0:00
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:21
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:23
Let's get into it.
0:24
Our guys today have got special return guests to the podcast that is Brian Andrews and Jeff
0:27
Wilson.
0:28
They're normally called just Andrews and Wilson.
0:30
They are the best-selling co-author team of the tier one thriller series, Sons of Valor
0:34
and the Shepherd series, which includes their latest book, which is right here in front of
0:38
me.
0:39
I love it.
0:40
It is called Dark Fall.
0:41
So this is the third of six.
0:42
So they thought they were just doing one trilogy of this series, but it's going to be
0:45
going on to do a second trilogy.
0:47
So it's going to be six books in total.
0:48
Both of these guys are veterans of the United States military and they're veterans of this
0:51
podcast.
0:52
So if you want to hear their other interviews because we went over, you know, some of the
0:55
basic stuff and a lot of those other interviews, go back to episodes two 28.
0:58
It's 235 and 297.
1:00
So they've been on 228, 235 and 297.
1:03
So in this podcast, we, we talk about, you know, kind of what it's like being, you know,
1:06
a tandem team, like kind of what things look like whenever they're both writing.
1:10
I finally asked them like, Hey, how do you guys deal with conflict?
1:13
Because surely you write all these books together.
1:15
You can't always get along and always understand where the other person's coming from.
1:18
So how do you deal with that?
1:19
I really like their answer to that.
1:20
We dug into dark fall.
1:21
We dug into some really interesting things about like, Hey, what happens, you know, at the end
1:25
of this series?
1:26
It's planning to, you know, wrap it up in a nice, tight little bow.
1:29
Are we going to kind of wrap it up where it teases something else?
1:31
You know, are you going to leave people, you know, wanting more or you, you know, because
1:34
every show's a little different.
1:36
Every band's a little different.
1:37
Some people change their sound.
1:38
Some people change their feel.
1:39
And so we kind of get into that a little bit.
1:41
We also talk about men that don't read because that's one thing that is just, it's a dearth
1:44
in the Christian men's space and also these other spaces is these publishing houses know
1:48
that men don't read and how that puts you at such a disadvantage as a man.
1:52
We can talk about, you know, the fact that that's going to potentially, you know, help
1:56
you or lead to you maybe getting Alzheimer's or something like that to where you're not
1:59
going to be able to stave that off how you're not exercising your brain because you're too
2:03
busy exercising your body or you're exercising neither and then your, your brain basically
2:07
becomes mush over time because you're not testing yourself.
2:09
We get into all of that.
2:10
So I really, really enjoyed those guys.
2:12
They come on here.
2:13
They're going to come on here at least once a year because they're such prolific writers,
2:16
but we love having them on.
2:17
And before we get into the interview, just want to remind you guys that we are affiliated
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So guys, let's get Andrews and Wilson in here.
3:18
So without further ado, let's get into it.
3:21
Andrews and Wilson, welcome back to Undone to Life of Man's podcast.
3:24
Hey, man.
3:25
Good to see you again.
3:26
Glad to be here.
3:27
Thanks for having us.
3:28
That's, that's always the thing is I don't know what to say.
3:29
I don't know.
3:30
Do I say Andrews and Wilson?
3:31
Do I say Brian Andrews and Jeff Wilson, you know, which one are you talks first?
3:35
Like, y'all should be used to that by now though, because you keep getting stuck in the
3:38
same interview, you know, like, but who the heck is supposed to talk?
3:41
Like, how have y'all figured that out?
3:42
I mean, I guess the most comfortable thing is if you can just say Jeff and his assistant
3:46
or something, yeah, yeah, we can certainly make something like that work.
3:51
Brian, you should not accept this level of abuse.
3:53
I mean, you guys have been on the show.
3:54
I think this is a fourth time you've been on the show now.
3:56
So y'all should be, you know, veterans at this by now.
4:00
The thing that I do want to get into before we get into too much else is y'all were just
4:03
talking off air about a event that you have coming up that you guys are going to be speaking
4:07
at because guys, if you're listening to this on time, we're going to be talking about a
4:10
book, the new book that you guys just released, but there's something coming up here.
4:13
I don't know, I think it's within a week of when this episode is dropping.
4:16
So you guys tell me a little bit about that event and then we'll go from there.
4:19
Yeah.
4:20
So we're very excited.
4:21
We're going to be going to the battle scarred conference.
4:25
It's the first battle scarred conference for veterans at the Calvary Chapel out in Costa
4:30
Mesa, California.
4:33
And the goal here is really, I think, maybe threefold when she said, Jeff, I mean, a little
4:39
bit ambitious, it's not only just to bring veterans together, but it's to offer, you
4:45
know, a networking opportunity for guys to come together, but also an opportunity to
4:51
maybe start to address some of the things that they've been uncomfortable addressing,
4:55
maybe in their lives, talk about healing, talk about faith, talk about, you know, maybe
5:00
next steps, how you can leverage this community without sort of feeling shame or feeling uncomfortable
5:08
doing that.
5:09
Yeah.
5:10
We're excited to be part of it.
5:12
It's an honor to speak there, but I think what has impressed us the most is like Brian
5:16
was saying how broad their approach is.
5:19
It's not going to be, you know, church for veterans.
5:22
It's going to be very broad.
5:24
I'm not saying there's not going to be faith that's going to be brought forward.
5:27
As you know, Brian and I have a big passion for two things, which is veterans lifting
5:31
each other up in all circumstances and this idea of crisis and faith that we, you know,
5:36
put into the threads in our books and stuff.
5:38
And so all of that will be there, but how cool is it that they're bringing in all these
5:42
vendors, all these different resources, whether it's finding a business partner, whether it's
5:47
helped with transitioning from military to civilian, whether it's struggling with issues
5:52
of faith, struggling with PTS, whatever the military and veteran issue is, there's going
5:58
to be something represented here.
6:00
It's going to be very, very broad and it's focused.
6:02
It is ambitious.
6:03
Brian's right.
6:04
But a really cool way and I think the coolest thing about it is that it's an opportunity
6:10
for veterans and military members to come together in community because that's the first
6:15
step, no matter what the issue or even if there is no issue, moving on from the military
6:20
is often a struggle simply because of that loss of identity and community.
6:24
So if nothing else, come out, if you're in the Costa Mesa area, come out to this thing
6:28
and just be in community with your fellow service members, your fellow veterans and make some
6:33
new friends, make some new connections that can be networking, but also just friendships
6:38
and fellowship.
6:39
Yeah, so guys, that is November the 12th.
6:42
So if you're listening to this on time, that'll definitely apply to you.
6:45
And that's music to the ears of a lot of guys that listen to this show.
6:47
We have a lot of veterans.
6:48
We have a lot of active duty to listen to this.
6:50
And you know, a lot of these communities, even the greater community because I grew up
6:53
in Lawton, Fort Sill.
6:54
So even though I wasn't in the military, even though no one in my immediate family was in
6:58
the military, anytime something happened that affected the US military directly, it affected
7:02
us because we were part of the greater community.
7:04
And so there's a lot of value, not just for veterans to come out and get some stuff from
7:07
that, to their families, to the greater community.
7:09
I've definitely cosigned that.
7:11
Now we can't obviously rehash everything from every other episode that you guys have done
7:16
on this show.
7:17
I said in the intro, all the other episodes you guys have been on and all that, but for
7:19
those that are new to this, they're going to be surprised to know that there are people
7:23
out here writing these amazing novels, but doing it as a team because everyone's had
7:27
that horrible college experience where they were stuck on the team writing, you know, project
7:32
and they had to write something with multiple people.
7:34
The idea of writing something with somebody and having your career attached to it sounds
7:39
absolutely miserable.
7:40
Like I can't possibly imagine that, but that's what you guys do.
7:43
You've been doing this for a very, very long time now.
7:45
So as a way of introduction to you guys as writers, how in the world does that work?
7:49
How do y'all co-write these great novels?
7:51
It's just like in school, it's just like in school where there's that one guy that does
7:55
nothing and someone does, so Brian does all the work, and then what I do is I go on interviews
8:00
and take all the credit.
8:02
Excellent.
8:03
And we get the same grade because it's a group about it.
8:06
That's right.
8:07
So, you know, we were talking just a moment ago with this appearance that we're doing
8:11
about military life and the fellowship of military members, and that's really the secret sauce
8:17
to us as a writing team.
8:18
When you say Brian, it's that team admission before self, there's no ego involved, there's
8:24
no my chapter, your chapter, my character, your character.
8:28
We just come together as men and military men and try to accomplish the mission of telling
8:35
a great story.
8:37
And if you start from there, then all the difficulty you remember from college being
8:42
in on that group project, it all disappears because we both take equal responsibility for
8:47
one another and for the project.
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9:26
Well, I appreciate that, Jeff, and before you hop in here, Brian, I have kind of a followable
9:29
in that because you guys understand rhythms and momentum and things like that.
9:34
What happens, I don't know if this has ever happened because you said you don't say, hey,
9:38
you write the odd number chapters, I'll write the even number chapters, but what if one of
9:41
them is negative, maybe more at that moment, maybe the other guys got a little bit of writer's
9:45
block going on.
9:46
Do y'all ever have these moments where one guy is basically taking a huge chunk of stuff
9:50
in the row because for whatever reason they understand this part of the narrative better
9:53
or am I making this a little bit too Hollywood?
9:55
No, I think that's real life and because we're writing multiple series, there's an added
10:01
complexity of we always have three books in various stages of production.
10:07
So, a perfect example of that is we're just working on finishing Sons of Valor III.
10:15
And so, we're working with a great developmental editor and he pointed out some areas where
10:19
he thought maybe we could punch up some elements in this story, maybe add some additional material
10:26
at the end of the book.
10:27
So, Jeff's like, all right, I'm going to take this and he took that assignment, I guess,
10:35
shall we say, he took that assignment.
10:38
And while he's working on that, I'm working on my chapters in the Shepherd's Book 4,
10:46
which is called Dark Rising, and that will be coming out about 14 months after Dark Fall.
10:55
But like you said, maybe I picked up a couple extra chapters that I didn't think I'd be
11:00
working on, and so I had some flow going in that narrative that he wasn't a part of.
11:08
Now he's back, I caught him up on what I did, and he's back and we're back co-writing
11:14
on that book.
11:16
But the reverse of that can happen too, or maybe I have to step away and he has to carry
11:20
the load on the new book.
11:21
Yeah, and that distribution of labor I think is the key to our success because we don't
11:27
ever look at it as well.
11:28
I wrote 12 pages and you wrote nine, and first of all, there's so much to do with multiple
11:33
series that we're both working all day every day, but I don't think that there's ever any
11:38
page counting or word counting or, you know, I did this while you did that.
11:43
You edited last time, so I'm going to edit this time.
11:46
We don't do that.
11:47
It's just like, here's the mission for the day, here's what needs to be done, what's
11:50
the most efficient way to do it, and there are times when I have to say, look, Brian's
11:54
going to do a better job because what needs to be done on this part, he's just better
11:57
at that, and so I'm going to have to do this thing that maybe I don't want to do because
12:01
I want it to be efficient and he's going to do better, he'll be faster or whatever.
12:05
So there's just a little bit of self-awareness I think is required too, say, look, I don't
12:10
want to do this, but I'm better at this, and so it'll be faster if I do it, and so Brian,
12:15
you get to write the chapter that I fell in love with and I wanted to write.
12:18
That actually literally just happened, right?
12:20
While I was doing these edits, he wrote this chapter that I was so excited about, but it
12:25
doesn't matter, like it's a great, it turned out exactly the way I would have done it probably
12:30
anyway, it's perfect, it's going to be great, all the work got done, and that's what matters.
12:35
Well, I wonder if now would be a good time for us all to put the masks down, you've been
12:39
on this podcast for a long time, you've been very diplomatic in your answers, I want to
12:43
know, I want to know what happens when there's conflict, and I mean real conflict, where it's
12:47
like, no, this is my chapter, I'm clearly better than you at this exact moment, or just something
12:53
to where like literally there's just a creative difference where you think, you know, the series
12:58
should go in this direction, it should bend towards this narrative arc for this character
13:02
and yada, yada, yada, like, how do you figure that out?
13:05
Because obviously you guys work as a 50/50 team, there's nobody with 51% ownership of
13:09
the Andrews and Wilson name as far as I know.
13:11
So it's not like either one of you has a ace of spades or a trump card, as it were, but
13:15
like, how does conflict work?
13:17
Because you're not going to lie to me and tell me you haven't had any, so tell me how
13:20
you work through it.
13:21
So it's a great question and it's going to be a bit of a disappointing answer because
13:26
it's not that we've never disagreed, but I can honestly say we've never had conflict
13:30
in that disagreement.
13:31
So here's the way we handle it.
13:33
First of all you have to understand that writing a book, when you write a book, you're just
13:39
starting when you're done, because real novels become beautiful in the editing phase, right?
13:45
And you know that, you've done a lot of writing.
13:47
So that's the first thing I'll say is that we don't worry about like, if you're wrong,
13:53
it's not the end of the universe, right?
13:55
So there have been times for sure.
13:57
I think Brian had backed me up on this one where like he thinks it should go in this direction,
14:01
we think it should go in that, I think it should go in that other direction.
14:04
And so we'll get on a call, we'll get on a Zoom, we'll chat about it, he'll make his
14:08
case and I'll make my case.
14:09
The way we generally do it is so far there's never been one where he passionately thinks
14:14
it's the one thing and I passionately feel the other way, you know, he might say, well,
14:18
I'm not sure that's the right direction, but you seem very passionate about it.
14:22
So let's do it and if it's terrible, we'll change it, like it's not irrevocable.
14:28
And so we approach it from that attitude of like, this seems like you feel pretty strongly
14:32
about this, let's do it your way and if it sucks, we'll change it.
14:37
And so I can't think of an example, Brian, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure that
14:42
there's ever been a time where we've come to that point where it's like, okay, you seem
14:46
to think that's going to work, I disagree, let's go your way.
14:49
Have we ever done that and then changed it back?
14:52
If so, I can't think.
14:53
You never changed it back, but I think it's worth getting into maybe some of the meat.
14:58
I know what Kyle wants to go with this and so maybe we take it to the next level, which
15:02
is sort of, you know, you want to know how we resolve conflict.
15:05
And I think one of the important things to recognize is that we're both guys that are
15:10
in our mid-career and I think we have learned independently, maybe even before we started
15:16
working together, that losing your temper and, you know, butting heads for us in our
15:23
personality types, that is not effective for conflict resolution.
15:28
So I think, you know, I can think of a couple examples, Jeff, where we've been upset with
15:34
third parties and you and I have ventilated to each other and, you know, we've maybe
15:39
lost our temper, you know, saying, "I can't believe this person said this or did that."
15:44
And what we sort of do is we collectively walk each other back from the cliff and we
15:50
calm down the other guy or maybe we both calm down.
15:55
And then once the cool heads have sort of taken over, we either craft that email or
16:00
we come up with this strategy for how we're going to go back to that person.
16:04
And I think one of the really beautiful things about our working relationship, our partnership,
16:09
is we realize we're not going to come at the other guy like that.
16:12
So if we're frustrated or if there's something we're not sure of, I think we've taken the
16:16
tact of, you know, yelling at Jeff or him yelling at me about something that, like he said,
16:22
is probably not a big deal, like in the grand scheme of things, doesn't really deserve to
16:28
get upset about.
16:29
You know, we walk that back. And so I think that element of conflict resolution is probably
16:35
worth talking about, you know, when you feel like I need to go at somebody, how do you pull
16:41
yourself back, collect your thoughts, and make a more reasonable argument?
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I got to be honest, I couldn't be more disappointed in y'all's answers.
17:18
It was like an arm wrestling match. Seriously something. Go to the range of whoever has
17:26
the highest score. That would be so much of a better story. Literally. No one cares
17:31
to watch the movie that has no conflict in it where it's like everyone just is in love
17:35
and stays in love. It's super boring. So by the next time you guys come on here, we need
17:39
some knockdown drag. We need a black eye or a missing tooth or something.
17:43
It's in the book. That's fine. Let's move on to some less lame stuff than that. All right,
17:50
so let's talk about the latest book. But before we talk about Darkfall, we need to talk about
17:54
the Shepherds series. So the Shepherds series is one of the series that you guys have done.
17:58
You mentioned a few others there. So just to catch readers up, if they're not, you know,
18:02
we've got a lot of new listeners even in the last few months, maybe they've never heard
18:05
of it. So let's talk about the Shepherds series. What is the Shepherds series about?
18:09
Well, the Shepherds series is sort of at Andrews and Wilson. If you know Andrews and Wilson,
18:13
if you've read Tier 1, if you've read Sons of Valor, if you've read any of our other
18:17
stuff, I think that there's a certain expectation of what that brand implies. And I think that
18:22
when people see that it's published by Tyndale House, some people go, "Oh, I wonder if I'm
18:26
going to get Andrews and Wilson?" And the answer is you are. So, you know, there's been,
18:31
this is a faith-based series. It's published by Tyndale House, one of the largest Christian
18:35
fiction publishers in the world. And I think that there are people that go, "Oh, I wonder
18:40
what I'm going to get here." There is a changing face of Christian fiction, and we're part
18:45
of it, and we're so excited to be part of the pointy tip of that spear, because people
18:51
are realizing that you don't have to have the woman in the bonnet on the back of a wagon
18:55
on the cover of every Christian book, that Christians will also read action adventure.
19:01
And this is a book that it can appeal to people at any level of faith and of any faith, because
19:06
it asks universal questions. So, this is the Shepard series has all the Andrews and Wilson
19:12
covert operations and special operations combat scenes, but with an additional element of
19:18
two things that are important to us. One, we talked about it at the beginning of the
19:21
show, our passion for helping men that are in a crisis of faith. So, we have a main character
19:27
who struggles with that, someone who is faced real evil, and is not sure what he thinks
19:31
about this whole God thing anymore, even though he used to have a passion for it. And the
19:35
other thing that has been really fun for us is we have some very speculative supernatural
19:40
spiritual warfare elements in this book, which is a little bit new for our brand, but it's
19:45
done in a way that is, you know, just sort of folds into that special operations thing.
19:50
So that's sort of the 30,000 foot view of what shepherds was set out to do. I'll let Brian
19:55
tell a little more details about what the shepherds is.
19:59
Yeah, so I think, you know, this was born from the idea that, you know, are there things
20:08
happening behind the scenes that you don't see? Are there evil forces and good forces
20:13
at work, not pulling the strings, but maybe trying to influence outcomes? And so we played
20:18
around with that idea. And the shepherds is an organization that's been around for centuries
20:23
operating with the knowledge that, you know, evil is trying to move chess pieces on the
20:29
board. And that, you know, you just can't stop that necessarily by, you know, getting
20:34
on your knees and praying that, you know, certain threats require strength and action
20:40
to operate against and to stop. And so the shepherds organization is sort of the metaphors
20:47
just in the name. You know, the shepherds are the guys with the stick that are willing
20:52
to step up and risk their lives to protect the flock. And the flock is everybody else
20:57
who doesn't know what's going on. And maybe the people that don't want to fight or aren't
21:01
equipped to fight. That's what the shepherds are. And what's fun with this series is,
21:07
you know, us trying to figure out how would this work in real life? And if you were facing
21:13
some supernatural evil threats, you know, what are the tools in your tool bag and what are
21:18
the skill sets which you need to develop and what allies could you recruit in that, you
21:23
know, sort of secret war that's going on behind the scenes. So it's very rich universe. It's
21:28
world building, lots of big cast of characters, cool stuff.
21:33
So with that in mind, this is the third books I might as well show it on screen. So this
21:37
is dark fall. So this is the third installment of the series. And so we've got dark intercept,
21:42
dark angel and now dark fall. And so talk to me a little bit about the trajectory of where
21:47
this is going. So because, you know, the first two in the series have a definite kind of
21:51
feel and theme to them in dark fall. It's a little bit different. Is that indicative
21:55
of where this series is going? You know, can you tell us like how many books are going
21:59
to be in this series? And I guess just overall, what can fans expect from dark fall?
22:03
Well, we write all of these, not all of them, but most of our series we like to write in
22:09
trilogies, and they can be, you know, back-to-back trilogies. But it's a lot more fun for us to take
22:17
the arcs of the characters through more than one book. Because in real life, bad guys don't
22:22
just appear and then conveniently die for you at the end of, you know, one engagement.
22:27
So what we do in dark intercept is really set the stage. And by the end of that book,
22:35
you know, you're aware of, okay, the shepherds exist and, you know, maybe a jet is going
22:40
to have opportunity to work with these guys. And Dark Angel, he goes into the organization.
22:45
He realizes, oh, he gets a peek behind the curtain. I see there's a lot more going on
22:50
here than I thought. And then dark fall is really sort of that closing of that first
22:54
trilogy with Victor as the villain. And we like to say that dark fall is sort of like
23:00
our return of the Jedi. You know, it's like the bad guys have woken up to, oh boy, you
23:06
know, the good guys are really coming after us. And we need to take it to the next level.
23:10
And the good guys are maybe caught on their back foot a little bit. And when the fight
23:14
is taken to their home, you know, suddenly it feels very bleak, very, very bad. And we
23:23
have an epic ending in this book that we're really excited about.
23:26
Yeah, I think it's one of the most exciting climax sequences we've written. It's really,
23:31
really powerful. And all the characters have an arc that sort of doesn't resolve, but comes
23:36
to a point of satisfaction at the end of this third book. And there will be more books.
23:42
We've signed an additional three book deal. There'll be at least six. And I think we mentioned
23:47
to you before that it's been option for television. So that's a development. So for sure that
23:52
things got some legs and we'll be doing some more, but we will be, and I think this might
23:56
be what you were hitting at, we will be pivoting in book four. We've sort of taken ourselves
24:00
on this big journey of where is jet going? Is he going to be able to find his faith?
24:04
Is he going to be able to find the strength he needs to live and work in this environment?
24:09
What about Sarah Beth? What about David and Rachel? How will this all come together as
24:13
a team? And all of that is answered in book three, which is really a launching point for
24:17
now where this team and unit can go next, which is fun. And we're excited about it simply
24:23
because that's our current work in progress. We're wrapping up probably over the next 10
24:28
days, the rough draft, the first draft of, uh, of dark rising, which is the fourth book
24:32
in the series.
24:33
Very cool. There's your breaking news guys. You already know what the name of the fourth
24:36
one's going to be. But so, so with that in mind, I'm always curious for creators like
24:40
yourself because, okay, so you know, you have six of these in mind and you're, you're technically
24:44
a little bit over halfway there, as you just said. So any, I mean, you guys can change
24:49
your minds and maybe you can just tell me just generally what you think about this. But
24:52
there are people that love when the television series or the book series or whatever has
24:57
a nice tidy ending at the end. So for you guys, it would be at the end of the sixth book
25:02
to where every character arc has has come back to the ground. There's, there's resolution
25:07
for everybody. That doesn't mean that everybody's dead or everybody's living alone in the meadow
25:12
and having a great time or whatever the thing is, right? But then there are other people
25:16
that they love to just make everyone angry and they love watching the world burn and
25:21
they just leave it like the end of the Sopranos where it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
25:25
Did my TV just cut out? Like, is he dead? Is he alive? Like there's always this angst
25:29
that you leave. And sometimes that leads the fans of that series that want more that aren't
25:34
going to get any more to go back and reread or rewatch or any of those things. Can y'all
25:38
give us a hint as to what you're feeling it's going to be like with this series? Are you
25:42
going to leave us happy or sad? Well, I'll tell you, I can tell you this in general terms.
25:46
And, and I think that you'll always be happy, of course, but here's the, here's the important
25:52
thing. And this is part of the art of writing series. We, and we actually lecture and talk
25:57
about this at writing conferences a lot. The art of series compared to a standalone book
26:02
is if you have a series, you need to do two things with every single book. You must set
26:08
the stage and stimulate interest in where the story will go next. But you can't do that
26:15
going to commercial cliffhanger in every book because it's just simply [inaudible] people off,
26:20
including me, right? So, so you have to, each book must be a standalone book where there
26:25
is resolution of some major arc of that book. And then it can also have another thread that
26:32
you know is going to go into this. So you can leave a cliffhanger about what's happening
26:35
next, but you must have resolution and satisfaction at the end of every book. And I think that's
26:40
true in our genre, maybe more than any other genre. But what we try to do and what the secret
26:46
to what we've done in tier one, for example, is, is we don't mind bringing in new characters,
26:52
bringing characters that are main characters and putting them in the background for a couple
26:56
of books or even, God forbid, we've done this too, killing them off. And now they've got
27:00
new people and new organizations, new allies, new enemies. And so by bringing people in,
27:07
so let's say you have a three book trilogy, well, during those three books, there might
27:10
be one main bad guy that's not going to resolve until the end, but others have come and gone
27:15
and new good guys have come and gone. So we want each book to stand alone. We want each
27:20
trilogy to sort of feel satisfying. And we want the whole series to feel like it flows
27:24
one book to the other, but you feel satisfied when you close the book at every page. So
27:29
all of that to say this, I think that most readers are happy at the end of all the books
27:34
because there is a resolution and a feel that good is triumphed over evil, but not that
27:39
naive thing that now evil is gone, right? Because that's not the world we live in. We
27:44
want people to understand there will be another challenge for these characters. There is another
27:48
challenge for us and our society just because we win one victory doesn't mean evil is going
27:53
to leave us alone now. And that's sort of what we try to do here. Is that sort of answer
27:58
your question without giving anything away? Yeah, absolutely. Because you know, philosophically
28:02
it's different for everybody because again, your audience is not always going to want
28:05
the same thing from you guys. And then it's kind of the same thing with music. Music's
28:09
probably a little bit easier for me to think about. So you have your favorite band, but
28:13
if you found them with their first album, and if any point down the road, they changed
28:17
their sound, you're like, well, that's almost like an affront to who you are as a person.
28:21
Like, like Metallica is kind of kind of one of those because, you know, you have kill
28:25
them all and then you have ride the lightning and master of puppets. And then you got to
28:29
injustice for all black album and the black album started chill out. And then they did
28:32
fuel and refuel and everyone's like, wait a minute. Is this the same band? They cut their
28:35
hair and they took it as a personal front, whereas a lot of other people are like, Hey,
28:39
this is great. It's showing me their range. It's, you know, a comedic actor doing a dramatic
28:43
role type thing. And would you say, would you kind of cosign the same things that Jeff
28:46
said, Brian? Yeah, and I think, you know, we, we tend to look at our characters, you can
28:51
think about your own life, you could say, okay, well, you know, I, I was this person
28:56
as I went to high school. And then if you, if you go to college, it's another set of
29:00
adventures. And then maybe you meet somebody and you get married. And now you're married
29:04
for a while and that stage your life. And then you have a child and that brings new challenges.
29:09
And then you raise that child and they get to high school and a whole new set of challenges.
29:13
And we look at our characters like that, they're going through their lives facing challenges
29:18
and just because something was resolved doesn't mean that they stop living. Right. The, the
29:25
next thing, the next evolution of their career and their personal life is going unfold. And
29:32
I think for us, that is really appealing because that's why we're telling stories. We're not
29:38
telling stories because it's a one and done. We're telling a story because we care about
29:43
these people who are interested to see what happens to them next and how do they face different
29:48
challenges as they gain and lose things over the course of the series. And that's, that's
29:56
a little different in our genre. I think it's one of the things that sets us apart in our
29:59
genres. You know, a lot of iconic characters, and I love both ways to do it. I'm, that this
30:04
not a one is better than the other. But a lot of iconic characters, they're the same
30:07
in book one as they are in book 19. They don't change. It's a new challenge, a new story.
30:13
But you know exactly what that guy's going to do because, and you love it because you
30:16
love that character. We do it a little differently. And that's a little unusual in the thriller
30:20
genre in that our characters change and evolve over time. John Dempsey in book seven, which
30:27
comes out in February, he is not that dude you met in book one. And most people noticed
30:31
in book four, he wasn't the same. Well, he's not the same as he was in book seven. And as
30:35
a writer, as a creative type, that's fun and exciting. And hopefully it is for the reader
30:40
too. But it's fun to be able to grow these people and have them change over time. I'm
30:45
not the same as I was in 2006, 2005 in my first deployment. I'm not the same as I was
30:51
then. So right, why should our characters be stagnant? But it gives you more fodder too.
30:55
More exciting relationships, characters, that sort of thing. Well, the interesting thing
30:59
about that as well is there's still some core elements of who that person is. They're just
31:05
acting them out differently. So to use another, another music example. So this is an obscure
31:10
band that non, not all people know about, but it's band called he is legend. And if you
31:14
listen to however many albums they have now six or seven or whatever, they if you're an
31:18
unskilled listener of that band, then you're going to think it's seven different bands.
31:23
But if you if you listen to that band, you like that band, there's enough elements to
31:26
be like, Whoa, this this is so different and so weird. But that's definitely he is legend.
31:30
And that's how it feels with some of these books. Like it's it's going to get stagnant.
31:34
If you get to book six, and it's the same jet, you know, it's the same guy doing some
31:38
of the same stuff, you know, solving some of the same problems. So this next question
31:42
here, actually, I'm gonna do something that I've never done on my podcast before. So we're
31:46
breaking new ground here. But this is a shout out to Amanda Woods over there at Tindale.
31:50
Okay. So one thing that they do is whenever they send you the advanced copy of the book,
31:54
they send you a little cheat sheet if you're lazy, right? And so this is a cheat sheet gives
31:58
you like, you know, 10 15 questions to ask if you're the lazy person that doesn't want
32:02
to read the book and doesn't really care about the interview or anything like that. So I
32:05
purposely never look at the sheet at all. But for whatever reason, I glanced at it this
32:10
time. And the very last question on here, I don't know if Amanda wrote it or not, I'm
32:13
giving her credit. I loved this last question. So I'm gonna ask it to you guys and hopefully
32:17
you haven't been asked it before, but I'll read it straight off the sheet. And now we're
32:20
wishing that we paid attention to Amanda's email. She did this. So part of the reason
32:28
why I do that, where I don't read these canned questions is because the answers from the
32:32
people I'm interviewing, they come off to slick, they come off too smooth to plan. And I don't
32:36
like that very much. I like, you know, kind of them figuring it out as they're talking.
32:39
So let me read it right off here. All right. When readers turn the last page of this series,
32:43
how do you hope that they feel what new idea or lesson do you hope they carry with them?
32:49
So I love that question because there are movies like we've already talked about there
32:52
are movies or series or books or whatever, any form of entertainment where you get to
32:56
the end and you feel something, anger, disappointment, sadness, satisfaction, something like that.
33:02
And everyone, this is somewhat related to the last question, but I really want to key
33:05
on that word feel. So let's just keep it to dark fall, then not necessarily the series.
33:10
But when they turn the last page on dark fall, what do each one of you wish that your reader
33:14
would feel? Well, one of the big themes of dark fall, and since you read it, you'll know
33:20
this, is this idea that, you know, the community is stronger than the individual, right? So
33:29
as you get to the end of the book, and this isn't the spoiler, but our characters realize
33:34
that, you know, evil really wants you to feel alone, and that you're having to take the
33:40
hill by yourself, and they try to put blinders on you. It tries to put blinders on you,
33:45
so you feel like you're alone in this battle. And the fact is, you're only alone if you
33:51
choose to be alone. So what the characters realize is, maybe I can't win by myself, but
33:58
if I team up with my bros, and my sisters, and my brothers, and my community, my family,
34:04
I'm much stronger. So that's what I want people to take away from, is this metaphor
34:09
of the bundle of sticks. Maybe you can break one stick easily, but the bundle of sticks
34:14
is too hard to break. I like that answer a lot. Now mine feels like childish, but because
34:22
that's something that we talk about, both in and out of our writing, you know, Brian's
34:26
answer is right out of the veteran's ministry, right? It's right what we try to teach people
34:32
that community is the key to the whole thing. You know, I know at your church, you and I
34:35
talked about this before, Kyle, but it's all about groups, right? Like Sunday's great,
34:40
praise and worship is awesome, and the message is important, but it's really about the relationships.
34:46
It's about that acts to church living out your faith together. So that's a great answer.
34:51
I would say that the other thing, so I'm not going to compete with that, but the other
34:55
thing that I want people to get, because we're writing about the nature of good and evil,
35:00
we're writing about it in a very intense in your face way that can be disturbing at times.
35:06
I hope that at the end of each book, but most especially this book, Dark Fall, that people
35:11
walk away with a sense of hope. You know, we've all read the book and we know how it ends,
35:16
but that doesn't change. I'm going to talk about our books. We're talking about the Bible.
35:19
We all know how that book ends. And so that's hope, but that doesn't change the suck that
35:25
you're in right now, does it? And so I want people to take away that sense of hope that
35:30
when you are responsive, when you're in community, when you're doing the right thing, when you
35:35
choose the hard right over the easy wrong, have hope to know that good does triumph over evil,
35:42
even though it looks for all the world, like that's not the case at times in our world,
35:47
it is. And so that's the hope I hope people take away.
35:50
Well, and Jeff, that's a great answer. Brian, yours was as well. What comes through with both
35:54
of your answers are things that speak to the core, to the soul, to the heart of a man. And
36:00
what we know and what everybody attend, Dale and everybody at any publishing house knows
36:04
is that men don't read books for whatever reason, especially Christian men. That is like a dearth.
36:09
There's wild at heart, which sold over a million copies. And then there's everyone else's crappy
36:13
version trying to be the next wild at heart, right? And it's like men, it's they just don't care,
36:18
or they pretend to be too busy or whatever. But I got to be honest with you guys, and this is
36:22
different for you. And it's different for me. You know, I've read close to 50 books so far this year,
36:25
that's going to be a record for me. But I talked to these guys that just don't read. And when you
36:31
bring it up to them, they look at you like you're the weirdo, because it's like, you know, I remember
36:36
a buddy of mine back in the day, he's like, there's two kinds of people in this world. There are
36:39
readers, and then there are morons. And so it's just like, but most guys don't, they don't buy into
36:44
that. They don't agree with that. They're just like, Hey, man, I've got another fancy football
36:47
draft coming up. You know, I need to, you know, spend some time trying to get to the next level,
36:51
whatever video game, you know, they're not going to tell you this, but it's like, Hey, I spent way
36:54
too much time looking at porn and masturbating. You know, they've got all these other things,
36:59
and they love to blame it on somebody else. I would read more, but my work, I would read more,
37:03
but my business, I would read more, but my kids, I would read more, but my wife, like, they always
37:07
do that. So I guess this is almost like me imploring you guys to give a pitch to people in my audience.
37:12
Now, if you're in my audience, and you don't read, you're literally a moron, and we don't need you
37:15
here. What that for what it's worth. Good marketing. Yeah, exactly. I'm great. I don't want you listening
37:22
to my show anymore. Go away. But like, give me a sense of why you think that is why men don't read,
37:28
and then give us a pitch as to why we should. I think they I think men make more excuses about
37:32
reading than women. That's true. I that we know that statistically, you know, if you look at and
37:38
even in this series, it's a very action adventure series, give an enormous amount of female readers,
37:43
because they're the readers, right? So my pitch for reading is this. All of us, you know, even the
37:49
guys that don't read, they go and sit, and they go watch the Reacher series on Prime, right? And
37:55
they're going to watch Jack Ryan, and they're going to go to the next born movie. And so it's
38:00
not that they don't like to escape into another universe and be entertained, but they just don't,
38:06
either they haven't read the right stuff, or they don't understand that that's what it is. We're
38:10
not trying to teach you stuff. That's not what writers are trying to do. We're trying to entertain
38:15
you just like a film producer. And a really good book is really entertaining. It's an opportunity
38:22
to escape into a universe, to learn some things about things that you haven't experienced yourself.
38:27
But I would say to experience those things, a good writer can actually have you experience
38:33
the things with their character. And just as a as a side note to the Christian fiction side,
38:39
those people that are going to be convinced to read because of that pitch are still
38:42
not going to read Christian fiction, because they're like, I don't want to be preached to.
38:45
This is a new breed of Christian fiction. And I really want to give my second shout out,
38:50
I know, to Tindale House for embracing this with us. I'm a Christian man, and I went to the last
38:56
born movie. I still like to be entertained. I like Manly stuff, and I like, you know, gritty
39:01
adventure. And then it is out there. And that's what this series is. And we're not the only ones
39:06
doing it. We're among the, I guess we're sort of pioneers. There's only a few doing it right now,
39:10
but it is growing. So go out and read and be entertained, escape into the entertaining
39:15
universe of somebody else's experience. And don't be afraid to to dip your toe into the
39:20
into the faith based fiction, because it's not like it was 10 years ago. That's for sure.
39:24
What did I miss, Brian? No, I love that answer. I love that answer. I mean, the only the only other
39:30
thing I would say maybe is it's, it might sound ironic, but as a reader, you actually have a lot
39:37
more control over the experience than you do as a television watcher. And what I mean by that is,
39:42
you know, when you turn on the TV, you pretty much have to watch the thing start to finish,
39:47
and all the visuals, the story is put into you're very, it's a very passive way to consume the content.
39:55
It's fun. It's easy, but it's pretty passive. When you pick up a book, the first thing that
40:01
happens is you start to realize, wow, like, I'm picturing these characters and I'm imagining
40:08
this entire universe unfolded. You have some agency and you also have a
40:14
strangely, I think you have a relationship with those characters. It's almost like a very
40:21
intimate experience, because now like you're in the heads of these characters, you're really
40:27
seeing the world and tackling the problems through their eyes. That is not something that happens
40:32
in film and television. You don't get internal monologue. You're watching an actor do it,
40:38
whereas in a story, I think you have more personal stakes. We write our books that way so that you
40:43
feel like you are going through the struggles and tribulations with the actual characters.
40:49
And so I think what's kind of cool is you're right, Kyle. We don't have as many male readers as we do,
40:56
but when you see their reviews, they're like, wow, I did not expect that. I did not expect
41:03
to feel this way. I'm starting the next book right away. So yeah, take a chance to maybe
41:09
disconnect from the television or from your computer. It's a quiet personal experience
41:16
when you read a book very different. So with that in mind, we'll make this the last question
41:21
of the day. So I know some people struggle with fiction. Some people struggle with nonfiction.
41:24
People are kind of all over the place. But I know both of you guys personally have some very strong
41:28
feelings about a lot of things that are currently happening in this country, whether that, you know,
41:32
and we won't name any by name, but there's a lot of things that people know that are going on right
41:37
now that are affecting the church that are affecting the American family that are affecting the American
41:42
dream, the American way of life, the West in general. And you could really extrapolate that all out
41:47
and get really, really ethereal with everything. So can supporters of you guys ever expect either
41:52
one of you to kind of venture more so into the nonfiction space where you take on some of these
41:57
manhood issues and these soul level society level issues and kind of come out of the world of fiction
42:02
for a bit. I don't think I don't see a nonfiction book other than the one we've been toying around
42:09
with about leadership and being a leader in your business and in your family and your church and
42:14
your community. That's something that we've talked about. But I will say that like our fiction,
42:19
it's going to be about coming together. Like I think that we all three have very strong opinions
42:26
on lots of things that are going on in the world. But diving in with that strong opinion and being
42:32
the two millionth voice in that debate, we don't see as very beneficial. What we prefer to do is
42:39
we prefer to focus on the things that bring people together, not saying that we shy away
42:44
from heart issues, but we do it in a different way. And so if we were to do nonfiction, it would be
42:49
with that with that bent. I will say that we are very active in that space of sharing experiences
42:56
with, especially with men tends to be more focused because of our military background. But we share
43:04
those things intimately in those settings. We gave a message at Grace Family Church recently.
43:10
We're going to coast to Mason. We're going to share a very powerful message, I hope,
43:13
about how to find peace for yourself after combat service. And so we do tackle those things,
43:19
but it's just a different venue. Other than leadership, book Brian, is there anything else
43:24
to you? Well, I guess, you know, no, I don't, I have nothing to add to that other than to say,
43:28
you know, one thing that weighs a little heavy on my soul or my heart a little bit is, you know,
43:34
where we are writing action, adventure, there's violence in our books. And it's a form of escapism.
43:41
But both Jeff and I have had events not that not happened to us, but that we witnessed recently in
43:48
our communities where men escalated to violence and conducted violence on their neighbor
43:55
instead of just talking it out or having a more mature conflict resolution. And so,
44:03
yes, in the shepherd series, we have good guys fighting demon-possessed people with weapons.
44:10
But you don't solve your disagreement with your neighbor by pulling out your peace
44:18
or by slamming their head into the concrete because they didn't agree with you on the PTA or something
44:23
like that. So I'm concerned that, you know, we're starting to look at violence as an acceptable
44:31
means of conflict resolution in cases where violence is not necessary. So I don't know how
44:38
we walk ourselves back from that, but I think it's incumbent upon people like the two of us who
44:44
are speaking and cow on your show that we remind people that we as a man, you have an obligation to
44:53
think with all parts of your brain and not be so reactive, always resort to violence.
44:58
Yeah, not be so reactive that you default to that because, you know, you talk to people that are
45:02
concealed carry people that don't know how to fight with their hands. Well, because they don't
45:06
know how to fight with their hands, they're going to be more apt to grab their firearm or their
45:10
pistol or something to end a conflict of some kind. They're not learning the other skills that are
45:15
involved with that because if you're going to be a concealed carrier, obviously need to make sure
45:19
that it's a last ditch, you know, last resort before you go to something like that, if you can spare
45:25
human life in some way, shape or form. And I think that that's a good word for a lot of people because
45:28
as we as we go through this world, there's nothing virtuous about a weak man, but the society is
45:33
trying to tell us that that's a virtuous man. No, a man that's incapable of violence is not
45:38
a virtuous man. He's a useless man. But if you are able to be truly meek in the true words of what
45:44
meek was supposed to mean, even in our modern parlance, is where you have a tremendous amount
45:49
of violent capability, but you leave it sheathed until it's necessary. You leave the short in the
45:54
sheath until it's absolutely and completely necessary. And I feel like right now we have a
45:58
society that's trying to tell people don't be violent for any reason whatsoever, ever, and
46:02
that's virtuous. And then you have the other side, which is like, go looking for it, go knocking
46:06
down doors if you need to find it. But if I go any further, I'm going to start, you know,
46:09
vandalizing and, you know, preaching and doing different things like that. But guys, I'm so
46:13
happy to have you on the show every time you come on. I'm big fans of you both and of the work that
46:17
you put out there. And especially for the Christians that want something that's kind of in that exciting
46:23
vein of fiction, but it's coming from a better worldview than maybe some of the stuff that they're
46:27
going to be getting on the marketplace. I think it's great. But that's all for me. Is there anything
46:30
else either one of you want to get off your chest? No, but thank you so much for this. And thank you
46:34
for the last comment. I would add one thing to your last comment without setting us off on that
46:39
path. And that is I love that analogy of if you're carrying a concealed weapon, you better know how
46:44
to fight so you don't have to use it. I would say you got to continue that all the way to the left.
46:48
If you know how to fight and you carry concealed weapon, learn how to have a conversation. You don't
46:53
have to do either one of those, right? And that's and that's the real concern. But the only thing I
46:58
would leave people with is, you know, if you're a veteran, if you're a military, we're here for
47:03
you, go to our website. There's resources there. There's links there to things like this event at
47:08
Costa Mesa, but other things, other people that we're in relationship with like Jenna Tom Satterley
47:14
and the all secure foundation as an example, seal legacy, Tim Crewkshank, the great work he's done.
47:20
We're available to you. When you left the military, you didn't leave your brothers and sisters behind.
47:25
We're all still out here. So stay connected and be in community. That's what I want to leave
47:29
people. Yep. I'm nothing to add to that. Without his accent. Well, Brian Andrews and Jeff Wilson,
47:35
thank you for coming back on an adulted life of man's podcast. Anytime, Kyle, thanks again.
47:39
Thanks for having us. There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed another appearance of Andrews and
47:43
Wilson on the podcast. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
47:47
Add on daunted life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
47:50
forgis spiritual mental and physical resilience. So again, just a reminder, go to the origin website.
47:54
That's origin mane dot com to check out their full line of origin and jockofuel products, geese,
47:59
jeans, boots, protein, energy drinks, supplements, a whole bunch of other stuff. Use the promo code
48:03
Kyle, my first name, KYLE to get 10% off your order. So in the show notes today, I've got a link to
48:08
that battle scarred event. Again, if you guys are listening to this on time, this will apply to
48:11
you. But if it's after the time of the event, you know, just kind of is what it is. But I've
48:14
also got all the links for Andrews and Wilson. So you can go to their website, their social media,
48:17
where you can buy the new book dark fall, everything else. So it'll all be right there for you.
48:21
All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening to the show. We do appreciate it. Wherever you're
48:24
listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five star review.
48:27
If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an email to info
48:31
at undontadotlife. That's I N F O at undontadotlife. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook
48:36
and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content
48:39
like this coming your way. Just go to www dot undontadotlife. And as always, we want to thank the band
48:44
August Burns read for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast
48:48
is our song cutting the ties, which is off their 10th anniversary re recording of their album
48:52
leveler. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing
48:58
back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
49:22
Bye!