[Music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Joby, I don't normally get scared by things, but you don't smile a whole lot. And so, to back up just a hair for the audience, okay, let's explain why. First of all, I'm getting there. I'm getting there. Let me build the suspense for the audience. You're like Ryan Horn right now. But yeah, so, you know, I've said before that whenever I lay down at night, that's when my brain kicks into overdrive. That's where I get my my best thoughts and I I get some of those things. I get some ideas. And so, I came up with an idea and I pitched you on it. And I should have been concerned at how quickly you said yes. But the idea was was, "Hey, Joby, old buddy, old pal who would never do anything to make Kyle look bad. How about the next time we record Ask a Pastor, we flip it. We flip the script a little bit and we do ask a podcaster and you ask me questions and you're like, great." And I'm like, "Oh, good. Another good idea." And then the further I've gotten away from the idea, the less because if you're not watching this right now, he has got pages of questions in front of him. And because here's the thing, I'm like, "Hey, how's it going? How's it going?" Prepping for the interview. And you're like, "Dude, I got I think you said hundreds." It's like I got hundreds of questions because you put it out to your staff. So, I don't know that I like the idea anymore. So, do I need to commandeer this episode back? Is that what we need to do? >> No, you already gave it up. You can't take it back. >> Um, >> no takebacks. Yeah, I didn't I I've got one question that is going Oh, you don't even know. >> And it's probably gonna go the opposite way. You normally you end on just kind of a funny This is that is not going to be funny. It's going to start fun and get harder and harder and harder. >> All right. >> All right. Yeah. So, we put it out to our staff and >> I mean, in one second, I got four pages of questions. >> Oh, boy. >> That if I had three hours, I would ask them all. Okay. >> Well, >> and I'm going to reserve their names because I love them. I'm not. Well, that that's probably a bad thing for me. So, uh I guess I'm as ready as I'll ever be. Uh Joby, so fire away, I guess. >> All right. Uh some We'll start easy. What's your favorite way to relax after a long week? >> My absolute favorite way to relax is back porch, cigar in one hand, scotch in the other, and old fights like pride fights. Uh playing on the uh on the television. I could be alone. I could be with buddies. That's the first one. Good answer. Don't you love those old ones when like one guy still got just like his like top ge on stuff like that? >> Yeah. And I'll watch those pride fights that happened back in like, you know, the the Fedor back in the guys were definitely not going to drug test you days over in Japan. And when you see these mutant human beings, a lot of names that you would recognize like soccer kicking each other while they're laying down on the mat. It's pretty awesome. >> If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying. All right, here we go. Uh, what has been an embarrassing outtake with a guest and did you edit it out? Um, well, this wasn't an outtake and it technically, and Landon's probably going to laugh at this because he's seen me with technology at my fingertips, and I've told the story before, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Gman, he was like my third or fourth interview ever. And so, I'm like recording in a closet downstairs cuz that was my studio at the time. And there was no video. And he wrote the book on killing and on combat. And we do this 2hour, 2 and a half hour long interview. It was spectacular. And then when I went to go grab the files off of a previous program that I used to use, the files weren't there. Hey, no biggie. The files are saved on my computer from my side and from on his computer from his side. And I go, "Hey, sir." And I email his assistant, "Hey, if you'll just you open that room back up, I'll be able to snag the files." For whatever reason, his assistant the moment he turned off uh the interview, she doesn't update on his computer, right? All those files just completely disappeared. And I found out that before they did, right, that the files were like gone gone, like gone forever, Aaron Hernandez. And in that moment, I like reached back out to, you know, Colonel David Gman and I was just like, uh, Lieutenant Colonel David Gman. I was just like, I am so sorry. Like, this is what happened. This is like my third or fourth interview. What do you do? And he had the best response of all time and I've been able to pay it forward because this has happened to me on other people's shows. He goes, I guess God wasn't satisfied with our first goround, so we're just going to do it again. And I and I was like, "Wait, what?" And so we did kind of the same interview, but his answers were crisper. They were better. And like, so there's never been a flub, a really bad flub here on my side. It was like a tech thing that didn't quite have anything to do with me, but yeah, I I still remember that. >> All right. Who would be other than me, who would be a dream interview for you? >> So, I actually here, let me actually wrote a thing down on my phone. And I have a note on my phone of people that are like that probably won't ever happen, but if they did, I would be just like absolutely tickled to death. Let me let me pull this up. We're doing it live. Uh, all right. James Hetfield, lead singer of Metallica. Uh, Yellow Wolf, who is my favorite rapper of all time, but he he'd had this documentary years ago where he kind of tangentially talked about Christianity and God and all these types of things. And so, I would want to tease that out a little bit. Obviously Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, I've talked about that a lot. Sean Ryan, would love to have him on the show to talk about his journey. The most underrated country music goat probably of all time, Oklahoma, Vince Gil, if you're listening to this, buddy, come on back to the studio. We'd love to have you. And then, uh, Douglas Murray, those are the ones that I wrote down on here. So, uh, we'd love to have those guys on the show at some point. >> Would you be willing to host a, uh, Dave Smith, Douglas Murray round two? >> Uh, yeah. And this time I wouldn't try to put my thumb on the scale for one side versus the other. Like I would actually have some neutral points of view and let them discuss it as opposed to just looking at Douglas like he has boobs on the top of his head. >> It continues. Uh any alternative names before you landed on Undaunted Life? >> Um there's none that really Oh yeah. Yeah. Saying it out loud is going to sound so lame now. Um, I was, for whatever reason, I was thinking like algebraically and I was like less than man. Like no one wants to be a less than man, right? You don't want to be less than whatever the standard is, less than your aspirational identity. >> And I never wanted to call it undaunted life. I just wanted to call it undaunted, but undaunted.com is taken by some like Polaroid photographer who hasn't updated his like website since, you know, the AOL gateway computer days. And uh so the only thing that was available was undaunted.life. I was like, "All right, well, I'll just call it undaunted.life. No one's ever going to like know this is a thing anyway." And here we are, just like you guys, the dumbest church name of all time. And I've got undaunted life. It's like a a mouthful, you know? It blocks my stuff when I try to send emails cuz it's coming from a life and not a show. >> It's better than less than man, especially during the trainy revolution. That wouldn't have that would have been very confusing. >> That would have went over like a lead balloon. So, I'm glad it didn't work out. >> An entirely new crowd. So, see the sovereignty of God. All right. Uh, what's been the most shaping thing that you've learned in podcasting? >> Um, I would say the most shaping thing is that nothing is nothing uh exceeds uh preparation. I'll say because you can tell when you listen to someone else do an interview because I've listened to people do interviews with authors that I too have interviewed and I judge myself very harshly. But when I see how clearly unprepared the podcast host is, especially if there's a really tough one, I'll tell you one off air. There's one especially that I was like I couldn't believe how bad the interview was because you could tell the person never really reckoned with the actual content and author the the the most common positive that I've gotten from people that I've interviewed is the moment I turn off the recording, right? They say, "Hey man, thank you so much for actually reading the book, I can tell you read it." And that's how I can ask questions like, "Hey, you said this in chapter 3, but then in chapter 7, you said this, and it it seems contradictory. I'm assuming I'm having trouble connecting the dots here. Can you help connect them for me?" Uh, and all that. And by the way, I forgot to mention from the beginning, uh, I I wanted to be like you and be unprofessional on an interview. So, I'm wearing this hat here, but it says redeemed on it. This is the official hat of saturated 2025. Guys, if you're listening to this on time here in like a week or two, make sure you're watching the church 1122 Facebook and the YouTube and all the things so we can see who is it. So, it's uh Willie Robertson, John Tyson, uh Hopper. >> Phil Hopper. >> Phil Hopper, and I uh Lisa Turkhurst. >> Lisa Turkherst. Yeah. >> Boom. There you go. >> And then and then me. >> Bam. >> Don't forget me. I'm here too. >> Yeah, you're there. >> Uh yeah, that's how we met. We met on a on a you know podcast book tour thing, which I'm back in right now. And um I'll just I won't tell you who, but I I think I did seven podcasts yesterday and one of the guys asked me all these questions and it reminds me of one time I was in a seminary class and this and we got graded on participation and my seminary professor said to somebody, he was like, "Well, it is abundantly clear that you've read the first chapter." Cuz every question the guy asked was only the first chapter. So it's fine. Whatever. >> Now, one quick thing. I I just prepared my interview for you because I'll be interviewing you while in uh Jacksonville for Saturated about your new book, Act Like Men. >> I will tell you my interview is very chapter one heavy. It's intro chapter one heavy because you are it is like banger after banger after banger for those first couple chapters. So the guy probably was just a lazy sack of crap. But it is possible that he just got really really uh you know attached to the chapter one content. >> All right, here's a Kyle kind of question. What what is the largest animal you think you can take with your bare hands? >> Bare hands. Wild animal. Take you mean like kill? >> Yeah. Like Yeah. Or at least, you know, beat up that it might would run away. >> The largest animal. All right. Water animals are out. Uh unless they're on the shore, which that creates >> See, no. Yeah. No, we we'll say in their own habitat. So, you're >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't care how big it is, you're dead. >> For what reason, I thought ostrich, but that thing's going to jack me up so bad. Um, >> every monkey chimp thing has surprising a surprising amount of strength. Uh, you know what? I'm going to go sloths aren't very big. Uh, pandas are basically bears. Uh, dang it. Uh, you know what I'm going to say? I'm going to say a newborn giraffe. Okay, >> I'm jacking that thing up. It's 2 seconds old. Like it it fell like 12 feet from its mom's body to hit the ground. That thing's going to be enormous, but it's going to suck at everything. So, I'm choking that thing out. >> All right. What about What about adult animal? Full grown. >> Oh jeez. >> I mean, it can't be much bigger than a dog right? >> Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is wild animals don't have rules and like they don't have standards of decency. And so, yeah, I'll say probably like a standard poodle. Uh, I could probably smoke that thing, grab it by its curly ears or something like that. Uh, full grown. Maybe like a full grown dough, right? Does can you know I But they don't have anything on their on their heads that's really going to mess with me too bad. So, I'll I'll say full grown. >> You seen those videos where they get up on their hind legs and like beat the crap out of people with their feet? >> I've seen that. But they're always bucks. And so I'm going to say I'm going to assume that this is a a lady lady deer little dough that is, >> you know, passed on its baby. It's no longer trying to jack things up. So that's what I'll go with. >> All right. Another deep question. Uh what's an unpopular opinion that you have as a podcaster about doing podcasts that you've never said out loud on your show? >> Oo. Um not everyone should have a podcast. Uh because the barrier to entry to a podcast is a $50 mic and an internet connection cuz that's how I started. But Joby, I get emails all the time and DMs all the time from guys like, "Hey, I'm starting a podcast. I'm a trucker and I'm starting a podcast for truckers that live west of the Mississippi uh that grew up Methodist." And I'm like, "All right, well uh if you're not going to have a broad audience and these people want it to be like a career, they want it to take off." I'm like, "Just because you can talk doesn't mean you should publicly. And if you're not going to say something in a unique way or have a unique take on something or have a unique target audience, you just don't need to have a podcast. I mean, there's 6 and a half million podcasts out there. How many guys have got a podcast, they recorded episodes for 3 months, and then they take a year off, then they come back for season two, which is code for I'm lazy and ran out of stuff to talk about. And so like and that's thing celebrities it's like yeah you might be interested in what your favorite athlete or former politician has to say but if they're not that interesting it's just going to wear on you for a year or two so that or a month or two rather and so yeah just just because you can talk doesn't mean you should publicly >> there's more grind than people think too right. >> Yeah. People don't really understand like cuz they're like oh man you've been at this for a long time huh and they're thinking like a couple years. I'm like, "No, 2017, we're over 800 podcast episodes right now." And we were doing one a week when I was still working full-time doing other stuff. But now, like a forging table on Sunday and usually an interview on Tuesday and another interview or a solo on Thursday. For those interviews, I'm consuming the content. I'm reading the books. I'm watching the documentaries. I'm doing the things. And like forging table, even though we do them all in batches, that's an entire night. I mean, that's five hours that that we are in here recording. And you got to have your crap ready to go. And so like again just turning on the microphones and being like I bet I'm interesting. It's like the bets actually the money's on the other side of that. >> Uh what's a episode that you regret the most? >> I don't regret uh any episodes. There were some interviews that I thought were going to be awesome that just flat out weren't. There were some interviews that I thought weren't going to be great that ended up being spectacular. Like the first time you and I did an interview. Uh because because again I was like oo megaurch pastor that wrote a book. Neat. Like that's the most unique thing ever. But the book was >> you regard the most. >> There there really isn't one cuz even the ones where like Crisen Mayfield and there was some some doofy Yeah. There was some doofy guy that would like walk on plain wings because that got him closer to Jesus or whatever. These are people that flame me online afterwards. But it gave me an extra opportunity to point at people that act like that and say, "There's a type of man that I want you guys to be. Don't be like this. Don't be one of these people that is has me engaged in front of their face and then later runs to Twitter or runs to their blog to like flame me online. It's like look dude, you used me to get to my audience so that you could make money selling books. The least that you could do is respect the platform and respect the time that I gave you. But yeah, I don't regret those. Like those are things I can call back on. And if I'm sad on a drive every every now and then, I'll just throw Chrisen Mayfield's interview on. I get to giggle. What uh what about the one you're most proud of? Not counting me, obviously. >> Uh the second one with Phil Robertson, the first one we did in person. >> So, just got back from uh West Monroe here recently. So, you guys will be seeing an interview with Al Robertson here soon. You'll you'll be seeing me on Unashamed again. First one we did was digital. He was sitting in his chair in his living room. And, you know, it's a little bit disjointed, but the second one, I mean, we just connected. I just got to let him let him go and do his fill thing. At the very end of the interview, he goes, "We in this together, brothers." And he extended his knuckles and we uh we knuckled across the table. And then I' I've said this before as well, but as soon as the camera's turned off, I expected Phil to do the thing I'd seen him do every time, which is he gets done recording, takes off his headphones, sets them down, and bounces. He sets down his headphones, he gets up, walks around the table, gets right in front of me, and he says, "No matter what, son, you keep going. You were built to do this, and you just keep going." And like I'm the type of guy that I I don't mind getting a pat on the head. I need a little bit of recognition, not a whole lot. That that's enough, you know, fuel in my tank for years. And there are times, like this week, uh we hadn't had a chance to talk about it yet, but man, I've been getting crushed uh by people that are just critical of my podcast, critical of the things I talk about on the Daily Blade. Right? Right. So, if you go look at look at the reviews for the Daily Blade, which I have no idea why. I was scrolling looking at them. >> Everyone's a big fan of Joby. People aren't huge fans of me. They're like, you know, why is he talking about the Bible? He's talking about all these other stories and whatnot. And so, when you get into those moments where I kind of get into this negative self-t talk, like I got a hundred positive comments in a row, but one doofus is like, "Yeah, you suck and your face is dumb." I focus on that one. And so, but then I do think back to, hey, Phil Robertson said, don't don't stop. Like, you keep going. And it's like it's one of the great Christian patriarchs that we've seen in modernity. So, yeah, I go back to that one a lot. >> Hey guys, real quick. As you've heard me describe before, I am incredibly conservative about the supplements that I take. I spent years being terrified of putting different products in my body because I didn't know what they were made with or if it was going to be kind of fly by night companies using all kinds of crazy ingredients. So, I've always wanted to partner with an American company that only uses the highest quality ingredients. And that's why I want to remind you that we are partnered with Joo Fuel. Jaco Fuel is Jaco Willing supplement company that is based here in the United States. So, what are some of my favorite products that they make? So, they make whey protein powder and guys, they just released a cookies and cream flavor not that long ago and it is ridiculously good. Make sure you use it with milk. It makes it even better. They also make clean energy drinks. I finally decided what my favorite was and that's pink lemonade. That is my favorite of all their flavors. But they also have the best tasting greens powder on the market. I prefer the peach flavor myself. They also make pre-workout and ready to drink protein. So I actually mix the ready to drink protein in my boys's milk. And they love it. They're constantly like da da banana milk, banana milk. So we got to hook that up in the Thompson household. But I also use their krill oil, fish oil, creatine, vitamin D, and their sleep aids. And guys, they've got new stuff coming out all the time and a bunch of stuff I didn't even have time to mention. Guys, if you take your health and wellness seriously, then you simply can't afford to put cheap and inconsistent supplements inside of your body. Try Origin out today by going to www.joofuel.com. That's jofuel.com. Use the promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. Again, that's jofuel.com. Promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. Yeah, when I was on when I was on Unashamed, uh, we got finished and I had zero expectations of I just thought I'd get up and leave and feels like cuz I'd met Miss K a few times at a T-Bo event and he was like, "Miss Tay, Miss K would like to know if you want to come by for some tea." And I was like, >> "Yeah." >> Like, is inviting you behind the curtain, you know? Anyway, what a what a He's a goat. Um, >> all right. This one's very long. Ready? >> Yes. Go. When I read Exodus 22:2, it seems to permit killing and self-defense without being considered a sin. And I also see in the Old Testament where God commands his people to kill. But in the New Testament, I see the disciples facing sin and injustice in their world, yet choosing to suffer and even die without harming others. This leaves me wrestling with whether Christians should ever kill even in self-defense. From a biblical perspective, under what circumstances, if any, would killing and self-defense, whether for oneself or to protect others in the moment, not be sinful? And do you have any scriptures to inform your view? So, is like righteous war, self-defense, killing, is that an Old Testament view only or is it okay according to the New Testament? So if you look at because we don't see stories of martyrdom of all of the apostles in the New Testament. We we see you know some of the apostles and disciples. But if you read a book by William Bennett called Tried by fire. It's about the first thousand years of persecution for Christians. And it gets very very dark and very detailed. Christians that were boiled alive. Christians that were put in cages and put underwater like you know ISIS is doing in modern day. you know, uh, a horse strapped to a rope strapped to one leg and another horse to the other leg and getting ripped in half by horses because you're a professioning believer, right? If you are experiencing persecution in that way, then as unfortunate as it sounds to say out loud, you're you are to die a martyr's death and you will receive a martyr's welcome in heaven. Right? But if somebody is breaking into my house in the middle of the night because in the middle of the night they don't want your stuff as much as they want you, right? I think you are you are well within your rights to end the threat as violently as possible. Right? But there is even in that scenario you can have neutralized the threat and the person still be alive but you continue the violence and I think it could pass over into murder in those moments where you've neutralized the threat. You can stand your ground but the threat has now been neutralized and that person can can remain alive. Right? Same thing in public. You know, if somebody's attacking you or someone you know or someone you love or someone you don't know, a stranger in public, if a wolf is about to take advantage of a sheep, even adult sheep, I think it is incumbent upon Christian men to intercede for image bears, right? Because if we bear the image of God, we are worthy of protection. That's why I'm so vehement about protecting the unborn. And you you do see in the Old Testament that if you take the life of another, if you shed the blood of man, like you have forfeited your life. And if we lived in a just society, the gap between, you know, being convicted and being executed for spilling the blood of man would be a quick process, not a decades long one. >> So yeah, I'll follow up with my staff member on this one because one of the things I would caution anybody, please don't ever try to pit the New Testament against the Old Testament. Please, please, please. That's a mistake in and of itself. >> Context was very, very different. A part of the way, this is a good way to think about making choices. Um, one day you'll stand before the Lord and give an account for whatever he has given you responsibility for. So, you talk about all the time, I'll have to give an account for this church. All of us men will have to give an account for our family right? >> Yep. >> So, you got one of two options. God breaks into my house and I kill him. Then one day, I get to heaven and the Lord's like, "Why'd you kill that guy?" And I was like, "Cuz I was protecting my family." And he goes, "You're not supposed to do that." Okay. Can you imagine it the other way? Why did you f let your family die at the hands of that burglar? I gave them to you as a responsibility. So if I have to heir, I want to heir on the side of God, I thought I was in line with what you called me to do as a man, a dad, and a husband. And so if there's not like a specific chapter in verse in the New Testament about what you should or shouldn't do, one of the things that helps me is what's the story I want to tell God when I'm standing before him? >> Yeah. What leads to flourishing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I we'd be better there. >> Well, well, Joby, even even to that point when the lawyer was asking Jesus, you know, what what's the greatest of all the laws and he said, you know, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. Okay, break that down in a Old Testament, New Testament context. Who is my primary neighbor? I've said this a lot. That is my spouse. That is Kelsey. My secondary neighbor, James and Elijah Thompson, right? Tertiary neighbors is everybody else. Friends, strangers, everybody else. And so if it's a choice between because you know you'll see this thing to where it's like all right there's a train and it's it's headed on the right side of the track and on the right side of the track is your wife and your kids and on the left side of the track is a thousand strangers and you can pull that lever and send the train towards a thousand strangers. It'll kill them or it'll kill your wife and kids. In that scenario again I I become uh I I don't become very um I I forget the exact expression uh you know where you're looking for the most good for the most people. It's escaping me right now. But it's like those thousand strangers are going to have to die because my primary role on this planet is protector and provider for Kelsey, James, and Elijah. And I'm not going to apologize for it. >> What's a common miscon misconception about biblical masculinity that you wish more men understood? >> That in order to be a Christian man, you have to be a pansy. I mean, you've talked about this before to where it's like, and it's even in the book, like, you know, most men feel like they have to check their nuts at the door. And most churches don't do anything to disabuse men of that notion, right? Because the music being sung is being sung by affeminite people in a key that men can't hit. It doesn't have parts where a man's voice can be represented. You have volunteer opportunities that very, very fe feminine. You have pastors whose content of their sermons being very, very effeminite, way more on the grace side, less on the truth side, way more on the lamb side, not on the lion side. And so the thing is is when I when I get an email from a guy in his 80s after I go on the Mike Glover podcast and he says, "I didn't realize until hearing your conversation with Mike that for the last 60 years I could have been a believer and a tough guy." Like that's that's terrifying to me because me, a random podcaster says something on a podcast and you're like, "Well, early in life I thought I could be tough or I could be godly and so I chose to be tough." and now you're in your 80s, in your sage years, and now you're just realizing, hey, I can be tough and godly. Like, it's such an indictment on the modern church. >> Amen. I would say you can't be godly if you can't be tough. But see my previous sermon a few weeks ago about Oadia. Uh what's one cultural trend you believe is especially dangerous for Christian men today? Um, in terms of cultural trends, I I would say uh the desire or the the requirement to affirm because men that love to go along to get along, men that love to be known for what they're for, not what they're against and all that type of thing, those are the men that will say, "Okay, yeah, I guess marriage can be with a man and a man. It's not what I would do. I'm not attracted to men, but I guess that's okay." Right? So, they sell themselves down the road just a little bit. same thing where it's like conservative Christians are screaming from from the rooftops, no, you can't allow for gay marriage because or you can't allow civil unions cuz then it'll lead to gay marriage and then gay marriage will lead to gay adoption and gay surrogacy and all these different things where we're just slowly cutting out the legs from our own culture. And the same thing, hey, do you want to have a living son or a dead daughter, right? This this non-existent binary when it comes to the transing of the kids. And I mean, most men, I guess I would add to it, most men just don't want to be the bad guy, right, with their wife, with with their kids, with their kids' school, with the principal, with the teacher. They don't want to be the bad guy and say, "We're not going to go this direction because it's not honoring to God." But most guys don't think in that way. They think, "I'm just going to go along to get along. I'm not going to rock the boat." Because somehow the whole like the top thing as a Christian is to just be as nice as possible and to have as many friends as possible. >> Yeah. Yeah, I used some of your language in that sermon about Obadiah and Elijah about going along to get along and you know, yeah, a lot of guys just say yes to whatever the last audience they had. That's what Oadiah did. So when he saw Elijah, he was like, "Yeah, cool. You're a prophet of God." Then he saw Ahab, he's like, "Okay, cool. We'll kill babies." So yeah, there's too many of those men. All right, this one's fun. If your voice was forever changed into a Disney princess, what princess would you be? >> Dude, this is the easiest question you've asked so far. Little Mermaid, give me Ariel. She's redheaded. I'm redheaded. It's the perfect thing. And guess what? I'll go one step further. I'll grow my hair out and I'll wear wear a seashell bra. How about that? Right. Easiest one you could have asked me. >> All right. You're scaring the kids now. >> All right. I'm saying I'm saving like the real doozy for the last one. Oh, boy. Um, >> so we got a few more. Okay. Oh, I feel like you We're coming up on time. It's crazy. It goes so fast, doesn't it? >> It does go fast. >> All right. How do you personally guard against spiritual pride when leading others in faith? And and I would even add having the largest Christian men's podcast of the 6.5 million podcasts out there. You have the most popular Christian men's podcast. So how do you guard against spiritual pride? So I kind of didn't have the language for it until I talked with Wes Huff. I think I don't think this is something that he said on the show. I think this is something that we said offline, but he says, "Every time I get a cool opportunity or a new accolade, I look at it as an opportunity to come low to to say, "God, you're ridiculous." Like, in the best way possible. You're incredible. Like, how in the world did you orchestrate this? I can't even connect the dots from where I was to where I am now. You are so awesome. And so, cuz again, we had the number one podcast in the world for Christian men for like 10 months, and I had no idea, right? Right. I get an email from Spotify that says, "Hey, this is where you peaked this year in the charts." And I was like, "They should really send you a plaque in the mail or something, right? Like to give you something that you can show your grandma or something like that." >> But when I got that information, yes, I was excited to share with my foxhole, with the forging table guys, with you, with Chandler, with all the people that, you know, are rooting for Undaunted Life and for us to continue our ministry work. But I looked at that as an opportunity to come low and say, "God, thank you so much for letting me do this. Thank you so much for providing an audience that can sustain me coming out there and and giving these opinions that are very forward and tend to be very abrasive. Thank you for the emails from the men that are like, "Hey, I live in New Zealand and there's not really churches around here and so listening to you and Joby like really kind of gets me going and keeps me on the standard that I need to to keep for my family and all that." Like just look for opportunities to come low. So you get the promotion, you get a PR in the gym, you win a jiu-jitsu tournament or whatever the thing is, look at that as an amazing opportunity to come low. >> You know, one thing you breeze by there that I think is really important is it's really healthy and helpful if you've got it could be one person or a very very small group of people that you can legitimately get excited about something with and not have to hold back. Yeah. So my son JP and I, we just have a deal. And I'm like, dude, I can't brag to anybody. And you know, of course, you shouldn't boast. You boast in the Lord. You know, far be it for me to boast. That's 6:14. Galatians 6:14, no problem. But like, if he taps a couple of guys out in practice, I I need him to know he can call me and he doesn't feel braggadocious. He can be like, "Guess what?" >> Or whatever the thing. If I sell a bunch of books or whatever. And so it's my son, but I don't I wouldn't talk like this to anybody else. But it it kind of like gets it out of you and you're like, "Okay, there it was. Cool. I felt cool." And here's somebody cheering you on and then immediately I I like the way you say it. It's an opportunity to get low. >> Well, well, Joby, you actually you gave me permission to do that with you um like earlier this year or last year because I remember going back because Vodie Bacham did his first appearance on the show. He's been on since then. It took me about four years of like finagling and trying to work this angle to this person to get an email to do the thing to whatever. And it was like the least intrusive thing ever that actually got me through. But after four years of trying to get this guy whose ministry I respect so much and whose work I respect so much, as soon as the interview was done and I hit stop on the recording and hung up on the call, I didn't have anyone to tell. Like I or I didn't tell anyone cuz I was like, I don't want to seem braggadocious or whatever. I'm excited. But, you know, I told my wife, but she doesn't really know who Vodie is. And so, she can only be so excited about this random stranger that she's never met. And so, but like it is cool to be able to go to somebody and say like, "Hey, here's a really cool thing that happened." Okay, put that on the shelf. It's great. Thank you, God. Come low. Move on. >> Dude, one of the things I've noticed about some of your recent guests, take like Max Leo. I mean, he was like, >> "Yeah, >> Kyle, what you do is a really big deal." And Max Leo is a dude, man. So, that that's happened a lot, too. The quick gun guy, too. He says in that kind of like humble he was like, "Hey man, you're a really big deal." And he and he de he was like, "Hey, you're no Rogan, but man, the moment I told my friends I was coming on undaunted, they're they're blowing me up now. So that's cool." >> Yeah. I mean, hearing a guy like Victor Mark say that and dude, the Max Lucada one. So the book came out in August, so did the interview. Guys, his team reached out to me on a Thursday in March or April. They said, "Max has a new book coming out this August. we'd love for him to come on your program. Are you available next Tuesday at 9:00 a.m.? Which is like the easiest yes in the world. It's like, oh, you know, no matter what, surgery, nah, we're bumping that. We'll fix the shoulder later or whatever. It doesn't matter. >> And to hear a guy like Max Luc, like America's Christian grandfather, to to say the nice things he didn't have to say about this ministry and the the conversation. Yeah. Super humbling. >> Well, just know, man, I'm there. I'm rooting for you in Jacksonville. Like, um I don't know. I feel like like some of these people, especially Max Lo that I've looked up to for a long time, when they're bragging on you, it's like if my brother wins an award, it's something like that. Like I'm just I'm in, you know, I was listening in my bathroom and I was just like, >> "Let's go." >> I can tell your team Kyle because for the first time, it took about three years. Jacksonville is actually in my top five cities that listen to the podcast because it was always, you know, Dallas and Houston and randomly Seattle was always in there. Charlotte and whatever, but Jacksonville is a perennial top five now. So, appreciate all you guys listening. And Duvall, did I do it right? Like the new Jags coach Duvall. >> No, he's a good guy though. Liam's a good guy. We're going to fix that. And he's going to fix the team. I believe if the team is empty, anything is possible, we're going to win the Super Bowl. All right. Ready? All right. This is right. This is a softball for you. What's one biblical truth you think is under preached or misunderstood in today's churches? >> Sometimes turning over tables is an option. And so again, if you're real aggro in your personality, that's your favorite story in the Bible. It happened twice. You love telling people about it and that is your excuse for being a jerk, right? In all situations is I'm just over here turning over tables. But for the most part, that's not most guys. For the most part, guys need to turn over some tables in their house. Not literally, guys. You know, you don't need to have to run to the furniture store after walking in. But again, it's in your church, right? Your your pastor starts saying things that are fairly apostate sounding, right? Or or kind of like selling out on certain issues and standing firm on others. With brothers, you got a guy a buddy of yours that drinks a little bit too much. You got a guy that ugles the the waitress a little bit too much. There's some tables that need to be overturned because there are things that break the heart of God. That's what Jesus was doing. He wasn't flexing in the temple. He was showing these people just how inappropriate, immoral, and ungodly they had become and whispering wasn't going to work. Wrapping his arm around a few of the money changers and saying, "Hey guys, let's do some disciplehip meetings and maybe some prayer circles." That's wasn't what was required in that moment. What was required was a whip and violence. And most guys just don't really have a category for that because they've got too many pairs of khakis in the closet. They've been doughy and frumpy their entire life. And that's been two thumbs up acceptable, especially to the pastors and elders of their church that are the exact same type of guy. And so, yeah, sometimes turning over the tables is a category. And we need to have space for it. >> Yeah. I was teaching on anger uh over the summer. We did a series called In the Arena about fights in the Bible. and you uh I'm a fan of The Chosen. I haven't watched every episode and you pointed me to the the Chosen's version of of Jesus turning over tables. And like you said, that was one of the best renditions, especially what I thought was so brilliant about whoever put that thing together, whatever those folks name are, they did it from the point of view of the Gentiles that were coming to wa to watch Yahweh, >> right? And I think a big thing that [inaudible] Jesus off is they were using the gentile court, the very place in the temple that was supposed to connect people to the outsiders, and they had they had commandeered that to line their own pockets. And Jesus gets very very actively angry. So I appreciate you pointing me towards that. >> When Dallas Jenkins was on the show, I think this was like during season 3 or whatever of the chosen. So I think they're going into season six or seven, but or they're filming it now. But at the end of the interview, I remember asking Dallas, I was like, "Hey, are we going to see Jesus turn over the temples and can you please please make sure it's not like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm having to do this. Y'all really made me mad this time, like how it's kind of been in all these other pieces of art." And I remember he just kind of had a this rise smile and he just says, "I think that you're going to be happy with the direction we go." And this was years before they even shot it. But the buildup, the preparation, the end of episode one of the latest season where you see Jesus like splitting some leather, making the whip of cords, it was just I mean literally I'm getting chills right now. But yeah, that they're they're operating at such a high level right now. So chosen haters, get out of here. >> Yeah, it's cuz in Mark's account, he goes and checks it out the day before, then goes back to Bethany and sleeps on it. I mean, and so that's that's more of the angle they took. Um, I was on a guy's podcast and one of the things that he said about that that was really, really good cuz cuz I was talking about when godly men walk in the room and when you are saved, not soft, when you're strong, the weak don't get they don't get scared or scarce. They feel safe and secure. >> Mhm. >> And then he pointed out in that episode because it comes from the Bible. If you'll notice, the people were not afraid. Jesus is whipping the t the the people that are taking advantage and then immediately a crowd of followers surround him. They are not afraid of his aggression because it was not at them. That's also a really good key element. Like if your kids are afraid, you might not be doing it wrong. >> Yeah. >> If your kids feel safe and secure, you know, cuz you and I both at times have had to apologize to our children because we got loud about the right thing, but maybe, you know, they overheard it in the wrong way and so or you know, the wrong context. So, >> yeah. Lion lion for them, lamb with them. >> Yeah. Amen. All right. Now, this is going to be our our final topic. Is there a topic that you thought I would have brought up that I haven't brought up yet? >> Well, I thought you were just going to give me multiple choice of like, how would I kill baby Hitler? Like, would it be with a hammer? Would I dash his head on the rocks? Like, what what exactly would I do? That's what I just figured it was just going to be a nice easy multiple choice. Or you're going to try to embarrass me with some are you smarter than a fifth grader stuff because I didn't mean to embarrass you, but apparently you didn't pay attention before you got to college. No, no, no, no. I didn't. Um, no. This is about one of the one of the I probably had more follow-up conversations about this topic based on one of your episodes than any other topic. We're going to talk about IVF. Ready? >> Let's go. >> All right. And I'm going to ask two questions. And you know, I'm not a gotcha guy, but I think this would be a good conversation. is the standpoint quote Christians should not or shouldn't do or support IVF presumptuous about the Lord. The creation of life begins to God alone. Psalm and a bunch of scriptures. Psalm 139, Job 33, Genesis 30, 1st Samuel 1. You don't have time to look all those up. And he can say yes or no at any time he chooses. Please answer this question with a premise because this this premise is true in Jacksonville from at least one place I know. Um, please answer this question with the premise that embryo storage is stewarded well and destroying any embryos is not used by the biological parent couple. That's not an option that there is like embryo adoption for couples that are struggling. So, so >> to the best of their ability, they are trying to do this. They're not going to fall off the slippery slope of designer babies. They're not killing loads of embryos. Do you think with those preconditions, what would you say about IVF? >> So procreation is one part of IVF, right? But in God's design, life of humans is propagated via the conjugal union. Okay? And so when you separate the creation of life from the conjugal union, you are separating it from God's design. And when you start messing with and alterating God's design based on modern technology, I think you should be very very careful of the moral implications of what you're doing. And what you're describing is something that I'm actually rather unfamiliar with, which is where people are creating a single fertilized egg and implanting that into the uterus of the mother because it is prohibitively expensive. Right? That's why doctors typically create six to 10 embryos. They'll implant four and if all four of them take uh we're going to do a selective reduction what they call it cuz let's have twins we can't have quadruplets right and so but even if Joby the technology gets to a point where you can do a one one it's still removed from the conjugal union which which I I feel is not an insignificant thing to consider and again I have family members my own I have a niece and a nephew because of that process but I also have some nieces and nephews that are in arrest to development right now that will likely never be adopted because there are literally right now just in this country millions of frozen embryos. Millions. We can't get tens of thousands of kids that are living on this side of their mother's womb into loving homes. And you just give me this idea that oh okay all of a sudden millions of embryos are just going to be adopted and implanted in the in into you know expectant mothers. I just feel like it's a little bit fanciful and it's a number that's only growing every day. >> All right. So, with that in mind as the backdrop, here's the the the only question I'm I wrote myself. Ready? >> Yep. >> If the only way that you could get James and Eli was through the type of IVF described in that previous question, that they that they weren't going to fertilize a bunch of embryos. They weren't going to implant a bunch, but the only way you could get your two boys was IVF. Would you do it? >> So, I'll start with my answer and then I'll back into it. The answer is no. Because you were either consistent or you're inconsistent. Okay? I live in the world of black and white. I don't live in the world of gray. And so, in this world, there is no James or Eli. And I know you've created the scenario. So, it's like I would have this preconceived knowledge of having a James or an Eli. But again, >> like your James and your James, that's what I'm trying to make it as personal as possible, >> right? In that scenario, it's either morally positive or morally negative. There's no such thing as morally neutral. It's either sin positive or sin negative. There's no sin neutral. And so based on the arguments that I've seen being somebody that was pro IVF until relatively, you know, recently, right, I think the moral implications of the entire process and the removing of the creation of life from the conjugal union from God's plan is not something that we get to do. And so, uh, but I will say this as my as my other caveat. If you're listening to this and you've got a baby that you can walk into the other room and look at right now that came because of the IVF process, praise God for that life. Praise God for that image bearer of God that is now in your care and you are to raise that kid up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. But if you've got some image bearsers of God that are in a rested development cryogenically frozen somewhere, it is your duty as protector and provider talking to the men. It is your duty as protector and provider to give them the best chance possible for life outside the womb in your family. Those are your children. They are your responsibility. You wouldn't have four kids, your wife gets pregnant with a fifth, and you're like, "Ah, let's actually just give this one away. Four is enough." No, you would find a way, right? You would get bunk beds. You would, you know, get some loans. You would figure out some stuff at work. You would make sure your family would work with those five kids. But because these are children that are really really really small and somewhere where we can't see them or think about them all the time, we all of a sudden change the standards on morality. I just don't give myself that much rope to hang myself with. >> Yeah. The thing I would if if a if the technology came along to take away some of the biggest shadows of this, right, like discarding embryos, selective, you know, I picked this one over that one, all of that. Is that something that you might would reconsider or at least do another lap around or is this the kind of thing that you just have decided once and for all this is it let's go on to the next subject. >> I don't think there can be a technological innovation or a medical uh efficiency standard that can be reached where I could say that it is a good thing that we remove procreation from the conjugal union. And I know I keep going back and banging that drum, but there's a reason why when God gave Adam and Eve the the mandate to be fruitful and multiply that the option was togetherness, unity that created life. And so, yeah, I mean, I know there are are Christian organizations out there that think differently than me. They're creating opportunities for people to do one for one transfers and and all the things for for people that have spent years trying to to get it get it going like the natural way and for whatever reason they can't get it going uh and they can't get the baby to stick. I know personally I have friends that have had it's either four if not five miscarriages uh right now it has something to do with the things coming from mom and dad and the body is actually rejecting the created being for any number of reasons that we won't know this side of glory. But I I will say for me again, just because it's convenient and cheap or it's it's gotten convenient and cheaper, that doesn't necessarily mean that God's a fan. >> All right. So, part of the reason I want to ask this these questions, you know, I'm not a gotcha guy. I and I honestly don't really care too much to argue about this, that, or the other is I know you pretty dang well. And sometimes people don't actually get to see your heart except for when you talk about babies. When you talk about babies, you cry. >> Yeah. and sometimes dogs. Sometimes it peaks through there. What I do want people to see in you is that you're not just a phariseaical legalist that has decided something and this is it. Now, that is how you come across, but that's also what makes you a successful podcaster. You're like, "This is it." You know, you just kind of spitfire on the wall. No problem. And then to quote one of the best things your favorite preacher Andy Stanley said one time, he you know, this is a really good comment. >> Yeah. The further away you are from something, the simpler the solution seems. And the only reason I ask specifically is cuz man, when you start getting up there in the graner, it just never changes what's right or wrong. It never changes what's right or wrong. It just sometimes is more complex than you would think. Okay, last question cuz we can't end on that one. Um DC of UFC fame came out with his Mount Rushmore of fighters. >> Mhm. So, two questions. One, he left off Jon Jones because of performance-enhancing drug use. >> Yep. >> Do you think that was right call or wrong? And then two, what would be your Mount Rushmore top four UFC fighters of all time for whatever reason? You you had the hammer and chisel. You can do it. >> Yeah. Let me let me actually go >> Jones. Yes or no? >> Well, actually, let me go back to Andy Stanley just real quick >> on the Andy Stanley thing. If if you use that same parameter, right? So the further you are away from something that applies in all categories, sir. So when you say that you might have a granddaughter someday or a grandson someday that wants to marry someone of the same sex and you allude to the fact that you would perform the wedding if asked, it applies there, too. Okay? So if it applies across the board, it's got to apply in your own household, if not more so, if you want to actually be a standard keeper, standard bearer. >> And and again, I'm not saying that you waffle here. I remember it hit me one time. I was going to Israel for the first time and my dad who lives in Virginia and he's like, "They fight a lot over there, don't they?" I was like, "Yes, sir, they do." He goes, "You ought to tell them to cut it out." >> All right. It's a little bit complicated. You know what I mean? That's all I mean. These these, >> you know, we were talking about Dave Smith and and Douglas Murray. One of the things Murray got roasted on is when he said, "Have you been?" >> Right. >> That's a legitimate question because Dave Smith's never been. I have been in the West Banks and held coloring books of Palestinian children that had the most atrocious things against Jewish people you've ever seen in your life. Dave Smith's never held those. So, you are right. It applies to everything, right? It applies to all kinds of decisions. I um you know, you and I hate the word nuance because people dodge truth and they call it nuance. So, pick a new word. But there are complicated issues. Speaking of uh Mount Rushmore, UFC all time, is DC right or wrong as Jon Jones in or out? And who are your top who are your four? I agree with Daniel Cormier's uh evaluation of his former rival Jon Jones, probably lifetime rival Jon Jones. It is very hard to put someone on your Mount Rushmore if they have popped for performance enhancers. And it does speak to Jon Jones's personality to where he had doubt to where when he was fighting these guys cuz Daniel Cormier pointed out look in Bel or wherever it was strike force he's like everyone he fought was dirty but he still beat him. He said Jon Jones is just the only dirty fighter I couldn't beat but there was some doubt in his mind that he could beat me so he cheated. >> As I say that I'm a walking contradiction because he's on my Mount Rushmore because I've got some weird standards for my Mount Rushmore that I will explain fully here. So, one of the >> we're closing. So, >> we're closing >> the greatest of all time, you have to take everything into account. So, when people are like BJ Penn in his prime or Anderson Silva in his prime is the goat. You can't do that. You can't take a snapshot of someone's career. You have to look at the entire career from soup to nuts in octagon performance outside of octagon performance. You have to look at how they acted. Did they ever test positive for anything? Were they ever caught up in any like cheating kurfuffle? So those standards being my standard, the greatest MMA fighter of all time is George St. Pierre. I hate that cuz he's Canadian and he's French Canadian, which makes it even worse, but there is one. Give me him. But >> great dude, man. I've hung out with him. He's the most humble guy I've ever met in my life. >> Yeah, just absolutely incredible. >> Now, incredible. >> You have to go with Okay, it's us versus Russia. This is the final smackdown of all Smackdowns. Russia gets to send one guy into this middle of this field, right? No weapons. We America, dang it. We get our guy. Flies in on a bald eagle. Similar to the eagles that they should have been able to fly to Mordor or Mount Doom or whatever in the stupidest trilogy of all time, Lord of the Rings. Suck it, Lord of the Rings fans. >> Lord of the Rings. >> Yeah. Oh yeah, you should have. God losers. And so if we got to fly one guy in and there's no rules except for, >> you know, if your guy wins, you take over the entirety of the other country, but if your guy loses, you're now a slave to that country. Send Jon Jones in on all the Mexican supplements. Juice him out of his mind. Send him in there and we're got we're good. Americans, we're going to be good to go. So, there's those two. Now, >> you're just going to put a needle on Mount Mount Rushmore with him. Like, just so we know. No problem. >> Yeah. Like, I said, >> you have the chisel, so nobody gets to decide for you. You get to chisel up. So, all right. So, we got two. All right. John, this one's going to be a little controversial because it's going to seem like I'm doing some sort of Irish thing. You can't have the biggest star in the history of the sport not on Mount Rushmore and that's Conor McGregor. And for people that are looking at Conor McGregor's last three fights where he got dominated by Habib, dominated by Dustin Porier, and then breaks his leg against Dustin Porier again. You're like, "Oh, he was never really that good, blah blah." Shut your stupid mouth. He was the 145 champion, then he went up and smashed Eddie Alvarez to win the 155 lb belt. He's the only the first guy ever, and he called it the first guy ever to have two belts simultaneously. And you can say, "Oh, well, Dana wanted it to be that way." And yeah, okay, whatever. The biggest star in the history of the sport has got to be on Mount Rushmore, and there's not even a close second. George St. Pierre isn't. Brock Lesnar isn't, not Ronda Rousey. He is the biggest star in history. So, he's up there. But the fourth one is going to be a surprise because this is the MMA uh, you know, pantheon, right? We we've got all that. >> Give me Hicks and Gracie. And this is why everyone talks about Hoist, right? Hoist who gave you your blue belt. Hoist who made you panic tap, right? Hoist who made you tap to pressure, which is not a thing that a man would ever do. He won the first two UFC. >> I was a white belt. I was not a man. >> It's okay. That's true. That's true. >> He goes in there, he wins those first couple of UFC's. The the the idea was is that his his father knew that Hoist was going to listen to him, but also Hoist was scrawny looking, didn't look athletic, didn't look beefy. And if you want to prove that jiu-jitsu is superior to wrestling or sombo or to Muay Thai or whatever the thing is, you throw the least look like guy likely to be able to win a fight out there and you just watch them smash body. >> What about one glove boxing? How about that? >> That should still be a thing. Hey, that's a derivative of we see those guys that like strap their hands together and then they're like boxing over like a, you know, arm wrestling table. Like that could be something we do for men's conference coming up. >> I feel like I feel like you've thought about this a lot. I thought about it like way too much, but because I knew I was going to get asked it eventually and I wanted to sound smart. But even at the time when Hoist was winning the UFC championship, no one knew the name Hixon Gracie. But Hoist being interviewed in the Octagon after he wins says, "Yeah, my brother Hixon is 10 times better than me." But Hixon was about 190 pounds, looked chiseled, looked like he was in shape, but smashed everybody, undefeated in his MMA career. And yes, if you dropped him into the middleweight division of the UFC today, he gets smashed to pieces. I get all that. But he was winning no time limit sub only matches. He was winning MMA fights. If you have multiple matches in a night, >> right? Multiple matches in one night. You know, having to win three times to win the entire thing. Go watch the documentary Choke. All that stuff being in there. A lot of people put Hoist up there. Can't do it. Got to put his big brother up there. >> All right, that's all I've got. Anything else you want to get off your chest? >> No zingers. And you use my sound my like send off at the end. You commandeered that. Is there any way that I can sue? Is there somewhere where I can send a letter saying that you've commandeered my stuff? You're plagiarizing. >> Just email me at jimmy crackscorn@care.com. I'll be happy to not read it. >> No better way to leave it than that. Thanks, Joby. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unson.life. That's in nfo@ undontton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undaton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [Music]