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0:48
- This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:52
Let's get into it.
0:53
All right guys, today we've got a duo
0:55
for you on the podcast.
0:56
I think this is the first time ever.
0:57
This is the first time ever.
0:58
Actually that we've had two people on the podcast
1:00
at the same time and there's a good reason for it
1:02
because these guys are the best-selling co-author team
1:05
that goes by Andrews and Wilson.
1:07
So that is Brian Andrews and Jeffrey Wilson.
1:09
So they are the co-author team of thrillers
1:11
like the Tier 1 thrillers, Sons of Valor
1:13
and their latest book,
1:14
which we're gonna be speaking a lot about today,
1:16
which is called Dark Intercept.
1:17
So both of these guys are US military veterans.
1:20
Both kind of come from very different parts
1:22
of the United States military,
1:23
but it was a very, very interesting interview for me
1:25
because I didn't really know what I was walking into
1:27
because sometimes when you talk with non-fiction writers
1:30
or sorry, fiction writers rather,
1:31
you're just like, okay,
1:32
I don't know, are these people gonna be super cerebral
1:34
or are they gonna be in their heads the entire time?
1:36
How's this discussion gonna go?
1:37
They're a co-author team.
1:39
How exactly does that work?
1:40
Like if any of you guys have been in a writing project
1:43
where there are multiple people involved
1:45
like in college or grad school or something like that,
1:47
you know it's one person that does most of the writing.
1:49
One person that kind of helps
1:50
and the rest of the people you're dragging
1:52
across the finish line.
1:53
So I did actually ask them a lot about that,
1:55
but it was a very, very interesting interview.
1:57
You guys already were familiar with them
1:58
because they did a little bit
1:59
with our botching Afghanistan series as well.
2:01
So I know a lot of you guys got some value out of that,
2:03
but guys without further ado, let's get into it.
2:05
- Brian Andrews and Jeffrey Wilson,
2:08
welcome to Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
2:10
- Hey, great to be here my friend.
2:12
Thanks for having us.
2:13
- Absolutely, I'm so glad to have y'all here,
2:16
but we're gonna start super basic.
2:18
I hate when people start interviews like this,
2:20
but this is just kind of the easiest thing
2:22
for to kind of get you introduced to my audience.
2:24
So I want you each to briefly talk about your backgrounds
2:27
because y'all both had some circuitous routes
2:29
of how you got to being best-selling authors.
2:32
So both of you kind of give me the spark note version
2:34
of your background and how you ended up writing.
2:36
- Yeah, so I guess I'll start, I'm Jeff.
2:39
I'm the handsome half of the Andrews and Wilson brand,
2:42
obviously.
2:43
My background is reads a little bit like fiction.
2:47
I'm sure you noticed.
2:48
I've done a thousand different things.
2:50
My wife and my mom both think I just can't keep a job,
2:53
but I've done a huge number of things,
2:56
but I've been in and out of the military my whole life.
2:58
My family, I come from a family that values service,
3:02
family and faith above all things.
3:04
And so for me, it was a natural thing.
3:06
I worked as a firefighter paramedic,
3:08
went into the military to become a fighter pilot,
3:11
was in a motorcycle accident and that didn't work out
3:13
and went and flew civilian for a while
3:15
and then found myself in another branch
3:18
of the federal government working at some things
3:21
that involved violence of action.
3:23
And as a young man, it turned out that wasn't as cool
3:26
and as exciting as I had imagined
3:28
from the TV shows I'd seen.
3:29
I was proud of what I did, but it was hard on me
3:32
at such a young age.
3:34
So I shifted away from that and went to medical school
3:36
to become a vascular surgeon and live a life a piece.
3:40
And while I was finishing up my training,
3:42
I had stayed in the Naval Reserves.
3:44
I just always felt I needed to do something to serve,
3:47
but I was just gonna be the doc, right?
3:49
And then they crashed those planes into the towers
3:52
and like everybody in America,
3:54
it just [inaudible] me off beyond belief.
3:56
And so called my detailer and told him,
3:59
I want to go back on active duty.
4:00
He said, okay, we'll get you mobilized.
4:02
I was like, no, you don't understand.
4:03
I have a regular commission.
4:04
I want to be back on active duty.
4:06
So I made that transition and that changed like all of us.
4:10
So everyone on this podcast and most people listening
4:13
changed the entire trajectory of my life.
4:15
I deployed with the Marines as a first team surgeon,
4:18
the Devil Docs.
4:20
While I was downrange, I ran into some people
4:21
from my weird past and got a weird phone call
4:25
when I got home or asking if I wanted to meet
4:27
with some dudes to do some stuff.
4:29
And so I wound up with a East Coast Base Seal team
4:32
where I provided combat medical support and training
4:36
and made a few deployments with that group.
4:38
Later wound up in some task force kind of situations.
4:43
I'm sure you know what that's all about.
4:45
And eventually to my wife's delight,
4:48
I was able to slowly transition.
4:50
I think you can appreciate that transition
4:52
is very difficult in a war that goes on forever
4:54
and you have brothers still downrange.
4:56
So like a lot of people, I didn't just stop.
4:59
I slowly pulled out of that world.
5:01
And although during that entire time, I was writing
5:05
and I've always written since I was 12 years old or so,
5:08
started writing novel length works
5:10
while I was still in the military and met Brian
5:13
and we started writing together.
5:14
So that's my bizarre story.
5:16
And I left out as many things as I could
5:18
because Brian says when I tell all the things
5:21
that people think I'm a liar.
5:22
So I left those out, Brian.
5:24
- Well, we don't, we're gonna get all the things out
5:27
at some point in some of you.
5:28
So we don't have to feel too much pressure there.
5:30
What about you, Brian?
5:32
- Yeah.
5:33
So I don't have quite the litany of experiences, Jeff.
5:38
And I did tell him that I thought his author bio read
5:42
like that it was fake and he needed to change it and he said,
5:46
but it's all true.
5:47
So he's sticking with it.
5:50
And after writing with him for as many years as I have,
5:54
I can attest that all these things are true.
5:56
So he's quite an impressive dude in fact.
5:59
As for me, I'm a Kansas born corn fed Midwestern guy.
6:05
I grew up here in the Midwest and went to public high school
6:10
and didn't have a litany of service in my family.
6:14
I'm the first man in generations to serve
6:19
in the US military, which is something I'm very proud of.
6:22
I went to Vanderbilt University on a ROTC scholarship
6:27
and Navy ROTC scholarship.
6:29
And I was a psychology major to learn
6:32
on how the brain works and why people think the weird things
6:35
that we think and do the weird things that we do.
6:37
And then I sort of did a very bizarre 180 pivot
6:42
and found myself joining the nuclear submarine service,
6:47
which is something I never planned to do,
6:49
never in a million years imagined
6:51
that that's what I would end up doing.
6:52
But that's sort of the direction that my life took.
6:55
So spent five years underwater
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on a fast attack nuclear submarine based out of Pearl Harbor
7:01
doing really, really cool stuff, this type of stuff you see
7:05
in the movies and some stuff that you don't see
7:08
in the movies and that's probably even the more cool stuff.
7:11
And then after that, while I was in the Navy,
7:16
I got married to a beautiful, wonderful supportive woman.
7:19
And we sort of made the decision that we could either,
7:22
I need to be married to the Navy or be married to my wife.
7:25
And I kind of had to choose one or the other.
7:27
I mean, that's not true.
7:28
There's amazing women out there who support their husbands
7:32
and husbands who support their wives in service
7:34
for an entire career.
7:35
But for us, we decided that the best thing for us,
7:38
given the operational tempo
7:39
and some of the other family plans and goals
7:42
that we had, it was time to get out.
7:44
So I transitioned and had a wonderful opportunity
7:49
at Cornell University to do the Park Leadership Fellow Program,
7:53
which is a leadership centric fellowship,
7:55
two years of servant leadership training
7:59
while I was getting my MBA.
8:01
And so that was a fantastic experience
8:04
and then got out and did some entrepreneurial things
8:06
for the next, I don't know, eight to 10 years.
8:09
But during that time that I was growing business,
8:12
I also had this passion for writing and storytelling.
8:15
And so sort of doing that on this side
8:18
and what if, what if I could make this happen?
8:20
And met Jeff at a writer's conference,
8:23
we can get into that story a little bit later.
8:26
And then had published a couple of books on my own,
8:29
but really it wasn't until,
8:31
and we'll talk about this too later,
8:32
the sort of the force multiplier effect,
8:35
the collaboration effect of working with a fellow veteran.
8:38
That's really when the writing career took off
8:40
and that's where I am today.
8:42
- Well, let's kind of get into that
8:43
because I just got to be honest,
8:45
writing something by yourself is difficult enough
8:48
for most people.
8:49
But the only thing I can think of that's harder than that
8:51
is trying to write something with someone else, right?
8:54
I mean, just go back, I mean, you got your MBA,
8:56
like I got my MBA when you had to write a paper
8:58
with other people and drag them across the finish line
9:01
and all that, like, and it's hard to kind of coalesce styles
9:04
and writing styles and all that.
9:05
So I guess the easiest way to ask that is like,
9:08
how do you guys pull that off?
9:09
- Yeah, and the way you described it
9:11
is exactly what we don't have going on,
9:14
which is why it works.
9:15
That, you know, we've all been in that group education setting
9:18
where there's two people who do nothing,
9:20
one person that does a little and someone that does 90%, right?
9:23
And if you are in a co-writing situation like that,
9:25
writing fiction, writing novels,
9:27
that's pointless and nobody would ever do that.
9:29
But, you know, be in military guys, all three of us,
9:33
I think this is, and many of your listeners who have served,
9:36
this will resonate, you know, you spend your time
9:38
in the military getting, you know,
9:40
trained, almost molded into this life of service
9:45
where mission and team are put before self.
9:50
And it becomes a part of who you are.
9:52
And so as writers, because we come from that shared background,
9:56
we were very intentional, very early on,
9:59
like most military dorks.
10:01
And we sat down and we wrote out what our mission was,
10:04
what our goals were, you know, how we were going to combine
10:06
our efforts, who would bring what to the table.
10:08
So we laid all that out.
10:10
But the most important thing we did was we put ego aside
10:12
and we said, look, if we're gonna do it together,
10:14
it's not gonna be you writing some and me writing some
10:16
and mine was better or yours was better.
10:18
It's gonna be you and I, as a team,
10:20
are gonna write something and our mission is going to be
10:24
to create the greatest, most exciting novel we can.
10:27
And if we can do it that way,
10:29
then there won't be any lame guy not doing anything
10:31
or someone half-assing it.
10:33
And so we were able to do that just because of that shared
10:36
experience and background, I think.
10:38
And we just sit down, we brainstorm something out
10:42
and we work together writing simultaneously,
10:45
which seems a little bizarre to many of our fellow writers,
10:48
but we divide things up and write at the same time.
10:51
He's writing some chapters, I'm writing some chapters,
10:53
and we swap them back and forth and rewrite them together.
10:56
And I swear, this sounds like something you say
10:58
on an interview, but I swear to you,
11:00
when the book is done, there are many chapters
11:03
where I can't tell you who wrote the rough draft.
11:05
I just don't remember, it just doesn't matter
11:07
because everyone's touched it.
11:09
And in the end, it's just our project.
11:11
So I think for people without that shared experience
11:14
and background, co-authoring, you're right.
11:16
It would be just like you remember
11:17
from that college colloquium, right?
11:19
It would be a horror show.
11:21
But for us, because of that approach,
11:23
I think it works really well.
11:25
- Brian, what about you?
11:26
'Cause I mean, Jeff's given the really nice perspective,
11:28
but I'm assuming there's some more accuracy
11:30
going on, Jeff's kind of blowing smoke right now,
11:32
'cause we're still early in the interview.
11:34
Brian, can you give me the real story, please?
11:36
- I mean, again, it sounds fake.
11:41
It sounds like this is just our spiel.
11:44
But luckily, our spiel is sort of our real life.
11:47
So if you think about seal training,
11:50
you can't have one guy carrying the boat by himself.
11:54
It's just physically impossible.
11:55
Same with operating nuclear submarine.
11:57
There's a crew of 100 people on there.
11:59
It's too complicated, too difficult to do by yourself.
12:03
Now, writing is not too complicated,
12:05
too difficult to do by yourself.
12:07
But running business,
12:11
that's pretty hard and complicated to do by yourself.
12:13
And I think we approached this in the beginning.
12:16
You know, that first book,
12:17
it's, hey, we're co-offering to write this book.
12:20
But now, as our brand has evolved,
12:23
and we are partners in this adventure,
12:25
it really is a venture.
12:26
It's a business.
12:28
We have a brand, and there's a lot more
12:30
to selling books than just writing the book.
12:33
I mean, there's the entire marketing component and publicity.
12:37
There's all the accounting that goes with it,
12:39
and all the travel and networking and interaction,
12:42
and we're starting to get into some stuff
12:45
that has to do with television.
12:46
So that's exciting, too.
12:48
So when you work all these elements in,
12:51
you realize this is really too much
12:53
for just one person to do entirely by themselves
12:56
and do at an A+ level.
12:58
So we really figured out pretty quickly
13:02
'cause things were coming at us fast.
13:04
Okay, Jeff's best at this.
13:06
I invested that.
13:07
What are our strengths?
13:08
What are our weaknesses?
13:10
And so we divide up all of the work.
13:12
And it happened very naturally,
13:14
and it wasn't something we had to fight about
13:16
because I think two things.
13:18
One, like Jeff said,
13:20
our military background makes it very comfortable
13:22
with this idea of specializing in you.
13:25
You carry the load for time and other than that.
13:28
Then you pass the load and the other guy carries the load.
13:29
So that's sort of in our DNA.
13:32
But I think the other thing to think about,
13:34
and this is just something we could maybe talk about
13:37
later in the podcast as well.
13:39
You have to reach a point in your life
13:43
where you become secure
13:45
with what you're good at and what you're not.
13:48
And you really have to figure out,
13:50
if my ego is always getting in the way
13:53
of my decisions and my interactions with people,
13:56
I'm not gonna be the best that I can be, right?
14:00
'Cause I'm too worried about what I'm insecure about
14:02
to be really focusing on the job at hand.
14:04
And so we've tried to sort of put our egos in the drawer,
14:08
look ourselves in the mirror and say,
14:10
okay, Jeff's better at this than I am.
14:12
And I'm okay with him taking the lead on this
14:15
and doing it because I don't have to be the star of the show.
14:18
And Jeff doesn't have to be the star of the show.
14:20
And for us, that's been both cathartic,
14:23
also incredibly, incredibly productive.
14:26
- Yeah, that's actually one of the reasons why,
14:28
I don't know if either of you have much
14:30
of a background with Jiu Jitsu.
14:32
That's one of the reasons why encouragement
14:33
to get into Jiu Jitsu,
14:34
'cause that is the biggest ego killer in the world
14:36
because every day you walk in there, you die a little bit, right?
14:40
And then you get these little rays of light
14:42
that poke through every now and then, but it's,
14:44
you're constantly having to put the ego to the side
14:46
as Ryan Hall, they would say ego is the enemy.
14:48
But I think that actually goes into something
14:49
from y'all's media kit that I really keyed in on
14:51
that I wanted to ask you about.
14:53
There's a quick quote from the media kit.
14:54
It says, "They write action, adventure,
14:56
and covert operations novels honoring the heroic men
14:59
and women who serve in the military
15:01
and intelligence communities."
15:03
So it's a service idea, it's a service brand, right?
15:06
So for me, having grown up around the military,
15:09
but having never actually served myself,
15:10
which is one of my bigger lifetime regrets,
15:13
that's something that I was very interested in
15:15
that y'all are writing these books
15:17
with a particular purpose, because yes, this is a business.
15:20
Yes, we work in a world where you have to give
15:22
your time and talent in exchange for money,
15:24
and that's what you all are doing,
15:26
but there seems to be some sort of a higher purpose.
15:28
So I'd like to kind of hear from both of you
15:29
about kind of why do you do that?
15:32
- Yeah, so I think that it's fun for us
15:34
that you key into that, and it's something that is part
15:37
of the writing as well as part of the business side of it,
15:39
like Brian was saying, from the creative side of it,
15:42
it comes down to just how we approach creative writing, right?
15:45
So when you're writing action thrillers,
15:47
there's a lot of models out there for how to do it
15:49
that date back to Ian Fleming and James Bond and all that.
15:53
From very early on what we decided,
15:57
both of us having brothers and sisters
15:59
that are still serving, we decided that while we want it,
16:03
you have to write an exciting novel, right?
16:04
It's got to have action.
16:05
If you wrote what it's really like for 30 days
16:08
on a deployment, unless you're with the JSOC unit,
16:10
it's going to be a lot of sitting around
16:12
and going to the chow on, nobody wants to read that book.
16:15
So you've got to have action and excitement.
16:17
But we wanted to frame it in a sense
16:21
that gives a realistic portrait of the men and women
16:24
that serve and of the families that support them back home.
16:29
And the way we do that is by trying to write the characters,
16:33
not necessarily the action thriller plot,
16:35
but the character and their responses to that
16:37
as realistically as we can.
16:39
And what I mean by that is there's always been a tendency
16:43
in special operation stuff, for example,
16:45
to have the lone wolf guy who is almost a superhero,
16:49
indestructible kind of guy.
16:51
And that's fun.
16:52
Look, I read those and I watch those movies
16:54
and I do enjoy them.
16:55
But we decided from the beginning
16:57
that we wanted to paint the characters
16:59
as the amalgam of the people that we have served with.
17:02
And what makes them so extraordinary,
17:04
and I've said this before
17:06
and people might be getting bored with it,
17:07
but is how ordinary they are.
17:09
What's extraordinary about the JSOC guys that I served with
17:12
is that they are ordinary guys back home.
17:14
They're taking the garbage down to the curb.
17:15
They're coaching their kids literally
17:17
when they can at time allows.
17:18
They're picking up milk on the way home.
17:20
They are ordinary men and women who do an extraordinary thing
17:23
because they're so driven by their love of their country,
17:25
their love of their family, their love of their brothers.
17:28
And so we try to paint that into the fiction
17:34
from the beginning that we're honoring them
17:36
through our storytelling by showing what they are like
17:39
in this incredible world in which they operate.
17:42
And then Brian, I'll let you talk about the other side
17:44
of it, what we do with the brand.
17:46
But I think that that's where it started.
17:48
Even what we do with the brand now
17:49
to help our fellow veterans all began with that idea
17:52
of honoring our fellow veterans and military members
17:56
through the writing.
17:57
- Yeah, 100% agree.
18:00
And then I think that the logical extension from that
18:03
is this element of presenting through character,
18:08
the principles, the life principles
18:11
and the motivational principles that we see
18:15
in those types of people.
18:17
The heroes that are serving,
18:19
they're also heroes in their daily lives.
18:21
So we're not nonfiction writers.
18:22
You've got your out there.
18:24
You've got your Tony Robbins and your Jordan Peterson
18:28
and James Clear.
18:29
These are people who are writing nonfiction
18:30
and on the speaker circuit.
18:33
And they're providing a valuable message
18:35
to help people get their life in order.
18:37
Jeff and I are providing entertainment,
18:39
but it's not mindless entertainment.
18:41
What we're doing is we're trying to paint a picture
18:43
of characters who are based on real people,
18:47
who are subjected to some incredibly stressful,
18:50
difficult situations where their morality
18:52
and their principles are tested and how do they respond.
18:56
And so through the adventure,
18:58
through the action adventure, through the thriller medium,
19:01
we still can provide a platform for,
19:05
hey, this is a good way to respond to stress.
19:07
This is how a hero would respond to stress.
19:10
This is how a hero reacts when his principles
19:12
or her morals are tested.
19:15
And so that, you know, in a weird sort of way,
19:20
you put down the book and you said,
19:22
wow, that was an exciting book.
19:23
I had a lot of fun reading that book,
19:27
but also I feel uplifted or I feel like I can go out there
19:32
and I can do what John Dempsey did or I can do it,
19:35
Chunk did or I can do what Jenna Dye Johnson did
19:38
when I'm put in a situation similar to that.
19:42
- Yeah, the thing I think that's important for that as well
19:44
is it gives depth to the characters as well
19:46
because for me, I'm not as much into the 1980s,
19:50
one man wrecking crew, like, oh, the guy,
19:52
the only thing that is, you know, has any depth with the guy
19:55
is the type of beef jerky he chose to put in his pack
19:58
before he ran out into the woods.
19:59
And I'm just like, yeah, you know,
20:00
I kind of like those stories where it's like,
20:02
you've got the super bad dude,
20:04
but that's got, you know, some other things involved,
20:06
which is certainly one of the things
20:07
that we'll talk about with Dark Intercept here in a second
20:09
before we get to the newest novel.
20:12
I just wanna ask another generic question
20:14
because I'm curious, I know it's generic,
20:16
but how do you come up with the ideas for your books?
20:20
You know, how do you decide how much real things
20:22
to sprinkle in along with all of the, you know,
20:24
fanciful, incredible things?
20:26
And then what does the research process look like?
20:28
'Cause you described your writing process,
20:30
but I'm sure to get a lot of these things
20:32
at least accurate enough to where they sound plausible,
20:36
it takes quite a bit of research.
20:37
So what does that process look like?
20:39
- Yeah, so I mean, I think the first thing
20:41
that every author worries about is this concept
20:44
called suspend your disbelief.
20:46
You don't want your reader in the middle of the book
20:48
to be like, oh man, like that's a bunch of BS.
20:52
Like that's not how it is, especially, you know,
20:54
when veterans are active duty military personnel
20:56
or reading our novels,
20:58
they're our client or they're our customer
21:01
that we want to make sure we get it right for them, right?
21:04
So authenticity has always been a big part of our brand.
21:08
And so part of that authenticity comes from the fact
21:11
that we're both veterans and we both serve.
21:13
And we both serve for engaging platforms and units.
21:17
And so we sort of understand what that life is like.
21:21
So because we lived it, we can write with authenticity.
21:24
And that's something that, you know,
21:26
you keyed on on those great books from the 80s, you know,
21:29
the Ludlum books and the Clancy books.
21:31
And Jeff and I read those too.
21:33
And those sucked us into the industry,
21:36
but those gentlemen did not serve.
21:38
So, you know, they didn't bring the same level of authenticity.
21:42
I think that we do and other veteran authors right now,
21:45
like Don Bentley and Ward Larson and Josh, you know,
21:48
we all bring that, I think, to the genre.
21:50
So that's the first part.
21:52
And then the second part is the research.
21:54
And I'll say it just briefly a word on that
21:56
and I'll hand it off to Jeff and he can continue on it.
21:59
But I think, you know, if you're an engaged American,
22:03
you're paying very close attention
22:05
to current events and geopolitical events.
22:08
And that's something that Jeff and I do.
22:10
And we talk about it.
22:11
And it's when we find an idea or something happens
22:15
that peaks our interest, that's the bunny hole.
22:18
That's when we start going down, okay, well, what if?
22:21
Would you agree with that, Jeff?
22:22
Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right.
22:23
A lot of the research is going on before the book even starts
22:26
just because we have an ongoing interest in world affairs
22:30
and geopolitics and military defense issues.
22:33
And so both of us continue to be well read.
22:35
We stay connected to the community.
22:37
We continue to read the defense journals.
22:39
And so we've sort of painted this picture
22:41
of almost professorial academic type fiction writers.
22:45
And I'm glad we did that because it's a total lie.
22:47
That's not who we are.
22:49
We're well-informed children.
22:51
So the reality how the sausage is made
22:54
is while we both are very engaged and keep that going,
22:58
there's still that child-like eight-year-old
23:01
in the backyard with a stick pretending
23:02
it's a rifle saying what if.
23:04
And that's, you know, you had asked,
23:06
part of your question was where the stories come from.
23:08
That's where the stories come from.
23:09
The stories come from having that information floating
23:12
in your head by being well-informed
23:14
and then having that child like, hey, what if this happened?
23:17
And so my favorite part of creating any new series
23:21
or any book within this series is that first few weeks, Brian,
23:25
when we're on the, he lives, you know,
23:27
we live 800 miles apart, 1,000 miles apart.
23:29
So this is all done remotely by Zoom and on phone.
23:31
When we're starting a project,
23:32
we have this really cool two weeks
23:35
where we are just those kids in the backyard.
23:37
And it starts with a very simple, what if question?
23:40
What if the tier one unit was wiped out,
23:43
like what happened in the very beginning of the tier one series?
23:46
What if, you know, the new generation of jihadi's
23:50
emerges with more technology, like in Sons of Valor
23:52
or what if there is a spiritual warfare element
23:55
like in Darkin or so?
23:56
So we start with this big, what if question?
23:58
But then the fun comes, it's like, what about this?
24:00
Oh, no, dude, what about this?
24:01
What about this?
24:02
And it's almost like two kids playing in the backyard.
24:04
And it is so much fun and it is so efficient
24:08
because back to the co-authoring thing, you know,
24:11
the one real advantage of co-authoring
24:13
with someone who really does divide and conquer with you
24:16
is efficiency.
24:16
Like we are constantly moving forward.
24:19
There's no such thing as writer's block for us
24:21
because writer's block, the cure is a phone call away.
24:24
And five seconds later, you're on a whole new sprint
24:27
to something really exciting.
24:29
So the stories come from the what if childlike wonder.
24:32
And I think the research is ongoing.
24:33
Of course, in any good book, we also
24:35
have to sit and Google stuff and maybe turn
24:38
to some other sources.
24:39
We've been really blessed now that we've
24:41
been blessed with some success.
24:43
We have a little more opportunity
24:45
to reach out to other resources that we didn't have before.
24:47
And we always were able to make phone calls to guys
24:49
back in the teams that we still are connected to or whatever.
24:52
But for example, in the collateral book,
24:56
book six in the tier one series, we
24:58
had this amazing opportunity to connect with a guy
25:01
in the Pentagon and say, hey, do you
25:03
know anyone who skippered an Arlie Burke?
25:06
And sure enough, he did.
25:08
And he connected us.
25:09
And we're able to send him stuff.
25:10
And he was-- got on the phone with us and said, great story.
25:13
But that's not how we would do it.
25:15
And so there is a little bit of that.
25:17
But I think the most fun part is just
25:19
that childlike, what if coming up with an exciting story
25:23
and then doing the research to frame it up
25:25
in a way that's palatable.
25:26
That's really cool.
25:27
Well, I feel like all that sets the foundation
25:29
for the newest novel, which if you guys are paying attention,
25:32
this book came out today as of the release of this episode,
25:34
Dark Intercept.
25:35
What are you doing?
25:36
Why haven't you gone and bought this book yet?
25:37
Go buy the book.
25:38
Do the show notes.
25:39
We'll be able to take care of it.
25:40
But we'll kind of split up this first part here.
25:42
So Brian, I'll just ask you--
25:44
this is apparently book one of the Shepherds series.
25:47
OK, so what is the Shepherds series?
25:50
And I guess what can readers expect
25:51
without being too much of a spoiler?
25:53
What can readers expect with this three book series?
25:56
So the Shepherds series is born from this idea
26:01
that what if the covert operations teams out there
26:08
at the pointy tip of the spear, what
26:10
if firepower was not enough to face the enemy?
26:15
What if the enemy had a multi-pronged attack?
26:19
And part of that was flesh and bone and bullets and gun
26:24
powder, but another component of that attack
26:26
was spiritual and the corruption, moral corruption
26:32
and depravity and all these negative things
26:36
that go along with violence, precede violence
26:40
and proceed violence.
26:42
And that was sort of the germ.
26:44
That was what Jeff was talking about, that last answer.
26:46
That was the what-of question.
26:48
What if firepower is not enough to win the battle?
26:52
And what if there was a group of men and women
26:55
who realized this?
26:56
How would they tackle this problem?
26:59
And so the Shepherds organization--
27:02
and I don't know if this is too much of a spoiler--
27:04
but the Shepherds organization was designed specifically
27:09
to sort of operate not in the shadows.
27:12
That's not the right metaphor.
27:13
I would say they're operating shoulder to shoulder
27:17
with all the other traditional intelligence
27:22
community and military industrial complex.
27:25
They're there alongside.
27:27
You just don't realize that they have another data stream
27:31
and some more influence going on.
27:35
OK.
27:35
Well, we're going to turn this over to Jeff now, I guess.
27:38
So without spoiling too much, however, I'm big on spoilers.
27:40
I love it.
27:41
I love when people get the endings ruined.
27:43
Like, I'm the guy that walked in and told everyone
27:45
that Thanos ended the world with that.
27:47
And he was like, guys, he snapped his fingers
27:49
and Spider-Man disappeared.
27:51
So I'm totally down with that.
27:52
But without spoiling too much, Jeff,
27:54
we'll put the onus on you.
27:56
What can you tell us about what readers can expect
27:58
with Dark Intercept?
27:59
Well, like Brian was saying, this was a new direction for us.
28:04
Well, a slightly new direction.
28:06
Think of it as a side road that's
28:08
paralleling our interstate of our other stuff, maybe.
28:10
Because we've been writing action thrillers.
28:13
We've been writing covert operations
28:14
thrillers for a few years now, and with a lot of success.
28:18
So I think that if I was going to say something to the readers,
28:21
I would say, you're going to get all that.
28:24
Expect that.
28:25
We still have Jedediah Johnson's a former Navy SEAL.
28:28
He's wounded.
28:29
He's on the eve of medical retirement
28:31
when he gets called back into service in this covert thing
28:34
to rescue the daughter, a 12-year-old girl who's
28:38
the daughter of a high school friend of his.
28:40
And there's a whole social component to that.
28:43
But he is haunted by these demons from his past.
28:47
And in this case, it's almost more literal
28:49
in that he had an experience in high school that exposed him
28:54
to true, pure evil.
28:55
And those that have served overseas in the last 20 years,
28:58
all of us have seen real evil.
29:01
And it changes your perspective.
29:03
It's different than this country wants
29:06
to take over this country for economic reasons.
29:08
This is the kind of evil that Brian
29:11
used the word depravity.
29:12
It's beyond even that.
29:14
It's evil.
29:15
And it's hard to reconcile that as a human, especially
29:19
as a Christian, and say, that's just man.
29:23
There's something that just feels darker and bigger than that.
29:26
And so that's the premise that we tried to weave through this.
29:29
This idea that all of these horrible things
29:33
you see from World War II, and Hitler, and terrorism,
29:36
and bin Laden, and all of these things,
29:39
the behind the curtain driving force
29:42
is this evil force that wants to separate man from God.
29:46
Now, we don't write this as a religious book by any stretch.
29:51
This is not designed to make converts of people.
29:55
But it's an interesting question, isn't it?
29:57
It's an interesting premise.
29:58
And put into the context of an action thriller,
30:02
we're hoping that people will enjoy the thrill ride of the book,
30:06
like they do with most of our books,
30:07
but also maybe have a conversation at the end,
30:10
because it makes them think about spiritual warfare.
30:13
What do you do with crisis and faith?
30:14
Something that's important to me in the ministry that I lead.
30:18
I work with so many men who thought they had a faith.
30:21
They saw these horrible things, and they went,
30:24
it's hard to rectify the existence of a God who
30:27
loves us with what I saw in the deserts of Iraq
30:31
or in the mountains of the Hindu Kush.
30:32
Like, if he is out there, he doesn't
30:36
seem like he really cares about us.
30:37
And so the idea of spiritual warfare,
30:39
the idea of crisis and faith, which we have in our Jedediah
30:41
Johnson character, he's got to reconnect with his faith
30:44
to be able to overcome this evil and rescue this girl.
30:47
Those were all really fun elements
30:49
to combine both as writers, because what amazing fodder
30:54
for creative storytelling, but also as men of faith and family
30:59
men to be able to sort of put those questions forward
31:01
and have in our hero, Jedediah, a guy with a past
31:04
and weaknesses who has to fight his way back to that.
31:07
So hopefully that was vague enough that it didn't spoil
31:10
the story, but it does show that there's a little bit
31:13
different thread that we've pulled through this book
31:15
than others, but we are so excited about this series,
31:18
because we've been talking about it for years,
31:20
being able to combine all of these elements
31:22
into our storytelling.
31:23
- Well, and just by virtue of the amount of time
31:25
that we have, and there's only so much we can talk about,
31:27
I do want to dig into a lot of that a lot more deeply.
31:30
So we're not going to really be able to get into the tier one
31:32
series or the Sons of Aller series or the W.E.B.
31:35
Griffin rogue asset stuff.
31:36
So guys, all that will be in the show notes,
31:38
and obviously there's some great stuff there.
31:40
All I can tell you is that you should probably go read,
31:42
you should probably go check those out,
31:43
but I do want to dig more into these themes
31:45
that came up when both of y'all were talking.
31:47
So elements of faith, if you will,
31:49
that's kind of one of the themes
31:50
that undergirds dark intercept.
31:52
So can you give me a little bit more on that?
31:55
I'd like to hear from both of your perspectives,
31:57
because as I told you before, I like seeing depth
32:00
in my characters, whether I'm watching a movie
32:01
or reading a book, because I don't read a whole lot of fiction,
32:04
so I don't like to waste my time.
32:05
But the element of faith is not really something
32:08
that I can recall getting from a book in the genre.
32:12
Like I can't think of one, I'm sure I could,
32:14
if you gave me an hour, but I just can't think of one
32:15
off top of my head.
32:16
So why does elements of faith play such a pivotal role
32:20
for dark intercept and eventually the entire Shepherd series?
32:23
I mean, I mean, there's two answers to that question.
32:25
One is why we personally wanted to mold it into the book,
32:28
but also why Tindale House wanted to have a book like this.
32:32
I think that we live in a world right now
32:34
with all that's going on that is thirsty for some
32:39
of that deeper elements even in their fiction.
32:43
And so if you think about Christian fiction,
32:47
you don't think about tier one or Sons of Valor
32:50
or even dark intercept, right?
32:51
You think about Amish romance or the girl in the wagon
32:54
with the bonnet or--
32:55
Or the left behind or whatever.
32:57
The left behind, which is an amazing series,
32:59
but you think of those sorts of things.
33:01
You don't think about Ludlam and Clancy and Don Bentley
33:06
and Mark Cameron and Mark Greedy.
33:08
That's not who you think of.
33:11
And I think that what's been fun to watch in the Christian
33:14
fiction market is that shift where they're saying,
33:17
you know what, we don't have to be so maternalistic.
33:21
We don't have to protect our poor innocent readers
33:25
from this violence and language and stuff like that.
33:28
Because, you know, I'm a Christian man,
33:30
but I went and saw the last born movie.
33:32
I watched all the mission, but like I live in this world.
33:35
I'm in the military.
33:36
I want to be entertained in a realistic way.
33:39
And I see the Christian fiction market identifying that.
33:42
And they are like, oh, maybe that's
33:44
why only 4% of our readers are men
33:47
because they don't want to read Amish romance.
33:49
And so it was cool that our desire
33:51
to tell this story sort of intersected
33:53
with this change in the Christian fiction market,
33:57
where they're like, look, we want to just tell
33:58
good entertaining stories that are not faith-centric,
34:02
but, you know, have a faith element.
34:04
You know, it doesn't have to be ministerial.
34:06
We're not trying to change lives.
34:07
We want to entertain, but we want to do it
34:08
within a Christian context.
34:10
And so our passion for this story intersecting
34:13
at a time in the market where they were looking
34:14
to grow that was perfect.
34:17
And so our amazing editor, Karen Watson,
34:19
who's actually the publisher for fiction at Tindale,
34:22
she and her boss just knew that that was avoided
34:25
in the market and we're seeking out stuff like this.
34:27
And so it gave us the perfect platform and opportunity
34:31
to be able to do that in terms of personally
34:33
why we run and write it.
34:34
It's everything we said before.
34:35
It's a part of our lives.
34:36
And, you know, we like to write things
34:38
that are part of the everyday life experience
34:40
just like we did in tier one,
34:41
just like we did in Sons of Aller.
34:43
It's another element,
34:44
but it's just as real for people as anything else.
34:47
- What about you, Brian?
34:48
- I think one of the things is that, you know,
34:52
your faith is not this static thing.
34:55
It's not, you know, when you're a kid,
34:57
you're dragged along to church with your parents
35:01
depending on what, you know, faith they are.
35:04
And you're probably not mature enough
35:06
to even really contemplate the questions.
35:09
So you're just sort of along for the ride.
35:11
You get exposed to some ritual, some dogma,
35:14
hopefully some meaningful contents, you know.
35:18
And you start thinking about it.
35:20
But I don't think that it's until you're an adult
35:24
and you've started to be put into situations
35:26
where you have your morality.
35:29
Your morality evolves with you as a person
35:32
because your morality has to be tested
35:34
and you have to decide what you think is right and wrong.
35:37
And so I feel like this idea that your faith
35:41
is this one thing your whole life is not true.
35:44
And so we tried to reflect that in Jed's character.
35:48
I mean, he thought his faith was one thing.
35:51
His faith was challenged.
35:54
He became disillusioned.
35:55
He drifted from his faith.
35:58
And, you know, nobody could tell him
36:01
how his relationship with God was supposed to be.
36:04
He has to figure it out for himself.
36:07
And that's the tough thing, right?
36:09
You have to figure it out for yourself.
36:11
So with Jed, that's a very, very important part of this story
36:16
is him finding his way back to faith
36:19
and maybe redefining what he understood.
36:22
Now we use a lot of metaphor
36:23
and we're using this supernatural elements
36:26
to sort of, you know, take this from a,
36:30
you know, you are gonna have to suspend your disbelief
36:32
in part to this book.
36:33
We're gonna take it up a notch.
36:35
But that's by design.
36:37
That's to sort of get you into the adventure
36:40
and make you think about things in a way
36:42
that you haven't thought about before.
36:43
But at its core, you know, the true message is, you know,
36:47
faith is not static, faith is not easy.
36:51
It's something you have to work on
36:53
and it's something you have to figure out for yourself.
36:55
But the Shepherds organization teaches Jed that,
37:00
yes, you have to figure it out for yourself,
37:02
but you are not alone.
37:03
And Jed thought he was alone.
37:06
- Right, so even for me to kind of take it up a notch
37:08
from just when you can talk about faith pretty easily, right?
37:11
But then when you start talking about spiritual warfare,
37:13
that's something entirely different.
37:15
So spiritual warfare is also a theme of the book,
37:17
but seemingly, right?
37:18
Just reading the tea leaves here.
37:20
People in general, especially in the church,
37:22
want nothing to do with that subject, right?
37:24
It's like, if you talk about sex, everybody shows up.
37:26
If you talk about money or spiritual warfare,
37:28
nobody shows up, right?
37:30
And so it's just, it's one of those things
37:32
that's just really hard for people to talk about
37:34
because it's weird and it doesn't make us feel cute.
37:37
It's the reason why we treat Jesus
37:38
like he's this blonde hair, blue-eyed, soft-featured white guy
37:42
as opposed to a rough, gruff, Middle Eastern Jew.
37:45
It's kind of that same thing.
37:47
It's like, we don't want the lion of Judah, that's scary, right?
37:50
We want Lamb of God, we want Jesus to give us a little kiss
37:52
on our nose as we move on without our day.
37:54
So I guess for both of you, why is spiritual warfare
37:58
a central thing because you could have left it faith-based
38:01
without going to spiritual warfare?
38:02
- Yeah, well, I think for us, it was just what you're saying.
38:06
Both of us are in church and we're in community
38:09
with people who don't want to talk about money,
38:13
they don't, you know, you almost quoted
38:15
Pastor Craig Altman who leads Grace Family Church
38:17
where I serve, you know, no one's showing up
38:20
for the money talk, no one's showing up for the spirit
38:23
but we, but he still gives them every year.
38:25
And I think that it sort of ties back
38:28
to what Brian was saying.
38:29
You know, your faith is one thing when everything's good
38:33
and it's another thing when everything is not so good.
38:35
And so how do you challenge your faith?
38:38
You challenge your faith by growing
38:39
through personal experience, just like Brian was implying.
38:43
And part of that unmasks these unseen forces.
38:46
The, you know, when you have had experiences
38:48
that you can't explain, when you have seen pure evil
38:50
or you've seen things that are absolutely miraculous,
38:54
then it becomes a little bit more difficult
38:56
to deny this spiritual warfare,
38:59
this spiritual warfare is really nothing more
39:02
than this unseen, relatively unseen battle
39:05
between good and evil, right?
39:06
How do you believe in one without the other?
39:09
Church loves talking about God
39:10
and Jesus with the, with the perm and the lamb
39:12
but they hate talking about the devil, right?
39:14
For that because it's just uncomfortable
39:16
and now it got weird, now it got weird.
39:18
And so what we tried to do here was we try
39:22
to put those elements in in a way
39:24
that would be exciting but palatable.
39:28
And so yeah, there are some supernatural elements
39:30
in this book and we were very intentional in doing that
39:33
because as writers, it elevates the narrative
39:36
and the excitement and, you know, we have a lot of license
39:40
but we worked really hard to frame
39:42
all of the spiritual warfare elements
39:44
as crazy as they are in this book in a biblical context.
39:48
So you won't find anything in the book
39:50
as outrageous as some of it looks
39:54
that you can't find scripture to support it
39:56
at some level.
39:57
I'm not saying we didn't take some license we did
39:59
but we actually worked with Pastor Chris Bonham
40:01
at Grace Family Church with Father Kevin Yarnell
40:05
who's a priest near where I live
40:08
and we had them look at it and say,
40:10
is there anything here that's outrageous?
40:11
And they're like, yes, there's a lot that's outrageous
40:15
but you can find a scripture that at least supports all of it
40:19
and that was our goal.
40:20
We know we're writing fiction
40:22
but we wanted it to have at least ties to scripture
40:25
so that it would be true to biblical truths
40:28
about spiritual warfare.
40:29
So I think it's unfortunate that people run away
40:33
from the talks about spiritual warfare in church.
40:36
So maybe this is a way to sneak it in, right?
40:39
Not to trick people into believing or not believing anything
40:43
but isn't it always good to be able to have a conversation?
40:45
And in fact, Mike Moore, another pastor friend of ours
40:48
has actually even, he liked the book so much
40:51
that he wrote a discussion guide for men's groups
40:55
to use the book as a launch pad to do a three or four week
41:00
hour long each series on spiritual warfare
41:03
taking things from the book and saying,
41:05
well, what's the truth about that?
41:06
So that was really cool to us when Mike offered to do that.
41:10
They was like, okay, maybe we got it a little bit right
41:13
or something.
41:14
But in the end, it's an exciting ride, we hope
41:18
but we wanted to have some truth in there
41:20
at least to the level that it makes people talk.
41:22
- And Brian, what would you say
41:23
that whole spiritual warfare aspect of the book?
41:25
- Yeah, I think it's a combination of metaphor
41:32
and also reality in the sense of, like Jeff said,
41:40
I mean, we're treading the line here
41:43
but what we're trying to do is provide a vehicle
41:48
for people to think about topics like he said
41:51
that are maybe uncomfortable.
41:53
Right now, I think it's tough as in America,
41:57
I think everywhere you learn,
41:58
everywhere you turn, people are trying to tell you
42:01
what to think.
42:02
It's very in your face right now.
42:04
You need to think this.
42:06
This person said this and it means XYZ.
42:09
You're getting it at work, you're getting it on cable news,
42:13
you're getting it on television shows,
42:15
you're getting on social media,
42:17
maybe you're getting it in your church.
42:19
Everybody's telling you what to think.
42:21
We're not trying to tell you what to think in this book.
42:23
We're trying to take you on a journey
42:25
and you can decide what you want to think.
42:28
And that's very, very important for us.
42:30
And I think, you know,
42:33
another character who's very important in this story
42:36
is a 12-year-old Sarah Beth Yarnell and she has a gift,
42:41
but she's also, her gift is also a metaphor
42:45
and we picked this age very intentionally.
42:47
You know, have you ever noticed how kids,
42:50
you know, I'll say this to Joe, kids can sense evil,
42:52
but you know, kids, because they're not jaded and cynical,
42:57
they can tell when somebody's a bad person right away.
43:00
And Jeff and I are both fathers and, you know,
43:03
I can think back on many occasions
43:05
where one of my young daughters would say,
43:07
he wasn't a very nice man, you know,
43:09
they can pick up on it immediately.
43:12
And so what is it about that innocence,
43:14
about that child's perspective that we lose
43:19
as we become an adult?
43:20
So this idea of Sarah Beth and the watchers
43:24
and the skills that they have sort of
43:27
is to get you thinking about, you know,
43:30
why is it that I fail to recognize bad people
43:33
or evil deeds or how is it that evil can veil itself
43:38
in, you know, politics or veil itself in a message
43:44
that, you know, on the surface maybe seems correct,
43:48
but underneath, you know, in my heart,
43:50
I think that's wrong, we're not gonna tell you
43:53
what those things are, but I think now more than ever,
43:56
we need to be thinking about those.
43:58
We need to have the self-confidence to say,
44:01
just 'cause somebody is broadcasting a message at me
44:04
a hundred times a day, if it doesn't sit right with me,
44:09
then maybe that message is wrong.
44:12
- Yeah, I think that's an interesting thing
44:14
that most people aren't even gonna have
44:16
that internal dialogue right now because
44:18
we like to find our team and then we like to listen
44:20
to the podcast and read the books from that team
44:23
so that the next time we run into somebody
44:24
from the other team, we can just dunk all over 'em, right?
44:27
Like I had a conversation with Mike Ritalin
44:29
and I loved the conversation I had with him.
44:31
You know, we talked for three hours
44:32
and he considers himself to be an agnostic
44:34
and I'm a man of faith, a gospel-driven human being.
44:37
And the only people that got mad at me
44:39
for the interview were Christians
44:41
because they wanted me to dunk on him, right?
44:43
They wanted me to pull out all the apologetics tricks
44:46
and just really destroy this guy's arguments, right?
44:49
But it's like, I wanted to go into this argument
44:51
with the Greg Cocle attitude.
44:53
If I just wanna put a rock in his shoe, right?
44:55
I'm not gonna expect for there to be this, you know,
44:57
tear-filled conversion just because I sat and talked
44:59
to this guy for a few hours and interacted with him afterwards.
45:02
So it's that internal dialogue that I think is important.
45:05
But as we wrap up the discussion of the book here,
45:07
Jeff, I just wanna be, I think it's very important
45:10
to talk about this 'cause both of you
45:11
brought this up but Jeff, you brought it up more
45:13
so you get to take this question, Jeff, you win.
45:15
But this book touches on the nature
45:18
and the reality of evil, okay?
45:20
Another subject matter that people don't like dealing with
45:23
because I feel like we have so many people,
45:24
societally, that are just like, nope,
45:26
nope, bad things can't happen.
45:27
I don't need to learn how to fight
45:29
because I'll never be in a fight
45:30
or if that happens, I'll just call the police
45:32
or the military can save me
45:33
or the government can save me or something like that.
45:35
People don't really want to reckon with the fact
45:37
that evil is all around us.
45:39
It is palpable and you can almost pull it out of the air.
45:43
It's so thick.
45:44
So Jeff, why does this book also touch
45:46
on the nature and reality of evil?
45:48
Specifically, not just tangentially
45:50
because you're describing good guys and bad guys.
45:52
- Yeah, so that was something from the very beginning.
45:55
You know, you look at the title of the series,
45:56
it's the shepherds.
45:58
You know, and in the Christian community,
46:01
we think of shepherds.
46:02
You think of the scripture of Jesus referring to him
46:04
as the shepherd of sending the disciples out
46:07
as shepherds in the flock.
46:08
I mean, the metaphor is very powerful.
46:10
But somehow we grew away from the idea
46:14
of what we're shepherding the flock away from.
46:17
Like you don't need a shepherd unless there's a wolf, right?
46:21
If there's no wolves, what do you need a sheepdog for?
46:24
And somehow, I really like what you just described.
46:27
Somehow we've evolved past this understanding
46:31
that these things are real.
46:32
I like what Brian said about Sarah Beth
46:35
because her character is really the linchpin
46:37
between those two issues.
46:39
Because that childlike faith is very powerful
46:42
in its ability to show us what our relationship
46:45
with God should be.
46:46
I think we've all seen that in our children
46:47
or we've seen it in other ways.
46:49
But it also is that linchpin towards being able
46:54
to see and understand evil.
46:55
Why are they so good at it?
46:57
I think the answer is because no one told them
46:58
they weren't supposed to be.
46:59
But we have been taught that that's silly,
47:02
that's ridiculous.
47:03
Oh, don't be crazy.
47:04
That's a thousand year old thinking.
47:06
Then you go to Iraq and you find a place
47:10
where they saw the heads off children
47:11
in front of their parents.
47:12
And you're like, that's not normal behavior.
47:15
That's not what normal humans do.
47:17
I don't care about the, you know, man has a bad side.
47:20
That's more than a bad side.
47:22
Like that's the evil beyond our ability to comprehend.
47:25
And so I think that dealing with the nature of evil
47:29
does two things.
47:30
Like a lot of the things we've talked about.
47:32
One, it provides tremendous fodder as a creative writer
47:35
to tell an exciting story.
47:37
But two, it makes you, like Brian was saying,
47:40
question what you believe.
47:42
And that's the element we wanted to add to this book.
47:44
We wanted people to enjoy the book and get to the end
47:47
and have questions about what they believe
47:49
about the nature of evil.
47:51
You can't fight an enemy that you don't believe in, right?
47:54
You can't go to Iraq or Afghanistan as a special operator
47:58
and fight an enemy that you haven't trained to understand
48:01
and how they work and how they think and how they fight.
48:04
You can't partner with communities and your fight against them.
48:07
So how can we expect that as, you know, men of faith,
48:11
we can be leading our families and our communities
48:14
in a spiritual warfare.
48:15
We don't acknowledge the existence of the other combat.
48:18
So that was the element that we wanted to put in here.
48:21
And I think we found the right balance
48:23
of not being too heavy handed but keeping it exciting.
48:25
But hopefully it makes people think.
48:27
- Well, and the thing that I love about it
48:29
is that you're making people reckon with depravity.
48:32
Like real depravity.
48:33
So I love the book by Holly McKay
48:35
called Only Cry for the Living.
48:36
She was a journalist on the ground
48:38
whenever Isis was taking over parts of the Middle East.
48:40
And the stories she described are easy for people
48:43
to look away from.
48:44
These are not stories that I would really, you know,
48:46
talk about with my wife.
48:47
But the one most egregious that pops to the top of my head
48:50
is Isis.
48:51
They got a piece of sheet metal and they put it outside
48:54
and they put some sort of a flame underneath it
48:56
and they were cooking infants, okay?
48:59
Now, sure, that's fodder for a story, right?
49:01
Is fodder for a novel?
49:03
Can you think of something more depraved?
49:06
And so for us as Christians, when we're looking at the world
49:09
and we're trying to reckon with the world
49:11
and apply the gospel to the world,
49:13
that's the world that needs to be applied,
49:15
that it needs to be applied to.
49:16
'Cause those babies had the Amago Day.
49:17
They had the image of God written on them, right?
49:20
So did the men that were cooking the babies, right?
49:23
So yes, I believe that those people
49:25
should meet a very, very rough end to their lives
49:28
and that we should send them to their maker quickly
49:31
to where they can have that discussion amongst themselves.
49:33
But before I start getting preachy,
49:35
I know we're running out of time here.
49:37
So again, we're not gonna be able to talk about Tier One
49:39
or Sons of Aller or the W.E.B. Griffin Rogue Asset Novels.
49:42
All that is going to be in the show notes guys.
49:44
You should go check that out.
49:45
But as we wrap up here, I love doing this
49:48
and I think this will be great with you guys.
49:49
I do a segment towards the end of my shows
49:51
called What Would You Say to Someone That Said?
49:53
Okay, this is our lightning round, right?
49:55
So I'm gonna say, what would you say to someone
49:57
that said and I'm gonna fill in the blank?
49:59
It might be funny, it might be a big topic,
50:01
it might be a critical thing.
50:02
But you have 30 seconds or less to give me your answer.
50:05
And I will get a buzzer, right?
50:07
If you start bloviating and going crazy,
50:09
I will give you the buzzer.
50:11
But what I'm gonna do is I got about-
50:12
- That's mostly for me.
50:14
- Hey, but that's okay, that's okay.
50:15
I'll just give you the big X or whatever.
50:17
So with the first and last one,
50:19
we'll have you both answer
50:20
and then we'll kind of switch off in between.
50:21
So you guys up for it?
50:22
- Yeah. - Yeah.
50:24
- All right, so here's the first one here
50:26
and we'll have Brian answer first and then we'll have Jeff.
50:28
What would you say to someone that said,
50:30
I want to write a novel?
50:32
- I would say do your homework first.
50:35
Talk to other authors because I can't tell you
50:38
how many people tell me, I'm working on a book,
50:41
but they never finish it.
50:42
So if you wanna write a book, you wanna write a novel,
50:46
sit down and write every single day
50:48
and then talk to somebody else
50:49
who's already done it and get some advice.
50:50
Jeff?
50:51
- I agree with all of that
50:52
and I would add write your book, start to finish.
50:55
The people that don't write the book
50:57
and it's been seven years
50:58
is because they're trying to make every sentence perfect
51:01
from the first pass.
51:02
Novels become novels in editing and rewrites.
51:06
So if you wanna write a book, you sit down
51:08
and every day you move the ball down the field.
51:09
If you're writing three or four pages a day,
51:11
you can't not write that book in seven or eight months.
51:14
So that's the way you do it.
51:16
- All right, here we go.
51:17
Brian, this one's for you.
51:18
What would you say to someone that said,
51:20
I hate writing, but I'm good at it?
51:22
- Then I'd say then that's not the business for you.
51:27
So you should only write if you love writing
51:31
and you love storytelling and expressing your ideas.
51:33
I think all writers have to be readers first
51:37
and that's how you learn the trade of writing
51:41
but how can you be good at something that you don't like?
51:43
I don't know.
51:44
- All right, next one for you, Jeff.
51:46
What would you say to someone that said,
51:48
"It's hard for me to follow fiction."
51:51
- I think you're reading the wrong fiction.
51:53
So there is so much out there,
51:56
there is so many genres from things
51:58
that are pulled right out of the headlines
52:00
to supernatural thrillers
52:02
that are just completely out there in bizarre.
52:05
You keep looking because you will find something.
52:07
You've got something you're interested in.
52:08
Find a fiction writer who writes that
52:10
because fiction mirrors real life when you do it right.
52:14
- All right, you guys are doing just fine.
52:16
This is great.
52:17
All right, Brian, next one for you.
52:17
What would you say to someone that said,
52:19
spy novels are just too repetitive and formulaic?
52:23
- I'd say then you've never read an Andrew's Wilson novel.
52:27
- There you go.
52:28
Hey, you can just leave the answer there.
52:30
I will allow it because that's a great answer.
52:32
Jeff, this one's for you.
52:33
What would you say to someone that said,
52:34
"Christians shouldn't write books
52:36
that have violent or dark themes."
52:38
- I would say that you're living in a fantasy world
52:40
because Christians and non-Christians live in a world
52:44
and we're reflecting the world we live in.
52:46
If you are gonna couch everything
52:48
underneath some maternal veil,
52:51
then you're A, not gonna be that entertaining,
52:53
but B, you're not gonna be able to send
52:54
whatever message it is.
52:55
If they don't read your book 'cause it's not interesting,
52:57
then whatever message you're trying to share gets lost.
53:01
- Brian, next one for you.
53:02
What would you say to someone that said,
53:03
"I wonder if Andrew's and Wilson hate each other sometimes."
53:07
- I would say, what would ever lead you to that opinion?
53:11
Look at us.
53:12
We just exude joy and brotherhood.
53:16
- Yeah, but you know people are watching,
53:18
so I'm wondering what's gonna happen right after this.
53:20
Like whenever I hit the stop recording button,
53:22
it's gonna be like, "Why'd you say that?
53:23
You're so stupid.
53:24
Why'd you do that?
53:25
You're just like my father."
53:26
Like, "Hey, there's a lot of options here."
53:27
So I'm assuming you guys are friends,
53:29
but I'm assuming that 800 miles of separation
53:31
does help from time to time as well.
53:32
All right, Jeff, this is the last solo one here.
53:35
What would you say to someone that said,
53:36
"Andrew's and Wilson need to stop writing about seals
53:39
so much and start writing about other special operators."
53:41
Like the force, Green Beret, Marine, Recon, et cetera.
53:45
- I would say that that's probably not an unfair thing to say.
53:49
We do write about what we know
53:50
and I spent my time in Naval Special Warfare,
53:52
but keep reading because we have been growing our brand.
53:55
When you read Webb Griffin's rogue asset,
53:59
you're gonna find way fewer Navy seals
54:01
you're gonna find a lot of other.
54:03
We have a Marine special operator
54:06
as our main character there, so stick with us.
54:09
Don't give up.
54:10
- Well, apparently seals can't do anything
54:12
after they get out of the seals other than write books.
54:15
Apparently that's the only thing they're good at
54:16
is kind of what I'm saying.
54:17
So all right, this is the last one
54:19
and it's gonna be for both of you.
54:20
So Brian first and then Jeff.
54:22
What would you say to someone that said,
54:24
"I haven't read a book since high school
54:26
and I don't plan to."
54:27
- I would say now's the time to start
54:31
because the industry and the town has never been better.
54:35
This is the, when you are bombarded with television
54:40
where you don't have any control
54:42
and ability to use your imagination,
54:44
now's the time to dive into a book
54:47
because it's an experience
54:49
that's completely different from television.
54:51
- All right, Jeff, close us out.
54:52
- I will say that, you know, I'm willing to accept
54:55
that there are readers and non-readers,
54:57
but there is a book out there for everybody.
55:00
So I'm not, you may never become that guy
55:02
that reads three books a week, that's okay,
55:04
but find something because you gotta let your imagination
55:07
run free so every now and then.
55:09
- Absolutely, that's one of the dumbest things
55:12
I can hear a man say is I don't need to read a book,
55:14
what's a book gonna give me and I just,
55:15
I don't understand that at all, but guys,
55:17
we've gone everywhere in this conversation.
55:19
We didn't get to talk about the other series
55:20
as much as I would have liked, but I'm glad we got to spend
55:22
as much time on "Dark Intercept",
55:24
but is there anything else either one of you
55:25
wanna get off your chest?
55:27
- Only thing I wanna say is,
55:29
please check out our website if you have the time,
55:31
Andrews-Wilson.com.
55:33
Not only do we have our books there,
55:35
we also have links to other authors and our partners,
55:38
organizations that are run, founded and run by veterans,
55:43
supporting the veterans' small business community
55:45
is one of our missions, so please go there,
55:48
check it out, check out the products,
55:50
bone frog, coffee, bottle, preacher, combat flags,
55:53
these are all great organizations.
55:54
- Yeah, I'll make sure all that's in the show notes.
55:56
What about you, Jeff, anything else?
55:57
- Yeah, I mean, just to echo what he's saying,
55:59
what we try to do with our platform
56:01
is make the world a little bit better.
56:02
What else is there that you can do,
56:04
and one of our passions is to lift up our fellow veterans.
56:07
If you're a fellow veteran and you need a hand up,
56:10
you didn't leave all your teammates behind
56:12
when you left the military, everybody's still out there,
56:14
so reach out, and if it needs to be to us,
56:16
we're here, we're ready to respond.
56:18
- We'll make sure that we can facilitate that.
56:21
Brian Andrews and Jeffrey Wilson,
56:23
thank you for coming on Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
56:26
- Love to be in here.
56:27
- Thanks for having us.
56:29
- There you go, guys, I hope you enjoyed the interview
56:30
with Andrews and Wilson.
56:31
I know I had a great time with those guys,
56:32
and we're probably gonna be doing more stuff with them
56:34
in the future, so buckle in for that.
56:35
But before we let you go,
56:36
we are gonna do a quick resilience boost.
56:37
As you know, by now, Add Undaunted Life,
56:39
our mission is equipping men to push back darkness,
56:41
specifically, we do that by providing content
56:43
like this podcast and these interviews
56:45
that help you forge spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
56:48
So here are the links I've got for you today.
56:49
I've got the links to the Andrews and Wilson website,
56:52
Amazon, Facebook, and Twitter pages.
56:54
Those are gonna be the best way to connect with those guys
56:56
and stay up to date on their information.
56:58
All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to the podcast.
56:59
We do appreciate it.
57:00
Wherever you're listening to this,
57:01
please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive review.
57:04
If you wanna come speak live at your event
57:05
or on your podcast, you shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life,
57:09
that's i-n-f-o, @undaunted.life.
57:11
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok and like us on Facebook
57:13
and you can check out our website for everything else,
57:15
including how to donate to keep more content
57:17
like this coming your way.
57:18
Just go to www.undaunted.life
57:20
and we want to thank the band August Burns Red
57:22
for allowing us to use their music for our content.
57:24
The intro outro track on this podcast
57:25
is their song "Cutting the Ties,"
57:27
which is off their 10th anniversary
57:28
re-recording of their album "Leveler."
57:30
The links are in the description.
57:32
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
57:34
Remember, keep pushing back darkness,
57:37
keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience,
57:40
and keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
57:43
(upbeat music)
57:45
♪ I know I live, there's a heart in life ♪
57:49
♪ I know you want, it's a sign ♪
57:52
♪ It's a vision, it's a virtue ♪
57:57
♪ You are very void ♪
58:10
(dramatic music)