CHLOE MELAS | My Grandfather’s Story of the Air War in Europe (Ep. 434)

0:00 I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Our guys today, we got a special guest

0:25 on the podcast. Her name is Chloe Milas. So she is a journalist and entertainment

0:29 reporter for CNN and HLN. And she's the granddaughter of World War II pilot Frank Murphy, who authored

0:36 the book, which is the main subject matter for today's interview. And that's luck of

0:39 the draw. Okay. So in this book, Frank Murphy details the almost unbelievable air war that

0:45 took place during World War II. Murphy was one of the few survivors from the hundredth

0:50 bombardment group, AKA the bloody hundredth. Also in the book, Murphy details when his B

0:54 17 was shot down over enemy territory in Germany, and spending, you know, almost two years in

1:00 a German prisoner of war camp. The book is actually being re released by St Martin's press

1:05 and Chloe and her mother Elizabeth Frank's daughter, each wrote forwards for the new

1:09 version, which is a very interesting thing. And this name is going to sound very familiar

1:13 to Frank Murphy and some of these other names involved later on this year, because this

1:17 story Frank's story is going to be featured prominently in an upcoming Apple TV plus television

1:22 show called Masters of the Air, which will release later this year. Like I said, in the

1:26 project is headed up by Steven Spielberg and stars Tom Hanks. So this is like a big deal.

1:31 Like it's going to be a huge thing. And the fact that this book is being re released,

1:35 this book was written by Frank Murphy. And the thing about this book, I read every page

1:39 of it. And as you're digging through it, it's incredibly detailed. So if you're a military

1:42 historian type person, it's very, very interesting because there's so much detail. But then there's

1:47 also a narrative arc, because you see that with with these books, some books just have

1:51 a narrative. Others, other books are just details. This is both. And so I actually gave this book

1:57 to a buddy of mine that is a pilot in it. You know, he's really nerding out on some of

2:01 the details, whereas I was nerding out on the actual story, because it's a, it's a crazy

2:04 story of resilience, because this was a young man that was a pilot at a time where they

2:09 were literally throwing human suffering at this air war. And they didn't really know,

2:14 they were kind of experimenting with these people. And a lot of people died. A lot of

2:18 people died. But these men kept saddling up in their airplanes and kept going to war.

2:23 Like, it's just an astonishing like, again, we, we talk about this in the interview with

2:26 Chloe. We have our problems today, but it's like, it's not the problems that these guys

2:30 had. And they just kept going back up there. One of the things that are really enjoyed about

2:34 this conversation with Chloe is it was we weaved in and out of the narrative of the story of

2:38 Frank's life and the story that he wrote down in luck of the draw. And the thing is, is

2:42 that that that's, that's what a conversation is because there are interviews there are

2:46 like, okay, I'm going to ask you this question. And then I'm going to ask you the next question.

2:49 And then poof, I'm a genius. But we kind of weaved into and out of his story. And we left

2:53 a lot of the details on the table because guys, it would have been impossible. We could have

2:57 done a 10 hour interview today. And it would not have been able to really even scratch

3:00 the service on the detail that is in this book. But I really, really enjoyed my time talking

3:04 with her about a myriad of different issues. And I really enjoyed digging into the book

3:07 as well. So guys, I'm not going to keep these people. I'm not going to keep Chloe from you

3:11 any longer. So without further ado, let's get into it.

3:14 Chloe Milas, welcome down to the life of man's podcast. Hey, happy to be here. So we're

3:20 going to cover a lot of ground today. And I was already like, very impressed with all

3:23 your energy. So hopefully you can sustain that through our entire discussion today. But you

3:27 are a journalist and an entertainment reporter by trade. But I'm pretty certain up to this

3:32 point, I've never actually talked to someone who that is their job. And that's what's in

3:35 their job description. So how in the world did that happen for you?

3:39 I mean, it's the only thing that I was good at, because I'm terrible at math, terrible

3:45 at science. I didn't make great grades. And I joined the newspaper in high school when

3:53 I was growing up in Dallas, Texas, I was at a new school. And it was a place to make friends.

3:59 And you know, I'm kind of a weirdo and like sort of a nerd, but I just, you know, found

4:04 a group of people that really embraced me. And that's kind of the beginning of where I

4:10 am now. So when I went to college, I went to Auburn University War Eagle for anybody

4:15 out there. All right. I love that CC. And I, you know, I grew up down in Texas, grew up

4:21 also in Atlanta, Georgia. And so I went to Auburn and I immediately jumped into the school's

4:27 TV station there. And I was like, wow, like not only do I love print and newspaper and

4:32 just writing and talking to people, but I also love the element of television, not just being

4:37 on it, but behind the scenes and how the sauce is made. And after college, I came up to New

4:42 York for an internship. And my whole family was like, are you really serious? You're going

4:49 to go be a Yankee? I'm like, I don't know. And here I am 15 years later. Maybe I am one

4:54 now, but I have two kids and I'm up here now and I'm invested. I am, I have an invested

4:59 New Yorker now and I work at CNN, covering entertainment, not politics, much to the happiness

5:05 of my very southern Fox News, watching family. They do watch CNN, but only when I'm on. And

5:11 yeah, so here, here we are. And I fell into covering entertainment and celebrities. It

5:15 was really just because I thought it would be fun. And it would be not so depressing,

5:22 but it can be depressing and not that fun. Sometimes it can certainly be depressing.

5:27 Well, I will tell you, as a representative to all of us here in the south or pseudo south,

5:31 we will always accept you back because you go up to Yankee town and then, you know, eventually

5:35 you get worn out with that. We'll always welcome you back with open arms. But one quick thing

5:39 on the whole like entertainment reporter thing, because it's kind of easy to pick on that,

5:43 because it seems kind of vapid. And it's all these like people that are just like seemingly

5:48 nonsense people doing nonsense things. And it's like, why do we care? But I do find

5:52 it funny that especially conservatives in the conservative space and me included, we love

5:56 to point at the Oscars and the Grammys and like, Oh, those relics of the past, I won't

6:00 even watch this anymore. And then you spend the first 30 minutes of your show the following

6:04 Monday talking about stuff that happened at the Grammys or the Oscars. But for you, what

6:09 is it like covering that? Because it can be a bit of a palate cleanser from the rest of

6:14 the news cycle, which can be like incredibly like concerning and infuriating at times.

6:19 Well, you know, it's interesting that you point this out. So I've lived like a couple

6:23 different lives in this space. So for seven years, I worked for this website called Hollywood

6:29 Life and I did real gossip and who's dating who and who's married to who and who's wearing

6:36 what and who's had a baby and all that kind of gossipy, mindless stuff that you read to,

6:42 you know, get your mind off other things. Of course, I've covered red carpets throughout

6:46 my whole life. But when I came to CNN, I really leveled up. And at CNN, it's, uh, it's the

6:54 more serious, you know, people being charged with crimes and people making news for not

7:01 the best things. So I covered a lot during the Me Too movement and I really surprised

7:06 myself. I did a huge story about Kevin Spacey right after I came back from maternity leave

7:12 and it got him fired from Netflix, right? So I think that I realized that some of the

7:18 stuff that I could do, not just on the Me Too movement, but could be really impactful.

7:23 And so, um, I always had imposter syndrome. I think especially growing up in the south

7:29 and then moving up to New York where you feel like you're not the smartest person in the

7:32 room. Um, and I've just really gained a lot of confidence being here at CNN. I've covered

7:38 some massive, massive stories. I don't really cover red carpets and things like that. I'm

7:44 not really covering movies and TV shows. But when something is huge, we will cover it.

7:49 And I did go to the Golden Globes this year, um, which was awesome to be there. But sure,

7:55 I mean, I think that in the grand scheme of things, it is escapism, a lot of what I cover.

8:00 Um, and can also make you feel better about your own life. Yeah. Yeah. When you see people

8:05 that you've looked up to for whatever reason, and you see them fall, it doesn't make you

8:09 feel a little better. Now, I don't want to completely throw my, my interview off from

8:12 the very, very beginning here, but you did mention one thing. So I had one quick follow-up

8:15 on the Me Too movement. So obviously when it was happening at the time, you would be

8:19 hard pressed to find somebody that was against the movement in its most pure form because

8:24 like sexual sadist taking advantage of men and women in order to, you know, satisfy themselves,

8:31 but then also to propel careers, just nasty, ugly stuff. But it seems like the Me Too movement

8:35 has kind of eaten itself a little bit, especially when you see certain people that were caught

8:40 up in the Me Too movement, uh, perhaps the, the former mayor of the city that you live

8:44 in right now. And then you have people from that movement that were kind of helping them

8:47 get out of trouble. And then you also see these things about people coming out male and female

8:52 saying these things happened and then they didn't actually happen. And it seemed like

8:56 a lot of people hopped on the Me Too bandwagon. And it was like, it lost its purity almost

9:01 immediately because so many people were throwing things out there that weren't necessarily

9:06 in the, in the vein of some of the things that were happening, some of these actual gross,

9:10 horrific, sadistic things. So do you kind of see that because we don't really hear about

9:14 the Me Too movement anymore. But it's like, we should still talk about people taking advantage

9:18 of other people sexually, sexual assault and, and the rest of the gamut, you know what I

9:22 mean?

9:23 Yeah. I mean, look, it's a really great point that you bring up. And I think that what it

9:25 comes down to is that it's complicated, right? I mean, there's a clear right and wrong there.

9:32 And I think that it started a dialogue and a conversation that was really important, especially

9:37 when it comes to like zero tolerance in the workplace, right? And I think that some people

9:44 out there who were really taking advantage of their power, they got in trouble, right?

9:50 And some of these people, what's coming to them is still coming to them, right? And I

9:54 think that it just raised awareness. And I think that for a while, collectively, everybody

9:59 was on the same opinions of it all. But I also think that it went on for a while. And

10:04 there was Me Too movement fatigue. And people were like, well, I can't even tell someone

10:09 they're attractive anymore. I'm going to get fired. And really, that's really just over

10:13 simplifying it all, right? We all know in our hearts what's wrong and what's, what's

10:17 not right to do. And I think that with anything, you know, whether you put a label on the movement

10:24 or not, I think that, like I said, it's complicated. People's motives can be complicated and not

10:31 pure. I think that talking about what's right and wrong and how we treat people is a conversation

10:36 that should never go away, whether we call it the Me Too movement or we don't, right?

10:40 Whether we look at what's happened within the actual organization, times up itself or not,

10:45 right? And I think that you see it across all different types of movements from politics

10:51 to social issues, right? Nothing's ever 100% perfect. But I do hope that people's men,

10:59 women, whoever it is, abusing power is always exposed. And I really enjoyed reporting on

11:06 just exposing abuses of power in general, just because I want to help people. And I have

11:13 people who come to me with stories all the time and they reach out to me with stories.

11:17 And, you know, it can sometimes take over a year for me to work on these stories. They're

11:21 really emotional for both myself and the victims. And, you know, so I've really enjoyed trying

11:28 to make an impact and not just cover red carpets and who's wearing what, not that there's

11:34 anything wrong with that. But for me, in terms of what I'm doing and if I get a finite amount

11:38 of time on this earth, I want to do things that are going to help change lives. I mean,

11:43 I don't mean that to sound like cheesy, not every day, but I want to do what I can, right?

11:48 To have a meaningful impact. So I hear what you're saying. I think it's complicated, right?

11:52 But I think that if you scale it, if you strip it all back, last thing I'll say is that it

11:55 had the right of intentions. And I think that there was some real good that came out of

11:59 it. And I don't think it's over calling it me to or not.

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12:32 One, you use the word fatigue. One thing that we should never fatigue of is actually fighting

12:38 against the predations of evil people that are trying to hurt image bearers of Christ.

12:42 What we shouldn't what we should fatigue of is witch hunting or you know, blaming people

12:48 that aren't actually the people that you should be blaming. And so it's making sure that the

12:51 crosshairs are on the right target. And I think that that's something that that maybe

12:55 got a little bit out over its keys in terms of this movement. But I want to rewind the

12:58 clock back to when you were just a little girl growing up in either Texas or Georgia.

13:02 I can't remember which, but you grew up the granddaughter of Frank and Anne Murphy. And

13:07 so Frank Murphy is obviously going to be the center point of our discussion today. But Frank

13:11 was a World War II pilot, but obviously like my grandfather, my great grandfather served

13:16 in World War II, but I was so young whenever I was growing up with him that was never something

13:21 that we talked about. It was something that I talked about with, you know, his kids and

13:24 you know, his grandkids after he had passed away unfortunately. But for you, what was it

13:28 like growing up being the granddaughter of the Murphy's? And then I guess, when did you

13:32 find out about his World War II stuff? Because that, you know, since you own a different trajectory

13:36 as well.

13:37 I mean, look, I would sleep over at my grandmother and grandfather's house almost every weekend

13:42 with some of my cousins and the conversation at dinner always turned to World War II, because

13:47 I had a cousin who ended up going into the military. He went to Virginia, to VMI, Virginia

13:52 Military Institute, and then he ended up joining the National Guard later in life. But he was

13:56 really interested in my cousin Ben. So because Ben was interested, I got to hear all these

14:01 stories. And you know, as I grew up, I knew that my grandfather was writing a book about

14:07 his experiences for the family, about being a prisoner of war. You know, I didn't really

14:13 appreciate it because I didn't really understand that one day I would be, you know, trying

14:17 to tell his story that he wrote to the world. Funny how life comes full circle. And you

14:24 know, it's my mom and her siblings. She's one of four. They never heard stories about

14:30 World War II because grandpa, their dad didn't talk about it after the war. It was decades

14:35 later that I guess he finally felt ready. And he spoke about it first with his grandchildren.

14:40 Then he wrote this book, Luck of the Draw. And I know we'll get to that. And then, you

14:46 know, when I was in college, when I was in college is when I really started to take an

14:50 interest right before he died. So perfect timing. So I got a couple special moments in

14:55 there. And then after he died and when I was in New York and working, I really found an

15:02 interest with a couple different World War II and military organizations. And that's when

15:07 I went on this path of learning, really learning and reading the book again and really, really

15:14 getting to know what my grandfather went through.

15:16 Well, I want to go ahead and get into that because this is the new re-release guys. If

15:20 you're watching this on time, this is out. Now it is in the show notes. You can pick

15:23 it up. Luck of the draw written by your grandfather, Frank Murphy. But you wrote one of the four

15:28 words. So as you and I believe it was your mother, you both wrote new four words for the

15:31 book. Is that correct? Yep. Okay. So in the new forward for the book, which, you know,

15:35 we'll get way more into here in just a minute, you mentioned that when you got to college

15:39 at Auburn, that your interest in the missions that your grandfather was a part of during

15:42 World War II became heightened. It was a heightened interest for you. And I want to actually read

15:47 a passage from your foreword that has to deal with this because it was actually one of my

15:51 favorite parts of the entire book and it was in the foreword. I was like, okay, this is

15:54 just a foreword. I can't wait to get to the actual book. So let me read the quote here.

15:57 During the summer of 2006, after my freshman year at Auburn, I was studying abroad in London.

16:02 Just a few hours away from Royal Air Force Station 139, where my grandfather flew his

16:06 perilous missions. That summer, I learned my grandfather was diagnosed with cancer. I

16:10 decided to make the two hour train ride from London to Thor, Thor, Abbots, which is now

16:14 a museum. I'll never forget the museum caretaker Carol Batley walking me into the air traffic

16:20 control tower on the base, which is now filled with the uniforms and glass case uniforms in

16:25 glass cases and some personal belongings of the men who were stationed there, including

16:29 my grandfather's. We walked in and she said, Hello boys, as if they were all still standing

16:34 there in the control tower, the hair on my arm stood straight up. It's a moment I'll

16:38 never forget. I then found myself on the runway, where I called my grandfather from

16:43 my tiny prepaid Vodafone at 84 years old. It was the first and last time I ever heard

16:47 him cry. I'm here. I said to him. He broke down responding. That's where it all began.

16:53 He died the next summer almost to the day on June 16, 2007 at the age of 85. Going there

16:59 was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Now I remember reading that Chloe and I remember

17:04 a hair standing up on my arms, hearing you say what the woman said because it's so casual.

17:10 And I'm even getting like a little bit, a little bit teary eyed right now just thinking

17:14 about that because that is a different level of reverence for what these men did at this

17:20 time because here we are in 2023. We don't have the foggiest idea about the horrible things

17:26 that happened in the 20th centuries and some of the ideologies that led to those things.

17:32 But then in a micro, those are macro problems Chloe, but in the micro sense you have men

17:36 and women that are trying to keep those stories alive like you are. And then you have the men

17:40 and women that actually sacrifice back at that time in order to get to where we are today.

17:45 So there's a whole lot wrapped up in there, but take me back to that moment when you experienced

17:49 that because you could have just been like any bratty granddaughter milling a granddad

17:53 told me weird war stories, but then I moved on with my life and I moved to New York City

17:56 and I worked for CNN now, but no, no, no, you, you were so in tune with that story. Take

18:01 me through that.

18:02 Well, first of all, I love that you a read the book and that you found parts of it meaningful.

18:10 That means a lot to me. You know, first of all, Carol Batley and her husband who Ron

18:17 and Carol who took over the Air Force base that's, you know, really overgrown and they've

18:23 done such a good job turning it into a museum, raising money for the eighth Air Force and

18:30 they're just a great couple who've dedicated their lives to these men and their memories.

18:35 And if anybody is in London and wants to take the train out to dis, it's not far and you

18:41 can go to visit Ron and Carol and, you know, it's a small fee to go walk around, but it's

18:48 really, really cool. And it's, it's, it's a really awesome experience.

18:54 My grandfather was a really great person, right? So he was a good human being, a good dad,

19:00 a good husband, an amazing grandfather. He was the person that everybody went to with

19:06 their problems. He always helped solve those problems. He never raised his voice. He was

19:11 an even tempered, just amazing person. I really can't find anything wrong with him at all.

19:18 And I've tried because I've tried to take him off that pedestal because nobody should

19:22 be on a pedestal. But I, he's still up there. I can't, I can't, I can't take him off. Okay.

19:27 And so it makes me happy to want to talk about this book he spent seven years writing in

19:32 the basement after he retired. And he did it for, to, you know, keep the memory of his

19:38 fellow men alive and to also preserve the memories for his grandkids. And, you know, I knew that

19:44 the book was important when he wrote it and he self published it with a guy who had actually

19:50 been in World War II in the eighth Air Force, but they didn't know each other during the

19:54 war. And he had a small publishing company. They did food and nutrition books. And he

20:00 was like, well, I'll publish it for you. And it was like, great. Okay. Um, I don't think

20:04 my grandfather ever could have imagined that decades later, it would get this like huge

20:08 rollout, like, and I'd be sitting here talking to you. And we would be giving it the red carpet

20:13 treatment. I think that he would just think it's like wild. And Tom Hanks is quote on the

20:17 cover. It's so crazy. But yeah, when I went to, I was studying abroad in England. And I

20:23 don't remember if I had made the decision to go before or after I found it, I found out

20:27 he had cancer. Um, but I knew I needed to go. And that was really important. And I really

20:31 loved my grandparents. I still do my grandma's still alive. So I wanted to go and do that.

20:37 That's just kind of like how I am. I know I'm nobody special, but I really care about

20:40 family connection. And I really care about, um, memories.

20:45 Well, and I think you wrapped up your, your forward with this quote, our family's goals

20:51 to keep Frank's memory. And that of his fellow men alive and pass on the greatness to the

20:55 next generation. Now, Chloe, that quote came on the heels of you describing your two sons,

21:00 his great grandchildren, Leo and Luke. And you know, them talking about, they want to

21:04 fly planes like great grandpa and do those types of things. So just in that alone, because

21:09 I think as of the writing of the forward, you know, your sons were five and three, you're

21:13 voting still are still are five and three. So you're putting those idea, you're not putting

21:18 them there, but you're, you're exposing them to these ideas about what it was like. I guess

21:23 my question for you as a mama bear, because I have two sons, I have a two year old and

21:26 a 10 month old, so a little bit behind where you guys are. And so when, what if they're

21:32 not five and three, what if they're 18 and 16, and both of them say at that point, I'm

21:37 going to go fly in planes like great granddad did, like at that, but like, okay, you're

21:42 giving me the thumbs up for those of you just listening to this. I know that there are a

21:45 lot of mama bears and even papa bears out there that, you know, considering the trajectory

21:49 of the military and some of the things we've seen even recently, but just in general, the

21:53 idea that your kid might be going off to war and may never come back. That is a real

21:57 possibility if you enter into the military. So what do you think about that?

22:02 That's like a selfish mindset, right? Like if my kids want to go and serve their country,

22:07 well, yeah. Okay. And I am all about like, one of the, one of the reasons why I hope

22:12 that people read this book and first of all, like, I am not trying to self promote myself.

22:17 I'm not trying to take money from this book. And I'm saying that because it's really important

22:21 to me to like get that out there. The money from the book goes to the eighth Air Force

22:24 Museum and to the 100th bomb group foundation, full stop, right? Like 1000%. You can check

22:30 that out. You can call the publisher like, that's a thing. Like people say a lot of stuff

22:34 that's not true. And that's like 1000%. Right. So that's the first thing. I know my grandfather

22:40 worked really hard on this book. I want to like shout this from the rooftops because

22:43 I know how hard it is to write and my grandfather spent so long doing research. He didn't just

22:48 like print his diaries. My grandfather did an insane amount of research, right? So all

22:53 of that being said, when you read this book, it makes you feel like how I felt when I walked

22:59 out of Top Gun and I was like, I want to go enlist. I want to go fight for my country.

23:04 And I think that we all need to remember these young boys. Yes. Thousands of lives lost.

23:10 I think it was like 28,000 men or 26,000 men died. I need to go back and look, right?

23:16 That's a lot of people. And I get that that if my kids decide to go join the Air Force

23:21 or go join the military or the army or go be a Navy Seal or whatever, that they might not

23:24 come back. But you also might not come back if you drive to the corner in your car, right?

23:29 So I'm not going to tell my kids what to do. And I want them, you know, if they want

23:34 to serve their country, that's awesome. Like, I have gotten to know the Air Force. I have

23:39 become really good friends with former Governor of Texas, Rick Perry, our former Energy Secretary,

23:44 right? I've gotten to know a lot of vets, Marcus LaTrell and his brother, Morgan, right,

23:52 down in Texas. I've gotten to know just people in general. And I think it's awesome veterans,

23:57 right? And active duty military. So I wish I had had the chance to serve, to be totally

24:02 honest with you. I think it's awesome. And I think there's a risk with anything that

24:05 you do. So if my kids want to do it, I would be if one of my kids joined the Air Force,

24:10 I would be so effing proud. Yeah, I've heard that from a ton of people

24:16 that that are in your position as well. And I've heard that from Gold Star widows who lost

24:21 their husbands and have kids that want to be just like Dada, who was a green beret or

24:25 Navy seal or something like that. And that's like, that's like a different level of patriotism

24:30 and a different level. Like when you have that gold star and you have that folded up flag

24:34 on your mantle, and you can still say something like that, it's almost overwhelming. But to

24:38 go back to luck of the draw, to go back to even really the beginning of the book, and

24:42 we'll walk through your grandfather's life. And just to be honest, guys, right here from

24:45 the beginning, there's so much detail in this book. It's like an embarrassment of riches

24:50 that Frank put into this book. And like I gave this book to one of my buddies who's a pilot

24:54 who's actually deployed right now. And I was like, dude, I think I'm too dumb to even understand

24:58 like some of the flight stuff and some of the details in here. And he just kind of he's

25:01 kind of laughed at me because you know, it's like you dumb civilian, but it's like, you

25:05 know, there's so much detail in here where we're barely going to be scratching the surface.

25:08 And then there's stuff in there like parts of it are a page turner. And then other stuff

25:12 like, you know, if you want to skip it, you can. I mean, to me, it's great from start to

25:16 finish, but I'm biased. But of course, there's like a lot of jargon and he did a lot of research.

25:22 There's a lot of data. And if you read the reviews from all the places where like it

25:25 turns out, because I'm not an author, but it turns out if you write a book, you really

25:28 want some reviews in some of these places like Library Journal or Kirkus Publishers Weekly.

25:33 And they're all like, this is great for anybody that loves military history, right? But especially

25:37 when you get to the parts where he was a prisoner of war, and he's talking about being in the

25:41 prison camps and stuff. And then there were the where he was in the same prison camp as

25:45 the great escape, right? So when you start getting into that stuff and they're digging

25:49 out and trying to dig out with tunnels and stuff, like, that's really cool. You know,

25:54 that's really neat. He really takes you there. Right. That's the narrative power of the story.

25:59 Because if you're if you're the detail oriented person, dude, you're going to nerd out. But

26:03 also, if you want a narrative to carry you through a story, you're going to get that

26:05 as well. Because even in the book, you get into, you know, or he gets into, you know,

26:09 why he even wanted to join the military and why he wanted to become a pilot. But there's

26:12 a very interesting quote from the introduction of the book, which was written by Ian Hawkins,

26:17 or Hawkins, which I'll read here, during the perilous period in which Frank Murphy flew

26:21 21 daylight combat missions, the odds of returning safely were three to one against that fact

26:29 in itself speaks volumes. Okay, so talk to me a little bit about the fact that it seemed

26:34 like at this time in because it wasn't even the air force. They didn't even have an air

26:37 force at this time. It was just basically they're just kind of getting this off the ground.

26:41 It seemed like the United States military were throwing human suffering and experimentation

26:46 at the problem of World War two, trying to gain air superiority during the war. And again,

26:52 again, guys, I said three to one against that. Those were the odds that these guys were dealing

26:57 with and they all saddled up anyway. So just talk to me about kind of what that was like

27:01 at that time in terms of these pilots basically figuring it out on the fly. Forgive the pun.

27:08 I love it. I love a good pun. Even if you didn't mean it, that was good. We need like

27:12 a but I'm pumped. I actually didn't mean it. And as I was saying, it was like, Oh, you nerd,

27:17 stop it. But yeah, I like it. So, you know, look, my grandfather loved his country. I think

27:23 like many who were growing up in in the United States, like patriotism was high, right? Even

27:31 though they had gone through the Great Depression. After my grandfather heard about Pearl Harbor,

27:37 he immediately enlisted. And this is before the draft had been reinstated. So he knew that

27:43 he would either get drafted or go enlist. And he, you know, really, really wanted to be

27:50 a pilot. He had bad vision up until the end of his life. And although, you know, he wanted

27:57 to be a pilot, they said, you're really smart. And we need navigators. So would you be a navigator?

28:03 And so he was basically what modern day GPS is, right? Except it was him with little tools

28:09 in the front of a plane with a map trying to get you safely to where you go and come back.

28:15 And I would say that him being such a calm person is probably why he was perfect for

28:21 that job because he was not easily rattled, right? And that's the kind of person that

28:26 you want, like leading the way. These guys didn't have very much, they had no experience

28:33 most of them had never served in the military before. And you're going through this training,

28:38 but you've never seen combat. And it's hard to fathom what combat looks like. And so,

28:43 you know, after training in the United States in different parts of the of the US, he gets

28:50 sent overseas with his with his crew. And the plane was called [inaudible] bungalow, which

28:56 is like my favorite name of an airplane. And it's because they said that there are a bunch

29:01 of [inaudible] who never knew where they were going next. And so, you know, they start flying

29:08 these missions. And a lot of people didn't agree with it because they were these daylight

29:11 bombing raids. And the military really felt as though we were not, you know, accurately

29:17 hitting our targets. And that the best way to do it would be doing it during the day.

29:22 But doing that during the day obviously makes you a target up in the sky. And so the Germans

29:29 were just picking us off. And that's why we lost so many my grandfather's group. So if

29:34 you don't know anything about, you know, the Air Force or how it was in World War two,

29:39 there was the eighth Air Force eighth Air Force still exists today within the Air Force are

29:44 squadrons and within the squadrons are bomb groups. My grandfather was in the 418 squadron,

29:49 the 100th bomb group. Well, that ended up being nicknamed the bloody hundredth nobody truly

29:54 knows why. And that is actually going to be everybody's going to learn about the 100th

30:00 in the fall on Apple TV. Because Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg are making a television

30:04 show called Masters of the Air starring Austin Butler. You might have seen him in Elvis recently.

30:10 And so you're going to learn all about the 100th on the screen. My grandfather is actually

30:14 a character in that. But back to what you were saying, I mean, these were very perilous.

30:19 A lot of men died. And as soon as my grandfather would come back to the barracks and come back

30:22 to the base, you would always be seeing he would be seeing someone's trunk and belongings

30:27 being gathered because they were either captured or killed and sent back home. Right. So I'm

30:32 sure my grandfather had a lot of post traumatic stress, not to mention that when they were

30:38 on their 21st mission during something called Black Week, my grandfather had to parachute

30:44 out of his aircraft that was plummeting to the earth on fire. And two of his men died

30:49 that day. Right. So it's actually like lucky that he got captured. And it's insane what

30:56 these guys went through. And day after day, they got up there in these, if you've never

31:01 been in a B 17, let me tell you, I have, they are tin cans. They are not comfortable. You're

31:08 crouched down. It's absolutely freezing cold too. And you're in these flight suits that

31:15 have like electric currents in them. They're like, they're like heating pads, you know?

31:20 And the whole thing is just wild, right? And you got to keep your cool and you got to shoot

31:23 your gun and you got to stay calm and you got to get there and you got to hit the target

31:28 and you got to get back and you're watching planes all around, you go down. And my grandfather

31:32 was injured. He like, like I said, when his plane was hit, shrapnel was in his arm and

31:36 stayed in his arm until the day he died. Yeah. And we'll certainly get more into the

31:41 next one. That was a long answer. But anyway, no, like that. That's scared. These guys

31:45 were terrified. Okay. And they went and they did it every single day. Like Tom Hanks says

31:51 on the cover of my grandfather's book, how did these boys do such things? They were boys.

31:56 Right. I'll read the quote here from the cover of the book in the pursuit of authenticity

32:00 of accurate history and undeniable courage. No words, no matter more than I was there.

32:06 You'd look at the draw in the life of Frank Murphy and ponder this. How did those boy boys

32:11 do such things? When I read military memoirs, Chloe, when I read military history, any

32:15 of those types of things, that's the thing that I'm overwhelmed by is how they were able

32:19 to do these things and how they were able to be alive to tell the story because we're

32:23 so soft in our modern era, we get really, really frustrated when our Wi-Fi doesn't work

32:28 on an airplane or whenever our mocha comes a little bit, you know, lukewarm or something

32:33 like that. But you did mention in your answer there, Chloe, you mentioned the word lucky.

32:37 So I actually want to read a quote here from the book, which will kind of get us into how

32:41 we even know that that is titled this. So here's the quote. Although it was my 11th

32:46 mission and depressing losses were not new to me. I was profoundly affected by the African

32:50 shuttle mission of August 17th, 1943. Nine of our aircraft with their crews, more than

32:56 half the attacking force of the 100th BG. That's bomb group were lost. Dozens of bright

33:02 talents and men were gone. They were close friends with whom I had enjoyed so many hours

33:06 of joy and so much camaraderie. And yes, occasional sorrow and anguish, both on and

33:10 off duty, they were gone and one fell swoop. Why some of us survived while others did not

33:15 was a complete mystery, though some though some suggest otherwise courage and skill played

33:19 little part in an airman's likelihood of survival in the great air battles over Europe in the

33:24 Second World War. One was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, or he was not a bullet

33:30 had your name on it or it didn't. It was the luck of the draw. It was as simple as that.

33:36 So Chloe, I've talked to men that were as forward as you could possibly be forward in

33:43 the spec ops community. Okay, so these were the guys that were constantly being shot at

33:47 and hearing their stories about a guy dying right next to them or them zigging and their

33:52 other buddy zagging and they made it and their buddy didn't and the level of guilt that they

33:56 feel about that is astonishing. But at the end of the day, it depends on your worldview

34:02 certainly, but it's like if you think we're just highly evolved chimps that wear pants

34:06 and talk to each other, then yeah, the bullet just didn't have your name on it. But then

34:09 for other people, it's like, maybe you were left behind to tell the story. Maybe you were

34:13 left behind to do those things. And we can we can look at stories like that, Chloe, going

34:16 back to to the ancient war. So the, you know, Peloponnesian wars and things like that, these

34:21 people that survived and there was no reason to suggest why they did, but they are telling

34:25 the story. Do you feel that angst? Because even just describing it not being a family

34:30 member, having not served myself, I can kind of feel the dissonance.

34:34 I mean, it goes back to the title, luck of the draw. I don't know if I I don't have

34:41 the answers as to whether or not your life is predestined, right? Like, are you meant

34:46 to die a certain day? Is it luck? Could I go outside and get hit by a car after this interview?

34:52 God, I hope not. I have a lot of other things I want to achieve in my life. But could I

34:57 go out and do that and was today the day I was meant to die? I don't even know. I don't

35:01 even think that being Christian can answer that question. Like, I'm Christian and I don't

35:07 have those answers and I don't even know. I don't really know what my grandfather thought

35:12 about that. I think that the title probably just says that it really just came down to

35:15 luck and it's unfair. And when your time comes, it comes. And, you know, I never spoke to

35:21 my grandfather as an adult about post traumatic stress. And I know we don't call it PTSD anymore.

35:27 I'm doing a piece on it for CNN, but we call it post traumatic stress. And I'm learning

35:30 a lot about it. Obviously, he had that. Obviously, he had survivor's guilt. And I think that

35:36 he reconciled all of that by putting pen to paper and just being someone who was good

35:41 at writing a smart guy, he ended up becoming a lawyer. And he was just kind of like, you

35:45 know, a secret closeted, amazing writer, right? Because like, you can want to write a book

35:50 and you can want to pay tribute to somebody special or your service men, but you might

35:56 not be able to do it. And the fact that he was able to do it and do it so well is really

36:00 incredible and all the research he put into it. I think he had survivor's guilt. I think

36:04 that's very obvious in the book. You know, but the thing is, is like my mom and her siblings,

36:10 well, my grandfather came back from the war and he got married. My grandma said that she

36:15 didn't even know he had been a POW. It was his parents who told her he never talked about

36:19 it. He never seemed bothered by it. He was a, you know, didn't take it out by drinking

36:24 or physical abuse or any of those kinds of ways that people might have coped back then.

36:30 Because we weren't having the conversations about it that we are now. I think that it

36:34 was just something he buried away, dealt with in his own way. And he put it all down in

36:41 this book. He certainly did. And as I was reading the book, Chloe, mindset was a word

36:46 that keep kept coming to mind. Resilience. Obviously you can't read a book like this and,

36:51 you know, of a survivor of the stuff that even more so the stuff that we're going to

36:55 be getting into and think, well, that's not a really resilient person. That's kind of

36:57 a stupid thing. But whenever you hear these people talk, whether you're talking about

37:03 somebody that fought in the global war in terror, someone that fought in Vietnam, either of

37:07 the world wars or any of the war, the wars behind that, you get a sense as to what these

37:11 men felt like they were fighting for, because it's easy for me to sit back in my air conditioned

37:15 studio, then to talk about, well, what these men were doing at that time. But there's a

37:19 quote. This is my favorite quote from the entire book. So guys, if you hate hearing

37:23 me read out loud, you're going to hate this episode. Because there's so many quotable

37:26 things here. But this is my favorite quote from the book. There was no single reason

37:30 why men who looked to death in the face over Europe in 1943, went back into battle day

37:35 after day. Duty, honor, country played their part certainly, but not because these precepts

37:41 were drilled into us by the army. It was just the way we were. In my view, however, the

37:46 single driving force that kept us going was the bond one felt with the men who stood steadfastly

37:51 beside him when all their lives were at stake. When I saw my crew climb into the airplane,

37:57 I had to go and help. However, much combat soldiers wish to escape the horror of war,

38:03 honor and devotion to a special brotherhood shared by only those who have been in battle

38:07 together keeps drawing them across unknown fields and skies to their rendezvous with

38:12 destiny. At the end of the day, combat soldiers do not fight for love of country or because

38:17 they hate the enemy. They fight for each other. And I remember reading that and it's like,

38:23 yes, that was like a rubber stamp to every every man that I've talked to that has lost

38:28 someone in battle. Yes, they love this country. Many of them signed up after 9/11 to go and

38:33 even the score. And you can have your opinions about that, but a lot of these men did that

38:37 specifically for their love of this country. And then when they got there, when they got

38:41 through training, when they got through buds or the cue course or flight school or any

38:45 of those types of things, then it became about the man to his left and the man to his right

38:49 and fighting in a phalanx of sorts where you are covering the guy to your left as the guy

38:53 to your right is covering you. Did you feel like when you were growing up Chloe, did you

38:58 get that sense from from hearing your dad or your grandfather rather talk about these

39:03 men to talking about the battle? Or was that something that really just kind of came out

39:07 in the writing of the story? You know, again, I think it came out in the writing of the

39:12 book for me because I've been able to go back to it so many times for answers because he's

39:17 not here anymore. But he did talk about a particular death march. It was when he was

39:23 being moved from one prison camp to another and it was in the snow. It was freezing temperatures

39:31 and they had pitiful belongings, he said, and shoes with holes and they were tired,

39:38 they were hungry, they had lice, they had pneumonia, they didn't have good nutrition,

39:44 and they were marching for days in these terrible conditions because they knew that they were

39:52 eventually going to be liberated, the Germans. And so they were trying to delay that and

39:58 have these guys move to a different prison camp. And my grandfather writes in the book

40:02 and he talked to me about it too, growing up about how his fellow men, they would collapse

40:07 in the snow and they didn't want to continue and how they would beg and plead with one

40:12 another. I mean, it's freezing cold, every man for themselves, right? You know, like

40:17 if someone passes out next to you, you know, you don't want to get in trouble for helping

40:21 them, but they stopped, they carried each other on each other's backs, they begged each other

40:26 to continue and this will to live. So I do agree that it came down to his fellow men.

40:33 And that's also what my grandmother, who's 93, we were talking last weekend and we were

40:37 doing an interview together. How cool is that? I know, I should have had her here, but she

40:41 doesn't have a computer. And she was saying that my grandfather didn't just write the

40:46 book for his kids and grandkids and future generations. He wrote it as a tribute to the

40:51 men he served with, who died and lived. So I'm just glad I have this book as a resource

40:59 because there are a lot of questions that I don't have the answers to. There's so much

41:02 I wish that I could ask him about. You know, I do have one of the shoes that he wore in

41:07 that death march. It's a wooden clog. Wow. I have it on my Instagram. If anybody wants

41:11 to see it, he actually wore it. So in the book, he writes about wearing these leather

41:15 shoes and trading shoes with a fellow soldier who had these like wooden clogs. And because

41:21 you're walking through the snow, I mean, these are not waterproof. So he wanted the

41:24 wooden shoes to keep his feet dry, although they're huge. So I don't know how he did that.

41:29 And I have one of those shoes. So I've given everything to the museums and to the foundations

41:34 and to the places because I think everybody should be able to see all these things and

41:38 learn. I don't think that they do anybody justice sitting in a closet, collecting dust.

41:44 But I do have in my home office, the shoe on top of some books and I'm not ready to part

41:49 with that just yet. And that and that and that to me, like my grandfather's story, even though

41:55 he's not here anymore, it's taught me a lot about resilience. We lost our home in a fire

42:02 right before the pandemic started and at the beginning of 2020. And I think that when you

42:06 know my grandfather's story or you know someone in your family's life who's gone through adversity,

42:12 it really puts things into perspective. So as an adult and as a mom, looking back on my

42:16 grandfather's experience really helped me deal with some of the challenges and the [inaudible] that

42:20 I've had to deal with just in my own life, right? And reading this book also puts a lot

42:24 of things into perspective. You were saying earlier like, your coffee's cold or you know,

42:30 there's traffic or you know, whatever it is and everybody has their own heart and everybody

42:34 has their own [inaudible] that they're dealing with, right? But I think that you're not getting

42:39 up into an airplane every day, you know, being shot at. So I think it really does put things

42:45 into perspective for you. So if you read this book, you might walk away and be like, you

42:48 know what, life's not that bad. Right. So I heard something here recently. It was a Warren

42:54 Buffett quote and I or is at least attributed to him. He's like, look, there are 8 billion

42:58 people on the planet. If if they if your life were a marble and we were to put 8 billion

43:03 marbles in a big jar and you were to shake that marble up and ask the person, do you

43:08 want to reach your hand into the jar? I know this one. I know what you're saying. Yep.

43:13 And that's your and that's the life you take. If you would not take that bet, if you would

43:17 not reach into that jar and pull out a marble, that's because you are blessed. And because

43:22 the chance that you pull out a marble and you're a young lady in North Korea or something

43:27 like that. Yeah, it's going to be a way different life for you. No, I know what you're talking

43:31 about. Yeah, no, I know. I don't want to reach into the jar and I'll take my heart. Yeah.

43:36 Well, and that's the thing, you know, you mentioned the world resilience and I mentioned

43:39 it as well here at McDonald's Life. We we try to equip men to push back darkness by providing

43:43 content that allows them to develop spiritual, mental and physical resilience. And that's

43:49 way easier to do back in the day because you'll read these, you know, these excursions to

43:53 the South Pole that happened 150 years ago or these people that were sold into slavery

43:57 because their ship wrecked on the, you know, west coast of Africa or something like that.

44:02 Like that's actual hardship. It's like, look, you had a lukewarm mocha. They were drinking

44:06 camel urine to survive. It's like, look, can we not compare the two things? It's like,

44:10 you broke a nail in the subway. I got it. But also though, Kyle, I'd say that, you know,

44:19 everybody has their own hard their own truth, their own [inaudible] they're dealing with. And I

44:25 have my own stuff going on right now and in life and, you know, everybody has their own

44:33 personal stuff going on, right? So I might not be in a prison camp, but I might have

44:38 a really bad day and I can call it a bad day, you know. My grandfather was really religious

44:43 though. He was a devout Catholic. I think that his spirituality and his faith really

44:50 helped him. He also was really big into music. I played piano my whole life. I don't play

44:55 anymore. I wish I did. I think it would probably be really therapeutic for me. But he played

45:02 in the prisoner of war band, by the way. And that he talks about how music saved his life.

45:08 And I really just, he really was special. And everybody, a lot of people I know love their

45:14 grandparents or love their an aunt or an uncle and all of that. And, you know, when I see

45:20 my grandpa was one of the good ones, he really was. Like, you're not going to find any secrets

45:24 about him. He wasn't somebody that talked badly about people. He championed people, but

45:29 he was a very quiet person, very calm, very peaceful. He didn't suck the energy out of

45:36 a room. Again, you would you never knew these kinds of stories. He wasn't bragadocious. A

45:41 lot of people, even in the family didn't even know what he went through until he wrote this

45:44 book. And that's why I'm screaming it from the rooftops. I'm no World War II expert and

45:49 I am no expert on military history, current past or future. You know, I'm just a granddaughter

45:55 who loved my grandpa. And I have a platform, I guess you could call it. And I want to use

46:02 that platform to try to a get this book out there, be raise money for veterans. And, you

46:09 know, would it be cool to make him a best seller posthumously? Yeah, that'd be pretty

46:13 damn cool. I'm not though holding out hope for that. But I do hope that people read the

46:18 book and are inspired by it, you know, well, and Chloe, you're the product of a life well

46:23 lived, right? If you think about it at its most core level, because that's what men that

46:28 are on the other side that have the survivors guilt, the one that, you know, they didn't

46:32 take the bullet, the guy next to them took the bullet. When those guys kind of get themselves

46:36 sorted out, what many of them do is they try to live the best life possible so as to honor

46:42 the sacrifices of the brothers that died around them. And so that that's a very important

46:47 thing to talk about. And let's kind of weave it all the way back to black week, because

46:50 you mentioned black week earlier, that was October 8th through 14th of 1943. And it's

46:55 called black week for a reason because there was a lot of death that happened. A lot of

46:58 people were killed in flying in different missions. And it was during that week in Munster,

47:02 Germany on October the 10th. So right there in the middle of black week, where your grandfather's

47:06 life changed forever, whenever his plane was shot out of the sky. And as you mentioned,

47:11 two of the people that were on board did not make it, but he did safely make it to the

47:15 ground on his parachute, which is a miracle of all miracles. Because again, guys, this

47:19 was in the 1940s. This isn't like people that are base jumping right now to get Instagram

47:23 lives. Like that was, that was a precarious thing to fall from an airplane and land safely

47:28 on the ground from from a parachute. The only problem is, is he touched down in Germany,

47:33 right? And so just kind of take us through some of those details again, guys, to get

47:36 the full picture, you got to get it from the horse's mouth here from the book, look at

47:40 the draw, but take us through that. And then landing in Germany, and one of the first things

47:44 he hears is, you know, some, some woman tell him for you, the war is over.

47:49 I love it. I love that you know all of this so well. It makes me very happy. It warms

47:54 my heart. You're, you're giving me goosebumps. Um, yes, my grandfather flew 21 missions.

48:00 Um, I think you had to fly like 25 or 26 again. Yeah, I might, I might have it wrong. Yeah,

48:06 before you could, you could be done before you could be done. So he was close. He was

48:10 getting to the end. Um, and it was October 10th, 1943. And, um, out of the 13 bombers,

48:17 the 13 planes that went up that day in the 100th bomb group 12 of the 13 were shot down.

48:23 And so first time my grandfather is jumping out of an airplane, you better hope that that

48:27 parachute works. And he took him about 20 minutes to land down in the German farmer's field.

48:34 And I think that there was relief to be captured. Two of his men died that day. So it's really

48:40 sad. And I think about that a lot, that that's two generations of families and lives that

48:44 never existed just by chance that day, if you want to call it chance. Um, the only plane

48:51 that returned that day was piloted by Rosie Rosenthal. And fun fact, his son Dan Rosenthal,

48:59 who for a very long time was the president of the 100th bomb group foundation. And they

49:06 host these reunions every year. And I go to them and I've gotten to get, I've gotten

49:10 to know a lot of the families from the 100th bomb group, which has been really, really

49:15 wonderful. Dan is one of my best friends. That's awesome. So that's crazy. That even

49:23 just makes me emotional. We are best friends. We talk all the time, slight age difference

49:28 between us, but we talk all the time. And, um, we were talking last night on the phone.

49:33 Yes. He is just one of my best friends. And I love him dearly. Can you imagine that my

49:37 grandfather that day, the one plane that returns home, the day that he got shot down and is

49:43 a prisoner of war for the next 18 months, that the guy piloting the one plane that gets back

49:49 that his granddaughter one day is going to be friends with his son. I mean, that's crazy.

49:56 That's a small world right there. Um, my grandfather, uh, was a prisoner of war. Like

50:02 I said, for a year and a half, his parents didn't know if he was dead or alive. My grandmother

50:06 loves to tell me that my grandfather's dad would call the White House every day demanding

50:12 to know where his son was. Yeah. Um, he was upset with the government, upset with the

50:18 president. Um, and they, you know, weren't, weren't, weren't thrilled with the war. Um,

50:24 and, uh, despite, you know, the collective patriotism and love for our country, right?

50:30 We had different opinions, even back then, people were divided. Um, maybe not like we

50:35 are now. And my grandfather was taken to, uh, after being interrogated and whatnot, he

50:41 was taken to a prison camp. Um, and it was the prison camp. It was called Stalag Luf

50:47 III. And that is where the great escape happened. So if you ever have a chance to watch that

50:51 movie with Steve McQueen, it's a great, great movie. Um, and the next 18 months were really

50:58 hard, but it was when he was transferred to another prison camp called Stalag Seven

51:03 A is when his luck got even worse. And that was after the death march, um, in the snow

51:09 and the conditions were awful. Um, the things that my grandfather went through, uh, is crazy.

51:15 You know, when I went to England, uh, to see the set of masters of the air, the TV show

51:21 that comes out on Apple this fall, uh, that Hanks and Spielberg are doing that I mentioned,

51:26 they recreated the war. They recreated these prison camps. I actually got to walk through

51:32 a prison camp, like a to scale prison camp, something that my grandfather would have been

51:36 in. So that was really kind of insane and surreal because they, they had it also like

51:41 preserved as if like, you know, they built it as if it's like really like, like, like

51:48 I step back in time, right? And I went through like what the barracks would have been like

51:52 and everything. It was crazy. I have pictures, but I'm not allowed to post them. Okay. Well,

51:56 I'll show you. I'll show you privately. I was not saying like you can at least show me.

52:00 I won't post them. Or if I do, I'll just be like, I got them off the internet. But the

52:04 thing that's interesting, the way that you talk about is like, so, so he was shot down.

52:08 He was captured. It was very weird, almost to hear him describe the relief to be captured.

52:14 And you know, when, because that was one thing that the German people that if they knew any

52:17 sentence sentence in English, it was for you, the war is over. And again, like the, your,

52:23 your war is over, but now you kind of have a second war. I mean, he's POW number 3090.

52:28 Like that was, that was his new identity. And again, by the way, fun fact, I just want

52:33 to tell you guys just to show you the type of person that my grandfather was. And he also

52:36 just loved research and meeting people. This is back before 23 and me. This is back before

52:43 like ancestry.com. My grandfather goes and somehow finds the family and the farm that

52:49 he landed in decades later. He met the family and some of the people that took him in. And

52:56 he became friends with them. And they were pen pals and they wrote letters to each other.

53:00 But my grandfather went back there, right? Like no hard feelings. My grandfather, and

53:04 he writes about that in the book. My grandfather even ended up, I mean, he writes in the book

53:09 about saying that he hopes that the planes that he shot at that those people survived,

53:13 right? I mean, my grandfather ended up like having dinner and becoming friendly with different

53:20 German pilots that shot it shot at him. Chloe, let's let's dig into that a little bit actually,

53:27 because you know, the very famous story that comes up every frickin Christmas is I think

53:30 it was during World War One, whenever the two sides played soccer together, like on Christmas

53:35 Eve or Christmas Day or something like that. And then the next day they went back to basically

53:39 shelling each other to death and dying in trench warfare. Okay, I'm trying to be careful because

53:44 I don't want to go off into like conspiracy theory land and give anybody that's currently

53:47 listening to this with a tin foil hat on something to talk about.

53:50 And I wouldn't know the answers. And I wouldn't know the answers anyway. But I can opine about

53:54 what I think about what he was thinking. And he writes about it in the book. Right, which

53:58 he does. I guess my question is in the vein of is there are some men that go to war that

54:03 went to even the score again, look at right after 9/11 right after Pearl Harbor. These men

54:08 want to go and protect their country, protect the homeland, all those different things.

54:11 But then you hear these stories of veterans of the Vietnam War or the the GWAT or something

54:15 like that, that they will befriend some of these, some of these people, I guess GWAT's

54:20 a little different because it's kind of hard to make a friend with a guy that's in the

54:22 Taliban. But like these people that will kind of go back and it's like, it's almost like

54:26 they did know why they were trying to kill one another. But it's like whenever we pause

54:30 long enough to be like there are forces beyond us and governments beyond us that are putting

54:35 us here. And we had no choice but to be here. But they didn't want to be like they didn't

54:39 want to be shooting at somebody else. That's almost like what I feel like your grandfather

54:42 was almost reluctantly doing his job, if that makes sense.

54:45 Well, I think that look for everybody, it's different and you know, people might not see

54:49 each other as human or people might, you know, again, like you said, even in the score and

54:52 for everybody's reason for enlisting or unless you're drafted is different. But what I will

54:58 say is that a lot of this stuff came in hindsight, you know, like the saying goes, hindsight's

55:02 2020. So in retrospect, my grandfather later in life had these realizations, whether he

55:08 had these realizations in real time during the war, I'm not exactly sure. But what we

55:13 do know is that later in life is when he sort of looked for these answers saw each other

55:18 as human. So I think that when you look back at my grandfather and the choices that he

55:23 made later in life, whether he always felt this way or whether it was something like

55:27 hindsight is 2020. So they say, I think that's really true. You know, going back to the German

55:33 farmers field or meeting with German pilots, I think that, you know, he writes in the book

55:38 that, you know, we're all human and we all have our own truth and our own perspective

55:41 and our own meaning and our own reasons for doing something. And at the end of the day,

55:47 it's not black and white and it is complicated and it is complex. But my grandfather had a

55:52 lot of empathy. And I think that, you know, when you're 19, 18, 19, 20 years old, you

55:58 might view life and view war and view things differently than you might view it when you're

56:02 50, 60, 70 years old and a life well lived, you know, my grandfather died at 85. I know,

56:11 I should know this, but let's just pretend it's 85, it was 85 years old, I think, he writes

56:17 the book in his 70s. And it publishes when he's like about 80, right? So his perspectives

56:28 are, you know, there's been a lot of time removed a lot of time to think about it all.

56:34 When you have a lot of time to marinate in the things that you experienced, you have

56:38 a lot of times to put things into different categories. And again, your grandfather led

56:42 a very successful life thereafter. So much so that he almost, to a degree got lost in

56:47 his success as a, as a, as a businessman and as a family member and as a, as a patriarch

56:52 of y'all's family, because that's easy to do when you're a successful person or whenever

56:56 you have a lot of people that are depending on you or that like you, is that you can kind

56:59 of like compartmentalize some of those things that happened. But I do want to kind of go

57:03 all the way back. And again, guys, I'm going to say this for the million time in this podcast,

57:06 there's so many details in the book, you have to get the book to read it for yourself to

57:09 really get into it. Because at one point, obviously he was liberated. And I've tried

57:14 to put myself there, Chloe, where I'd like, imagine me living under this, uh, de, in

57:20 this depraved state, where I lose, you know, X number of pounds and I'm, I'm basically

57:26 skin and bones. And then I'm liberated and it's not freed. It's not saved. It's liberated.

57:32 It's like a different thing. And that didn't mean the war was over for some of these people.

57:37 Like some people died when they were trying to get their weight back up because we didn't

57:40 know that you couldn't just feed candy bars to somebody that was, you know, that lost

57:43 80 pounds of their normal body weight. But so for a lot of that, that's not like this

57:47 glorious story for everybody. But take us back to his liberation because man, it's just,

57:51 it's such a crazy thing that most of us will literally thank God never experience.

57:55 I know. Well, okay, let me get some of my notes out because I want to, I know there's

58:00 a lot of people here that are, that are listening to this who might be experts on this. So I

58:05 want to make sure that I, that I say it correctly. So, um, it, well, this was in Mooseburg, the

58:14 prison camp, the second prison camp. And I just want to tell you all, it was designed

58:17 to hold about 10 to 12,000 people. And it had over a hundred thousand prisoners there.

58:23 So first of all, like, this was a tough time. Yeah. Sort of made the previous prison camp

58:29 look a bit like a country club. The buildings were infested with fleas, bed bugs, lice.

58:37 He was there for about just just a couple of months. And they had been seeing P-51s flying

58:43 over the camp. And they knew that that something was up that that something was coming. My

58:51 grandfather, he developed pneumonia, dysentery. Like I said, lice, he had lost a ton of weight.

58:59 Um, and the 14th Armored Division, um, showed up on April 28th. And, uh, they went out and

59:09 they had wanted to have a truce. And the Germans wanted to negotiate the surrender of this

59:15 prison camp. Um, and the American forces demanded that the following morning that the camp had

59:21 to be, uh, unconditionally surrendered. But the Germans, they wanted to have some negotiations.

59:28 And that is when the Americans, you know, refused to negotiate and they started attacking. Um,

59:34 and there was a, like a, like a little mini war going on right outside of the prison camp.

59:41 And they all knew, you know, my grandfather writes about it. They, they knew that hopefully

59:47 good news was coming their way. Um, but this was a very emotional moment, uh, for my grandfather,

59:53 General Patton, who, very famous, uh, he like breaks down the gates in his tank. Um, and

1:00:00 he, you know, the gates come crashing down. The American flag is hoisted up, uh, nearby

1:00:06 in the center of town. Um, and Patton is, you know, walking around the prison camp and

1:00:13 looking at all of these POWs and he walks up to my grandfather who's standing there with

1:00:19 a group of people. My grandfather loved to tell the story growing up that General Patton

1:00:23 walked over where my grandfather was standing. And he looked at them and took to look at how

1:00:29 terrible they looked, right? And how malnourished they looked. And he said, excuse my language.

1:00:36 He said, I'm going to kill these sons of [inaudible] for this. And we would always laugh when grandpa

1:00:41 would say that because he never cursed. Um, but yeah, really powerful, um, moment. Um,

1:00:50 and then, you know, my grandfather eventually made his way home. It was not a quick, quick

1:00:55 time to get home. Uh, he was transferred to France to something called camp Lucky Strike.

1:01:01 Um, and then eventually, uh, he was on a part of a ship convoy that took 12 days to cross

1:01:07 the ocean and that he got to Boston. Um, and then he eventually called his parents, who

1:01:13 he hadn't talked to. Um, it looks like what I have here, my notes, he hadn't heard. They

1:01:20 hadn't heard from him since September, 1944. And it was now June 1945. Um, and his mother

1:01:27 answered the phone crying and his parents, they came and picked him up and he said that

1:01:32 was it. That was it. And he never talked about it again. He pocketed it away. He went

1:01:37 back to school on the GI Bill. He went back to Emory University, uh, majored in business

1:01:43 with a minor in science. And then, uh, not that long later, he meets my grandmother,

1:01:47 has four kids with her and he goes on to live this life. And then he ended up working with

1:01:52 airplanes his whole life. He worked for Lockheed Martin. And as a lawyer, he negotiated those

1:01:56 airplane contracts. Um, but he had a love of planes that, you know, was a part of his

1:02:00 life till the day he died. Um, but he never talked about his experiences in the war until

1:02:07 he had grandkids. So my mom and her, her brothers and sisters, they didn't know what grandpa,

1:02:12 what their dad had been through. At all. My mom says, and my mom writes a section of

1:02:18 the foreword. If you guys get a chance to read it, my mom says that she didn't know really

1:02:24 anything that my grandfather went through until she read his book. And that's something that

1:02:29 I know to be true of other folks that have written books. And these are more people that

1:02:33 have, uh, fought and wars here recently, that when their kids get of age where it's appropriate,

1:02:37 they're like, Whoa, like dad did this. And it's like, and then that sparks up some conversations

1:02:43 because that's maybe not something that you sit around, you know, while you're on the couch

1:02:46 at a movie night with your seven year old or something like that, but it's something like

1:02:49 as a age, it's like, Hey, you need to understand what dad went through to come back to you.

1:02:53 And like, you know, just different things like that. It's just a different level. But

1:02:56 obviously, as you mentioned earlier, Khloe, your grandfather's story is going to be featured

1:03:00 prominently in an upcoming Apple TV plus television show called Masters of the Air. So that is

1:03:05 starring Tom Hanks, but it's a project that's being headed up by Steven Spielberg. So this

1:03:09 is a big deal. I don't know exactly when the release date or all that is, but maybe you

1:03:12 can give us some, some details that you have on that. And I guess what is, what was your

1:03:15 families or Frank's States involvement with that to make sure that they get the story,

1:03:20 right? Good question. Well, so I'm sure most of the listeners out there have either

1:03:26 heard of or seen band of brothers. So that was produced by Hanks, Steven Spielberg and

1:03:31 Tom Hanks. And then they did a TV show called the Pacific, about the Navy during World

1:03:37 War two. So band of brothers was about the army, then they did the Navy. And then they

1:03:42 always wanted to tell the air war. It's expensive. It takes a long time. They optioned a book

1:03:48 that everybody should read by Don Miller. He's a historian and it's called Masters of

1:03:53 the Air. And they decided many years ago, the year, I believe that my grandfather died,

1:03:58 the year the book came out in 2007, Masters of the Air, they optioned it. Tom Hanks and

1:04:03 Steven Spielberg. And they've been trying ever since to, to bring this to the screen.

1:04:08 So it's on Apple TV, comes out in the fall. There's no premiere date just yet. Like I

1:04:13 said, it stars Austin Butler. Jude Law's son is in it. A lot of great actors. The actor

1:04:19 playing my grandfather's name is Jonas Moore. My grandfather's not the star of this thing,

1:04:24 but I'm just grateful that he's a part of it. And you'll, you'll see him keep your eyes

1:04:28 out for, you know, Captain Frank Murphy. And actually, fun fact, Jonas Moore, who plays

1:04:33 my grandfather, he's a great British guy. He actually narrates the audio version of this

1:04:40 book, Luck at the Draw, my grandpa's book. So I thought that was a really full circle

1:04:44 moment. And I was really glad that that happened. No, nobody consulted us. I mean, luckily they

1:04:48 had the book, they had my grandfather's book, the writer, head writer, the show, John Orlov,

1:04:54 who also was a part of making band of brothers happen. He used my grandfather's book to write

1:05:00 the series to write Masters of the Year, but they didn't option my grandfather's book.

1:05:04 That's like legal jargon for like buying, buying the rights to the book. But they definitely

1:05:08 used the book as a reference, especially for the prisoner of war sections of the show.

1:05:14 But I haven't seen it. I went to the set. I know it's going to be amazing. I know that

1:05:18 it's going to teach a lot of people about World War II, the eighth Air Force, the 100th

1:05:23 bomb group, people who don't know about it, hopefully attract a younger group of people,

1:05:27 you know, like, like teach like this younger generation about what these young guys did.

1:05:32 So I think that also when you have a name like Austin Butler, people are going to want

1:05:36 to watch it. So, you know, he's having like a big, a big moment, a big year. So being

1:05:40 an entertainment reporter, it's really cool for me. Because it's like this like crazy

1:05:44 intersection of like my professional life. It's a show I would be covering anyway. And

1:05:49 now I get to like, you know, have my grandfather be part of it. But we didn't know that my

1:05:53 grandfather was going to be a character until like years and years later. And it was just

1:05:58 like really casually mentioned to us that he's a character. And I tried to just always

1:06:02 keep my cool. You know, because I would be excited about this, even if my grandfather

1:06:07 wasn't in it, right? It's not about me. It's not about us. We just, we're just excited.

1:06:12 But I do know that my grandfather would be so so happy, so excited. And, you know, Tom

1:06:17 Hanks, I reached out to him to see if he'd give us a quote for the cover of my grandfather's

1:06:21 book. And he did. And I'm so grateful to him and everybody over at Playtone in Amblin.

1:06:28 You know, I'm so excited because I love these men and women in these families and all of

1:06:32 them. And I'm just excited for their stories to be told.

1:06:37 And that's something that you're doing. That's something that you and your family have dedicated

1:06:40 your lives, you know, huge portions of your lives to make sure that that continues to

1:06:43 happen. So we've we've in and out of all kinds of details in this conversation. I really

1:06:47 appreciate all the time that you give me. But I do have one last question for you. What

1:06:51 is the legacy of Frank Murphy? And how do you want him to be remembered?

1:06:56 Mm kind, a kind, wonderful American. And I just hope that everybody, everybody knows

1:07:06 that. Like I said, we all have our hard, but grandpa worked really hard on this book and

1:07:12 the greatest gift that any listener out there can do for these men would be buy the book,

1:07:18 buy the book, give it to a friend, read it, share it, don't put it up on your shelf, give

1:07:23 it to somebody, and know that every dollar is going to go to the mighty eighth Air Force

1:07:27 Museum, which, you know, these are institutions that, you know, we should be preserving legacy.

1:07:34 These museums, they need to exist, but they need funding, right? And they need money to

1:07:38 exist. Same with the 100th Bomb Group Foundation. I mean, these are wonderful organizations

1:07:43 that you can look up and all the money goes there. And so it's what my grandfather would

1:07:48 have wanted. And I just hope that people read it and also like it and learn something new

1:07:55 and maybe leave feeling a little bit inspired. And and for those people that love to read

1:08:00 a book before a TV show or a movie comes out, here you go. Read this, read Masters of the

1:08:05 Air, and you'll you'll be all set for the series when it comes out.

1:08:10 Well, Chloe, that is all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?

1:08:15 Thank you. Just a big thank you. Absolutely. Chloe, I'm here. I'm going to mess up your

1:08:20 I'm first name and I was worried about messing up your last name. Chloe. Thank you for coming

1:08:24 on on don't the life of man's podcast. Thank you for having me.

1:08:29 There you go. Guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Chloe Milas, but before I let you

1:08:31 go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Adam Donald's life, our mission is

1:08:35 equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental and physical

1:08:39 resilience. So I've got links for you today. I've got two of them. One is a link to the

1:08:42 Amazon link where you could buy luck of the draw. And then also there is a website that

1:08:46 has a whole lot more information and it digs into some of the stuff that we talked about

1:08:49 today. That is the luck of the draw website. Thank you guys for listening to this episode.

1:08:53 Wherever you listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five star view.

1:08:57 If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an email

1:09:00 to info@andonton.life. That's I N F O at and on to not life. Follow us on Instagram

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1:09:08 to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.andonton.life. And as

1:09:13 always, we want to thank the band August Burns read for allowing us to use their music for

1:09:17 our content. The music on this podcast is our song, cutting the tides, which is off their

1:09:20 10th anniversary re recording of their album leveler. The links are in the description.

1:09:25 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual,

1:09:31 mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.

1:09:55 [Music]