0:00
[MUSIC]
0:20
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:23
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
0:25
All right guys, we've got a special guest on the podcast today's name is Chandler
0:29
Rogers. So he is the co-founder and CEO of Relay. So this is an app that helps people
0:34
basically find healing in their addiction. So it could be unwanted sexual behavior,
0:39
you know, chemical addictions, you know, just behavioral issues. And they do this through
0:44
group support and accountability. So for him individually, and we dig into this in the actual
0:49
episode, but he had many years where he just kind of felt stuck in kind of this cycle of
0:54
unwanted sexual behavior. And so he kind of became passionate about trying to connect people to a
0:59
support system. And he had kind of a tech app background and that led to the creation of the
1:04
relay app. And so in this particular interview, we do discuss kind of how we got into this
1:09
entrepreneurial venture, you know, why make an app as opposed to just writing a book or a
1:13
devotional or doing something, you know, a little easier. And then also why focus on the group
1:18
connection piece through the app? Because it's very unique, because there's a lot of great
1:22
services out there for like, you know, screen recording or screen accountability or blocking
1:27
certain websites. And again, those those have their place. But at the end of the day,
1:31
you have people that are having trouble getting into a recovery cycle, because they keep getting
1:35
into these cycles of bad behavior. And also because they just don't have anybody fighting
1:39
with them. They don't have a group to fight with. They're just fighting alone. And so we talk a
1:43
lot about that. We talk about how his, you know, spirituality and or I say spirituality, how his
1:49
Christian faith really plays into all this, you know, we talk about the actual app that they created
1:54
itself, like how the app works, the different recovery zones and different things like that.
1:58
And so it was really interesting to hear a different person kind of a tech guy's perspective on how
2:03
we're going to go at fighting addiction. But there is one thing that was very interesting that,
2:07
you know, because I'm recording this intro after the interview. So whenever I went through the app,
2:11
just to try it out, you know, before the interview, so I could be familiar with it.
2:15
One of the questions whenever you're setting up your account is, you know, are you male,
2:19
female or non binary? And as soon as I saw that question, I just like my eyes rolled in the back
2:25
of my head, I was like, Oh my gosh, it's another one of these. And it's like, I thought these guys
2:30
were like a Christian group of guys. And you know, why are they even asking that question? So in the
2:34
interview that you're about to hear, I asked him about that directly and I tried to be fair about
2:38
it. But then, you know, really open up a discussion about, Hey, what is truth? And you know, if we're
2:43
right from the beginning showing people like, Hey, we're, we're kind of letting the leaving the door
2:47
open for untruthful, ungodly things. What does the rest of the experience in the app going to look
2:53
like? And so I'm happy to report to you that based on this interview and the question that I asked
2:59
them, they're going to get rid of that on on the app whenever you're setting up your account. So by
3:03
the time you guys try this, I know by the time you guys hear this interview, a lot of you guys are
3:07
going to try the app out for yourself. You're not going to see that come up. It's just going to be
3:11
male or female. So I wanted to kind of basically put that out there. And just to kind of do them a
3:16
solid, like we know when we're working on a very, very important, you know, tough project, like
3:21
creating an app that's absolutely crazy and running a new startup company, there are things that you
3:25
do at the very beginning that you just kind of make a snap decision and then you move on, right? You
3:30
don't think about it all day, every day you need somebody that's kind of outside of your world,
3:34
like me in this case to point out like, Hey, that's really weird. Why did you allow that?
3:38
Because at the time they're like, Hey, we just want we don't want to be needlessly offensive and we're
3:42
trying to be as inclusive as possible. So yeah, just putting on by an area on there. And then they
3:46
moved on with creating the rest of the app. And so it shows some humility from these guys. It certainly
3:51
shows that they're dedicated to, you know, the Christians and the conservatives that would use
3:56
their app to not do something that's so needlessly divisive when a tiny, tiny, tiny proportion of the
4:02
planet would be so offended by that binary option at the beginning to where they wouldn't use the
4:08
app. So I did just want to throw that out there to you guys. But hey, I'm not going to keep it from
4:12
you any longer. So without further ado, let's get into it. Chandler Rogers, welcome to a daunted
4:17
life of man's podcast. Hey, thanks so much, Kyle. Happy to be here. I'm happy to have you here.
4:22
And I think you're the first person ever on this podcast to have a world map behind you. So are
4:26
you a traveler or do you just like to look fancy? I'm currently traveling and I'm using the office
4:33
that's currently in my father's house. We're here just staying with my folks for the weekend.
4:38
And he for some reason put up this big map, he moved like 18 times before he was out of the house
4:44
when he was younger, but it was all in Arizona. So maybe it was just the desire to get out of the
4:49
same state. Okay, okay, I can certainly see that. So okay, so you do a little bit of traveling.
4:54
We're going to get into an app specifically that you created here in just a second. But I want to
4:58
back up just a little bit because the world of tech, entrepreneurism, or even just entrepreneurism
5:04
in general, a lot of people don't really know much about it, or they think they know much,
5:07
they know about it. But I used to do some consulting for tech, the tech sector and some different
5:12
companies like that. And it's kind of the wild west in some ways. And there's just so many things
5:17
to know. And I mean, every week, you know, something on your back end gets updated,
5:22
which could literally bring your entire company crashing to the ground. So I guess give me an
5:26
idea, what even got you interested in entrepreneurism in general, and then specifically tech app,
5:32
that type of entrepreneurism. Yeah, yeah, I grew up being really interested in technology.
5:38
And I remember like my senior junior of high school, you know, I was like, coding seems really
5:46
interesting. But my dad was always kind of a business guy. And I kind of got this vibe or this,
5:51
I don't know, stereotype from him that, you know, if you're an engineer, you know, you're maybe
5:56
nerdy. And that's like what you do for your career. If you know how to code, you know,
5:59
that's that's good for you. But like then there's business over here and the two are totally distinct.
6:04
I think I kind of had that impression early on, but I was always drawn to technology. By the time
6:09
I got into college, I got connected with a couple guys who had kind of started their careers working
6:15
for startups. And I was like, what is a startup? What does that mean? And so I talked to them,
6:20
I kind of heard a similar story of like, you know, we were growing up interested in technology,
6:24
learned to code for a little bit, but realized like, we could use that to go build a new product
6:30
or a new business to go help serve, you know, a group of people that we didn't feel like we're
6:34
being served very well today. And kind of that marriage of business and technology really excited
6:40
me. And I actually got to work for a startup with one of those guys that I had talked to,
6:44
because I was like, Hey, do you know, like where I could like start getting my heat in the water?
6:48
And he's like, actually, I'm just starting a new company. If you want to come intern with me for
6:52
the summer, that was my first job. It was a startup in the moving industry. They were trying to provide
6:58
a more like instant booking experience where you don't have to have people come into your house
7:02
and do a survey of all your stuff. It would use like your phone camera to just document all your
7:08
inventory and provide a better experience. And so I joined their company and stayed with them for
7:13
a couple years during college. And that kind of got me my first dose of entrepreneurship, where
7:18
I was working on a brand new product that we launched while I was there. And we grew it quite
7:23
a lot during those two years. But I realized throughout that experience, like I really loved
7:28
working on technology products and building new things. But moving in the moving industry wasn't
7:34
the most exciting to me, even though I moved a little bit growing up. And that's ultimately
7:39
where I started asking the question, well, what do I want to be spending my time working on?
7:44
Okay, so we'll get there. But I want to take a slight left turn, but we will only detour for a
7:48
second. So your experience that you just described in my experience that I had with the tech sector,
7:53
these were with companies that were selling a service. So as software as a service or SaaS,
7:59
and like that, that makes sense. It's like, I want this service. This is how much it costs.
8:04
I choose to use it. Boom. I pay this much. But there are some app and technology companies that
8:10
are free. And they've convinced millions of people around the globe that there is such a thing as
8:15
a free lunch, which most people should understand that there's not. Do you know much about companies
8:20
that make money off of freebies, like free apps? Now, I know there's in purchase apps,
8:26
so you download the free game. But if you want like the super cool blue sword, then you have to,
8:30
you know, pay a $0.99 or something like that. But I've even heard about prominent, you know,
8:35
Bible apps and things like that to where it's like, yeah, the reason why they can build these
8:39
enormous buildings is because they're selling your data and they're mining it and all that kind of
8:44
stuff. So anyway, save me from going off into the world that I'm not familiar with. So you tell
8:48
me what you think. Oh, I was just going to say the only business model in which anything is
8:54
generally ever free in the world of software and tech is if they're using data for ads. And,
9:00
you know, sometimes it's much less malicious than that sounds, right? Like, I think Google has a
9:05
really easy way to essentially just say like, you know, if I have enough users, like just display
9:10
ads to them and like pay me money for it, you know, and so that's a lot of option for people that
9:17
are like, yeah, I don't want to charge money for the product. But then as a user, I'm just getting
9:21
spanned with ads throughout the entire thing. And I personally hate that. And yeah, it's it's
9:28
totally something that a lot of companies do is using your data. And that's probably why if you
9:32
search for like a new mattress on your laptop and then you open some random app that has ads,
9:37
you're going to see mattress ads in that app because they're passing these cookies,
9:42
essentially your data trail around. And yeah, that's how a lot of free apps get by.
9:47
Hey guys, real quick, the financial status of most American families is not great.
9:52
Doesn't that make you sad? It should make you sad. And this is going to blow your mind.
9:55
According to a recent Gallup poll, 88% of non retired Americans are very worried about having
10:01
enough money to retire. And in that same poll, only 19% of non retired Americans even think that
10:06
they will have enough money to retire comfortably. That's 19%. Not very much. So the thing is though,
10:13
the reality is much worse than that. So I've seen estimates that claim that roughly 95%
10:18
of non retired Americans are currently not on track to be able to retire 95%. And that is only
10:24
concerning savings and investments that doesn't even account for people that are exposed to serious
10:29
financial problems if they were to get too sick or too hurt to work. And God forbid, if they pass
10:34
away without having a plan to keep their family financially whole, it's just, it's a crazy mess.
10:38
And that's why I want to introduce you to my friend and my financial advisor, Mike McCall with
10:43
Bluecrest Financial. Mike can help you reach your chosen financial goals by helping you develop an
10:48
overall plan to ensure you and your family's financial success. So whether it's IRAs, stocks,
10:54
rollovers, life insurance, long term care, disability income, you name it, Mike can help you with it.
10:59
Now, just imagine the peace of mind that comes with knowing that you're taking proactive steps
11:03
towards financial security for you and your loved ones. Think about the legacy you could
11:08
leave behind. And it's really going to be something that truly reflects your conservative values and
11:13
the hard work you put in throughout your life. I trust Mike McCall with my financial planning.
11:17
So I think you should give him a shot as well. So to receive your free personal and or business
11:22
financial assessment, go to the link in the show notes in this episode to book a 15 minute zoom call
11:28
with Mike. Do not try to piecemeal your own financial plan. Let an expert help you again.
11:33
Go to the link in the bio. Just click that link in the bio to get your free assessment.
11:37
Well, the thing is, is like, I'm totally okay with it. Just tell me upfront, because I will
11:42
literally do this. I will literally pick up my phone and be like, I just lost my sunglasses.
11:47
Please show me ads for non polarized sunglasses that don't suck. Because I know it's listening
11:51
to me at all times. It's like, okay, I'm going to make you work for me. Because I literally lost
11:55
my sunglasses a week ago. And it's like crap, you know, for the first time in almost a decade,
11:59
I'm in the market for sunglasses. And so it's like, I want you to make the process easier. Yeah,
12:04
it's like, give me the best ones. Give me the ones that aren't going to go crazy. Because
12:07
I don't lose my sunglasses. Again, I have like one pair for a whole decade. So it's like, yeah,
12:11
let's like, let's, let's hook this up. So I'm okay with it. So, um, so you, you were doing the
12:16
moving thing, that app and all that. And yeah, it's kind of hard to get excited about moving,
12:20
even though I'm sure there are people out there that just love moving to an extreme degree. But,
12:24
this kind of relates to the relay recovery app that we're going to discuss. But I guess you decided
12:31
that you wanted to tackle the addiction world and we'll get more into into why, why that and all.
12:37
Well, I guess let's do that now. Why the addiction world? Because you could have done an app about
12:41
some other hobby that you had or something else that was interesting to you, but you chose addiction.
12:46
Why? Yeah, yeah, it was around kind of that same timeframe of, you know, trying to figure out what
12:52
do I want to do with my life with my career, you know, leaving the house. I think it started near
12:57
the end of high school where I'd been exposed to pornography, like beginning of high school years.
13:05
And I grew up in a really, you know, strong Christian family. And we actually talked about
13:10
growing up, like the dangers of pornography and kind of the harm that can cause in a relationship.
13:15
And, you know, and trying to follow God, how that's, you know, often harmful spiritually. And so I
13:21
kind of was aware of like, this is something that I, you know, don't want to get into. But I think,
13:26
you know, Instagram and social media were becoming kind of big at the time. And I feel like honestly,
13:31
I just kind of got caught in the web without really trying to look for it. And kind of looking
13:36
back at my younger self, feel a little bit sad that it was kind of that scenario. And the more
13:41
guys I've talked to, I think a lot of people never really want to get trapped in cycles of like,
13:46
you know, unwanted sexual behavior. It just kind of, you know, becomes a thing one day. And by the
13:52
time I realized kind of what was going on, I already felt trapped. Like my first attempts to kind of
13:59
leave it behind just, you know, white knuckling, just sheer willpower, weren't really effective.
14:05
And I continue to find myself turning back to it. And I remember just feeling like so much shame.
14:10
Like, I had this desire to go and, you know, be someone in the world. Again, this was at the
14:16
time where I was like, you know, what do I want to do in my career? And I'm excited to leave the
14:19
house. I was the oldest of five kids. And, you know, being young and having a lot of goals and
14:25
desires and excelling in school and sports, like, I felt like I could achieve what I wanted to. And
14:32
all of a sudden, I feel like I'm failing over and over at this one thing that no one knew about.
14:38
And that created so much shame within me and just feeling like, man, I'm a terrible person. And
14:43
like, I'm not at all like the man I'm trying to be. And I just let myself kind of believe this
14:48
narrative that I think was really like harmful for me. I, you know, I just didn't really give
14:54
myself any sort of, I think, respect because of that. And I think it really ate at myself
15:01
confidence made me feel worse. And I thought, you know, someday, like, if this is still a problem,
15:06
like, no, no girl is going to want to marry me, like, you know, all these thoughts. And so,
15:11
I think it did propel me to say like, I want to do something about it. And so I found like a
15:17
local group based program for other Christian guys, like young adult age. And I started getting
15:24
connected there. And through that experience, I, you know, just to summarize kind of my journey,
15:30
essentially learned how important it is to not fight this alone. And I love what you guys do
15:35
here on the podcast and fighting away darkness and pushing away darkness in all areas of life.
15:40
I think learning that that is really hard to do when you're pushing solo and having other guys
15:48
who are in the same boat and realizing that they are they're good guys. And they've got
15:52
good goals and good desires too. And they're not terrible people, like banding together with them
15:58
and figuring out how do we help each other push back this darkness and find the healing that we're
16:04
looking for? That was everything to me. And that ultimately led to later, you know, the early ideas
16:08
for relay. Okay, I really appreciate getting into that because that's kind of a personal story.
16:12
But the thing about your story, Chandler is that's the story I've heard before. That's
16:16
story I've heard before a lot. Because if you talk really to any guy, whether they grew up in a
16:20
Christian home or not, they kind of fall into that. And I mean, the statistics are absolutely
16:25
damning. I mean, it's something around, you know, seven or eight out of 10 men use pornography,
16:29
one out of every three women use pornography. And the numbers are the exact same inside the
16:33
church. And so that the interesting thing for you is, okay, so a lot of people have that same
16:39
compunction and same draw to not want that lifestyle. But they're looking to the marketplace for things
16:45
that can potentially help them. Now, I am very much so a white knuckle guy, because at the end of
16:50
the day, it's kind of like, if you want to get better at doing pullups, you know, what you need
16:53
to do, you don't need to read a lot of blogs about pullups, you don't need to read about, you know,
16:57
how, how your bicep connects to the shoulder and all that, you need to get on the bar,
17:01
hang there, and then try your try to pull yourself above it. And that's why I tell people all times,
17:05
like, you want to know the best way to stop looking at porn, stop looking at porn. But again,
17:08
I'm kind of a crazy person. And I do have some some very disciplined wiring and things that I've
17:13
done, most people are not really wired for that. So you decide that you're going to build an app
17:19
to help people and kind of check some of the boxes, like what you kind of talked about where,
17:24
hey, you're not in this fight alone, you can be a part of that. So why do an app? Why not just
17:29
write a book or write a devotional or, you know, partner with some other organization that's already
17:34
doing it? Yeah, yeah, it was interesting. I mean, I looked around and saw a lot of organizations and
17:39
and books, you know, and seeing a lot of people having, you know, their philosophies on how to
17:45
successfully, you know, find healing in this area or just like how to quit porn or how to do
17:52
recovery. And everyone had, you know, their manual, their playbook and their coaching business
17:58
around it. And you know, my background through college was not a PhD in psychology or as a trained
18:05
therapist. And so I wasn't, you know, interested really in going a more traditional route and
18:10
writing a book with my unique philosophy or I didn't feel like I had a unique philosophy,
18:15
to be honest, like, you know, kind of like what you said, I think I realized like there's a lot of
18:19
information out there about this stuff. At the end of the day, I realized like there are fundamental
18:24
skills and systems that really help break compulsive behavior cycles. And the thought kept coming to
18:31
my mind like technology felt to me like it was at the root of the problem. And I, for a while, kind
18:36
of hated technology or I wanted to like, you know, have nothing to do with technology because it felt
18:42
like the problem that I realized that even though it was like, in part, the vehicle of where the
18:48
problem was happening, technology doesn't have to be the bad guy. And like, what if it were part
18:54
of the solution? What if it were the good guy to help make it easier to develop that self mastery?
19:00
And so that was kind of where we thought, you know, it's not a program, it's not, you know, our
19:06
unique take on recovery. It's like, what if there was just a tool in my pocket on this device that
19:12
we all have these days and, you know, the modern era that made it easier to stay accountable, to
19:19
implement those systems, to manage kind of the various things that I might be tracking as a part
19:24
of that process. And it just looked around and saw like nothing that I felt like was really that
19:30
useful in that area and said, you know, I have background building apps, like, let's go, let's go
19:36
after this and let's go take a stab. And so we did and early on, like, the product was pretty bare
19:41
bones, but our approach has always been like, let's, let's get guys using this if they want to and
19:47
get their feedback on what would make it easier for them to develop that self mastery to hang on
19:52
that pull up bar and to do the hard work. Like, people sometimes look at relay and they're like,
19:56
Oh, so it's kind of like this like mushy support group, like, we're just gonna be here and like,
20:00
tell each other that our lives are hard, right? And like, I think a lot of people are surprised
20:05
that that's not actually the case. And that's not what helps you in a group environment to do
20:10
recovery. It's really a lot of personal work that's hard work. And we want to create the group
20:17
environment that makes it easier to stay consistent, easier to stay accountable while you do that work
20:22
that's necessary. Studies and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time college
20:29
students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal, everything you need to study
20:36
and play with select windows 11 PCs, eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 premium
20:41
and a year of Xbox game pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller.
20:46
Learn more at windows.com/studentoffer. While supplies last ends June 30th turns at aka.ms/college PC.
20:53
So you said a bunch of things there that I love because that's kind of my thing as well. Like,
20:58
when I was first, you know, made aware of this in my head, I have to evaluate things so quickly.
21:05
So whether it's a pitch for a book, you know, an author to come on the show or a video that I'm
21:10
watching that I'm potentially using as educational material, it's like I can't waste a lot of time
21:14
on stuff that's kind of too fluffy or that's kind of, you know, vapid. The thing that was
21:19
interesting to this is it was like a technology way of connecting you with other people that can
21:25
actually assist you in what you're doing because, you know, we basically talked about porn up to
21:30
this point. But in terms of what I understand about the app, you help guys that are, you know, have
21:35
unwanted sexual behavior, acting out sexually with porn, but also eating disorders, smoking,
21:40
gambling, substance abuse, there were some other categories I can't remember off top of my head.
21:44
And also, there are other things out there that are good that I've talked about on the show before
21:49
that are accountability softwares or, you know, screen recordings and different things like that.
21:55
But whenever you set up an account, because I was able to kind of set up an account because I
21:59
wanted to check it out for myself, there are several different questions that are on the questionnaire.
22:03
But question eight of the first 11 questions or so, is his spirituality, religion, or God
22:09
important to you in working through this challenge? So obviously, this is a Christian men's podcast
22:15
for dominantly. Most of the people listening to you right now are Christians and conservatives
22:18
and things like that. And so I was happy to see a question like that on there. But how does
22:24
the answer to that question affect the in app experience, if that makes sense?
22:29
Yeah. Yeah. Early on, you know, we felt like it would be important to find ways to match people
22:36
with others who would be a good, you know, team. And team was kind of this word early on that we
22:41
kind of honed in on not not group because team to us implied this idea of we're actually working
22:46
together towards something towards a common goal, like in a sports setting where we're all like
22:52
playing the same game. And there's a role that we need to play. And we want to put you on a team
22:56
of people that are, you know, seeing the world and seeing this journey in a similar way to you.
23:02
And all of us who founded relay, we all grew up Christian and are, you know, still active and
23:07
our faith is really important to us. But we realized, you know, there might be people who
23:12
don't share that value as strongly. And we actually want to just help people like get to the appropriate
23:18
group of people that are similar to them. So when you say like, yes, spirituality, religion,
23:24
God, you know, whatever is important to me, we're matching you in a group of guys who are also
23:28
faith based. And we're actually working on some changes to even further customize it from there.
23:34
And, you know, maybe by denomination, if that's important to you or in the experience itself,
23:39
there isn't a lot of customization where we, the app are, because like we don't have like our own
23:46
curriculum that we're teaching in the app. So there's nothing kind of in there that we're adjusting
23:52
to be more or less Christian. But you know that you've got an environment where we can talk openly
23:57
about how our faith plays a role in this process, because I know that we're in a group of other
24:03
guys who kind of think the same way. Okay, so there is one thing that I, I'm not happy about
24:10
asking this, but it's in the app. So I got to ask you about a Chandler. So I didn't like this
24:14
whenever I saw it. But when I was setting up my profile, one of the questions was, are you male,
24:21
female or non binary? And so to hear, you know, from a Christian group of guys that create this app,
24:29
and then they put a category, you know, of self identification that aligns with nothing that we
24:34
see in scripture, certainly nothing that we see in biology or even nature, that struck me as very
24:40
odd. And to me, I know a lot of guys, even in my audience, they're going to maybe go through
24:44
that setup process and just see that question and be like, Oh, God, here they are again. Like,
24:49
they already got Paw Patrol, they have all the universities. And now they got this app that I
24:53
was planning on using. So give me the background of that, because my obvious suggestion to you
24:58
would be like, get rid of that. It's nonsense. It doesn't make any sense. Was there any thought
25:02
or questioning behind that? Is it just within the technology we're already using? Give me the
25:06
skinny on that? Yeah, no, I appreciate you asking that question. I think it's a totally valid
25:10
question. To be honest, when we first started the app, we didn't sign up and realize like,
25:17
Oh, we're going to have to figure out how to take the stance that we align with best on these
25:24
different issues. And on the one hand, it's like, man, being someone that's just trying to do good
25:30
in the world, having to even get questions like this or to think through this, I feel like on
25:36
the one hand, the natural man of me is like, that's like annoying. I wish I didn't have to think
25:40
about that, because it doesn't matter. Like one way or the other. But on the other hand,
25:44
I think it is important. Like, it's an important question. And I think really early on, we had
25:50
some people, like I said, we had a lot of non-religious, non, you know, people have totally different
25:55
backgrounds signing up for the app. And, you know, just had male and female on there and had,
26:01
you know, like a lot of platforms get backlash for like, you know, why aren't you being more
26:05
inclusive here? You know, for people that feel like those definitions should be expanded.
26:11
And we said, you know, is this a hill that we want to die on and fight right now? And really,
26:16
I think it was more just like, we don't have a lot of time being so weak. We were doing so many
26:22
things at that time that it was almost like not super intentional, literally just a month ago,
26:26
because this has now been a few years, we're like, you know, this is something that we don't really
26:32
think makes sense for us to keep in the product. And actually, by the time people probably listen
26:36
to this, they actually probably will see it not in there anymore. So it's a timely question
26:42
that you ask, because it was more of like, you know, this kind of ended up in there because those
26:45
people reached out early on, and we just like, didn't want to be perceived for better or worse.
26:50
Like, I think it was kind of like, you know, was that a strong thing for us to do? Like, maybe not,
26:55
you know, like, to just be like, we don't want to get backlash. So we're just going to like,
26:59
you know, do what makes like the most amount of people not mad at us versus like, you know,
27:05
what would we actually want to do? So I don't know if that's a good answer, trying to just be
27:08
wrong, honest, like it not not a full reflection, either way of like, you know, me trying to be,
27:14
you know, my best, but just realizing like, you know, we do make mistakes whether, you know,
27:18
in any area of like running this company, we can address it, we can iterate on that and
27:23
ultimately do what what makes sense.
27:26
Well, I'm sure you would agree with the statement that small things can be indicative of larger
27:31
things and can can communicate larger things. And so my encouragement would be for y'all to kind
27:36
of have a come to Jesus on that, because again, if that's the first thing that people see whenever
27:41
they get into the app, it betrays a worldview, because even a lot of Christians, they've bought
27:46
into this nonsense of like pronoun hospitality, like, okay, I know the person in front of me is
27:51
a biological male, but they're they've got to dress on and make up and they're asking me to
27:54
call them Shirley. Okay, fine. I'll call you Shirley, whatever your name is, but I'm not going
27:58
to refer to you by feminine pronouns, because now you're making me a liar. And so I think
28:03
people are always worried about being offensive. And that's not really something I worry about much.
28:08
And they're worried about not being seen as inclusive. Whereas the reality is, is the people that are
28:12
going to be so offended that you asked a question that didn't have their little extra pet category
28:19
in there, that those are people you probably don't want using the app anyway. And that's going to be
28:23
such a small percentage of everyone trying to, you know, trying to find recovery, because the
28:29
thing is, is you know this to be true, because we're about to dig into the app, you know, big time.
28:32
If you're not leaning on truth within the app, like if you're not leaning on truth in your road
28:38
to recovery and sobriety, like you're fooling yourself, like imagine if you convince yourself,
28:44
like you just got through looking at porn, but then you convince yourself, no, I didn't,
28:48
I'm self identifying as somebody that definitely did not just look at porn. It's like, okay,
28:53
like that that that is it doesn't work. So does that kind of make sense? Like from a commercial
28:56
perspective on the customer side, why that would be concerning? For sure. Yeah. And I think it's a
29:01
good lesson of like how that that importance of seeking truth is relevant in any context. And I
29:08
think, you know, being, you know, young entrepreneurs and like learning that lesson of we need to
29:14
apply this quest for truth just as much in our commercial endeavors as we do in our individual
29:20
lives and how to do that. Like, I think, I think that's a great point that you're making and
29:24
it's been a, it's been a cool experience for us. And I think that that's a wonderful
29:28
note of encouragement for all of us. And in our jobs, in our home lives, in our community,
29:34
like we should always be helping advocate for truth. And I love that perspective.
29:39
Very good. Well, we won't belabor the point any further than that. Let's actually dig into the app.
29:43
So it's always interesting to be able to talk to someone who actually created the thing when you're
29:47
doing the thing. So somebody goes into their app store or whatever people call it on the Android
29:51
and they download the app, they set up their profile. How does the app work? Like, what is the
29:57
optimal way to use it? Yeah. So, so we match you with that group and everything, I guess,
30:05
in the experience is about that group of, you know, six, seven or eight other guys. It's pretty
30:10
tight knit where we're trying to help you guys do recovery together, like we were talking about
30:16
earlier. So you'll first set up a personalized plan for what you want to be accountable to.
30:21
And we're kind of using a framework that's based on some research that's been done in the
30:26
addiction recovery space where you're not just tracking, Hey, I don't want to look at porn,
30:30
but we're also helping you identify what are the boundary behaviors or the behaviors that
30:35
might lead me down that path, whether it's staying up too late at night or scrolling social media or
30:40
going someplace in town, I probably shouldn't swing by like, kind of customizing those boundary
30:46
behaviors and being accountable to that layer. And then further out, we have kind of this layer
30:50
of self care, which is kind of rooted in the idea that oftentimes we are turning to these
30:57
behaviors to cope with other things in our life where we're neglecting our relationship with God
31:02
or a relationship with our family or our significant other or our physical health. And so setting goals
31:10
to be a more healthy person in those areas, you know, for me, it's like my kind of morning time
31:16
with God and my physical exercise that I often ditch when I'm busy. Like those are things that
31:21
when I do them, I'm in a much healthier place to manage the stressors that I experienced to not
31:27
turn and cope with unwanted sexual, you know, behaviors. And so we help you customize and
31:34
personalize that plan. And then you're in this group where you can kind of like the default is
31:39
have that vulnerability and visibility to see what everyone is working on. And we're pairing
31:44
you with people who are also trying to overcome pornography and acting out in sexual behaviors.
31:50
But, you know, everyone's plan might be slightly customized to them. And so the cool part is like
31:55
each day I'm doing my check in to report back on how things are doing. And you can actually tap
32:00
in and see just an update of how everyone else is doing when they check in. And we've had a lot of
32:05
people say that one of the most powerful things is just knowing that someone else is going to see
32:09
that check in and care about it. And this is different than like if you use covenant eyes or
32:13
maybe like a screen accountability software that blocks, you know, inappropriate sites.
32:19
The accountability that's happening there is purely on your internet activity,
32:23
whereas in relay, we're actually helping you focus on like specific goals that you're focused on.
32:29
And I think a higher level accountability to your game plan that that's where the accountability
32:36
is happening in your team. So that that's kind of an overview of like how the system works. And
32:41
then we have a tool to like help you identify when you are feeling triggered. Like, you know,
32:45
I recognize though I'm tired. I'm feeling anxious. It's been a long day at work. It'll help suggest
32:51
to you to throw a red flag. And that red flag is kind of just like a quick little SOS button
32:55
that lets the other guys know that you're not doing well or you're in a more vulnerable place.
33:00
And we've seen a lot of people find that that red flag is like the biggest thing that's helping them
33:05
prevent relapsing and helping them actually reach out when they need it the most. Because
33:10
how often do we pick up the phone, you know, in a moment of temptation to someone that we can trust,
33:16
we don't do it. And so we're trying to give that one click, easy access for people in your group
33:21
to actually be there and you can help be there for them, which is also I think a huge part about
33:26
it is turning outwards. And it's not just people are going to come and help you and hear in this
33:31
app. It's actually you've got other guys too who like are, you know, working on their stuff and
33:35
you can help be there for them. You don't have to have, you know, figured out how to be perfect
33:39
before you can support others. And I think that's a huge principle of how we better ourselves.
33:44
The new LinkedIn hiring pro can't undo your last hire. The lone wolf. Who you thought was a good
33:50
collaborator because you didn't have the right candidate insights. But once you hire them, it was
33:54
all hoarding info, declining meetings and howling at the full moon. But LinkedIn hiring pro can
34:01
go deeper than just the resume to find you a perfect fit by using insights from the LinkedIn
34:06
network to give you a short list of best fit candidates. Hire right the first time with LinkedIn
34:10
hiring pro post a free job today at LinkedIn.com slash quality. Okay, Chandler, you brought up a
34:16
lot of stuff there that I want to dig into. But there's one thing I wanted to talk about specifically
34:20
first. So in the group that you're put in, is there anyone in the group that is actually healthy?
34:26
And the reason why I ask that so healthy in whatever way that you define that in terms of
34:30
that particular addiction and its relationship to sobriety. Okay. So I remember years ago,
34:36
this is probably 14 years ago now, 13, 14 years ago, when I was struggling with porn and masturbation
34:42
and all that. And that was basically, you know, when I kicked the habit, I went to this group.
34:47
And I remember walking in, and there's, you know, a bunch of guys at this table, a bunch of guys
34:51
at that table, a bunch of guys, and they're like, Hey, just pick a table and sit down,
34:54
which by the way, guys, if you're looking to build a men's ministry or something like that,
34:57
that's not the way to do it. You know, just sit down at a group of guys that you've never done
35:01
anything with that you haven't accomplished anything with that you don't know who they are.
35:04
You're not going to trust those people. You're not going to reveal yourself. So sidebar over
35:08
coming back to the point. I sit down at this table. And these are guys that came every week,
35:13
every Tuesday night to this recovery group, right? And they went around the little circle,
35:19
and this guy was like, well, you know, I made it two days without looking at pornography. And
35:22
then I looked at it and blah, blah, blah. And then the entire group was like, Hey, man,
35:26
that's great. Let's try to make it three days next week. And then there was this other guy that's
35:30
like he was sexual deviant, like he would just meet random strangers and the parking lot of the
35:35
pharmacy that he worked at. And he would just bang it out with these randos every single day.
35:40
And this is a guy married with kids. And he's like, Hey, man, I made it, you know,
35:44
through one shift at work without, you know, meeting up with somebody. And I'm sitting there like,
35:48
what in the hell is happening right here? Like all these people are basically saying, Hey,
35:54
this is okay behavior. Great job. He made it eight hours without sticking it in somebody that you
35:58
didn't know five minutes ago. And I was like, this is terrible. Nobody in the group was healthy. And
36:04
also there were no standards for these men. And I was like, I was so flummoxed by the whole thing.
36:10
So that kind of is the reason why that that idea came to mind. So in these groups, like, are there
36:16
standards? Are there healthy men there? They're like, look, this is so far in my rear view. I don't
36:21
even think about it anymore. This is your fight right now in front of your face. Here's how I can
36:25
help to kind of give me the idea of that. Yeah. Yeah. One thing that we're actively kind of
36:30
experimenting with is called the anchor program. And that's for guys as they're becoming healthier
36:34
and developing a lot of sobriety and, you know, putting this past them helping them join a new
36:40
group to kind of ensure that we've got someone always in the group that kind of, you know,
36:46
is in that place. And so that we've seen as we've been starting to do that, that's just some newer
36:50
thing in the last few months. Like that's been really helpful. I think a lot of guys love coming in
36:54
and seeing having, you know, someone that's been both in relay and in their own kind of recovery
36:59
journey a little further down the road and around the block for a bit. But yeah, I think like from
37:06
a relay perspective, these aren't like being run by therapists because we wanted to keep the cost
37:11
model a lot more affordable. And so one of the things we're trying to do is help the person
37:16
recognize like this person that you just pointed out, if you need like a higher degree of help,
37:22
like relay probably isn't the place for you. If you are struggling that severely, you probably
37:27
need to be working one on one with a clinically trained professional. And you know, that's just
37:32
my subjective opinion. But like who really is trying to serve is for maybe guys who are a little
37:38
bit more in the middle of not, you know, on that severe of the deep end, but you know, still struggling,
37:45
but like we want to help route people who are in an extremely unhealthy place out of the groups
37:52
because that's not going to help everyone else in the groups who are maybe a little bit more here
37:56
on this other side of things. So that's constantly I guess a formula that we're experimenting with
38:02
to try to figure out how do we better identify, you know, when someone is like clearly like
38:06
struggling deeper than the extent that makes sense for relay to help them and we should like refer
38:11
them out. That's just another one of those things that we're, you know, constantly experimenting
38:16
and figuring out how do we how do we do better at. But I think for the vast majority of people
38:20
that come into relay, like that that personalized recovery zone is where we help set those standards.
38:26
I think a lot of people have found that like knowing that the standards are also around
38:30
your boundaries and around your self care really keeps the bar higher where we're trying to say,
38:35
hey, like it's not really good enough if you're just like not looking at porn for a couple of days,
38:39
like we need to be developing healthier patterns of behaviors and of your mindset that will really
38:46
keep you far away from the edge. And I think that's that's something that will continue to emphasize
38:51
as we make improvements to the program. Okay, so you mentioned recovery zones there and you've
38:56
mentioned that a few times. So I actually wanted to read these because there are three parts as you
39:00
guys define it in terms of your recovery zones, or I guess you could call them three circles.
39:05
So if you think of them like, what is that concentric circles? Is that, you know, the ripple
39:08
sectors? Okay, I can't remember the the free geology, but they're like, yes, that's right. There you go.
39:14
So inner circle that defines your sobriety, the main compulsive behavior that you want to abstain
39:19
from completely. So abstinence, then you have the middle circle that outlines your boundaries. So
39:24
that's behaviors that may not be inherently, you know, quote unquote bad things, but have a
39:29
tendency to lead to inner circle behaviors. So that's the boundaries that you've been discussing.
39:34
And then you've got the outer circle. So that's all about these healthy behaviors. So that's
39:38
habits that will help you better manage your self care and navigate the stresses of life. So
39:44
why focus on it that way in our middle outer, why not just focus on the specific act of acting out?
39:52
Go for it. Yeah, yeah. And so I mean, the why behind this isn't fully, you know, my ideology,
39:58
there's been a lot of research around this, but specifically with that outer layer of healthy
40:03
behaviors, when we focus on being a more balanced and whole man, we become the type of man that
40:11
doesn't need porn to get through the day, for lack of a better way of explaining it, like,
40:18
it goes back to why do people turn to those things in the first place? There's always a
40:24
reason that's not just you're too weak, which is partly why I mean, the answer isn't just like,
40:30
be stronger often. It is will be stronger in the right areas, because there's a reason that,
40:36
you know, your armor is filling you and you're you're leading back to this area. You know,
40:40
maybe, you know, you're running yourself into the ground with your your job right now,
40:45
you're working a lot of hours and that's something you can avoid. And you have no healthy way
40:49
of managing the stress. And so you continue to turn to poor eating habits and pornography
40:55
habits and, you know, whatever, because those things in the brain neurologically give dopamine
41:01
that helps escape pain when we feel like that stress, that anxiety, whatever it is. And so
41:07
the more we can be balanced overall in our lives, the more that we are developing healthy habits
41:13
spiritually and physically and mentally and in our relationships, it's not that we'll never have
41:20
triggers like it's not that we'll never feel stressed or tired. Like, I feel those things
41:24
plenty and life is, you know, hard. We're expecting our first baby here in a few months and I'm
41:28
already anticipating like, you know, really crazy trying to get this startup and I'm constantly
41:34
trying to help a lot of guys in my personal life too. Like, I still text like dozens of guys a day,
41:38
like, you know, around this issue to kind of be their accountability partners and help them out.
41:42
And I'm like, you know, I got to make sure that I can still stay kind of in a grounded and balanced
41:48
place in these different categories of my life, because if I overextend myself in one area,
41:54
I create vulnerabilities that make it harder for me to manage the things that might crop up.
42:00
And so that's really the reason is like, you know, we're human beings and our brains when they
42:05
experience that stress and pain are going to look for ways to feel less stress and pain.
42:08
And if we have healthy ways of managing that, we don't need to turn to unhealthy things.
42:15
Yeah, so this is going to seem like I disagreed with what you said, but just now, but it's definitely
42:20
not the case. So guys, follow me here. So because I can already tell there are guys here that are,
42:23
that are really ready to try out the app. They want to kind of get in there. So guys, if you're a
42:27
little bit more like me, you're like a high standards, high discipline type of guy and you want to do
42:33
those types of things, take that same attitude into your relay group. Like it's it's that attitude of,
42:39
no, no, no, like everybody else in your life is accepting these low standards you've created
42:43
for yourself. We're going to hold ourselves to a higher standard. Because again, these groups,
42:47
in order for them to work properly have to have a personality of their own. Sometimes they're
42:53
going to take the personality of the natural leader in the group. Sometimes they'll kind of be the
42:57
average of everybody in the group's personality. But my encouragement to guys that are using the app,
43:02
because I'm sure there are people in my audience that are using it already are about to start using
43:06
it. Keep those standards as high as possible. And here's kind of leading into the next question.
43:12
Because let's say this is a physical group, because again, you're creating a digital environment
43:16
for this, which is fantastic. But let's say you're in a physical group. And maybe it's a work group,
43:22
maybe it's a colonist, maybe it's an actual recovery group. And then somebody stops coming,
43:27
right? So Bob, Bob was here, you know, every day for for three months, and it's been three weeks,
43:33
and we've seen no Bob. At that moment, there should be three or four guys that are reaching out to Bob,
43:39
like Bob, where yet you're either something's wrong, you're on a really awesome vacation that
43:44
you forgot to tell us about, or you know, there's something else that that's a that's a rise. So
43:49
help me through the process of so you've got someone in your group, and they kind of check
43:54
out of the app, right? So maybe not literally, but you know, maybe they stop posting, or they stop
43:59
checking in on anybody else. How does the community reckon with that? Because like, do they have
44:04
their numbers outside of this group? Because if they just delete the app, and then all of a sudden,
44:08
you know, Bob's missing, like how how do they pull this guy back in? Yeah, no, it's a great question.
44:14
Like the first step is being able to have visibility to know like, hey, we haven't seen Bob in a while.
44:21
And so in that group area, if I can see like, oh, it's been a couple weeks since I've seen Bob check
44:27
in, you know, that's step number one. And we're trying to actually help make it easier for guys,
44:34
because often most guys are not very good at the skill of reaching out and knowing when to reach out
44:39
and how to reach out, which is okay, like that they don't know on their own, but they need to
44:46
realize that it's important. And so we're trying to help them understand, hey, I'm using the app
44:50
right now, you should reach out to Bob. He hasn't been on the app in two weeks, giving that cue to
44:56
me and the easy opportunity with like a button in a place to like send a message that will like go
45:01
in a direct notification to him. That's like one example of how we're trying to make it so that
45:06
three or four guys can take that step and really reach out. I think the groups that we've observed
45:13
have had the most success in the app are ones where you see guys really seizing those opportunities
45:18
to not let others slip through the cracks. And I felt like back in the day, you know, in groups
45:24
that I was in, that was a role that was super meaningful to me. And I found that it helped me
45:29
more when I was really trying to almost like, you know, watch out for the flock and be like,
45:34
you know, I feel like this guy might be struggling. He hasn't said something in a while. I know the
45:37
last thing he said was like, he's going through something really tough with his wife right now.
45:41
I'm going to shoot him a direct text and just like see how he's doing. And sure enough, you know,
45:45
he responds and isn't doing well. And so trying to help make that an easier and more natural
45:52
occurrence is a huge part of what we're doing in these groups. We've also made it so like,
45:58
there's like a little friendly nudge button that, you know, if guys don't do their check-ins,
46:02
if I click that nudge button, it just sends like a little, I mean, it does like a little fun animation
46:07
of a little paper airplane being sent off and basically like sending a notification saying,
46:11
hey, Chandler, Chandler sent you a nudge, come in and check in when you get a minute. And that's
46:16
more maybe for the use case of, you know, maybe it's just guys are starting to get lazy or they're
46:20
getting busy. And it's like, hey, we have a high standard here of showing up and checking in with
46:25
each other and staying on top of reporting how our recovery zone goals are going, whether they're
46:30
going well or whether they are not, making it easy to have that high standard is something that
46:36
that we do care a lot about relay. And I love that you brought up that concept of high standard.
46:41
Well, let's talk about the future of the app because with all these different apps, it's not
46:46
just the way that it looks now. It's the way that it's going to look in the future. I'm sure you
46:50
are already having meetings about features you want to add or ways that you can streamline.
46:54
So what does the future of the app look like? Yeah, well, we started by really understanding
47:00
that we need to make a tool that's approachable for people. Like we felt like a lot of people weren't
47:04
going to these physical groups in person because they were kind of nervous about, hey, I've been
47:08
struggling 20 years with this on my own. I'm kind of, you know, scared to take that leap to go in
47:14
person or to show my face. And so relay today, like you can stay as anonymous as you want. And
47:20
we're trying to find that balance kind of like, how do we help draw guys out and like help them
47:25
have a high standard and realize like, you got to be vulnerable if you're really going to make
47:28
progress here. And you got to be committed. But still make it approachable enough that we can get
47:34
guys in the door and get them taking the first steps. And so everything is like chat based in the
47:39
app where you don't have to hop on a meeting essentially to stay connected with your group
47:44
seven days a week. We found a lot of people have appreciated having that seven days a week
47:49
connectivity. Whereas a lot of meetings are just, you know, we meet once a week. And then
47:54
the other six days, I'm on my own, which often is a recipe for where I, you know, derail a little
47:59
bit. But we're probably going to add, you know, a way to have that higher touch, you know, live
48:04
meetings that I think is a really critical piece. Because once I'm in the group and I'm comfortable,
48:09
I know that this is a, you know, a group of guys that I can trust and we're developing that
48:13
relationship, giving them the ability to have higher, higher touch like connection is something
48:19
that I think is really important. So we're going to be adding stuff there, potentially also adding
48:23
the concept of like one on one, like sponsors and accountability partners, because right now it's
48:28
all focused on the group. I think, I think for a lot of people, you know, it's hard to always like
48:33
be 100% open in a group context. But then if you have kind of one person who you can connect with
48:40
one on one, like it's sometimes helpful to be able to utilize that space. It's a tricky balance for
48:45
us trying to figure out like, how do we not just like dilute the value of the group that we're
48:51
trying to focus on when adding these other elements? But I think there is probably a way where we
48:57
need to make it so that you can have deeper one on one interactions while still having, you know,
49:02
kind of the core group and being able to opt into more high touch, you know, high interaction groups
49:09
if you want that. Or if, you know, you're in a place where you just want, just want a beginner's
49:13
dose, that's where you can start. But but letting you, you know, opt into more is kind of the principle
49:19
that we want to double down on. So it sounds like y'all got a lot of plans that's going to require a
49:24
lot of coding, which I'm glad I'm not the one that has to do that because I think I would just take
49:28
a jump off of the tallest building in the neighborhood. But man, I really appreciate you letting us
49:33
dig into all that detail in the app and everything. But that's all for me. Is there anything else you
49:36
want to get off your chest? I mean, maybe the last thought that I would share, you know, this is all
49:43
something that I started working on because I was that kid, you know, who felt like this is really
49:49
defining me becoming a man and limiting who I was as a man. And I really do think that
49:56
we need to work together as men to help each other be better. I think that's a sign of strength,
50:02
not weakness. And so the kind of final thoughts I would give is, you know, if you have been working
50:09
on something alone, and this has been, you know, the darkness that you've been pushing on solo,
50:13
don't do it alone anymore. Find other guys who want to be better, who understand the importance of
50:21
God in their life and help each other, help each other be successful. Like that's, that's huge.
50:27
I can certainly co-sign that. Chandler Rogers, thank you for coming on Daunted Life, a man's podcast.
50:32
Thanks, Kyle. Thanks for having me. See ya.
50:34
There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Chandler Rogers. But before we let you go,
50:38
we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At Undaunted Life, our mission is equipping
50:42
men to push back darkness with content that forges, spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
50:46
So the link I've got for you today is a link to the relay website. So you can check it out for
50:50
yourself. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this,
50:54
please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five star review. If you want to come speak alive
50:58
at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undonton.life. That's i-n-f-o
51:03
@undonton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for
51:08
everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
51:11
Just go to www.undaunted.life and also we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use
51:17
their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their
51:22
self-titled debut album on Face Down Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host,
51:27
Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical
51:33
resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.