[Music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys. We got a special guest on the podcast today. His name is Andy Coleman. He is the president of the Christian Emergency Alliance. That is a ministry that is committed to helping biblical Christians stand under hostile cultural pressures. So, he's coordinated field efforts to assist persecuted Christians in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. And he's also the author of the book In the Days of Darkness. And so, on this particular podcast today, we talk about, you know, his, you know, upbringing and we talk a little bit about the fact that he went to the United States Air Force Academy and then he went to law school and kind of the things that he did. He started to see some things while he was deployed that absolutely broke his heart and it was specifically the persecution, the real life persecution of Christians. And so he got into that line of work, eventually founded the Christian Emergency Alliance. But this podcast today was is kind of a wakeup call for a lot of Christians, especially here in the West, especially here in America, where we've gotten very, very comfortable. We've gotten very, very comfortable with operating in peace time and not really understanding or worrying about the plight. I mean, we know generally that there are people in third world countries that are they're kind of having a rough go of it and maybe they're they don't have the economic opportunities that we do. Maybe their churches aren't as fancy as ours and they're not driving as fancy new cars to park in the parking lots to go to those churches and all those different things. But we really got down to brass tax about what specifically is happening around the globe right now to Christians simply because they are Christians that currently exist. And so we get into certain things, but I also didn't just let it kind of sit there with all these hard cases. It's like, hey, is there a point where helping these people kind of actually hurts them? You know, what about the military-aged males that are in these areas that their default mechanism in their brain is just to look for rich Western Americans to help them or to look for the UN to help them or to look for some random NGO to help them as opposed to like girding up their loins and helping themselves. And then we talk specifically about the church and how the modern church, again, specifically in the West, it's like we're built for peace time, right? And if you're a peaceime army and it's peace time, it actually works out pretty well. But it's when things start to get kinetic and you have a peace time mindset how that doesn't actually work out well for you. Talked a little bit about the book, but I really enjoyed his conversation. It is, you know, a wakeup call for a lot of guys. So, I'm excited to bring him to you. So, without further ado, let's get into it. Andy Coleman, welcome to Unawn a Life a Man's podcast. Hey Kyle, thanks for having me. >> We're going to get into a lot of subject matters here today, but we need to we need to kind of start small, give everybody an introduction into kind of who you are. So you went to the United States Air Force Academy, which is pretty cool, but then you also went to KU Law School. So Rockchock Jay-Hawk. So give me a sense of like, okay, what made you want to go the Air Force Academy route? But then how were you able to cuz I don't really understand like if you go to one of themies, like how much you need to stay in, like how were you able to go to law school? So, let's just start with your education and then we'll build into because I think that provides a little bit of scaffolding for the work you're doing now. >> Yeah. Graduated from the Air Force Academy and I spent several years uh serving as an officer there. And after about four or five years, I was debating what to do with the next steps as far as getting a degree. I was looking at different programs, but decided to get the JD because it opened a lot of doors and didn't close any. I could stay in the air force doing what I was doing, which was uh trying to keep tabs of enemy weapon systems and developments in foreign countries. Um but it also gave me options if I wanted to pivot and do something else. So went to law school. Um opted to stay in the reserves. So that was an interesting experience. Um but yeah, I got the JD. While I was a law student, I actually got mobilized by the army. So I came out of the Air Force Academy but got sent to play with the army during the surge in Baghdad 2007 to 2008 and where I had plans to maybe stay in the air force or be a lawyer. It was on that deployment to Baghdad that I met persecuted Christians and my whole world changed after that. >> Okay. So let's talk a little bit about going and doing that. So because you could go the military route, you can go the legal route but you you see what you see. So what specifically was it that you saw because it's not the normal trajectory you know like to one of the you know uh militarymies to law school to full-time ministry especially in some of the the worst places on the planet. So so what exactly did you see and what did that change in you? >> Well um I would say it's important for me to reference the fact that I was I was applying to some other programs. So, I really like the military, but I was also interested in some of the other uh ways that you could serve um in different capacities. But I read a book by Louis Free called My FBI. He was the former director of the FBI and he just talked about how all these options afforded um themselves to him in his own career. And I like that. I liked options. Um but when I was on the ground in Baghdad, um compelling work trying to keep our team safe across the country. And so I was looking at Baghdad. I was looking up north. I was looking all around. Um but meeting these Christians, all of whom were displaced by the time I ran into them. We were working in villages and and local areas. Um very different setting than I was used to. But something happened for me when I was, you know, meeting them face to face, learning their names, playing soccer with their kids, breaking bread with them. These people had suffered tremendously. And I had heard about the plight of persecuted Christians before and it intrigued me. But when I actually started to connect uh soul to soul, human being to human being, um it was like my heart burst. My heart exploded and my life was forever changed. So even when I was on the ground, uh I didn't know what to do. I I only knew that I had this window, this unique window into this community that was hurting a lot. And so even then and there, I just set up an ad hoc ministry, if you will. I found out some of their needs, which were significant, and I just got on the horn with my church, with my family, with my friends back home, explained it to them, and before long, they started sending waves of materials over so I could just start helping out a little bit with these people. And yeah, it was at the end of that deployment, I came back, finished school. Um, God was so good to me. He gave me a great job when the market had really collapsed around that time. Uh but I was only there practicing law for a short season when I felt compelled. I really felt a heavy weight come upon me and that uh I was I am here to help Christians who are in trouble and to help the church stand. >> Okay. And so was it before you finished law school that you started the Christian Emergency Alliance or did that come after? >> Oh my goodness, it came long after. So I got out of I got out of law school like I said got picked up to be an associate at a large law firm. I was practicing complex litigation. It was a great setup. Um, but I I was just I really felt impressed because I was helping my local church with some of their ministries in the Middle East. And uh I just realized um at some point, no, I'm supposed to be doing this with a lot bigger chunk of my life than I am right now. So, I ended up leaving my practice and moving to join a a large Christian ministry that did help uh persecuted Christians. And so I eventually in a few months time uh took over the Middle East region for them. So from Egypt to Pakistan, I was boppinging around the hinterlands of these countries and connecting with Christians just like I was doing on a small scale when I was deployed, but now with a a much bigger budget and a lot uh way bigger capacity. And I did that for about seven years. >> And uh Okay. Yeah, >> let's actually dig into the type of work that you're doing because, >> you know, when you look at and again, we're recording this a while before it comes out, but when you look at even generically from a 30,000 foot view, what's happening uh in the in Judea and Samaria right now, and you look at how Israel, I mean, if they're trying to genocide the Palestinians, they're they're the worst genociders of all time. But like if you were to um that they're they're helping get aid in there, but a lot of the aid at least initially when it was coming from random NOS's or whatever was being stolen by Hamas and then it was either being thrown away or kept in their tunnels and not being given to the populace. And so Israel again, they're going to war with these people that actually voted to have Hamas in power. And yet they're the ones ensuring that the water and the food and the grain and the clothing and all that is getting to the pal the Palestinian people. Right. Yeah, >> but how let's just talk about before the Christian Emergency Alliance, just when you're working with uh the people in the territory that you had there in the Middle East, how specifically can you Andy ensure that whatever materials or whatever it is that you're serving them with actually gets to them? >> Man, Kyle, that is a great question and nobody's ever asked me this. Um, in all the conversations I've had, nobody's asked me this question, but that's spot on. And I even started learning this lesson as an officer in Baghdad because what I realized is there was some big hearts that wanted to do good work for people that they knew were struggling in these parts of the world. Uh but so much of it was going to bad ends. What I realized in Baghdad is I had this narrow window. I could look around and I could see black markets all over the place where supplies that have been sent in were being sold off. They never even reached the people they were intended to help. But for us, the the team that I was working with, we had essentially a a quiet private uh channel to these communities and I could actually uh specifically nurses. There was nurses meeting with some of these Christian women who behind closed doors could slip them what they needed without it ever reaching other other people, other middlemen who would then uh turn for a profit and never uh allow it to reach where it's needed. So, I learned then and there I was like, "Man, that's really important. We really got to be focused on how we're getting this assistance to people that were trying to help to these Christians." Um, I saw I saw some boneheaded maneuvers in the field where people would allow goods to be trafficked through Islamist organizations cuz they would tell themselves, "Well, I'm I'm at least getting help to where it's needed. Uh, so this is a good thing." And I would push back because typically they were younger younger folks and be like, "No, this isn't wise. um all you're doing is increasing the influence of these people who hate Christ and are actually going to advance uh a campaign, an agenda against uh the against biblical values, against the Christian community. So that's no bueno. So what we do is we work through the local church. We want to work through the local church because again I I am seeking to help the church stand through the local churches in all of these countries. And so I want it to channel through them. I want them to be the recipients of that goodwill that's generated with other Christians who are hurting. I want them to have those follow-on conversations that people are struggling and it's a a war. They don't know what to do. They don't know what's true, but they need answers. I want the I want local Christians to be able to go through churches. So, that's how we do it. We don't do any kind of mass program where we're doing governmental options. We're sending things through official governmental channels. Uh we're working through local Christians, local Christian communities, and the church. >> Okay. So Andy, help me help me figure this out from like a practical standpoint because uh there's a couple of elements. So I'm sure you've read the book when helping hurts. Like that's kind of this thing where how often do you help people? And at one point do you tell them hey stand on your own two feet. But if somebody is living in a village where at any point Boo Haram could be come coming in in you know Hiluxes and come and chop off the heads of all the people in the village because they're serving the prophet Muhammad it's kind of hard to say well stand on your own two feet. It's a little bit difficult but in a less dramatic way Andy how do you prevent the people you're helping from becoming targets? So, let's say you're in an area of the Middle East. Everyone's poor, everyone's destitute, but here you are giving them things. And so, maybe, I don't know, maybe they're walking around and in a new pair of pants or they've got a new pair of shoes, or you can see that they're drinking a water bottle that they didn't buy at a local market or something like that. How can you help these people in a way that it doesn't make them even more targeted for further persecution? >> Yeah. So we again work through private channels and a lot of times what we're doing is persecution response. Um in other ways we might be helping perhaps with theological training. Sometimes there's regions where pastors are run out of dodge if they're effective as pastors uh like in countries like Iran that puts a target on their back. And so sometimes they're forced out. They may be forced out of their country and they may be sent to prison, forcing a a junior person to step up into a leadership role earlier than they they intended. And so now they may need pastoral training. Um or there's people that have hospital bills that need to be covered. Or there's a a family who's the bread winner, the husband, the dad is in jail and they're struggling. Their local church can't take care of them. We'll help in that. So you won't ever see a lot of times like new genes or anything like that that puts a spotlight on these communities. We're we're trying to help where they're vulnerable, where they're in need. >> And this is another important point, we operate on the principle of the unmet need. So what we love to see, we love to work through local churches in these countries where they already have a heart to help in these ways. They're already uh evangelizing in tough spots. They're already trying to disciple new believers in tough spots and they're sometimes paying a price. They're they are persecuted. They are facing challenges. But we love that. That's us. We're taking the little that we have to offer and we're doing what we can. We're presenting it to the Lord and seeing what he does through it. And so what typically happens is we'll run across some Christians doing that in country X and uh they're doing what they have with the little they've got, but their vision is here. they're able to do this. Their vision is here and so there's a delta there and it may be in that spot where we can help out a little bit so they're not dependent on us. If we never show up, they're still going to do what they're doing. So you don't have that same type of dependency risk uh that can kick in. Um and we're not trying to, you know, bring people up to Western standards if you're living in Yemen. >> What we're just trying to do is help where the church is under fire, where it's under threat. >> Okay. So, let's go back to the point about when helping hurts because for for those of you that aren't in the audience, I'm I'm trying to be charitable in my my summary of that book, but basically it's like there is a point where when you've helped someone for so long or to such a degree, you're actually hurting them. It's a derivative of when people tell you, hey, whatever your kids can do, have them do it. Don't do it for them because you're taking away their ability to develop. Same thing with, you know, elderly folks that are maybe in assisted living. It's like you don't want to do everything for them. You want to do for them the things that they simply cannot do for themselves, right? And so in a situation like this though with with persecuted Christians in third world countries that are in dangerous situations like at what point in your estimation and experience would you say that this is the point where helping hurts? >> I think the point where you are doing things like you described that they should be doing. So this is the risk. You know you can send a youth group somewhere and they paint a house but if you look around at the It's a impoverished area. We're painting a house, but the locals are sitting around on their thumbs and they're watching these foreigners come in and paint the house for them. It's like, well, I'm not sure that that's communicating what we want to communicate and I'm not sure that's incentivizing what we want to incentivize. So, again, if our goal as the Christian Emergency Alliance is to help strengthen the church, that strength is going to come through repetitions. it's going to come through lifting and pushing against resistance. Um, so we like to come alongside and partner with them, come behind them with what they're already doing. I think when you get into danger is when you come in and again, big hearts. Some people have really big hearts and they just want to make life more palatable. They want to make life easy. Um, and they come in and they substitute their actions in in favor of the locals. And so that's where I think we have a problem. We want to be able to just come in, help them under fire because for example the you mentioned boo in in Nigeria I I don't think most people have an idea of the scale of violence. It's it's likely the the most kinetic physical persecution on earth right now. It is a localized equivalent of the Arab conquest, the Islamic conquest of North Africa. All of North Africa used to be Christian. What happened? We think of it now as Islamic. it was entirely mowed down. That is what's going on in northern and central Nigeria. So in those cases, we're confident there's nothing that we're not breeding dependency. Uh they're not people that are not we're not doing work for them that that can't do themselves. It's literally getting medicine to people that are on the run. It is helping widows who have no assistance otherwise cuz they've had to flee their village. it's trying to provide cover hospital bills that are just not being paid or they can't get into a doctor. Um, so that those are the types of circumstances that we are confronting. >> Okay, Andy, I definitely want to get back into Boo Haram, but I want to come back because you you triggered something in my brain because I thought about this because, you know, for for you could say decades, but especially for the last few years, the immigration question here in the United States has been a hot button issue. the illegal immigration that was allowed uh by the Biden administration versus the tamping down of it here with the Trump administration and all the kurfuffle that comes with all those different things. The one thing that's always concerning to me is if I'm being charitable and saying that, okay, yes, the people that are illegally cutting the line and coming into this country illegally on purpose, you know, maybe they're just they're destitute, they're they're they're desperate. What would I do if I lived in their country and in their situation? The issue I have, Andy, is when military-aged males, strong veririle 20some year olds, 30ome year olds, 40ome year olds, people that are in the most energetic stages of their life or in their most productive stages of their life, when they flee from their country, it's like, wait a minute. If y'all are looking around for the guys that are going to fix your country, you're it. Like, I forget what NBA coach like came in. He's got a a really famous thing. I think it was Pat Riley maybe or Rick Patino. He came in and looked at his players at halftime and he said, "Hey guys, there's not another team coming through this door, right? Y'all are the ones that are here to fix it." I'm wondering, again, I'm trying to be charitable because I'm I'm living in Edmund, Oklahoma. I'm not worried about somebody coming into my neighborhood and like snatching my my family out and, you know, executing them in front of me. Uh, you know, while they're raping my wife before they execute her and then execute me. Like, I'm not having to worry about that. But for some of these people that are over there, is there that level of, "Hey guys, don't automatically be looking for help from rich westerners or from NOS's or from the United Nations or from any other, you know, feckless semi-ilitary organization. At some point, y'all are going to have to get together and push back darkness yourselves." It's almost like you were talking about you were you making a a reference to the Crusades and Raymond Ibrahim who's a mutual friend of ours wrote a you know the best books I've ever read on the subject defenders of the West is just a mindblowing good book. Christians in that area were pushed back and pushed back and pushed back and then finally they said enough. We're taking this land back and we're killing all of you. Right? And again there were atrocities on both sides. We don't need to really play that out today, but do you kind of get what I'm saying, Andy? I'm trying to like work this out. As I was preparing this interview and as I was reading through the book and going through, it's like at what point do we say, "Okay, >> we're getting people together and we're just going to kill Boo Haram." And it's not going to be Navy Seals from America. It's going to be you guys. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. No. So, all the threads that you're pulling on are important. And I think as Christians, we cannot allow ourselves to be compartmentalized where our faith informs, you know, maybe Sundays. It can't just inform our men's group. It it's got to be something that we're taking day in and day out. And it applies even to these situations. And so with that in mind, what I would say is on when it comes to what we've been seeing as far as illegal immigration and just immigration period, um we as Christians have to recognize, no, this isn't okay. No country in the history of man uh went through this and it ended up well. Mass is in my opinion criminal. It is dislodging the local culture. It shows no regard for the local culture and it is it is really supplanting that local culture. So that that's just wrong that should be resisted. And so a lot of what the the type of work that we're doing isn't implicated in this. The people that are the military age males that are crossing borders illegally that are getting shuttled through that are getting benefits uh out the nose that in some cases are getting benefits and it's not just in America. This is happening in Ireland. This is happening in England. This is happening in Germany. It's happening across the West. Um something nefarious is going on and we as Christians cannot be blind to that. We have to recognize that for what it is and resist it. Um the the fact that these people there's an agenda pushing this. There's a lot of money pushing this. So on the one hand we can resist that and say no we don't we don't want to advance that. We will want to promote that. In fact we want to curtail that and stop that. that is perfectly fine. One of the things that I have encountered in different places, but it's a consistent theme is an overly misplaced pyotistic Christianity that is very limpisted. It is very weak and it is very content to not speak. It doesn't want to offend anybody. If there's problems that are coming against the church, then we just have to continuously absorb it. If people want to dislodge a Christianized culture, then we might we need to just let it go. And that's one of the other things that as the Christian Emergency Alliance when we're talking about strengthening the church, we're we're talking about that as well. Uh Raymond Ibrahim uh talks about, you know, the different seasons of Christian history where Christians have uh resisted the darkness. We need to resist the darkness today. We need to rediscover our story. We need to rediscover our Christian history. There's great lessons for us to learn. That's one of the ways that we have to to bolster one another. But this is something that we're confronting in places like Nigeria and other places where we want them to be able to stand up, protect their own areas and and have the type of protections that they as human beings should have anywhere. You should be you should have the expectation that if you own a farm, strangers don't get to come on your farm and swack your family, swack you, steal your stuff. We need to to stand up against that. Unfortunately, in areas like this, they just don't have any champions. But one of the important things for us to walk away from is that we are the church. There is no other team. Like you said, there's there's no nobody else coming through the door. Uh we can't look to the Canadian government. We can't look to the American government. We need to look at the church. We're the church. We're one giant spiritual family. We're resourced to the teeth. We feel vulnerable and alone and isolated. That's got to go. We are a massive spiritual family. We're a massive body and we just need to look around and remind ourselves of that. So whether we're in this country or that country, mass migration is not the answer. Biblical truth, biblical standards, and a capacity to help strengthen the church where the limbs are weak. We're confident that that is what uh what the church needs and what the world needs. Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you guys struggle with getting a consistent workout routine. So, wherever you get to, whether that's the Globo Gym or your home gym or even like a parking lot somewhere. You get there and then you don't know what to do. 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But then someone like me comes to you and says just asks you some questions and says, you know, hey, do you know what the average response time for 911 is here in the United States of America? They'll probably say no. And I'll say it's roughly 7 minutes is average response time. But if you live in a larger area, you might get a busy signal if you're in Los Angeles County and you call 911. You may get somebody on the horn after being on hold for over an hour. And then so in a situation like somebody's breaking down the door, right? So in a situation where seconds matter, help is at least minutes away. So it's a mindset shift when you're like, "No, no, no. One's coming to save me. No one's coming to help. There is no cavalry that's on the way. I am my first line of defense." And for me personally, Andy, I'm not going to outsource my violence to the government. Now, if something's happening and the government can help me as a force multiplier, absolutely. Like I don't need to be John Rambo. Like, yeah, come come on over. we'll fight this together. But there's a difference between resisting darkness and pushing darkness back. Because when you resist darkness, that's implying that you're allowing them to push on you and allowing them to lean on you and okay, allowing them to do a little bit. No, when we're pushing back, it's an offensive mindset as opposed to a defensive mindset. But I do I here I was I was kind of floating into the world of of the philosophical and I forgot to ask you. So, how do you transition from this organization that you're working with to the Christian Emergency Alliance? because I I want to kind of get a a sense of like, okay, how did that transition go? What does the Christian Emergency Alliance do because we will link to it in the show notes so you guys can check it out. But then I want to talk about specific things that are happening because of specific groups around the globe. >> Well, I think one of the one of the things that the Christian Emergency Alliance does that's a bit different is we are a smaller Christian ministry. We are very agile, very flexible, and we are uh trying to be very responsive to these needs rather than really giant massive infusions of project dollars or anything like this. We're trying to be much more targeted, much more tailored. Uh but I also want to touch on something that you brought up and it's it's critical and it is our mindset. Um we do need to shift how we approach these things as Christians. And I don't care uh where you're listening to this. You could be listening to this in in Texas. You could be listening to this in Germany. You could be listening to this in South Africa. Uh but we have to reexamine the mindset that we bring as Christians. So uh your description of well who's responsible uh for safeguarding my family? Well well you are. I I'm responsible for my family. And again, we are combating this overly pyotistic Christianity that's in many corners of the world. And what I emphasize with them is look, if we look through scripture, you see the model of a shepherd over and over and over again. A shepherd, a shepherd takes care of their sheep, takes care of their flock. They cultivate a voice to to help and and direct them to nourishment, to protect them. But they also develop capacities and voices for the wolves, for the bears, for those that would target them and and hunt them down. So, we need to remember that. We need to recall that. Uh again, it's like flexing or exercising muscles that the church just hasn't used for a very long time. We're weak. We're flabby. We're soft. But that's okay. As long we start to to come to terms with where we're at, then we can make gains. We can start to exercise them. We can grow stronger. The other mindset component that I am talking about over and over again is what I call a spiritual hunter mindset. And it comes from my military background. This is where I first started connecting some dots with what I was seeing overseas. And when I went through combat survival training, uh it was really they were simulating what it was going to be like for us if we were a downed airman. If we were a downed airman in enemy territory. And they told you they're like, "Look, we're going to simulate this for you. We're going to park you in the mountains. You're not going to have much. And we're going to pretend to send companies of infantry to to come and grab you, to harm you. They're going to be wellarmed. You're not. Uh they're going to have a lot of equipment. You will have little. Uh you're going to be probably cold. You're going to be wet. You're going to be scared. You're going to be tempted to roll up in the fetal position and and just die. But the trainers would be like, "You're not allowed to do that. You're not allowed to do that. Instead, here's what you're going to do. Instead of looking around at all that you don't have and and bemoning that and you know feeling sorry for yourself, here's what you're going to do. You're going to start taking stock of all that you do have. All right. Yeah, you're cold, lonely, you're out there, you're scared, but what do you have? Well, I've got this 550 paracord. Okay. Well, that's just some rope. What do you Well, gosh, you know what? I can actually make some shelter out of this. Um, I could actually fish with this. I can set traps. I can get food. I can take care of my needs. Wow. Okay, I got that. Well, what else do you have? Well, I'm surrounded by mountains. I'm surrounded by this forest. I have all kinds of ways to conceal myself. I've been taught a few things to conceal my movements. Uh, yeah, they may be heavily armed, but they may have no clue where I am, and I know where they are. I've got this stuff. And all of a sudden, it's like the it's like it just flips on us. You suddenly are going on offense. Yeah, you have you're vulnerable. Yeah, you have a lot stacked against you, but you're actually taking the fight to them. And spiritually, that's what we as Christians need to do. Yeah, there's a lot of problems in the world. Lots of problems. There's a lot of areas where the church is weak where we need biblical values to be re reasserted, but all of those problems are opportunities for the church to engage. And as as soon as we start taking stock of that, wow, we've got a whole lot of believers. And those believers are in every country on earth. We're backed by the God who created and sustained all things. We are armed to the teeth with truth. We have all of these resources and opportunities that we need to deploy. And so that is a key thing that if if you can grasp that as an individual in your community, um if we could do that across the board, it'll be a sea change as far as the church's response to the problems to the darkness that's engulfing us. >> And so that's what you what you set up with the Christian Emergency Alliance, right? is basically getting all those resources in the same house under the same roof and kind of pointed in the same direction. Is that fair to say? >> Yep, that is. >> Okay, very good. And again, guys, you can check out more about the Christian Emergency Alliance in the show notes. But I do want to talk about things because there are misperceptions, Andy, about what persecution looks like. Because people that don't know any better here in America, they think persecution is I posted a scripture on Facebook and someone left a, you know, sarcastic comment. Ah, I'm being persecuted. Yeah. Right. Or, uh, you know, maybe it's a soft persecution like at their job, right? They allow Pride Month displays to be at people's cubicles and all that, but if you put a cross and a Bible in your desk, it's like, "Hey, we need to we need to not be so judgmental and bigoted. Can we please put that away?" So that's that's not fun. Those aren't fun conversations and and things to deal with, but it's not the same type of persecution. But please describe for our audience because our audience, you know, I bring this information to them, Andy, but we get new listeners every week. So there's probably somebody that this is their first interaction with Undaunted Life and so they haven't heard me talk about this before. But when you think about Islamist groups uh which are Muslim fundamentalist groups uh you know ultimately like Boo Haram like al-Qaeda like Hamas like these different groups um in the the the people in Syria you know with Al Galani and who's who's basically leading that country and you know they're not just taking out uh the rival Muslims are taking out Alawites they're taking out Christians all those types of things. give us a sense just generically what is going on around the globe and who are the perpetrators of this evil. >> Yeah, so persecution comes in many different forms. It can be the the most violence type uh attacks that you could conceive of. Uh it's carried out by different actors. But uh one of the things that we try to be intentional about is uh unveiling some of that because some of it is mysterious. So we don't know what's going on. And when you don't know, you can your fear can ratchet up. Um, but persecution can come from top down or bottom up. And what I mean by that is top down, it could be carried out by the government. In some countries around the world, the government has policies in place to shutter the church to uh prevent evangelism or any kind of growth of the church. And that's where you'll see uh you could see that in the Soviet Union or the Eastern block countries up until the 80s. Um you still see that in countries like China, Iran, and these places where the government has sanctioned church activities. Um and there's there's interesting ways when it's top down that the church can still grow. Um there's a there's a few tricks that we need to learn from one another. Things that have worked well in some of those settings that as the temperatures tick up in western countries, hey, we we need to figure those out. Those tactics worked well there. We may need to deploy them in these streets over here. Um when you have bottom up persecution, that's where most of the persecution's not so much coming from the government, but really uh from the community. It it'll come from your family. It'll be your it'll be your parents. It'll be your brothers and sisters. So that that happens in some Muslim majority countries. There's some of those that the the government doesn't get too hot and bothered if you decide to convert and follow Jesus Christ, but you better watch out cuz your uncle or your aunt's coming for you. Um and that gets really nasty. People will disappear. Um there's honor killings. People will be um subject to to torture and abuse in an attempt to reconvert them to their original identity. Um so and then you also get hybrid scenarios where you get the the worst of both worlds. Um and and that's where you get a lot of persecution from the community and you get a lot of persecution from the government and it's very challenging for the church to advance there. And yet uh the church can advance there. So we need to figure that all out. Now here's the one thing I will say and uh I've gotten push back. There's there's people that are very knowledgeable, very thoughtful that disagree with me on this, but I I want to caution Western Christians because yeah, are are there going to be some knuckleheads out there that do something silly and then they get swacked on the knuckles and they cry persecution and it's just everybody rolls their eyes? Yeah, that that does happen. Um, are there just some minor uh grievances, some minor push back? somebody rolls their eyes at you because you put a Bible on your desk. Yeah, that's that's just kind of people being people. But I do want to caution Western Christians on this. Uh persecution falls on a spectrum. And just because it's like crime falls on a spectrum. Just because my sibling didn't get murdered, uh but I got pickpocketed that I can still call that pickpocketing a crime. Uh it's not all the same. I don't want to equate the two. I don't want to conflate them, but that is still a crime. Um, and one of the things I do see in the West is we can be too quick to dismiss things that we need to pause about. And and so when it rises to the level where somebody might be prevented from earning an income, when they get kicked out of their job, it's not just the eye roll, but now they're they're prevented from working, things like that. We need to recognize that for what it is. And I would say that that is persecution. And here's why. When I was working in very difficult countries, I would typically ask local Christians, if I was just conversing with them, hey, hypothetically, I I get I'm going to give you two options, and you tell me what option you want. Option number one is you take a savage beating. You get taken to the grill. You're losing teeth. You got broken bones because of your faith in Jesus Christ. That's option one. Option two, none of that happens, but instead you lose your job. What would you rather have? And and almost without fail, they would say, "Give me the beating. Give me the beating." Because if I can't provide for my family, then I'm done. And there's a whole other element of persecution called smart persecution, which really suppresses the Christian witness in a village, in an area by just these types of tactics. It silences, it squeezes out the church. And they recognize that and they're like, "I'll take the beating." any day, but don't persecute me by taking away my ability to provide for my family. So, as in the West, we need to recognize that, too. And when we start losing jobs, when Christians are losing, you know, opportunities, it's okay to start speaking up early. It's not the same as he heavy-handed persecution in Pakistan, we get that. But we should be able to recognize it for what it is and speak up early and and not hesitate on that. when I think you're you're speaking to something here because I've heard Joe Rogan say this before, but it's the worst thing that's ever happened to you is the worst thing that's ever happened to you. And so for some people, the worst thing that's ever happened to them is their child was beheaded while they while they watched. And for other people, it's that they were fired from their job uh because, you know, a reason that's not justified, I guess you could say. And so it's still bad like categorically in a binary zero or one. Yes, it's in the bad category, the negative category. It's just the degree, right? Same thing with depravity when you're talking about people that have been saved. There were people that, you know, came to Christ as a seven-year-old at Aana. And there were people that came to Christ as a 37year-old when they had a needle still hanging from their arm and a belt wrapped around it. And it's just different levels of depravity, right? It's different flavors of sin, if you will. >> But this is probably a good time to to transition to talking about your book. So here's the book right here, guys. It's in Days of Darkness, a manual for ordinary Christians facing unusual times. It is in the show notes, so you guys can check it out. And so I want to hit some so there's a very quotable things within the book which I think will allow us to talk about things in a larger topic as we we wind to a close in our interview. But a couple of quotes from the book. One is too many churches are built for peace time. That that's probably one of my favorite quotes of the book. Too many churches are built for peace time. And another quote that's that's attached to it is the persecuted church doesn't pray for persecution to end. They pray for strength to endure. Yeah. And so that's the thing that I that I see especially again here in America where there's a lot of soft persecution. We're not worried about someone, you know, like Boo Haram coming into our home church and running us all out of there or, you know, what happened to the top the Coptic Christians that were beheaded there on the beach, you know, in a line or, you know, that type of thing. We're not really worried about those things here. But gosh, I just got to say I super agreed with you whenever you were talking about that in the book because it's like we are so comfortable and a lot of people think it's like people don't know they're in a fight until they get punched in the nose. >> For me personally, Andy, I want to know I'm in a fight before I get punched in the nose cuz I've seen enough fights end after one punch that I'm not going to give somebody uh you know the chance to do that. I remember MMA fighter UFC fighter named Chel Sonnen. He's like, "The only people that agree with the the idea that don't be the first one to throw a punch are people that have never experienced violence before cuz the fight could be over after that first punch. >> I know I'm in a fight when you have entered my personal bubble of space where your fist can reach my face and you've got that look in your eye. In that moment, we're fighting and I'm trying to get the jump on you." But as a church, right? So you can maybe say capital church in the west, the capital W. Gosh, we're just not ready for it. And then if we feel a little bit of that persecution, Andy, we're just like, oh, just please stop. As opposed to like, no, like give me more endurance. Give me more ability to hold up under the weight of this bar. So, what say you to that? >> Well, Kyle, I think that is spot on. And that's one of the reasons why I am really impressed by your ministry, your work, and why I think it's very important is that this is something that a lot of men are coming to terms with. They look around and they realize that spiritually speaking, they may be soft. they may be unprepared and they're not exactly sure what to do. And in fact, that was one of the genesis uh markers for this book is I would go to these countries, I'd come back to Western countries and parents, dads, often a lot of times moms would pull me aside and be like, "Look, I don't even recognize my own culture in some respects. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to raise my kids." And so what we wanted to do, I I was able to talk with them in about five minutes. I could talk them down from the ledge. I could restabilize the horizon because what I was doing is I would just uh listen to what their concerns were and I recognized that it was the exact same card that was being played in a more mature fashion overseas, but it's the same trick that the enemy is trying to pull on us. I helped them to understand that. I gave them a couple tips on what I've seen work well overseas and they were better off. And so we do need to learn from that and especially men need to learn from that. There's a lot of young men who are coming to the church. They're coming to faith um from backgrounds that were radically opposed to Christianity. Something is going on. There's a lot of men that are stepping up and realizing that they have a responsibility uh to lead themselves well, to lead others well, to lead families well, and that they need help on that. And that's one of the beautiful things that the persecuted church has to offer us. They've been through this before. They know these tricks. They know how the enemy tries to to wiggle around. We don't recognize it. It's dark. And I love your your imagery because it's the same imagery that I'm pursuing of light pushing back darkness. That's what we're trying to do. And it looks really dark. It looks really alien in some settings for us. We don't know what to do, but they bring in a flashlight. They help us to walk out. And in the same way that at the Christian Emergency Alliance, we try to help them where they're really under fire. They're really helping us to prepare for what's coming. It's like when I went into boot camp, I I talked to a couple veterans. And they're like, "Look, when you go to boot camp, expect A, B, and C. A, B, and C is going to happen." And I did. I went in and I was a little bit more prepared. Did it make boot camp easy? No, it didn't make it easy, but it was way more palatable because I knew what to expect. Chinese Christians, the Chinese house churches have been growing for decades and they, this was decades ago that they had this problem, but people would come to faith and quickly encounter resistance and push back and persecution. And sometimes those new believers would walk and the Chinese house church leadership was like, "We got to fix this. We got to figure out a solution." So now at least with some of the lines when you have a brand new disciple, the very first lesson they get is on the basics of the gospel, the basics of the Christian life. Lesson number two, the second lesson they get is on pressure and persecution and how to wisely respond to that. And by encountering that early, it was almost like they were inoculating believers, inoculating new believers. So then when they did get roughed up, when they did have a hard time, >> they were like, "Oh, this is part for the course." They warned me that this would happen. They prepared me for this. And okay, this is just following Christ. >> Well, Andy, look, light is not the absence of darkness. Okay, but we somehow think it is. No, darkness is the absence of light. And so, if it's like if there is a place that needs light, you're the one called to do that. I remember this guy, he got so mad at me via email because he's like, "Hey man, I'm going to be going and ministering to uh the illegal immigrants at at Eagle Pass and sharing the gospel with them and I'm inviting you to come along with me, right?" And so I'm like, "Hey man, that that's great. Like I'm not going to be able to come down there and and help you. I got my own stuff going on, but dude, like all the power to you. Whatever I can do to help." And his response was, "Oh, fake podcaster. I give you an opportunity to share the real gospel and you just want to sit there behind your microphone." And I'm like, "Buddy, it's just not my race." >> Yeah. >> Right. My look, my race is my race. And my race is currently and mostly ran behind this microphone. It's going to have a large impact. And your race, what you're called to do is right there at Eagle Pass. And I would encourage you to do that. And whatever I can do to assist you with that that doesn't involve me uprooting my entire life and entire family to go down there to help you is what I'm here to do. Guys, there are places in your community, in your business, in your household, in your own self where there needs to be light, and you're the lightbringer, right? Or you're going to be pointing to the the guy that can bring the light, as it were, in a Christian sense. But Andy, we're we're running out of time here. So, I I do want to make this our last question of the day. A couple more quotes from the book that I think are appropriate uh to to help us with this conversation is what if God is calling you to stay in place even if it wasn't safe? Right? So, that's one thing. And the second thing is in the face of evil, neutrality is complicity. And so there are people that have this internal consternation of okay, do I stay and fight or do I flee and live? And this isn't, you know, I'm not talking about like in a brave heart sense, right? Because that's how where we always go in our brains. But there are times like Christians in California, Christians in Canada, like here here in the United States of America, they're like, "Wait, do I stay here and fight back against the school board or do I pull my kids out and homeschool them?" Right? Do I do I take the Benedict option as it were, which is basically nope, we're just going to create our own little communities and we're not going to be in uh these places where we need to be pushing back darkness, which you know, generically I'm not really a fan of. But there are a lot of people that don't really know what to do. But there are people that see evil, specifically maybe in their local school system, and they just try to stay neutral because they don't want to rock the boat. They don't want to get negative comments on Facebook. They don't want people to be seeing their face and then all a sudden they don't want to shop at their coffee shop anymore cuz they're like, "Wait, that bigot doesn't want gay porn in our libraries and in the public schools. I hate him now." So, what would you say to those people that are feeling some of those things, Andy? >> Well, here's what I would say is, you know, I would encourage you to pray. I would encourage you to seek the Lord's direction because he doesn't direct us all the same. We all may be facing elements of a hostile culture. That I think is true. And that's what we're trying to uparm Christians who are maybe soft, pudgy Christians today spiritually, but we're trying to harden them. So regardless if they are called to stay and plant a flag and not back up an inch, or if they're called to do a tactical retreat and land somewhere else with their family and shepherd and and spiritually fight there, then we want to equip them to do that. We need to spiritually harden one another, support one another, and recognize that people, like you said, have different callings. But that's beautiful. We have so many challenges facing us as a church. There are so many challenges in our countries, in our communities that it can seem overwhelming and but it's really not. We just need to be faithful with the little that we have, the leading that we have from the Lord and to strengthen and champion one anothers and to have strong connections as a spiritual body. Again, we are light that we we have to be in the public square. We have to push back against the darkness. That's honestly one of the reasons why we picked the cover of that book. That's actually an ancient painting or it's a few centuries old by Rimbrandt. And that is a picture. It's dark. You It's It's gloomy, but what that picture actually is, Rimbrandt painted that. It's of the young holy family. That is Joseph and Mary and young infant Jesus. And the painting is called Flight to Egypt. They're scared. They have been directed to flee and it looks dark and scary around. But you will also notice in that painting that light is penetrating that darkness. They're around a campfire. They're actually well taken care of. The Lord is on, you know, on the throne. He is directing their steps. God is directing them. God is present. And so even when it seems scary and challenging, we are serving a great good and righteous God who loves us, who loves the world, and who is doing something even with all the evil. He is performing, carrying out his own purposes, not just despite the evil, but sometimes because and in and through the evil. He's he's he's doing a judo flip on all of this. And we just have to be content and and lean into that to lean into those challenges. Recognize we have areas to gain spiritually. I hope this book helps a lot of people to do that. I hope it strengthens them in an easy digestible way that borrows lots of insights from those who have gone through this meat grinder for for decades or centuries. We need to learn from one another, strengthen one another, and and be content to to carry out our own missions, recognizing that others have been called out elsewhere. >> Well, Andy, I'm very appreciative of having guys like you in the fight, doing the things that you're doing. Thank you for the conversation that we had today. But that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> Nope. I just want to encourage the men out there. Um, God has a purpose just for you. Lean into that. Figure out what it is and strengthen yourself because others are counting on you. And uh we have a great uh adventure ahead of us. These are exciting times to be alive in and uh I'm just thankful to serve in the trenches with with men to the left and right of me. >> All right, thanks again Andy. >> Thanks Kyle. There you go guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Andy. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. I got two links for you today. I've got a link to the Amazon where you can go and get in the days of darkness or in days of darkness a manual for ordinary Christians facing unusual times and also a link to the Christian Emergency Alliance so you can check out Andy and all of their work. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undanton.life. That's info@undanton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [Music] [Music]