[music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. >> Joby Martin, are you tired of me yet? because I think I saw you three times in person in one month and that's a lot. That's a lot of times to be on an airplane flying to the exact same place. >> Well, yeah, you should probably just move here. >> I keep hearing that, but you know, uh, y'all have dinosaurs that just like roam the streets. And, you know, Mike Dragage can't be everywhere at all times. And so, like, although I did, you know, he did teach me some things. So, I feel like I'm, you know, decently experienced at fighting gators at this point. >> Yeah, you have, you have mastered them. I what what can you be afraid of? You've killed one with your bare hands now, so you're good. [laughter] >> Well, I I'm afraid of all the other ones that aren't uh fully aware of my experience and resume, but uh to transition, I I wasn't going to ask about this, but I've been getting peppered with a lot of questions here recently, and so we're recording this just maybe about a week before it comes out. Just Israel in general. Okay, I know there's a lot of confusion and again not everyone knows exactly what's happening on the ground with Israel and Hamas and people have their own ideas about Gaza and their own ideas about that. Um, but people are like, why are Christians supporting Israel? And there's a lot of, you know, issues with that. As I've said before, u I support Israel and my support for Israel as a country today has nothing to do with the Israel of the Bible. Personally, I support them mainly because they are the only Western democracy in an Islamist Middle East. That's why. And so I now I can make some other arguments uh you know outside of that. But I I personally can separate you know the Old Testament, my faith in the Bible and my support for Israel as a country, especially when it comes to defending itself. But people are curious about uh your uh just specifically with Israel. You know, we can talk about the war with Hamas and all the things. I think that that's pretty settled at this point, but you know, just your thoughts on Israel the country versus Israel the people, whether Christians should support it, and what does Joey Martin think? >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, you have to define the terms when you what do you mean when you say you support Israel? Are you talking about like the government that Netanyahu is in charge of? And is that what you think uh Genesis 12 and Romans is about? you know, are you talking about the people? And then do you mean just all people that have the bloodline that you could trace back to Abraham? And if that's what you think, then what do you do when Paul says all Israel is not Israel? So, um, does if you bless Israel, you will be blessed. Does that mean the geography, the government, the bloodline, or the people of promise? So when the person I'm talking to answers that question, then I could tell them whether I quote unquote support Israel or not. Does that make sense? >> Yes, it does. >> Cuz all those things are different answers. Um [clears throat] but you I mean you were particular in your response. You were talking about the political organization that is Israel run by Netanyahu today and your support for them is for political and ideological reasons in that part of the world. So that's very very clear, right? [clears throat] That's different than like what Ted Cruz was talking about when when he was on Tucker Carlson. He just has been taught in Sunday school his whole life that if you know if you bless Israel, you'll be blessed. That was actually um Isaac says that to Jacob. >> That's where that verse comes from. Um >> talking to a person. >> So there's a lot I'm just uh again, man, the further away you are, the simpler solution seems. the more you get into some stuff, uh, the kind of the hairier and more complicated all things get. Right. >> Right. >> Um, so I would be very I I am a a covenant theology grafting believer. I think when the Bible talks about Israel according to the book of Romans, like Romans chapter 10, that the people that believed in the promise of Abraham that by by faith we will be saved by an atoning righteous sacrifice. today. Those are Christians. Now, that has been mislabeled as replacement theology. We're like, "Israel's out, the church is in." Like, no. Let's use Bible words. I believe in a grafted theology that we have been grafted in to all of those who have always believed in Yahweh that he would send his son for the forgiveness of sins and that one day all things all people would be that believe would be reconciled into him. I'm in that camp, whatever you want to call that camp. Um, and so yes, for those who bless the sons, the children of God, you will be blessed. That's what I think in the particulars. There's two things that we have to simultaneously be able to agree with. One, a nation like Israel should be able to attack evil and defend itself, >> right? >> All right. Period. Two, we should not be okay with the indiscriminate killing of innocent people. Of course, and we can chew gum and walk at the same time. Currently, I don't see anybody holding both of those positions. You know what I mean? It's like, well, war sucks. People die. No, you don't get to do that as a believer. You don't get to just tap out on instant life dying because that that's just the nature of it. That would be the equivalent of saying, "Yeah, you know, for the advancement of science, got to lose some, you know, got to lose some people." You're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." No, as Christians, we can simultaneously believe in the advancement of science and the the infinite worth in every image bearer of God. And so, as a believer, that is what I am trying to do in regards to currently the government of Israel and the decisions that it is making. >> And I think the overall point that you're making is we have, you know, the the walk and chew gum at the same time. It's holding two ideas that seem disperate in tension. That's what we're doing. And so it's like, yes, I support the Israeli government. Does that mean I am for every single person in the Knesset? No, of course not. Like you can support the government of the United States of America and not, you know, support every candidate in the house, for instance. But at the same time, when you're trying to kill Hamas and you accidentally kill a civilian, that is a tragedy. Right now, we can compare it to other wars and how they're waging the war versus how Hamas waged the war. And these we can just easily see that these are not the same types of people. Uh ultimately, they don't have the same motivations or moral code. So, I appreciate your perspective on that. Go ahead. >> And I don't know what it is. I the older I get or maybe the more information we have, I am growing more and more and more uh suspicious of any and every government the more I learn about them all. Yeah, >> including ours. >> Yeah, I think it I think that that's fair. The the thing, you know, we kind of make the joke. It's like you used to be a guy that didn't see a demon behind every bush, but then you hung out with some Pentecostal people. Now you think there's maybe two behind every bush. And so for me, [clears throat] >> just because there can be a conspiracy doesn't mean that there is one. And I do follow AAM's razor, which is the simplest solution has the best chance of being correct. And so is it did did we go to the moon or have we covered up the moon landing for the last half century plus and you know all the different things it's like that doesn't always work out but AAM's razor is usable for a reason I'll say and so don't worry I'm not going to ask you about whether or not you believe in the moon landing because we got to move on cuz I snuck that one in there and now we're getting to my actual questions. So um people like to ask the question are Mormons Christians? >> But you know I hate the word nuance but you do have to nuance the question a little bit. So, I was thinking about it this morning and actually I got hit. My algorithm apparently is in my brain already because I saw a clip from John MacArthur and RC Sproul. They were talking about Catholics that pray to Mary and pray to saints and those types of things. And so, uh, there are people like John MacArthur who said, "If you consider yourself to be Catholic, you are not a Christian. It's not possible." But I'm in the camp that there are Catholics that have put their full faith in Jesus for the propitiation of their sin debt. They just got some really jacked up theology and they do some really stupid things and they believe in things that aren't real like the catechism and purgatory and they pray to Mary because God's busy and like you know >> they're going to be killed. Ready? You have to be a terrible Catholic in order to be an actual Christian. >> You have to be a terrible Catholic. You have to disagree with Catholic doctrine >> in order to be an actual Jesus follower. >> And there are a bunch of those, >> right? Because the gospel was considered anathema. What at the Council of Trent? They haven't really rescended that yet. And so that's an anathema. >> Yeah, it it's deeply problematic. >> Correct. >> But does the same thing Joby apply to Mormons? So, because I think there are Lutheran, there are there are, you know, maybe Pentecostals, uh there are Baptists, there are are people that would identify as that that are Christians and that are not Christians. Now, Mormonism seems seems different, right? That that I think you can very easily define that as a cult. But when you talk to a Mormon, they say that they believe in Jesus for their propitiation of their sin debt. But then they say also a bunch of other things that are completely offthe-wall that were apparently on these golden tablets that nobody can find. Um, and so is it possible for a Mormon to be a Christian in the same way that a bad Catholic can also be a Christian? >> So, uh, so yeah. Um, how about this? How about let me let me reframe it. In order for a Mormon to become to get saved, to be a Jesus follower, you would have to repent of your Mormonism, you do not have to repent of your Lutheranism or Episcopalianism or Baptist or Presbyterianism to be a Christian, but you do have to repent of being a Mormon because they don't believe in the divinity of Christ. They do not believe he was co-equal with God. So you have to repent of that in order to become to get saved to be a Christian. Um so no they are not Christians. They are Christians in as much as um socially or politically or you know as a as a people group but not in regards to what the like sheep and goats they're goats because they think they can earn their way to heaven and they are going to say yeah but when did we not feed you and when did we not like we cast out demons in your name we preached Jesus in your name we did this and he's going to say you didn't know me you thought I was the brother of an angel that turned into a god That is not what the Bible says. So they don't know the person and work of Jesus >> in the way that the Bible defines him. What they have done is just redefined the terms. So they can say we believe in Jesus, but it's a different Jesus than the one the Bible talks about. So a Mormon would have to repent of their Mormonism in order to come to Christ. A Baptist, a Methodist, a Presbyterian would not have to. Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you train for very specific things. 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And for a limited time, Mountain Tough is extending undaunted lifers like you an incredible offer. Go to mountaintuff.com, that's mtnuff.com, and enter the code kyle when you sign up for a monthly plan to receive your first month free after your 14-day trial. So, that's six weeks free to make sure this is for you. I'm sure it will be. That is 6 weeks free on the best-in-class physical and mental training app in the world. So stop wasting time. It's time to get real fitness results. Let my friends at Mountain Tough guide the way. Again, go to mtntuff. That's mountain.com. Promo code Kyle. All right, there you go. Next question. This is from a Dominion team one member. And look at you. Shout out to your hat. That is a Dominion Watchman hat. So you can't even get that until you're like an alumni of the Dominion program. So if you don't know what we're talking about on dant.life/ life/dominion. But this is Josh, a member of team 1. He says, "Scripture tells us in Galatians 5:22-23, the fruits of the spirit, love, joy peace patience kindness gentleness, and self-control. In other areas of scripture, we see there being an order of hierarchy, beginning with the most important first and the lesser last." Would it be wrong to see the fruits of the spirit in the same way? I'll often remember all the fruits while speaking with a non-believer and with new believers, but I slip up on the order. Thank you, sir. Uh, first of all, I don't think this is a technicality, but they're not fruits. The Bible, it's a singular. It says the fruit singular, the fruit of the spirit. So whereas um I don't it may or may not be hierarchical but I don't think so because I do think um I don't think our fruit all grows in the same order you know and if some were more important than others then then the spirit of God maybe would sanctify us in particular order and so I really think the growth of it is up to Jesus not up to you in fact if you're trying to manufacture behavior that is different than what is produced if you think about the difference between like Lowe's and a grocery store. The produce section have things that are grown or produced from out of something else. And the manufacturing stores like Nuts and Bolts are man-made. And if you get too hung up on what the fruit is, then you'll try to go from the outside in. My favorite example to use is the guy that's trying to be patient. >> I don't know if you see the irony in and of just that. like I need to be patient faster and I'm going to try. It's actually a result if you if you lay the fruit of the spirit from Galatians 5 over John 15 >> and Jesus's invitation to abide in me and I will abide in you. Apart from me you can do nothing. It is as we are tapped into the vine that we begin to bear fruit. And so the focus does not need to be on well like Chandler would say this is not like begrudging submission and white knuckle behavior modification. This is grow close to Jesus and then watch what he begins to do in and through you and that's a fundamental difference you know. All right very good I like it. Let's go on to the next one here. This is from a forging tableler. This is from Eric Browning. As an entrepreneur, I've spent my whole life identifying and solving problems in order to bring value to people's lives in heaven. Are there going to be problems to solve? Uh I you know, so like what I think is irrelevant. So I immediately just try to think has the Bible ever talked about something like that? So Adam did have a problem to solve in Eden in that the garden was not yet subdued and cultivated. So um tasks to do yes problems like we kind of have problems because of brokenness. No and somehow like I believe there will be you know sport and game and fun and those kinds of things. Man I was uh about a month ago I got to figure out how to work this into a sermon. About a month ago I was in um Amsterdam and I went to the Corey Timbon Museum. It's just her house where the hiding place was where they would hide Jews behind the wall while the Nazis were coming to get them. And the sweet sweet lady that was doing our our little tour um she was an atheist teacher and then she got sick with some kind of she didn't some kind of like neurological physiological thing where she couldn't stand on her feet all day any day every day. So she couldn't be a teacher anymore. Somehow through that, somebody leads her to Christ and being a tour guide for the Corey Timboom Museum makes a lot of sense because she does like a 45minute tour and then she's kind of done, right? As she's doing the tour, partly this is a Corey Timbon quote. She just says this, "God doesn't have problems. He has plans." I don't know how I've never heard that before in my life. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That all right. So Browning in heaven, God still got plans. There's just no problems. So it's not so much a problem to be solved, but he will have task and things to accomplish. And somehow that will be way better than how you get that little jolt from whatever fixing some company. It's going to be better than that. And yet you still get to flex that like leadership muscle. Well, speaking of flexing, you said there's going to be sports in heaven. So are we all going to be like jacked fast to be able to jump high? Like is that is that all like or are we going to still have our limitations that we have here on earth? >> Glorified bodies is what it says. So I don't know. I mean Jesus is passing through walls and stuff. So some there's going to be some sport we don't know about. But you know what I mean. It's [clears throat] um you know the description in Revelation 20 and 21 is a lot more of the things that we see on earth than what we have been told in Renaissance paintings that heaven is going to be. And so it's going to be at least that. So whatever that jolt is that you get from winning a jiu-jitsu match, there's going to be something better than that to the glory of God. It's going to be at least that but better. You heard it here first. There will be jiu-jitsu tournaments in heaven. Everybody better start training. All right. Here's what here's a question. It's a little rough, but um so this is from me, but um we you and I have talked about babies being saved and we've talked about different people's like theologies and different people's ideas and doctrine about babies being saved. And when I say babies, I mean like you know 6 months old, 18 months old, that type of thing. And I was thinking about in the context of the story we heard out of the UK this year where an 18-month old baby boy was raped to death by a gay couple that was trying to adopt this baby, right? I mean, uh, the fact that these two men are still alive, uh, is is indicative of the rot of the western law system because those people should be hanging from the neck and their bodies should be left out there for the rest of the public to see it until they completely decay into bones. But I thought about this, you know, in in terms of like election, and you should see my inbox. I get tons of comments and theories and questions about election every time it's brought up and every time we talk about it here or on the forging table. But I thought about that boy, Joby, and I was like, "Okay, what if that boy was not elect?" So basically, it's a baby. It's raped to death by two pedophilic demonic men, and then it gets to spend eternity in hell. Now, again, that's an anecdote that you're trying to apply to a doctrine, uh, which you're applying to the gospel, and there's God's sovereignty all the way through the question even, right? But I just thought about it in terms of that one baby. Is that it? That was his life that he got to experience being raped to death as an infant that couldn't protect itself and now it gets to spend eternity in hellfire. So just help me kind of think through that because I know I'm not the only one that's kind of stumbled on that before. >> Yeah. I mean really smart people um like Dr. Piper will take uh Romans chapter 1 and conclude that the uh innocent not perfect but innocent baby who has never willfully chosen sin that that baby goes to heaven just like every aborted child every miscarried child. So an a brutal response is does how you die determine where where you spend eternity? And the answer is absolutely no. Right? It's salvation is the Lord's. >> So as I I get the angst around and the emotion in asking of that question, but the theological reality is is again this is a woman will make your head explode. God didn't have problems. He's got plans. And somehow that little baby boy um hope I mean I don't know how much cognitively an 18-month-old knows what's going on but obviously well the Bible will say that that as awful as that is will be light and momentary as compared to what he experiences in the presence of God. And so that that would be my answer, you know, and and what you can't do is you can't take all the verses about election, which there are many, many, many, many, many, and stand on them as if those are the only verses that are in the Bible. Like there is all of Romans 1 that talks about how people are without excuse because the fingerprints of the law are God on every human heart. And by the time you get to chapter 2, it talks about the kindness of God leads us to repentance. Well, if you are like, you know, how are you held accountable by a just judge if you've never even cognitively had the ability to to reject God? That that's the piper line that leads him to the character and nature of God is those kids are in heaven just like every aborted child. Okay, very good. Well, I got to speed up a little bit. We got a few more questions. Uh, first one or this one's from a donor named Zach. In marriage as a man, how do you balance a high sex drive and needing it more than my wife and also serving her when it comes to sex and marriage? >> Yeah, there's no balance. I hate this for you cuz you know, I mean, this is most of the guys that I talk to, right? It's not like she's beating the door down going, "Will you please give it up some more?" I mean, this is an opportunity for you to lay down your wants and needs cuz you're not going to die uh for hers. However, in a healthy marriage, there's a really positive I mean, negotiation is the only word I can think of. Um, and I would do that. I would say you you realize your desires, my desires, let's just say number of times a week far exceed yours. Can you help me help you be a winner here? Like, can you help me? What are some things I can do without strings attached? Help me to love you better. I I want to relieve the pressure. And is there at least will you at least give me some kind of understanding in your mind that in order for us to be connected as we should there's there's at least sort of like can we agree that this many I mean you if you get an accountant score it's over but in a healthy dialogue between two people who have desires and needs um it's really good to talk about those things openly and honestly you know and I do You know, the amount of pressure that we put on our wives and what sucks is it's godly pressure. I mean, first Corinthians is like, "Women, do not deny your husband of his conjugal rights. Your body is not your own." If you've ever quoted that verse, though, you're screwed. You're out. You lost. And so, this isn't a game for you to win. This is two people that love and adore one another that are submitted to Christ trying to say, "Hey, here's some things that I desire, and you are my only source for that, and can you help me out?" Now, how can I help you want to say yes to those things? And honestly, I've been married 25 years. That is a constant conversation. And then and then and then also honestly, man, especially if you guys that are a little bit older listening and the amount of hormones that change in the life cycle of a woman and even a monthly cycle, you're not even talking to the same physiological makeup at different times in your marriage. And so this the best thing is constant conversations here with no demands but honest sharing you know. >> Well the one thing I would add to that is because I talk a lot to a lot of these men too that are just frustrated and you know again I have to take it with a grain of salt cuz I'm getting one side of the story but women who are basically denying the conjugal rights to their husband because they can because they feel you know infused with the spirit of feminism and well I I can be my own person and you know he doesn't control me and he's not the boss of me and he doesn't own my body. This is my body. It's a derivative of my body by choice. And the thing I would just tell you guys, I'm so sorry. That freaking sucks. Like, it absolutely completely sucks. But sometimes marriage sucks in certain areas. And I'm sure if we talk to her, she's going to have some certain things about you that she's like, "Yeah, this absolutely and completely sucks." But I mean, I hate that for you guys, but I hate to >> Now, that attitude that you just described, though, that needs to be disciplined and discipled by a godly older woman in the church saying, "Are you dumb?" No. No. No, y'all don't have a body anymore. Don't Have you not read 1 Corinthians 6:7? You have one body. The two of you have become one flesh. And the Bible also says husbands are not allowed to deny their wife their conjugal rights. Okay? Unless for a short time of agreement on prayer and then get back to it. So, but that's that's often best not coming from the person that wants a desired outcome. It's often best coming from some godly woman. Now, what I find when I'm coun, you know, talking to couples or whatever is it's not some woman standing on a sinful ideology like you just talked about, it's a legit godly woman and just legitimately their physical tank is full at about a third the rate of their husband. But there but everybody loves Jesus and everybody understands their role as husband and wife. That's I mean just you know constant love, affection, devotion and negotiation is a really really good thing. All right, I hate to ask this question and tell you to give me a quick answer, but I got two questions left. One will take you not that long at all and one, you know, maybe. But essentially, this is a guy that's a youth pastor. He's at a church that does not have an elder board or deacons. And when he's brought it up before, this is a donor named Matt. when he's brought it up before, he's been like basically rejected very heavy-handedly, like, "How dare you question the senior pastor? How dare you question his integrity?" You know, why why do you think we need this? Those types of things. And he's wondering if he needs to leave. And there are people that are at churches that either don't have elder boards or maybe they have women on their elder boards or different things like that and they're like, "Should I leave?" What would be your advice to someone who's working in a ministry like that or attending a church like that? Well, I mean those are the questions like if if you can't submit to that authority, then you need to get out from under it, but it is not your job to be changing it. Um I don't think you necessarily need to leave until there's a reason to, you know. Um and I would have a lot more questions. There's got there's some sort of leadership structure. There's some kind of organizational structure. And uh I hear a lot of youth pastors cuz they listen to all the same guys, you know, and it's all us reform guys that everybody's listening to right now. Oh, we all have a very similar like organizational leadership structure that we get from the scriptures. Other churches have the same structure. They just call everything different names. And so, you got to make sure that your your church isn't just playing a semantics game and they have a board. They just don't call them elders or that, you know what I mean? >> So, I would want to dig in there. But, if it is a benevolent dictatorship, as long as that guy's making all the right decisions, I don't know why you would leave. But the likelihood that it's going to go bad is probably higher in that kind of place. >> Definitely. >> It fundamentally comes down to this. If you don't trust your leadership, then what in the world are you doing working there? Then don't take the paycheck. >> Yeah, that's right. All right, last question of the day. So, this might be a a mind buster, but I'm not exactly sure how I would answer it. So, if a man has no arms, but he has a gun in his pocket, is he armed or unarmed? [laughter] [gasps] >> I think he's unarmed and dangerous. That's it. >> Unarmed and dangerous. You heard it here first, guys. Joby, appreciate it. Anything else you want to get off your chest? >> No, sir. Thank you. >> All right. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undantton.life. That's info@undon.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpeta, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. >> [music]