Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. [music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys. We got a special return guest on the podcast today. His name is Benjamin Nolo. He is a film producer, director, and writer. Knee is known for his feature films Nefarious Merchant of Souls from 2011, Liberated: The New Sexual Revolution from 2017, and Raised on Porn from 2021. And he's been nominated for best director at multiple film festivals. But he also directed a three-part series that was a subject matter of his first appearance on the show, which was episode 357. Go back and check that out. It was called Beyond Fantasy, which kind of it was a three-part series that really exposed the underbelly of the pornography industry. And then we talked about in this particular podcast today, we talked about a couple of different things since the last time we spoke. One is called Buying Her and the other is called High Class. So Buying Her is a documentary featuring men who started with pornography and eventually made their way to paying for sex and one man almost being a part of a a full-on sexual assault. And so really talking about, okay, how did these men get to this position? How did they get into this level of darkness? Where did all that come from? And then high class is the one, it's a documentary that comes out in April of this year where it's from the perspective of these escorts because there's this idea that these these high ticket escorts in places like Vegas and all that, oh, they're just making money hand over fist. This is exactly what they want to do with their time. But the reality is exactly the opposite. These women are being trafficked. These women have pimps that are in control of them, their lives, and their money. most of these women get out of it with no money and you know obviously a a tremendous loss of dignity and it kind of talks about how they even got into that. We talked about how the the industry was able to even get to this level. How is it still legal? Why is there no public conversation about just banning porn outright which would have a lot to do with really getting rid of the demand for trafficking and for people that are being held in sex trafficking. So it's a rough subject matter today. Obviously, a lot of explicit content if you have little ears around. But guys, this is a very, very important subject matter. And this isn't, hey, here's an hour of like beating you over the head because, you know, you're still looking at porn and masturbating. That isn't this. But it's like, this is a warning bell for some of you guys that the men that were in the buying her documentary, they started where you did, porn magazines turned into porn videos, and then just went on and on and on from there as they were constantly trying to slake their lust that was only increasing over time. So guys, it's well worth your time to listen to this interview today. Without further ado, let's get into it. Benjamin Nolo, welcome back to the podcast. It has been a very, very long time as we just established, but we'll get back to that because you still refuse to just throw that stupid Los Angeles Dodgers hat away. You just won't. Because the thing is is you guys know you're ruining baseball, right? I think y'all's y'all's budget last year for players was roughly the gross domestic product of Argentina. I'm not a huge fan of what y'all are doing to this game. The best free agent. You're just like, "Yeah, here here's a nine figure deal. What's wrong with you?" [laughter] >> I love that we're triggering baseball fans around the world. [sighs] >> My philosophy is if you're not cheating, you're not trying. But technically, the Dodgers are not cheating. So until the league has a lockout and changes the salary cap structure, you know, they're they're the GM is doing his job. He is getting the best team on the field that he can. And as a Dodger fan, I'm not complaining. >> Of course, you're not complaining. Of course, you don't have to remind us. Everybody knows. Everybody knows. But I will tell you, I did discover something about myself during the World Series because when my St. Louis Cardinals aren't in it, we're going through a bit of a rebuild right now. you're just kind of left with, you know, rooting for other teams or whatever, trying to find a rooting interest. I found that I could not root for the Blue Jays because I just hate Canada that much. So, I'm sorry to my Canadian listeners in my audience. We love you guys. Uh, but you know, your your country is stupid. I can't root for the Toronto Blue Jays as much as I really wanted to. A lot of great players on that team. So, I found myself in that crazy game seven >> rooting for the Dodgers to somehow pull it out. I wanted Otani to come up with the bases loaded and to do something spectacular. I wanted to see greatness. So, I did actually root. >> The way the way you have to think about it is the Dodgers are like the Hajger Gracie of Jiu-Jitsu. That that's kind of how you have to think about it. >> Okay. >> And I have a feeling it's not Canada that you hate. I have a feeling it's Justin Trudeau and his politics. >> I think you have a lot of [laughter] >> Canada's stupid. It's cold. There's a bunch of snow. They don't want you to have guns. Like it's just yeah it's just maple syrup and hockey up there. No one cares about Canada. I'm sorry. I promise. I love you Canadians that listen to the show. Y'all are awesome. But as we did establish, I think your last podcast was like 300 and something was was when you were on here the first time. That was like four years ago. Like what have you been doing this whole time? >> I thought, man, it's been a year since I talked to you and we did that first podcast. And I went to find the email for this link. I realized it was four stinking years ago. I was like, where in the world has the time gone? >> But I love you and I we've kept in touch. >> I've been following and I love the conversations that you've been having. It's uh it just fills my heart because this you know we talked about with buying her the need for the work with men and there's you know if you look out at the landscape of the culture right now there's so much anti-male sentiment >> and so I think you've been creating a really powerful platform to help elevate men and the conversation around you know men and what men need and men's power and and it's it's awesome and so um you know as you know the answer to trafficking the issue that I focus on is good men, strong men, masculine men, um, taking their place as protectors in our culture and as as as men of integrity. And so I just I think that the the space you're filling is is really needed. I'm I'm so honored to to connect with you again. >> Well, the cool thing about this is you and I have stayed connected periodically on some different projects over the last few years. And so it is crazy to think that it's been four years. But the cool thing about the show continuing to expand because we've just been expanding and expanding every year. A lot of guys are going to be hearing you for the first time on this show. And so it's going to, you know, that's why I like to have people that I like come back on to experience this and all that. But you mentioned buying her and so buying here. And guys, you can find the the links in the show notes to Exodus Cry and we're going to get into all that to where you can watch this. But this is a documentary you did a while ago where I mean you you somehow and I want to hear kind of how you went through doing this. You tracked down men that had had a you know sexual proclivity that led to porn which again I I get weird with the addiction language cuz addiction means like if you stop doing it you'll like basically die. Like you have to it's just a it's a compulsion. It's a negative behavior uh loop that you do because you're trying to self soothe something. But they they start looking at porn and then porn's not good enough and so they start going to strip clubs and that's not good enough to where eventually they start buying women for sex. And so I guess just cur out of curiosity, you know, where did the idea to come from to even do this documentary? And then how in the world did you track down men? Because when you watch a documentary, it's like, my god, the stuff they're admitting to, you know, it's got to be true because of what they're admitting to is so egregious and embarrassing for them. But, you know, how did that even start? >> Yeah. I mean, I I feel so much reverence for the men who decided to speak up about their journey because they're giving visibility to the journey that a lot of men have been on and and the issues that a lot of men have struggled with related to their sexuality, related to pornography. So, it's very disarming um to watch the buying her as a film to see these men unpack their stories and it's very empowering from the standpoint of men watching that and being able to start to be honest about their own journey and their own sexual story. And so Buying Her has been an incredible film to initiate the conversation around men's sexuality and and what's informing it, what's shaping it, you know, what what kind of unwanted sexual behavior are we participating in and what is the answer to the complexity and the struggle? And so that's been, you know, just an amazing uh documentary to get out. Alongside of it, we built a campaign called End Demand, which is a campaign that's focused on ending the demand for prostitution that fuels trafficking. And so, that's also been a really powerful campaign. We've gotten a lot of traction. Um, that documentary, I think, really sets the table for this new one that we're coming out with um here in in April called High Class, which is more about the women who are actually being trafficked. So buying her was about the men who are fueling trafficking through the purchase of women and high class is more about the women who are being trafficked. They go hand in hand. But I know for your audience that I think a lot would be well I think they the men that you're talking to would be interested in both subjects. And I would just say for the ones who maybe haven't found victory yet in their sexuality, check out buying her because it's it's not a like the thing that I said last time we were on um we're we're here to invite men, not indict men. And buying her has this really aspirational tone to it that yes, we get into the the weeds and the darkness of that struggle, but there's also an aspirational end. I am relentlessly optimistic for men. um even given the the circumstances that that we're a part of in this pornographic generation. And so I think it'll that your audience would find that film to be very empowering. Yeah, I think you're exactly right and that's why again guys in the show notes you should be following Exodus Cry on social medias because you know this is coming out but before High Class comes out but it'll give you some time to spend some time with some of the other films that y'all have done and you know when you were on here last time we were talking about Beyond Fantasy which is a series that you did but um I guess just even curious as a quick followup to what I just asked you for these men were you shocked at how forthcoming they were whenever you sat down with them because you're not a prying interviewer. I mean, if you go back to Beyond Fantasy, you're basically a windup interview where you'll wind someone up and then just kind of let them go, right? And you're just kind of there to to ask the questions. It's probing without seeming probing for the most part. But you even had one guy admitted to following a woman back to her car. And he was he was in his brain, he's like, "I'm going to rape this woman. This is my opportunity." He had gotten so far down the rabbit hole with his, you know, sexual proclivities that he's like, "I'm going to rape this woman. this is exactly what I want to do. Were you shocked at what some of the things that they said were? >> Yeah. I mean, for my part, the interviews were compelled by my own curiosity of genuinely learning and understanding what what was going on in these men's hearts and their minds with their uh behaviors because some of them were describing some things that were pretty dark. And so like one of the curiosity questions was along the lines of like you know if you knew that these women were being trafficked would that have made a difference and in every instance the men said no it would not have made a difference and so >> I think what we created is is an environment where these men were able to be honest and the reason why I say that I have so much reverence for them is because uh courage requires fear in other words it's not courage if you're not overcoming fear. And so I think that in our cancel culture, uh, you know, for these men to face the fear of opening up about these deep, vulnerable aspects of their journey, potentially, you know, in some cases criminal, um, and and still choose to share their testimony for the sake of hoping that it would provide some hope to other men out there is incredibly courageous. And so while we can look at some of the behaviors and say those were bad, I can I can also acknowledge how courageous these men are today. And also I don't you know mo for most of these men their journey started as children. And so it started through the inadvertent exposure to pornography as children. So it's really hard to say, you know, just in the case of these men to isolate them to their choices as adults and say, well, this is who they are and, you know, as the cancel culture, this punitive justice, they should be, you know, eviscerated from society. They should be extinguished from society. Like, no, we've created a a a social lubricating, facilitating culture that is leading young boys into this this, you know, torrent of sexuality. And then when they become adults, blaming them for it as though they woke up one day and just decided to start, you know, watching hardcore violent porn. Just decided one day to start acting out on those fantasies and buying women and enacting them on those women. No, this started from childhood. And so for us at Exodus Cry, the protection of children is our strongest fight because if we win the battle there, then it makes the work as adults so much easier. When you wait until, you know, when you just expose children to all, you know, the violent, hardcore, graphic porn that's out there and then say, "Well, as adults, we'll rehabilitate them." It's a very unrealistic picture. And who's paying the price for it is these millions of women and children who are, you know, trapped in the sex trade around the world. 50 million people trapped in the sex trade around the world. And you hear these people's testimonies. It only takes one or two of them to just shatter your heart and for you to realize how high the stakes are and how sober this issue is. Well, Benjamin, I want to actually put a finer point on that because so my first exposure to porn was a picture that was under a buddy's bed and I was, you know, I don't know, 13, 14 years old or something like that. There was no such thing as internet porn because we didn't really have internet. It was 56k modems and gateway computers like I mean just we didn't have that kind of ubiquity. So the on-ramp for me cuz I've talked about how I used to watch porn and masturbate and all that. I mean, that's like it's like an entire person ago. That was like 16 or 17 years ago was the last time I I really had to reckon with that. >> And the on-ramp now for a kid is so much faster, right? Because, you know, I got a 5-year-old and a three-year-old and they're not going to have smartphones. They're not going to have unfettered access to the internet and they're not going to go over to people's houses where everyone has unfettered access to the internet. That's just not something that that we're going to let our kids do. But you can, it's not like, okay, I found some Playboys in my uncle's, you know, garage or something like that and then eventually you find a VHS and then you wait for everyone to leave and then you pop it in. Like, none of that stuff is happening anymore. It's parents, stupid parents giving their kids unlocked smartphones, which doesn't even begin to address who you're giving access to your child by giving them one of these. >> And then they're just seeing it. or these stupid school systems that have not banned phones from the school premises yet for a myriad of different reasons. It's their buddy going, "Hey man, look at this." And then they're showing them porn right there in the hallway or in the bathroom at school. But I I want you to even put a finer point because we've just kind of flown over it at this point. The link between porn usage >> and that on-ramp that gets all the way to men participating in sex trafficking. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think you know it's first of all it's important to acknowledge that we are living in the presence of a global orgy. It's kind of the hole in the wall concept. If if you're a young boy traveling through town and you know on the other side of this wall is a bunch of you know nude women and you know participating in sexual activity, how many boys are going to walk by that hole in the wall and not go peek at it? You know, there's something mysterious and innate within our sexuality that is curious about nudity and sexual activity and and so, you know, what may have been the temptation, you know, many many generations ago um would have lured many boys into it. That hole in the wall. Well, today it's not a random hole in the wall somewhere. It's, you know, the like you said, it's the it's the smartphones. It's the devices that are now ubiquitous and then at the push of a button accessing a world that is just an unending um supply of images of the most hardcore graphic nature. And the truth about our psych biocschosocial sexual development is that we are simply not ready to process and metabolize what we're seeing in those moments. So what you're what's happening is a premature awakening of a young boy's sexuality around these images that over time then necessitates him seeing those images to create arousal because what's happening is there are patterns of arousal that are being formed in the brain. His sexuality is now becoming attached to these things. So women who have been married to porn users will talk about they can't even get an erection without looking at porn or they need to participate in such and such type of sexual activity uh you know sexual act to get an erection. And to me that is so tragic because one of the gifts that we've been given in our humanity is our sexuality. this the the beauty, the the pleasure, the the passion, the the mystery, the the form of communication that it is. It's this wonderful, beautiful, powerful thing that we've been given. And what we're seeing is the violation and corruption of it. So that rather than it being used as a force for good to unite people together in wholesome, healthy relationships, it's producing destruction and mass. And so we cannot underestimate the potency and power of what the threat that pornography faces to our world. I remember a long time ago I came across this passage in which uh Jesus described the end days, the end times as it was during the time of Noah. And if you look back at that time um when the earth was flooded, the time of Noah, it says this narrative about them. It says that their minds were filled only with evil continually. And I remember I remember I used to just think on that passage and think on that passage and think on that passage and I and I thought how is it possible that an entire generation's thoughts could only be corrupt and dark and evil continually without any thought of something good. And when you now think about the role that pornography plays on the earth, there is a mass corruption of the human mind in terms of the the thought process and the and and the um brave way wavelength that that is being generated out there. Men don't stumble on these images and boys and and women today now too. 40% of visitors to porn sites are women. stumble on these images and then walk away and then compartmentalize that and now I'm going to go think about something else. Those images stay in their brain and there's a there's it's not like heroin where you go to a detox for 2 weeks and then you're good. They stay in your brain and so there's something of an evil nature that is being stirred in the energetic field of humanity at at a brain wavelength level that is producing mass corruption and darkness and oppression. And so as it pertains to the sex trafficking piece, I observed these kind of like five specific areas where pornography was overlapping with sex trafficking as I was going out traveling the world for 4 years making my first documentary. And if it's of interest to you, I could talk about that. But um but I I identified five key areas where pornography is intersecting with with sex trafficking that I think for me was just a really important revelation because it helped me realize our fight is not just to to you know end sex trafficking, free these 50 million people trapped in the sex trade. Right alongside of it, we've got to eradicate the uh consumption of pornography that is, you know, homogeneous, ubiquitous throughout our world today. Um there's at least a billion people that are consuming pornography compulsively. >> Well, yeah, I'd be happy for you to go even further into that. Like, sure. >> Okay. So, yeah. So, so I, you know, I my heart breaks when I find out about the issue of human trafficking. I have this burning bush encounter. My background was a little bit in film and that was my passion and I thought, you know, we need to tell this story. So we go out, we travel 19 countries, 42 cities, four continents investigating trafficking. And what I begin to see, as I said, is these is these different areas where porn is intersecting with sex trafficking. So the first thing is if you go into these red light districts, they'll be handing out pornography to you of the women. So pornography is the marketing of the women who are being used in trafficking. They use the pornography to advertise the women. It's like in Vegas where they'll hand you a card, woman to your room in 20 minutes or less. And so pornography is being used to market the women who are being trafficked. The second thing is is the women who are in trafficking positions are also are also having pornography made of them against their will. And so that was our big gripe with Pornhub when we did our Trafficking Hub campaign was there's no effective moderation system to filter out the pornography that is of nonconsentual um nature oftent times children being involved and it's just um Pornhub was just infested with these site with these videos of trafficking, rape, abuse, all this you know uh criminal content was on their site. So the women in trafficking are also being forced to make pornography. Then the child victims of pornography, they are being groomed to perform in trafficking scenarios by watching pornography. And so the traffickers will show these young children, sometimes as young as six, seven years old, pornography as a way to groom them, as a way to show them this is what's going to be expected of you. Most of these kids have never don't have any experience at all with sexuality. And so it's purely being informed through pornography. Um the next thing that we saw is that I started to talk to the men because you know I would go into these red light districts that they didn't real I I usually had button cameras. They didn't know who I was. So oftent times these men would start talking to me and oh you know just the most vulgar things that I don't need to repeat. But there's they felt the safety of solidarity with these other men who were all kind of in cahoots together to use these women. And there's a whole value system that goes along with it. Value system. I mean that in a very negative sense, but they're all bought in to this idea. And so I start to realize like, okay, um, we need to understand like what is going on with all these men that are like, why are you even here? and how did you get into thinking this way about these women? So, what I realized in talking to these men is that all of them 100% of the men that we talked to had a prior history of pornography consumption from childhood. So pornography was playing a huge role in fueling the appetites of these men who then at one point along the way became so desensitized where these things became so normalized began to act out these behaviors through the purchase of women without regard for whether they be they were being trafficked or not. And the fifth thing, the last thing is is uh after I made my first documentary, Nefarious Merchant of Souls, I went and investigated the porn industry, made a follow-up documentary called Beyond Fantasy, which people can see um on our YouTube channel, Magic Lantern Pictures. Um and it's a three-part series about the porn industry. What I discovered is that even for those who would say, "Oh, well, you know, I'm only watching, you know, the above board porn, and isn't there like a mainstream porn industry where this is all above board?" What I realize is that in the mainstream San Frernando Valleybased porn industry, the vast majority of the pornography that's being created is using coercion as the backdrop to get women to participate in the acts that they're being asked to do or required to do. And I could spell that out in greater detail, but how do we understand trafficking? The use of force, fraud, or coercion. Coercion is the entire backdrop of how pornography is being created in the mainstream porn industry. So the truth is is anybody who's pushing on that button and accessing these explicit images online, you really don't know who or what or how all this content is being created. 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Again, that's primalbeef.com, promo code kyle to get $25 off your first order. So, with that in mind, I've heard and I've seen some legislation coming out where they want it's kind of picking around the edges, but it's like, you know, ID requirements for porn use, for Pornhub sites, [clears throat] different sites like that to make sure that kids don't get on it. But obviously, kids aren't dumb. They're going to use VPNs. They're going to find ways around it. They'll use their brother's ID, whatever. so that they can look at this and then also you don't even necessarily need that because there are plenty of other sites where there's just the wild west like X Twitter like it's you you can go into the search bar and basically find whatever you want you can find whatever you want in Reddit like I've been told by different guys like you know hey where do you find your porn and like most of the guys that I would talk to they're not they're not paying for it they're like why in the world would I pay for it there's free porn everywhere and then all a sudden they get their hackles up that their ID might be associated with a website even though it's pretty wellnown that they already use. But I haven't seen enough, and there's probably a lot of reasons for this, enough people advocating for the blanket ban against pornography, right? To where it's like, let's let's refuse access, right? If you're an internet provider or something like that, you refuse access to these sites. And it's not so simple as doing the URL.xx or whatever the thing is to the stuff that's that's like that. But why not go after Pornhub and make an example out of them? as far as I know, they're the biggest uh, you know, distributor of pornographic content on planet Earth. Why not go after them? And if you can knock them out, then you start working on all the other different sites and things like that because just I mean, Ben, look at look at cigarettes, man. It's like now if you see someone smoking a cigarette, it's like, God, that's a dumb person. Like, this person knows what this is doing to them. But we pushed it to the edges of culture. We don't allow it on planes anymore. We don't allow it in restaurants. Most campuses now are smoke-free campuses and all those types of things and it's like people can still do it but it's such a fringy thing to where it's almost like weird now. Why don't we approach porn the same way? I agree. I think that's a you know a really powerful example of the way in which a social campaign was able to shift the locus of thought and the mass consciousness of society around something that had been so normalized. The use and consumption of cigarettes. The campaign was meant to help people understand the health implications of that and they're severe enough to where it gave culture pause to at least say, "Okay, this isn't cool. We're not going to be shoving it everybody's face anymore." And also, we have a responsibility to protect, you know, other patrons. So, even if you want to go smoke, you're not going to be doing it in our restaurant anymore and on the plane anymore and things like that. And so I do believe that part of the importance of the work that we're currently doing and engaged in is creating visibility for people to understand the harms of pornography. And my hope is that over time that will shift the locus of thought in the mass consciousness of society to see just how harmful it is. So that's the like you know public health campaign like just do we understand how harmful this is that an entire generation of children are having exposure to this and the example that you pointed out earlier in the previous generations people thought well how harmful can it be just sexuality and it's just a playboy magazine and after all doesn't every little boy like to see some you know whatever um but that is not what we're talking about today. The landscape has changed dramatically. People are starting to wake up to that. I do think it's part of the reason why our campaigns have had so much success. And so I think that's the the public health angle I think is is huge. There's a public health crisis going on related to porn. And then the other example that you pointed to, you know, what is effective legislation. So section 230 protects internet sites from being accountable for what's on their on their website. And I think that we need more legal teeth to actually go after the porn hubs and hold them accountable for what's on their site because what their position was is like, well, who can know what's on their our site? You know, it's like you can like and so nobody's nobody's held accountable. Therefore, nobody's taking responsibility. Therefore, this this content continues to go out. And not to mention, it's ruining the lives. I mean, imagine the just the repeated traumas of the people who are in these videos that didn't even choose to participate in the video and are now having it consumed to the masturbatory pleasure of millions of people online and every time they try to get it taken down gets repopulated. It's horrible. So, these sites need to be held accountable. With regards to the age verification campaign, the type of age verification that we're advocating for has teeth to it and it would eradicate the possibility of children accessing porn online and Pornhub is actually pulling out of the states and countries where this is being passed and so there is significant traction happening on that front and that work needs to continue as well. The other legislative piece that's important to us is raising raising the age of consent for entry into porn from 18 to 21 just to straight away completely abolish the genre of teen porn. No 18-year-old. I mean, you can't even buy alcohol until you're 21. Why are we targeting high schoolers essentially and and saying, "Oh, yeah, it's perfectly fine for you to, you know, make a decision that's going to have massive implications for the entire rest of your life during this trans transitional phase of life when you're at the, you know, vulnerable age of 18, just technically becoming an adult. that needs to be completely abolished altogether because the amount of girls who have ended up in the porn industry because of issues of vulnerability tied to that age and then the way that that is advertised and marketed as barely legal and all that needs to be done away with completely. So the perspective that we have is focusing on tangible pieces of legislation that will eventually regulate the porn industry out of existence. It exists because it's profitable. If we can make it unprofitable, then it will cease to exist. On the public health side, the users, you know, parents, people [clears throat] need to wake up to the reality of how harmful this is and do everything that we can to protect, you know, especially like I said, children from having exposure to these images. Well, also as a society, there's always an Overton window and it's always moving. So, the Overton window is what is appropriate within discourse for a society. So, you know, a few years ago, uh, being able to boldly stand out and say, "Yeah, we shouldn't give, uh, drugs to kids that are gender confused that will sterilize them. No, we shouldn't do any of these surgeries, these barbaric surgeries, experimental surgeries." Like four or five years ago, it's like, "Hey, you bigot. Hey, chill out. What's your problem?" Even though people like me were saying the exact same thing the entire time, but now the Overton window has shifted so much on the issue to where people were actually given insight into what was happening during these procedures. These kids that were a little bit older coming out saying they regretted getting their healthy breast tissue cut off at the age of 16 because they were gender confused or body confused or had some sort of dysmorphia. But the conversation needs to be had societywide is and this is this is with every area. It's what is the net negative or net positive setup of what we're discussing because there are certain things to where for society this thing is either net negative net positive there's no such thing as neutral and this is something that is of extreme moral value because it involves imagebearers of God. Even if you're a a non-theist, even if you don't believe in God or any of those types of things, then these are your fellow apes. the the your fellow chimps that evolved from fish, that evolved from stardust, that evolved from goo, even though we don't know how the goo got there or whatever. Like, these are your fellow species members, right? Yeah. Why Why not do something to advocate for them not being taken advantage of? But I do want to actually kind of dovetail back to something because again, I talk to a lot of men. I get a lot of men that send me emails, DMs, come up and and you know, talk to me in person. And I've I've gotten a lot of stories about where guys struggle and what they're up against. And there's a there's a thing that I don't really have a great hermeneutic to explain to them how to move forward. But there are those guys that become disillusioned once they get married because they were looking at porn, they were masturbating, but they're like, "But I'm about to get married and that's going to solve my porn problem. It's going to solve my lust problems because I'll have a wife and she will perform for me, right? And and she will do these things that I want her to do. And I'm even not talking about the guy that's addicted to porn so much that he has to have, you know, the the porn above her head while he's trying to maintain an erection during sex, cuz I've heard those stories, too. It's horrific. It's tragic. That's not the guys I'm talking about. I'm talking about the guys that are just kind of normal fellas, right? But if we're being honest, we have to talk about both sides of the issue because I am 100% it doesn't matter what kind of stimuli or what kind of influence you have, you get to make decisions about you. So if you are a man and you choose to look at pornography, you choose to go to massage parlor and and get a hand job, you you choose to buy a prostitute, you choose to sign up for a site, all those things, I don't care about your background, I don't care about any of that. You're making those choices. That's on you. However, there are women wives that actually play a huge role in this because you have women that for whatever reason decide to stop showing up sexually at all. I don't mean they're not willing to do circus sole sex. They just become asexual at some point during marriage. For a lot of women, if they will actually admit, all they wanted was to get married. And so, they kind of signaled that they were going to be sexual, maybe even did some sexual things, but now that they got the bag, they're kind of over the game because they won the game, right? They they got married, they got the husband, but there are not enough women advocating for women to show up sexually for their husbands to maybe put some of their desires to to the side to deal with the desires and needs of their husband. And again, I'm drawing a line in the sand. If your husband's like, "Hey, do this that this porn star is doing." Nah, that's broken. That's sinful. That's terrible. But if you are not keeping up your your side of the conjugal rights of the conjugal union, right, to where your husband even has to say, "Hey, are you going to honor what the Bible says is owed to me, which is your body? My body's not even my body. It's yours. Your body's not even fully your body. It's also mine. We're only supposed to be separated from the conjugal union for a short period. And that's a period of fasting and prayer, but we are to come back soon so that Satan does not come in and tempt us. But I just feel like we just treat women like, oh, you can't say anything bad. You can't like critique what they're doing. But I've talked to a lot of men and frankly I've talked to women that do talk about this issue and they're trying to get more women to be like, hey, you are the biggest person that can help your husband with his lust problem. you're the biggest person that can help your husband with his porn problem because if he is sexually satisfied in a holy and God-honoring way, he's not going to be as tempted. I know that took a while to to kind of tease out, but Benjamin, I've been just hit with that over and over and over from men all across the globe since I started Undaunted Life. And man, [clears throat] I just I don't know what to say for these guys other than, man, I'm sorry you're dealing with that. >> Yeah. I mean I I think that just the subject of you know sexuality and marriage is such a huge one in the sense that marriage is essentially a sexual contract. You know it's not just that but the the distinguishing factor of marriage over other relationships is that we are choosing to enter a sexual relationship. And for that to be protected through this commitment so that neither of us is going outside of the relationship. We're protecting that sexual intimacy in this that that is a huge commitment of vulnerability, intimacy connection. And you know, as is the case with any human being in an intimate relationship, you're going to eventually run into conflict. You're going to run into problems. And the conflict either has the has the opportunity to bring you closer together or to drive you further apart. So I think a lot of this boils down to couples ability to handle conflict. Understand that a relationship is about connection and are we fighting for connection or disconnection? Because typically the sexuality piece falls apart when conflict happens and then couples are driven apart. And in that place typically the woman the woman will begin to complain about a lack of feeling an emotional connection and deprived in that way and a man will start to complain about the lack of a sexual connection and complain in that way. The way back to the table is through understanding that the relation that relationships are about con about connection. And so are we fighting for connection and what is required of both of us to maintain to preserve to protect that connection so that the emotional con connection can happen organically, vulnerably, naturally as well as the sexual connection. It's usually not just an issue of a woman arbitrarily deciding, I'm just gonna, you know, I'm just out on sex now that I have your commitment. Typically, other things are going on. I'm not saying there aren't cases where that happens because there are um and you know, and and but both parties need to be held accountable for their role in the connection that's happening in the marriage. And what I've seen oftent times in men is that the the moment that your needs stop getting met, rather than understanding what's underneath that, you start complaining about it. And so at that point, you're no longer showing up as a man, you're no longer showing up in your masculine strength. And therefore, you're actually contributing further to the problem by diminishing the respect and attractive qualities of what it means to be a man. Now you're just complaining. Now you're just whining. Now you're turning her off even more. And so rather than complain about those dynamics, you've got to gain emotional intelligence to understand what's underneath it and find ways to invite your wife back to the table to fight for the connection first and foremost. And uh and and a lot of this happens around the conversation of needs and boundaries and what do you need and what do you need? And I think that if two people are willing to work at it, you know, anything is possible in the realm of what they can experience intimately, sexually, vulnerably. That's my, you know, belief about that. >> Well, I appreciate your perspective on that. Let's, uh, transition to talking about High Class. Like you said, new documentary coming out in April, but guys, you got a little bit of time before then, so you can check out some of the other work beyond fantasy and buying her. But [clears throat] this is a documentary as you mentioned earlier where you're focusing on the women's side. So these are women that have been part of the call it the the high class escorting or the the high ticket escort industry specifically in Nevada, even more specifically in Las Vegas. And so I guess even just as a way to start, why go from the men's perspective of buying her to the women's perspective? I mean, it seems pretty obvious, but I'd love to hear your answer. And then how do you go about finding these women? >> Yeah. And I think even with regards to high class, it still does really tie into the experiences of men and how they're being seduced into this and what it's costing us as men. Um the sex trade and men's participation in it has really helped contribute to the wound between men and women and is a part of the reason why so many women are growing disillusioned in their relationships with men. They can't find a man who isn't addicted to porn, who hasn't participated in the sex trade in some way. And so there's this chasm that's growing between us that that we need to heal. Now, I think if we can just all men and women step back from it and see, you know, the role that the sex trade plays in in seducing men into these compromised positions that is causing such a loss of respect among women. um then we can see uh collectively what the real problem is. Now, if the sex trade is the serpent, let's say in the world right now, the sex trade that shows up as pornography and red light districts and online, you know, escorting opportunities and only f and all all the stuff. If that's the serpent, Vegas is the head of the serpent. Vegas is a city that generates at least a five plus billion dollars a year through the sex trade. And what it does is Vegas sets up they they made a decision back in the 90s. Um a mafia uh attorney became the uh the mayor of Las Vegas. At the time they were trying to become a familyfriendly city. They were saying we're going to have roller coasters. We're going to have entertainment for families. We're going to create a wholesome vacation experience. He said no no no. We're doing away with all of that. We want this to be an adult playground. And the mantra was born, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. And then it went from roller coasters and mini golf to huge billboards of women in g-strings and trucks driving down the highway, you know, uh, girl to your room in 20 minutes or less, nude, you know, cars of nude women being passed out all over the streets. So, what's going on right now in Vegas is that it's become an adult playground, but there's this uh this entertainment component to where big corporations and companies say, "Well, let's have our conference here." In my industry, a big one is NAB. And um and it's a big conference for people in the film and television industry. And you know, thousands upon thousands of people gather into the city, they fill up the hotels. Well, as that's happening, as men are being drawn into these large conferences, they're being offered offered entertainment as a part of that experience. So, you have often [clears throat] times a lot of married men from around the US and around the world being being brought into Vegas to do these business conferences and then being lured into participation in the sex trade. Again, with the promise that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. But, as we know, it doesn't stay in Vegas. Now these men go back to their homes, back to their cities, back to other states, back to other countries, and now they have an appetite for illicit sex. Now that infection is being spread into their families. It's corrupting their marriages. It's it's having an effect in their workplace, in their community. And now the guy who, you know, previously, you know, may have been, you know, relatively innocent for all intents and purposes is inviting other male colleagues to go to the strip club at lunch. And how's that affecting his female colleagues colleagues and her view of men in general? And so what's going on in Vegas doesn't stay in Vegas. It's corrupting the entire planet and it is the head of the serpent when we talk about the sex trade. So what is presented in Vegas is that this is all above board highass escorting. These women are inter independent entrepreneurs. They're making all this money. They like this. They deserve this. They want this. And what could be so wrong with that? This just this subclass of these hypersexual beings. So might as well take advantage of it. No, that is not that is not reality. And I will say this, I even with all the work I had done for years was shocked when I started to learn these stories. Like the first couple girls that I interviewed in Vegas, they were like, you know, so I was like, well, you know, so so you're doing this and um you know, how much money did you make over those three years? Zero. Wait, wait. You're telling me you made you generated a million dollars a year and you kept zero of it? And to them it was such like a matter of fact foregone conclusion like yeah duh like zero. Um okay so you had the unique experience of having this pimp who you know was using you in this high class escorting. So I can that explains why you didn't make any money. But um how many other women were there that um you know did not have a pimp and and we're making all the money. This one girl says to me in my experience over five six years she goes I can think of one girl that I met that didn't have a pimp. So the truth is is that even if somebody had the bright idea that I'm going to go to Vegas I'm going to make all this money. I mean, I was with a group of girls who had previously been trafficked walking down the street and one of them happened to make eye contact with a guy. Then we spent the next 45 minutes having to be in this conversation because she was out of pocket by making eye contact with him and he believed that it was his right to claim ownership to her to be part of his corral. And we had to be like, "This is not happening." like but he was convinced you now belong to me. So the idea that somebody's going to go to Vegas and you're just going to be an independent on No, it's not what's happening. What's happening is is that the cover narrative is saying oh this is all high class escorting. reality. It's an entire uh undercurrent and uh infrastructure of trafficking and there's police participation and collusion and corruption and there's city collusion and participation and corruption. There's all these different dynamics that we get into and expose in high class. But when we were so naive, like I thought, oh, the hotels will want to get rid of this, you know. So, we were trying to rent a suite to re and create some reenactments to film some reenactments. The hotels wanted nothing to do with us. They're like, get away from us. We want nothing to do with this project once they found out it was about exposing trafficking. So all the people there have a financially invested interest in this trafficking industry continuing and but it's just this huge lie that is deceiving the masses and luring all these men in to say oh this is innocent. It's above board and what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. The truth is these women are being trafficked. These men are being lied to. It's not staying in Vegas. It's going to ruin your family. It's going to spread to your children. It's a whole horrible situation. And so the goal of this documentary, High Class, is to blow the roof off the sex trade in Vegas and cut the head off the head of the serpent. Chop the head off the serpent. One, yeah, I mean, you're exactly right. There is this narrative that people believe and women [clears throat] propagate it as well. No, these women are empowered. It's kind of this feminist thing like these women are very empowered and, you know, they're in charge of this and hey, if you're hot, you know, flaunt what you got, you know, get while the getting's good and all that type of stuff. But the the dark underbelly of that is just not nearly as true. Like I remember talking with Britney Delorea who was a porn star for a very long time and she her manager essentially operated like a pimp. She had a minimum that she had to make every single day and if she didn't have a scene that day then she had to go to you know what Back Page or one of those places where she had to basically go turn tricks for you know 50 100 bucks at a time to get to that number. And let's say she did shoot a scene that day and she got, you know, five times what her daily number was. That didn't roll over to the next day. She didn't get to take the rest of the week off. Every day was the same number. And this was a girl that was in all the porn videos. She went out to all the porn conventions. Like she was sought after. But then she also got caught up in the the trafficking side of things because if you're a man of means and you see this gal and you know by her stage name and you're like I want her and I want her to myself, you'll buy her for a night, right? And so your pimp might get 10, 15, 20, even more than that, thousands of dollars >> to basically give you every sexual fantasy that you've gotten from all these porns that you've watched. But this time it's with that person but in real life. But you're hitting on something here about the complicity of, as you mentioned, law enforcement, supposed law enforcement from the government officials, the local magistrates there in Las Vegas in Nevada, the people at the hotels, the people at the casinos, the people that would be hurt financially by this going uh going away rather. >> Mhm. >> But I'm just curious, how high does this go? And I don't like, you know, uh, dealing in conspiracy theories and, uh, no matter what the thing is, you know, there's always this evil cabal of people that no one knows. We just call them they or we basically, ah, it's the Jews or, you know, whatever. But we don't have any evidence to substantiate any of those claims. But I'm just curious, like, I think there's a reason why there's not a movement to make this illegal, to make porn illegal, all these things to just be super duper illegal. It's It's got to go above what we're thinking. So, how high does it go? I mean it by the will of the government this could be stopped overnight right so >> um so there's clearly collusion and complicity happening at that level and if you look back to the time of slavery and the transatlantic slave trade you know a lot of it came down to the cultural attitude about slavery and there was a mindset that slavery has been around since the dawn of humanity. It's always going to be here with us and so we might as well make the best of it. And we had government officials at the highest levels vehemently arguing for the value of slavery in our society. And they made economic arguments and they made arguments like, "Oh, conditions in the West Indies in America are much better than they are in Africa." And we had all kinds of cover narratives to support the slave trade industry. And so it wasn't until Wilberforce came along and actually began to expose the deeper truth of what was going on and where was this rooted in humanity and that we would allow such an unjust trade to continue. And then over time 46 years of social campaigning finally shifted mindsets to open the door for laws to be changed around slavery. And it's the same way with the sex trade. Victor Hugo came along a few years later. He was writing layers Rob in Paris. He was observing prostitution. He say we say that slavery has ended in European civilization but this is not true. Slavery still exists but now it applies only to women and its name is prostitution. So he put his finger on this idea that men had given up their entitlement to subjugate oppress and exploit other men through the system of slavery. But they had not given up their entitlement to subjugate oppress and exploit women through the system of prostitution. Fast forward 150 years, globalization technology pornography internet, and we've just seen this mass explosion across the planet of the sex trade. And so, what's the argument underlying this? The cover narrative. Ah, it's the world's oldest profession. All these same mindsets that have allowed it to continue just like it was with smoking. Oh, this is good. You know, all the arguments that were in favor of smoking. This is cool. this is the and there actually were arguments saying that it's healthy for you. So we know these industries will use any lie to propagate their product to make money whether it's slavery whether it's smoking or whether it's sex trafficking and so it's up to us as intelligent caring empathetic human beings to get to the root of things to find the deeper truth and elevate that with visibility to shift mindsets in society so that we can actually have the will to end these things. But currently there's you know from an attitude level on a so the the the social lubricating factors are the attitude about this that exist has existed for a long time and then the financial motivation that pulls so many entities into it whether it be government law enforcement you know the the the traffickers themselves um the the taxi drivers the hotels like there's a whole facilitating culture around this that allows it to thrive. And so I think for us, you know, that's what gives so much meaning to these projects. I desperately want to work myself out of a job. I do not want to have to make these documentaries. I'd rather be making documentaries, you know, highlighting the beautiful aspects of creation than exposing these deep injustices. I remember reaching this point where I had finally gone on a vacation a couple years ago and realized this is the first time I've been in a city for a few days where I haven't tried to deconstruct and see the trafficking element at work in this city. It's horrible. It's a horrible, dark, oppressive place to live. But this injustice is ruining people's lives in ways that are so absolutely grave that I do think it's worth our fight to shift the mindsets and ultimately change laws to eradicate this justice from our injustice from our society. >> Yeah. Amen. Well, uh, last question of the day. Just tell us a little bit more about Exodus Cry. Again, guys, you can go to the show notes and check out Exodus Cry or Google it. You can find it. But tell us about the work that y'all do through Exodus Cry. >> So, yeah. So 50 million people trapped in the sex trade, a billion people hooked on porn. Um our mission [clears throat] at Exodus Cry is to end trafficking, eradicate porn. The way we do that is through the creation of these high impact films that raise awareness and then building campaigns alongside of them to change laws. So anyone can check out our films at exoduscryilms.com or our website and our work at exoduscry.com. Um, all of our films are available for free online and, uh, they're a great way to help get educated about the issues. >> All right, very good. Well, uh, we've weaved in and out of a lot of different subject matters. I appreciate you coming along on the journey with me, but that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> No, I appreciate you, Kyle. Thank you so much. I know we've tackled some really complex issues and we're doing it in a condensed manner, but um, would love to continue these conversations with you offline and and just thank you for all that you're doing and for your audience. I appreciate all you guys are up to. It's awesome. Thanks again for coming back on. There you go guys. I hope you enjoyed the return appearance of Benjamin Nolo on the show. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. So got a link to the website Exodus Cry and a link to where you can check out some of the videos that we talked about on this interview. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast or shoot me an email to info@undantton.life, that's info@undanton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] [music]