CHARLES FAY | Raising Spiritually Strong Kids (Ep. 982)

Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. [music] This is Undaunted Life a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right guys, we got a special guest on the podcast today. His name is Charles Fay. So, he's a psychologist author consultant and speaker. He is the president of the Love and Logic Institute, and he is the author of the bestseller, Raising Mentally Strong Kids. And we've got a new book out right now that we're going to be talking about on today's podcast. It's called Raising Spiritually Strong Kids. I'll go ahead and read the subtitle. It's a long one. How to apply biblical principles with love and logic to bring up children who live with authentic faith. And so, obviously, this is a parenting discussion today, but it's much, much more than that. So, we get into from the very beginning, how did he even get into the psychology field? Where did that come from? But we talked about, okay, what about parents? Because I'm assuming there's a lot of them out there. It's not just me that struggle with anger towards their children. How in the world do we deal with that anger? But really, a through point of this discussion is where's the gospel in parenting? How can we show the gospel when we parent? How can we adjust our way of doing things so that our kids are getting the gospel just by how we act? because we talk about as well, we really took care of this right at the beginning. A lot of parents feel this burden not just for their children's salvation but over their spiritual development. So if their spiritual development isn't going quite right, whatever that means, the parents are just stressed. They're up nights, right? And you think about these kids that have maybe gone prodigal or maybe they're just not making the decisions you think that they should make and we feel like it's all on us and just the reality is it's just not. It's not up to us to make sure all these things are squared away, but it is up to us. the environment we put around them. We talk about parents and the mistakes that they make when they focus too much on their children's happiness, making sure that their kid is going to be happy. We talk about different forms of parenting and which ones are most appropriate, how important it is to make little allow little kids to make little mistakes where, you know, the the cost is affordable. We even got into a a little bit of a disagreement there. It went it went great. But, you know, he is not for spanking and I am for spanking and I went to the Bible to prove my case. And so we we talk about that and come through there as well. But then we talk about technology. We talk about what's appropriate for our kids at what ages, what things that we should help and make sure that they avoid. We got a little discussion of Charles Spurgeon in there. So guys, I really enjoyed my discussion with Charles. So without further ado, let's get into it. Charles Fay, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast. >> Uh great being with you. Thanks for having me. >> Well, you must have got the memo. You got the uh the nice shirt going there. You got what is that? The uh I I just forgot the pattern. What is that called? Uh, >> I I have no idea. I grab the first thing that I see. I stick it on. That's that's that's my that's the way I do it. >> Uh, flannel was uh what I was looking for, but uh, you know, it couldn't work out. But I will say there are people that think I own a shirt, Charles, because it's always a black V-neck. I got a whole stack of them sitting in my closet. And so when that's the first thing I see, so I grab it and just go upstairs so I don't even have to think about it. But you look good, sound good. Let's go ahead and launch into some of our questions today. Uh before we get into the newest book and you tell us all how to raise spiritually strong kids, uh I'm I'm just curious for you cuz I'm always curious, okay, how did someone go from a baby, you know, playing baseball, playing with G.I. Joe's, you know, eating bubble gum, you know, tripping over themselves as they were getting off a curb. How did they go from that to what they're doing now? And so, obviously, you've spent your career in the psychology field. And so, I'm just wondering for you, what was it about that field? What was it about even your family of origin that kind of led you down that path? Well, well, first of all, I I didn't start in the psychology field. I started uh being feeling like the dumbest kid in fourth grade. I mean, I struggled I struggled at school. I I loved to have fun. I wasn't a bad kid, but boy, do I irritate my teachers like crazy. Didn't think I could do anything. But man, could I fix cars. I've always loved cars. I've loved working with my hands. I became a psych uh I became a psychologist after uh doing a good stint working at a Oldmobile dealership in Tampa, Florida. And man, I loved it. But you know what? I wasn't meeting any girls at the mobile dealership. It it just And I went down to the community college. I'm like, I don't know. I I I I'm here for the right reason. Meet a nice girl. And I I started to realize I could learn and I just just a slow learner. And uh you know God has just led me along. Uh you know my dad uh is a is an educator. I came to work with him at the Love and Logic Institute. Uh and we just we just hit it off. I mean we had a we've had a great relationship. He's 92. Uh and I've just been blessed. Just it's just crazy. I've been blessed to work with with thousands and thousands of people all over the world. So uh yeah, it's God. So, you ask me how did I get here? God, that's the answer. >> Random question about cars. Okay. And then we'll get right back into the the normal stuff. >> Great. Now, now we're talking. Okay. >> Okay. So, so for me, I didn't grow up. So, I was too busy with sports in school. I didn't do a lot of other stuff. No one in my family hunted or fished. Uh, no one I my my dad wasn't like a tinkerer. Like, he didn't have an old car in the garage that he tinkered with. Now, he knew how to fix stuff, but I just I didn't really grow up fixing stuff. It's not really how my brain is wired. But then when you talk to some of these old-timers, because I I just recently uh became the new owner of my grandpa's 1979 Ford F-150 and I'm the third I'm the third owner of that that truck. It was my grandpa, my dad, now me. And so like even little things that I'm tinkering around with, even like changing out the battery or checking for a leak here or there. If you look at a modern vehicle, like if you look at my Chevy Silverado that I bought a year or two ago, that thing's like driving a laptop. You know what I mean? because you can't really tinker with it. You can't really fool with it. I had a I had a bulb go out in my um in my uh at at the back of the the vehicle, my tail light. And I'm thinking, "Oh, yeah. Okay. I just ran to AutoZone. I'm like, "Hey, can you just get me the uh the bulb for this?" And it the computer basically came up and said, "Haha, that's hilarious. Go to the dealer." I'm like, "What is what is going on? Why can't you just sell me this bulb?" Well, lo and behold, they had to replace the entire tail light because one bulb went out because this attaches to this thing which talks to that thing which blah blah blah blah. You plug it into the computer and it just doesn't really work. So, for you, you know, having worked on old cars and kind of seeing and you know, you could feel what was wrong with the car, hear what was wrong with the car, but kind of seeing where cars have gone now. I'm just wondering if you have a feel for that. >> Oh, well, you know, I'm an old car guy. I mean, if I could drive like a 64 Chevy Impala that was bone stock, I'd [clears throat] do it daily driver, man. Cuz, you know, I love the smell and I love the feeling and the noise and the imperfections and those rattles and just the just the fact that I can can pop the hood and get some duct tape or some some bailing wire and and figure it out, you know, and get it going for a while, which is just the greatest thing. and and uh so yeah, I'm I'm I'm an old car guy, you know, I have a newer car uh but I have a 2002 uh Toyota Tundra, which is like to me the sweet spot. They were modern enough where they worked great, but it's got hail damage. It looks like a golf ball. Uh people don't park close to me if they have nice cars. And I just love it because man, it's like no pressure. I just drive that thing and I'm dude, no pressure. I can park anywhere. I could drive it over anything. No worries. And it just keeps going. So anyway, um yeah, a big big fan of the old stuff. It's better all the way. >> Yeah. And I mean, again, [clears throat] there are some very nice amenities with the new cars, but it is funny. When I got my new truck, all the fancy new amenities, I basically turned off all the lane assist, self-driving stuff, and all that. I was like, uh-uh, ain't doing that. And the final straw for me was when somebody on the highway, they merged and got in front of me. All I would have had to do is just let my foot off of the accelerator and we would have had enough space. It would have been perfectly safe. My vehicle slams on the brakes, throws my wife forward, throws my kids forward. Everything that was in the back seat that wasn't a child is now on the floorboard. And I was like, "Nope, we're not doing this anymore." I just turned all that crap off. But hey, that's not what we're here to talk about today. We're here to talk about your newest book, which guys, if you were listening to this on time, it is now available. I got it right here. raising spiritually strong kids, how to apply biblical principles with love and logic to bring up children who live with authentic faith. So, I'm going to read a quote here and then we'll get into it. Let me be clear. Teaching our kids how to act appropriately is extremely important, but it does not ensure that they will love God. The world is filled with well- behaved people who have no interest in him. So, Charles, why this book? Why now? Why you? Well, my my publisher, okay, calls me and says, "Hey, you know, you've been doing these this this love and logic, okay, it's and that's been around for 40 years, uh, teaching parents how to raise strong kids, respectful kids. We want you to do something that's overtly biblical." And I have a Oh, wow. You know, I mean, that's an amazing compliment. So I jumped on that bandwagon and then I thought, okay, how do I make sure that people know that the gospel is the most important thing, not these psychological techniques that that I might teach or these strategies, but you know, hey, if we don't have the gospel, if we are not in Christ, if we do not truly know, believe uh and and and just abide in him, I'm talking about being desperate for him. If we're not desperate for him and we've said yes to his offer of [clears throat] salvation, then nothing's going to work for us because sooner or later there's going to be a harvest. Okay? And we're not going to be happy with the result. So, so the book I I I share practical strategies. I pra share some psychological things, but I keep coming back and saying, "Hey, how do we really do this?" And it's Jesus. I mean, we got to have him. Well, Charles, I'm I'm interested to hear you talk more about that because even recently in some of the circles that I run in, there are people that have kids that are adult kids or close to adult kids, and they've felt this pressure their entire life about, hey, if they're not spiritually strong or if they're not Christians, it's my fault. And I will tell you, I have a six-year-old and a four-year-old. They're both boys, incredibly toxic. I love them. But, uh, you know, I'm trying to do, as Matt Chandler says, put as much gospel kindling around those boys. >> Yeah. >> Right. And and whenever I outsource parts of what my time to other people, I want them to uphold the Christian values that we hold up in this house. That includes their school. That's includes the teams they're on, the houses they visit, family members, all those things, right? >> But I'm not in charge of the match that falls from heaven that, [clears throat] you know, lights up all that gospel kindling around them. There's a great a great quote from the book here that I think >> it's either going to stress people out or it's going to give them some uh some peace. I don't know. But it says once we accept that we don't have ultimate control over our kids' spiritual development, we can better steward the responsibility he God has given us as parents. So tell me more about that. >> Well, I I I want to go to Ephesians chapter 2:es 8-10. Okay. So So that's a little bit of homework for those of you guys who are like, "Okay, I want some word. I want some meat here." And so we go to that and I I'm just going to go from memory here, okay, on this verse. And so, uh, but it's important. It's it's central to the book. It's central to life. So, it it says, "For it is by grace, uh, through faith that you've been saved, and this not of yourself." So, let's let's let's think about that. It's not you. You didn't do anything to earn this. We didn't do anything to earn this. I didn't do anything to earn this. It is by grace through faith that you are saved. And this is not of yourselves. It is a gift of God. It is the gift of God. Well, the thing that's important for us to understand is, okay, when people say, you know, you need to preach the Bible to yourself, even as a Christian, you have to continue preaching the Bible to yourself. Because I feel like, Charles, there are Christians that get to this place where they're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. I agree with that. Grace through faith, you know, uh, I I couldn't save myself. You know, my good works are filthy rags before the Lord. I'm with you." So, I got my get out of hell free card, but now I got to keep earning it, right? So, if I don't do these things, and I'm not talking about the religions that are based on works. I'm talking about the parts of Christianity that understand that, you know, grace through faith that gives us our justification. Then we have our sanctification journey, which is the rest of our lives. And then eventually we get our glorification when we either pass pass on to the next life or Jesus comes down to snatch us up, what whatever the thing is. But it it does help us to to remember and understand. No, no. I have to constantly remind myself about the good news of the gospel. And one of the best parts of the gospel is that I couldn't earn it to begin with. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Absolutely. And you're so right. I mean, we just keep moving. We we drift in the wrong direction if we're not preaching to ourselves. if we're not sur surrounding ourselves with with other men, other people who are are are preaching the truth to us, reminding us, confronting us, you know, say, "Hey, dude, you're off base, right?" Uh, if we're not embedded in that soup, so to speak, uh, we're just going to drift into, "Okay, let me have the wheel, you know, let let me grab a hold of this. Thank you, Jesus. Appreciate a little help there, but I got it." And then that's when it all comes crashing down. I mean, as soon as we forget that uh that he's the vine, okay, and we're the branches. So, we get our nourishment, spiritual nourishment, power, everything else from him. As soon as we forget that, it goes downhill. So, uh yeah, I have to cling to it every single day because every single day I try to grab it away and do it myself. Every day, I mean, I will confess that every day I try that. And this book was great because it totally humbled me. I'm sitting there, I'm thinking, I don't have anything, Lord. You know, and and I I'm of the persuasion where I I just say it's all by grace. Every single thing, every single thing I do is a result of grace. Every positive thing and some of the negative stuff. I mean, one of the things I talk about is is how much good eventually comes out of our imperfection. You know, we blow it with our kid. It's like one time I I remember my kid, one of my kids, he goes in my garage, which is separate from the house. I have a microwave in there. He sticks in a bag of popcorn. It's like eight. I think he hit 30 minutes instead of like three. >> Three. >> And then he left. Okay. So, I get home from a business trip and I'm like, "What the heck is that smell? This is just awful. I open it up. It's like a chunk of coal. The thing's just the plate in there's busted. And then he lies to me about it. And I just go go haywire. I'm just like FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. HOW MANY TIMES, you know, let's be clear. You know, there there do need to be consequences. You know, a kid does something like that that they're not supposed to do, they lie about it. There need to be consequences. He had to do a lot of extra chores to pay for a new microwave, right? I mean, but my delivery stunk, you know? It's like, how could you do that? How come you do that? You know, and I'm yelling. I'm carrying on. And then I I leave the room and I think I just gave a talk uh to a bunch of parents about how [laughter] >> Yep. It's like what a hypocrite, right? So, I go to him and I'm like, I'm sorry. I mean, you're still going to have to pay for that, okay? But I, you know, I love you and I'm just don't that's not what I what I teach. teaches not what the Bible teaches and forgive me. And you know, he later on he he said to me, he said, "Dad, you know, that was I I was really surprised you you you you apologize." You know, he said to me, "I guess we all need Jesus." Like you say, like, "Yes." Hey guys, real quick. So, pretty much everywhere you look right now, all anyone in the fitness and wellness world wants to talk about is peptides. And in the last few years, the demand and the market for peptides has gone through the roof. And here's the thing, most people don't really know anything about peptides. They just know that a lot of people they know are on them and are having great results. 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Charles, I actually I I want to key in on that a little bit because even going back to the previous thing, my my buddy in ministry, Joby Martin, Pastor Joby Martin out in Jacksonville, he talks about don't ever get over the gospel. Like some people are like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Jesus died on a cross for our sins, paid for it. Yeah, it's all that's all great." It's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's where we should start all of our Bible study, all of our prayer. But I want to talk about apologizing and repenting to our children. So, I don't know where I picked this up because I grew up in a household where I never heard the words, "I'm sorry," from my mother or my father. Like, they may have thought they had done wrong or overreacted or whatever, but I never heard those words growing up. But with my boys, I will blow my top, right? As and you give a lot of anecdotes in the book of and you just gave one there about your own personal anecdote about how you responded and how stupid you felt and how you felt like a hypocrite and all those things. I think all of us fathers out there have been there. But my what used to be me is my off-ramp into crazy town used to I used to hang out there for a while. Like I'd be really really mad. I'd stay there and I'd stew in and then I'd eventually get back on the main highway. Now it's like a quick little detour and I'm like like I remember, you know, yelling at my my boys on the way back from jiu-jitsu one day. They're six and four whenever this happened. And my little one just starts crying because of my reaction, right? not because he felt so bad about what he had done. It was because of my reaction and I was justified. I pull over, I get out of the truck and I literally open the back door and I get in there and I apologize to to my boys and say, "You know what? Y'all did wrong, but dad should not have acted that way. God doesn't look at us the way that that I just modeled to you and that's wrong and I'm really sorry. Do you forgive me?" So, my boys are getting to practice saying, "I forgive you. Yes, Daddy, I understand you're sorry." Or, "Yes, daddy. You know, we'll do better next time. We'll think about it." But also, I'm I'm modeling repentance. Like, I'm, you know, as my buddy Joby says, be the lead the lead repter in your household. But Charles, you know this better than anybody because this is your entire world. A lot of men have never seen that before. They've never heard a man come up to them and say, "I have wronged you. I know better, but I didn't act better. I repent. Will you forgive me?" And so, for a lot of guys, they're kind of flying blind, you know? >> Yeah. And it's such a burden when you're when you're holding on to that and you can't do it. you feel like you can't do it. It just wells up >> and you know it comes out in other places. You it comes out in alcohol, you know, who knows what but it comes out in other places. And uh I think for me what what really turned the tide because I struggle with it myself. I feel like wow, if I do that then I'm I'm somehow modeling weakness, right? M [clears throat] >> but the truth of it is is it takes a great amount of strength to apologize and ask for forgiveness. And I wonder if the prodical son I just had this thought I wonder if you know God put on his heart you know he repentance we don't cause somebody else to be repentant. God put on the prodal's heart to to go back turn around you know repent change his way and go back. But but I have to think too that that that God must have g given him the strength to do that >> because that's a pretty tough thing to do. So dads, you know, that that's a strong thing. You don't gravel in it. You don't say, "Oh, I'm terrible father. I'm horrible." You know, and you don't dwell on that. You say, "Hey, this specific thing I did wrong. I apologize. That's not right. Please forgive me." And then you move on. >> Well, Charles, it doesn't always have to be in a dramatic situation either. Me and my boys were just playing with Legos the other day. It was just the three of us hanging out and I felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit of all the other times I've showed them anger and where I wasn't patient with them and I just say, "Hey boys, drop the Legos real quick. Eyes up here." And again, they're six and four, so good luck with that. But like, you know, and I'm talking to them and I'm just like, "Hey guys, I know that dad sometimes, you know, gets frustrated. It It's scary to y'all. Y'all don't know why dad's frustrated all the time." Or maybe you do know dad's frustrated, but man, that's something. you know, that's something that dad's working on. And believe it or not, dad's a lot better than he used to be. And I'm just like, but boys, just know that I'm going to keep working on that because I want you to know that I love you. And it's not based on your behavior. It's not based on your performance, like any of those things. It's just I love you. I love you boys and I don't want you to be afraid to come and talk to dad. But like, I'm going to go out on a limb here since I know my audience pretty well and I've been talking to him for the last nine going on 10 years. A lot of dudes in my audience struggle with anger. A lot of dudes in my audience struggle with impatience, with pride, with all the things that's kind of circling around the drain of what you and I are even discussing right now. And you do talk about it. You do address it some in the book as well. But to that parent, you know, or one of the mothers out there, one of our 5enters that's, you know, listening to this where they just struggle with anger towards their child. I want you to give them some things they can lean on because as we both know, anger can turn to resentment and that's a lot harder to come back from when it pertains to the parent child relationship. >> Yeah. So, I can I can speak from experience because the these are all things that that I struggle with. I have I have three boys. Wild times. Never had enough band-aids, by the way. Uh [laughter] but yeah, it so uh number one, number one, I'm I I have to say, you know, honestly, it's it's good to have some just some practical strategies or some scripts, some things that you can say, okay, when you're just really mad, right? Uh it doesn't mean that you're trying to do it without the Lord is just everybody needs some tools is good you know right so uh one of the most important things I learned was that that the there's this myth that I have to come up with an immediate consequence or I have to handle everything immediately otherwise my kids won't learn and that's that's hogwash right some of the greatest lessons kids learn even when they're fairly young are ones where we've said to the kid I am so mad right now I thinks it straight. I got to take some time to pray about this. I I'm just I'm really fired up, right? And I I I love you too much to say something right now. So, we're going to talk about this later. Uh we And then, of course, they say, "What are you going to do?" And say, "I don't know, [laughter] okay? But I'm going to go pray right now." And and you know, that's that's a sign of strength. That's great modeling because our kids are going to be in those positions and they're going to need to have that script to fall back on. Hey, I need to pray about that. I got to take some time. That's a huge relief. I've worked with so many men. I've worked with men who've been court ordered for counseling and parenting courses. I remember one dad, the kid's 15 and the kids like, "Hey, go ahead. Hit me, Dad. Hit me. Go ahead. I know you want to hit me." And they're having this and and dad wants to hit it. I mean, there there's the flesh is fired up and he's done it before. That's that's why he's talking to me. And he just looks at the kid and he says, "Uh, I love you too much to argue with you about this right now. I got to take some time to pray. We'll talk later. And he said, I just I just got out of dodge. I mean, I got out of dodge. >> And and he said, you know, all the years that I took it up to a higher level, the kids saw me as weak, but this was the first time when he really saw me as strong. And, you know, he didn't admit it, but I could tell it it blew him away. Uh, but here we have this guy and he just I mean, I remember him coming to me and and he's he's a good guy, man. he's but he's hurting and he feels like a total failure. And we just prayed and talked about this one little script and it it started to change the trajectory of his life. And then he started realizing that, you know, if I'm going to continue this route, you know, in a positive way, I really got to I got to be in Christ. I mean, I got to be dwelling in him, which means every day. Again, I love what you said about the gospel. One of the things that irritates me so much is I I I know people who've been going to church for 30 years. They don't know the gospel. >> I mean, I've met people like that. It's crazy. >> I I listen to sermons. Every sermon should be a gospel message. Every single one should be a gospel message. And this book is a gospel book. It I keep going back to it. Right. >> Right. Uh, and so yeah, I'm powerless, but I know the one who has the power and I live in it. >> Well, Charles, it because if this was just a a parenting tips and tricks book, it would have value, but the value would have a ceiling to it, right? Absolutely. >> So, if you're going to a church that's giving you tips and tricks on how to live a better life, how to advance in your career, how to save money, how to have a better marriage, it's not nothing. But in terms of eternality, it is nothing, right? Because you can be a terrible husband, a terrible employee, all those different things, and have the saving faith of the gospel in your heart and in your soul. And so, I don't care if you go to a, you know, people make fun of them, the frozen chosen kind of church where everyone just sits there stiff as a board, or if you're at the super mega charismatic, people are falling out in the aisle and they got tambourines everywhere just in case you forgot yours. It doesn't matter. If there's no gospel there, then you should not be there. And dad, if you're listening to this, I'm talking to you directly. Your wife does not get to choose where y'all go to church because it makes her the most comfortable. Your children do not get to choose where y'all go to church because they're more attracted to one kid's program versus the other. You are the head of the household. You get to make that call. But if we can kind of come back to the little kids thing because thank uh there are a lot of guys in this audience that have little kids, right? One thing that you hit a lot in this book is we have to get comfortable letting our little kids make little mistakes that have small consequences. And then this will kind of I guess you know uh get us into our description of different parenting types or I guess we can just combine these and so letting kids make little mistakes that kind of thing. But you talk about different styles in the book. You talk about the helicopter parent, the drill sergeant parent, the permissive parent and then you have the consultant parent. And so I think one of the through points of all those different styles is how do you address problems? How do you address mistakes that kids make? Because mistakes and sins are not the same thing, but if you lump them into the same category, your kids are going to have a really hard time understanding depravity, right? Versus behavioral modification. So let's just talk a little bit about that. >> Yeah. So, so the bottom line here is uh I I I teach people, hey, hope and pray every day that your kids make plenty of affordable mistakes. Hope and pray every day they blow it over issues where the consequences are affordable. And that doesn't mean the consequences are comfortable, right? So, [laughter] right, but you say to yourself, okay, is their life, limb, or spirit in danger if my kid makes this mistake? If not, you could look at them and say, for example, you're in the store and the kid has some money they've saved and they want to buy this toy and you know it's junk. It's going to break right away. Okay? You know, and you're looking at it and you're it's real tempting to steal the learning by saying, "Nope, you're not going to have that." Or steal the learning by buying them a new one when it breaks. >> Yeah. But but here's, you know, that the helicopter they rescue the drill sergeant bark orders. a permissive, they're more concerned with their own comfort, so they're kind of tuned out, right? So, the consultant parent, right? It's just a label. But basically, the consultant looks at the kid and says, "Oh, man. Uh, I'm not sure I'd buy that. That doesn't look very well made." Then I'd be pretty upset when it broke. But, uh, you decide it's your money. And that's when you go to prayer. Please Lord, allow this thing to break. [laughter] And when it does, okay, when it does, you don't rub salt in the wound. You don't say, "See, I told you." No, you're like, "Dude, that that's that's got to hurt, man. I know you love that." Well, can I buy will you buy me another one? Uh, no. But you could always earn another one, right? And uh so it's that combination of allowing those those small affordable mistakes that teach so well and also when the kid has to experience the consequences, you let the consequence be the bad guy. You don't have to be the bad guy. You could you could be real sweet about it. You know, I I knew a dad his his favorite line was he'd always start everything when the kid had a consequence. He'd always started with, "Dang." And it was just just real sweet, empathetic, dang. You know, he'd say, "Oh dang. >> That hurts. That's going to leave a mark, [laughter] you know, but then he'd allow the kid to live in the consequence." And so then, you know, he's not the bad guy. He doesn't have to feel bad about it. >> Yeah. I love that. like let the consequence be the bad guy. I think that's helpful because I think you know in talking about kind of the helicopter style parent or even the snowplow parent. >> Yeah. >> They have parents that seem to worship at the altar of their kids' happiness. >> And yet if I were to ask that parent, hey, can you tell me the difference between happiness and joy? They would look at me like, I'm I'm sorry, what? [clears throat] Uh and there's a quote from the book I want to read. If we are parenting our children to be spiritually strong, happiness cannot be our main priority. After all, teaching our children to dwell on what is true will not always make them happy. In fact, the more faithful they are to God, the more opposition they will face from others who are doing wrong. They will also experience discomfort when they stray from what they know is right. And again, why do parents [clears throat] do things and give things to their kids and give them privileges that they know are diliterious to that child or even their relationship or they just kind of ignore it? Part of it laziness as a parent, all that. You know, parents by in and of themselves are not heroes. Like I don't look at people as these giant homogeneous groups. There are great parents, terrible parents, and a bunch of people in between. >> But talk to us about really just the dangers of being very very concerned about the happiness of her children. >> Well, then what you end up doing is running the Ecclesiastes experiment in your home. >> Okay. Now, let let me elaborate on that. Okay. [laughter] So, we have King Solomon. He's the richest guy ever. He has the ability to shower himself with everything. He pursues happiness. He pursues pleasure. He pursues uh a sense of status through his work and his accomplishments. But but what does he end up finding out? It's all meaningless. It's all hopeless. It's a chasing after the wind. And see what we're really talking about here is is we're we're creating kids who actually worship comfort and kindness. I'm sorry. Com kindness. I messed up there. We're we're creating kids who worship comfort and possessions. Comfort and happiness. Okay? And because we've trained them to do that by the way we're treating them. And what's so fascinating is when I work with kids who are raised by parents who are devoted to keep them happy, they will often say things like, "I don't care about anything. Nothing makes me happy. The only thing that's left that's more exciting are drugs or or maybe doing something crazy online." Well, I think that's important for parents to remember is what categories they're giving their children. You actually alluded to this a little bit earlier. I remember one of my best friends growing up, uh, his parents bought him a new pair of Adidas shoes. They were these, you know, white shell top Adidas with, you know, silver silver Adidas stripes on the side. And it was as if that kid's mission in life was to destroy those shoes. That above all other missions in his life, he was going to make them as dirty and as tattered as possible. And man, if I'm lying, I'm dying. After about 2 or 3 months, these shoes were unrecognizable from the shoes he pulled out of the brand new box. Because like for me, like I got shoes that are over 10 years old. People are like, "Are those new?" I'm like, "No, I I just take care of my stuff." And I was just so disappointed because at this point in my life, like no one bought me shoes except for me. I had to work hard if I wanted a new pair of shoes to go buy him. And what did his parents turn around and do? They brought they bought him a brand new pair of the exact same shoes after he had destroyed the other ones. Learned no lesson whatsoever. This girl uh that [clears throat] uh was a friend of mine when she was 16, she got a brand new red Mitsubishi Eclipse convertible. She got in three wrecks before she turned 17. She got in three wrecks. And then the fourth wreck, she totaled the vehicle. What did her dad turn around and do? Bought her another one. Bought her a brand new the new year red Mitsubishi Eclipse convertible. And I remember being real frustrated, Charles. And I I kind of described all this to my dad. My dad's got, you know, kind of like, you know, more, you know, all shucksy, you know, country wisdom, that kind of thing. He goes, "Son, one of these days when you buy yourself your first brand new vehicle, it's going to be so special to you, you won't even know what to do with that excitement. That girl's got nothing to look forward to because she's always had a brand new car. And when the brand new car wasn't brand new anymore, dad swooped in and saved her and bought it because he could afford it and he wanted to do on his daughter." And I'm like, "Golly, you are just absolutely destroying your kids for later. It's not like they they can't be good people or be gospel centered or all that, but it's like their expectations about what what life is supposed to look like for them becomes really really problematic. It it it's so damaging. And as as we're talking and as you're talking I and and thinking about a basic truth, okay, I'm going to throw it out here and and and it really is undergirds a lot of what we're talking about and that is the the the fact that choices matter. I mean, are we parenting in a way where our kids realize that their choices matter? >> Or are we parenting in a way where kids think, "Yeah, I make choices, but somebody will always bail me out of this problem that I created for myself and other people." There's just absolute there's been an epidemic for the last 40, 50 years. It's been going on for a long time of parents who hover over their kids and when the kid gets into trouble, a little rope ladder comes out of their the parents rear end and and the parents just whisk that kid away from the harsh land of cause and effect. And uh we cannot do that if we're going to have spiritually strong kids or or quite frankly a a a viable country. >> Well, actually I was going to go there. This is not just a individual parent, individual household thing. This is a culturewide thing that we've done where we teach these kids that, oh, you took out a loan for a lesbian dance theory degree that's worthless, and you're only qualified to be a barista at your local coffee shop. Don't worry, eat the rich. We'll get them to pay for it. Or, hey, you know what? Uh, you made a bunch of bad decisions in your life that put you in the position that you're in right now, >> but don't worry, we're going to bail you out. we're gonna we're gonna take care of this. Actually, you know, prisons are somehow operations of white supremacy. Like, this is these are the things we hear, the nostrums we hear from culture, which basically absolve people of all all responsibility. And this is going to make some people mad, but we get into this modern era where it's as if, you know, we have this this Cornell rape case that that's come up and it's all all in the news right now as we're recording this. Obviously, we're coming off the hill the heels of the Lindsy Clancy stuff to where it's like women that make decisions of what to do with their bodies, what they do to other people's bodies is somehow not their responsibility because insert, you know, clinical language here that absolves this person of taking responsibility. So, as a parent, as a modern Christian parent, it's even harder to fight back against this culture that's saying, "Yeah, sure. whatever you want to do. Uh it's all going to be permissive because don't worry, someone else will pay the bill some somewhere down the line. >> I I don't know about you, though. It it it it motivates me though. [laughter] >> It motivates me, you know. I'm like, >> you know, I'm going to raise kids who are countercultural. Now, when I was a kid, the counterculture, you drove a Volkswagen bus, you had long hair, you just kind of tuned out and did drugs, right? Now, counterculture is I'm responsible for my own actions. Okay? I'm going to live a life of honor. I'm going to take the high road, you know, I'm going to I'm going to contribute to society just because that's what God wants me to do. He He wants me to bless other people. I'm not loving other people when I'm just laying around sucking off of the system when I could do better. Okay? And so for me, it it it it fires me up. I'm like, the world, you know, the world needs more strong will. See, if you have strong willed kids, just rejoice because the world needs them, okay? The world needs really strong willed Christian kids, okay? That are that that know how to love. So, they're kind people, right? But they're strong willed. They're stubborn. No, no, no. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And nobody comes to the father except through him. And I'm not budging on that. Okay? These are the kind of kids we need. And uh now we know that that this world is not forever, but we're we're called again going back to Ephesians 2 8-10. He says we're God's workmanship. We're saved by grace through faith, but we're God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to walk in good works that he prepared for us before the foundations of time. I mean, before time began, he prepared good things for us to do. And so we ought to be teaching our kids to do those good things. You know, we can help out in that regard. >> Yeah. And I think one thing that's helpful as well is I'm very competitive. My my kids are very competitive. When I see this might seem mean, but I I think guys will understand. When I see kids making bad decisions that are around my kids' age, right? Or when I see, you know, different things being taught to these kids and all that, I'm like, "Oh man, they're just clearing the playing field uh for my kid, right?" Because like, you know, we love to lament, you know, all these these kids that are overweight, covered in Cheeto dust, playing video games in their mom's basement. It's like, bro, if you're single, if you're a single dude right now, you should be a killer. You should have two or three jobs. You should be tinkering with starting your own business. You should be working out once a day, doing jiu-jitsu or boxing uh once a day. You should be reading insane books that are challenging everything in your brain because you will never have more personal time to develop yourself than right now. Cuz the moment you get a girlfriend, a fiance, a wife, kids, most of that's going to go out the window. You're going to have to look for those pockets of time where you can develop. Cuz I'm like, look, most girls are just looking for a guy that has bathed this week, a guy that has fixed his hair, a guy that picked them up in a vehicle that looks like it's been washed this century. And so it's like it's man, like it's not going to take much for you to stand out. >> Yeah. You know, and honestly, we pray for those other kids. We we we we, you know, we we do pray. We have a heart of compassion for those kids that are so lost because somebody is not doing their job and guiding that kid. Okay, that's the sad thing. But really truly uh you know we we we have a great opportunity to to make a a real positive impact on the world. You know, I remember uh when I was a young parent, my first son, he was all mad at me about something and I went to my dad and I was whining. Oh, dad, my son doesn't love me. he doesn't respect me. And you [clears throat] know my dad said now my dad is known he Jim Fay love and logic you know he's he's he's a compassionate guy he says it really doesn't matter Charles >> it doesn't matter if he likes you [laughter] like what you said yeah I I know you want that we all want that but the big most important thing is are you raising a good citizen an honorable man that's the real thing you know are you are you raising a kid who loves who loves God okay and and that really hit me it's like I was spending spending way too much time uh worried about whether he loved and respected me instead of asking myself how can I in a loving but strong way guide him to be a really strong man uh it freed me up and what's ironic is when we do that when when we are loving and strong that's a big part of the book loving and strong okay like God he's loving he's strong okay so dads were loving and strong. We're firm, you know, when we say yes, it means yes. When we say no, it means no. Uh but we can do it in a kind way in in a in a without raising our voice or being nasty about the whole thing. But when we do that, guess what? It upsets our kids in the short term and they are far more likely to love and respect us in the long term. >> Hey guys, real quick, I just wanted to remind you that we have an official Undaunted Life store. You can go to shop.uned.life life or check it out in the show notes, guys. We're always going to have hats and shirts and a bunch of other awesome stuff. Go there, support us, wear the mission. Again, it's shop.undaunted.life. Check out the link in the show notes. Shop.undaunted.life. I think that's absolutely right. And really, all this kind of circles around discipline. You talk about discipline a lot in the book. You you don't really mention punishment very often, but I do want to read uh one section here because you sent me down a rabbit hole of research that I now appreciate looking backwards. But let me read this quote. Okay. >> Before we talk further about discipline, I want to briefly address the subject of corporal punishment. Some Christians have heard that if they spare the rod, they will spoil the child. See Proverbs 13:24. Based on my study of the entirety of scripture, I do not believe that the rod represents a physical object used to spank, hit, or whip. When we seek to punish merely with the intent of achieving power by imposing physical pain, our children are unlikely to take full responsibility for their actions. Instead, they will likely grow to resent us and blame us for their problems. All right. So, I was like, "Wait a minute." Like, it's like the record screeched, >> you know? I'm I'm writing that and I'm thinking, "Okay, here we go." >> Okay. Go ahead. >> Well, here we go. So, you asked earlier, you need guys in your life to say, "Hey, I think you're off base." I think you might be a little off base on this one. Cuz again, Proverbs 13:24, "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves is diligent to discipline him." So, as I was looking and I even I went to the Logos software. I even took a guy who's like a log logos wizard and I was like, "Hey, you know what do these words mean? What does all this do?" Because there's Proverbs 13:24, but then there's Proverbs 23:13 and 14. Do not withhold discipline from a child. If you strike him with a rod, a physical object, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from shiel. And then the one that really, you know, hit it for me was Proverbs 29:15. The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame on his mother. And so when you start looking at different words, the Hebrew word muzzer is typically translated for discipline. So that's instruction, right? So it derives from another verb which means to discipline, admonish, instruct and cha and chasen. So this doesn't mean that physical punishment is what Christians should universally and primarily do when it comes to disciplining their child in every circumstance. But non-abusive, that's very important, but non-abusive physical punishment is a biblically defended action for a parent towards a child. And so, I mean, there's a lot of things in the Bible that aren't super clear, but that one's pretty clear. And I don't know if that's kind of what what you went through, but I just went back to that original language, and it's like, well, no, it's talking about multiple kinds of discipline, and it's giving the the Christian parent license to give the appropriate discipline in that moment to the child. again, non non-abusive physical touch. And it's not, oh, I stepped on a Lego that I told you to pick up. Okay, I'm going to whail on you with a whip. Those kinds of things. And so, I'm just curious for you because I, as soon as I read that, I'm like, any guy in my audience that reads that is going to be like, you got to ask him about that. So, here I am. I'm asking. >> Well, thank you. You did a great job with that. I've struggled with that. >> Yeah. >> And one of the first things, one of the points I make in that section is I am not the ultimate authority on parenting. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And when people come to me and they ask me questions like this, you got to you got to go to the Holy Spirit. You got to study it yourself. Did a great job of studying that. I have struggled with that concept tremendously. I've seen many many parents who have used corporal discipline and coral corporal punishment and they've raised really great kids. Okay, I've seen that. And I've also been in the land of working with multiple families where there was abuse going on and people used uh those scriptures. They they misused them. Okay, let's be clear because it's my my true my true belief that everything in scripture is true. >> Everything in the word is true. But I have seen some people misuse those scriptures as an excuse for being incredibly abusive. And so I would have to say where I come down on a very practical perspective is that I like to keep it to a minimum. That that's that's my per and I will say that's it's not it's not it's not in the book of Isaiah. the book in of Isaiah. Okay. It's my opinion. So my opinion is we we keep the corporal punishment to a minimum. I've known a lot of people who haven't used it who I believe are really strong Christians who have raised really great kids. So that that's where I land on it. And I I will be admittedly uh that that's the one point. Okay, this is probably the one point, Kyle. I'll be quite frank with you, transparent where I struggle in the book >> over the things that I teach. And I can see your point. I can see the great study you've done on that. Uh so again, the safest place that I'm going to land on this is every man, every woman is accountable to God. They go to the Holy Spirit. They pray over this. And when whatever we do, we got to do it with love and strength. >> Well, one thing I would add to your advice because we spank in our household and we do spank sparingly. And so it's like, okay, well, why do you do it sparingly? Is it because it's bad? It's like, no, because we have structures in place that keep our kids from getting to a point where a spanking is warranted. And also, we have standards. I'm not big on goals. I don't care about goals. I care about a standard. Hey, and I I welcome my kids into an identity. Hey, Thompson's act this way. Thompson men do this, this, this, and this. Did you do what a Thompson man does just now? And and I've gone through those scenarios. But the biggest lesson that I've had to learn in that process, both my wife and I came from a spanking background, and we're thankful for it because it, you know, it taught us things at an appropriate age where that was that worked. It's the best advice I can give to somebody that has come to the biblical realization. Yes, spanking is okay. You just can't do it when you're angry. you flat out can't do it when you're angry because you want to talk about uh you know we're all going to give an account to God someday for our lives well the Holy Spirit will nudge me at different points that said too hard too hard Kyle too hard because spanking is spanking it's going to suck but even like the anticipation of a spanking is what sucks for a kid not always as much the physical pain reaction that their body has to the stimuli but like for me it's like I if they're going to get a spanking I will let them know you're going to get a spanking I'm going to leave the room. I'll come back in a minute. Right? So, when I leave the room, I calm myself down. I'm good to go. Heart rate's at my resting heart rate. When I come back in, before I deliver the spanking, Charles, I will say, hey, you're getting a spanking. Why are you getting a spanking? Because I want them to not [clears throat] be like, well, I don't know. And if if it's I don't know, it's like we're about to double the spanking. You know why you're getting this? And it I want them to answer in a way that comes back to, hey, this is the standard. This is something that we agreed to on this house. this is something I told you I was going to be going to do. I'm a man. I'm supposed to be a man of my word and I didn't live up to that. And then I deliver the spanking. There are tears and then we go right back to our our regular regularly scheduled program. And so that would be my advice to guys is if it's always your first response, I would probably quibble with and argue with that. If you use it sparingly, fine. Listen to the prompting of the Holy Spirit because there are certainly opportunities where the rod is not only allowed but necessary. So fair on all that. Would you co-ign? >> Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate you bringing that up because I love I I love digging into difficult topics and and that that can be a difficult topic. I would say to th you guys out there, if you know you can't do it, >> yeah, then don't do it. I'm one of those guys, quite frankly. That's probably one of the reasons I come down on it differently than Kyle is I know that I can't I know that about myself. So, I got to look at different tools because I could take it too far. >> Yeah. And for some of you guys, it's because I [clears throat] know guys, Charles, they don't drink cuz their dad was a horrific alcoholic. >> Right. >> Now, for them, would it be a sin to have a scotch with dinner? Absolutely not. But they've seen what that could do. It's in their genetic lineage somehow, so they don't go anywhere near it. And so it's like look, if you come from an incredibly abusive, physically abusive household and spanking frankly scares you to death, I think you should reckon with that. But uh [clears throat] if if you're still able to parent the way the the children in a godly manner, I would say, yeah, absolutely go with that. But it is one of the acceptable forms of discipline. Now, before we get out of here, I because we got to wind to a close at some point. Any chance I get to talk about Charles Spurgeon on this podcast, I try to do it because the prince of preachers, it's good for him to get mentioned. >> Awesome, isn't he? Yeah. But I wasn't expecting to see some Charles Spurgeon here in this book. But you talk about, you know, kind of how Charles Spurgeon would show people about spiritual strength. And you talked about three different things. And the last two are not really things that we even talk about in uh in our modern culture. May not even know what they mean. So the first one is knowledge. The second one is ascent. That's a s n t not like ascent, but ascent. And then we have I don't even know how to say the last one. Aience. Aance. I don't know. I Yeah, okay. So, yeah. Well, I I I put that in there to give us some idea of the process of of spiritual growth, right? And obviously, I mean, nobody can really understand the gospel if they haven't been taught it. Somebody's got to teach them. Got to they've got to have the knowledge. Now, even the demons know about Christ, right? And so that doesn't mean our kids are saved. It doesn't mean they're even moving in the right direction. They know about it. Right? Atheists are some of the well most well-educated people about scripture. Okay? Right? And so knowledge is is necessary but it's not sufficient as they say in science. Uh second there is a scent and that's the belief. Yeah. I believe it's true. Okay. I believe it's true. Okay. That's a nice place to be. Right. It's part of the process. But again, even the demons believe, right? But ascent, ascent and then onto a fiance. Aiance, the the term comes, it's an oldfashioned term. It it it's related to the term that we know, fiance. >> Uh we're we're we're betrothed to somebody. We are we are soon to be wed or we are wed with somebody and in fact we're one. Okay. And and that is the mark of the true believer where they abide in Christ. Now that the I bring up that quite a bit in the idea that how how do how do we move from mere belief to aiance? Well, God uses a a lot of different ways to move us there, but one of the ways is is a very uncomfortable way that a lot of parents uh bulk at and and that is allowing their kids to experience struggling, allowing their kids to experience suffering. I I don't know about you. I know about me and I know about so many other people that I've studied and that is that what really brought us in a true fashion to absolute dependent on dependence on Christ. So what was it? His grace. We know that. >> Yeah, it's grace. I mean it's God using the Holy Spirit in our lives. >> And his grace also uses suffering, doesn't it? >> Sure. Of course, it's a center point of the gospel. >> Absolutely. And and uh yeah, Spurgeon taught a lot about suffering because he suffered tremendously. This is a guy had horrible depression. There were times we had a hard time getting out of bed. He understood suffering. And I I think you're exactly right. Even the other night, um you know, our six-year-old's learning to read and he's got these little booklets he's got to read and then he's got to go test, you know, in class where he has to read them to the teacher and all that. And I could sense my wife, you know, cuz she loves her boy. She doesn't want her boy to struggle on a word. She was wanting to get in there and like kind of kind of help him with all those words. And I was just like, "Hey, let him let him struggle through the word. Like he knows this word. He just forgot how to pronounce it. Like just let him struggle a little bit." Watching my boys do jiu-jitsu and they have no idea. They just think it's fun in class and they get to play games and, you know, wrestle around and do all that. It's like the the struggle that they're going to experience doing jiu-jitsu and wrestling is so substantial because they're you can't survive in that sport if you don't figure out how to overcome. [clears throat] If you don't figure out a way to okay, I just got smashed but I'm going to stand up, slap, bump, or shake my partner's hand. And either that's that or we're about to go again. And I mean that's just practice for life. That's why I love burpees so much. They're simple but they suck. And it's just you get down, you get up, you get down, you get up. And that [clears throat] is the story of life. Uh now, Charles, before I let you get out of here, I would be remiss if I didn't, you know, turn the conversation towards technology. You spend some time in the book talking about technology. There are parents that are stressed out of their minds right now about what that is. Maybe they got they've got kids that are kind of like before the age when a kid normally gets a device and they're stressed. Okay, who's going to be the first kid in his friend group that's going to get an iPhone? And then what am I going to do? Or I know this school will only let their high school kids into the locker room if they have a smartphone that has an app that boops them in through the door. Hey, all my kids friends have Snapchat, right? They're all on Roblox. They're all on these apps that pedophiles all over the planet are using to get access to our children. What do we do? And then, you know, Charles, we have this tremendous focus on what we're giving our child access to via the phone. You know, murder videos, porn, you know, whatever kind of thing. But then we completely ignore whom we're giving access to our children by giving them one of these by giving them a smart television in their room where they can shut their door and use it. By giving them an Xbox or a PlayStation or a PC gaming uh a setup where they can be on the internet without any restrictions whatsoever. I mean, I've railed on this a lot on my show and and you spend a lot of time in the book talking about different groups uh different age groups and how parents should focus on it. All the while, Charles, these are parents that are addicted to their smartphones trying to figure out how can I keep my kid from picking up my phone every 15 seconds because I want to get that little shot of dopamine. So, you got about, you know, maybe five minutes or so. Just solve it for everybody. Ready? Go ahead. Go ahead. [laughter] >> I wish I was able to do that. I I'll just throw out some some some key points. Okay. First of all, a cell phone uh is not an entitlement. You're not entitled to a cell phone. I'm not entitled to a cell phone. I'm not entitled to anything [laughter] in this life. Right? And and that's one of the the main points that we want to get across globally with our kids over a number of issues is that we are not entitled to a single thing. Lord it everything is a gift from God. And so in in my opinion, kids should not have a cell phone until at least later middle school age. Okay? Teenagers, no cell phones. Now, it doesn't mean that they can't use one from time to time or borrow one under supervision, but if we're really going to raise healthy kids, we're going to have to be tremendously countercultural over this issue. And so no cell phones until the kid is at least 14, 15 years of age. Okay? Uh if they do have them, they've earned them at that time. We've made the decision. We've prayed over and we've thought, "Okay, now this kid is really ready for this at this age." Uh now, if you've already given your kid, you know, a lot of people say, "Charles, I already, you know, the cat's out of the bag, right? They I gave the kid a cell phone at seven and now my life is their our life is an absolute disaster. I see that over and over over again. You know, I had a sick cat. I did. I said the cat's out of the bag. I had a sick cat. You know what I had to do? I had to stick them in a bag to save their life. And it wasn't a bag, but it was a crate. I had to I had to grab a hold of that critter that was trying to scratch me to death, hissing, clawing, going crazy, getting under the couch, trying to pull them out from the I had to stick this cat into this crate in order to get them to the vet so the vet could treat this abscess that was going to kill this cat. Now, do you love your kids enough to make them so mad they're going to hiss and spit and and and scream at you to save their lives? I mean, how big a deal is this? So, yeah, you can take it away. You can do it. And it's not going to be comfortable. And that's going to be great. It's going to be good for everybody, including you, cuz you're going to get through this and say, "The Lord got me through this tough time, and he's going to get my kid through this tough time." So, uh, another point I'll make is, uh, kids should not be in front of screens at all with some very rare exceptions, uh, for the first six years of life. first six years of life, I call it the screen-free years. And now, let's say dad or mom's deployed and they have a chance to like zoom in and now we're going to make an exception there, right? >> Sure. >> There's some exceptions we make, but you know, I miss the go Kyle, don't you miss going to the store and seeing little kids acting up in the store >> or at a restaurant where the families are actually talking to one another? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I miss kids acting. The other day I was in Walmart and these two kids were tustling with each other and they're acting out. Dad just looked at him and he said, "Stop it." And they're like, "Okay." You know, you could tell he was doing something right. But I'm like, "Good for you, Dad." Because first of all, they didn't have devices, so they actually had an opportunity to act out. That's the point I'm making here. How do we learn? By acting out. Honestly, I'm still learning by acting out from time to time. Let me tell you that. So, let me make another point here. Uh, you know, the electronic safeguards, all those things are are are just great. They're fine, but don't be lulled into thinking that they're going to work all the time. >> That's right. >> You know, the bottom line is relationship, okay? It it's the the timeless truths in scripture are are our best defense with this modern issue. And some people think, oh no, it's got to be some really complicated. No, it's about having great relationships with your kids. It is about loving them enough to set limits. It is about loving them enough to be aware of what they're doing. And in my book, I talk a lot about the idea, the truth, that we ought to have complete access to any devices they might be using. >> That's right. That's a non-negotiable. >> It's a non-negotiable. Like I I say, you're you're more than welcome to use this as long as I know I can get into it. And I will be I'll be doing spot checks. Well, you don't trust me. You know what I said to my kids? I don't trust myself. I mean, as soon as we start trusting the human heart, we're in trouble. Well, and Charles, I I whenever I was researching this for another book that I was reading, I looked at there was a the Uver Bible app, the most downloaded Bible app, one of the most downloaded apps of all time. There were pedophiles that were using the messaging inside of Uver >> to get in front of children. This is a Bible app. Now, as far as I know, they've closed that loop, but they they had bypassed all the different systems. And so, again, you I've talked to parents that are like, "Well, there's nothing I can do. The kid bought the phone with their own money. I was like, "And they hook it up to the Wi-Fi at whose house? Who pays for the Wi-Fi? Who pays for the router?" >> I suppose So I suppose, Kyle, if they buy if they buy fentanyl or or heroin and they pay, they they should keep it. They paid seriously. I mean, that that's that's dumb. Okay. Honestly, it's like, no, I I'm taking it and I'm calling the police, by the way, and we're going to work this out. Um, so yeah, it it is is is setting those limits. It's holding them accountable and it's it's done with love, you know. It's like that's one thing the Bible's clear on. You know, it many things is clear on, but one thing love, nothing's going to work. If we're not doing with love without if we're not doing with love, we're just going to fail. So, yeah, we're going to be pretty strict over this issue uh by the world's standards. Uh I've I've seen parents who've done this um and we've done this in our home and and our kids have not liked it. Uh but the consequences of just allowing this just kind of sticking our head in the sand and not dealing with this are just too high. >> Well, yeah. And I mean there's a a verse about, you know, discipline not being fun at the moment, but it's going to lead to overall life and betterment for you. And I think anyone that can look back on their childhood and think through that situation that was the most dominant horrible situation ever. I can't believe my parents are being this authoritarian or blah blah blah and all that, they look back and they're like, "Thank God. Thank God." Like when I look back on my childhood, like look, I didn't I wasn't having sex. I wasn't drinking. I wasn't smoking pot. I wasn't smoking cigarettes. I wasn't doing all that. None of that can save you, by the way. But I just wasn't doing any of those behaviors. And if someone were to ask me, "Hey, why are you not partaking in any of those behaviors that you're even curious about doing?" I was like, cuz I'm terrified of my parents. I'm terrified of them. And they weren't physically abusive at all. But when I got punished, they meant it. When I got privileges taken away, they meant it. They followed through. They didn't give one care whatsoever about how I felt about the punishment. The punishment was delivered, and I had to live by it. I was never led out of my grounding period early. I was never given something that was taking taken away from me back early. They stood by their punishment. And I'm like, if I were to do any of these things or get caught in like any of those types of things, this this would not have been like, ah, well, we're going to take away your Xbox for a week or something like that. No, it would have been much worse. I got grounded if I got B's because my parents knew I was capable of A's, right? And so, it wasn't because, oh, we're just going to be these strict authoritarian parents and you're going to be perfect. It's like, no, son, we know what you're capable of. We know you know the difference between right and wrong. We know that you can get A's in these classes. So, we have an expectation for you that you're going to act right and you're going to do well at school. And if you're going to play sports, you're going to give full effort cuz it's the only thing you can control is your attitude and your effort. And if you have a bad one of those, then you ain't playing anymore. Like, so it's just like I don't know where they got that. I don't know if it was just accidental, but those are center points, cornerstones of my morality as I've uh grown into adulthood and now as a father myself to be able to pass those same lessons and attitudes down to my two boys. Uh but Charles, we've weaved in out of a bunch of different subjects here. I've really enjoyed our conversation, but that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? Well, I would say dads, okay, being strong, that's really important. Uh, being warm, being loving is very important. And see, God does both of those at the same time. >> They're they're not separate constructs. They're they're they're the same thing. Moving forward, always for the force of of good and his grace. And so if every day you can ask yourself, how could how could I be very loving about this and and communicate to my kids that they're the apple of my eye, but at the same time be very very strong over these issues and not budge, they that's that's the kind of leader that people love, respect, and want to follow. >> It's exactly the truth. If we're not being tough and tender, then we're missing the point. Charles, thanks again for coming on the show. >> Thank you so much. You have a great day. God bless you. >> There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Charles Fay. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Undaunted life mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. So, I've got a link to where you can buy your copy of Raising Spiritually Strong Kids. And also a link to the Love and Logic Institute so you can check out everything that Charles and his team are doing. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music]