Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Joby Martin, you are a lot of things, but one thing that you are almost never, >> as it pertains to me, is late. You're almost never late. Like, you have so many things going on. You have 84 assistants that keep your calendar. You've preached 78 times so far this month, and we're only a few days into it, but you're never late. And then I have to be told by one of your assistants, I don't even know her name. She's just some stranger that sends me a message, and she just goes, "Sorry, he's running a few minutes behind. He's talking to some slappy named Matt Chandler." No one even knows who that person is, but apparently he's important enough to make you late. Thanks a lot for that. >> No problem. Uh yeah, Matt's in town uh promoting his book, Becoming Like Jesus. Everybody should buy it, read it. It's an unpacking of uh the biatitudes and what it [clears throat] looks like to be sanctified by Jesus. So yeah, man. Sorry. Sorry for being late. >> Yeah. >> But hey, Chandler says hello. >> Oh, that's great. That's great. Don't worry. I already sent him a message with uh some expletives in it. Just kidding. Just kidding. Guys out there on the internet. Uh >> he would like to go ahead and that role that you're already threat always threaten him with. He'd like to take it up like in the next couple of days. >> Oh, great. Yeah, let me let me deal with a 6'5 uh guy with daddy issues uh whenever I have three of my four limbs currently operational. Yeah, it sounds like a great [laughter] idea. Um but [clears throat] I will say this as well for that book so far this year. Best book I've read so far. I've uh I've read some stinkers this year and then I've read some that have been pretty good. But that one is uh the number one book in the clubhouse so far for 2026. >> So let's get into the questions for today. Again guys, if you want your question to be on the Ask a Pastor, you have to be one of our monthly donors or you have to be one of my uh one of my guys, one of my Foxhole guys, one of my forging table guys. But I also intersperse questions from me as well. Here's the first question. This one's for me. And this is just an outworking of the frustration of similar [clears throat] to how Chandler talks about the the issues with doing ministry in the South, right? being in Texas, everybody is just born a Christian, right? I've talked about country music theology at Nauseum. >> But man, when we talk about one more and so that's that's y'all's language. Howton's, you know, picked up on that. Other people have used, you know, differences like that. But when you're thinking about your one more, that one person that if they came to Christ, it would just mean the world to you. When I think about my one more, I'm evangelizing to someone who knows stuff about Jesus, but doesn't know Jesus, right? They they can tell you around what age he was when he died. They can tell you where you can find them in the Bible. They [clears throat] can tell you, "Hey, Jesus Christ died on a cross for your sins. They know stuff. They know the back of the baseball card, but they don't know Jesus." And so I'm having trouble trying to convince somebody that [clears throat] grew up in the South, got baptized when they were a kid, listens to country music, all the country music, theology things that nobody, you are not just, you know, you're not just a mistaker that, you know, was fortunate enough to be born on the precious red clay of Oklahoma, so you get to go to heaven when you die. You're a wretched, black-hearted sinner, and Jesus has to be your savior and your Lord. So what's your advice to me and others that have the same issue? So, [clears throat] I've been kind of wrestling through this lately. I am I mean I have by all accounts the gift of evangelism. I I I lead a lot of people in church Christ. I lead people in airplanes and like seemingly random people, Walmart, wherever. Okay. But one of the things I've become convinced of lately, the Bible has always said this, that the one thing I cannot do is convict somebody of sin. So, when I sit down on an airplane, all right, and I open up my Bible and people look at it, I'm kind I kind of just do it. One, I got a sermon to write because I'm busy. And it's a great way to engage. And if they're like, man, like they don't they just they don't know that they need a savior. I actually have nothing to offer them cuz the thing that you need to be saved is need. Like, bro, if you don't know that you're lost and I try to show you a map, you're like, I don't even need this. And >> that's a work of the spirit of God. I think the I think evidence of a of the beginning of the wooing of the spirit, the effectual call of Christ, these are theological terms, the regeneration of heart, typically begins with a conviction of sin, not feel bad that I did something bad, but an actual conviction that I am separated from God and I can't do that. I think this is why Jesus starts his entire teaching ministry with blessed are the poor in spirit. And so if you'll run more if the if the Lord doesn't open his eyes to the bankrupt condition of his soul, then there's there's no amount of cure that you have for him if he doesn't know he has the disease of sin and separation from God. Now, I do think one of the ways that I have tried to use to help people see that when they're like, "Oh, well, I think I'm a good person." I'm like, "Hold on one second." Okay, God's standard isn't good. It's perfection. Jesus says, "Be perfect as I am perfect." So, let's even just let's put aside the laws of God for just a second. Like, you know, do you keep the ten commandments? Well, of course not. Let's be honest. Can you keep your commandments? Like, how many things have you promised you would never do? And for whatever reason, that has helped people understand, wow, I really am broken. Like, I can't even if if I made up my own list of commandments that I had to keep in order to get into heaven, I've broken all of mine. I said I'm not a liar, but I lie. I said I wouldn't drink that again, and I did. I said I wouldn't call her back, and I did. What is wrong with me? And when it's not until people get to that place, well, then will they be willing to turn their lives over to Jesus. When I think about it right now, I mean, recently, I mean, we're recording this about a month before it comes out, but recently Theo Vaughn was very vulnerable on his podcast, and I think you even mentioned, you know, blessed are the poor in spirit. I think about one of the most impactful interviews of my entire career, which is where Mike Rund came into my studio, um, you know, previously an ardent atheist, uh, a militant, argumentative atheist, and then professes Christ as savior and lord, sitting across from me. And you know, this was after getting a random text about what's the best Bible translation to read and this was not. >> Dude, that one was epic. Epic. >> Yeah. I mean, for >> the followup was epic. >> Well, here's the thing. Okay. Go ahead. So, I went back and listened to the first one after I listened to the recent one, you know. And um but you didn't I mean you were clear you were I think there would have been a bunch of people if I'm guessing a bunch of like you know hyperchristian people that were critical of that first interview cuz you didn't overpress it. >> Yep. >> You know but what it looked like to me is that you just played the long game. You planted some seeds. You pointed to the gospel. You ask qu in the first one you ask [clears throat] questions about his life. Hey man, how's it working for you? >> Yeah. >> So, how's your, you know, you're the lord of your own life. Cool. How's that going? Then what begins to happen is what the the spirit starts working on him in his private life. He knows everybody, doesn't he? He knows everybody. I mean, he knows all so many people and he doesn't text randos. He's like, I'm going to talk to that guy. I think this Bible thing might be something. And and then by the time so your follow-up interview which was years later and you go I mean that's where you just clearly had him articulate his faith and he believes trust puos that Jesus is the propitiation for his sin. Well you could have screwed it up on the first one even though salvation is the Lord's if you were trying to appease all of your hardcore Christian audience instead of actually meet that guy where he was. I I think that's a beautiful picture of what actual evangelism is. >> Well, and because I think, you know, we we get into this, we've seen Ray Comfort do his thing where he walks up on a boardwalk and, you know, he asks people the questions, he goes through the Ten Commandments, and then they start crying, they become a Christian. And yeah, if you go back to when I was on his show, this is before he had ever appeared on mine, but when I was on his show, I mean, the comments I got from Christians were so negative. Uh, like, Kyle, have you ever even heard of Christian apologetics? you should have said this when he said this and this is how you should have pivoted to the gospel and you never and so first of all morons on the internet uh don't you think he and I had other conversations that weren't happening in front of a camera with lights above us >> and Ray comfort God bless his ministry dude I mean he's doing what Jesus told him to do but do you think he shows every interaction that he ever has in his life right I mean you know we're watching this highlight reel and so >> I mean if you think my whole life is just with sermons I preach. Dude, I'm going to tell you, I'm a pretty freaking great Christian on stage. There's not a lot of sinning happening up there, but I have a whole entire life. So, to that, you you want to you want to like salvation is the Lord's and he is sovereign over the ends and the means and he has for his own glory and our own sanctification invited us into the process. So when you begin to see your you trying to share your faith in partnership with what God might be doing in that person's life, it changes things. And so to to the point where I I would tell I if I were you talking to your Red Clay Oklahoma thinks he's a Christian guy, Lord, I'm begging that you would convict him of his sin. I'm begging you, you'd bless him or break him or put something in his life or he encounters you. And then when he has questions and he needs a witness, a firsthand testimony of what Christ can do, then maybe I could come along and share whatever I know. But God, I need you to do something. >> Well, in terms of us, uh, we don't need to be looking in in terms of salvation. We need to be looking in terms of positioning. And what I mean by that is when I was invited into Mike's, >> let's just call it his home. I'm in his studio, but this is his residence, right? >> Yeah. >> That was my position. I was a guest >> and I didn't want to put my dirty shoes on the couch, right? And I wanted to share some things. I wanted to be clear in what I needed to say, but felt no need to press. And this was before I had the language, you know, around, you know, salvation and how people are saved and all the different things. But if God is sovereign to save, he's going to take care of business and I just have to do what I'm called to do, what I'm commanded to do. And then over three [clears throat] conversations on my show, faith kept coming up. And again, I think it was that third time he was on my show, he literally said, "Kyle, I got to be honest. I don't know why the f you care so much about whether or not I believe in God." And as opposed to taking the bait and getting into a screaming match over freaking Zoom, I just said it's because I love you, Mike. And because it's like, and ultimately, I'm very binary in my thinking. It's like, look, if you're right and I'm wrong, we're both just highly evolved chimps that somehow figured out language, pants, and fire. And here we are wasting our time until we eventually go into the ground and become worm food. And I will have wasted more time and money on this fake Jesus thing than you as an atheist. But we both end up in the same place. But I'm like, brother, if I'm right and you're wrong, it's eternity. and I love you so much to tell you that, you know, this is a zigg versus zag situation and there's only two options for where you where you're going to end up in eternity. And again, when he's sitting across, we had had breakfast that morning, Joby, and we kind of talk about a few things and and then he gets on the podcast. We're over an hour in. I have no idea if he's a Christian or not. He kept kind of talking around it, kind of circling the drain. And then I thought I asked him a clear question and he didn't give me a clear answer. And then finally, I was like, >> just time out. Wait, wait a minute, Mike. are you saying that you put your faith in Christ? And his he was so firm in the affirmative. He was so firm in his answer. And I was just like I almost I almost like melted into a puddle because it's just like, you know, you talk about a guy that's going to be on, you know, your your top list of guys that'll never convert. Like he his name would have been pretty close to the top of that list because of how ardent and how decided he was. But in all those previous interactions, Joby, he wasn't poor in spirit and something changed in him. Well, a couple of things. One, CS Lewis says, um, either Christ is of infinite importance or of no importance, but the one thing he cannot be is moderately important. >> Yeah. >> And that's what Oklahoma and North Florida and Georgia needs to hear. You know, um the last time Howardan was here at 11:22, he preached about evangelism. This was really good. He's like, we we've got to quit thinking about it as like either like our role in evangelism. Yes, people are either lost or saved. But what it's better, it may be better to think of it on a continuum. Like if zero is going to hell and 10 is you get saved, when you meet them, they might be a one. >> Like they're not interested at all. And maybe your role is to help them double click and get up to a four >> cuz you don't know what the next conversation and the next conversation is. Um, you know, Paul says this in Corinthians. He's like, "Look, we all got our part. Apollos does his part. I do my part. Some people sew the seed, some people water it, and some people reap the harvest. Hey guys, real quick. So, I remember back in high school, I was training with these guys, and they all got super jacked. But they were training and using these supplements that they were buying online. And a lot of them had crazy side effects. These were not good things. There's no telling what all was in these supplements. And so, I've always kind of been scared about what supplements I'm going to put in my body. And I decided when I do start taking supplements, I want to make sure I'm using products that are certifiably clean and also using only high quality ingredients. And that's why I want to remind you guys that I have started taking and that we are partnered with Jaco Fuel. So Jaco Fuel is Jaco Willinks Americanbased supplement company. So what are they known for and what are some of my favorite products that they make? They make a lot of whey protein powder. 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Guys, if you take your health and wellness seriously, then you simply cannot afford to put cheap and inconsistent and dirty supplements inside your body. Try Joo Fuel out today by going to jofuel.com. That's jofuel.com. Use the promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. Again, that's jofuel.com. promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. Well, and I think it's important as well. I mean, you and I have a public ministry and of, you know, varying degrees with, you know, different uh different vertical markets that we're in or whatever. And every now and then I'll get an email or a DM from somebody that says because of your ministry, because of your podcast, because of the Daily Blade, because I heard you speak live, I am now a Christian. And I'm not going to quibble with their wording and say, "Hey, [clears throat] bro, that I that wasn't me." Like, you know, I was just the conduit. Or, hey, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to say praise God, like stay attached thing. But at the same time, it's like, how many guys have had that experience that didn't send me a DM? And so, again, my role >> is to do what I'm told to do, right? And whether I'm handing someone a Bible as a gift. I mean, last last uh, you know, Christmas season, I know a lot of people kind of leave out, you know, little Debbies and Gatorades for all the UPS and FedEx drivers that are working crazy hours and around the clock. So, we did that. We left some Christmas tree cakes. Praise the Lord. But also, we had little ESV Bibles, those like cheap paperback ones. We had we just had a stack of them right there, right? And so, >> who knows what that is going to lead to. I I'll tell you what, we didn't have a FedEx driver knock on the door and melt and cry and say, "I want to give my my life to Jesus. I just don't know how to do it. Can you please lead me, oh sovereign one?" Like, that that didn't happen. But what if that was just the the conduit or the or the or the seed that was planted in that person to like maybe I should open this thing, right? You know, I've been reading Harry Potter and maybe I need to stop reading about softcore witchcraft and actually start reading something that actually happened as if it happened. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, the other thing that uh I was really proud of you on like Mike had great respect for you and the Bible says that we should conduct our lives as believers in such a way that we have a good reputation with the outsiders. And a lot of times we burn the bridges to all the outsiders so that we get applause from all the people that are already going to heaven because you're like, "Haha, I got him. I burned him. I'm going to clip this thing and show everybody how I'm right and they're wrong." But apparently from the previous times you guys have met, he had been tuning in a little bit. He had been watching you and you didn't even know it. He'd been seeing how you were >> conducting yourself. He also knew that you had a good a good reputation with a bunch of operators. You know, I don't know he's who he's talking to, but you know, that that's been a part of your world for a while. And all of that was evangelism. Not just did you respond exactly, you know, the way that that the hardcore Christian would want you to respond to one conversation, but it was the words. It was the it was the declaration of the gospel and the demonstration of the gospel. And both are are needed. And that's why I tell people like we have all this stuff now about people be I'm going to be authentic. I'm going to be real. I'm going to be raw. I'm going to say the thing and all that and then people see you when you're not online and they're like there there's there's a chasm between your online personality and who you are in real life. And it's always funny when I talk to Dominion guys, you know, when they do the meetup, whenever they come out here to Oklahoma and we, you know, do a couple of days in W world and all that, they're like they're shocked that I actually do the stuff that I say I'm going to do. Like we work out and they're like, "Oh my god, like he actually works out really, really hard. This is insane." Oh my gosh. He had >> 40 people show up to hang out at a shop that are all like, you know, forging table guys, foxhole guys, training guys, forging, you know, uh, Sunday school guys. He's like, they're all just connected in comm. He's actually doing the thing. And and I'm like, I I'm surprised you're surprised. I'm like, cuz to me, I'm like, it's not worth saying on the show if I don't mean it. So, even if you don't like the opinion, which no one's ever disagreed with anything that I've ever said on the show, but if you don't like my opinion on something, I can guarantee you that I fervently and honestly believe it. >> Well, here's the thing. If you like if you live a life of integrity, if you're an integrated person, you don't have to always try to convince everybody you're being authentic. You just don't have to say that. >> And if you find yourself constantly having to put on display, I'm just being authentic. I I mean it who are you trying to convince? >> That's not currency. People People don't understand that's not currency. I'm authentic. Well, if you're authentically a like that's not a good thing. If you're authentically wrong all the time, I could give a crap about your authenticity and consistency if you're consistently stupid. >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So, yeah. Yeah, you are a lot of things, but you are really you. >> What are some of those things? Just kidding. We're not gonna go to that question. Uh we're just gonna skip past that. But hey, uh, we went really long on the first question, but I'm not Hey, Matt Chandler made a slate. We're just going to keep going. So, you can let your assistants know. We're just going to keep going. This is a very important question from a Dominion guy. This is from Mitch. So, it's it's going to take a while to set up, but this is very important. I've recently gone through some very difficult life-threatening health battles that resulted in me experiencing a new level of intimate depth in my relationship with the Lord. Because of this, I view this physical infirmity as a gift from God. I resonate with the scripture like Genesis 32. when the Lord approaches and wrestles with Jacob, touches his hip and causes him to walk with a limp. In 2 Corinthians 12, when Paul speaks of the thorn in his flesh that the Lord refuses to remove, which keeps him from boasting because of this, he says he actually boasts in his infirmities that the power of Christ may rest upon him. But I also can't ignore the many miraculous healings at the hands of Jesus in response to faith. I know some believe there's absolutely no room for any form of infirmity in the believer's life if faithful prayer is part of the equation. Although this has not been my experience. Question. Does the Lord impose physical or mental infirmities upon his people for our good and his glory? Or rather than imposing, maybe he allows and then uses it. Or perhaps physical or mental infirmities are not imposed or allowed by God at all and we simply trick ourselves into accepting them as gifts to justify our lack of faith. So Joby, a lot of questions in there, but obviously this guy has really gone through it and I can't really share any other details. Hopefully we can do that on the show later, but go with that. >> It's a great question. It's not a unique question. It's been asked for thousands of years now. >> Uh I'm just coming out like you mentioned with an interview with Chandler talking about his book Becoming Jesus, Becoming Like Jesus. And in that he talks about his battle with cancer and he talks about the people that would come to him and either they would they would pray if you get your faith meter up big enough then you will be healed. Do you have enough faith? Or some people came and said, "What sort of besetting sin is in your life that is causing this?" Or especially like his hardcore reformed buddies would just be like, "Well, thy will be done." And none of those things were helpful. Um I know the language is important and I definitely appreciate the way he used a bunch of different verbs to ascribe God's role in this. like is God I mean cuz in that that uh thorn of the flesh thing it says that God's handing out demons to people. Put that in your theological pipe and smoke it. That'll confuse the heck out of you. It's just what it says. And like I've told you a million times, I'm not trying to tell you what I think. I just want to tell you what the word says. >> Here's what I would say the word says. No matter what the pain the cause of the pain that you're going through is whether it's an attack of the de of a demon whether it's your own stupid choices whether it's somebody else's sin against you or whether it's just collateral damage of the fall. All of them pass through the sovereign hands of the almighty God. And Spurgeon says the sovereignty of God is the pillow on which the Christian in pain sleeps. Because what I will tell you, if you listen to Shane and Shane song on YouTube, though he slay me, and it's got the little Piper quotes in there, >> what I can tell you, because of the sovereignty of God, it's not meaningless. It's not whether it's a car wreck or cancer, whether it happened to you or or it's an attack of the enemy or if it's just the broken world, it's not meaningless. That God is at work for like he's he's preparing a glory for you. And the first half of the question where he says, "I've never been more intimate with Christ." Kind of reminds me of James that he is taking joy when he's facing trials of many kinds because God is doing something in this brother, preparing him like creating perseverance and those kinds of things. That is the biblical stance towards it. To say that nobody had infirmity. Um, dude, that's like a word of faith. Uh, overrealized esquetology and you're proof texting some verses out of context that don't mean what you think it means because I mean all of the disciples save one were martyed. Um, Paul himself dealt with infirmity and you don't think he had enough faith. So the if he he just needs to reread up to where he asked the question and that is his answer that God is carrying him along rightly and he needs to know that even no matter how bad it sucks and I ain't saying it don't suck one day it will seem light and momentary as compared to his experience with Christ. And not only that, it's not meaningless in that God is using the darkest days of his life to help other people see the light of Christ. Because if if the if the gospel was follow Jesus in his cotton candy and Cadillacs from now on, then people their actual God would be cotton candy and Cadillacs and Jesus would be a mean to an end. But when you bump into a brother like this or when Chandler's on his face puking his guts out from his ninth round of chemo and radiation and you look at that and that guy is still walking faithfully with the Lord with a peace that transcends understanding. That's the loudest declaration of the goodness of God because that's what we want to learn the secret of being content in every situation. >> Well, I can tell you this goes back to the first thing with Mike. You never know who's paying attention and you never know what they're picking up because uh you know a two-day trip to hang out with me turned into a nine-week stay in the hospital. Uh surgeon is a non-believer but he he's hearing about faith and he sees the Bible out in his room and every time he got bad news him and his family seem to cling to faith. Um, I [clears throat] brought my foxhole, a bunch of guys that didn't know this man to his hospital bed and we laid hands on him and prayed and I put you on speaker phone and you kicked it off and we prayed and you know who walked in in the middle of all that? A nurse. Okay. Is she a believer? What did she think we were doing? Performing a seance? No. Like she she heard us praying and doing all that. You have no idea what the downstream [clears throat] benefits are of your pain. It's the same thing when I see a horrible story like I talked about that FedEx driver that kidnapped that little girl and like strangled her to death and all that and you would like how could a good God allow something like that to happen to such an innocent little child. To say something like that, you're assuming that there is no possibility of good that could come from that girl's death. You can't argue that her death was good. But you to sit there and argue that there can't be good that comes from a situation like that would be foolish because you just obviously can't see you can't see through a prison that shows you all the different potentialities of what we're even talking about. So we got to keep this. Go ahead. >> There's one little part in Romans 8:28 that that I want to point people to. God is at work in all things for the good of those that love him and are called according to his purpose. So if it ain't good, he ain't done. >> Amen. All right, let's get to the next one here. This is from Zach. He is a donor. Zack, thank you so much for being a monthly donor. What is Joby's take on having a racially diverse congregation and a diverse church staff for the church that God has entrusted him to help lead? Should churches seek to be racially diverse, especially people that are seen on the stage to have a healthy cultural mix of people? Uh, this kind of goes back to the last question just a little bit and you got to go means and ends. Okay. So, um, of course, like the book of Ephesians says that the gospel has torn down the dividing wall of hostility and it was talking about between Jews and Gentiles. There was a lot of racial hostility going on there. And like, you know, 11:22, we are a movement for all people to discover and deepen relationship with Jesus. But that the the the racial makeup of our church needs to be a result of the gospel. And if you elevate second things to first things, you get in trouble. You get in trouble. So, we want to interview and hire and train whoever and anybody and all the people. And there's only just certain people that live in and around Jacksonville. And also, um, people got to pay attention what they mean by diversity, you know. Um, just out of curiosity, I I had our HR department run like a diversity like, hey, do an audit on our staff and our staff is actually not just white, black, but you know, there's more than two races. I don't know if people in the south have ever realized that. Often times when people talk about that, they just are only talking about two different races. Um but but the diversity of our staff is is actually a little bit higher than what's represented in the communities where our campuses are. And so it should be a natural outflow of it. But be very very careful man. If you start hiring people as a means to an end, you're not actually treating them like the image bearer of God. They they are. If you're just discipling people and then some people feel called and to step into ministry and then you disciple people regardless of race and you're doing a good job of ministering to all the people in your communities then these things will happen as they should. But if you take second things and make it the most important thing everywhere I've seen that done eventually you begin to lose the gospel. You begin to lose the most important things. And so this is like root and fruit. So you want to be rooted in the word of God, rooted in the person work of Jesus Christ, and then the fruit of that will be what God wants for your church. That's how I would say it. When I'll say this, the first time that Chandler was on the show, I asked him about his comments at MLK50 where he very famously, and again, as he said, if you've ever said it, you've always said it. Even if you disagree with you, you know, it's, oh, this is what you said. But he said that he would hire, depending on the context, he would hire a black seven over an Anglo 8, depending on the racial context and makeup of what he's saying. And of all the sermons that man has preached, he said on my show, that's the one he wants back. That's where he feels like he went a little bit too far down the critical race theory side. He actually repented to his own congregation for some of the things that he had said and some of the the arguments that he had made. And part of the thing about it as well is I look at my community like my church is in East Edmund, Oklahoma, like demographically incredibly white, incredibly affluent, incredibly educated, incredibly all the things. And so if our church, Faith Bible Church, which they they wouldn't and haven't done this, if they were to all of a sudden have a diversity initiative that came up with some sort of a quota of all the different shades of people that need to be in our church in order for the church to be healthy, it'd be like, well, that's just not our context. Like imagine going to, you know, one of the churches that's under fire right now in Nigeria and being like, "WHERE'S ALL THE MEXICANS?" LIKE THAT WOULD BE THAT would be absurd because it doesn't fit the cultural context. Now, if you are keeping people out because of the shade of their skin, obviously we're dealing with a sin of racism and, you know, we're violating James 2 and and we're separating people off and all those different things. But go ahead. >> So, but when so what's happening here at 1122, if you were to go to different campuses, uh, you would see more diverse and less diverse. you would see. But but also not just racially, but like like one of the things I do want to pay attention to is like nobody's aging out of being a worship leader cuz they're not young and fun anymore. >> Yeah. >> So we got some older guys and older girls and some younger guys and younger girls and now we're, you know, our church is finally getting a little bit of age to us. We're 13 years old. So the 13-year-old kids that were growing up in the youth group are now 26 year olds and a bunch of them are on stage because, you know, they have a gift of worship. And what what so what's beginning to happen is or what has been happening is we're we're probably more racially diverse than we've ever been and growing in that area. But it's just a byproduct of making disciples. It wasn't like we drew a target around a second like we didn't draw a target around a fruit and go after it. We tried to just deepen our roots with Christ and then allow him to flourish his church. And I think that's the healthy way to approach it. >> All right. Very good. This next question is for me. Obviously, uh I have no problems calling out people that I feel like are wolves and sheep's clothing. I did so very prominently, I guess, recently with James Tarico, who's running for the United States Senate down there in Texas. I've talked about specific pastors that I think are heretics or or, you know, apostates or or whatever the thing is. But I'm I'm finding because again, I'm not a big nuance guy. It's going to be a shock to everyone that heard me just say that now. Uh but there are some people where Joby, it seems hard to discern. Wait, is this a wolf in sheep's clothing or is this someone that's just a milk pastor, >> right? And so, uh, you know, very prominently, and you know, I use examples. You don't like using examples, so you don't have to refer specifically to the person I'm going to bring up, but I was having a discussion with one of your campus pastors about Steven Ferdick and, you know, [clears throat] talking about his some of the things that he said, some of the things that he's done, blah blah blah. And this person was defending Ferdick to the hilt. They're like, "You're wrong about him. like he's good in this way and in that way and oh man if you just listen to him the way that I did and I was like I can't believe I'm even having this discussion right now in the lobby of the church of 11:22 but ultimately if we had to break down where we ended up I was this is a this guy's a wolf in sheep's clothing and he was like maybe at worst he's a milk pastor and there's plenty of guys that can kind of do that I've talked about my experience with Craig Rochelle at Life Church it's like when you're there for 12 years and you're just served a milk every week it's just like okay well eventually you have to move on into the meat and potatoes of of theology and all of that and people can quibble with that and and make make different adjustments and you know add their own perspective to it. But >> have you listened to Craig lately? >> I honestly have not. No. >> I I want to I want to challenge you and everybody he just did a series called Jesus always where he talks about Christophanes in the Old Testament. >> This would have been in April and May. >> Yes. I want you to listen to the uh Jacob wrestles the Lord and Shad I think Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego thrown in the fire and and tell me if you think that's meat, if that's not meat and potatoes. And honestly, I had a I had a conversation with Craig a year and a half ago after he graciously sat down with me. I had a 10 million questions because if anybody knows about how to handle momentum God sends your way, that dude does. He was incredibly gracious. And then at the end of it, he said, "What do you think I should know?" And I was like, "Bro, I got a lot of opinions." And he said, "When I was coming up, nobody ever asked me what I thought. So I want to ask you, what do you think I should work on?" And I and I basically said, "Hey, look, man. The day of the secret sensitive thing's over. I get it. I understand it. But man, your best sermon is over. You can just throw heat, you know?" And he he just shared, "I 100% agree. I think Christian cool is over and this is where I intend to go." So, >> it kind of goes back to my answer. >> Sure. >> Um, which I haven't given yet. And it's um only time will tell is is the actual answer. It's, you know, you can kind of prognosticate about folks. >> So, uh Jesus is fighting with the Pharisees. I think it's Matthew 10, might be 11. I think it's 10. No, I don't know. 10 or 11. Uh yeah, it's 11. And he was like, "Look, boys. John the Baptist came. He was a tea totler. You said he was possessed by a demon. I come eating and drinking and you say I'm a glutton and a and a drunk. In other words, no matter what we do, there's going to be critics. And then he's got this line that says um basically what he talks about wisdom. And basically what he's saying is you just got to outlast it. So let's see like there are many many many many things that Ferdict has said and done that cause me some serious pause. You know there's other individual sermons that I think are I mean he's he's an unbelievably gifted preacher >> clearly. Yeah. >> I've never seen a dude do so much with such little material in my entire life. Like take three words and build a whole series around it and you just want to get up and cheer for Jesus. Okay. But there [clears throat] are many, many, many decisions he has made that if I was if we were friends, I'd call him on the phone and be like, "Help me understand this." Um, but it it's really just time will tell. You know, um, because it seems to be all the folks that just seem to start slipping. either if they've done something wrong, they will repent on it and then tighten up or there will be something in their life that will just be exposed. But nobody gets to hide in the dark forever. >> So I guess like a a proofs in the pudding kind of a thing. So and actually I I was trying to think of the best way to approach this, but you know, we we've had so many interviews, but what what's that lady's uh that that uh the journalist Julie Roy is what's what's her name? >> Is it Julie Roy? Okay. I just got to tell you when she did this big long expose on Life Church and on Craig Rochelle and someone from my foxhole from the forging table sent it to me and when I read the just the caption to to advertise this on Facebook I'm like oh this is going to be nonsense and again I I'm I'm not a fan of of Craig Rochelle's approach to ministry his preaching any of that type of stuff again I have the context of years ago when I was at the church for over a decade >> I read through this article and I was like this is the biggest croc of crap that I've ever seen in my entire life. Wait, so you're telling me he had high expectations for his employees? You're telling me that he put his employees in high pressure situations and expected them to perform because we're supposed to be trading our time and talent for money. The church gives money and you're supposed to be there and not cry as you sit there and mess around in your diaper that you're actually supposed to do your job. It seems like he did a little uh grappling demonstration with one of his pencilnecked employees and the guy got a little buttth hurt at the fact that he was basically rendered helpless and they had to call an ambulance because his throat got crushed and all this kind of stuff. I'm like this is the biggest croc of crap ever. If you want to quibble with things that he said or his, you know, thimble deep theology, all those different things, those are legitimate critiques. But to build this like I don't know how many thousands of words this thing was. It was a steaming heaping pile of garbage and it just But the problem is is people are going to read that be like ah that guy's he's demonic like he he's terrible and all that. I'm like if he is terrible it's for way different reasons but it's not all these milktoast ones. Like what are you talking about? [clears throat] >> Craig Oelle's godly bro. Godly with his home with his wife with his children with his church with his integrity with his character. You know you might not like his style. That's fine. But here's here's the problem, bro. With all the watchdog ministries, if you cry wolf all the time, then when there's actually a problem, nobody can listen. >> Yeah, we're not going because if you put Craig Rochelle having high expectations for his employees at the same level 10 as Robert Morris raping a child. That that's a major issue. >> Correct. Yeah, that's what I mean. So then two things are going to happen. They don't trust people that read and take this stuff seriously. Don't trust trust other people. That's bad. or they overlook people that are doing horrendous things. >> Yep. >> Like the like there's a terrible cover up culture in the hypercharismatic world that needs to be called out. The problem is all the Coloradoers have been calling out everybody for anything or nothing. And so you don't know what to believe. It's very similar to like if you turn on the news today, can you actually believe anything? If you see a video today, can you even actually believe it? you know, because there's so much stuff online that we find out is not real, not true. Then when the true thing happens, you don't actually get warned. So it it's a I'm glad you saw it. And I'll tell you in particular to that one, get ready. One day it's coming after you. >> It is. It's coming after you. We live in a day if you call sin sin and hold people to account, then that's called a toxic work environment. >> And guys, it's the [clears throat] craziest thing. There was a woman in Finland that was convicted of a war crime for basically saying what the Bible had to say about the the sin of homosexuality. I think last year 20 pastors in the UK were arrested for basically saying, "Hey, this is what the Bible says." And if you don't think that could happen here in this country, you're a fool. And as I talked about last year on September the 10th or I guess the episode would came out on the 11th or the 12th after Charlie Kirk was murdered. It's like my wife and I have had the discussion, babe, the things I say to this microphone might land me in prison someday. And we have to be okay with that. But also it could land me on the wrong end of somebody's bullet. And so like those are just things like that. That's why we get hazard pay, I guess, is because uh these are the things that we have to face every day. >> Yeah. We don't get to collect till we get to heaven, though. That's but that's fine with me. And then all the crowns we get, we just have to lay down at the feet of Jesus. Anyway, so we're going to keep this rolling. Uh we got a few more questions here. We'll go a little bit faster. This is from Eric of the forging table. Is a true Christian also a disciple of Christ? If Christ is more interested in disciples rather than decisions for him, where have we gone wrong in reducing the gospel to a singular decision rather than an ongoing transformation? Obviously talking about sanctification here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, [laughter] I mean, to try to to try to pit those two things together in the question is wrong. And I understand what you're doing because especially in the last, I don't know, 40, 50 years that a lot of folks have have divorced evangelism and disciplehip, but you don't see that in the Bible. So, the great commission is to go and make disciples. Well, if you don't make a decision to follow Jesus, then you'll never be a disciple. So the key is one of the things here at 11:22 and all the things we do, we just don't divorce those two things. So the weekend is disciplehip. People getting saved is disciplehip. People growing in their faith is disciplehip. And um even the even the phrase Christian u I know what he means, but in the Bible we're only called Christians twice. One time is projorative, but we're called in Christ 168 times. So I think we need to be thinking more like that. Like, but it does start with a moment. You know, it either started with a moment you can't remember because you kind of got slow baked into it as a kid. Praise God for that kind of salvation. Or it starts with a moment where you're convicted of your sins and you raise your hand or prayer prayer or whatever you do, whatever. But it's a marker to say, "I'm dead to myself and I'm turning over the reigns of my life to Jesus." But if you don't have that moment of turning over your reigns, you can never be a disciple. And if you actually did turn over the reigns, you can't not be a disciple. And so the perseverance of the saints is part of the evidence that when you put your faith in Jesus, that actually happened. And you weren't like one of the seeds that got stolen away, choked out, or withered in the sun cuz you didn't have roots. All right, this one's from Ryan, who's a monthly donor. Is there a point where being overweight becomes a sin? Around the new year, my church got a new pastor, and I also voted him onto the board. There were a few joking comments on stage made about how he liked pie and wasn't afraid of food. I approached him with my concerns about the comments and offered my support for improving his health. He mentioned that being overweight is not a sin since generally it is sloth and/or gluttony that leads to it. I disagreed, but I didn't want him to feel attacked. So, I backed off. >> Yeah, I'd get to know him and I would I would keep on the path that you are because it is a sin. It is. And now, not in every case. There are some [clears throat] situations in life medical I mean you know for sure not every person that doesn't pass the eye test is sinning but if you are not pursuing health for the sake of the gospel then you you are being weighted down by some like this would be like Hebrews 12 let us fix our eyes on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith and let us lay aside any hindrance it's a hindrance bro like it that Jesus Jesus says the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. So if you are not loving him with your physical body, now again, if you take it too far, it's idolatry. If you ignore it, it's sacrilege. When you treat something sacred as common, that's sacrilege. So like if if we were at a campfire and I tore out some pages of my Bible to start the fire, you would be like, I don't think you should do that. That's a sacred text. And I'd be like, it's just paper, you know, and I gave you all the reasons. is just ink. That ain't could have been you. Whatever, dude. We know that's sacred. Your body is more sacred. Jesus did not die for the Bible. He died for you. Heart, soul, mind, and strength. Now, shaming I don't know if you should try to build the kind of relationship where you could like I would shame you. Not publicly. >> Yeah. Right. >> But I would privately because I do think it can motivate. >> That's right. Not the way the enemy does, but I would hold I would I would not mind standing in your face and go, "Bro, God's got better for you. You got better for you. You are not being the man that you've been called to be." And if that causes you shame, I don't care. But yeah, I would lean in hard and I would be like, "Bro, this is for you." But the only way it's going to happen is through relationship. You heard it here first. Joby is big on body shaming. So there you go, guys. You can put that [laughter] put that on the internet. I know you got a heart out. So this is my last question scenario. Okay. The Jags finished their new stadium this couple years in the future. And Church of 1122 is going to do a big Billy Graham style revival event. You're filling up that stadium. There's a small stage there in the center. You're doing a big big thing. You talk about it for months. You get everybody excited. It's beautiful weather that day. No hurricanes. And then the stadium's going to be full. You're sold out or whatever the thing is. Everybody's good to go. The morning of the event, you wake up. You have no voice. And I don't mean you can whisper. I mean, your voice is gone gone. Doctor comes in and says, "Jobie, you're Fsville. There's no way that you're going to be able to talk tonight. Not going to happen." And then you have one of your lovely donors for uh Church 11:22. They they run into your office. They go, "Jobie, I heard about the news. You can't talk. I have a private jet ready to go." And a pilot can fly anywhere in the world to get any preacher to preach in yourstead tonight. You just got to tell me where to go and who I'm picking up. Who are you sending? Where are you sending them? And who are we picking up? >> Great question. Uh, one question. Is this is this a thing for 11:22 or is this a thing for the world? You know what I mean? >> This is a thing. This is put on this is for the world presented by the church of 11:22. >> All right, then I'll give two answers. Uh, I would go get Matt Chandler. Um, I know him. I love him. I trust him. He happens to be one of the greatest preachers in our whole generation. uh just because I I just know what he would do, you know? So, that's who I'd get. Uh if it was like a if it was some sort of anniversary thing for 11:22 and it was us, Pastor Brian Brit is next man up. And uh he has the spiritual authority here in our church for our church. So, those that that that's why I asked the question, but yeah, dude, it's my boy Chandler. I mean, he he just slings the gospel as pure as anybody I know. And what I also know is the reason that he would come say yes is not because of the full Everbank stadium. It's cuz he's my friend. He loves me. He loves our church. And if I say he's told me whatever you need from me, whatever you ask for me, my answer is yes. And so that has already been preddecided, if that makes sense. So regardless of who's like got a lot of flare right now and there's a bunch of my friends that do and praise God for them but I've been rolling with that dude for a minute and so I know what he would do. >> Got to say I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping you would say Andy Stanley. But guys we GOT TO LEAVE IT THERE. JOBY, WE'LL TALK TO YOU NEXT MONTH. >> Thanks bro. Heal up. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undanta.life. life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music]