THE FORGING TABLE | Romans 11:11-16 (Ep. 992)

Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape, they wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones, they wish they had more success and influence at work, and some other stuff like that. But, here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well, guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient, and now is your chance to prove that you mean it. That's why I want you to take advantage of our partnership with the most powerful Bible software on planet Earth, Logos. So, Logos approached me about putting something together for the Undaunted Lifers out there, and we collaborated to create something I'm super pumped about. The Undaunted Life Study Bundle. So, here's the skinny on the bundle. There are over 200 individual resources, and they include titles from authors like Voddie Bauckham, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Matt Chandler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, William Lane Craig, Paul Washer, John Stott, Doug Wilson, Paul David Tripp, J.I. Packer, and a whole bunch more. And there are so many helpful resources in there. There's Bibles, commentaries, Old and New Testament study guides, devotionals, systematic theologies, courses dictionaries histories encyclopedias, non-fiction books, and more, and more, and more. And here's the most insane part about this deal. If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But, if you get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle, you'll get all 200-plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks. Guys, that's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time, and these won't help you with your discipleship and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com /undontedlife. That's www.logos.com/undontedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/undontedlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life Study Bundle right now. Hey guys, real quick, I just wanted to remind you that we have an official Undaunted Life store. You can go to shop.undaunted.life or check it out in the show notes. Guys, we're always going to have hats and shirts and a bunch of other awesome stuff. Go there, support us, wear the mission. Again, it's shop.undaunted.life. Check out the link in the show notes. shop.undaunted.life. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. We'll go back to the forging table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's the horn who is the absolute most talented individual ever at turning over this hourglass. I mean, you are absolutely murdering it right now. We got Caleb, and as I live and breathe, is that Zach Todd to my right? >> When's the last time we saw him? >> I don't know. 9 months ago, probably. >> we were all like reading scripture in Hebrew >> I saw him in the It was pre-mustache, that's for sure. >> Pre Yeah, well, >> [laughter] >> you know, that's [clears throat] where that's the hinge point for a lot of people's lives is like pre-mustache or post-mustache. I mean, what do you think? Do we If we had to vote between beard mustache, do we have a vote? My wife's like she kind of likes mustache thing because she's like, "I can see your face now." She's like, "I'll You'll smirk." And it's like I You would like hide it behind your beard. I'm like, "That's possible." But she just kind of like >> thing I mean about the mustache is like I can see your face. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> Agreed. >> I'm a fan. >> I vote for that for that reason. >> But yeah. >> If we had to vote >> I vote beard. >> You vote going back to going back to beard? >> Probably just jealous. >> Dude, I can't even grow facial hair, so I have no say. >> Well, you can have say cuz it's someone else's face. >> I could grow if I could grow facial hair, I'd grow a beard. >> We all know that. >> long reformed beard. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> But like the for me, I'm either like going with like biker slash you know western mustache. I got the cowboy hat on and it like puts the whole uh >> I don't know. I don't I don't feel like Yeah, I feel I feel a little uh uh what's his name? Uh Doc Holliday. With that mustache. Maybe you do a little patch right here. >> I mean >> Or you could just commit to it more and just you know, bring it down a little bit. >> Okay. So, I had it like that. >> I've seen it. >> I've had it like that before. The Fu Manchu. But like there's no hiding that thing. Like [laughter] there's no blending in. There's no I need to get out of here and nobody give me any attention. Like it's already kind of bad depending upon the room. But yeah, you know, you got this kind of got the little western thing going on. So, I feel like I could probably uh take care of some cattle. I mean, maybe like your grandpa who is the real cattleman uh out of the group. >> Is it all backwards? >> No, it's not all backwards. >> Okay. Okay [snorts] here. >> Sure. >> Ribbon goes in the back. >> Okay. All right. >> Goes in the back. I made that mistake once. >> [laughter] >> The in real life cowboy just kind of came up to me and he's like cuz it's great. It's so good. His name's [clears throat] Chad. He looks like Yosemite Sam. And like uh he's in town for a Dominion meetup. And we'd just done jiu-jitsu that morning. And he is the nicest guy. He's like a cowboy preacher. He just comes up to me. And like so I have my cowboy hat sitting down cuz I was like I didn't want him to be the only one wearing a cowboy hat. And so when the whole crew comes uh bee-bopping up to the porch I was on, I just grabbed my hat and throw it on. And I 100% just threw it on backwards, right? Like I knew better cuz, you know, I was taught by Kyle Lucas who gave me this hat that the ribbon, you know, goes in the back. It's all good to go. And he just kind of came up to me and goes, "Hey, man, you know, this morning" And when I say you see me Sam, he's got the mustache >> that guy, yeah. Way out here. >> He's like, "Hey, man, you know how this morning I I didn't really know anything that was going on and you you were doing your best to like be nice to me the whole time and, you know, all that and just kind of tell me softly the things I was doing wrong." He's like, "Your hat's on backwards there, partner." I was like, >> [laughter] >> "No!" I was like, "Come on, I should not have had this problem." But, you know, and yet here we are. >> It was even a friendly setup by him. >> It was It was very, very friendly. It was very pastoral. >> [clears throat] >> Uh I do want to point out before we get into Romans 11, we did have a little bit of a charismatic conversation in our group text uh going on uh before long. Yeah, we did. Uh so, do you do you I mean, it's it mainly happened because of you two. I forget who pulled the pin on that grenade. >> said that the last interview that you had I can only make 45 minutes through. >> Well, let's let's not discuss [laughter] the the exact the exact one, but there I did have a guest who was way more charismatic than anyone I'd ever had on the show, perhaps because we talked a whole lot more about it. And so, I was asking you guys about I'm like, "Hey, I kind of got caught flat-footed a few times going through this and that is not a common occurrence. Like I can normally like see my way through situations whether they're awkward or, you know, uh something I wasn't expecting. I just kind of roll with it." But I was like, "Man, I just don't really know uh know how I did on that one." And so, I kind of threw it all out there and then you were peeling back to your cult days and you kind of were feeling uh >> We got to bring that up every time you're on. His essence, your cult-likeness, you never come on anymore and so, we got to like figure all that. It's been a >> I'm here, man. >> It's been so long. >> We can talk about his briskets. >> The last thing that cult has ever been described as is charismatic. >> Uh okay, okay. >> quite the opposite. >> Hey, you've never been in a charismatic church. >> No. >> I [laughter] Well, it can be like that. >> Never. >> But [clears throat] it is good because since we brought up your brisket uh smoking skills so many times on this show that now that you're here to kind of defend yourself. But do you want to go ahead and describe how you make your brisket? Not how to make our brisket. >> He's already done this. >> But I feel like but we get new we get new people every single week that come on this come on the show. So >> I'm a big fan of the hot and fast method. >> [laughter] >> Get her done. You know what I'm saying? >> He likes to make tires. >> [laughter] >> You can outsource it like Howard. You know? >> That's true. >> Just give it to Howard. >> He'll take care of it. >> You know, I smoke a lot of people's briskets and ribs and stuff like that. So >> You never like turn it back on them and just encourage them to like I don't know be a man and do it themselves. >> him I've helped him like look at smokers. He just hasn't bought one yet. Um but I always invite people over. I'm like hey you want to come over and I'll show you how to do this. We can drink whiskey and and smoke cigars and hang out. But uh not nobody really wants to hang out with me for more than like 30 minutes. >> And [laughter] well >> That's the thing. You can hang out with him while he cooks his brisket. >> That's roughly how long it takes him to finish his brisket. >> No it's it's not it but uh but no I mean I I hear you guys on that. I mean I just like to help people out. So and I like to I like to I like to cook. So >> That works out well. >> Well and I remember last time you know I've I'll have people come out to me that will like ask me for game meat or whatever. I'm like well how about we help you you know kill your own deer and don't worry Caleb you are on the radar this year for Adam getting out there and trying to get your first deer. The only thing is is sweet baby James might get there before you do. >> Yeah. >> Sweet baby James. >> Hey I took him shooting the other day. So all right so I sent him a message and so so a couple months ago I get my .308 rifle and I put it on my I put it on a tripod in the living room and there were no no rounds anywhere but I was just showing them you know how the magazine comes out and how it goes in and how to run the bolt and how to look down the scope and how not to put the scope right on your eye hole because it does like shoot itself backwards. And we had like long story short, there was a watermelon at the end of our property and it was like you know, bright red and it's like, "Okay, you know, they were trying to find it in the scope and they were dry firing and all that." Since that time, all James can talk about is shooting the gun for real and to and going deer hunting. But he's he's 6 years old and I didn't grow up hunting, so I'm like, "I don't I don't know how young is too young." And you know, I remember you were talking about with your son, you took him shooting one time and it was like it would just wasn't a great experience like because it was a lot of new things happening at one time and you know, it can be loud, a little bit a little bit scary. And so, but I'm like, "All right, we're just going to kind of see this thing through." And so, we get him home from school on Friday. And I take him over to this indoor range. I would normally take him to an outdoor range, but I wanted to be a little bit more controlled, you know, to where we can see what's happening. And I take him in there and of course the guy shooting next to us is not shooting suppressed. And I mean, when you're in this when we're in this huge area or it's kind of a confined it's big, but it's kind of confined. Yeah, it's enclosed, thank you. And I'm just like, "Oh man, this is going to scare him." And but you know, he kind of the first time the guy shot kind of did one of those, but then I was man, it's all good. Like I I told him about it beforehand. We had ran through the entire process. So, I set up the tripod. And so, you know, I'm taking him through all the safety stuff on the tripod and all that and you know, he just kind of looks up look at me at one time at one time and he just kind of goes, "Hey, Dad, I'm I'm a little I'm a little scared." And I'm like, "Hey man, no big deal. It kind of is what it is like, but look, our rifle is suppressed. It's not going to be that loud. This is going to absorb a lot of this recoil like and you've you've heard as bad as that gun's going to sound next to us. That's as bad as it's ever going to get." And you know, to his credit, I got a I got a deer um like paper, right? And so, it's not just like a normal target. There was an actual deer on it and it had a a red mark for the heart and then a little bit larger got onto the orange and then, you know, yellow would be where the lungs are or whatever. And we're shooting at 50 yards. And I'm just like cuz I'm going to take him out to 100, but it's like let's just shoot at 50 see if we can get on paper, right? So, I made sure the rifle was on and then he gets on there and I mean, he can't shoulder the rifle cuz it's a you know, it's a full-size rifle, and so he's kind of doing this this number, and he was just, you know, quickly grabbing the trigger and like jerking it backwards, and like so the there were a lot of things I could try to correct with him. And then, you know, we get that first group, and I'm bringing the target back on one of those automatic machines, and I'm like, "Oh, just please be on the paper. Just please be on the paper." Like all three were in the heart. >> That's crazy. >> All three were in the heart. I'm like, "Dude." And so I'm like losing it. And like he's just, you know, he thinks this is like, "Oh, this is what you had told me to shoot the heart." And I was like, "That's what I did." And we send it out to 100, and I think one shot, like all the shots would have been a dead deer. One shot would have been a mad deer, uh cuz I think we would have blown off one of its legs. [clears throat] And so, uh that would have been something we would have had to have finished. But, yeah, about 5 minutes after he told me he was scared, he goes, "Hey, I'm I'm not really scared anymore." And so it's like I kind of gave him, you know, confidence and all those types of things. And so he's going to be very likely doing the youth rifle season uh here in a few weeks. And so he might get his first one before you do. If that's okay. >> Sounds good. Of course. >> what Kyle's trying to bring you to is jealousy. >> [laughter] >> Just like God was bringing >> Nice. >> And that's that >> into the >> silky smooth Grassmeyer transition [laughter] from Ryan Horn. Well, Ryan, since you uh since you brought it up, uh how about we talk about that? Uh let's get grafted into the Bible, shall we? Uh let's go ahead and get into Romans 11. Uh Ryan, how about you read 11 and 12? Romans 11, verses 11 and 12. >> So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means. Rather, through their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now, if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean? >> So, um there are a few things that I feel like whenever I'm reading through scripture now, it's just things that I like really start to pay attention to. And so it's like when I see a therefore, obviously every pastor has made the same joke, which is like, "You got to know what the therefore is therefore." And so it's like, you know, you start paying attention to what's after, and then, you know, you kind of go back and make sure you know what as before, but reading through Paul it's like when he says by no means, right? There are not a whole lot of exclamation points in this letter to the Roman church. But it's just the emphasis he puts on that, the emphatic nature of what he's saying um because it's like again, all throughout the letter in Romans you can kind of sense that Paul is anticipating the objection. He's anticipating the objection again, this is meant to be read all at once, right? It was typically read out loud um because it was an illiterate culture. But you you have to think about the waves at this point in the letter that guys have been uh the the listeners have been taken through. And so they might be thinking, wait a minute. So like did did they stumble uh like in order that they they should fall? Like I go like what exactly is going on here? But I just love how he's kind of bringing it all back around to be like, hey look, Israel's blindness is not permanent, it's not irreversible here. Um this wasn't some sort of like cosmic gotcha like switcheroo that went on. Uh but anyway, I just every time you get to a section with the by no means we should really be paying attention because that's where Paul is putting in an emphasis. So let's kick off from there. >> I think it's just funny [clears throat] to look at it as the word stumble. You know, it's like, man, what what happens when we stumble? Like sometimes we fall, sometimes we trip, pick ourselves up before we actually fall. Uh if we do fall, do we fall down and stay down? Are we are we now down on the ground and never to get up? And so uh it just made me think like how many times in my walk have I stumbled? And how many times have I fallen down but if God has gotten me back up? And I think I think that's what Paul's kind of going into is saying, hey, right now Israel's stumbling but they haven't fallen. >> I know it's been a while for you but >> [laughter] >> dead air is like my least favorite thing. Ryan just kicked us off. Caleb Caleb likes to smile, he doesn't like to talk as much but you know, but here he is. And so that that typically means like you got to kind of jump in. It's kind of going to be like the the setup here. In then there's a microphone in front of you. You just just say words into it and then we we should we should be okay. We're going to be here for >> What do you guys think about stumble? >> [laughter] >> Thank you. >> Good question. >> As obvious as possible. >> Only interrogative statements, please. >> Set, go. >> I don't know. I mean, I don't have a ton to say about this section right here. Probably the biggest thing for me is that he's describing how God works and it's it's something that is not intuitive. You know, God's sort of setting up his chosen people and and letting letting you know that they're stumbling, but it's for your good. And really emphasizing that, I think as as I've kind of prepared and read through all of this, that's probably something that's been the most impactful for me is you really can't know the mind of God and the way that he works and it's kind of incredible um you know, how he's working through everybody. >> Isn't it funny? >> That's all I got. >> Isn't it funny to think of how much we try? >> He's done. All right. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> You what? Here before we get off stumble >> Okay. >> quick. So whenever I plugged it in cuz obviously we've been talking a lot about the Logos software, which by the way got a wonderful text this week from a guy that's been Logos for like 30 years. He's like, "Everyone's just talking about it on Don Life at Logos right now because we did like a a big push >> Oh, yeah. >> on the show to like kind of get guys to start using this using the AI function and all the guys here >> [clears throat] >> with us including you three have the the AI functionality now, but when you go in and whenever you click on the word stumble and you go look up it takes you to the original Greek that was written down in. It's basically talking about sin. And so that's kind of the thing that we always forget whenever oh, it's like I'm really struggling right now or oh, I'm stumbling or I'm motor. It's like I think the word you're looking for is sin. Like you're you're sinning like you're not mistaken. Yeah, it's like you're not mistaken. You're not a mistaker that needed a savior. Like you're you're a sinner that needed a savior. There's a big difference between a whoopsies and I did this because of my depraved sin nature. >> I think that's kind of funny that you bring that up because the song that came to mind when I hear stumble, you guys ever listen to DC Talk? >> Oh, yeah, for sure. >> I was in a Christian rock band when they were popular. >> What if I stumble? What if >> Oh, yeah. >> And then you have like one of the biggest guys on DC Talk stumble, >> Mhm. >> sin egregiously. >> Oh, I didn't know that. [snorts] >> Michael Tait. >> Yeah. >> Like Michael Tait did some unspeakable, >> Yeah, some >> disgusting things. >> Sexual assault, same-sex >> Yeah. >> sexual assault, like some >> For like over 20 years. >> Pretty rough stuff. >> And he put something out where he is like, yeah, I've been in sin I've been in sin for a while. Um some of the things I would push back against, but most of it's true. Um and some guy, some pastor took a picture of himself hugging Michael Tait at some event saying, "Hey, you know, this brother's fallen." You basically like, "Hey, we stumble." But rather you like people are like, "We sin." You know, it's like a stumble stumble and sin are the same thing, but how many times do we use something like stumble or mistake rather just to flat out say, "I've sinned." You know, and so it's just like that's I think that's the beauty of the gospel. And I think that's the beauty of what Paul's talking about here is that Israel has stumbled, they've sinned against God. God has given them the Messiah, and they have just said, "No." >> To his yes. >> Yeah, how did they stumble too? It's like, okay, well, they stumbled by trying to gain their own righteousness. >> Yeah. >> By by trying to like check all the boxes and like guys, I just got to say I I I kind of get a a pretty good sense of who my audience is. We got a lot of lean forward type A guys, a lot of guys that, you know, are trying to crush it in all these very, very important areas in their life and they're trying to become more biblically literate and getting better shape and start a business or, you know, keep a business going. Like they're they're doing these kinds of things. But then they kind of forget like at some point it's like maybe they have their justification moment, maybe it was a big dramatic conversion moment, something like that. But then now it's like, all right, well, now I got to do everything I can to maintain this, right? I I've got to I've got to like keep this up. And it just it really undercuts the the truth of the gospel in their life because it's like, "Hey man, like you good works should flow from the reality that you are saved." That's what James, the brother of Jesus, would say, right? But at the same time, like it's not up to you to maintain uh to to maintain the gospel in your life. That's just not really how any of this works. >> Right. Are you saying in the Greek the that the word stumble just flat out meant sin? >> Yeah, let me go back to that. So, when I clicked [clears throat] on it, it took me to the DBL Greek and it's it's, you know, verb, sin, formally stumble, fall, trip. And so, basically the the the main emphasis on there is like, "Okay, this was a sin." And so, the stumble being referred to by Israel is that the rejection of Jesus, right? We'll see that certainly throughout the section, but then certainly just that they they sin by trying to gain their own righteousness. >> And they the only way to gain righteousness is through Christ. And so, it's just it's kind of funny how it's just like how many times do we think that our own will is going to gain us righteousness over God's will? And so, God's God's already willed Christ. He's created, you know, Christ came to Earth to be the righteousness. And they're still saying, "No, I think I can do it better." >> For sure. I got uh involved in a conversation this week with kind of a one more. And he's he's a Catholic guy and he asked me if we could go have a cigar and hang out and talk. I mean, that was that was really what he wanted to do. And we've been talking about this kind of stuff for a couple, you know, two, three months in depth. And still at this point, his biggest thing that he would come back to was purgatory. And how he felt like there was there was, I guess, purgatory that gives you an opportunity to continue to better yourself so that you can work your way effectively into heaven. He didn't say it in those words. But we had to spend a lot of time going back to, "Well, what did Christ do on the cross?" And how do you reconcile that? You know, all the way back to unravel works. And it was a really interesting discussion. You know, and it's the same thing, it seems like, what you're saying that the Pharisees are doing here is almost effectively working themselves in by all these good [clears throat] works. >> One, Caleb, look at look at verse 12 where it says their trespass. Now, if their trespass, what is the trespass? The trespass is the rejection of Jesus. >> Yep. >> Um [clears throat] and then well, I'm curious Zach for for your buddy um cuz obviously there is no biblical um basis whatsoever for you know, like the sin sinlessness of Mary and for, you know, this unbroken line of Popes from Peter to whatever uh Captain Dorkface is what's the what's the new guy's Leo? Um uh whatever [clears throat] his thing is now. Um sorry, I just saw literally saw a tweet from him yesterday about capital punishment and I was just like this gigantic doofus. I'm glad the White Sox lost. How about that, big loser? [laughter] Um but I I'm just curious like because kind of the the thing that I've seen lately with a lot of these Catholic apologists cuz you'll see like a Christian apologist debating a Catholic apologist. So, it's it's meant to be like a Protestant versus Catholic thing. But then the Catholic apologist will be like, "Well, yeah, I just don't believe in sola scriptura." >> Right. >> And that's basically what they they put over it. And so, they're like, "Yeah, you know, whenever this council said this and whenever this group of men decided that and whenever, you know, this group decided in the 1600s that the gospel was anathema. That if you believe in grace through faith uh alone in the imputation of the Holy Spirit and all these different things that that is anathema." Uh you know, when you get to a conversation with someone like that, I mean, depending upon how Catholic they are, um will kind of determine their their outcome. I'm just curious what >> Yeah, so it's interesting. It's one of those things where um it's kind of like we're talking about spiritual gifts and all that kind of thing. I'm not an evangelist by any means. It's more about trying to develop a relationship with somebody so that you earn the right to have those conversations. And so, kind of the way that evolved is his community he's got some Protestant folks that really focus on end time stuff. And so, I made a recommendation to him because he was so fascinated about this to read Mark's book The End. And uh actually talked to Mark about this the other day and just told him how much I appreciate that he wrote that. >> You're talking about Mark Hitchcock. He's our He's our pastor at Faith Bible, yeah. >> And it's like an 800-page book on the end times. He lays out all the different cases. It's really informative. And so he told me that he's in like, you know, chapter 16 and he's writing all these verses down to go back and look at. I said, "Man, that's amazing. You know, what what Bible are you using?" He said, "Well, I really don't have one." So I immediately sent him two for him and his son. And that was kind of a difficult thing because I just sent him, you know, the ESV. Right? Straight up. I mean, and he received it and that kind of >> in there. >> That's it. I mean, so that kind of started the conversation and we end up you know, having these cigars and Purgatory came up, Mary came up and all of that and we finally get to the point where I say, "I don't see Purgatory when I actually read the word." And so the the conversation was very much challenging him to just read one gospel. Just read one gospel and then let's work through it. So. >> Which one? Did you select the gospel or >> So I I thought about this and I know the individual, so I recommended Mark because it's the shortest. >> Yeah, it's the action movie. >> Yep. If it And sometimes I'll do John, but you need somebody who's >> John's kind of poetic. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, I got asked the other day, they're like, "What's your favorite gospel?" And I'd never been asked that and so I kind of like, all right, Matthew is the one that's written mainly to the Jewish audience. Mark is the the action movie. Luke is the kind of detail-oriented most exhaustive and then John's the most poetic and then I just went back to Matthew and the the reason why I said Matthew was because especially if you even have any unhitched tendency in you, right? So whether you're an Andy Stanley person or not, but there's something inside of you that says, "Ah, the Old Testament God, he seems scary and mean and like all these types of things. I love the New Testament God a lot better." Well, Matthew's writing to a Jewish audience and so if you ignore the Torah and the prophets and all the wisdom literature, you're kind of ignoring like the the entire foundation of the story, if you will. And so I I kind of went went Matthew cuz I thought that that would be more helpful to call back to the Old Testament more. >> Yeah, no, totally. So, what would the what would like the half measure what would they call like if they don't believe if you don't believe in sola scriptura, what is it what is that called? What's the alternative of that? You know what I mean? >> Yeah, so they would not give it some sort of like name like all the solas that that we have from the Protestant Reformation. They would just say, "Hey, well, I don't believe in sola scriptura." And one of their biggest arguments is because we didn't have the canon. >> Mhm. >> We didn't have, you know, a canonized bound version of the Bible for hundreds of years. And so we need to lean on the early church fathers and the things that they decided and determined. And so the fact that we don't see somebody with a fancy pointy hat [clears throat] and dorky shoes, you know, walking through, you know, a private, highly guarded, highly fenced-in, you know, place in the middle of Rome. Like none of that matters. Like don't pay attention to any of that. And it's [clears throat] just it really leans on these different these different popes, the things that these councils had decided. >> We we talked a lot we've talked a lot about So, one thing is like I'm talking with Jake, it's been interesting. I don't know a ton about the Catholic perspective at all. But so much of what we talked about was somebody that's looking for counterfeit dollars that's been trained in this. The only thing they do is try to memorize the actual currency so they can spot all the >> Right. So, in this conversation, that's really what I was leaning on, you know, he kind of goes into Mary and what that means and, you know, trying to be a good person and following Mary's example. And it's like, well, Mary didn't hang on the cross and she wasn't the perfect one that died for us. And so how do you how do you position those things in your mind? You know, just the opportunity to walk through it. >> Mhm. >> But yeah, good questions. I have I have very little understanding of what Catholics ultimately believe. I'm not sure if they pray to Mary. It kind of sounded like that to me. >> Yeah. >> And one of the weirder things I've seen is when a Protestant will challenge somebody like, "Why do y'all pray to Mary?" And then they give this big, convoluted answer as to why they don't uh pray to Mary, but the whole thing they're describing is praying to Mary. Like that's the entire description of of what they're saying. But ultimately, I think before we get, you know, too far into this, like there are Catholics that are saved. Like there are Catholics cuz there there are people who I really respect and I won't name them. Some of them have passed on, but like they basically said Roman Catholicism was an apostate religion. Right? That uh, the it is impossible to be saved and to identify as Roman Catholic. And I mean, I think we know who we're talking about. It's like, brother, like you can't like you can't determine that. Because there are people that are saved that have put their faith in Jesus. I keep thinking of Jim Caviezel. Like I keep thinking when you listen to him talk about Jesus and talk about his faith, it's like, you're telling me that guy isn't saved because he, you know, goes to mass and because he believes some silly things. >> I feel like some people like the traditions of things. >> Sure. >> Um So like, I went Presbyterian for like 3 months and I really enjoyed the liturgy and >> Yeah. >> and stuff like that. Um, but like, I still heard the word. And so, if people are reading the word and they've What's the term you like to use? Pistuoed? >> Pistuoed. Thank you, Joey, for teaching everybody that. >> you know, into what Christ has done, then that that totally makes sense. Like, I I think I think you can be I think there's Catholics that are saved and I just like the tradition. That's my thought. >> Well, so a lot of people have talked about that, Ryan, cuz they're like, uh, "Hey, why are so many young men?" Cuz we've never had a more religious cohort uh, studied more conservative cohort than young Gen Z males. Okay? Well, they're being drawn towards Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. >> Just high church, yeah. >> Yeah, so high church. >> Anglican, yeah. >> Part of the part of the reason There's a lot of reasons, right? But I think part of it is because it doesn't try to be cool like culture's cool. Right? So, well, hang on. So, like it doesn't it doesn't try to appeal to culture, to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Hey, let's put secular music playing in the lobby so everyone's comfortable. Hey, let's let the pastors wear, you know, what the culture wears and talk like how the culture talks and then let's kind of do this church thing. Whereas these kids are like, "No, no, we've done the culture thing. Culture seems kind of vapid. That's why they look at the writings of Richard Dawkins now and they're like, wait, people used to think this was smart? This is dumb. This doesn't This doesn't mean anything. This isn't a worldview that can be lived out." And I think the best thing for Protestants to get out of, "Hey, why are so many people called over to Orthodoxy and to Catholicism?" Is because there seems to be some academic and intellectual rigor to it. Whereas this, "Hey, belong before you believe. This This come as you are. This Hey, you don't have to read the Bible. We'll do it for you." Like that kind of idea. It's like, "Oh, no, actually, we You You want to go here? You got to do stuff." Right? A lot of stuff we kind of made up over the last couple of millennia. But hey, yeah, you know, you got to actually do stuff if you're going to stay here. >> I think the the Evangelical Church could use a lot more of that. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Is that Is that But that I don't know. I'm with you on on the people that are being trained to preach or whatever. But it seems to me that a lot of the Catholics that I meet actually don't know their Bible. They don't read their Bible. They're just being told. You know, I think that's probably one thing I appreciate about our Protestant churches is that you're going line by line. >> Well, we're not like that anymore within the Evangelical Church. We're [clears throat] We're We're close to the Catholics now because people are just going and listen to some pastor. >> Well, we aren't. >> We aren't. We're Some people are different. >> But I I I would say we're we're kind of the exception. >> But if we look at If we look at Eastern Orthodoxy compared to Catholicism and compared to to the Evangelical, it's just like they're not buying into the culture. And we're going to go over this in chapter 12. Secularism has taken a hold. Especially within this kind of seeker movement that we have within our church. We're trying to make everybody feel comfortable at where they're at and not push them to actually grow. And people are wanting to grow. People are wanting to learn. Like that's what happened with me. I could sit there and go to the church that I went to for 6 years and just sit there and listen and then go eat lunch and go back home and watch football. But now I'm going to a church where it's like, all right, this message is convicting like today. It's convicting on my prayer life. I'm not very good at prayer. I'm horrible at prayer. We actually prayed beforehand and I was like, man, this is kind of good cuz I need to get into that. I'm trying to really push my family to pray in the mornings. We do it most of the time. Sometimes we forget and that's on me. But it's just like, how are we growing? And people aren't growing within the church nowadays. Some places are different. I'm not saying every church is like that. But if you go and you talk to a lot of people that are in churches, they're just going through the motions. >> What are the motions? It's what are we focused on? >> [clears throat] >> So if the focus is on discipleship, then getting into the word, like being discipled by someone else, like those things are just kind of common. But if your focus is on checking boxes, like okay, go to mass, okay, do confession. And Eastern Orthodox is very much so like like their core fathers inside of their religion believe that you have to have works as well, right? So it's it's it's faith plus works equals salvation, whereas we're like you know, salvation equals our justification plus works, right? So or our justification equals our salvation plus works, however you want to catch it. What were you going to say? >> I mean, I feel like, you know, in Edmond, Oklahoma, being a Christian has always been good for business, right? But I feel like there's a little bit of that kind of happening throughout. I mean, from coast to coast now. I mean, like if you think about, you know, 15 years ago after a sporting event, it was pretty cool, it was pretty rare to see someone like reference God, right? Now it's constantly. I mean, it's all the time. I can't remember what quarterback it was recently that he he kind of gets some question and then the first thing typical, it's like, you know, first I just want to give glory to God and everything, so on and so on. And then he answers the question and then at the end he's like, let's go, you know, and he just drops a [clears throat] big F bomb right into the into the mic and it's just like, really? You know, so I mean, I'm working with uh ninth graders at our church and [snorts] one of the things we've been talking about constantly is like, what what does this actually change about you? Like what is just kind of the expectation of like you you need to do something. Like this is not you're not just sit here and you know receive it all and then go about your life, you know, with no change, right? Um it's actually what's what's going to land and what do you need to change about your life? Kind of like you always talked about being embarrassed about how you were 5 years ago. You know, I mean it's like that's what I'm trying to convey to these kids, but it's the same way. I mean I agree with you, Ryan, about there's a lot of people just checking the box, you know, of like going to church and doing the things rather than it actually permeating your life and your actions. >> We talked about prayer uh this morning and uh I forget who said it. I would love to be able to give them credit, but it's like, "Hey, if all your prayers over the last week came true, how different would the world be? Would you have just had that food, you know, blessed to the nourishment of your body and gotten that parking place and and woke up and had a good day?" Like what what are we praying for and how are we praying? And then like when you see someone like Philip Anthony Mitchell who just yesterday, I mean they filled up Cowboy Stadium as of the recording of this yesterday they filled up Cowboy Stadium with for like their hour of prayer thing. And um hearing some private stories that I've heard about him in prayer when there's no cameras around, no journalists around, no podcasters hanging out trying to like get a scoop or something like that, they're just wailing and like like going to war and man, I went all the way back uh cuz I love Nehemiah and I saw he had done a a series on Nehemiah back like two churches ago. This is like over a decade ago. And he was just basically talking about like how Nehemiah uh went went to war in the spiritual realm before he did anything in this realm. And he's like, you know, cuz you know, his his crowd kind of gets like more his style and he's like, "Man, you can't swing on someone you can't see." And so it's like here we are fighting demons and we're swinging on them like we're in a boxing ring kind of a thing. And it's just like, "Well, no, no, the only hope you have is going to war in the spiritual realm and getting angelic help and and the help of Jesus our great intercessor in in these kinds of of sessions." And man, that was convicting to me cuz a lot of my prayers even with my family, even when I remember to do it and check all those boxes, it's like, "Gosh, these are just these are small. Like these are these are not prayers that are like, you know, moving and foundation-shaking for just about anybody." >> the hard part for me is like when you guys start talking about the spiritual realm and like and like [clears throat] going to war with demons. It's like like what are you guys seeing? Like so what my prayer life like I'm not going to war with demons. I'm like I'm like I'm like if if I'm feeling like any type of anxiety or anything, I like focus on God and God's attributes and who he is and how he can overcome these things, but I never feel like I'm going to war with demons. And that's where I'm like I'm like am I missing something? >> I don't know that So, what I would say is you like your focus of your prayer life is your focus and I think focusing on the true and righteous attributes of God that are revealed through holy scripture can't find any faults in that plan. >> I know, but I'm just like but when I hear Philip Anthony Mitchell, he's like, "Man, you're going to war with demons." And I'm just like I'm like I'm not going to war with demons. I don't I don't understand. >> So, if we were to fight a demon, how could we do it? I think it's more so that kind of a thing like So, here, if we're going to war with the next neighborhood over, right? We're going to battle, right? Well, we're we're using physical attributes, we're using machines, we're using firearms, we're using things that we can do. >> You can't shoot a demon, right? You can't You can't do any of those types of things and so it's like you're acknowledging that we don't have the tools on this planet to to physically engage in a war. >> like spiritual attack. Like my anxiety what could be considered spiritual attack and then like me going and praying is kind of going to war with the power of prayer against the demon of anxiety. >> Okay. I guess. >> Okay. So, the very first guy that I ever heard say what you were talking about earlier, like if your prayers come true or anything happened, was Joby several years ago. So, maybe Joby got it from somebody. I heard you say that on a podcast recently. >> Interested to hear what you think about kind of the cultural moment that we're in right now cuz I have this feeling that you know it's kind of in vogue with Trump to be a Christian but when this pendulum swings back the other way, really curious what the kind of the American culture will feel like in terms of the Christian perspective. >> Yeah. >> When it comes to the spiritual side of things, when you wake up at 3:00 a.m. and you have some voice in your head that's probably a lie, >> Mhm. >> how do you how do you put that in perspective? >> Exactly what I just told you. Like I just start to focus on God and God's I like really getting into the Psalms. >> I mean when you read this, there's no doubt about it that there's a spiritual component and I know you know that. I just think it's like underneath the surface like Philip Anthony Mitchell spends a lot of time saying those things on stage like trying to talk about the lies that you're being told and you pushing back for yourself and for your family. >> So the the hard part for me is and this is going a little bit into like how I grew up was spirituality was really used as a way to control people cuz I grew up in a very charismatic upbringing. And it's just like they would use it. You're under spiritual attack. You're under spiritual attack. You're under spiritual attack. And so when you hear that constantly and then I'm like I don't feel like I'm under spiritual attack. Like I deal with anxiety but it's not like man I'm fighting off 50 demons. You know what I'm saying? Like you know it's like it's like I don't know. I just when I hear it being used and I like Philip Anthony Mitchell. Don't get me wrong on anything he says. I think I think that guy is a warrior for Christ. >> Oh man. >> And um I just I'm just trying to find a way to like how do I balance that? How do I balance that into people who do feel like they're spiritually under attack cuz I may run into somebody who's not a 100% believer or trying to trying to disciple them and they're under spiritual attack. Even though I haven't been there, how do I still be able to talk to them and like help them through that and understand them even though I haven't gone through that process. >> I think to take a little bit of the sting out of it, I I if I were to tell someone, "Hey, I have no idea how to pray. What do I do?" And like they're they're brand new. Like it's kind of the best way to lead someone into that is like talk to God like he's there. Like you don't need to he already knows everything but he wants he wants to commune with you. He wants to talk with you. But then when people are like having trouble focusing in prayer, you know what I would tell them? Focus on the attributes of God. Focus on the things that we know that are true about God. Like focus on the gospel. Remind yourself of the gospel. The big job you think is like don't ever get over the gospel. Like oh yeah yeah died on a cross for me paid for my sins. Cool awesome. All right. Now what? Like there is no now what? That's the what? That's the all the all what? Right? But at the same time what I would what I would say is in addition to what you're already doing is acknowledgement that there are things that are there are things that are in your life that are problems because you caused them. >> Absolutely. >> And then and that's true of everybody. And then there are things in your life that are the downstream consequences of the fact that you are individually under attack from demons of of some kind of some sort that are that are in the in the charge of Satan. Right? And so acknowledging [clears throat] that and praying for and and people kind of get squishy with language and all that but it's like God would you help me break any agreements I've made with any dark dark spirits or any attachments? I mean look at what the the Church of 1122 now does in terms of their baptism. They ask two questions >> Mhm. >> of the people that are about to get baptized. Who is Jesus Christ to you? My Lord and Savior. And the second question is do you renounce any connection that you have with anything dark or demonic in this world? Right? Now you can get real charismatic with that and be like all right we're breaking chains. All right we're we're breaking agreements. We're breaking generational sin. We're doing all this stuff. >> We're slaying it. >> And I'm not anti all that stuff. Right? It's not really my world but I'm not anti all that stuff either. >> I get it. >> But if you're having a struggle could it be a generational sin that needs to stop with you? Yeah. Pray like that. Is there is there an anxiety that you're feeling that is attached to the same thought process each time it comes up? Cuz some people are anxious cuz I'm nervous about my workout today. I don't want to get hurt. Oh I'm nervous about this because oh the last time I drove someone almost ran me off the road. But it seems like the anxiety that you're talking about it kind of attaches to certain things in your life. >> Yeah. >> For all you know, that's attached to something generational. For all you know, that's just something that's attached to your wiring. And so, I would just pray towards those things as if, "God, I can't defeat these demons, but in the name of Jesus, like help me overcome this anxiety. Help give me the tools." Like those those kinds of things. >> When you say generational sin, I heard that come up on the podcast. Do you think that's applicable to a Christian today that's given his life to Christ? >> generational sin is applicable. I grew up in a family of, sadly alcoholics. And it still kind of runs in our generation. >> So, there's a genetic component to that. And then there's, I guess, also the cultural component when you're raised and you take the habits of your family in some sense, but >> like my dad kind of broke that. Uh it was a lot with his family. My dad's not a very big drinker. And so, um I used to grow up I used to grow up like a uh being a little bit shamed for having a drink, you know, not so much anymore. But, um but yeah, it was a kind of a generational kind of a curse in our family. And so, I feel like I feel like my dad did a great job of breaking that, but like some of, you know, some of my other family members haven't been so so lucky. And a lot of those guys who are going down that generational path, you know, haven't really pushed you out into Christ. >> I guess I just mean like I'm reading Old Testament stuff now as part of my plan. And that to the third and fourth generation thing could probably sound scary to some folks. But I don't think if you give your life to Christ that you're, you know, going to be punished to the third and fourth generation. >> I mean, you So, and again, you can use the the study assistant um inside of here. You know, there's two two distinct levels to generational sin. There's the consequences of ancestral wrongdoing, right? So, let's say your great-grandfather did something that like lost your family fortune, and it's been several generations of trying to get it back. Okay, there that could be a downstream consequence. And then there's personal account personal accountability for one's own choices. So, I look at it, Zach, more like flavors of sin because like I've I've talked about this a lot on the show. Chemical ain't going to get me, right? So like I love to ask people now in interviews and man, like the the answers I get and the looks I get, it's like, "Hey, if Satan were going to take you out, how would he do it?" Um and like for me, it's not going to be chemical. Like I'm not just like I love Scotch. I love drinking Scotch. I don't like drinking a lot of Scotch. I've never been drunk [clears throat] in my entire life. I've never been so inebriated that I couldn't drive, couldn't exercise, couldn't take care of somebody, couldn't fight, whatever the the situation is. But uh like same thing like you know, opioids or any of those types of things. Anytime I've had after surgery, like I text a specific buddy who's had a lot of buddies that have killed that have died because they got hooked on opioids and then went to the street for them and then got like the fentanyl and the whole that nine yards. Every time I have surgery, I text that one buddy and say, "Here's the bottle. Here's how many that are in there and if at any point you want an updated picture of what's in the bottle, like I'll show you the exact bottle. I'll take a video and boom." They're like So that's not going to get me. For me, it's sexual, right? Like I'm more drawn to like things that are sexual, the sensual nature of things, lust, like those kinds of deals. And so I have a lot of things in place to keep me from being the guy that's going to like torch his ministry because he wants to you know, get laid. Like that's I I have to put a lot of things in place. I don't have to have restrictions uh put in place for alcoholism or for marijuana or for any other random drug or for anything. I think that's more so it because when I hear Matt Chandler talk about the generational sin that he broke, he's like, "Chandler men were violent and lustful men, right? We fought and we took advantage of uh girls with daddy issues, right? You know, that that was kind of his thing and he's like, "That had to stop with me." But he still feels that tug. Like he feels that pull inside of his heart. And I tell people all the time, like I am like porn and masturbation hasn't been part of my life of you know, for 16, 17, 18 years, something like that. It's right there. Like hiding. [snorts] Like I feel like it's literally like an enemy lurking at all times. And so I just can't get caught unaware. And so back to what you're saying, Ryan, who who knew we were going to get into that with the first like verse 11 and 12 of Romans 11. But this No, this is great. This is what Bible says it should be, guys. Like, this is this is kind of what you get into. When I'm praying in those areas, it's like, "Lord, if there's any hidden thing in me that's going to lead me back towards the sinful depravity of a lustful lifestyle that is maybe indicative of Thompson men for all I know. Like, will you find that out? Will you bring it to the light so that I can address it? Like, will you will you do all those things?" Cuz it's like God will help you address your sin by yelling, and you just don't want God to yell. So, it's like, have him talk to you in a normal [laughter] voice. Make sure you're listening. Like, read Bobby Gallaty's latest book about wait here and, you know, sit there in silence and receive that word. And that's going to help you uh do work and uh do battle in in the the spiritual realm as well because to where it's like, "Hey, bring forth a gospel, you know, moral truth in my life and and help me understand ways that I won't be taken advantage of." >> And I And I hear you on that, and I think and I deal with that like when I'm dealing with something where it could be like a lustful spirit or an anger spirit or something like that. Like, it's like God, I love you more. And I have to tell myself that. This is really cheesy. Uh I always watch a What's that cheesy Kirk Cameron movie? >> Like, you say it like there's only one. >> Fireproof. Fireproof. [laughter] Thank you. Yes. Dude Fireproof. He The guy's got The guy's got a lustful spirit. I mean, he's super cheesy. But, uh uh you know, he's he's searching things online and everything and like finally like he gets hit with that spirit again. He's online and a pop-up comes up and like, you know, he's contemplating, you know. And next thing you know, he takes the computer out, starts beating it in front of this one guy like who's his neighbor. >> Careful with the word choice, man. >> [laughter] >> Uh keep going. >> I didn't even think about that. Dude, that happens to me all the time. >> [laughter] >> He The guy literally hits like Kirk Cameron's character hits it with a bat. Sorry, guys. There it is. He takes out, hits it with a bat. >> [laughter] >> This old guy's out there just like He's like, "Oh, sorry, sir." And like his wife comes his wife who's about to leave him. They're about to get divorced. She wants nothing to do with him. Uh he has a he has a thing of roses and he says, "I choose you." Or "I love you more." You know, and like that made me think. Like it's like, man, yes, I love my wife more if I were in that situation, but like do we love God more before we go into something like that? And it's just like that's where I catch myself where I'm just like, all right, I really want to toss this this can, full can, of Coke at this car that ticked me off, you know, cuz we all know about my driving issues. You know, and I'm just like, you know, like God, I love you more. I love you more, you know. >> But you know what's funny about that? So the things you're bringing up, Ryan, are these are clearly sinful things. So even in that doofy movie, like, okay, this is a clearly sinful behavior. Even people that engage in that thing would say, "Yes, this is sinful." But Matt Chandler was the first one that talked about this, morally neutral lesser loves. Morally neutral lesser loves. >> Explain that to me. >> Like sports. Yeah, so dude, yeah, every time I have to say it. So yeah. So like sports or things that are like watching baseball is not a sin. Watching soccer, it's debatable, but like watching baseball, not a sin. >> I know. That's what I >> [laughter] >> I played college soccer. I was supposed to guard this dude and he's watching soccer. I'm like, can we watch something else? I'll watch old UFC fights. >> I think there was nothing [laughter] else on. It wasn't women's soccer, though, so it can't be like can't be that bad. But anyway, so it's it's something that's morally neutral. Like just read reading a classic novel, drinking a glass of water, just try to think of things that are like positive in your life. Exercise could be positive, like listening to podcasts, all those types of things. It's morally neutral. The the thing in and of itself is not a a sinful thing, but it's a lesser love. So for instance, let's say you spend a lot of time on your body, right? So so you exercise, but then you go you go way but why wasn't saying you, I was saying [laughter] like the the the world. So let's assume there was a person out there that did something like that. And then let's say you're you're not spending any time in the word, you're not praying with for over your family, you're not making church a a you're not doing all those things, it's a morally neutral lesser love. >> Yeah. >> Talking about baseball, so like, you know, that's Caleb and I's big connection is baseball and all that and you've got I think all four of your boys have played baseball or are playing baseball at one time. And then you have entire families, I know y'all don't do this, but entire families where travel baseball season, there is no church. >> Yeah. >> Right? Hey, we just we do our best, maybe we'll read the Bible in the hotel room when we're at the, you know, the the traveling tournament or something like that. So, baseball in and of itself, you baseball is morally neutral, but it's a lesser love and it could lead to a sinful depraved way of operating within the world. And so, cautioning yourself against those cuz you'll have guys that'll be like, "Hey, I'm not looking at porn, not masturbating, not drinking to excess. I'm not smoking weed anymore. Oh man, I'm just crushing it." And they have all these other morally neutral lesser loves that are just like overtaking them. And so, this actually does dovetail into this next little section. So, Caleb, if you wouldn't mind read 13, 14, 15, and 16. >> Are we not going to talk about how Israel's jealous? >> Yeah, I know. >> Oh, shoot. >> We need to talk about I mean, I'll read 13. >> No, no, let's go back. Read [laughter] Read 12 Read 11 and 12 again. >> 11 and 12, okay. >> I'm sorry, I took over his house. >> Forgive [laughter] me. >> I don't care. You want to You want to say something? >> So, >> I'm sorry, dude. I just noticed it. I was like, man, >> I was like, [laughter] >> Can I listen to him? Am I allowed to? >> So, I ask, "Did they stumble in order that they might fall?" By no means. Rather, through their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous. Now, if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean? >> So, when we >> [laughter] >> Kyle's like, it's so You know what? I'm just going to I'm going to do a Kyle-ism. So, let's talk about imputation cuz every time Kyle uses imputation, an angel gets its wings. >> How about you come up with like an other world scenario or whatever right now? If you're going to do this this do this right. >> So, >> [laughter] >> so I found it interesting. I like how God is using the disobedience to provide a solution to save the whole world. I mean, that's basically what he's doing because he's already elected Israel. Israel's his chosen people. But Israel's disobedient. He's like He's like, "Here's my yes." And they're saying, "No." And so he's like, "Fine." He's like, uh I'm going to make you all jealous. I'm going to bring this to the Gentiles cuz now it's like now it's coming back to the prophecies of he's coming to save the world. And so I thought it was pretty funny um RC Sproul was talking about he was talking to um somebody who was of the Jewish culture. They you know, go to synagogue. They're Jewish. And he he notices that you know, how many how many times has somebody tried to convert you to Judaism? >> Never. >> Never. It's not a part of their world. He's like, "Why don't you try to convert people?" He's like, "Cuz it's not for you. It's for us." You know? And so if they would have [clears throat] taken that on, they would have been like, "Yeah, it's for us." But God's saying, "No. Christ, the Messiah, is for everyone. And I'm going to use your disobedience. And you guys are going to become jealous. And then you're going to come back. And that remnant that I have, they are going to be saved." >> Remnant. Uh uh uh >> Thank you. Thank you for correcting me. >> Hey uh host Ryan and co-host Caleb, you you cool if I make a Can I make a point? Can I [laughter] make a >> I should have never told you to read that. >> Well, no, because the the jealousy thing actually does work well with that next section that I was going to have Caleb read. So, if you want to keep this jealousy thing going cuz I'm jealous of my own show hosting abilities at this point. Uh so yeah, if you could just read maybe 13 through 16. Uh if that's okay. Ryan, is that okay? >> I'll allow it. >> All right. Let's go. >> I'll allow it this once. Now I'm speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. >> Yeah, so the first fruits here we're talking about, you know, the root, that's Abraham, that's Isaac, that's Jacob. The whole lump and the branches, I mean, that's the Jews, that's the nation of Israel, that's that a whole entire idea. But yes, like it is kind of funny. That word jealous sticks out like a sore thumb, right? In in verse 11 and then when we see it again in verse 14. But it's just like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Like, wait, how could you make the chosen people jealous? Well, you take the focus off of them and say, "Hey, we're actually going to use the way that you've been acting, your stiff-necked nature, right? You know, seeking your own righteousness. We're going to use that to save these Gentiles." And we don't really have a modern way of looking at the difference between Jews and Gentiles or like how how they kind of saw each other as as other. We don't really have that as much in modernity as we might think. How Jews would have seen Gentiles, how how Gentiles would have viewed themselves in light of the Jews in those types of things. But anyway, yeah, let's keep the discussion going on the the jealousy part. >> I mean, on 14, too, like I it's just interesting how it all, Ryan, you already mentioned it, just in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Like it was just it was necessary, you know, from the beginning. From part of his plan to that they are his chosen people, but they're going to reject him. He's they're going to become jealous and that's how, you know, his ministry to the Gentiles is going to kind of come in, right? >> And I think it's like not unsurprising to see that they rejected him. Because like that's like the whole thing when you you talk about the Old Testament and hitching from the Old Testament. Throughout all the Old Testament, you see them rejecting throughout. So, it's just like it was just it was just built in. >> It's like it's always >> a really good point cuz how could you read this entire section of Romans 11 if you had if you had no [clears throat] attachment whatsoever to the Old Testament. >> Yeah. >> Like the the whole concept of grafting in, which we're going to get into more so like next week or whatever, it's like that would it would it would have no grounding in reality in our lives cuz we'd be like, "What is he even talking about?" >> Mhm. Yeah, I was involved in a conversation recently uh with a a guy and he's pretty I guess close with the Jewish community locally and then also on the East Coast. And he was sort of describing to me some of the cultural ways that they interact and I I I can't make this work, but I guess there's a term that they would use for non-Jewish people that are outsiders. Not Gentiles, but there's some other sort of a slang term. And it's this you know, if you're not part of our community, then you're outside of our community and and uh there's there's a pretty big disposition to not interacting with you. I know that, you know, there's a lot of Jewish folks who are culturally Jewish, but don't necessarily believe in the you know, the the religious component or the God component. But it does seem to me like, you know, there's there is something to that. >> Yes. >> Yeah. The most commonly used term used historically and colloquially to refer to non-Jewish person is a >> Have you guys heard that before? >> Yeah. >> The is the plural. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, I guess that's still alive and real, for sure. Um the way that this is describing it. You know, it's hard for me to not think about guys like Ben Shapiro when I'm reading this. >> Right. >> When he was on um whose podcast? Who did he He had uh John MacArthur on. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, and Vody. >> And Vody. >> He had both of them on basically right before they died. Think about that. >> Yeah. >> Extremely >> The Jews killed them is what I'm saying. That's what I'm like that's what I'm saying. Like thanks a lot Candace Owens for >> [laughter] >> uh blowing the top on that. But anyway, make your make your point. >> No, I mean that that's the basic point. I mean, what you know, a lightning sharp guy, just a brilliant guy. And uh when you bring up Isaiah 53, it's just almost you know, well, we have we've had plenty of Messiahs and plenty of saviors and it's just dismissed. >> When when you look at people that are doing this kind of man on the street thing in Israel, they will actually read from Isaiah. >> Yeah. >> And they're like, "What's that from?" And they will all answer the same way, "Oh, that's that sounds like it's from the New Testament." It's like, no. >> No. >> It's Isaiah 53. And you know, it's just kind of one of those things. And when you when you look at the the Jewish uh schools and things like that, you have it's it's still to this day you will have the these kids that are memorizing entire huge chunks of scripture. >> Yep. >> Of the Torah, the major and minor prophets, like, you know, the wisdom literature. And then if you have them say, "Hey, quote me something from Isaiah 53." They don't teach it. They skip it. >> And it's like, "Why?" Like, why would you skip that? Maybe because it says he was pierced for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities. Yeah, well, that's going to kind of like throw into question um this whole idea. It's like, maybe you're going to have to be like, "Well, I think we may have killed the wrong guy." It's like, but yeah, >> It's like that whole partially hardened thing. It just you can kind of sense and feel that when you're seeing a Shapiro. You know, it's interesting, too, when you read through this because half of the Jewish population is back in Israel now. And I was trying to think this think about this from the perspective of well, at what point do you have this major you know, event where the Jews the Jewish people come back to Christ and on what timeline? >> Yeah. >> And it I mean, it this will go in further, but it says once once the last Gentile is saved, you know, that God has chosen. And so, that's when you'll know. >> Well, I think regardless of your eschatological viewpoint or something like that, um >> Yeah. >> it's it's really hard to make the argument that God doesn't have something planned for the Jewish people in the end times. Uh that's something that's just really clear when you look at any of the prophetic literature, but also when you get into Revelation, not to be confused with Revelations, which is not a thing, by the way. >> [laughter] >> People on the internet. >> Especially when people say it here at this table, I'm like, "Oh, God, I'd just rather you poke me in the eye." But anyway, it's just one Revelation. He only got one of them cuz there is only one, so just >> you say remnant >> Yeah, the remnant. Just remnant. Just, you know, just yeah, we don't add any extra syllables when we don't need to. [laughter] And so I think that's it's very important for us to remember that there is a plan for that group of people. We really don't know exactly what it is. We're going to have a potentially a very very special guest here in a few weeks on the forging table that will be able to speak more into those those kinds of things. And also it's one of those things even if you've got a really good biblical argument for why and how and when you think God is going to use the Jewish people or bring them back to himself or all that, we just don't know. We can't flat out know. Your opinion on it doesn't make you right, doesn't make you saved, it's not a salvific issue. It is important to talk about, but it's also something important to consider and I think right now cuz we're kind of wanting to close here cuz we're going to get into the grafting stuff for next week. There's so much hard and soft anti-semitism happening right now. Especially in culture. And I mean again, anytime you if you're a public figure of some kind, so anytime I post something that's maybe about the the war between Israel and Palestine, anything that's you know, positive about Israel or even if it's just tangentially tied to a specific Jew. It's like, there's another 7 grand from BB making that post. Or oh, you mentioned which by the way guys, if I got paid $7,000 every time I said something positive about Israel, that's all I would talk about. You know what I mean? I'd [laughter] get all the checks, right? So but it's just kind of one of those things I think it's fine for us to kind of point out. You can't look at a group as a homogeneous enemy and say the Jews. It's like, what are you talking about? Do you mean the people that currently live in Israel? Do you mean the historically, you know, chosen elect of God? Do you mean the Knesset? >> What do they mean by Zionism? >> Well, yeah, it's like what do you what do you mean by Zionism and why is Zionism specifically bad and like you know, and also when you're talking about Israel, are you talking about the the community that has like a healthy population of Arab Muslims that live there? How many how many Jewish people live in Palestine? Oh, zero. Okay, maybe that says something about the two different worldviews and how they operate in the world. But I think for a lot of people, especially when your favorite podcaster starts saying things that are kind of like soft anti-Semitic, what I don't mean is someone who's critical of something the government of Israel is doing or the military of Israel is doing or something that Bibi Netanyahu is doing or the Supreme Court of Israel, which by the way has Arab Muslims on it, what they're doing. It's if you look at the entire group and say Jew equal bad, that is anti-Semitism. Right? That is That is flat out. And if you're a Christian that's been pulled into this by, you know, maybe one of your favorite far-right, you know, Christian nationalist pastors, and I don't think Christian nationalist should be a a cuss word, but like, you know, you're being pulled into some of these ideologies, it's like you got to be really really careful about what you're doing because we can see even in this Pauline letter in chapter 11, we see that God has a plan for the Jewish people, right? And that could include some of the people that you don't really like that much right now. But we're going to cut it off there cuz we're going to come back here next week. Before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. And is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges a spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Come back next week where we're going to start in Romans 11:17. We might go back and get a little bit more commentary, but we are at least going to start in Romans 11:17. Don't forget about the Logos on Undaunted.Life study bundle. Guys logos.com/undauntedlife. It is just an unbelievable thing that you're going to be able to use. You can get a free trial to use the AI software. Stop using ChatGPT and Grok and all these things to do your Bible study. Use something you can trust. There's a Forging Table Starter Set through Crossway. And also we're a donation-based ministry. So if you want to see things like the Forging Table continue to get out to men all over the globe to help us equip men to push back darkness, make sure you hop on board via donor undaunted.life/donate. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void A Wake In. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. >> Void A Wake >> [music]