ADAM COMER | Opioids and the Forgotten Pandemic (Ep. 290)

0:00 [Music]

0:18 This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.

0:23 All right, guys. Today, I've got a special guest on the podcast. His name is Adam Comer.

0:26 He is a pastor and also the CEO of S2L Recovery. So S2L Recovery is a Christian based, not faith

0:33 based. We will get into that in the show. It is a Christian based, Christ centered addiction

0:37 recovery, residential care facility for men aged 18 to 65. It's out there in Tennessee.

0:42 And as I mentioned, he's the CEO of S2L Recovery. But he actually used to be a participant in

0:49 the program because Adam himself used to be completely addicted to opioids. So tell me

0:54 the number of guys you know that used to be an addict that now run the program that helps

0:59 addicts. Okay. So he's also featured in the documentary, The Forgotten Pandemic. But here's

1:04 the thing, guys, I've wanted to talk to somebody that knows a lot about this area for a while

1:08 now. So I'm really, really glad that Adam and I got connected because here in the United

1:11 States, we consume 80% of the world's opioids, but we only make up 5% of the world's population.

1:20 And in this era of COVID, we're all focused on this, you know, this disease, this virus

1:25 that is affecting people in a serious way at a very minor level. We've talked about that

1:29 on the show for years and years at this point, you're a bad person. If you talk about you

1:32 don't care about grandma, you don't care about death, blah, blah. But then we're completely

1:36 ignoring overdoses. We're completely ignoring real addictions to these supplements, right?

1:43 Or to these, to these medications, right? We're, we have a sprained ankle and someone gives

1:49 us a bottle of opioids and then we get addicted. And then people are going to the streets.

1:52 I already talked about on the show that in the age 18 to 49 bracket, the number one cause

1:58 of death is fentanyl overdose, not overdose to anything. It's fentanyl overdose. Why is

2:03 that? It's because people are addicted to these opioids. They're going, they're going

2:09 back to their doctors, their doctors aren't prescribing them anymore. Now they're going

2:12 to hit the street to try to get them. They're going to get one that's been laced with fentanyl

2:14 and then they die. And I feel like no one's really talking about the true overdose issue

2:20 that we're having in America of all the prominent people in news, conservative or otherwise.

2:24 I feel like Tucker Carlson is the only one that really, really talks about this on a

2:28 regular basis. It's really falling on deaf ears. And so that's one of the reasons why

2:32 I'm so excited about the show. So excited about this interview is because you guys need to

2:36 understand what's really going on out there. But also you need to understand why people

2:39 are going to these secular 12 step programs and not receiving actual help. They're relapsing

2:46 over and over and over. And yet we never question the validity of the 12 step program, the typical

2:52 secular 12 step program. And there's a lot of issues with that. So guys, if you've already

2:56 gotten a little bit offended, it's only going to get worse. But I promise you, there's a

2:59 lot of great nuggets in here. I'm so glad you're here for it. So without further ado,

3:03 let's get into it. Adam Comer, welcome to Undaunted Life of man's podcast.

3:07 Yeah, man, thank you so much for having me in that great intro that I wrote for you and

3:11 made you say about me. I appreciate that. Yeah, you're welcome. Hey, the intro is one

3:15 of those things that I get to lovingly slobber all over my guests without them actually having

3:19 to hear it beforehand. But the thing about this podcast, and as you know, since you've

3:22 kind of done a little bit of research on us as well, we like to get right into it from

3:25 the beginning. We don't really like to start simple. Heavy subject matter for today, but

3:29 it's it'll be good. And I was telling you this off air. This is something that I've wanted

3:33 to talk about for a really, really long time because it is ignored by churches. It's ignored

3:37 by parachurch ministries and everything like that. But part of the reason why we're talking

3:40 today is because you're the CEO of a Christian based recovery residential care facility for

3:45 men called S2L recovery. And we'll get way more into the Christian based side of that

3:49 here in just a bit. But you guys help walk men out of a life of addiction, like you don't

3:54 just tell them what to do or here's your here's your 12 steps or here's your booklet. It's

3:57 like you're actually holding their hands and walking them out of addiction. But the most

4:00 interesting part of that is that you yourself used to actually be a part of that program.

4:06 Oh, yeah. Because you yourself were I if I got it correctly, you were addicted to opioids.

4:10 And so from from death to life in Christ for yourself, but also from addict to CEO of the

4:17 program to save addicts. I mean, the the program that actually saved you. I mean, as broad of

4:21 a starting point is that is give us some info around that because that is a very unique

4:25 story. One that I'm not really familiar with any hearing anywhere else. Oh, yeah. And I

4:30 mean, it was it was so not only, I mean, from addict, but to saint, right? And that's

4:35 the big difference and excuse me. Yeah, I mean, I was I could go down my testimony and kind

4:41 of start from the beginning or I can just kind of tell you why it's different. And you tell

4:45 me where you want me to go with that. But it's an open book today. And man, it's by the

4:48 blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony we overcome. So I'm not ashamed. But yeah,

4:54 really bad off I grew up I had I would say I had a grew up with the American dream and

5:00 the aspect of no trauma or drama in my life, which which is important to mention because

5:04 a lot of them then I serve. That's the case. We serve a lot of people who have had bad

5:09 family life. We have a lot of veterans that come in a lot of our COO is a combat veteran.

5:14 We have three or four other veterans on staff and it's very important that we talk about

5:18 that later because we're actually doing a cool program just for combat veterans is our

5:22 plan. I think next year led by combat veterans only treating combat veterans for this. But

5:28 it's important that my story that's just not my case. I didn't have that. I had still

5:32 had two great parents. I was popular in school, played sports. I was I was led into addiction

5:38 with a back injury. I moved down to to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina hurt my back.

5:44 And you know, I could go deep into a lot of the things I was doing in high school. But

5:48 when I tasted that first powerful prescription drug pain pain pill man in my mind, it was

5:54 like, Hey, that's what you've been missing. Didn't know I was missing something. But

5:58 immediately I did. And so it just became these chase and chase and life spiraled out of control.

6:04 I mean, I lost everything, including my only woman I ever loved. She left me went to all

6:09 the secular rehabs, the 12 steps, the NAs, the A meetings. I was, I mean, you name it

6:16 whatever they prescribe. And by they, I mean, the world and the brilliant people in the

6:21 secular addiction, I guess, space, I did everything they said, and it was just hopeless. I was

6:29 always going to be an addict. I had to identify as one when I spoke at a meeting, Hey, my name's

6:33 Adam and I'm an addict. And it was just hopeless. And so I mean, it was just constant relapse,

6:38 constant relapse. And eventually, like I said, I was just losing everything, everything.

6:43 My wife left me. I couldn't, I couldn't even sleep. Like I had nowhere to lay my head because

6:48 I would steal from people. And I began doing thing. I just was doing things. I never thought

6:52 I would for something that big. And so finally, I Googled, is there such thing as Christian

6:57 recovery because I've tried it this way. And you know, like I said, I grew up with great

7:00 parents. I grew up in church. And yeah, that's when S2L popped up. And I went there and immediately

7:06 there was hope because here's what I heard. Don't don't say that about yourself. If you're

7:11 a believer, the Bible says you're a saint. Who are you to say anything different? The

7:16 Bible says that there's freedom, who the sun sets free, that if you're in Christ, you're

7:19 a new creation, the old's gone, you've been crucified with all of this, trying to talk

7:24 about our identity and who he is. And it was contrary to what I was taught all in my recovery

7:30 time of what the world said. And in fact, everything that, not everything, a lot of things that

7:35 the world was telling us on how to recover was antithetical to what God's words said.

7:39 And so immediately it was hope. And I like, I wanted to hear more about who God is and

7:45 more about who God says I am. And I just dove into consumed as word. And man, I don't know,

7:51 I don't know how to explain it, although the best words I could use is like almost like

7:56 my DNA shifted. Like I no longer, I was a new creation. Right. Yeah. And so God began

8:02 to restore my marriage, although where I was from is East Tennessee, and where the program

8:08 is is in middle Tennessee, it's about three hours away. And you know, eventually God restored

8:14 the marriage thing started to happen. And they asked me to intern. And I knew I felt cold

8:20 to help, but also knew that everything I had was in East Tennessee, along with my family,

8:25 my wife's family, my wife, any career. And so I was like, yeah, I'll intern. But I don't

8:30 after that, that's all we can do. And so they offered me a job at the end of the internship.

8:34 And I was like, Hey, let's pray about it. You know, I gave him the church answer. And

8:38 so I went with to my wife, I said, Hey guys, give us three days, we're going to pray about

8:41 it. And I just told my wife her name's Katie. I said, Katie, I mean, I know the answer to

8:46 this. And I know you know the answer to this, but I committed that we pray about it for

8:50 three days. And so on the second day of praying, my wife's boss came to her and said, Hey, Katie,

8:56 we have an opportunity for you to have a promotion, but you'd have to be willing to move to Middle

9:00 Tennessee to take it. And we were just like, really? There you go. Okay, God. All right.

9:06 And so that that was 10 years ago. And that began a journey of just my guess was on the

9:12 table of obedience to the Lord. And he began to open doors and open doors until like you

9:17 said, in the intro, it was, yeah, I'm now I'm now the chief executive officer of the very

9:23 program God called me to heal in. So it's been a wild ride. Well, we're going to get into

9:28 a lot of that information. But I do just got to say, I still think it's funny that we have

9:32 a state in America that is so long East to West, people refer to the middle of the state

9:37 as Middle Tennessee, because I'm in the middle of Oklahoma, but I'm never like, yeah, I live

9:41 in middle Oklahoma. So that's just a little sidebar. Guys, I'm a weirdo. It's just kind

9:45 of how it goes. But I do want to go back to something from the very beginning, because

9:48 I do jujitsu. So basically I'm going to have surgery every year or two. That's just kind

9:52 of the way of it. But I remember whenever I blew, you know, every tendon in this thumb.

9:57 And I get a call from a guy. So shout out to my buddy Spike in lot in Oklahoma. Yes,

10:01 I have a buddy named Spike again. I'm a weirdo. But he, he called me all the blue. And this

10:06 is guy, you know, we, we trade texts about sports and, you know, funny videos and stuff

10:09 like that. And he knew I just had surgery. And he was very serious. He's like, how you

10:13 need, you need to be very, very careful with, with the opioids that they sent you. And he's

10:18 like, I know you're a very disciplined guy. I know you're a faithful guy, all those things.

10:22 But you got to be careful. And I kind of text him back. I'm like, thanks, you know, I'm

10:25 going to be careful. I'm going to get to get off these as quickly as possible. But I'm

10:28 just curious why you would say that. And he's like, buddy, I've, I've lost two, I think

10:31 he said I lost two friends in the last year. And these guys were athletes and they were

10:36 this and that. So give me a little bit more there because there's plenty of people that

10:41 are disciplined like I am. There's plenty of people that have a support system of family

10:45 around them and be like, wait, did you take another? Did you take another pill today?

10:48 Like, but I was so excited to get off of them. Like, whenever I felt like I could really

10:53 fall asleep without without taking one, I put him in the cabinet and I never even thought

10:58 him about him about him again. But what is it about those things? Aside from the fact

11:02 that it's synthetic heroin that really gets it grips and it gets its grip into people.

11:07 Yeah, I guess that's it. I don't know. I don't know why. I mean, I don't know how much trouble

11:13 we want to get in on this. How much how much trouble we want to get into all the trouble

11:17 I want all the smoke. Okay. All right. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think

11:23 and this is not I'm not a scientist or a doctor, but I mean, it almost seems as though, well,

11:31 I could tell you stats. How about that? I could tell you in May of 2000 to May of 2021, 100,000

11:39 people died of drug overdose. That's astronomical. That's that's more casualties than the entire

11:46 Vietnam War era. That's 17 years, I believe. I could tell you that it's it's like it's

11:53 a molecule away from synthetic heroin. I could tell you that the United States consumes,

11:57 I want to say 85% of the world, the global opioids, and we're only 5% of the global population.

12:05 I don't know why. I mean, the chemistry of the brain, I mean, we could talk about why

12:10 people are addicted, but it almost seems man, big pharma and insurance companies, it's just

12:19 it doesn't seem like it's what's best for humans, right? It doesn't numb the pain. Yeah.

12:24 But it's the kind of pain if you're going into surgery or if you're going into some

12:28 kind of like major pain, but they're handed out for like sprained knees and pulled muscles

12:34 in your back and it's like, why are we doing this? This is a horse tranquilizer. Why are

12:38 we doing this? Well, I feel like it may even be and I'm going to be jumping all over the

12:42 place, but I feel like it may even be. So look with COVID and we'll talk more about

12:46 COVID here in just a second. So nothing, nobody's talking about, hey, you need to be in better

12:51 shape. Hey, you need to focus on your health. Hey, you need to eat better. Hey, you need

12:54 to get some sleep. Hey, take some vitamin D and some vitamin C and some zinc and you

12:58 know, try to take care of yourself. You know, no one was talking about that. It was just

13:02 hold your breath until the vaccine's available and then get the vaccine and then get it again

13:05 and then get the booster and then get the second booster and then we might need to do

13:08 a third, fourth, fifth and add if an item until forever. And so whenever someone has

13:12 an issue that maybe a small lifestyle change or some stretching programs or a little bit

13:17 of PT, it's like, yeah, we know you're not going to do that. Here's a little orange bottle

13:21 with a white cap. Just take these and you'll be fine. But in general, I, Adam, I follow

13:26 the wisdom that you shouldn't attribute to evil, what can be attributed to ignorance

13:30 or incompetence. So I try not to just blame the evil pharmaceutical drug companies. But

13:35 if I'm being honest, it seems like a perfect storm for them incentivize doctors to prescribe

13:40 opioids, get people addicted, rinse, repeat. Like, again, I don't want to think of these

13:46 doctors as evil. I don't necessarily want to think of these companies as evil because

13:49 I think the modern market system free market system has got us to where we are today has

13:54 lifted, you know, untold billions of people out of poverty worldwide. Like I get that

13:58 I'm okay with, you know, profit, you know, seeking and those types of things. But with

14:03 the issues we're seeing, like, why isn't there more of a ground swell of even doctors

14:08 saying, yeah, yeah, you don't need these pills, baby. Like let me let me get you to someone

14:13 who can give you a little bit more of a holistic approach to what you're doing. You know, hey,

14:16 I need to see three or more times before I would ever prescribe you something. Why don't

14:19 why don't we see that? Like at a mass level? Well, I mean, again, there's also something

14:26 now that's called MAT medically assisted treatment is the next I mean, me even talking negatively

14:31 about this to you right now. I am ignorant. I'm a bigot. Oh, you just you're not following

14:36 the science. But it's basically maintenance medication long term maintenance medication

14:43 that's keeping people it's an opioid blocker. But in and of itself, it's an narcotic and

14:48 people are getting high and extremely addicted to this drug. I'm seeing guys come to our program

14:55 more and more and more and more every year just to get off the drug that they were given

14:58 to get off of drugs. And so it's it's insanity. But guess what? How brain broke is it to imagine

15:05 that hey, let's trust the saint like the big we call it the forgotten pandemic of with

15:10 addiction, but that big spur. And I think I said it in the documentary, there's a big

15:14 spike in like addictions and a wave of overdoses when Opio is really pushed on to the market

15:20 and they're made by pharmaceutical companies. Why in the world would we think that the answer

15:25 out of that is just more drugs made by the same pharmaceutical companies. So I mean, in

15:29 theory, if if I can keep you sick, I can keep getting paid. If I can keep you taking my

15:35 medication, then my bottom, I mean, you're asking that that would be an obvious answer

15:40 to me. But with that and like inserted into it with the people that I'm seeing with, I've

15:45 taken the drugs, I don't, I'm not against medication. I think that same drug that I'm

15:50 talking for is amazing, very short term, like to kick to kick the withdrawals to for seven

15:57 to 10 days, something like that. Absolutely. Why not use that? But to have someone on that

16:02 drug long term to me seems very dangerous, very dangerous because I've taken it. I know

16:09 what it can. I know that it's addicting. I know the kind of feeling that you can get

16:13 from. Well, Adam, everything in society that was meant to be short term gets elongated as

16:18 you were talking. You know, I thought about welfare. Like welfare back in the day was

16:22 I literally don't have the means to make ends meet. I don't have the ability to get on my

16:28 feet right now. Let me allow for some government assistance right now to get me on my feet.

16:33 And I'll get on my feet as soon as possible. And even had people go back and pay back what

16:37 they borrowed from the government. They looked at it as if they were borrowing something

16:40 like it was alone. But now we have people that are on government assistance for years

16:44 and years and years and there's no intent to get off. And something I wrote down as you

16:48 were talking is that we don't have a health care system as much as we have a sick care

16:52 system, right? So no one's trying to to make you a healthy person. It's like you go to

16:58 the doctor when you're sick, you don't go to the doctor when you're healthy, saying,

17:01 Hey, I'd love to stay healthy. What are some things that I should be doing? Are there

17:04 some vitamins that I should be taking? Is there a new workout regimen that I should

17:08 be doing? I haven't been getting a lot of sleep. Do you have any natural remedies or

17:10 something that can help me get some better sleep in that area? And the only way to keep

17:14 a sick care system going is to keep people sick. And so this this revolving door that

17:20 we see like doctors don't seem to be terribly concerned. And I get so overwhelmed when I

17:25 hear people that are like, well, I had a blood pressure problem. So they put me on this medication,

17:29 but then that caused me to have gout. And then I had to be on this medication that I had

17:32 to be on this. And then it's like nobody can un you know, untangle this web that we've

17:37 gotten into. Again, it's not like the again what we're not so obviously, I can't speak

17:45 for you, but I would imagine that you believe medication is a common grace and gift of God.

17:50 Absolutely. But it there is an issue to say. So I mean, so many people like it will make

17:55 a post about some of the things that we're saying, you know, with opiates. And I mean,

17:59 there's there's the out I don't even know if they're outliers, but we'll get comments,

18:02 we'll get emails that just like, it's these drug addicts are making it so hard for people

18:09 with legitimate pain to take, you know, get their pain medication. It's like, man, listen

18:12 to the stat that I already mentioned, 85% of global opioids are taking in this country.

18:18 Are we in a lot more pain than Europe? Are we in a lot more pain than these other? It's

18:22 not like Europe's poor and can't afford the Medicaid. I mean, it's not, I'm not talking

18:26 third world countries here, but we're taking 85% and we're only 5% of the world's population.

18:32 This is an issue. They don't talk to me about how it's hard. Why are you taking a synthetic

18:38 heroin when an ad bill will do or, you know, or or something else could do or stretching

18:43 and man, it's a problem. It's a problem.

18:46 I think the bigger problem because because obviously this is a massive problem, everything

18:50 that we're describing, but in the era of COVID, right, we're going into our third year of

18:56 this. COVID has dominated the news cycle and it has kept the general public from even knowing

19:01 about the crisis that is drug overdoses, especially from fentanyl. I know that even

19:06 just a couple of months ago, it was announced that the number one leading cause of death

19:10 for adults age 18 to 49 was fentanyl overdose. Okay. Now, now I think that that's something

19:17 gets lost in the translation there. People just hear overdose and they forget fentanyl.

19:22 I was like, they're not saying overdose from anything. They're saying overdose from a very

19:27 specific thing. Fentanyl is the number one cause of death, more than COVID, more than cancer,

19:32 more than, you know, wild dog attacks. Anything is fentanyl. And part of the issue is because

19:36 people are getting hooked on opioids. Their doctors stopped prescribing them to them. They

19:40 go to the street to get these opioids now. They've been laced with fentanyl and then they overdose

19:44 almost immediately. You know, we part of the issue that we see at the southern border

19:48 is the amount of fentanyl that is being brought into the United States is enough to kill every

19:52 single person in the United States. And these are things like the spigots not going to turn off.

19:56 So give us some perspective because again, you're talking to an audience that is,

20:01 is kind of like me that they're, they're just shocked at these numbers when they see the headlines,

20:05 but give us a little bit more of a perspective around the real issue with overdose in America

20:09 right now and just abuse in general. Yeah. And I mean, even to not, I don't want to scare people

20:16 into not taking drugs. I hope, hopefully, and I mean, we, we discussed a mutual person earlier,

20:22 but hopefully, who speaks on this a lot, but hopefully the heart changes and we're not chasing

20:27 idols to fill a place in our heart. Like that said in my testimony, there was a hole that I was

20:32 like, Oh, this is what I've been missing. Hopefully we're not chasing idols for that. And that's what

20:36 this drug is. But when it comes to fentanyl, I mean, and again, not to scare, but I read a story the

20:42 other day that there was a, I don't know, a teenager man, went with some friends and there was a pill,

20:48 a prescription pill that was brought out and he took it the first time he's ever done it and he

20:53 died because it was a fake pill. It was fentanyl or it was laced with fentanyl. And it looked just

20:58 like a pharmaceutical pill. And so just a warning to those that could be listening or please talk

21:03 with your children, your friends, your son or your brothers or sisters that you think might be

21:08 doing it. I mean, even if you think it's a prescription pill, they're so good now and they're laced and

21:14 it's like, goodness, like I said earlier, 100,000 deaths, that's just drug overload. If we're talking

21:20 about just opiates and just fentanyl, that's fine. But that 100,000 deaths a year, don't even

21:25 including the, you know, devastation that comes from alcohol. And I don't believe alcohol is

21:30 sinful. I don't believe any of that. But, you know, being drunk and abusing alcohol is absolutely

21:36 sinful. And it's the disease that's coming from that liver disease car accidents. When you add all

21:42 of this up, why is all we're hearing about in the news, COVID? Right? For three years, like you

21:47 said, why are we not addressing this? And here's what I'll say. The church with a capital C has

21:53 always been the one that marched into the storm in church history. We've always been the one to

21:57 address these issues. But yet with this one is almost a fear. There's almost a, and I want to

22:03 be gracious here, because like you said, I want to have, I can't remember how you said it, but it

22:07 was ignorance or, you know, evil. And I want, I don't want to believe it's evil. So I want to be

22:12 gracious. But we feel like, and I've been on this, a part of making the documentary that I'm sure we're

22:18 going to talk about was to hey, reach out to the church. And we've had an awesome response to that.

22:21 But I think there's a fear because people could die if I say the wrong thing. I think there's a,

22:31 there's, you know, there is also a stigma attached to it, because back in the day, it was almost like,

22:36 hey, there's only a certain type of people that are getting high and doing that. If you're still in

22:41 that mindset, or if you're still thinking that you're just blind, or you're living under a rock,

22:45 especially, I mean, we've had judges, professional athletes, doctors, lawyers, homeless people,

22:51 everyone's coming to our program with the need for healing and from addiction. And so,

22:57 gosh, it's like the church is time for to wake up. And we're afraid because if we say, I'm assuming,

23:04 and I've talked with people to back this up, but if I say the wrong thing, or if I'm

23:09 discipling this guy, and I'm never dealt with an addiction, if I say the wrong thing, he could die.

23:13 And I mean, remind this podcast and know they are dying, right? Not saying anything is way

23:19 more deadly than discipling someone. So I want to talk a little bit more about the capital C church,

23:24 because, and we spoke about this off air, a lot of the things that we cover on

23:29 undaunted life of man's podcast are subjects that are seemingly too hot for the church,

23:33 because they don't talk about them, especially in this modern era of, you know, people like to

23:37 say mega churches, but I'm okay with churches having a mega impact. It's the fact that they're

23:41 set up like companies, where the lead pastor is a CEO and not a lead pastor, right? You know,

23:47 you have these passwords of these mega churches, they couldn't name 100 members, right? And yet,

23:51 they're leading the flock. It's just kind of like, yeah, I don't know if I really buy that.

23:55 But the thing about it is, is so many churches are unwilling to get their hands dirty and get their

24:00 feet dirty in areas that seem scary. One of those areas is abortion. You know, that seems scary,

24:06 that seems real judgmental. And I don't want, you know, women that have had abortion to stop

24:09 coming to our church and that kind of a thing, which I understand the sentiment at least,

24:13 then you have, you know, other things like, you know, they don't want to get into the race issue,

24:17 because they look at their, you know, their, their congregation. It's mainly white and they

24:20 don't want to ostracize, you know, the, the people of color that are in the room or whatever.

24:24 But with this thing as well, with drug abuse, especially since it's not just a, you know, downtrodden

24:30 human being, a homeless problem or a, you know, just a bad person problem. It's doctors,

24:36 it's staying home moms, it's children, all these different things. Why do you think the

24:40 capital seat church is staying away from these things? Because we, you know, we're called as a body

24:47 to push back darkness, to bring the light of Christ into these dark areas. Why are we not touching it?

24:52 Yeah. And that's a really good question. And I think for you, if someone was really listening

24:57 to us and wanted to press us, I think both of us would say, when we say capital seat church,

25:02 we mean the global church, but that does, I know personally, and I know that you know, especially,

25:07 I mean, even my own church, I'm not trying to, you know, feel good. But, but there are some that are,

25:13 like, really pressing into all of these issues, biblically standing firm on stage. And so we're

25:18 not saying, when we say capital seat church, we don't mean just a church. I think both Kyle and I

25:23 love the church. I know I love the church. And it sounds as though he loves the church too,

25:26 the body of Christ. But the reason I think there are some, and maybe, maybe majority,

25:31 I don't know, there are some churches, possibly the majority that don't go after these issues.

25:37 And I don't know, I mean, if we want to go and kind of the most, like, recent church history and

25:42 talk about growth and talk about that model and things like that. But I mean, it's just hard.

25:46 If we want to talk about human nature, it's hard to talk about issues that are going to hurt

25:50 people's feelings. I think especially men that are watching this, passivities killed Christian men,

25:57 killed, killed being passive and not being able to have a conversation that might hurt someone's

26:02 feelings, but is what you're called to do and call someone to the carpet. That's what that's

26:08 actually loving them the best. And I think passivity is killing a lot of things and that rolls into

26:13 the pulpit. And so if there's an issue that I'm talking about, and there's there's way more than

26:19 even just you said that are socially kind of off limits. And so I don't know, I don't want to

26:24 condemn them. I know there's a lot of churches that are that are speaking to these things. I know

26:29 multiple of them, we partner with them, our ministry does. But for the most part, it does seem like,

26:35 hey, when and if we do talk about them, we don't really dive into them, we just kind of hit some

26:40 talking points of them. So man, I don't know, if you had to press me on that, I would answer just

26:45 maybe passivity, maybe one in the world that love you. I don't know, man.

26:50 I think you're, I think you're on to some things there. But also the thing that I would say is,

26:55 if you're the lead pastor and you look out at the men in your church and you don't think that they

26:59 have your back, you're not going to take very many risks. And so part of the thing that I like to do

27:04 is whenever I talk to guys and whenever I say things on this podcast, and I'm like, if you want

27:07 to see change in your church, and if you want to see your pastor talk about abortion and not just

27:11 mention it for a minute or two in a sermon, but to do an entire series on it, to do something like

27:16 for the entire church, go to your pastor and say, Hey, if you talk about this subject matter,

27:21 I've got your back. Some of those slings and arrows that are going to come your way. I'll take some

27:25 of those and then have your buddy go and have a conversation with the pastor and say the same thing

27:29 and another and another and another. So the pastor understands that if I go a little bit outside my

27:34 comfort zone, right, if I, if I, you know, unbutton my sweater vest just a little bit further or

27:38 something like that or the sweater vest don't have buttons. Don't worry about it. But like, if I'm

27:42 going to have to like, you know, to really take care of things, I've got people that have my back.

27:46 And that's part of the thing is you have so many passive men in the church, they're passive to the

27:50 point of not showing up, or they're passive to the point of showing up but being brain dead,

27:55 or they're just passive because they just really don't give a crap. They're there because they're

27:58 supposed to be because it's a cultural thing. I'm supposed to go to church. Like, that's what I

28:02 really feel like it gets down to call that man. That is, that's really good. And the

28:07 aspect, it's easy for us. I mean, I'm a pastor as well, not a church, but in the ministry. I think

28:12 it's easy for us, like I just did, to kind of pile on the pastor. But what you just did was, hey,

28:18 church goer, church member, what are you doing? You just gave some practical things, man. And I

28:25 haven't really heard anyone talking about that. But that's a brilliant idea. If I, if someone came

28:30 to me in my, in our ministry and said, Hey, I know whatever, but I got your back. Okay, a little

28:36 more confident. Exactly. And then this guy, what a, what a great thing for you to bring up, man.

28:41 And I think we challenge you men that are listening to this. Go do that. But even if your pastor is

28:47 covering these things, let them know that you got his back. Exactly. So I would some stupid bumper

28:51 sticker thing be the change you want to see in the world. That's kind of it though. It's just like,

28:56 Hey, man, I'm so tired of these effeminate songs being sung at church and all that. And where's the,

29:01 where's the songs and where's the stuff that get the guys riled up? Have you ever spoken to the

29:05 person that leads worship at your church? Because we did an episode where we talked about, you know,

29:09 the problem with modern contemporary worship music. And I had music ministers reaching out to me,

29:15 saying, I've never thought that people in the crowd thought these things. I had never considered

29:19 the men in the crowd. When I was picking out the songs, I never thought that these lyrics were

29:24 homo erotic, that these men, the reason why they weren't singing them is because they felt like

29:27 they were singing to a, you know, a guy that was their boyfriend and not the, you know, the, the

29:31 line of Judah. And so it's like, that, that's a you thing, right? You're like, he can't, you know,

29:36 see the problem with what he's doing unless you go and actually talk to him. But I'm kind of getting

29:40 a little off subject here. I'm going to kind of bring it back to the overall issue with drugs,

29:43 because one thing that I see a lot, especially in the era where one of the most proud and loud

29:48 voices on every subject is Joe Rogan, right? And I listen to the Joe Rogan experience,

29:53 and I appreciate that guy, you know, I kind of tune him out on some of the things that he's ignorant

29:56 on. But there's this entire camp of people. That's the legalize all drugs people. It's like,

30:02 well, they legalize all drugs in, you know, this random European city or country and look how

30:07 great things are going pretending as if those cities or countries are anything like the United

30:11 States of America. But these people think that if you just legalize all drugs, that it won't have

30:16 any significant negative downstream consequences. It will somehow eradicate the black market and

30:23 not lead to additional users. Even here in the state of Oklahoma, when there was a debate around

30:28 legalizing medical marijuana, I said, guys, they never stop at medical. So that's the first thing,

30:35 like, you're like, well, I'm for medical marijuana use, but I'm not for, you know,

30:39 you know, just recreational use. I was like, well, it never stops there one. And it's like,

30:43 do you really think these nefarious criminal actors that run the black market are going to be like,

30:48 Oh, well, they've legalized it. So I guess we're not going to sell any more weed in the state of

30:52 Oklahoma. No, they're going to get creative and they're going to undercut the state prices because

30:56 they don't have to charge tax or pay tax or any of those types of things. So for you,

31:00 working in the world that you're in, being around the people that you're around,

31:03 the legalize all drugs camp, that thought process, what do you think about it?

31:07 Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And I mean, I have, I think it would be,

31:11 my, my instinct is wanting to go and pull up a lot of the data from the states that have made,

31:18 like, like Colorado and all of this stuff. I'm like, Hey, your thoughts on this, doing this,

31:23 we're just off. Look at these negative. That's kind of where my instinct wants to go. But I think

31:27 if, if Christian men are listening to this and they're asked about it, I don't know that I need

31:32 to move away from the word of God as much. And so what the word of God says is be alert and be so

31:37 reminded your enemy, the devil prowls around like a roaring lion waiting, looking for someone to devour.

31:44 And so any talks of legalizing just all of these drugs and making all these things legal and all

31:50 of these drugs are mind altering, right? And no longer alert. So I mean, have your pushback,

31:55 have your base pushback there. But if we're entering into the political, it's just, I mean,

32:00 it's more insanity, man. I mean, the things that are coming out, the, it's disheartening to see the

32:08 world, the culture, and the insanity of decisions being made and the just absurdness of the decisions

32:15 being made. How is this possible? Hey, making these drugs legal is going to be your ticket of

32:20 what emptying out the prisons? Yeah, you're going away with the cartel, the black market.

32:24 Yeah, what's the best case scenario of doing this? Yeah, I don't know, more deaths. You're so

32:29 your morgues and your cemeteries are a lot more full than your jails. And I mean, just the decay

32:34 of culture, man, decay, the more decay, the more, I don't know, I don't know, again, we could take

32:41 this, we could take this a few ways. But I mean, and I've had I've actually, I've been in, I've

32:46 been in Europe, I've been in Europe with my church. So we have a church in Europe and there's some

32:51 talks of being a pastor out there a few years ago. And I was sitting there talking with someone

32:57 in Brussels at a cool little table. And I mean, it was almost like his, they're the brain, the way

33:04 that they think of it, it was so contrary, they're talking about, yeah, we need to give out needles,

33:09 we need to have these safe places, we need to do this. And I was just like, what? Like that's your

33:14 answer to this? And it was almost it just seemed like I said before, brain broke, that you think

33:20 providing safe and clean things is going to be a just a justice for the society? No, I mean,

33:27 why don't you provide treatment? Why don't you provide? I mean, just secular talk, why don't you

33:32 provide ways out of it, not enabling more ways into it? Right. Their life is only, there's only

33:38 evidence of their life spiraling out of control and dragging a whole bunch of chaos and devastation

33:44 and destruction with it. Why are we just here's a clean needle? Because I don't want you to get

33:49 AIDS on your way down. Well, it's it's kind of like giving someone with cancer band aids. It's just

33:53 kind of like what what yeah, they might brush up against something and scratch themselves,

33:58 but are you really treating the disease? And again, I think it's when you have a secular

34:02 approach to things, this is one of the downstream consequences that that you have. And I think this

34:06 is a good time now to really get into what you all do with S2L recovery. Because your addiction

34:12 treatment and recovery philosophy is not so subtly anti the typical 12 steps program. And most of

34:20 us are at least, you know, most of us are at least tangentially aware of the 12 steps program,

34:24 if we've never been a part of them as well. I remember way, way, way back in the day,

34:27 I was trying to, you know, stop, you know, watching porn and masturbating, right? And so like I tried

34:32 to, you know, anesthetize it and try to make it like this medical thing, as opposed to be like,

34:37 well, if I want to stop looking at porn, I should probably stop jerking off like boom,

34:40 there fix it. And the reason that you were investigated or turned to the 12 steps are

34:44 a reason that anyone does with any kind of addiction issue is because that's all that people know

34:48 who exist. That's all that there has been. That's what everyone that's what everyone says you have

34:52 to do. That's what the professionals anyway, sorry. Well, no, you're exactly right. It's the

34:57 name brand. Like you don't buy gelatin, you buy jello, like you don't know, you don't buy,

35:01 you know, bandages, you buy band aids, right? Like it's the name brand thing, the 12 steps program.

35:07 I've got sex addiction or I've got pornography addiction or I've got this addiction or that

35:10 addiction, you go to the 12 steps. So for you all at S2L recovery, why do you not lean on the 12

35:16 steps model? I think I think that's it. That's a great question. And that's, that's probably if

35:23 just someone who's been through addiction or it kind of in the recovery world, that's what they're

35:28 going to notice first about us. And while we're so drastically different, it's because we don't,

35:32 we we don't. And here's why. And to be fair, I think a lot of people can can go through.

35:39 And I think Jeff Durbin says this, God can strike a straight blow with a crooked stick.

35:45 And so yeah, so 12 steps has been used and people do find God finds them there and whatever.

35:52 And I think in its originality, even in its originality, there was some theological issues,

35:58 but I think they had pure hearts and they were turning people to the God, to God,

36:02 the God of the universe. But where it is today and the reason that we don't use it is because

36:06 if you tell me, Hey, there's really good 12 step meetings and really good, you know,

36:10 we're talking about God here in these 12 step meetings. I'm just like, well, tell me where those

36:13 are because I'm sending guys back to Oklahoma. I'm sending guys back to Indiana. I'm sending

36:16 guys to Kentucky and here in East Tennessee, West Tennessee, Florida. Tell me where those

36:20 meetings are. And I might have them go there, but I don't know where those really Christian

36:24 ones are. And if you look, if you pull the 12 step stuff right now, it should make you cringe

36:30 if you're a believer because it's not, it's not what it was. In fact, it says

36:34 a God of your own understanding. It's like what? That's what led me to addiction in the first place

36:41 was trusting a God and seeking a God of my understanding. The Bible says, lean not on your

36:45 own understanding and he will make straight your path. And so it's, and they promote, like I said,

36:51 the, Hey, I'm, I'm Johnny. I'm an alcoholic. Hey, I'm Peter. I'm an addict. And it's like,

36:55 man, identity is such an important piece. Your identity in Christ and whatever you're placing

37:02 your identity in is so important. And that's, that's even moving away from faith. That's,

37:08 that's psychology 101. You call a little girl ugly her whole life growing up. She's going to

37:12 grow up and think what? That she's ugly. Yeah, you identify with sin. You identify with your past

37:19 in just the devastation and the chaos and the decay of your past. That's what you're identifying

37:24 with every time you introduce yourself. Man, that again, absurd thinking, just like, Hey,

37:30 let's make everything legal, just like all the other things we could bring up about

37:33 what the world thinks is right now. It's just absurdity that I'm going to identify with this.

37:39 And here's what they would say. And I've been, I've been on this mission man for a while. I went to,

37:44 I went with the state that the state has a faith based Tennessee. It's actually pretty cool.

37:49 But I mean, I'm going to call it what it is. I mean, faith based, I do like this is because

37:53 they have to include all faiths. Right. But anyways, I went on the kind of this tour to every county

37:57 in the state or a bunch of counties. And I remember saying the things I'm saying now and

38:01 afterwards, it's kind of old timers, what they call them, who've been in AA and recovery for 30

38:05 years, 40 years and kind of came up after I got off stage and he pulled me aside and said, Hey,

38:09 you know, I'm an elder in my church. And you want to mean to know that? And he said, you know, I've

38:13 been in AA for 30 years. And the reason that I say I'm an alcoholic, it's kind of like saying I'm

38:20 a sinner saved by grace. You know, I just don't want to forget. And I don't know, I just said to

38:25 him in this in that moment, I said, the Bible doesn't say that you're a sinner. It says you're

38:29 a saint if you're in Christ. That's your identity. It's you're definitely you sin. But when

38:36 you've been crucified with Christ, it's no longer you who live, you're identified,

38:40 you're seen as perfect, spotless and blameless, you're a saint. And I could just see him as wheels

38:45 return in his head and he's like, Oh, yeah, look, any kind of walked away didn't have anything to say.

38:51 And so if the mindset is, Hey, we identify that way because I don't want to ever forget. Are you

38:56 joking me? Like, if you're going to forget the chaos that's in your and that was brought on in

39:03 your world, then you probably didn't have much of an addiction. And I'm not trying to like compare

39:09 war stories. But the pain that I caused my wife, the emptying of my bank account and everything I

39:15 ever owned, the looking at my parents and that have just all of that if I could never forget that.

39:22 But that doesn't define me. I mean, I did that and I have to sometimes still suffer the consequences

39:28 of that from a decade ago. But I'm not that I'm in crime. I'm a blood-stained child of the kingdom.

39:34 And that's who God says I am. Why would I identify with that? And so I mean, all of that, I don't know,

39:40 you could probably ask the short question. I just went down a rabbit trail. But I mean,

39:43 that's why we don't teach that, push that, encourage that. Well, I will say this as well,

39:50 like just here recently, you know, it's kind of like this is all providentially coming at the same

39:54 time. I watched the documentary, which we'll get into here in just a second. But I also heard

39:58 Jeff Durbin talk on his podcast about his issues with the 12 step program. And I had never heard

40:02 someone be critical of the 12 step program from that basis. And they basically said, yeah, it's like,

40:07 hi, I'm Kyle, I'm an alcoholic or hi, I'm Tim, I'm addicted to opioids or something like that.

40:11 And if they're in the program for 30 years, like the guy you just mentioned, they're

40:15 constantly saying that and they're almost drilling a home in their head, not just reminding themselves

40:20 of what they're reminding themselves of what they used to be. And if they are a new creation,

40:24 then they're not that anymore, right? Like that's who I was, it's not who I am. But so they're

40:29 encouraging people to go to these programs and say, hi, I'm Kyle, and I'm saved by the blood of

40:33 the lamp, or hi, I'm, you know, I'm John, and I'm a new creation in Christ, and in like those

40:39 types of things. And you know, that really gets the hackles up of these 12 step program people,

40:42 because it's like, no, no, no, like you've got to say you're this. And part of it, I feel like,

40:47 and you bring this up a little in the documentary, I keep teasing the documentary. Don't worry,

40:50 guys, we'll get there. I keep thinking about the disease model. Yeah. So I've heard you talk about,

40:56 I heard in the documentary, I heard it, you know, with Jeff Durbin and other people, the disease

41:00 model, everything has to be a disease. And why, you know, why approaching a disease as a disease is

41:07 the only way to address the issue. I think about this as well with with mental health issues. So

41:12 there are mental health issues that are caused by an issue with your biology. You were born with,

41:16 you know, an imbalance in your brain, or something else that's happened. And you need actual treatment

41:22 for that if you if your paranoid schizophrenic, or something like that, like that, that's something

41:26 that requires that like real stuff. But your dog died and now you're depressed. And so you need

41:31 medication for that. No, I'm sorry. That's not clinical depression. You're sad. Some people are

41:36 melancholy in their personality. Like if you went to the early 1900s, they would have just said,

41:40 yeah, you're a melancholy person. Edgar Allan Poe probably wasn't the best guy to go to a party with,

41:45 but he wrote great stuff from, you know, that was an exuding of his melancholy personality.

41:50 And if he had ever turned to Christ, I'm sure part of his melancholy would have communicated

41:55 to people in the Christian sphere that were just bubbly and bouncing all over the place.

41:59 But I think the problem is everything we're basing off the disease model that oh, you have

42:03 something that you don't feel is right. You must have a disease. In your opinion, what is wrong with

42:08 treating addiction as the disease model? How much time we have left? We got a lot of time in the

42:14 world supposed to be. I mean, I mean, to be fair, I think, I think it's word play sometimes.

42:24 How silly this is. It becomes word play because it really depends on what's the definition of a

42:29 disease. And then if you want to say that, you want to look at the brain, what happens to someone's

42:33 an addiction. So I mean, even if I yield to someone saying, yeah, you know what, by definition of this,

42:39 it could be considered that. I'm saying it's curable. But here's the man, and I did not expect

42:46 to do this. But just how hypocritical the system is. And this just happened today, to me, not to me,

42:57 but to us. The disease model is very beneficial if you're going to treat the disease. Well, how do

43:05 we treat diseases here in this country? We treat it with medication, right? And so it's a disease,

43:13 and we could treat it with medication and now this company. But in the same aspect today,

43:19 I'm told via email that we have someone who was by an insurance company, they are declined care

43:29 because they had clean time in the past. And so that we think that they could do it on the run.

43:35 So it's a disease when we need to feed them medication, but it's not a disease when we want to have

43:40 them go through treatment and get help for six weeks or eight weeks, 12 weeks, whatever it is.

43:44 How interesting. And my rationale is, oh, they've been cleaned before they could do it again. Oh,

43:48 really? Case person that's 1000 miles away. You think this person just put their entire life on

43:54 hold in the darkest seasons of their life and made one of the hardest decisions that you can to

43:58 leave everything you know to go get help. You think you know better than they do of what they can do,

44:03 and you're never seen them before in your life. And so you're going to try to dictate their

44:06 treatment. Wow. How convenient that the disease model is for this, but not for this. And so my

44:13 problem with it is what I think it does, what I think the disease model leads to is long term

44:18 medication and long term maintenance, like I was discussing before. And I just think that's

44:23 dangerous. And I don't think we have enough data that shows that's effective, even though they say

44:28 they do, well, you're not asking me. And if you're, if you were, I could tell you how much that I have

44:33 of guys coming in to get help to get off of those drugs. I doubt you're interviewing them.

44:36 I think that brings up a lot of things in terms of these drugs.

44:40 Get me in trouble today. Carl's my producer right here. He's making sure the camera and everything.

44:44 Here we go. We're fine here. There's no issues. But the big deal is there.

44:50 I'm going to get you in trouble. One or the other.

44:52 Bro, the things I've said on this show, like this is not even going to register. But like,

44:57 the funny thing about all this is there are issues. And again, don't contribute to evil

45:02 what can be contributed to ignorance. But that case worker is not making an evil decision.

45:07 She's she or he is making a decision based on something that they've seen, right? So they see

45:12 at the baseball card, they see the back of the baseball card on the person and they try to make

45:16 a decision. It's a lot different when you watch every single lap bat for the entire season, though.

45:20 It's a lot different when you see someone that basically melts into a puddle in your arms because

45:24 they have given every the last bit of effort they did just to get to you to get to S2L recovery.

45:30 But I brought it up just a second ago. There are people that actually need medical care.

45:37 They actually need therapy. They actually need treatment. They're beyond counseling.

45:43 Perhaps at this point, they're beyond some of those things. So for you at S2L recovery,

45:48 because I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about kind of what y'all do in terms of your

45:51 program, just sit there and pray with people and smack them over the head with a new testament.

45:55 So what do you do with people that have actual medical or advanced therapy needs?

46:01 I guess I can kind of go into the long version because I think what S2L is doing is somewhat

46:08 unique in the aspect of not a Christian, not faith-based, but truly, when we describe our

46:15 program, we're Christ-centered unapologetically. And we're also licensed by the state. And we also

46:21 have a national accreditation from the Joint Commission, which is the cream of the crop. I mean,

46:27 if the best hospital you have in your city, the accreditation that they went for is the Joint

46:31 Commission. So we went after those things. And we felt like we were doing that kind of like with

46:35 the documentary that God was calling us to, to kind of be on the stage. And so we have doctors

46:40 on our staff, our doctor, our medical director, we have nurses, we have clinicians, licensed

46:45 clinicians. And so we treat all of these things and we do all these things as Christ-centered. And

46:53 the thought was for me and maybe someone thinking this, maybe someone who's over a minister, we're

46:59 a nonprofit as well. But my thought for the longest time was we can never step into the space with

47:04 insurance, with licensure, with accreditation. Because if we did, we couldn't talk about Jesus.

47:09 Right. And I think, I think common, that's, oh, yeah, that's true. Well, what I found out was,

47:15 you just have to hire doctors, you have to hire nurses, you have to hire clinicians,

47:19 one that loved Jesus like you do, and also think of addiction the way you do. And then all of a

47:23 sudden, if the state and if all these people try to say, no, you can't do that, because we're

47:28 signing off on it from a doctor, we're treating people with evidence-based, but our curriculum

47:33 that they go through five days a week is Christ-centered. It's straight from second Peter,

47:38 where it talks about, you can escape the corruption that's in the world that comes through sinful

47:41 desires, and that desires what we teach on. And then it gives seven things of growth and sanctification.

47:47 I think that that's a good thing to let people know is because there is this idea with these

47:52 faith-based programs. And I'm glad you made that delineation earlier. There are faith-based,

47:56 but you don't want to include all faiths, because people think that faith systems are

48:01 fundamentally the same. And they're different in very minor ways, but it's the exact opposite,

48:06 right? Even if just looking at Muslim and Christian, they have very, very different views as to the

48:10 person of Jesus. But I do want to go ahead and get in now that we're 45 minutes into the podcast.

48:14 I do want to go ahead and get into the forgotten pandemic. It feels like no time.

48:18 Yeah, we're just flying through at this point, but the forgotten pandemic, that's a documentary

48:23 that you guys put together that I think summarizes not only what S2L Recovery does,

48:28 but also summarizes some of the issues that are happening, why it's being ignored. There's a lot

48:32 of heavy hitters that you brought in there. So give me the backstory. How did the forgotten

48:36 pandemic come about? Why did you produce it? What have you seen? What kind of fruits have you seen

48:42 from that? Go ahead and lay it out for us. Yeah, so in January of 2020, right before the world

48:49 changed as we know it, before the COVID hit, we felt like it was time for us to do a new promo

48:55 video, like a three-minute promo video, just because the one we have is kind of old.

49:00 And so we reached out to a buddy of mine who's just a phenomenal videographer. His name's Denver.

49:07 He's done some really good work or the church stuff seen for corporate things. I've just seen,

49:12 I mean, he's got the eye and if someone has the it and you can't really describe the it,

49:15 but you know they have it, that's what I was looking for because I wanted to be cool. And so

49:19 I reached out, I said, yeah, let's get together. And then around that time, maybe a month or so

49:23 later, it's when, you know, COVID hit and chaos hit. Next thing, you know, we're locked down.

49:29 Next thing, you know, we feel just through prayer and things like that that the Lord called us

49:35 and just said, hey, you know, talking about our promo, you know, hey, this issue and this approach

49:42 is bigger than us too well and it's bigger than than just you guys. And we felt like he was wanting

49:47 us to put this message out in a unique way. And if you remember back in that time, there was a

49:53 lot of documentaries that were popping off with the last dance and social dilemma and even the Tiger

49:58 King, it would just seem like America was consuming, and still is consuming documentaries. And maybe

50:03 they were before, but it was, I feel like it was heightened. And so if we feel like he was, he was

50:08 saying, Hey, this is a project that we want you to do. And our guess was on the table. And no

50:14 experience ever making a film, no desire to ever make a film and never I was kind of played sports

50:18 and never had an artistic eye. But I approached Denver and I said, Hey man, kind of got a crazy

50:25 request. What do you think about this? And he's like, you know, I've never done that. But but I

50:30 believe in it, let's do it. And so God just began to open doors. And as you saw, Mark, Mark Hall

50:35 from casting crowns is interviewed in it and believe in it and then Zach Williams. And then we

50:41 had some politicians and some pastors and people going through it. So doors just began to open.

50:46 And it was it was a labor of love. If I know if I knew then what I know now about filmmaking,

50:53 I don't know that my guess would have been on the table as much. I mean, to be honest,

50:56 I would like to say I'm obedient. But I mean, man, this is this is and we wanted to I'll refuse

51:02 to do it if it was going to be cheesy and not quality. And I feel like we put out a pretty good

51:06 quality film. And but it's meticulous, man. I did not know that a minute of film could take hours

51:14 to edit. Yep. I mean, we had over 100 something hours of footage and it cut it down to a 40 minute

51:20 documentary. Like, that's like, I didn't know how meticulous it was. I didn't know all of the

51:25 stuff. And I mean, but I'm very thankful the feedback from it, the churches and just it's

51:35 almost it almost feels like a wake up call. And we kind of have this thing that we've been saying,

51:38 you know, from the rooms of recovery comes the revival of a nation. And and we feel like God's

51:44 kind of called us to be a part of that and to kind of lead the way because you think about it,

51:48 you look at the heroes of our faith in the word of God and they're not upstanding citizens for the

51:52 most part, a lot of a lot of them, you know, it's very clear that the Bible is clear to show their

51:56 flaws because it brings God more glory. And so yeah, we feel like, you know, through the recovery

52:02 world, we're going to step up and and allow God to use us to usher in revival. And that's our prayer.

52:08 Well, I've seen I have a pretty advanced cheese meter. And so when I watch something, I can pretty

52:14 quickly tell whether or not it's cheesy. Yeah, I feel like you guys have not you guys definitely

52:19 made a quality product that is going to be palatable for all audiences. And yes, I can understand

52:24 in a short video, like there's so many different cuts going to this person going to that person

52:28 and having people give their opinions and still try to tell some sort of a narrative. But there

52:32 was one quote specifically, and I'm pretty certain it was you. I'll attribute it to you. So even if

52:37 you didn't say you get the credit, but you said that these opioids that are going out there are

52:42 creating mundane functional people roaming the earth, mundane functional people roaming the earth,

52:49 give me a little bit more behind that because we've talked a lot about the opioids. But I think

52:53 this has a lot to do with the fact that this is not the epidemic that people are expecting because

52:59 again, nobody's shocked to see a bum on the side of the road with a needle in their arm passed out

53:05 because they kind of expect that like it's they lament it and they hate it and they think it's

53:09 terrible. But they expect that. But they're not expecting the person that they do coffee with every

53:15 week or the person that's in their Sunday school class or the doctor that they go see to be having

53:20 this issue. They're functional. They can look you in the eye, but it hasn't really gotten to that

53:24 crazy part. So give me a little bit more behind creating functional or mundane functional people

53:29 roaming their earth. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's almost like a chemical straight jacket. And so

53:35 not only opioids, but the medicine that they're giving people to get off of opioids, it is,

53:40 it's almost like a chemical straight jacket. And when I say that, you can kind of go back to the

53:45 Bible and Jesus talking to the Pharisees, he says, they're like, Oh, we're not slaves.

53:52 Because he says you're a slave to it. And we're not slaves. We're sons of Abraham. We've never

53:57 been slave to anyone, which obviously they don't even know their own history because

54:01 these are lots of enslaved all throughout. But Jesus responds, he says, if you sent, you're a slave

54:05 to your sin. And man, when the mindset is, is when you're on this stuff, you have to have it to function

54:12 like just to have a meeting that just to go to a lunch just to do this. Because if I don't have it,

54:18 for example, let's say that I've done, I've done opioids for 20 years and man, I went and I got this

54:23 prescription that's getting me all I'm maintenance medication that's not that, but it's this. And I'm

54:28 going to have this. And I, you know, and I don't have to go and chase these, these opiate pills.

54:32 Well, what happens? Let's say, let's say a scenario, if you want a cruise and you leave your medication

54:38 or forget your medication or whatever it may be, do you think that seven day cruise is going to be

54:43 enjoyable, enjoyed? No, you're going to be curled in a ball in your bed going through withdrawals.

54:48 Why? Because you're, you're a slave to the stuff, you have to have it to function. And so,

54:53 just mundane functionality, I guess is what I said, just roaming the earth for a while. I mean,

54:58 there's no fruit in your life. There's no, you could do things. And so, but God's called us to live a

55:04 life of abundance, you know, in this world, you will have trouble with take heart of overcoming

55:09 the world. And the thief comes on to kill still and destroy what I've come to give life and life

55:13 abundantly. And so when you're just functioning, when you're just surviving, what are you doing?

55:19 I mean, I guess the charge there is to believers and my brothers and sisters in Christ and live

55:24 a life of abundance, live life on a mission for God, not just surviving. You know, I mean,

55:30 I don't know, it goes back to being passive. And, you know, with a charge of wanting to spark

55:37 revival in the world, man, my call is to get your squirt gun. Let's go. Hell's coming. We're

55:41 going to charge it with these water pistols. And, you know, I don't care what the world thinks

55:46 anymore. And that's also why I think from the rooms to recover the revival of a nation, man,

55:50 because I don't give a rip anymore, man. I've been in the pit of hell. I've been, I've already

55:54 been looked at as damaged goods in a secondary citizen because of my lifestyle. So I don't give

55:59 a rip, man. So what God says, let's go. And I think if that were just the mindset, our country

56:06 would look a lot different are the division in this world would be less. I just, yeah, I don't know.

56:13 I'm with you on all that. No, man, we're going to keep, we're going to keep getting back on

56:17 that soapbox and off it as well. But I do think that that's a big deal because

56:20 people need to look at this a little bit differently. They need to know the warning signs. So one

56:25 thing that you that came up for me as you were talking is people kind of know the warning signs

56:30 now because human trafficking has been talked about a lot. So if you see a young lady, maybe a

56:35 young teenage gal and she's looking around, maybe she's got a bruise on her eye or a busted lip.

56:40 And she's with a couple of guys at a truck stop or at a restaurant or something like that.

56:45 She doesn't look like she's actually with them. She's just with them at the moment.

56:49 We kind of know what to look for. And if those guys get up to go to the bathroom and go to pay

56:53 the check, Hey, are you doing okay? Are these guys with you? We know what to look for, right?

56:57 Like we've seen it enough. It's been dramatized on television enough. But we haven't seen enough

57:02 about these functional addicts that are working through their everyday life on opioids. And the

57:08 problem is, is there's not a long runway before these people's lives completely are overrun and

57:13 their lives are destroyed or they lose them. I mean, just think about it. How many of you know

57:18 someone who's been using fentanyl for a long time, right? Like is because everyone knows

57:22 someone that's used cigarettes for a long time, someone that's abused alcohol for a long time.

57:26 Do you know anyone that's abused fentanyl for any length of time? You don't because they're dead

57:30 already, right? And so it's it's getting us into a different mindset and be able to look at things

57:35 a little bit of a different way. But I did see something in in the podcast. Just so not everyone

57:39 thinks that we're just, you know, in love on this entire podcast agreeing on everything.

57:43 I got to push back on something I saw in the podcast because I'm a little bit,

57:46 I'm a little bit pessimistic. My personality, I can admit. But in the documentary, you talk about how

57:51 eventually these massive insurance companies will just have to support and cosign Christian

58:00 base, I won't say faith based, but Christian based recovery programs, because the data are going to

58:05 be too overwhelming that they work that that it's better than what we've been doing with these

58:10 other programs or these other, you know, books or these other 12 steps or something like that.

58:15 In my opinion, I'm not so sure that because most of these big secular organizations,

58:20 regardless of the industry that they're in, they can't really let down their secular guard and say

58:27 that this specifically Christian program is what we're going to support because then it kind of

58:33 goes against what they're trying to do, what they're trying to build. You talked about it earlier.

58:37 Hey, this person's had recovery in the past, so we can't really pay for this moving forward.

58:41 It doesn't make a lot of sense. I just don't buy it. I don't see that they're going to have to do

58:45 that someday. Some of them, the smaller ones might relent and do that. But again, feel free to push

58:50 back on me. I'm just feeling pessimistic about it. No, and I think that's fair. And I mean,

58:55 I guess the problem is if I did, and I'm pessimistic too, but at the same time there's areas that

59:02 I'm optimistic because if I was pessimistic about this, I'd become lazy and I wouldn't

59:06 collect the data because that's not easy to collect accurate data. I mean, you're following

59:11 up after a few years after someone's been home for a year. I wouldn't do it if I just thought it

59:15 wouldn't affect anything. And so I guess I'll educate maybe the audience or maybe no one,

59:24 but I kind of feel like there's three. There's big pharma. There's big rehab is a big business,

59:31 to be honest. And then there's insurance, right? And insurance is kind of intertwined in all of them,

59:37 but insurance is the one that I'm kind of talking about because if it's all about the money for

59:43 them, let's just be real. And if insurance company knows that, hey, my client, I have data that there's

59:50 data here of, man, they go to this place one time. And man, I haven't had a treat anymore ER visits,

59:56 I haven't had to pay for these prescriptions. We haven't had any more incidences in this many

1:00:00 years. We'll pay for this now, right, as opposed to relapse after relapse, rehab after rehab after

1:00:09 prescription after prescription after counseling after counseling. And so I think it's just a numbers

1:00:14 game. But I'm with you. I mean, just to think that the people aren't going to be brain broke anymore,

1:00:20 or people aren't going to have these absurd thoughts anymore is probably hopeful for me. But I guess

1:00:26 my thought was they're going to see the numbers are going to see the financial that it makes financial

1:00:31 sense for them to pay for this one time, as opposed to that 10 times. Sure.

1:00:36 I hope you're right. I certainly hope you are. I want, I want to believe that that's something

1:00:41 that can happen. And part of that is, again, you and I are both covered in the blood of Christ,

1:00:46 and we both admitted that we're pessimistic. But again, I think that's a part of our personality,

1:00:49 that is something that we should keep, because we're going to look at something just a little bit

1:00:52 of scant, the person that's always positive, everything's always going to work out. And then

1:00:55 it just doesn't, it's like, yeah, you're positive outlook prior to didn't change the outcome. And

1:00:59 so I always look at something and I'm like, how could this be better? Like, whether it's a show,

1:01:03 or whether it's a book, or whether it's, you know, documentary, or even, you know, just an overall

1:01:06 philosophy is like, how could this be better? How could this be a little bit more airtight? But hey,

1:01:11 we've covered a lot of ground today. I really appreciate all the time that you've given us.

1:01:14 But I like to do a segment towards the end of my show, it's called, what would you say to someone

1:01:18 that said? And so what I do is I say that and then I fill in the blank with a statement. And here's

1:01:23 the deal, it's lightning round, you get 30 seconds or less to answer. And I will keep you to that 30

1:01:28 seconds. And it's just going to, you have to give us the mean potatoes answer, whether it's about a

1:01:31 big topic or a small topic, but it's just kind of a cool way to wrap up. So are you up for it?

1:01:36 Yeah, yeah. So 30 seconds to answer one or 30 seconds to answer all of the ones you have.

1:01:40 You get 30 seconds for each of them. Right. So yeah, if it was 30 seconds for all of them,

1:01:44 you'd be able to say like the or poop or like you wouldn't be able to answer it like, you know,

1:01:48 legitimately. So I'm going to say a statement, you get 30 seconds to answer. Okay. All right,

1:01:53 first one here. What would you say to someone that said, addiction is a disease? Define disease.

1:02:00 That'd be a good place to start for them. All right, next one here. And again,

1:02:04 you have a full 30 seconds. If you want it, what would you say to someone that said,

1:02:08 drug overdoses are an overblown story. We really need to be worried about COVID.

1:02:12 Oh, like this game. 30 seconds. I already started the clock. Yeah, the timer.

1:02:26 Here's data. Here's data. Yeah. Look, open your eyes. Yeah, it's not exactly the same thing.

1:02:33 All right. Turn off your TV and look at the real, the truth. Yeah, sorry. Here we go.

1:02:37 What would you say to someone that said, I don't care about God. I just want to get better.

1:02:41 I don't care about God. I just want to get better. I mean, people have said that and we would just,

1:02:47 I guess I would say in 30 seconds, I would say,

1:02:52 let's see. Give me a 10 second when I'm at the 10 second warning. I don't care about God. I just

1:03:00 want to get better. I would say, um, I don't know. I mean, Jeff Darman would, would say, uh, and you

1:03:11 know, yeah, you do. You know God, you love God, but you just don't, you just don't admit it. Um,

1:03:16 I mean, I don't know that you, I don't know that you can get better without God as I guess my answer.

1:03:23 Yeah. I think there's a worldview issue and a lot of these people, uh, they pretend like God

1:03:28 exists, but they just actively ignore that he's there kind of a thing. All right. Next one here.

1:03:32 What would you say to someone that said pharmaceutical companies aren't the bad guys?

1:03:35 They help so many people. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that I think they could be both. I think

1:03:41 they're definitely again, I think medication is a common grace of God, a mercy of God, science,

1:03:48 mercy, common grace of God given to us. Uh, but man, I've seen too much to think that there's

1:03:53 not some major implication. I mean, they're being sued. How do good guys get sued and lose? Yeah,

1:03:59 but not this level. Uh, some of these companies are paying out billions of dollars to states.

1:04:04 Yeah. Absolutely. Uh, it's not always, uh, as easy as we'd like it to be. Uh, what would you say

1:04:10 to someone that said Christian recovery programs are just 12 step programs with a few Bible verses

1:04:16 sprinkled in? Yeah. Um, I think I'd say you're right. There, there are a lot of those, uh,

1:04:22 that's true. Um, but not all. And then I would hand them our curriculum and let them read it. I

1:04:28 think that's true. That's a true thing. That's a true statement for some. Um, but not all,

1:04:33 not all. All right. Next one here. What would you say to someone that says I work in sales in

1:04:38 the pharmaceutical industry? Am I complicit in killing people? Um, goodness gracious,

1:04:47 working sales, which pharmaceutical cut now? Um, I mean, I think convictions, I'm, I'm not the

1:04:53 Holy spirit, but if you feel like you're pushing a drug, I mean, what are you selling? If you're

1:04:58 selling Tylenol or, I mean, are you selling Oxycontin, right? I mean, and if you're selling Oxycontin,

1:05:04 and here's the data and you're still doing it, maybe, um, if you don't have conviction and you're a

1:05:09 believer and you're, you're aware of what you're selling and the outcome. No, I don't, I don't think

1:05:14 you're, uh, complicit. All right. Just a couple more here. What would you say to someone that said,

1:05:19 my friend is an addict. I don't know what to do. Um, reach out and research, Christ center

1:05:26 addiction recovery places. Go to s2lrecovery.org now, uh, reach out. And when you do, I always say

1:05:33 this, make it as easy as possible, uh, for them to walk into a place of recovery and as hard as

1:05:38 possible for them to stay in the life of addiction, meaning how boundaries don't enable, do these

1:05:42 things, um, but go to, and when you research recovery, make it sure it's Christ center.

1:05:47 All right. Last question of the day, Adam, what would you say to someone that said,

1:05:51 I'm addicted. I've tried everything. There's no way out. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. I feel that.

1:05:58 That's, that's the way I felt too. And then, you know, but God being rich in mercy and I would

1:06:04 encourage them that there's hope and they don't, and everything that you've heard in this,

1:06:08 this journey that you've been walking in man of recovery and you've been told that you're always

1:06:11 going to be this just know, man, that's from the pits of hell and you've been missing for them.

1:06:15 There's absolutely. And guys, I know if you're still listening to this is because the subject

1:06:19 matter is very important to you. But to any of you listening to this, you know how to get a

1:06:22 hold of me info at undaunted.life. That's the direct email that I see every day. I NFO at

1:06:28 undaunted.life. If you feel like you're in that place, I can get you to Adam. I can get you to,

1:06:32 to other places. It's the same thing when I've talked about suicide on this, this podcast or

1:06:36 something like that. Again, I'm not qualified to help you in any way, shape or form, except I can

1:06:41 get you to someone that can help you. I can talk you through it a little bit. Just reach out. That's

1:06:46 the only part that you have to do is reach out. Okay. We'll make sure that you get the help that

1:06:50 you need. But Adam, thank you so much for giving all the time. We've talked about a lot of stuff.

1:06:54 We've covered a lot of ground on this podcast. But as for now, that is all for me. Is there

1:06:57 anything else you want to get off your chest? Yeah, man. Thank you so much for having me. I'm

1:07:02 really glad I was introduced to undaunted. It's kind of a podcast for me, for men with the beard.

1:07:10 But I would say similar to, as you said earlier, someone, a church man, go into your pasture and

1:07:17 tell them you have your back. I would say if you're interested in recovery and having

1:07:21 recovery ministry, do the same thing. Come and check us out. We'll train you and walk you through.

1:07:27 After the documentary aired, we've trained countless churches and countless states on how to have

1:07:31 just a weekly, replacing an AA or an NA or whatever you're not pleased with, with a lost and found

1:07:37 recovery in Christ meeting. And we'll walk you through that with the curriculum.

1:07:40 And guys, we'll have all that information in the show notes. So you can check it out there.

1:07:44 Adam Comer, thank you so much for coming on undaunted life of man's podcast. Kyle, thank you, man.

1:07:48 There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Adam Comer. But before we let you go,

1:07:52 we are going to do a quick resilience boost at undaunted life. Our mission is equipping

1:07:56 men to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual mental and physical resilience. So

1:08:00 here are the links I've got for you today. I've got a link directly to the forgotten pandemic

1:08:03 documentary, but I've also got links to the S2L recovery website, S2L studio site, and also the

1:08:09 life after addiction podcast, which is pastor Adam's podcast. All right, guys, thanks so much for

1:08:13 listening to the show. We do appreciate it. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe,

1:08:17 rate and leave us a positive five star review. If you want to come speak live at your event or on

1:08:21 your podcast, just shoot me an email to info at undaunted.life. That's I N F O at undaunted.life.

1:08:27 You can also follow us on Instagram and TikTok and like us on Facebook and check out our website

1:08:31 for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.

1:08:34 Just go to www dot undaunted.life. And we want to also thank the band August Burns Red for allowing

1:08:40 us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song cutting the ties,

1:08:44 which is off their 10th anniversary re-recording of their album leveler. The links are in the

1:08:48 description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep

1:08:55 forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.

1:09:25 [Music]