snatch you up
1:32:32
by your shirt. If you're doing something wrong, or they can stop you from doing something wrong,
1:32:37
or they can pull you to doing something right. And that's like, you may have buddies from high
1:32:43
school, you may have buddies that you were in a frat with in college, you may have dudes that
1:32:47
used to work with or dudes you went through basic training with or whatever the thing is. And it
1:32:50
doesn't mean you don't love those people. They're just not consequential to you. Like, I got guys
1:32:54
that used to be like best friends of mine that were here that just don't live here anymore. And
1:32:59
it's like, okay, well, they're just not consequential. It doesn't mean that I won't drop what I'm doing
1:33:03
to go help them. It just means it's going to take a while and I might have to hop on an airplane
1:33:06
to get there, right? And like, you can't have only airplane buddies, right? You got to have
1:33:12
same side of town buddies. Yeah. Right. Because the thing is, is the valley is guaranteed. You're
1:33:18
either in it coming out of it or about to go into it. Yeah. Right. And sometimes it's just your turn.
1:33:22
And, you know, for me, I recently got some news that some very important people in my life are
1:33:28
sick. And, you know, it's just what's my first thought, right? You know, take this to God. And then
1:33:36
it's like, okay, I got to take this to my foxhole. I got to take this to my brothers. Yeah. And it's
1:33:40
like, look, hey, I don't need anything from you. I just need you to know I'm going through this.
1:33:43
And, you know, I may, I may lean on you for something here or there, just just letting you know. And
1:33:48
then then guys start, you know, doing what a foxhole does, they start like blocking and tackling and
1:33:53
trying to figure out, okay, how can we support Kyle in this moment? Yeah. Right. But sometimes
1:33:58
guys, it's like, you got to have someone that when you're on the floor, literally for some of you,
1:34:04
when you're on the floor and you can't get up, right, that you got someone that you know is going to
1:34:08
answer. You know, they're going to be there to pick you up. Yeah. Right. That's going to help
1:34:11
you get to that next hour. That's just going to sit there, right? And just let you talk at them,
1:34:15
right? And so, so where can people get the book? Because it'll be in the show notes because some
1:34:19
people are confused about what show notes means. So if they're listening to this and they just want
1:34:22
to do it the old fashioned way, where can they get the book? Absolutely. It's on Amazon. You can get
1:34:26
it there. Barnes and Noble, you can get there. All of the digital formats, iTunes, Kindle, Nook,
1:34:32
anywhere you can search, just search margin by Chryzerzvi and that'll, it'll be.
1:34:37
Xurzvi Z-E-R-Z-A-V-Y. I'm glad you wrote this because we went to a guy who's last in school.
1:34:43
His last name was Paholsky. Yeah. So it's like, you know, we don't have to try to remember that,
1:34:46
but yeah, it's Chryzerzvi Z-E-R-Z-A-V-Y. You guys can check it out there. But man, that's all for me,
1:34:53
is there anything else you want to get off your chest? I think just that last point that you made
1:34:56
is very significant. The 6 a.m. or the 3 a.m. friend that you talk about, man, I needed it.
1:35:06
And so I can tell you about a couple examples and I think it helps to solidify what you,
1:35:12
because you've been saying it for years and years. Man, it was the week after John passed.
1:35:17
I have a gym in my garage. I was still trying to keep up with it, but my buddy that used to work
1:35:26
out with me, who is a 3 a.m. friend, no matter what friend, going to be there all the time,
1:35:31
he said, "We're going to start working out together at 6 a.m. at least three times a week
1:35:36
and has every week since then." It wasn't something that I could argue. I tried because I didn't want
1:35:43
to. Good luck. I didn't want to commit to it, but he knew I needed it. And so there was times
1:35:48
where we would get together and we'd work out in silence. There was times where I didn't have
1:35:52
much to give and those times that I would pour out my heart. And he absolutely was there for that.
1:35:58
Man, if I didn't have that 3 a.m. friend, I don't know that those first couple months would have
1:36:06
been parable. And so what Kyle is saying on that, what he's told all of us, it's easy to hear,
1:36:12
but you've got to build those now. That 3 a.m. is not always easy to cultivate.
1:36:19
Because if your life is full of family and sports and hobbies and your Netflix habit and your TikTok
1:36:25
habit and your whatever habit, you're thinking yourself, because guys like to lament, "Oh, I don't
1:36:31
have guys like that." That is one of the most common, if not the most common thing that I get
1:36:36
in my DMs and emails is, "I don't have guys like that. How do I get them?" And I say, "Well, where would
1:36:44
you go looking for one of these types of people?" Like, "I don't live in your city. Why are you
1:36:49
asking me? Where do you guys congregate? Where do you guys congregate that you don't want to be like?"
1:36:54
All right, so don't go to those places. Where are the guys congregate that are guys that you
1:36:59
would want to be like? I tell people, "Be careful at churches because you might get a lot of doughy,
1:37:04
frumpy guys that know a lot of worship music. But when your chips are down at three o'clock in the
1:37:08
morning, you're not calling that dude. He's probably too busy pressing his khakis or whatever.
1:37:13
But it's like, where are those people at? Are they at the Jiu Jitsu gym? Are they at the CrossFit gym?
1:37:18
Are they at your place of work? Are they the other dads on your kids baseball team? Are they
1:37:22
PTA? Are they HOA? Like, "Well, where are these guys?" Yeah. Right? And then it's like, then they
1:37:28
start thinking. And then they start thinking like, "Oh." Then you know how it is like when you buy a new
1:37:33
truck, right? And then all of a sudden you see every other truck in town that's exactly like the
1:37:37
truck that you bought. And you're like, "Wait, wait, wait. Did everyone buy the same truck at the same
1:37:40
place at the same time?" No, your brain just turned on for it. You're like tuned up to notice those
1:37:46
things. Same thing in that situation. You're tuned up to look for those types of guys. But
1:37:52
then finding them is not enough. You got to see them. You got to be around those guys. So that's
1:37:58
the big thing. I always tell people like, in a perfect world, you get together weekly and there's
1:38:02
some sort of physical component. Right? Do something hard together. Some guys are in a different
1:38:08
situation. Some guys are in a different age range. Some guys are super, super rural where the nearest
1:38:12
house is 20 minutes away. Like, "Okay." So there's different circumstances. The number one thing is
1:38:17
you got to get together every week. Yeah. So this last Sunday, I talked about my Fight Club group.
1:38:22
It was like all the OGs. All the OGs were there and then some random guy who I didn't know his name.
1:38:27
But it was like, it was Jermaine and it was Shelby and it was Vinny and it was Hanky and it was Russ
1:38:32
and it was Rocky and it was Jermaine. And it was like, it was like all the guys that had been there
1:38:37
longer than I have even known these guys. Do you know what the occasion was? It was Sunday.
1:38:43
That was the occasion. Sunday is seven o'clock and that's where we go. Sunday is at seven o'clock.
1:38:49
And some guys have stretches where they can't come for whatever reason. Some guys are real
1:38:54
consistent. Some guys bebop in and out or whatever. That's the crew. That if something goes wrong
1:39:00
with me, with this house, with anything in my life, with undaunted, with the business, whatever,
1:39:05
they're there. My forging table guys, who was there with me, Barry and Roman in this backyard
1:39:12
out behind here, when they weren't asked to show up, they just showed up. You can lament all day
1:39:17
long, guys, that you don't have fellas like that. But a couple of questions you have to ask yourself.
1:39:21
One, why haven't you looked for guys like that yet? And two, are you a guy like that? Are you
1:39:26
going to answer your phone at three o'clock in the morning? Are you going to inconvenience
1:39:28
yourself? Are you going to come out of pocket with your own money or with your own time or with your
1:39:33
own effort to be there for another man? Because if the answer is no, then you can kick rocks, buddy.
1:39:38
Yeah. Right. Because if you're not willing to be that for somebody else, they're not going to be
1:39:41
there for you. They're not going to be there for you. And guess what? That's exactly what you deserve.
1:39:44
Yeah. And so I don't have a whole lot of patience for guys that lament that and don't do anything
1:39:49
about it. I'm tired of hearing guys, Oh, I lament the fact that I'm overweight freaking kick it into
1:39:53
gear, dude. Yeah. Like, you know exactly what to do. You have super computer in your pocket,
1:39:56
ask chat GPT, how can I not be so fat and worthless? And guess what? It'll tell you it'll tell you
1:40:01
what to do. Yeah. Same thing. Oh, you know, I just wish I was closer to God. Well, what are you doing?
1:40:04
Yeah. Are you going to church or your local body believers? Are you doing Bible study on your own
1:40:09
or with a group of people? Are you praying at all? No. Okay. Well, there I just gave you your laundry
1:40:12
list of things that you need to work at and the things that you need to do starting, I don't know,
1:40:16
five minutes ago. And so it's like, we love to complicate things. We love to lament. But at some
1:40:20
point we do have to get after it. But there I did my own like little false image of this podcast,
1:40:25
but you got me all fired up and launched it. So I will do my outro again. And if you want to say
1:40:29
something else, I don't care. I got none but time. But that is all for me. Is there anything else you
1:40:34
want to go for? No, sir, that's great. I appreciate you in that way. That's important and being
1:40:37
intentional with those things being the guy that you want somebody to be there for you is absolutely
1:40:43
critical for that. For me, for when you need it. Yeah, let's live like John live like John.
1:40:48
Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe,
1:40:51
rate and leave us a positive five star review. If you want to come speak live at your event or on
1:40:55
your podcast, shoot me an email to info@undonton.life. That's i-n-f-o @undonton.life. Follow us on Instagram
1:41:02
and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to
1:41:06
keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undonton.life. And as always, we want to
1:41:11
thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this
1:41:15
podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album on Face Down Records.
1:41:20
The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness
1:41:25
keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:41:55
you