Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape, they wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones, they wish they had more success and influence at work, and some other stuff like that. But, here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient, and now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about. The Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources, and they include titles from authors like Voddie Bauckham, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Tripp, J.I. Packer, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies, courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias, non-fiction books, and more, and more, and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But, if you get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, you'll get all 200-plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks. Guys, that's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time and these won't help you with your discipleship and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com /undaunted.life. That's www.logos.com/undaunted.life or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/undaunted.life, sign up for logos and get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle right now. Hey guys, real quick, I just wanted to remind you that we have an official Undaunted Life Store. You can go to shop.undaunted.life or check it out in the show notes. Guys, we're always going to have hats and shirts and a bunch of other awesome stuff. Go there, support us, wear the mission. Again, it's shop.undaunted.life. Check out the link in the show notes. shop.undaunted.life. [clears throat] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Ryan. That's Zach. What the heck is wrong with you, Caleb? We finally got this thing going. Ryan's got this thing all squared away. Hey, Ryan, is there a remnant of the cowboy hat I was wearing left on my forehead? Is there a remnant? Look at my camera. >> There's a remnant. >> Remnant. >> Remnant. >> Just say it. Just say it. Just say it. Just a remnant. >> Remnant. >> Remnant. >> No, that's a ribbit. So, that's like what that's what we're trying to do. Yes, you can. You've done it before. >> remit >> No. >> remnant >> remnant >> Not remnant. >> That was pretty close, right? >> remnant remnant >> There it is. There it is. >> remnant >> We got it. And what exactly were y'all singing off air a second ago? >> [laughter] >> You were singing >> I was singing So I was telling Caleb I was reading 13 through 16 and it was like Paul was talking about saving his Jewish brethren. Like if only some of them could be saved. I was like God just laid on my heart Adam Sandler how much I love Adam Sandler. >> And I was I was very lost until I was 17. So all of Adam Sandler's old CDs which are terrible. >> [laughter] [clears throat] >> It reminded me of that. >> Wait, so you didn't get caught up in the whole burn your secular CDs Christian thing? All that? You wouldn't have gotten caught gotten Did you Yeah, you wouldn't have been caught up in that. >> No, not really. I had DC Talk. >> I remember, man, I it was really hard [laughter] to let let go those Slipknot CDs, but I literally gave them Actually, you know what? They weren't destroyed. I gave them to a buddy to hang on to. I was like, "In case >> [laughter] >> In case this whole Christian thing doesn't work out, I really want these CDs back." >> So back when I was a kid, I was like me and my buddy were at the mall and we're like 14. And this was in Iowa, so we had like Laser 103.3 and there was like a personality kind of like Howard Stern personality. His name is Mancow up in like that part of Mancow >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I grew up in Kansas. Maybe it was just a normal >> But uh so he'd have this like Mancow Major League which was like a concert. So like we're coming around we're like walking along and this guy's like from Laser 103.3 out there. He's like, "Hey, you want to sign up for the Mancow Major League raffle tickets?" We're like, "Sure." So we like sign up and like he goes, "Here's Here's some CDs." So he throws out a Lenny Kravitz CD and he throws out I don't know if I can say this, but the band that did Blue Monday >> Yep. >> So he throws out an Orgy CD. >> You've said worse. >> [laughter] >> I asked for the Orgy album for Christmas. Didn't know what Orgy meant. >> This This gets better. This gets better. This gets better. So So like we fight over this Orgy CD. I win. I get the Orgy CD. He gets the Lenny Kravitz CD. So we get home. [laughter] I get home. His mom and dad drop me off and I walk in my house and my dad's like, "What were you doing?" And I was like, "Well, what do you mean?" He's like, "Where have you been?" And I was like, "I was at the mall." And he's like, "What were you doing at the mall?" And I was like, >> Getting an orgy. >> [laughter] >> Wait, you didn't say that. >> No. No. No. I didn't. Um I was like, we were Alex and I were just hanging out. Like He's like, "What did you get?" And I was like, uh I got like a shirt and a CD. He's like, "You bought a CD?" I was like, "No, it was given to me." And he goes, "Well, I just got a call that you won some Man Cow Major League tickets." And I I was like, "Oh, I did?" He's like, "You're not going to that. I told you [laughter] you're not going to that." I was like, "I could have at least sold them. Probably made 200 bucks, you know?" And he's like, "Well, what CD did you get?" And I pulled it out. He's like, "Orgy? You even know what that is?" And I'm like, [laughter] No. He made me break it in front of him. >> How old were you? >> I was like 13, 14. Yeah. >> How did that feel? >> It sucked. >> [laughter] >> Uh yeah, that's not any good. And CDs don't break that easy. It's kind of scary. Sometimes they don't shatter in exactly the same way. >> Just remind me that time when Richie threw me under for the Aerosmith Big Ones CD. I was like, I keep getting caught. >> I definitely [laughter] have to had to hide my CDs as a kid. But my genre was more like it was like Tupac, DMX, Master P. >> Yeah. >> All that. >> Objectification of women and it's terrible. >> Oh gosh, you listen to the lyrics now and you're like, >> It was It was a few years ago. Shannon was a We have Alexa, right? And I'm like in the other room and I hear her say, um I hear her say put on whatever she said, like 90s hip hop or something. >> Was it Ruff Ryders' Anthem that came >> So she's like, I'm in the other room. Our kids are old enough to know what's going on. >> [laughter] >> And she's like, "Put on some 90s hip hop." And I hear from the other room, "I won't deny it. I'm a straight ride. AND I WAS LIKE, [laughter] >> OH MY GOSH. >> HEY, BUT THAT I MEAN, THERE ARE SOME OF THOSE things where it's kind of weird though whenever you see the power of music. Like we were talking about this on a on a text thread earlier like when uh when people get like so focused in on like a university, right? So uh whether in you know, that university can do no wrong. And you're like you're wondering, why is this person in their their 40s or 50s? Like why is this person so like, you know, >> militant. >> Yes, militant's the perfect word about defending their university, defending their program, like critiquing and all that. It's like, well, when your you when your brain's developing as a teenager when most of these people go to college and then your early 20s, like the attachment to certain sounds, like the first few bars of Ruff Ryders' Anthem, I was like, sorry, I'm a millennial that grew up in a hip-hop town. Like I'm I'm sorry, I'm just going to keep going with whatever is being said. And like you know, there's there's very there's very few things where it's like you can hear 2 seconds of a song and it takes you back to that time when you first heard it, to the music videos when music videos were still a thing. >> Bone Thugs N Harmony things. >> kind of go out down in my house like, you know, me I'll I'll throw out like random lyrics. I got the Hanukkah song pulled up right now. I'll throw out a >> What you say? You sing the lyrics correctly? Is that what's happening? >> you were going to make me sing it. I was going to have to [laughter] Nobody wants that. Man, I got the voice of an angel, man. I'm like the songbird of my generation. >> [laughter] >> This is what it's like talking to him. This is what it's like in real life, too, by the way, ladies and gentlemen. >> You have to be in a music video, right? I mean, >> Yeah, I mean, shoot. Were you at Were you at the Super Bowl party when we did the Yeah, we did some karaoke and it was pretty fun. But no, so I'll like throw out like random lyrics or like random quotes from movies and somehow I have some DMX stuff going because my daughter is like four at the time, maybe five. And we put down this meal that she likes. She goes, stop, drop [laughter] open up shop. >> She didn't shut them down. >> [laughter] >> SHE WAS LIKE, NO, SHUT THEM DOWN. >> OPEN UP SHOP AND I WAS LIKE >> [laughter] >> I was like what just happened? >> So she's in the Ruff Ryders? >> Let's go. [laughter] >> So Rachel like Rachel looks at me and she's like I was like all I know is I always say stop drop shut him down open up shop. Like she I said that's that's it. She's like you better have never finished the lyrics. [laughter] >> Yeah, it's part of one of those things too like I used to you know just have shuffle playing in the car and when the boys were really young it's like I didn't really even pay attention to what was playing we just had a kind of music on but now that they like know stuff and repeat stuff it's like okay. Yeah, so we got to be like real careful so we have our own playlist. >> Can't play Anthem by Blink 182 anymore. [laughter] >> Uh there are some that I just yeah yeah bring the volume down to nothing but yeah there's a you know we have a long playlist that mom and dad can add songs to and so it's stuff that mom and dad like so that's the benefit of it and so it's like if the boys like it at all they're like add it to the playlist. Let's freaking go. >> Do you guys remember what your first CD was? >> I do. >> Petra. No Doubt. >> Petra? >> Yeah. >> Crazy Sexy Cool from TLC. >> That was [laughter] my With that bright green cover. >> First CD that was it. >> I mean I owned it but it wasn't my first one. >> First one? We didn't have a CD player until that >> I have no clue. I have no clue. I just remember doing a lot of Napster and custom CDs. >> [laughter] >> He was making mix CDs for his ladies. He's like drop this this is for you. >> You know Napster is still a thing by the way. >> Seriously? >> Yeah. >> Napster is still around? >> Yeah, if you have like a >> Yeah, you can get a Napster shirt at Gadzooks I heard. >> Do you guys still go to the mall? >> Yeah. Yeah. I go there and I update my Zenga page. >> [laughter] >> So anything else going on Zach? What what what in what form is Napster right now? >> You can go to their website. You can plug in your URL. You should do this. >> Mine was Collective Soul by the way. >> Collective Soul. For your business you can go to their website plug in your URL. >> You can go to napster.com. >> It'll convert yeah just Google it. It'll convert your website into a >> want to do it. You just said convert >> avatar experience of your business. >> Yeah, these are all AI people. They These aren't real people. I don't like this. >> it. >> AI agents you can see, talk to, and create with. Yeah, I don't want any part of this. >> Yeah, just plug it in there. It'd be great. >> Yeah, I'm not going to. All right, you [laughter] can do your You You first. Yeah, go and plug in your website. Ooh, I don't want to do that. We just gave free advertising to this thing. This is part of what's going to take us over. This is Skynet, okay? [laughter] This should be skynet.com >> Did Seth Green put this together? >> Yes. Wasn't he like one of the very first podcasters? >> Seth Green >> Tom Green >> Oh, Tom Green. That's >> Seth is an actor. >> Seth is an actor. It's from If you watch Italian Job, he's like, "Call me Napster." He says, "I created it." >> That scene where he talks about the Holy Spirit though is really funny. >> When the Italian Job? >> Yeah. He's celebrating like in an airport and everyone looks at him and he's like, "I got that Holy Spirit." >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's pretty good. >> well, hey, I don't know a great that we could transition to being grafted in, but hey, we we've Think of the list of references we made in the first few minutes of this. We had DMX, Master P, we had The Italian Job, TLC It was my first album. Okay, I'm just saying it was >> It's a good CD. >> It It's a good CD. Right? Did you have a favorite out of T-Boz, Left Eye, and Chilli? Yep, I remember the names. >> I like Left Eye. >> Let's go Left Eye. She wore the little eye black >> She was married to Andre Rison. Didn't she like try and kill him or something? >> She said she like lit his house on fire in something >> Was it T-Boz that passed away? >> Uh Left Eye's mom. >> Left Eye's gone. >> RIP >> Left Eye. >> RIP >> That's rough. >> Well, now I'm all of a sudden like cuz I know Chilli's still alive, but let me just go ahead and say is T- Is T-Boz still alive? Which why do we still remember all those names? >> Chilli's dating somebody like famous now. >> She was the one that I liked. I was trying to remember. I was kind of surprised. >> She's A month ago she was hospitalized, T-Boz, maybe a sickle cell scare, so we can be praying for T-Boz and her sickle cell issues. This is going off the rails. I don't want to go any farther in surgery but [clears throat] you know No, I don't want you to read it. Actually, yes, if you would like to read the Bible cuz that's how we're actually here to do. I think it's Caleb's calling. You talked about Alexa. >> [laughter] >> Chilli's dating Matthew Lawrence. >> Who's Matthew Lawrence? >> The guy from Mrs. Doubtfire, plays like Joey Lawrence's brother. >> Joey Lawrence's younger brother? >> Like what if HE'S >> YOUNGER BROTHER? >> YEAH, I WAS LIKE I WAS LIKE I WAS GOING THROUGH LIKE Boy Meets World stuff and I was like, "Oh, Matthew Lawrence." And then I saw he got divorced and I was like he's dating Chilli. >> All right. >> What you know about that, Zach? >> nothing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, nothing. >> Robin Williams, but >> Hey, can we talk about underrated of a funny movie that is? >> We watched it a few weeks ago. >> I remember dying like this maybe about 10 years ago, but I remember just sitting there watching it by myself absolutely dying. And cuz Robin Williams was >> so good. And like whenever he hit that guy, so here's a funny Mrs. Doubtfire story and then we're getting right back into this. >> [laughter] >> Okay, so that scene where he hits what is it, Pierce Brosnan? >> YES. >> SO PIERCE >> [laughter] >> LET IT BUILD. LET IT BUILD. >> [laughter] >> STOLE THE PUNCHLINE. >> GOD, NO, I'M CHANGING the punchline, you captain jerk face. >> [laughter] >> All right. >> So you got Mrs. Doubtfire, they're at the pool, Pierce Brosnan comes up to get some drinks, he's taking off, he's walking out of there with his tan hairy chest, and then Mrs. Doubtfire, Robin Williams, Mrs. Doubtfire, [laughter] Robin Williams, hits him in the back of the head like with a piece of fruit or whatever. >> And then the funny line is what, Ryan? Go ahead, hit it again. >> Oh my gosh, IT WAS A DRIVE-BY FRUITING. >> Drive-by [laughter] fruiting. First of all, two things about that. Number one, that was not in the script. Robin Williams basically ad-libbed that. That's [laughter] not in the script. Second thing, that was the first shot. >> Oh, wow. >> First [laughter] freaking shot. Cuz that was cuz there was no they're not going to do CGI for Miss Doubtfire. He literally from however far away that is I mean it was a an absolute [laughter] wreck. Right in the back of the head. So much so that because they had told him before and they're like we're probably not going to get the shot. We'll do some sort of whatever thing. So that look on Pierce Brosnan's face >> Very real. >> shot. [laughter] Because he's supposed to walk away and not get hit by anything and he got destroyed by a lime [laughter] or or next to something. >> It was an orange? >> Yeah. He got absolutely destroyed by but hey hey how many times have I had to get on to you about letting things build on the show, okay? You got to let it build. That's okay. That's okay. >> I'm good at one-liners and I I was early. >> We keep bringing you back because we we like how you prepare. We like how you the things you bring to this so >> about first fruits anyway. SO >> YEAH. >> NICE. >> NICE. >> [laughter] >> YOU gave it to us. >> I yeah. My bad. All right. I teed it up and then had no idea someone was going to spike it. >> back and totally redeemed it. >> You know what Zach, how about you go and read since you were chopping at the bit over there. You didn't have a whole lot to say on the DMX T-Boz conversation so now we can chat. You're going to do 17 18 19 20 21. So you're going to go 17 through 21. >> Okay. 17 through 21. >> But if some of the branches were broken off and you although wild olive shoot were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you if you are, remember it is not you who support the root but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. >> There's a lot here. This is a really interesting section. I want to kick us off. I thought the MacArthur short commentary had a really interesting thing just about olive trees in general so I do want to read that. Olive trees would live for a very long time, but eventually some of their branches would stop producing olives. So, younger, more productive branches would be grafted in. In this case, old, unproductive branches, Israel, were broken off and branches from the wild olive tree, a wild olive tree, which were the Gentiles, were placed in. I thought that was like a a perfect thing that kind of helped cuz if you don't know anything about I don't know anything about olive trees, I couldn't pick one out of a lineup. But, kind of knowing that, okay, there are these branches that are there, but they big they became decorative, right? They weren't producing anything anymore. Is an olive a fruit? I almost said producing fruits. >> Fruits have seeds in them. >> Yeah, so yeah, it's got a pit, it's a fruit. >> So, it's not producing fruit anymore, and then it's just like, but it's taking up space. I kind of think about it in the hunting context. I know a lot of hunters in our audience, and so it's like you try to kill, you know, if you're elk hunting, you want to try to kill a mature bull because you may have a bull that's not really it's already passed on, you know, its genetics and all those different things. Now, it's just old enough to potentially hurt and kill younger bulls that need to pass on their genetics. And so, you want to try to get someone, uh you know, something like that out of the gene pool or whatever. But, then seeing that, hey, you know, you were old and un- unproductive, right? You would spend all this time with your stiff-necked ways and indifferent things, to where you've got this new offshoot, these Gentiles, that are going to be grafted in, all the while understanding, uh you know, I mean, verse 18, right? Uh do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Uh don't be anti-Semitic, right? Because your favorite podcaster doesn't like the Jews very much, that is not a license for you to hate on the Jews. But, the reminder is is even if you're grafted in, there are roots to that tree. And where do the roots come from? Those those roots are the roots of Israel, the roots of the chosen elect of God, and the chosen people of God, uh more specifically. So, yeah, let's get into this discussion. Very interesting section. >> I really like focus on the root because the root [clears throat] is Christ, and Christ came from the line of who? Abraham. Jacob and Isaac and Jacob. And so it's like we have to focus that that those are the chosen people and like when I thought of the the actual tree it's like all right, here's all these things, but then you have these Jews that are not focused on Christ, are not focused on what the root provided. They want to be away from the root and do it on their own. And we get to be grafted in because we have faith in the root. And so it's just like we should be lucky that our eyes are open to the beauty of that root. Because we as Gentiles it was not. >> [clears throat] >> In the you were reading from it was a MacArthur? >> Yeah, from his one volume commentary. >> So they would purposefully remove those branches correct? >> Yes, and they would graft in and uh Yeah, they would prune them and they would graft in branches from a wild olive tree. >> Yeah. I just think I and I was wondering too like the uh 18, do not be arrogant toward the branches. Uh if you are, remember it's not you who supports the root, but the root that supports you. I'm I'm wondering if like there are a lot of and even actually the the church that I grew up in if we could I guess the cult I grew up in, like they um believed that this was kind of justification for like the new Israel, right? Um that like that like Americans or in their case I think it was actually um uh British that they replaced Israel, right? As in like the that branch is gone and now it's about us, right? And I couldn't I've never done like a deep dive or anything into um like Jehovah's Witness or different things, but I I do think that there are some of those other kind of cultish type things that look at this verse as like >> They've been grafted in. >> That's yeah, there's we're the new Israel, right? I don't know if you guys >> [clears throat] >> Was that was your church saying that like so the British and then obviously they're saying basically America, Americans like we are the new thing that's been grafted in. >> We're the new chosen. >> Yeah, I'd not I'd not heard that before. >> You should do a deep dive on that. >> And then report back later. >> Oh yeah, I know you're trying to I'm trying to get >> Deep down, yeah. while you're looking that up I know you had something to say, Zach. >> Yeah, I don't know. I just kind of look for the application part of this, you know, it says they were broken off because of their unbelief. But you stand fast through faith. Do not become proud, but fear. So, I guess we're talking about this in and you know, from a people's standpoint, the entire population, but then how is that applicable on an individual basis, you know? I know that, you know, we're saved through faith and and we're saved through belief primarily. Um but it's very clear here, you know, fear God every day and uh you know, try to not be haughty. I'm reading a lot of Proverbs recently, which has been humbling because I'm reading it more about me um being the person that's violating all of those commandments as opposed to thinking about somebody else that's acting like a fool or simple or whatever. And so, just the pride component of this and the fear God first has become really prevalent in in my reading at least. Um but yeah, I don't know. I try to look for what's personally applicable about some of these these verses. >> I think certainly the it's kind of an admonishment, but then the four if you did not spare natural branches, neither will he spare you, but obviously so do not the previous verse, verse 20, so do not become proud, but fear. >> Yeah, mhm. >> [clears throat] >> This goes back to the it's you wake up on third base thinking you hit a triple kind of a thing. It's like, bro, you didn't do that. Um But if you have no reverent fear for the Lord, because I think you could make the argument that part of the reason why Israel went the way that it went is because they they'd lost all fear of God. They had knowledge of God, but they lost all fear and the fear here is reverence, right? A reverent fear, not like, oh my gosh, he's going to get me, but like a reverent fear of his placement versus your placement and also any [clears throat] blessings that would come your way. >> Well, even more so, like I know we stopped at 21, but I mean, just going right here to 22, it says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God. Severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you provided you provided you continue in his kindness. So, I guess one thing that also kind of hit me as I'm I'm kind of finishing up Deuteronomy right now as part of as part of my reading. And I'm at the point where God is through Moses telling everybody before they go into the promised land with Joshua what blessings they will have if they continue in the fear of God. And it's an amazing thing, right? But when you're reading it, it's a real short section. Then he goes into what the curses will be if you don't proceed in the fear of God and the belief in God. And it is unbelievably graphic what what he describes will happen to families and kids and all sorts of things, you know? And so, I've thought about this verse many times. Note the severity and the kindness of God. And how how serious this is, you know, the fear of God's a real thing. So. >> I feel like when I was reading that like one thing that I always think of is like we always in our time kind of like where we are in the modern churches we focus on God is love. God is love and God is love, you know? But I feel like we we lose out on knowing God's justice and God's righteousness. >> Holiness. >> And holiness cuz it's encompasses all of that is what holiness does. And when you read that, you just think of like, you know, like whenever I hear God is love, it's like, yeah, I get that. But like how are how are we utilizing love? Like we'll get into it further about the mysteries of God and the knowledge of God that we we don't even know what true love is that God knows. But we also don't know what true justice is either. And so, it's like I I I heard somebody make the comment one time is like, well, I don't want to limit God's love. But if we limit God's love, if we're if we think that we're not limiting God's love, sometimes we can limit his justice. And that's one thing I think that we're seeing now in our evangelical churches right now is we're seeing a lot of limiting of his justice and limiting of his righteousness on the basis of trying to build out a kind of secularized love. So, I don't know. That's just something that I was thinking of when I saw that. >> Well, that person I mean, that person shouldn't be concerned. They can't limit God's love, you know. That's that's kind of his domain. >> Yeah. >> But there's been a lot of these conversations I've been involved in, too. I mean, you have to take both sides of the equation. You know, I had a conversation recently with a group of people. This is on the East Coast and they're talking about LGBTQ and everything that comes with that and God is love and and when you start getting back to the basis of scripture and you start to counteract those discussions, then they start to challenge, is the scripture really real? Well, it's a historical account, so you can go back to Christ. And then I think you and I talked about this. One of the guys at the table, we started talking about Paul and he said, well, how do we know that that's really what Paul wrote? And you go back to John Lennox's comment. I think I heard a snake say that one time in the garden, you know. >> such a killer line. >> I know. I was like, every time I hear, well, how do we really know? >> [clears throat] >> You know, I was like, that's that's what Satan does. That's the questioning that Satan >> And he he chose a dragon if you want to be most accurate, but [laughter] anyway, but >> You know what? Let's let's let's get it out of the way. Did I finally tell it say I agree that it's a dragon? >> Yeah, you did. Well, actually, you know what? We can't just pass that through as a slide in. Did you make your comment because this is actually a really big thing. >> No, go. Go for it. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Satan's Satan's a dragon. >> What convinced you? >> Yeah. What? After years at this point of uh It was just like I think it was it was something somebody said in regards to serpent. And when you go back and you look at it through the lens of the Greek and the Hebrew, it came back to a dragon sort of thing. And so I had I can't go against what the text says, you know? And so I have to I have to I have to say I was wrong and that Satan is a dragon. It was dragon. >> Now, do I think it's a dragon? Do I think it was like a dragon? Do So, do we think and I know you've addressed this in the past, so we don't have to be like that. >> But, wings and fire? Or is that, you know, remains to be interpreted? >> it was some sort of serpent type dragon. Like, I don't think it had wings and fire. It was >> But, not a Komodo dragon? >> I think it could be bigger than that. Well, >> Two legs or four? >> Here's Here's like like Like, here's the hard part that I have to think about is like is like the serpent Was there a serpent or a snake in the garden? But, at first the serpent probably had to start out with legs, so it was some sort of a dragon. That's now a snake. So, and if a if a snake had legs and it's a reptile, then it would be it would be more of a dragon-esque type of >> We don't also know how many dragons were in the garden. We just assume there was the one. >> But, there was I think there's multiple dragons in the fact that even throughout history, you know, we still see pictures of dragons whether it's in the Far East or >> Yeah, you're starting to sound like someone I know. >> So, uh so, >> [laughter] >> you know, I was like, "If if Kyle can come around to reformed theology, I can probably come around >> What's the fossil record on that again? >> The fossil record. >> everything in the fossil record? We we know of all things? You know what I've heard? >> [sighs] >> Here's something on the fossil record. Uh have you ever seen like a fossilized like chicken or something like that? Well whenever uh a lot of the people will will say like the bones of these dragons may have been brittle, kind of like why you don't feed your dog chicken bones, but you can feed them a ham bone or something like that. It's because they wouldn't have been able to like withstand and so some of the like the crushing or the younger dry sink theory or whatever your thing is that happened the flood, whatever that destroyed everything, it would have destroyed all the bones of the the brittle boned dragons or something like that. But back on the fire the fire and >> Yeah, wings. Wings. >> Great word. Um the >> the fire and uh the wings thing. So, I don't have a good explanation for how you can have all these disparate cultures that all have the same descriptions of the same features of the same animal and it's a winged reptile that's flying around and shooting fire out of its face. How do we have that? Cuz then other people would say, "Hey, also, how do you have all these disparate cultures around the globe that have these pyramidic Is that a thing? Pyramids that they built these structures that all have these pyramids that are built in very specific ways that are pointing towards the poles and, you know, doing all these other different things. How do we do that?" And then we just have this tacit assumption that us in modernity, we are the smartest, we are the ones that figured out, you know, propulsion, we are the ones that got around the planet and all that. We have no idea how many times the reset button has been hit on humanity. We don't. Cuz the Bible tells us the most important things, but doesn't tell us everything. It's not a taxonomy textbook. It's not exhaustive history of the universe, all those types of things. And so, we could have had high technology at one point. Someone pointed this out there like, "If you if you drove your, you know, if you put your CD player, since we talked about CDs a bunch on the last or earlier on this one, if you put that in the middle of a field, like and you let a thousand years go by, like there's no part of that thing that's left. Like it has been completely subsumed and consumed by the earth." And so, there could be technology that points to the fact that people that we just saw as cavemen, that they were actually like traveling around the earth in some way taking their ideas of, you know, how to build and what to point our structures to and all that. I don't know where I land on all that stuff, but it's at least an an interesting theory. But that does dovetail into the dragon thing where I'm just like, "Okay, how can you have in a, you know, an Egyptian depiction, but also a carved, you know, painting in South America all be basically showing this winged, you know, serpent shooting fire. >> So, we just covered we just covered like basically UFOs, Atlantis, technology that came before. So, how do you Okay, so how do you go to geology? They have genealogies in the Bible. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Right? [clears throat] So, how do you explain that you go from Adam through the genealogies to the flood, picks up right after the flood, and then goes all the way to Christ? So, where do you make room for these unknown societies that have crazy advanced technology? >> Well, first of all, when you go into the early parts of Genesis, we have no idea how long a time period cuz if you go back to the kings list when people talk about the kings list back Egyptian times and all that, they were referring to kings that ruled for thousands of years. Thousands of years. And so, how long were people living? We we see the biblical accounts about, you know, people that were living a whole lot longer. We don't know the difference in time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. >> Yeah. >> Like people >> God >> Well, here's the other thing. Here's a question for you. Uh who were Adam and Eve's first two children? >> Cain and Abel. >> How do we know that? >> The Bible. >> We don't. They're not the first >> had two sons. >> It just says they had two sons. >> Uh they could have had daughters. >> Two of a hundred. >> Yeah. Could they have a hundred sons, a thousand sons, a million sons? We assume they're the first two cuz they're the they're first two referred to. >> look back at Noah and you like you think about [clears throat] Noah building the ark, we always think of like three sons and their wives. But Noah was like what? 600, 700 years old when he when he was building the ark. You think his kids were just like celibate or didn't have any kids? Like Noah had an army of people out there working on it. Some people. >> That's part of the thing whenever you look at these genealogies, you look at all these things. It's like and I hate making arguments from omission, like if it if it doesn't say that, but it's that the Cain and Abel thing is right there because I would have answered the exact same way until someone pointed out this year. It's like, "Wait, wait, wait. You're assuming those are the first two children and the only two children." And then, "Oh, all right. We messed up with Abel. All right, you know, we couldn't keep him alive, so let's keep going and let's kind of expand this out." >> Well, then they had Seth. >> What's that? >> Then they had Seth. >> Right. The whole point that I'm saying is like how in the how in the world can we just say, "Oh, those were the only two." Then Seth came along and then then then then. It's like we're we're we're reading a lot of things into the text that actually aren't there. >> Mhm. Yeah, I don't know. It's hard. It took It took me a long time to become a Christian from the perspective of like you know, I I came from energy sector stuff, so we spent a lot of time scientifically trying to figure out exactly how we can drill 10 15,000 ft deep at really high temperatures with all these forces and blah blah blah. And then you start to bring in the mystical elements of Christianity and it's difficult right? And so as you know, now I definitely believe everything that this Bible says because of all of the evidence that supports that and personal experience. But it's really a difficult leap to go back in and start talking about all these societies that would have advanced technology that we don't understand or dragons that have never been in the fossil record and so forth. Like That's a big leap for me until you can see some form of evidence. For what it's worth. >> Did you be become a believer as a adult? >> Yeah, so I went back and looked at a a gift I was given and I got baptized in 2020. >> Oh, wow. >> And so I was baptized then and gave my life to Christ probably like within 12 to 15 months before that. >> Oh, wow. >> Took me a while to get baptized. Yeah. It's interesting though cuz I always felt like I until I got that done, it was a it was very present that it needed to happen. But yeah, I was older. >> Why did it take you so long to get baptized? >> Um >> Cuz I I run into a lot of people that are believers and that you just never think to ask them, "So, have you been baptized?" Because there's Sorry to all you Church of Christers out there. No, the the the the water does not save you. There's nothing salvific about the water. That's city water in that pool, okay? Uh but at the same time it's like but if you are not baptized, you are living in disobedience cuz it's the first thing you're asked to do is to publicly declare your faith in Christ by a full immersion baptism. Baptizo, I think is the word that means full immersion and all that, but I do run into quite a few Christians that just haven't been baptized. It's almost like it's been an an afterthought. >> Yeah, so we were going to a a different church before um when I gave my life to Christ. And we had been a part of a small group. The people in the small group were also tied into the pastors and the kind of the um the people that worked at the church. And so they knew about my situation that I had I had given my life to Christ and all that. And I was approached by one of them about making this huge deal out of it for a video and all sorts of things that they wanted to do. Super uncomfortable with that entire scenario. And then shortly after that, I was at an event where I met um a guy for the first time who goes to our church. He was really big and kind of my initial Christian walk. I would say that him and his wife and their family were such an amazing picture of what it meant to be a Christian family and actually live that. It was just you could just It was palpable. And through walking with him uh within like a few months of coming to this church, it became clear. And you know, we just scheduled it. Um and there's also this this component too where uh there's a small part of it where getting baptized in front of a huge community of people that you may know professionally and all this sort of thing. There's a component to that. >> Yeah. >> You know, so >> It's a great story about how you got grafted in. >> That's right. Nice. >> [laughter] >> Bringing us back to the text. Doing your best over there. Uh well, let's let's actually expand out this discussion here from uh 22 through 24. Uh Caleb, if you read 22 through 24, just one one real quick thing. Just as a commercial to what we were just talking about, um if you are in Christ and you have not been baptized, please just go get baptized. Uh does it have to be where the the church does a video and does a thing and it's like this whole big deal? No, not necessarily. I've talked about before how I plan to uh hopefully baptize my two sons and how that's going to go down. But like it doesn't have to be any particular place. I've literally had had buddies where where we've baptized people in a church and in a baptismal in the ocean, in an oversized like cooler, right? That they they literally have for that purpose to fill up. >> Sorry. >> How did your head not explode? >> I was trying not to sneeze really loud. >> I'd never be able to hear again. >> Is that how you That's how [laughter] you normally sneeze, is it? Oh, it's not. I was just didn't want to do it loud while you were talking cuz last time you threw my iPad down. >> [laughter] >> Well, that's because you you didn't let it build. >> Let it Let it rip, Caleb. >> You were building up and I didn't I was trying to keep it building. >> I'm concerned about your health. Like you could have something like that in you could blow a gasket. >> an iPad out, [laughter] man. >> Let it rip. >> Feel like that guy. Good fellas. For sure. >> Was it good fellas or Casino? I think it was Casino. It was Casino. >> God, look at the references in [laughter] this one. Anyway, the point being, if you haven't been baptized, it doesn't matter where you're at. Uh, big cooler, ocean, a pond, you know, check for gators. If you're going down, Phil Robertson would take people down to the water. He's like, "We haven't had anybody get bit by a gator or cottonmouth yet." And so they would just keep going down there and do it. Just by all means get get baptized. >> church of Christ, so if they did, at least he got them dunked real quick. >> He had [laughter] Yeah, he He wasted no time. They accept us like, "Let's go to the water." And then he give them that thumbs up and then uh head on out. But yeah, Caleb has hit the next three verses, going through verse 24. >> Got it. Note then the kindness and the severity of God. Severity towards those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off. And And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in. For God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree? >> I got mildly distracted and uh when you said you put a lot of emphasis on the beginning of cultivated, and then I heard uh into a cult. And then I was like, wait wait, [laughter] what did I miss that word? And this is like, hey, maybe we should go back to our roots uh the roots there. Uh one thing that I think that's really important about this section um we'll we'll get to 23 and 24, but I'm I'm really struck personally by the severity of God, right? Like that I feel like that kind of hit me like when it talk I mean it and it emphasizes that twice. Severity of God, severity towards those who have fallen. Um I think of course people don't have a healthy fear or reverence of God. We see that inside and outside of people that are in Christ and uh those that are in Adam still. But man, the severity of God. I I I want people that um especially in I annihilationists who think that hell will eventually be annihilated uh to universalists I think, you know, everybody's going to be saved regardless of of what they do and how they live. Um why would he make such uh specific mention to the severity of God if it if it had no no attachment to reality? If it was only going to be severe for a time. >> Cuz God hates sin. >> Yeah. >> And he has a severity towards sin. And he is a holy and just and loving God, and he can't have sin around him. He has to get rid of sin. And that's his severity. He wants to go against sin. I mean, I don't know any way around that so. >> And just think about think about how we as finite humans think about the word severe. Like, oh, they got a severe punishment. Like, you would assume it wasn't a slap on the wrist. Like, you would assume it was something more substantial. Because then you have people that will make the argument that you know, hell isn't even fully described in the Bible. Oh, there's these vague references to Sheol and how Sheol was constantly on fire and that's where they're getting all these different things, but it's just like you know, unending anguish and torment is is basically how it is described and that's, you know, also being removed from the presence of of God. And like that's what could be more severe. >> And I think we always try to because of our human nature try to like try to like make the severity of God more palatable. I think it was Who's the guy that does the Bible Project? >> Tim. >> Yeah. >> Tim Tim Mackie. >> Yes. >> Tim Mackie was like, "Well, I believe that there's a hell, but hell's where God hell's where God lets you go and your own dignity and not believe in him." And and it's just like I'm like, "Come on." Like we're talking about we're talking about a God. Like we we are a mere pots. All right? Like we are mere creations. Like it's not like he's like, "Well, okay. I'm just going to, you know, you're you're just going to live in this modernity or eternity of just like, you know, I'm going to let you be who you want to be in your dignity." You know, it's like there's no severity in >> That's technically earth. It's like if you want to live without God, then do your own thing. Like you're just going to die. >> And and life goes on. It's like I mean, and it's >> like just total blackness. You know, it's like everything ends. And so, I mean, like you brought up the annihilationist point of view where I had some struggle with that because it's like when you read in Revelation >> One. >> he talks about throwing in the devil and all of his minions into a fiery pit for eternity. And so, I I can see where annihilationists kind of like think that that could happen. I I don't know a lot about eschatology, which I should probably talk to our pastor more on that. >> I think it's that >> fire pit is on that. But like I could kind of see I was like, "I kind of get that reference." Especially when we were talking about Kirk Cameron. You know my love for Kirk Cameron in in Fireproof. So, you know, I was like I was a little I was a little disheartened when that stuff came out. And I was like, "I could kind of see where he comes from." But no, I mean, we can't dumb down the severity of God. We can't we can't make it more palatable than what it really is because he already gave us true love because we already deserve death. Like he could have just wiped Adam and Eve out like that. And just went back to doing what he wants to do. But no, he he said, "Hey, you guys are going to die, but I'm going to save you in the end. So you will walk with me once more." >> So So as an example, just to put this in perspective, talk about the severity of God, just this little entrance, I'm going to read one little section. This is from Deuteronomy, I was talking about earlier. And this is curses for disobedience. And he says, "But if you will not >> reference so people are following along. >> Deuteronomy chapter 28, starting verse 15, then I'm going to skip over to a section. The setup is Um he's talking about going into the promised land, and if you don't follow everything that I've laid out for you, then this is what's going to happen. But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God, or be careful to do all of his commandments and his statutes >> [clears throat] >> that I commanded you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. I'm going to skip over to verse 27 and just read this. The Lord will strike you with boils of Egypt and with tumors and scabs and itch, of which you cannot be healed. The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of mind, and you shall grope at noonday as the blind grope in darkness. You shall not prosper in your ways, and you shall be only oppressed and robbed continually. There shall be no one to help you. You shall be betrothed to a wife, but another man shall ravish her. You shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it. You shall plant a vineyard, but you shall not enjoy its fruit And it goes on and on and on. This is the This is the same God that we're talking about in the New Testament. So the holiness and the fear of God has got to be present, and I think that's that that that you know, reverence that we should be approaching uh the severity and the kindness from. >> That I don't know why, but this this word severity just strikes me like we're all reading from the ESV, pretty sure. As one [clears throat] that might be different in different uh translations. I didn't I didn't bring my Logos. I don't know if you guys had like the the Greek [clears throat] on it or just what what it's like in different translations. And I don't mean to derail on that, but I was just curious. It just kind of seems like one of those words that >> What was the word again? >> could be differently could be used differently. Severity. >> Severity. >> Yeah. You were going to say [clears throat] something too. >> Um You know how we were talking about prayer? >> Yeah. >> Like uh I just I got a text. I don't know if you saw it. >> I did. >> I think we should pray. Uh without saying the name, uh >> Yeah. >> bring everybody up to speed and let's do it. >> Yeah. Let's do it. >> So uh we've got a we've got a fellow Forging Table-er on here. His uh brother uh just had his first son and his wife's being taken into emergency surgery right now. They go to They go to our church. And um they have a very like full family of girls and this is their first son and uh this guy's very close to our our group and so I was just like getting this kind of just bring a tear to my eye. Just want to kind of pray for that family. >> Do you want to pray or do you want one of us >> Uh why don't you guys start real quick and I I can I can end it. >> Yeah, I'll I'll start us and then then you can get into that as well. Um Heavenly [clears throat] Father, we just lift up this family. Lord, I just pray that we we lift up mom and dad. Um and we lift up the little boy and uh we know that there's an emergency that's happening right now, a medical emergency like as we are recording this. Lord, I just pray that your will would be done. I just pray that you would guide the hands and the brains of all the doctors, the surgeons, the nurses, all the different techs that are keeping all the machines running. Lord, I just pray for the electricity in the hospital. >> Well, I pray for everything that would that would go off without a hitch. And Lord, I just pray that even in this emergency situation that your Lord that you and your will would be done. And Lord, just uh that you would bring comfort that surpasses all understanding to those that care for this family and that are scared in this moment. And Lord, we just we we thank you. We love you and we trust you. It's in Jesus' name we pray. >> Dear Lord, we just come to you right now. We just ask that the the power of your hand be over this mother and father right now, Lord. Well, we pray for the mother as she goes into emergency surgery, Lord. We just ask that the doctor's hands move to the way that they need to move to heal that the way that they need to heal, Lord. We pray for the child. We pray for the children as well as their mother is going through this. Give them peace. Give them hope in you, Lord. Let them feel your grace and feel your love. We pray the same for her husband and the rest of her family, Lord. Just bring a sense of peace and let them know that you're going to help them through this. You're going to be with them through every step of the way, through the valleys and through the deaths, Lord. We just pray for healing. We pray for comfort. We just pray for the hands that are that are going in to to heal, Lord, and just ask that you be with them and watch over, protect, and keep them. In your name we pray. Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> We will always do that for that if something like that happens. You know, again, we we talk all time about on the show we're we're not performing for you guys as much as we're just doing this with lights and cameras and all that stuff on. And so, if you all are in a Sunday school group or if you're in a men's Bible study or something like that and you all kind of get that same desperate text from somebody that's not there with you. You know, just that's in a situation like that there's not anything else that you can do. We got another text like that last night. From another Forging Table or had a good buddy of his that, you know, young, healthy, all of a sudden finds himself in ICU with maybe days to live. And not quite sure whether or not that person is saved. And so, he's like, "I'm on my way to the hospital right now to to share Christ with him and comfort the family and just pray." It's like you need you need guys like that in your life that you can send that message to. Gosh, even last week had a guy he even said he's like, "Ah, this might be a little bit weird, but if you guys wouldn't mind praying for me cuz he had a temperature near like 104. As an adult, like that's a really really high kind of dangerous temperature and no immediate answers as to what what was going on. And so, uh that's that's something in these types of situations. It's one thing, you know, kick it and have a good time and you know, read through the Bible and learn some stuff and you know, poke fun and do all that kind of stuff, but this is that this is that real life thing. So, I appreciate you you bring that up and bring that to everyone's attention cuz we got to be cognizant of that. >> Can I just ask this cuz we we've talked a little bit about prayer. What what is it about prayer that you think people struggle with when you say, "Man, I just don't pray enough." Is it is it the time that it takes? Is it is it not necessarily believing is the wrong word, >> but God says prayer >> Like you know what I'm saying? Like >> Yeah, it's like, "Hey, why am I even doing this? God's going to do what he's going to do anyway. So, why am I praying?" >> I struggle with the words. Like the words when you're praying. Like I have so many things going through my head. It's like, "What are the right words?" And that's that's something I struggle with when I pray. But like when I pray, you know, it's like God's will is going to be done however God wants to do his will. We'll get to that in the end of chapter 11. But it's just like I can call upon God just to just to be there to comfort, to do his will and I mean, I can pray for what my heart's desires are, but if my heart's desires are not with God's will, then it's not with God's will. >> It's almost like do you frame it right? I mean, is it is it taking things to God like you're requesting something or is it you're receiving God's presence? You know, you make a request known, but but this anxiousness kind of goes away. The peace that surpasses all understanding comes back to you. I mean, I guess I just look at things like I've been to Church of 1122 and and seen like amazing prayer and heard amazing stories of prayer being answered. You know, if you believe that that is one of the tools that we've been equipped with. I mean, have you looked back through your life and seen it really be effective? Is that even the right way to think about it? I just I think it's really an interesting >> I think I've looked back in my life kind of growing up the way that I did grow up. A lot of prayer was for prosperity. >> Right. >> Um for things. My prayer life isn't really about that. You know, I'll pray for for something like this. You know, like that's me really asking. Like I'm not praying for a parking spot. >> Yeah. >> You know, I might be thankful for a parking spot. You know, but really >> a fine thing to say thank you. Yeah. My hip hurts. I'd like to have a shorter >> Yeah. You know, but I mean I just think like when my prayer comes like when I pray, I want to I want to appreciate God for who he is. I want to appreciate God um for what he's done for me and how I've grown not in prosperity or certain ways. It's just like it's like I just want to magnify God in my prayer because I feel like back in when I was younger, I was magnifying myself in my prayer. It's like it's like you want to go back to you know, if you think about that charismatic movement, um what's her name with the Bethel Church, Jen Johnson's like, I like to think of God as like, you know, a genie from Aladdin. And that's how I felt like my prayers are. You know, it's like it seems off. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Slightly. >> Yeah. >> Well, I think this [laughter] is actually helpful. That's all I want to read this because I put into the the study assistant what are the different kinds of prayer because I know there are different like categories and all that. Um and so this is where referencing um This is a cobbled together answer from some stuff from Hal Green, Lucas uh Paulus, and Got Questions Ministries, but I'll I think this is great. One approach identifies 10 10 categories of prayer. Adoration and worship, thanksgiving and praise, lament and complaint, confession and forgiveness, intercession for others, prayers prayers for healing and well-being, requests for guidance and wisdom, petitions for protection and safety, prayers seeking comfort and assurance, and prayers expressing naked desire before God's presence. In actual practice, these forms interweave seamlessly. A single prayer period might combine all 10 just as the Psalms show a psalmist transitioning rapidly from Thanksgiving, lament, intercession, and praise. Alternatively, the main biblical types include prayers of faith, which is like requesting healing, agreement or corporate prayer, which is praying with others, request or supplication, which is bringing your needs to God, Thanksgiving, which is expressing gratitude, worship, which is focusing on God's character, consecration, which is dedicating oneself to God's will, intercession, which is praying for others, and imprecation, which is invoking God's judgment on the wicked. While worship and Thanksgiving overlap, they differ in focus. Worship centers on who God is, whereas Thanksgiving emphasizes emphasizes what God has done. Prayer can be expressed through words, thoughts, and actions. It may be memorized or spontaneous. It can encompass a wide range of emotions including joy, fear, anger, sadness, and anxiety. Some prayer types function as soliloquies where you speak to God without expecting direct response, while others seek God's presence and dialogue, direct connection with God. The underlying principle is that prayer is conversation with God and should continue without ceasing. Mhm. Feel like that's helpful cuz it kind of gives you Some people really lean on a certain kind of prayer. Like I would say most of my prayers are um uh prayers of just basically thankfulness, you know, expressing Thanksgiving, gratitude for opportunities or or cool things that happen or for health or all that. And then, you know, some people will feel they will feel bad cuz they're like, "Oh, I haven't prayed in a while, but now I'm asking like for prayer for somebody else, a prayer of intercession, or you know, I want, you know, I want to ask God to help me cuz I need something or something like that." And so, it's like, you know, you only talk to that person when you need a favor. It's like you kind of feel that way about God, and so people just end up not praying at all. It's like, "Look, there's a lot of a lot of ways to commune with the almighty. That's just one of them." >> Yeah. >> like you asked why why people struggle with it so [clears throat] much, right? I mean, I think I think part of it is like we feel like we have to be talking the whole time. You know, I mean, like you got to have all the right words, and it's got to be this long, and you got to use this flowery language and so on and so forth, right? And and I mean we were just talking about this when you had the um uh your Dominion guys in town just about like actually listening and just slowing down enough, which I think is real it's it's tough. I kind of think of it like you know if you watch a movie from like 40 years ago, the amount of dead air is is remarkable. Yeah. I mean it's totally different. You know from now like >> Like that type of dead air? >> [laughter] >> Yes. Even longer. >> Shame on you. Shame on you. But continue your point. Yep. >> But like now if you watch any kind of show it's just boom boom boom boom. The the dialogue is like you know so fast. Um and I think it's just it it's just so hard for us to just slow down and actually respond to God with whether it's things that we read or um things that might be going on. But I think I mean part of it too is just like you don't have a plan. Like you don't like train yourself in that way. You know that it's just talking and and maybe a little bit of listening but there's not an actual like organized way of going about it, which I found super helpful. >> to be more to it than this, right? Like we got to do something. >> It's like anything like that you're going to spend your time doing. Like if you actually plan it out, you know, and and do it that way, it's going to it's probably going to go better. >> Well, I don't know if I mentioned it this week or last week but I when I mentioned wait here by uh uh Robbie Gallaty you know, he was talking about how he he had one particular and he's very type A driven like box checker that type of thing. Like he went to uh he did his back porch time and did his his prayer time whatever and I think he said he was out there for an hour or two, something like that. And he he felt like he didn't hear anything. Like God didn't speak to him or or do all that. And he kind of had a whatever category of prayer would be where he was like prayer of prayer of angry. Like God, what was I doing out there? Like I could have done something productive over that last like hour or two. Like I got nothing out of that. It's like no. And then he felt like God speak to him in that moment said, "No, no, no. You had me >> Right. >> in that time, right?" And so we look at this time where it's like, "Oh, we're going to everything's going to chill out. You'll you'll you know, you'll get in this zone and then all of a sudden you'll get this like clear word as the parts uh you know, the clouds part or whatever and all that." It's like that may that may happen for you. But for a lot of people it's like some of it's just pausing and being in the presence of the of the Lord. And like that in and of itself is an act of worship. It's an act of like self-sacrifice. Like your desires like your wants and those uh those things as well. And Zach as we will put a bow on this one before we get into uh next week which will be in Romans 11:25. I think part of the reason why so many men struggle with it is cuz they don't see immediate results and we live in an immediacy culture where it's like, "No, I hit the button on my phone and the food arrives. No, like I I click the button on my television and the next episode begins." And so it's like, "Whoa, wait. You just want me to You just want me to be quiet? You just want me to sit there in quiet?" >> Right. >> Or if they didn't grow up and see very good examples of men praying >> Mhm. >> over meals, out loud, at church or something like that. Now all of a sudden they're like, "Well, I want to take seriously being the spiritual, you know, thermostat. I'm not going to be a thermometer anymore." It's like, "Well, let us pray." And then it's like, "Oh, crap. What do I say?" >> Yeah. >> Like they don't know how to do it. Like they they haven't memorized any prayers. Like and so the spontaneous thing maybe they're just not really wired that way to where they have verbal intelligence where they can just kind of weave their way through this prayer or whatever. But even when we get back to other places that we've covered even here at this table where it's like your prayer is coming from a groaning deep inside of you where it's like, you know, it's it's not even words. It's just and I think all of us have been there at one point or another in our lives where it's just you you're just saying the thing that's there, right? You're you're not performing for anybody. That's like when I get asked to pray out loud in front of large groups or something like that. I make it about as quick and to the point as I can possibly do. It's like this is not sermon part 1B, right? Like where I just I'm going to get in all the stuff I didn't get in on the last one. But for a lot of guys, I think they're just they're afraid of doing it wrong or doing it badly and so they're just not going to do it at all. We live very much so in I'm going to take my ball and go home kind of a thing. If I'm going to suck at this game, I'm just not going to play culture. And so I think some guys get that as well. They they want to crush it in all these areas and this is just an area >> I just think it's it's interesting, right? Like you read Nehemiah. We that was one of the very first books we did together and right before he went to talk to the king, he literally like shot a text message almost. Please be with me kind of a thing. That's not eloquent, right? >> [snorts] >> There's Joey talking about praying for his dad for 30 years. I've got I've got people on my list that I've been praying for for at least six years now, right? And that's just continuing for different things. Maybe it's salvation, maybe it's some situation that they're dealing with and it's just takes seems like it can take forever. You know, one thing that popped into mind as you were with me when we lost somebody. When we were in a chapel and some of the you know, biggest Christian folks that we know were all in that chapel praying for this individual to make it and this individual did not make it, you know? So I think it's such a big um topic, but you know, for me I I think God ultimately says that that's the way that we commune with him and that we should be doing this and I think what I found the more that I read cuz I try to read the Bible and then pray over what I've read. Probably the biggest thing is just having things that God's highlighting in that time is probably been the most impactful. And then when prayer is answered, just like it says when God gives you something, it's good and it comes with no sorrow. And it just kind of keeps you going, you [clears throat] know, what once it's been answered, but it seems like God moves very slow in a lot of cases for what it's worth. >> And answers aren't always yes. So when someone's like, "I got an answer to prayer." I'm like, "What was the answer?" >> Yeah. >> And they're like, "Well, he said yes." I was like, "Well, I you know." [laughter] So just trying to give you a different category for >> It's either yes, no, or wait, you know? And that's the thing like I think that's one thing I'm I'm to do as a father is I'm not good at prayer. And this is because of the way I grew up. Like like I said, my prayer wasn't my prayer wasn't about God. It wasn't about It was more about >> to interrupt you though because >> All right. I keep >> Well, no, no. The thing is is like I to everyone on the internet loves to talk about aspirational identities is like, "Oh, I'm going to believe it. Then I'm going to achieve it." All that kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> Even just saying I'm not good at prayer is like even like a low-key agreement because guess what? I wasn't going to stop this episode cuz I I I was searching something else when I we got that message from someone else on our table. So, you want to talk about good at prayer? You stopped the recording so that we could pray for somebody. So, so let's just be careful with how you describe it. >> I'm just saying like I'm getting [clears throat] better at it. It's not It's not my go-to thing. You know, like I'm really good at like scripture. I'm really good at like, you know, going like someone needs something. I'm like, "Hey, go read like I had a family member was going through a tough time." I was like, "Go read Nehemiah." And I go over things with about Nehemiah to help them. So, I have I The way that I grew up was prayer was a different thing, you know? And I didn't teach my kids like I It's something that I've I've I'm really trying to work on. It's something that I don't feel like I'm very good at even though you pointed out the fact that, "Hey, I stopped this for prayer." I believe in the power of prayer. Um I just want to be able to I I believe in the power of prayer. I love the power of prayer. I just want to be able to do it and show my kids the correct way of doing it because I don't feel like I grew up with the correct way of prayer. >> Man, for what it's worth, Kyle prayed and I know this individual and love him dearly and it was a great prayer. I couldn't think of very much that I would add and then you prayed right after Kyle and added so much more to that. So, I thought it was amazing and I was thankful that we said amen after that cuz >> When you think about this way, too, there is I'm reminded of an interaction between couple of guys that I can, you know, call buddies but Josh Howerton and Philip Anthony Mitchell when Philip Anthony Mitchell was basically lamenting that he wasn't a very polished preacher. >> Yeah. >> And like Josh Howerton goes >> Yeah. >> Bro. >> Bro. >> Please don't become polished. That would be such a disaster. Please don't do that. >> That's right. >> And then whenever I talked to Philip Anthony Mitchell on my show, which that you know, that episode's out now that you guys can go back and and watch that. You know, I referred back to that time and just said like when you see, I forget the exact example, but like when you see a lion take down a a zebra or a gazelle, is one of the words you think of polish? >> Right. >> Yeah. >> No, you think of ferocity. It's like if we lost your ferocity so that we could get your polished, then we all lose. You know what I mean? And so in this type of situation, it's like you don't need to be the most eloquent prayer in the world. You don't need to have like all these great cuz there are people that are very very good at prayer that don't even believe in God. >> That's right. >> That's the hard part that I and I think I just like connected it cuz my sister and I were talking about this. We kind of grew up that if your prayers weren't answered, your faith wasn't strong enough. You didn't have >> That's dangerous I think. >> And when like you were talking about you guys were praying for the the gentleman who was in the hospital and it wasn't the end result. You know, like that I think that turned me like when I would pray and it wasn't the end result. Man, I'm not good at prayer. I'm not good at prayer. And then when you grow up feeling that way for so long, you know, it's just like hey, does prayer even really work because >> being good at it is just being obedient doing it. That's it. >> That's it. >> I know I know we're trying to shut it down, but just to that point, you know, as I think about that experience, what I look back on and see is in that situation, we had a whole group of people that had given their life to Christ. And then there was family that was there that had not. And I think that it was one of the most interesting things for me to see how this community handled that situation versus the other one. >> Yeah. >> So maybe in that sense, prayer is is literally God being with you. >> Absolutely. >> And walking through it. >> Maybe this is my own sorry, last quick thing. My uh uh um a story that stands out just about prayer and I think maybe something that we could all do for our kids is like I feel something about spontaneous prayer like what we just did is so meaningful. I mean I was I was in a car I remember exactly where I was in in Aggieville in Manhattan, Kansas with my brother-in-law who were just driving through Aggieville and he just starts praying for everybody that's you know getting wasted, right? He starts praying for them. We're just driving through. But I was like that's so cool. Like that's something we can all do for our kids is just spontaneous prayer when we see things. You're driving by a car accident. Like you just go. >> Yeah. >> I mean I I I just think it stands out to me. It means a lot. >> So if you want to be you want to you mentioned teaching your kids how to pray the right way. A lot of debate can be pulled out about what exactly the right way is. But yeah, when we drive by an accident like oh boys, I think someone might be hurt. Like let's let's pray for them and let's pray for the the first responders real quick. And I have one of the boys pray or I will pray. >> Mhm. That's awesome. >> pray before we we go to bed. We pray over meals. They they see me ask the the servers is there anything uh I mean how can I be praying for you? Like >> You drive by the homeless people, you know, sitting on the side of the road. >> breathe. You know what I mean? So you're marinating them in in the gospel, right? And you're cuz in which is weird cuz I didn't grow up prayer was not a factor in our in our household at all. Like it wasn't discussed, never saw it modeled until I started going to a church when I was like a teenager and you you know, I was like oh everyone's eyes are closed. Okay sure. Eyes closed. Oh head down? Head down? All right, got it. Um and so like you know, there's all these different postures and all everyone's got their own rules and things that make them comfortable but ultimately it's that are you in So when people talk about pray without ceasing they're like wait, do I just need to quit my job so I can just sit in prayer all day long? It's like no, no, you're just you're in a a constant state of in all these different categories I read earlier of prayer where it's like man, thank you so much for this opportunity. Oh man, that person looks like they need some help. You know, what do you want me to do? Those kinds of things. So guys, we'll pick it back up here next week where we're going to be getting into Romans 11 verse 25. But before I let you go, we are going to do a quick Resilient Boost. Our Adult Life Missions is men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Don't forget about the Logos Undaunted Life Study Bundle, guys. You got to use that software. It's absolutely spectacular. Forging Table Starter Set through Crossway, and we are a donation-based ministry. So, if you want to see us continue things like the Forging Table, hop on board, be a monthly or one-time donor undaunted.life/donate. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook, and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaits. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. >> Void Awaits. >> [music]