[music] This is Undaunted [music] Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Melissa Dohy, welcome back to the show. And I just got to tell you, every time you come on the show, you understand the audience. Last time you had the camo on. Today you got the skillet shirt. We got a lot of skillet fans in the audience. So, who taught you how to do that? Cuz for most people, it doesn't come naturally. >> No, I don't know. Maybe it's my good taste in fashion. Common sense. >> Yeah. Normally people look at skillet merch and think high fashion. That's exactly what we're going to go with. And that's certainly what John Cooper would say. But hey, >> we're [clears throat] here to do a little bit of business today because if guys, if you listen to my show in order, the podcast that just came out before this one, I give you my 2025 books of the year. Used to I would have like different categories like this was the best book of the year, worst book of the year, most entertaining book of the year, most you know, thoughtprovoking book of the year. Then I just said screw it, I'm going to actually rank these things. So the last couple years I've been ranking them, which is so difficult to do, especially this year cuz I normally get a stinker or two. like some of them are like diarrhea stinkers, but this year I just didn't have one. But if you listened to last episode, you know that this book right here, Happy Lies by the one and only Melissa Dohy, I have named the 2025 book of the year, at least as it pertains to the books that I read for the podcast. And I'll tell you why I chose it. And then we'll talk a little bit more about the book for the audience. Because I don't really [clears throat] do gut feelings. Like if you're a Christian, I'm like, I'm just going to go with my gut. It's like, yeah, we didn't get the gut uh in in the book of Acts, right? That didn't rain down from heaven. We didn't get the gut. We got the Holy Spirit. And so last year when I was reading Vodie Bacham's It's Not Like Being Black, about halfway through that book, I was like, "This is the book of the year." Like, and it was May or June. And I'm like, there's just not there's not something that's going to have the same level of substance and also be supremely readable unless I'm going to be absolutely shocked and surprised. And I wasn't shocked and surprised. And so that was my book of the year for last year. But for this year, it was the same exact thing. So I don't know. Do you remember when we did our first interview? Was it When was that? >> Yeah. >> Like April, May, >> something like that. Uh earlier this year. Yeah. >> So, it was early and I was probably a third of the way through the book. >> And I knew at that moment I was like, "This is unique enough for my audience. This is going to have enough red meat for my audience. You know, we'll see how the interview goes." Cuz at that point, we had never met. I was like, "We'll see how that goes." But I just had a feeling. I was like, "This is just going to be the book of the year." And we've had some fantastic books that we've read. I mean, guys, go go go back and look at our top five or so books, but that's the reason behind it. So, I know you've gotten a lot of accolades in your career, Melissa, but this one's got to be up there. I mean, come on. Is this on your like Mount Rushmore of things you've accomplished in your maybe your entire life? >> Yeah, totally. This is the hardest thing I've ever done ever, [clears throat] was write this book. >> No, no, I don't I don't mean about any of that. I mean about getting the book of the year for this show. Like, that's not what I mean. Yeah. Not Not the book thing. Not like motherhood, Being Alive. None of that. No, I mean like getting this accolade. I mean, this Okay. Yes, I'm going to I will play that. Yes, totally 100%. I was I was really surprised because this is actually how you and I um you know got acquainted is you very enthusiastically I've had a few people do this where they just they're so enthusiastic about the book and their mind is blown and I was so surprised cuz you were one of them and you reached out and wanted to interview me and I remember you mentioning this. you're like, I don't know if it's your book, but at the end of the year, I do this book of the year thing, and I'm like, oh, I hope it's me, but I I mean, we had the whole year left. And so, um, it's just your enthusiasm around it was >> part of what makes this so so much better. Like, being chosen, like the book being chosen, >> uh, from from Kyle, you know what I mean? It's pretty cool. Well, Melissa, the enthusiasm came from because, you know, I'm a goofball and I like to have fun and, you know, lots lots of energy flowing in all different directions at all times, but it was it was stuff that I had never heard of before and hadn't heard of put in the way that you were putting it because, you know, I've dug into, you know, Carl Truman's uh books and those can get really really deep. You know, our mutual buddy John Cooper, his his latest book last year or yeah, I believe it was last year. And so, I think there's Wimpy Week and Woke there. There's a lot of books like that that have some things that were related, but I had I had heard of New Age, but I was like, wait, new thought? Did this author just make this up to be like kind of kitschy and like, you know, the guy that wrote Atomic Habits, which has been the bestselling book in non-fiction for like 5 years in a row. It the book should be called How to be an adult, a basic guide, because nothing in there is, you know, like astonishing or worldshattering. But I think that was why it was because of the the the subject matter that you covered in the way that you covered it. And so just to go back even just a little bit, why make this the book? Cuz you could have written, you know, hey, you know, some random Christian womanhood book and here's how to, you know, affirm yourself in the mirror every day, but you just basically went after it super gangster style from the beginning. >> Yeah. Yuck. No, there's there was nothing appealing about writing a book at all. And this was one of those topics that was so personal and so wildly untouched in the Christian world that how could I not, you know what I mean? Um it was it was one of those epiphies, right, where it's like, "Oh, yuck. This isn't a this isn't a video. It has to be a book." And it was it had to be because you had to do your research. You're going to look really dumb, right? If you don't have like a YouTube video, you don't have to have a lot of footnotes, right? Like, but if you write a book, >> yeah, like you you can just say stuff, [laughter] claim the authority, and people believe you, but in a book, you got to actually work for that information. And it's it's untouched. It's never been written on before from a Christian perspective. And um it had to be done. And so, I think that's really what it is, is that this wasn't just a, oh, I have a platform and I can write this really squishy book to get, I don't know, a paycheck or something, which does happen. It does happen. And in the female world, there's women that are really, really good at that. Like, and I mean that as a compliment. There's of course people who of course exploit their own platform, right? And they they capitalize on it, whatever. But I think that there's other women out there that have written way better books that I don't read [laughter] cuz I you know what I mean? Like I don't I'm different. like there's an apologetic philosophical uh you know uh critical thinking like deeper kind of spirituality that I've always kind of craved for and I think that this is what partially made it so unique. It was untouched and I it was personal. >> Okay. Well, let's talk Well, I mean it was certainly personal. You got into Okay. You were kind of newagy new thoughtish and then you got disabused of that nonsense. You even talked about uh in one of the middle chapters I believe about your own gender dysphoria as a kid. You know, you experienced what a lot of young ladies experience, but had you grown up in a different time in a different city in a different family, maybe you go down the route that so many gender confused young ladies have gone down where they think these pills or these surgeries are going to save me. And it's like, no, you got to you got a, you know, god-shaped hole in your heart and you just haven't filled it yet. But let let's just look at the year because, you know, it took a long time to write the book. You get the book ready to go. You get it ready to send out. Zanderan's like, "Yep, let's start putting it on the shelves." And but then you don't know what's going to happen, right? You know, it's a major Christian publisher, which is good. You've got some buddies in the podcast space and you've made some additional buddies in the podcast space. You can market it on your own channel, but you don't know if anyone's going to read it. You don't know if anyone's going to like it. You don't know if people are going to absolutely hate it because in our modern day, you can't hate something and then just say nothing. Apparently, if you hate something, you have to tell the entire planet why you hate it and and all the reasons. But what what has the response been to your work now that we're, you know, almost a year of it being out? >> You know, it's surprising. Very surprising because I I am not a pessimist. Uh but I when you're this close, right, to a situation and it's it's something that you're just hoping lands. You're hoping, man, I hope I did this right. Um I hope that this comes through the way that I intended. I hope that this helps people. And um I got to admit, even looking back, I remember my marketing team was like, "Oh my gosh, Melissa, you wrote a book. You should be so proud." I didn't feel like celebrating. I felt >> nervous, anxious, that's the word, anxiety, cuz I'm like, "How is this going to go? Is this going to be okay?" Because I mean, I'm I'm interviewing people in real life. I'm putting that in the book. um did I do did I did I with as much integrity as I could um relay this information the best to my ability and what I'm surprised about is people like you who have reached out to me and they're like wow like I I take for granted that I know a lot of this information not all but I forget that feeling of new information like throat punching you and just knocking you down in a good way and I'm like oh man that that's cool like that's really cool that that happened. And so, um, I'm I'm thrilled that it's out there because I can talk about it and I'm able to kind of nuance different ways that new thought has throat punched you and you don't even know it. [laughter] >> And and I think it's an eye openener for people because I tried I I thought about taking your book and using it as a scaffolding to build out kind of like a Sunday school lesson. And I teach my Sunday school four or five times a year, but I use it as an opportunity to like try out new material, if you will, because I've literally there there was a time this year where I did a Sunday school lesson that was so wellreceived. That very following Saturday, I was doing a speaking engagement and I talked to the people and I was like, "Hey, I can do my normal, you know, Jesus was a manly man song and dance and that's going to be really good. Uh, but here's what I'm thinking about doing." It's because I use that as the runway. I just realized I wasn't going to be able to do it in a way that did it justice. So, I was like, "Hey, just read this book." And then, [clears throat] you know, I moved on to to whatever the thing would be like from there. But I think it's a it's a good opportunity and a good reminder for people that are in the content space is that you might be tired of saying the thing, but you might be saying the thing to somebody that's never heard it before. And so, you have to say it with that same level of gusto and that that same level of dedication to the content. I mean, I remember back in the day, I think it was Ted Williams or Stan Musel, some, you know, super famous baseball player from a billion years ago, and they were talking about why they never took days off. because we live in the modern day sports era of load management. Oh, I'm going to take the day off just because. But he was like, cuz there's some father out there working in a factory to save his money to take his son to a game today and they want to see Ted Williams play ball and they want to see Joe Deaggio play ball. And if I decide I just need a personal day, like I'll never know what that I disappointed that family, but I did cuz I didn't show up. And so for us as content creators, whether it's a new podcast audience, a new book audience, a new speaking engagement, you have to treat them as a captive audience of people that have perhaps not heard what you've said before. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then not focus on remembering your audience. That is so good because I've been dealing with that this year as well, especially with everything that's happened this year. And I've learned and Ali Beth Stucky kind of I've been watching her and the things that she's posted and she said one thing that really stuck with me and I actually saved it on my computer because she said that one of the questions somebody asked her was, "Well, how do you deal with people who constantly misunderstand you or take you out of context or this or that? You know, they might even be slandering you." And her response was wisdom. just like no matter how clear I am, no matter how much nuance I put, no matter how how much integrity and and diplomacy I put out there, no matter how Christlike I am, people are always going to misunderstand you >> and you have to let that go. And there's something about that that I'm like that was very freeing and releasing. And I had to realize my audience is not the people that don't like me, right? my audience is that that man, that woman, that child who really needs to hear this, right? It's it's a it's God. It's doing what God is doing what he wants you to do. And and knowing your relationship with him is the most important. And he is going to do what he's going to do. And that's your audience, right? And there's just something very clarifying about that that's been very helpful. >> Well, I think as well, you don't owe an explanation to somebody for something that you don't believe. And so that's part of the thing about being misunderstood is there are people that are putting words or thoughts into your mouth or your head and then they're putting them on to you like, "Well, this is what you said." And most of our reactions tend to be, "No, no, no, that's not actually what I said. This is actually what I said. I'm actually a nice person." Or they're like, "You're racist." And people are like, "I'm not racist." And then they start pulling out their I'm not racist like cheat sheet of like, "No, no, the correct response is I don't care what you think. you're not consequential to my life. Like I would ask a question back to them. Best case scenario, you walked up to me and called me that. What did you think I was going to do? Like best case scenario, pie in the sky scenario in your brain. Like I bow down before you and I say, you know what, you're right. Let me delete 850 some odd episodes of my show because one of them made your tummy hurt. Like what is wrong with you? >> I would ask them, you know, and this is where um the a theme of the last few months is critical thinking and logic. I think if Christians could learn more critical thinking and logic, we would be unstoppable. We would be able to discern better instead of just being paranoid. We wouldn't be susceptible to baseless conspiracy theories and sensational claims. We would be able to actually test what it is and then be able to go forward asking good questions, thoughtful questions, evidential questions. Um, so my my question would be write back to them, well, what do you mean by that? What what do you mean by racist? Yeah. >> Where where did I say something was racist? And then it takes your defenses down when you're like, "Oh, oh, okay. I know that. I know where this is. This is that crit critical theory garbage. Okay." And then you don't have to carry that, right? Like you have you have the answer um all along that people people carry that, right? They become allies by accident because they're emotionally manipulated. Um, but whenever you can understand you're really not racist and their projection and insecurity on that, right, their ideology on you, if you can recognize that, all of a sudden you're just you're free. And then you can actually actually see who's actually racist, right? Like who's an actual bigot? Like those things still exist, [laughter] >> but they're kind of under the radar now cuz literally everybody's a racist and a bigot. So >> yeah. And I again, don't take critique from people you wouldn't take advice from. And so this is some dork online which might be a robot. Like let's not get in an argument with those people. But uh we're running out of time here. So last question, what's next? Right? Cuz that's always the thing is like you finished the show, it's like when does season 2 come out? So everybody it's what have you done for me lately? And so you got this book. There's got to be something that we're working on. Do you got any news you want to break on the show? >> Actually, I mean no. Uh no, I'm still doing I'm not going to be writing another Well, I say I'm not going to be writing another book. I have partnered with Brave, not officially unofficial. >> Yeah, it's officially unofficial. We haven't like signed anything, but Brave Books. >> Um, they write a lot of kids books and we just had a call and I'm like, I have no I don't want to write again. It's so hard writing a book, but I'm like, this is a children's book and they partner with you and you work together to write something and they they reached out to me and asked if I'd be interested in partnering with them for an Easter book. And I'm like, "Huh, okay. Well, let's talk." I mean, I'm putting cards on the table, you know, like where I'm at because I'm so fatigued. Um, but at the same time, >> [snorts] >> uh, I want to practice. I want to be wise with my with my time, but it's very possible that I might partner with them for an Easter book. So, I mean, there's that and I'm excited about that because I love Brave Books. >> Yep. They've done a great job. We've had them on the show. We've had people, a lot of their authors have actually been on the show as well. So, that would be a great little jump. But hey, happy lies, how a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self-obsessed world obsessed world rather. The number one book of 2025 is right here in my hands. But I've got this flappy version. Can you give me like one that's like leather bound or like something like the the fancy one-year edition or something? >> Yeah, you're going to you're going to have to take that out with Z cuz um I have no power over that. I would have liked a better [clears throat] more thicker cover. >> It's all good. I have plenty of people that I can complain to. So again, congratulations. You did a fantastic piece of work here. Thank you for serving my audience by coming on here again today. We'll talk again soon. >> Yeah, thank you. It's an honor. Thanks for having me. >> Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unton.life. That's info@unton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. >> [music] [music]