Hey guys, real quick. So, I've talked to men literally all across the globe about where they're missing the mark and how they want to improve. They normally talk about how they wish they were in better shape. They wish they had a better relationship with their loved ones. They wish they had more success and influence at work and some other stuff like that. But here are some of the most common and biggest things that I hear. I wish I knew more about the Bible. I wish I could lead my family spiritually. I wish I could recall more scripture. I wish Bible study wasn't such a struggle. Well guys, I've got news for you. You don't have to keep wishing. It's time for you to start doing. It's time for you to stop wasting your time and money on stuff that has no eternal value whatsoever. I keep hearing you talk about how you want to be more biblically literate and spiritually resilient. And now is your chance to prove that you mean it. 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If you were to buy each individual resource by yourself inside of Logos, it would cost you over $3,000. $3,000. But if you get the Undaunted Life Study bundle, you'll get all 200 plus resources for just $349.99. Guys, that's $3,000 worth of stuff for 350 bucks, guys. That's almost 90% off. And you know that you waste more than that on the hobbies that you have right now all the time. And these won't help you with your disciplehip and sanctification journeys, right? It's time to get real and take control of your Bible study and spiritual development. Click the link in the show notes for this episode. If you want the link, it's logos.com/undaunted life. That's www.llog.com/undauntedlife or the link in the show notes. It's super easy to sign up. Again, go to the show notes and click the link or go to logos.com/duntedlife. Sign up for Logos and get the Undaunted Life study bundle right now. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the Forging Table. The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's word. And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us. That's Winkler. That's Dean. That's Adam. Guys, we're just going to launch right into the text this week. We've had a lot of fun on on this round, but we've kind of I mean, as a group, even as a smaller group, we've we've basically just been discussing some really big topics uh for the last several weeks via text and even with some of the other guys that are part of this forging table. Um and so, you know, we ended off getting through verse 13 last week. So, we're starting in uh verse 14 this week, but we're actually just going to back up a hair to kind of like grease the skids as we get into this next section. So, Adam, let's go and have you read starting in verse 11, and then we'll read through verse 15. And we'll kick it off from there. Romans 10:11, and this is from the ESV. For the scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." So some of the things if I could start on this, Kyle, I had some thoughts that I wanted to go over. So on this, I circled a couple of words that I felt like were important here. So for the scripture says everyone who believes will be believes in him will not be put to shame. Then it continues on. It says for the same Lord is Lord of all bestowing his riches on all who call him. For everyone who calls on the on the name of the Lord will be saved. As I start going through that and I started trying to think of like maybe some dangers or some cautions we need to be aware of. When you connect all of those things, I felt like there needs to be a little bit of caution or concern for universalism because I feel like universalism is something that's pretty rampant right now in our culture. All roads lead to heaven is basically what it means. >> And so when you see all of this, I feel like it can be easily twisted. And it can be easily twisted where it's like, well, he says everyone, so everyone's going to be saved. >> Especially if you take it out of context, right? I mean, within context, what do they, again, going back to I've been making this point for the past few weeks. What's Paul trying to do, >> right? >> Paul is trying to evangelize to the Jewish people right here, >> right? >> So, what's Paul doing? He's trying to he's trying to basically tell them, look, you all think it's just been you. The Gentiles are now in. >> It's not just you anymore. And as a matter of fact, some of you are out. And not only that, the Gentiles [laughter] got to >> the remnant, the remnant of you are the ones that are going to believe in Jesus, right? >> The Gentiles got to it before you did. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, so >> some of them there's Jew Jews were first. I mean, the twel apostles, I mean, we're all Jews. I mean, >> to the belief [laughter] in Christ, fair. I see what your point. Yeah. But, so, so in Okay, so there's there's the caution about in context. This this can be dangerous. So, we need to be aware of that in culture, right? So, the second thing that we've talked about on the show a lot is is the the doctrine of what's called limited atonement, right? And so, I feel like this is probably a couple of verses where we need to dive into that a little bit and see like what is this what is limited atonement mean? And so, this is Calvinism, right? Calvinism and Armenianism, which we've had several discussions. Ryan Horn and I have had had some debates on this show about that. And so, we're talking about limited atonement. It's the third tenant of Calvinism. It's the L in the tulip doctrine. Right? So what would a Calvinist say typically if I have seen a strict definition from a Calvinist of of what limited atonement means? I would read this. I would say Jesus died specifically to redeem the elect. Okay? His death didn't morally make salvation possible. It actually purchased and secured their salvation, including ultimately their faith. But again, the most important piece being Jesus died specifically to redeem the elect. That's the way I've historically always interpreted it. That's why I've always struggled with it. Because to me, when I've heard the words limited limited atonement, if he only died for the elect, it seems like his death on the cross was not meant to cover everybody. It didn't cover all. It was only there just to cover the select few who happen to be the elect. And I've always been a hardcore like, I don't like that. That does not sound right. Not only that, I don't like that, but I don't feel like that's what scripture says over and over and over. Everyone who believes in him, for the same is the Lord is the Lord of all. All all who call on him for everyone. John 3:16, God loved the world. Uh 1 John 2:2, he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the entire world. 1 Timothy 2:3-4. This is good and acceptable in the sight of the God, God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of his truth. For his desire is for all men to be saved. And so, uh, Horn and I have gone around and round on this and at the end of the day, Kyle, you were on this text thread and I kept getting back to the same point that like this is this is semantics in the way we're talking about things because I am continuing to hang up on this limiting the atonement to only the elect has been bothering to me because I don't find that in scripture and it's because everyone, all everyone, all God desires for the entire world to be saved. But what really got me there and helped me to understand is that what uh Horn was saying is that his um un the atonement is what did he say? >> This is the sufficient sufficient for all efficiently applied. >> Okay, thank you. Sufficient for all >> sufficient foric efficient for the elect. Okay. Okay. And so what I kept saying is that like I will concede that at the end of the age, at the end of the time when we know who the elect is, like I'm not trying to say that yes, Jesus's death and his blood and his sacrifice is going to cover all. I'm not saying that. I But I do agree with this when once it got brought to me that it's like it's sufficient for all. Absolutely. I'll stamp that. It has to be sufficient for all. The way I've interpreted limited atonement is not has not been in that way in the past. If it's sufficient for all, that's great. But at the end of the age, when we know who the elect is and who the elect is not, it's only going to cover the elect. I would also say that's true. So, I've kind of gotten to this point to where maybe I'm like a halfpoint Calvinist on this limited atonement idea that I don't like that they they possibly try to limit Jesus's death on the cross to only being the elect because that does not feel right to me. >> Well, and So this is as you talked about, you already use it. There's semantic overload with this. This is something I've said over and over of the five points of Calvinism. This is the one where two people can be saying the precisely same thing slightly differently and they will just go right past each other and they'll be like, do you agree? No. They'll shake their head yes as they say no. but also other places where in other Paul's letters 2 Corinthians 5 uh 14 and 15 for the love of Christ controls us because we have concluded that concluded this that one has died for all therefore all have died and he died for all that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised and uh I know Joby said this before trying to explain limited atonement he talked about Chick-fil-A it's like okay tomorrow is like international chicken sandwich say everyone gets a free chicken sandwich. And he's like, "Not everyone gets a free chicken sandwich. Only the ones that show up get a free chicken sandwich." But I'm like, "No, no. >> How many chicken sandwiches need to be ready?" >> That's right. >> So, if Chick-fil-A is giving out sandwiches to all of humanity tomorrow, they better have 8 billion sandwiches ready to go or else it's false advertising. >> My my qu That was my question. I as I asked that question on the Chick-fil-A analogy is like, "Well, when do you make the payment?" >> Well, it's like, "And then how much do I pay for the sandwich handing out?" Because okay, do you hand out 8 billion coupons, but then only the people that show up get the sandwich? Because then that means like, okay, coupon's available to everybody. Everyone got the proclamation of the gospel, but then you had to show up. So what is your part of the deal? Okay, so the Calvinists would say the only thing you bring to your salvation is your sin. Okay, great. Got it. I'm on uh team sin. And so all I can do is repent and believe. But I can't even believe. That is something that's imputed to me through the righteousness of Christ. So all I can do is repent and then I have to do the very first thing which is not salvific but I'm supposed to do it and that's baptism. And so but uh before we get any further in this discussion um I was working in my office today and I found this scroll uh that I thought might be able to uh help uh I don't know what there was no note on it on the outside. There was just this the scroll. So I I wonder what this is gonna >> say. >> I've not read this before. This is not this is not like a thing but uh here we go. [laughter] Uh limited atonement as I understand it doth chiefly affirm that the death of Christ was ordained effectually to redeem the elect and that those for whom he died shall indeed receive the saving benefit thereof. Yet some object that such a doctrine seemth to imply that the blood of Christ lacked sufficient virtue to save all mankind as though the worth of his sacrifice were bounded by the number of those who are saved. I confess that I find such an objection to be in large measure a dispute of terms. For if all men are not finally saved, then the saving efficacy of the atonement is in some sense limited, not in the power or worth of Christ sacrifice, but in the persons whom upon whom its saving benefits are effectually bestowed. We must take heed, brethren, lest in our endeavor to comprehend the councils of the most high we presume to sit in judgment upon the wisdom of God, his ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts higher than our thoughts. We may search the scriptures, reason together as brethren, and make our case both for and against limited atonement. Yet, when all our disputations were ended, we must confess that the creature cannot exhaust the wisdom of the creator. For my own part, I am persuaded that the death of Christ is the infinite worth of infinite worth and sufficient virtue for the salvation of all. Yet, that is, saving efficacy is effectually applied only to those who believe. to say otherwise and my judgment would either diminish the power of Christ's sacrifice or cast confusion upon the holiness and justice of God. The lamb of God did not offer a sacrifice of insufficient merit. Rather, the merit of his sacrifice is infinite. Whilst the saving application thereof in is according to the gracious purpose of God and concerning those oftus expressions, all everyone and the world, we must exercise great care in our interpretation. Remember that the promised messiah was according to the flesh looked upon as the savior of Israel. The great distinction in the apostolic age was between Jew and Gentile. Therefore, when the scriptures speak of Christ as a savior of all or the world, we ought not hastily to impose upon those words a universalistic meaning. In many places the languages magnifying the breath of Christ salvation beyond the borders of Israel, not Jews only, but Gentiles also. The blood of Christ is of such worth that it is sufficient to redeem men from every nation, tribe, and tongue. Those whom the Jewish mind might have regarded as strangers and strangers to the covenant. So let us, dear brethren, take delight in searching out where Paul is leading us. Let us allow the text to speak according to its proper sense, submitting our understanding to the whole council of scripture. Let the Holy Spirit spread the word, be our guide, and let us lay our preferences, traditions, and sentiments upon the altar before we enter into the debate. For in the end, we are not as wise as God. My dearest love to you, my brethren. William Ryan Horn. I'll let you keep that. Is >> that King James version? >> I just I just felt like we just were read a letter from the Talmet of Ryan Horn. Appreciate >> this. [laughter] >> Dude, I am so Man, I appreciate the heck out of him doing >> that's why you get to keep the original copy. That is the original autograph, sir. Dude, that is that is pretty special. >> So, >> I mean, I could I honestly as I was shocked as you were reading it, it's like I'm following this. I'm following this and I could feel myself until like check mark, check mark, well written, well said, well written, well said. Can't can't argue with that. Can't argue with that. Like that was impressively done. >> Well, and this gets into and honest to goodness, I did not read that. That was the first time I had read it. And so, uh, when I started seeing bestow and brethren, all that, I was like, this is going to be a disaster. uh but got through it. Okay. But as we >> I was going to say the question on the limited atonement. Okay. I'm just going to bring this >> the question is who's doing limiting? >> It's it's not a matter. Here's the thing. It's not a matter. I have no heartburn saying that this is not a universal application. Okay. In terms of like you know it doesn't matter. >> A lot of people are struggling there. >> No, I don't think they are. Uh so I I don't think the argument is the universalist versus the the the the saving grace of Christ and that how that faith is required. It's the the question is who's doing the limiting >> because I would say it's pretty clear that Jesus's death according to scripture he died for all sin but maybe not all sinners. And when you start when you start separating those two because and I kind of like uh the the analogy of Jesus as a chain breaker, right? Okay. That we're all just chained to our sin. Well, I've always been kind of more the CS Lewis camp of I don't you know that that hell's a hell's a a home locked from the inside. Thank you. Hell's locked from the inside. So this idea that God made a provision, okay, which we've seen him do over and over and over again throughout scripture, he makes a provision for everyone to come to Christ. He's made sufficient payment for everyone to show up to Chick-fil-A, that everybody can come. The question is who's coming and how do they get there? And whenever you start thinking about, well, how do they get there? See, and I would say a Calvinist, and this is going to be a little semantical, but a Calvinist would say, "You're not coming. God's bringing you." >> Right? That that the regeneration precedes faith. >> A dead person cannot reach out their hand, correct, and grab the extended hand of God. >> I say I I would disagree with that. Okay. I would say, and I think again, I think this is pretty clear from scripture because we see consistently faith is separate a separation from works. But in a Calvinist doctrine, that idea that my faith would preede that regeneration, me putting that faith in God, that uh that that in itself, they would consider that a work that faith itself would be a work, which we can see throughout scripture. It is a >> very clear separation. That's Sproul talking, by the way. Sproul says that. >> I don't know that they would say that that's a work. I would think that they would say that like you're elevating yourself over God. >> Like what's more important? God's um God's Man, I'm trying I feel like I'm like in horn seat now, but like >> I I feel like who's who's who has a better power to save your decision to profess faith or God's decision to save you? >> And this this goes back to the whole Okay, again this goes back to the whole you have received a gift. >> Yes. the gift of grace. Okay, I have to what I'm bringing to this and this is again this is where I kind of go the infinite love of God. Okay, because one of my issues with a limited atonement is I have now limited his love. >> Okay, because it's only applied to certain people now. Okay, he loves everyone enough that he's made provision for all. Do you love him back? >> Do you love him back? That's your faith. I love you so much that I am putting my faith that this sacrifice counted for me in some way that I do not understand. But it did. >> But what a Calvinist would say is that left to yourself, you would never pick him. >> Yeah. And I don't agree. >> I I I mean maybe. Yeah. I don't know. It's >> you have to reckon with the hearts of Romans. >> You have to reckon with Romans 1 and Romans 3 and the depravity. And >> Mhm. >> So, you know, it's like who if if we can get past that, if we can get past our rags, if we can get past returning to our vomit, if we can get past whatever that was, if we get if we can get back get past whatever it was in Romans 7 where Paul was coveting something, and he never I don't think he ever described that any further, but he said he was full of covetousness over something. Um, you know, whatever that was, how did he get over that? How did he get to where he's at? Like, I don't know if it was his doing or God's doing. I think Paul would say it was God, not him. >> And also to to what you just said, Jake, is faith is imputed to us. We do not choose faith. >> And that's that's part of the mystery and I am very uncomfortable with that language because that is fence straddling fence straddling language to me. I'm going say it with your chest. You know, pick binary zero or one, black or white, and then stand by it and defend it. But if faith is given to us in a one-way street way, it's imputed to us. Then that means we did not choose the faith. It was given to us. >> But see, that's that's what I'm saying. I don't agree with that. >> So what what gives you from here? >> I look at I look at Abraham who had faith in a God and a law that did not exist at the I mean he he had no knowledge. He just had faith in God. That's it. And he was chosen for a covenant for that purpose. >> But how did he get the faith? >> He had it. >> But it ch it changed once Jesus hung on that cross. Like that's where in Romans >> No, it fulfilled it. Didn't change it. >> Well, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it did. It's it did. It did because now a a it said Abraham's faith was going to be credited to him as righteousness before Jesus came. >> Okay. >> And that was in answer to the Jews being like, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What what about our forefathers? What about our forefathers? You just you just dropped a bomb on us and like are you saying Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Joseph and all these people are in hell? And that's what that's why Paul answered said no. Their faith is going to be credited to him as righteousness. But if that was true, >> I would say if that was true for Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, everybody pre Jesus, the answer after Jesus is is different. Now we know, now we have the gospel. Now we're under a new covenant. New covenant is different now that Jesus has been here. >> Fair enough. I see your point. So faith in Christ would be credited to you as righteous right righteousness. >> Correct. That's >> credited to you though. >> I would say I would say yes by because left to my own uh left to my own choices, left to my own abilities and my own fallen deprave depraved nature, I would never choose God. >> Yeah. And I like I said, I don't I don't agree with that. I just I don't see that when I see faith outlined in scripture that it is that is a and again I look at this as it's a return of the love we've been given. >> Okay, I like to again I like to kind of there's been a lot of puzzle pieces I've been putting together because it's it's not just we've been given scripture, we've been given creation, we've been given marriage. Look at my wife. Okay. Okay, I I have a love for my wife, but there's not anything that I've done to basically say, "And you now love me back. She loves me in return as my bride." Okay, we are the bride of Christ. Take this cup and drink it. If you're familiar, I talked about this on the show before, but if you're familiar with the Jewish wedding ceremony, >> okay? what Christ is doing at the last supper, the Jewish wedding ceremony, they actually would take a cup of wine >> and the groom would drink it >> and then he would hand it to his um betrothed. If she drank it in return, then they were betrothed. I'm sorry. That's like the two he would offer that and then she would drink it. Then you know what he would do? He would go back and prepare a place for the two of them. And sometimes that would take, you know, years. But his responsibility at that point was to make provision for her. Okay. I look at that and I'm going, okay, at the last supper, Christ is offering that cup to every one of his apostles. 12 people who at this point, you would say, have been chosen, right, by Jesus directly. And yet he still hands them the cup and says, "Take it and drink from it." Judas drank but didn't believe. Cor. >> So the problem is is you've said two or three times now that you don't agree with it, but it sounds more like you just don't you don't like it. >> No, I don't agree with it. >> Well, because you're you brought up Abraham and that his faith was credited to him as righteousness, but you didn't engage with where did his faith come from his faith. I'm saying when it says his faith, I look at that as it's Abraham's faith in God. >> Where did his faith come from? >> Him. His faith. It's his him internal. >> Your height is your height. But you didn't make yourself 6'4. >> Sure. >> It was given to you, right? >> Genetically. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Where you were born was given to you. Your parents were given to you. You chose none of it. >> Mhm. >> And so where does the faith of Abraham come from? Where does the the righteousness or the faith at that point you're arguing? At that point, you're you're disputing like where does love come from? Because look, to me, faith in and of itself is is the same. It's it's no different than >> verb, noun, all the things. I'm talking about faith because the faith that was credited to him as righteousness, the sticking point is not did he love God enough to have faith. It's where did the faith come from. >> Mhm. I I I keep saying it. I mean, I'm not going to I'm not going to come off of that. I'm saying the faith is something that is generated within him in love towards his groom, his bridegroom. >> So he decided upon his own faith like he he created the faith. >> He put his faith in God, >> right? But that doesn't we're not talking about first things. He put his faith in God, meaning he had it. >> But where did the faith come from? You're saying it just came from inside of him. So he was able to act contrary to his sin nature to have faith. Wouldn't it make sense that we would have that ability as an image bearer of God? >> See, that's where I man I don't that's >> scripturally speaking the answer is no because we were born into depravity and iniquity, >> you know, I don't agree with that either. >> I know that's that's [laughter] but the thing you have to find a way of the I and I will go back to I will go back to the Old Testament. How often are children referred to as the innocent? Okay. God over and over again re like rebukes entire societies destroys them for sacrificing children that he refers to as the innocent. This idea that they have no knowledge of good and evil. So this idea of like being totally born and like depraved and having no ability to choose God uh you know no ability to react to >> where do we get those ideas? >> Huh? >> Where do we get those ideas? >> John [clears throat] Calvin. [laughter] No, actually because John Calvin didn't write that we were brought forth in iniquity. John Calvin did not establish the the doctrine that we were born into our federal head which is Adam. >> Look at this point. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. We can go back and forth on it. >> Just to basically put it this way. If you believe in if you believe in what you're saying, just assume I'm predestined not to believe this because at this point I >> That's determinism, not predestination. >> I'm I'm I'm determined. I'm predetermined not to believe it because I don't see I don't see or I have I shouldn't say this. I've to I said it earlier an educated person can entertain a thought without um accepting it. I can read and read a lot of what the Calvinist would say about text. I can see what they're saying and in if I decided to interpret it through their lens, I would say the same thing, but I don't. >> So, let's just deal with one thing then. Let's let's make it simple. You were brought I was about to look up the reference, but you know, it's in there. Brought forth in iniquity. You don't believe that. >> We were not born into sin. You don't believe that? >> I believe I believe that we are born into like we are born to we are inevitably going to die. Therefore, we would be born into sin. However, the idea of being totally depraved, I don't believe because number one, I don't believe that there's a complete inability for us to understand God. But I would also say there's a lot of times in the Old Testament where there seems to be some sort of delineation for children who are being described as the innocent, >> right? And so what what's being described there is that they're before they are at the the age of accountability. You can look at people with mental disorders, people that can't reckon, like people that can't take themselves to the bathroom, all of that. >> Uh John Piper would argue, uh Romans 1 covers those people. Same thing with my two children that died in uterero. Were they elect? Were they not? Doesn't matter because they're they're with the father. What you what you have to account for is if you are brought forth in iniquity because what you're describing is that people get to decide whether or not they're a sinner after the age of accountability. that which is there is absolutely no scriptural basis for that at all. >> I don't think that's what I'm implying at all. >> Okay, correct me then. >> What I'm saying is that God made a provision for sinners and that if we and that he has given us ways to understand him and to know him even without the word. Okay, we quote the word a lot. There's people who never get it and yet still are held accountable. Correct? They have no excuse. Right? So if they have no excuse, then essentially there's still a faith that can be placed in them. There there's still a faith that a faith they can place in God. Okay? And somehow that can be counted for them. I don't understand that part of it, but I'm and I'm willing to say I don't understand that part of it. However, I still don't see I don't see the scriptural support for a a regeneration then faith because and I'll go back to my earlier point. if faith because I've seen this over and over again in Sproul's writings and in um MacArthur's writings. They will say that if if faith does not come after regeneration, then faith is a work. >> They say that over and over again. I've over and over again that is what is claimed. >> If faith does not come after I mean I how could that even be a thing? Faith comes after regeneration. They're saying, so I would say the to me it's faith, regeneration. Okay, that's the order of things. Faith then regeneration. >> Oh, I see what you're saying. >> They're saying regeneration then faith. >> It's semantics. Okay, but it's this is where I go. If you look through scripture and you see the separation between a faith and a work and how faith is credited for righteousness over and over again, and our works are not. And then you have Calvinist, prominent Calvinist theologians saying that faith is a work >> if it comes before regeneration. >> I have serious heartburn with that. Let's go before that. So forget about John Calvin, John MacArthur, RC Sproul. Let's go to King David. Psalm 51:15. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity and in my in in sin did my mother conceive me. You don't believe that, correct? >> No, I believe that. >> So you believe we are born into sin. that we are sinners the moment we come into existence. >> Again, there seems to be some sort of tension here in the idea that there are repeated references to children as the innocent in the Old Testament. >> Jake, just to be frank, and this doesn't like we're just friends talking. I I don't know why you won't just answer the question. It's either yes or no. We are born into sin or we're not. Like the semantic overload in your answers is kind of like it's confusing. Because so is it is it we are born sinful or we are born with the >> propens or ability to sin >> with the direct path to sin is inevitable. >> Right. >> I would say the second. Yeah. We are born into a path where sin is inevitable. >> So you disagree with King Dave. >> Born in inequity. >> Iniquity. In sin did my mother conceive me. Born born into sin. That's the ESV. And I mean the Jake Jacob and Esau I mean immediately Jacob I loved Esau I hated. >> I don't agree. Well that's again I think that that's talking about an elevation of one over the other. It's not about and I can go back we can go back to Romans 9 or Malachi or whatever but even the the reference to Malachi. I mean Kyle I guess I would say I I when we I I don't think when David's quoting there I do not take to total depravity. Well, so I I I'm not sure you're I love Jay Riser. He he did this when he did the fortune table with us. Like when people are like, "I don't believe in God." He's like, "Would you mind describing the God you don't believe in because I may not believe in him either." >> So I think some people think total depravity is you are depraved as you could be. No, it's that in your essence you are depraved. >> And because you are sinful, you cannot be in the presence of a holy and just father God without a blood sacrifice. >> So I've talked to you and and you and I have had this conversation before. It it my hang-up on total depravity is not necessarily the the idea of being born in inequity and and being a sin. It it's not my hang-up. It's the idea that I have no ability to choose God, gain knowledge of God or anything. That's my hang-up. There's two parts of total depravity because there's the part where we're born into sin. But then there's a second there's a second part of that and you have no ability to choose God. >> That we won't choose God unless God reaches out to us. >> Correct. >> Left. So >> correct. >> So let's say we we we're possibly undecided on total depravity. But now we're talking about election. So I had to go back to nine. And so uh if if I was to go back to nine and we we just reququed the Jacob I love but Esau I hated. This is what we would have to reckon with when we were studying nine verse 14. What shall we say then? Is there unjust injustice on God's part? By no means. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy. I will have compassion on whom I have have compassion. This gets even more intense. Like the the temperature should be rising as I read this. So then it depends not on human will or exertion but on God who has mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose, I have raised you up that I might show my power in you that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me, well why why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? But who are you, oh man, to answer back to God? And then it goes into the molder, can the molded say to the molder, why have you made me like this? And so >> it's just hard. It's hard for me to look look at this and say, I'll have mercy on whom I have mercy. I'll have compassion on whom I have compassion. He uh I'll have mercy on whomever he wills and hardens whomever he wills. I Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. Like I can't reckon with that, man. >> Yeah, I can reckon with all of it. So they here's the thing. Everything that you're quoting there, all of that is Old Testament scripture. Okay. The potter and the clay. Potter and clay from Jeremiah. Jacob I loved. Esau I hated from Malachi. Uh the Isaac uh or the sorry Isaac and Ishmael, the birth after Abraham. Uh and then you have um but the way that I have reckoned with all of that is number one he's outlining the history of the Jewish people here. Okay, it is a corporate idea that essentially even the reference I mean we only we see Jacob and Esau referenced twice in scripture and when we see it the first time what does it say we have who what in your womb to what to Two what? >> Nations. >> Two. >> You have two nations in your womb. Okay. There was Jacob who was blessed and there was Esau >> who became the >> by Malachi. Okay. Think about the story of Esau. See, look at Esau individually. Okay. As an individual, what's Esau's story? Became very powerful. Came back. What did he do when he saw Jacob? >> Right. Okay. But the people became the >> By the time we get to Malachi, >> they are despised. >> Okay. Because of the in because of the because of the atrocities they have brought about on the Jewish people. >> Mhm. >> So when I read Romans 9 in that section and I'm dealing with that and reconciling that, what I look at is I go, "Well, but Paul seems to be talking to the Jewish people here. He's referencing a full history, a full spectrum of their history. And when he's referencing that, what he's trying to do is he's trying to highlight different things for them because you have a very lawbased, works-based faith. Also, you have a lot of pride in the bloodline or being chosen, dare I say. So, I've been chosen, so I'm special because I've been born to who I was born to. >> No, because God selected you. >> Okay, fair enough. Well, but it's about Jewish Jewish Jewish bloodline. Fair enough. Okay. They are because they chose Isaac over Ishmael. My blood is special. Right. That's the Jewish thought. >> Paul's highlighting you weren't. Okay. Because if it was about bloodline, Ishmael would be in too. >> Throw that right out. Then you say, "Well, but I was picked first. God chose me first." Yeah, but he didn't pick Esau first. He picked Jacob. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, he picked the second just like he's now picking Gentiles. He doesn't have to pick. He doesn't have to go in order. It's not about the works that you're doing. Okay? Whenever he talks about what right does a potter have over the clay, go back to the verses in Jeremiah and reference through there. when he looks when he's talking about that, he's once again talking about a disobedient Israel and a rejection and God rejecting them. And I don't remember the chapter and I'm trying to look it up. But at the same time, I'm looking at that and I'm saying "Okay if Paul is speaking to them and is continually in chapter 9 being the past of Israel, 10 being the present of Israel, and 11 being the future of Israel, Mark taught that a couple weeks ago. >> When you start looking at it from that standpoint, I don't see the application to us. And I would see how you can see it in a post-western world where there is a little bit more of an individualistic take on ourselves. But Paul is writing this to a very eastern corporate wider body that may not think of this in more of an individualistic way. I'm not here to tell you that anybody who believes that other way is wrong. I'm just saying it's not what I don't agree with it. And so your your argument here, which you make a rational argument, I see what you're saying. But in order for that to be correct, you would have to be saying that from 9, 10, and 11, that the words here are written specifically to the Jews and specifically to the Israelites. And as we sit here today, we shouldn't read the words as they seem to read. >> Oh, no. I hold on. So I would say that we should we should be taking something different than the Jews are. >> Okay. So, so they might see it a certain way and then we might see it another way is what is what you're saying. >> I look at that. So, >> can we do do that through scripture? Valid. >> I hit that I hit on it a little bit in an earlier episode. Okay. So, Paul writing this to the Jews is all about rewiring them, right? I I it's not about works. It's not about bloodline. It's about faith. Okay? We would all agree with that. But I would say for us, to me, this is not necessarily a picture. It's not a salvation picture. The salvation picture Paul's painting is for the Israelites. For us, it's an evangelism story. It's taking it's showing us how to maybe do evangelism in a highly effective way. It's taking the history of what things what people know, how they expect, how I'm saved, what makes me special, why am I why am I going to heaven? Why would God count me as righteous? It's taking all of that and saying, "Hey, by the way, it's not quite right. And here's who matters. It's Jesus's matters. It's your faith in Christ that matters. It's your faith in his finished work on the cross that matters." Sorry, I'm getting >> Well, it's like if we went down and we're evangelizing and pulling up all of this Old Testament stuff to people who don't know it, >> right? >> How would that land? But if you're talking about all of the things that are happening, you know, more contemporarily in our world, that that that's a better platform launching pad into the conversation. >> And I love you guys. I I get worked up on this stuff, but I love >> it. I [laughter] I think that this I think this has stayed healthy and we'll continue with that. The thing that I'm still not quite understanding is cuz I I wouldn't agree at all that 9, 10, and 11 is uh the same message to to separate audiences, but I still feel like we're not dealing with with a primary thing. And so, uh, King David didn't work. So, let's go to Jesus. Uh, Jesus talking to Nicodemus. Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water of the and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Mhm. >> Do not marvel that I say to you, you must be born again. >> And so if we are not born into sin, then why would we need to be born again? >> I'm again I don't think again I'm not I think that we are born into sin because that is the inevitable path that we will walk. No, >> you're saying you we are born into the potential that we might sin. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not making a Pelagian argument. We're not going to go that route. I'm saying that inevitably we will sin. Okay. That when we are born being born a into sin because we are when I hear born into sin I hear born into a fallen world. Okay. >> No no no sin [clears throat] is not a a world issue. It's an individual heart issue because being born into a bad place does not make you assume the identity of the bad place. >> It can be both though Kyle. >> No abs. No. Like you sin is individual. I can't sin for you. No, you can't sin for me. Well, I mean there is generational sin, but I mean I don't think >> but I don't carry the sins of of my father. If my father sinned in a particularly depraved way, I do not assume the debt of his sin. I assume the debt of the sin because I am in Adam born in the flesh. >> Correct. >> So I'm I'm assuming of my federal head. >> I agree with that. >> Okay. >> Okay. I agree with that. Okay. So, but I still what I'm still saying is within that, okay, the idea of again, and I keep saying like I don't have a problem with the sinful nature part of this argument. It's the the inability, the total inability. >> Inability to what? >> To the total inability to understand, to pursue, to love, to do anything with God. >> That's not what total depravity says. total. >> It does though. >> Well, that's not that's not the way I would. >> That's not how the author of that doctrine would describe it. >> to total depravity. >> Total inability is not part of total depravity. >> So, so no, that's it's like it's left to our left to our own without God on without God's intervention in our life left ourselves, we would not choose him. >> It doesn't mean what did Jay what did Jay He Jay Rynisner said? It's not like the worst horrible terri >> you're not the worst version of what you can be but you are >> you are not capable of choosing God on your own like he has to again if righteousness is imputed which is what the the word says then that means it's a one-way street given to us that faith is a gift >> not not by works so that no man may boast it's it's a faith gi faith is given to us directly as a gift just like your height your genetics your eye color, your intellect, all that was given to you as a gift. You didn't choose it. >> And you can choose what you do with it. Same like if someone is imputed with the righteousness of God, they can choose to tell others about it. They can choose to turn it into a ministry or they can choose to not tell anyone about it. And thus they're they're furthering their their sin by not sharing it with anybody else. >> But just as you did not choose your immutable characteristics, your faith that you were given is also immutable in that you didn't choose it and you can't change it. So where is my faith immutable in scripture? >> Like the imputation >> where's where's the idea? Well, but imputation assumes a fact. I'm saying >> ask what do you mean? >> Well, that's the that's the question because we're saying we're calling it an immutable characteristic like my height or my blue eyes. Okay. Where is that in scripture that says faith is an immutable characteristic that is just handed over to me? Cuz to me when I read scripture, all I repeatedly see is that there is a faith that is that is that leads to a regeneration or that is credited as righteousness. >> So our common ground is like sin is real. We're certainly born into sin, right? >> I agree with that. Okay. >> And so so we're going to agree that that we're born into sin. And so if we're really getting to the if we're getting down to the the gist of it, it's like at what point what comes first? The faith or the redemption? Right? So we we we you know, let's just use an example like we're we're we're 21 years old. We've made horrible decisions, right? We've done terrible things, looked at terrible things, uh run over people for our own gratification, uh edified ourselves, put ourselves on a pedestal because of our sin nature, right? And like we don't know God, we don't know Jesus, whatever. And so at some point there is something happens, right? We go to we go to a uh an event and all of a sudden we decide we're saved from that point forward. Was it was it was it me that did that? Did I have the power to pull myself out of this and determine that I am now saved and I'm going to follow Christ? Or was it something outside through God's power that led me to that led me to that position in order to have that opportunity and gave me the spark inside of me that caused me to do that? Right? It's like, okay, who's whose power did that? Was it me and my own self-being or was it that there was some type of divine intervention that this was God's plan all along, right? And that's where the that's where we're diverting, right? Is was it me or was it God when that happened? Because from 0 to 18, we're on the same page that we sucked, we were terrible, we were awful. And where where did that where did that spark come from? Right. Actually, if you wanted to go, let me let me see if I can do this a little different. Like, I I actually don't think it's like I don't think I could just be like, I'm I'm robbing a bank. Okay, let's just say I left here. I go rob a bank, take all the cash out, walk out, and say, >> "All right, God, I'm ready. Choose you." Okay, I don't I don't think it works that way. Okay, that that would be, you know, I do think that there's there's probably there seems to be Well, I'll just go back to when I was saved. Okay. The number of times I felt called to take the walk and go say the prayer. I didn't do it on the first time. You know, God be praised if any of you all did, but I felt like I was called several times, go up there. Go up there. No, no, no, not now. Talk myself out of it. Okay. The amount of times I would do that and then but I felt a pull each time. Okay. But ultimately it was like I had to take that first step. >> Like he called me, he called me, but I had to take the first step. So I don't know if that reconciles any of this. >> Are you saying you saved you or that God saved you or are you saying both? >> I'm saying God saved me because I would not say anything else other than that, but I'm saying that that provision was made for me that I had to take a step towards God. I had to take those step the steps towards God after that calling was made. >> Okay. So you got So we let's say we we're at a crossroads. We're at a fork in the road, >> right? >> And we've gotten to the fork in the road at the same pace in the same way and that we're sinners. We suck and we've made horrible horrible decisions and we can either go left or we can go right >> unless [clears throat] you have knowledge of good good or evil. But yes. >> So and and left is good and right is bad. And I feel like in your world you're saying that the first step you got to take, you're either gonna go left or you're gonna go right. I feel like you're saying is Jake Winkler took the step step to the left and chose to go down that road is what I feel like you're saying. >> God called me down that road and I took the step. >> Okay. Well, >> out of love and faith. >> Are you the author and perfector of your faith? Who took the >> You took the step, but you just said God did it is my point. >> So, so in Revelation, >> thank you. >> Uh 3:20, behold, I stand at the door and knock. Like that's that's what that's what I that's how I feel my relationship with Jesus started was. >> There was a stirring. >> Mhm. >> Um that I wasn't responsible for. So it >> Yeah. No, I don't I don't disagree with that. that there is a stirring that I'm not responsible for, but that does not necessarily mean I mean again was the first time you all received that stirring. Did you just did you do the thing? >> No. And it doesn't mean that you did it the first time, but that was that spark thing. That's kind of what I was referring to. It's like there's some there's some type of spark in there. >> No, I remember that. I got that. >> And and so my point was like where did that spark come from? Like something >> that came from God. I mean I'm not >> Okay. So if it came from God when you took that left step and you're at the crossroads, you took that left step. >> I think what we're trying to say is that like >> that was put inside of you from a long time ago and that when you took that step >> that's amazing. >> But that step the step I take I take in faith. >> Yes. But also the the between the two is it Jake or is it God? And I have a hard time imagining that like the the vision of it was that Jake is up here and God is down here. >> Why did I say that though? >> No, but I'm gonna say I'm not [laughter] no because it's a fair point, Adam, because Hebrews 12:2, we assume this is Paul looking to Jesus, the founder and perfector of our faith. What you just described is that you were the founder and Jesus is the perfector. >> I don't think I don't see it that way at all. I don't see that I don't see that at that way at all. I mean again if you go back to the idea that if I am if I have been granted a provision if I have been given a gift the gift of grace that essent and I there's he stands at the door and knocks and I'm on the other side of that door. Okay just like a gift I have to open it. >> A door I have to open it. Right. There is a re to me there is a it's the idea of there is a personal responsibility on my end to respond to the call. Look, we had a whole conversation about having having God call to us in certain situations and us not responding. >> Yeah, sure. >> A whole whole freaking slew of those conversations. >> Where did your ability to respond in the affirmative come from? >> I don't understand the question. >> What was the spark that gave you the ability to respond in the affirmative or to take the step? Because in light of you know you weren't here for this one I forget who who did this batch. Romans 8. So I don't know how many episodes ago that would have been. Romans 8 starting in 29. For those whom he forneew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son Jesus in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. To those whom he predestined he also called. And those whom he called he also justified. And to those whom he justified he also glorified. So glorified is past tense. Basically it's as good as done. And again, the author or the founder and protector of our faith is how the ESV words it. So where did you get the ability to stand and respond? So maybe a better like sports analogy like uh Michael Jordan didn't sit in a room and work his way to being 66. He didn't sit in a chair and concentrate his way to becoming 66. He was given 66. He was given athletic ability and then from there he was able to choose what to do with it. So, your ability to even stand up and acknowledge that you needed a savior, where did that come from? I don't know another way to explain it or ask it. >> I don't Well, I don't I don't get the point >> because you hold on. Hold on. Since I'm three against one here, >> let me just go this route, okay? >> Because the problem that I've got is you're making it about immutable characteristics. Okay? you're you're you're liking it to height or anything like that. >> No, immutable meaning you didn't choose it. >> I right I reject the idea that I didn't choose it because at the same time I would go back and say well Michael Jordan became the greatest basketball player of all time. Okay. He was given these great gifts okay of being 66 and being a great athlete but then he had to he had to do things to become what he became. there was personal responsibility there. Okay. So, whenever you talk about it being an immutable characteristic and like, well, who gave that to you? It's like, well, okay, I'm God gave the God gave the provision of grace to us and then he's giving us the ability to respond to it. So to me it's it's not it's it's to me that's why it's why I keep going like I don't I don't like the question necessarily because I'm going I don't think that I still look at it as to me faith the way it's described seems to regener seems to be something that predates your faith that or predates your uh regeneration that essentially I have to put my faith in God and that that that the the cross counted for me and then when I take that first faithful step I am regenerated. I receive the Holy Spirit >> because I would concede the Yeah. So how many people have been born 66 and athletic and we don't know their names because they squandered their abilities? How many people did we [laughter] I mean how many people did we play ball with that were >> they were God's gift to speed and jumping and all that and then they just they went off the rails. But earlier in Romans, uh, Paul says this, and he's calling back to Psalm 14. What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jew and Greeks, are under sin. At is it as it is written, no one is righteous, no, not one. No one understands. No one seeks for God. >> And >> so in our in our in our operating like we are >> from Psalm, right? >> This is this is Paul, >> right? But he's quoting from Psalm. Yeah. >> That no one seeks for God. Are you dismissing the Psalms? >> No, I'm not dismissing the psalm at all. But I'm saying you think no one seeks for God means >> I'm saying that in that moment in that moment for the Israelites to me they are not they were not seeking God. And so God was rejecting. It was it's the same cycle of Israel over and over again. It's this idea that I've accepted you then I rejected you. You're in, you're out. You're in, you're out. >> The subject is singular. No one seeks for God. He's not saying no nation, no people seeks for God. He's saying no one seeks for God. You're trying to extend it out to a corporate like uh entity or group of people. This is talking about individuals. >> Well, I don't think it did. I don't think it does. Is >> what does no one mean? >> What does that mean? >> I've I've said no one before. >> And I like as in no one as in nobody here. Nobody here. >> Sim simil similar to that verse. So that so that's that's in Romans 3 that you Okay. So Romans 3. There's there's there's more in Romans 8, but like I'm even hesitant to to quote it because it it almost reverberates exactly what what Kyle just said, but maybe maybe even more in a detailed manner going back to total depravity in Romans 8. But before I even quote it, like my struggle with with mentioning it is seemingly somewhat of a fun fundamental uh misunderstanding or or disagreement between when Paul is speaking in Romans. Is this primarily written directly only to a Jewish audience? Period. And that anybody who's not Jewish shouldn't interpret it in the same way that Paul wrote it. and that we've got to think of it in a different manner and then what it said. Does that am I making sense because you said 9 10 11 you know Jews it was written future right and so you know now I'm I'm Kyle was back in three and then there's another verse here in 8 which is even more detailed than that one which says the exact same thing. Um, but if we're if we're if we're going to say that this was only written specifically and directly to the Jews and we have to interpret it differently, that's where I would have to struggle and say like I don't I've never heard that. >> Well, you're referring to Romans 8 7 and 8. It bears reading for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God. >> For it does not submit to God's law. Indeed, it cannot. >> Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. >> Are we born into the spirit or are we born into the flesh? >> No. If you're if you pursue the fleshly desires, then yeah, I would agree with that. >> Are you born into the spirit or are you born into the flesh? >> Well, you're born into the flesh. But at the same time, >> so how do we become born of the spirit? >> By faith. >> Where does the faith come from? >> We're going to get in the circle over and over again because we're going to get in the circle over and over again. >> The author and perfector of our faith. >> What's the end game here? No, hold on. I want to stop, okay? Because look, this happens. This has happened a few times and it's getting frustrating >> because I feel like the last few times I come out here and I'm on trial, okay? And I don't I don't necessarily I said I've said it before that this is this is something that I just don't see what you all see. >> Yeah, >> that should be okay. Okay. And if I have a sal if there's a salvific issue for me, fine. Point it out. But I don't think that what I'm believing here is or what I think or what I believe is in any way, shape, fash, or form something that is revealing that I'm not saved. >> So, give me give me an opportunity to lower the temperature for a second. So, let's let's talk about probably episode [sighs and gasps] >> oh man, maybe episode 400 or so. And so, let's let's turn the tables a little bit. >> I was in that seat. >> Yeah, I remember >> Ryan Horn was over here. Kyle was there. And I don't remember who >> we were in we were in Matthew. >> I think I was there. Who was here? Okay. So this >> a very similar a very similar thing happened and and you know it it we unfairly and all of the things you're arguing for I was the one that was most vehemently like in your in your camp. I was [clears throat] the exact same way and I felt like we had unfairly tagteamed horn for some of the things that are that you know we seem to believe now. And so, you know, it definitely can uh obviously not be the intention of like three people trying to team up. And I feel like we're trying to dig into this to figure out like where are we coming from? But like where this needs to pause is right where you said this is not a salvific issue. >> Thousand% it is freaking not. Absolutely not. Because because Mark has pastor Mark has prefaced this many many times. Every time he talks about Calvinism, he always said Calvinism versus Armenianism or any of these topics about free will that we're talking about like he is very clear that this thing does not matter. If you are a Calvinist, you're saved. An Armenian, you're not. That is not a thing. That is not true. We we believe that Jesus came. He was man. He was God. He died for our sins. He is the reason that we get a chance to go to heaven. We at this point we um are simply debating whether or not what came first. It's it's the free will debate and it's the debate over is it is it is it is it is it >> do I have a free will to choose do I have a free will to choose God? >> Well, and I and Adam, I've actually got to disagree with you because going back to that episode where we were in Matthew, I remember because Ryan left here all no one knew Ryan left here all mad, but he left here all mad and then he called you later and y'all had your own discussion and figured that all out. That same week, I get a call or a text from Joby and he says, "Hey, last when that forging table episode came out." He said, "That was the best forging table episode of all time." And I'm like, "Why'd you say that?" He said, "Well, cuz you could tell it was a bunch of guys that loved each other that were just trying to understand everyone's position." >> And so, your feeling like you're being ganged up on is the wrong way to see cuz I don't understand your position. >> That's why I'm asking questions. I don't I don't have but my my point Okay, going back to it is it is the same free will versus predeterminism debate. Okay, it's the same debate that has been had in church. I'm glad we're figuring it out today because [laughter] >> Yeah, right. But look, I'm glad I'm I'm glad we're figuring it out. >> I'm sorry, guys. I get worked up. I'm sorry. I told you anger is my problem. It's my junior varsity. I'm thrilled. >> Listen, this is this is total like iron iron sharpens iron. And honestly, like throughout my life, I've vacasillated back and forth >> because I'll read things and I'll it depending on like what I'm going through in life, I'll read it and it'll mean something different. I I was raised in a Calvinist church. >> When I had three kids, I was Armeniest as all get out. >> Well, >> and then they all get baptized and I'm like, "Okay, now I can be Calvinist again, right?" Like it it really is like how the spirit's talking to you. Like, man, >> I've said this before, Dan. I mean, honestly, I we all bring some baggage into scripture, okay? And when we read it, there's there's the baggage of family, there's the baggage of how we were raised, what church we were raised in, there's the baggage of even just being in a more western civilization versus an eastern one. Okay? There we all bring different baggage into it and we read things in a way there's there's commentary. I I've stopped reading commentaries like as much as humanly possible. You know, it's like how different are commentaries than to the Talmuds and the Mishnas of the old I you know it's here's you have the word in front of you. Okay. And to your point like yes, it should be speaking to you. It should be uh but as I would say, you're asking a Catholic former Catholic former Catholic. asking a former Catholic to make a jump. >> Yeah. >> That I would just say that's not a jump I can make. You're go you're talking about a salvation that I literally was like, "Yep, if I check these boxes, I'll get there to now." I'm like, "No, it's just about my faith. >> It's just about my faith now." So, I have a faith that's manifesting itself in the works that I that that would sanctify me in the process that I'm hoping that nobody who looks at me would not be able to say that man's a Christian. I'm hoping nobody would be able to say that. But what I would also say more than anything else is I know I have disagreements with my brothers and I'm fine with it. I don't care. Uh but at the same time like under I understand wanting to understand this whole debate. But I will say for me it's always coming down to a free will versus a ter a deterministic model. >> It circles the same drain. >> It circles the drain. >> But can we all just at least agree that all young earth people are going to hell? Like [laughter] that doesn't make any sense. We all Jake shook his head. Yes. For those of you just listening to it online [laughter] here. We need to we need to wrap it. So, I do want to leave us here because technically when I told you to read through verse 15 earlier, you stopped at 13. And so, technically, we have covered no ground on today's episode. So, [laughter] I need to bring us all the way back to the beginning. >> Yeah. No, you Yeah, you you ruined it. I'll take care of it. I'll handle all this. You know what? I'm even going to turn all y'all's mics off. >> Bye. All right. So, I'm going to go ahead and read this verse 14 and 15. Adam, how then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news. Guys, what the person would be called uh when there would be warfare, uh there would be a runner that would be sent to bring the good news of the victory of your people. That was Evangelion. The people would watch the horizon and wait for the runner to come to deliver the good news. If they were running, it meant they had good news. If they were walking, it meant the news was bad. And that changed the trajectory of your entire life. And so, uh, that is the reminder and goodness to everybody. Regardless of where you land, regardless of what theological boxes you check or don't check, you got to share the truth that is Jesus was sent it. Let's all bring up our Bibles. The the gospel is as simple as what I put on the spine of all these Bibles. God sent his son down to this earth to die on a Roman cross to raise from the empty tomb. He ascended to the right hand of the father and we're just waiting on him to come back. That is the truth that we need to share with everybody. But guys, we're going to leave it there. We'll come back next week where we're going to start at whatever I don't know verse 16. We'll figure it out. Uh but we're going to do a quick resilience boost before we let you guys go at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Logos unded life study bundle. Check that out. Notes are in the or the link is in the show notes. We've also got the forging table starter set on Crossway and we are a donationbased ministry. If you want to see how you can continue to help us get this out to men all over the globe to equip them to push back darkness, undaunted.life/donate. Hop on board and be a donor. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undant.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music]