198 - MICHELLE BLACK | A Gold Star Widow's Fight For The Truth

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0:29 This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.

0:51 I'm your host Kyle Thompson.

0:52 Let's get into it.

0:53 Hi guys, today I've got a special interview for you and that is with Michelle Black.

0:57 She is a gold star widow and she became that on October the 4th of 2017 when her husband,

1:02 a green beret, was killed in an ambush by terrorist militants near the Niger-Molly border.

1:07 So she actually wrote a book called Sacrifice, a gold star widows fight for the truth.

1:12 So here's some things about this.

1:13 We're releasing this episode on Memorial Day.

1:15 I know for a lot of us Memorial Day is just a three day weekend.

1:18 It's barbecues, it's tank tops, going to the pool and all that.

1:21 And all that's fine and well.

1:23 But there are a lot of people that are in pain on a day like today.

1:26 And every year I encourage you guys and I do the Murph workout.

1:30 And so that just kind of brings me back down to the ground level knowing that there are a lot of people that are hurting on a day like that.

1:35 And so my encouragement to you from the very beginning is if you know someone in your life,

1:39 even if you're not great friends with them and you know they've lost someone, a military member,

1:43 send them a message today.

1:45 Pause this right now.

1:46 Pull over to the side of the road if you're driving.

1:48 Stop what you're doing at the gym and just send them a quick message.

1:50 Hey brother, I'm thinking about you.

1:51 Or hey, ma'am, I'm so sorry for the loss of your husband.

1:53 I just want to tell you that I'm thinking I'm praying for you.

1:56 Okay.

1:57 But to get to this book, she didn't just write a memoir of a sad gold star widow.

2:02 Right.

2:03 She wrote a book because there was a lot of chicanery.

2:06 I'll say going on with what happened with her and her husband's with her husband's team on the ground in Africa and some of the things that happened before this mission.

2:14 Some of the things that happened during the ambush and even afterwards.

2:17 And it is a very interesting thing for me to go through because I'm so patriotic.

2:22 But I don't think that America doesn't have sins.

2:24 And this is not a we're bashing the United States.

2:26 We're bashing the US military podcast by any stretch of the imagination.

2:29 This is a story of woman, one woman's fight for the truth as she's trying to figure out exactly what happened the day that her husband died.

2:36 I think she did it in a very poignant way.

2:38 I think she did it in a very appropriate way and she came out loving America, maybe even more so than she did prior to going in.

2:44 And guys, just to be honest with you, I think I may have even mentioned this whenever I did the interview.

2:48 This was one of the hardest books I've had to read and one of the hardest interviews for me to prepare for.

2:54 As I told you a lot of times, I'm not really overly emotional.

2:56 I don't really get emotional before, you know, while reading books or even watching movies or something like that.

3:01 I just don't get sappy with that kind of stuff.

3:03 I just stopped several times reading this book because I couldn't see the screen anymore because I was wiping tears away.

3:10 I had to go take a walk around my house or go do something else and come back to the book, even rereading my notes, just my notes.

3:17 Preparing for this interview with Michelle, I was getting upset, right?

3:21 And thank you to some of my foxhole guys that were praying for me to be able to make it through.

3:25 And I think for the most part, I held it together during this interview, but such an incredible opportunity to look at a woman that is so strong.

3:33 And there's even some quotes throughout this interview that I read from the book that I can't even believe someone would write these things because it's just something that you just wouldn't think to see with someone like that.

3:44 It's not something you would expect to hear from a gold star widow who, you know, basically the truth was withheld from her as to what actually happened leading up to her husband's death.

3:54 So guys, I won't keep her from you any longer without further ado.

3:57 Let's get into it.

3:59 Michelle black welcome to undaunted life of man's podcast.

4:03 Thank you for having me.

4:05 It is absolutely my pleasure. I just got to be honest with you. I did tell you this off air, but you and I've spoken a couple of times before this interview and this was one of the hardest interviews for me to prepare for, which, again, I'm just a stranger to you essentially

4:19 right, you know, we just met each other about a week ago but the contents of the book that you wrote which we're going to get into a lot of detail today.

4:26 It was hard to read the first time it was hard to reread the second time I even asked some of my best buddies to pray for me this morning just because as I was rereading sections of the book this morning I was becoming overwhelmed with emotion which is not a common thing for me so

4:40 let's go ahead and dive in to the book and the book that we're going to be spending most of our time talking about today is called sacrifice a gold star widows fight for the truth and so we see a lot of books Michelle from retired spec ops fighters right but we rarely see at least not in the mainstream books from

4:57 gold star widows so I guess from the very jump.

4:59 If you can just briefly even describe why did you want to specifically write a book.

5:04 Gosh that's there's so many reasons, you know, to be honest initially I thought I will write a short book so my kids know who their dad was you know I always joke that it's like in the lion king when he's you know he's sitting out there and you hear the clouds go by and it says

5:20 remember who you were or who you are and I think that's huge you know it's important for boys to know who their dad is and because it develops who they will become that's so important.

5:31 And I thought how does a man like this you know leave a legacy that his kids will know who they you know will know who they are where they came from that's huge and I want that to impact their future so I'm going to write so they know who he is so that's

5:48 what the first part of the book really came from with me I want to have this legacy for them so I am going to just self publish have this thing.

5:57 And so it really just started out as a way to hold memories store memories for my kids because they were nine and eleven but fast forward through everything that happened following his death from the release of the the video of the

6:17 the actual ambush the head cam video and then all of the media and then Africa not being forthcoming and then I think the final straw was when I realized there was the media brief with general walled

6:32 he went on and said this team is not indicative of what special operators do and I think in that moment I realized they stepped beyond lying to us and now they're completely dishonoring my husband and all the men who fought and died

6:49 alongside him and that was not acceptable to me.

6:52 So in that moment there was no other choice and I couldn't trust anyone else to do a good enough job.

6:57 Yeah, I can certainly see that and especially with the details that you lay out in the book about some of the things that you just threw out there.

7:03 There wasn't anybody that could tell in the way that you could tell because you were actually on the ground and we'll get more into that in a second because we'll be using the book as a guide for our chat today so to be clear there is a ton of detail in this book you did

7:15 a great job of putting detail in there even though this wasn't really your world you know all the acronyms and things like that so it would be impossible for us to cover everything in the requisite amount of detail in order to do it justice so

7:26 we're just imploring you the guys listening to this right now you've got to go pick up a copy of this book it will be in the show notes so you can really dig in.

7:32 But to back up really all the way to the beginning which is really the first part of your book you introduce us to Brian and you introduce us to Brian and Michelle right the item that you all became so

7:41 if you would briefly just introduce our audience to who Brian Black was and also tell us about everything leading up to the time whenever you all decided as a family that Brian was going to go into the army.

7:52 So Brian, he's been called a renaissance man he was just I mean you know and I think it's typical of special operators just 90 miles an hour he was involved in everything and he gave 150% to everything you know he was obsessed with this

8:10 and obsessed with that but he would master everything so chess he was a master of chess and he you know competed from a young age and then he was playing online poker while playing online chess

8:21 and he just had this brilliant mind so he would have four games of chess up four games of online poker and just click click click click click click click click click and you know I remember and he was he didn't speak much he was quiet.

8:36 So I remember I talked to his roommate joke as I knew Joan I said so what's the deal with this guy and he goes all I know is I walk in and he's got all these tables open and I'm going Brian what are you doing and all he responded was winning.

8:50 So he was known for his one liners and but he came across he was so quiet and he was he opened an MMA and did some cage fighting and jiu jitsu and on and on and on so when I first met him he was 230 and his neck was big

9:11 and I just thought this guy looks so big and dumb and and he knew he looked big and dumb so he played and it took me a while to realize this guy's really smart and everyone thinks he's stupid.

9:22 You know so then it just became fun to watch the way he would you know interact with people and purposely mess with them but you wouldn't catch on unless you realized he was smart.

9:32 So anyway we met we actually met in a ski area where we both were after college and we met at church and I never dated anybody and he was dating somebody I don't know from from work.

9:48 And he ended up telling her that if I would go out with him he you know ditch her basically and I found that out later and I was like that's horrible.

10:02 But that's what happened we went to a party together for for work and he showed up and ended up asking me out and we spent the summer backpacking and doing all sorts of stuff and by the end of that year we were engaged and married

10:16 and had two kids and then you know 2008 hit and he couldn't play poker anymore.

10:24 And so we restrictions on poker tightened and whatnot so he was having trouble getting a job because he hadn't used his degree yet.

10:35 And you know he all he had on his resume was gambler so no one would hire him but he was over qualified for other jobs. So he's like well what about the military and he'd always wanted to be special forces and you know he'd be perfect for it so I was like well yeah why not if that's

10:52 that's going to make you happy and you've always wanted to do it then go for it you know I'm hanging out raising the kids and we have one with autism so I had to be home.

11:01 So yeah that's what we did.

11:04 So I guess this is a bit personal but I know that this is kind of old hat for a lot of military families. Was there ever a conversation in the conversations leading up to him joining the army but also while he was in and whenever he was going to get his green

11:17 brain and being a green brain and all that where you had a conversation about him potentially losing his life and what that would look like for you and the boys.

11:32 So obviously he wanted us to play Finnegan's Wake and then he changed it to Furgan's Wake for his funeral with the cat and so I just was like whatever so he took care of that but really I think for us we were always we always had a strong faith and we just felt like you know whatever happens

11:51 like this is God's plan will be fine and if you die then there you go you could die driving to work today too like the odds of that are higher so if you're killed overseas and you're killed overseas but you know Brian was always an odds guy so to him well the odds of

12:07 me dying overseas aren't high so don't worry about it and I thought okay whatever like he's probably right he's more likely to die driving to work than he is you know in Niger Africa.

12:17 So but we also agree that he had very bad luck so

12:23 well if you're a poker player you're going to run into bad luck you will just get cold card so I'm sure he was aware of that but I will say that I kind of forgot as I was reading the first couple of chapters of your book I kind of forgot what the book was about because

12:36 things seemed really good like I was enjoying kind of the love story that you were spinning about you and your husband but then there is this quote from the end of chapter two and I'll go ahead and read it here.

12:46 Life seemed almost too good and it scared me a little.

12:49 I remember thanking God in that moment for allowing me to experience the level of life at the level of love in my life and marriage especially after 12 years.

12:56 Brian and I went furniture shopping and for the first time I picked out a bedroom set that wasn't handed down from someone else or bought second hand.

13:03 The bed frame was back ordered so the set would not arrive until the first week of September.

13:07 A week after Brian had deployed the mattress we had picked out came three weeks later, one week after our bedroom renovation was complete.

13:15 Brian was dead.

13:17 And basically from the end of chapter two on we're just we're almost living in the misery of what you were kind of experiencing as you were experiencing it.

13:27 So from your perspective, what was it like for you to kind of have and we're going to spend a lot more time on this but what was it like for you to kind of have that realization that everything's great this is all going well.

13:36 It's seemingly going too well and then all of a sudden Brian's killed.

13:40 Sometimes I feel like that was almost God preparing me because the minute he deployed I just, everything felt off.

13:50 I mean from the very first day I was looking out the window and wondering am I going to see people in uniforms.

13:55 It almost felt like and almost like he was telling me that like appreciate this really appreciate this.

14:01 You know I remember following Brian around the house like I was a kid following their dad you know and I just thought I don't want him to go anywhere without me and I'd never been that way with him.

14:10 We were always very very independent like you know I always say we didn't need each other we wanted each other and that was the biggest compliment.

14:19 But yeah all of a sudden it was like I didn't want to be away from him in that time period and I could tell I was kind of bugging him but I just felt something coming.

14:30 And I, yeah, it was a very surreal feeling almost like something big is going to happen and then he's going to be gone.

14:40 It's almost like that sense of foreboding and you know you mentioned that you felt like God was preparing you.

14:46 But then I found this quote in chapter three of your book and I thought it was very appropriate to kind of what you were going through.

14:51 So mid day on Wednesday, October the 4th of 2017, I was crossing my bedroom when suddenly I stopped in my tracks when I can what I can describe only as the spirit of God suddenly surrounded me.

15:02 And that moment I felt overwhelming calm and peace, a small voice whispered to me, trust me, everything is going to be alright, you will be okay.

15:11 I stood there for a moment contemplating what it meant.

15:14 The last time something like that had happened to me was the day before my dad died.

15:17 Remembering that I was scared out of my mind. So I breathe deep and willed that feeling of peace to wash over me again.

15:25 And on that day on October 4th of 2017 that was the day that there was the ambush that claimed the life of not only your husband, but also Jeremiah Johnson live David Johnson and Dustin right.

15:37 And you had to experience what every military spouse hates the experience that's looking out the blinds are looking out the front door and seeing that SUV pull up and seeing people get out and their dress blues or whatever their dress uniform is and of course you kind of described

15:52 what it was like whenever they came into the home and protocol required that they read a statement they don't really get to flee free flow about the spouse's death but going from having that feeling to having those men walk through your front door.

16:06 Can you take us through that a little bit.

16:08 Yeah, you know, honestly, I already felt like I knew and I remember hearing the car pull up and I thought it honestly would have been easier if they had knocked and read the statement because I could have just sat in that.

16:23 That's a real feeling of peace and it's going to be okay but the minute those words were read it was like I mean it just felt like you were like each word weighed like a ton like you were being hit by bricks and they were just knocking

16:42 back so all of a sudden it was just pure shock. I couldn't speak. I couldn't think you know I don't even remember crying I just remember shaking and having them have to help me up the stairs.

16:55 And then can you call someone and I just remember thinking I know like I, you know, I couldn't function and then finally gaining enough ability to realize okay I do have friends I can call and then being not reasonable like oh I told his mom I would call her

17:16 back. Realizing later I should have let the, you know, the chaplains go to her house but I felt this responsibility that I promised her I would call her so I need to call her and tell her that Brian's dead.

17:30 And then I realized when I had her on the phone I can't do it.

17:34 So that it was just, you know, fortunately my kids were asleep but until those words were said, it's like I could almost pretend that you know it would be okay but the minute the minute they read that statement that changed it it wasn't going to be okay.

17:50 When you spend a lot of time Michelle detailing kind of how you were to go through that process and we'll talk about one specific instant here in just a second because it was one of the most incredible paragraphs I've ever read my entire life regardless of the circumstances but before we do that.

18:04 One thing that was interesting and I felt like this was foreshadowing for the book and ended up being foreshadowing is when you started having guys come around to give you their condolences you know specifically the guys that were on the ground that day.

18:14 You noticed that they were pretty cagey or mum about the mission where your husband was killed they they weren't saying much now at the time you're dealing with all the craziness that that goes with you know dealing with the death of your husband and a military death at that.

18:31 But whenever you were hearing that I know you sensed it but did that worry you from the get go that you were surrounded by people that apparently just didn't want to talk about what happened.

18:40 I don't think I had the wherewithal at the time to fully process what that might mean.

18:45 I assumed they were I think automatically I assumed it had something to do with being around the widow maybe feelings of guilt.

18:53 It was the first time that you know Ryan had been in this firefight situation and I dealt with soldiers coming home you know so I just thought maybe maybe this is just because of that I wasn't sure.

19:09 You know it wasn't until later that I realized they're they're intentionally being this way.

19:15 Yeah as you described later on the book they were basically gagged from talking about it which in all honesty it may have probably been the best thing at that exact moment because we're not sure how you would have been able or any of the family would have been able to handle the

19:29 truth of maybe what happened during that time.

19:31 But I do want to talk about what happened whenever you went to the airport to receive Brian's body so I'm going to read a quick section from chapter four your book.

19:38 With a storm forecasted to move in that day it was breezy in the air was crisp as we stepped through the door into the bright light a day.

19:45 I pulled my sweater tied around me as one by one we filed carefully down the metal steps to an area where we would wait the plane.

19:51 We were offered earplugs for the noise.

19:54 I helped the boys put in theirs but I declined any for myself.

19:57 I wanted to feel and hear the impact of everything just as Brian had when he died.

20:03 No comforts nothing to soften the blow. I needed to stare down this beast even if it brought me to my knees.

20:10 And then this part here is just amazing.

20:12 I repeated in my head the thoughts that had kept me going since the beginning of October.

20:16 I am heartbroken but I am not broken.

20:19 I will face this fury and let every ounce of it hit me full force and dare it to break me.

20:24 I've heard it said that you marry your equal.

20:26 If that's true I'm a beast a force to be reckoned with. I will do Brian proud. This is my mantra.

20:33 I will take deep breaths hold my children close and handle things.

20:37 I will not be another victim of the men who took my husband's life and those of his fellow soldiers.

20:42 These men were left in a desert without a choice but I have a choice.

20:46 My children and I will not be further victims of this tragedy. We will be victors.

20:51 And so when I read that I literally had to stop what I was doing.

20:57 Even now like it was just overwhelming that you could put yourself in that headspace.

21:02 But you weren't doing it just for Michelle Black you were doing it for Ezekiel and Isaac you were doing it for your boys.

21:08 You were doing it for the other family members that were there.

21:10 Hell you were even doing it for the people working at the airport that were overwhelmed by the situation.

21:15 But I can't even fathom how you get to that headspace Michelle. I mean we constantly talk about on this podcast.

21:21 You know being able to push back darkness and you equip yourselves to be spiritually mentally and physically resilient.

21:26 All those things it's great things to say in theory but you were doing it.

21:30 Take us through how you could even get to a mindset like that.

21:33 I think probably I've been through a lot in my life.

21:41 And so I had to develop that strength early.

21:46 I was raised by a dad who it was we are up at 5 a.m. we are working hard.

21:51 It was work hard play hard but it was above and beyond.

21:55 So you know we wanted something done on the house we'd remodeled the house ourselves including all the kids helping late bricks etc.

22:03 When me and my sister both developed epilepsy at a young age my first day of college classes I walked in and had one.

22:10 So I had to walk back in the next day with my head held high and I was a debilitating shy kid raised in a small town with a large family.

22:22 So I was used to being in a pack and suddenly I was alone.

22:27 And I just got dropped into that situation and my dad was like you are not coming home.

22:32 You need to not be a victim.

22:34 You need to handle this yourself.

22:36 You're an adult now.

22:38 I want you to like basically you will not become your own person if you don't learn to handle it.

22:45 So I was not allowed to come home.

22:47 So I spent a year just struggling through that on my own and then so then I committed myself to church and basically becoming very disciplined to make sure that I didn't drink.

23:01 I didn't stay up late I made sure to take all my medication if I take my medication I do not have seizures it will never happen to me again.

23:09 The last time I had them I was pregnant so 14 years ago so if I'm handling everything and I'm very disciplined everything works out.

23:19 So I learned to be very disciplined and as long as I'm disciplined I can do all the things I loved.

23:25 I loved snowboarding I want to be up there every day I wanted to be able to teach kids to compete to do everything I wanted and in order to have that life I had to be disciplined from the very start.

23:36 And I lived with girls in college who were disciplined so it was no TV.

23:40 We were up at 6 a.m. we were reading our Bibles we were you know I'm not as disciplined with that anymore but I studied the Bible inside and now I could quote it front to back.

23:49 And I had never gone to church before college so just developing discipline and having a kid on the spectrum and having to teach himself control and that your life is a series of choices and those choices determine who you will become.

24:07 And so when he was seven years old sitting him down and telling him this is autism this is what it looks like.

24:13 I can only choose for so long you know at a certain point you have to choose do you want to be like all the kids or do you want to be like the autistic kid.

24:22 Because right now your choices are leading you into behaving like an autistic kid.

24:27 And so it's that idea of taking responsibility for yourself and taking that power and yeah a lot of times you have to pray through it and you really have to be disciplined and work on it.

24:39 You have to focus in on what you're in goal and really are you a victim or are you not sometimes that victim mentality that's up to you.

24:49 So I think that's what it was for me is listen this is terrorism but they wanted to affect us.

24:59 And I remember thinking but my husband's children will be raised in the greatest nation on earth.

25:05 These kids will be doctors they will be lawyers or they'll be green berets I don't know but they have every opportunity and these terrorists their children will be raised in sub Saharan Africa.

25:17 If they're lucky they won't starve to death by the time they're five.

25:21 So in the end we win the war and I need to take that view when it comes to this situation and raise my kids in a way that honors their father.

25:33 Well certainly an inspirational thing to read and now hearing you describe it obviously it's kind of has a scaffolding underneath it of something that's very very serious that really started whenever you were a child but really we live in a culture where you are praised if you are a victim.

25:47 And you chose to go the wrong or not the wrong route you chose to go the opposite route of that which is the correct route.

25:52 And now your boys are going to be they're going to benefit from that because even if you hadn't have sat them down and talked to them about this.

25:58 They were going to see what mom did they were going to see mom strength and as they grow older potentially have families of their own they'll understand how hard it was for you to do that.

26:06 But it wasn't very long Michelle after you officially laid your husband to rest you'd gone through all the memorials and the very, you know the grave site the funeral all that.

26:14 And then there was a lot of drama that surrounded what actually happened right so there was a lot of confusion.

26:19 The team on the ground that day was again as we mentioned kind of had gag orders they didn't really talk to anybody there was a 24 seven news cycle.

26:26 Because of something that happened during a phone call between President Trump and one of the other widows.

26:31 I mean there were articles on top of articles with stuff changing constantly but eventually there were articles coming out that claim that your husband's team had actually gone rogue.

26:39 Essentially that they were they went on a capture kill mission to try to take out some high value target terrorists and they did so without authorization which is a hell of a claim to make especially if you don't have the goods to back it up.

26:49 And then there were articles that were coming out claiming essentially that the team was young and dumb and they made a bunch of mistakes and it's led to horrible outcomes so it's like okay they were so genius that they could plan this out on their own and go rogue but they were also so dominant

27:01 experience that what could they possibly do with themselves.

27:03 And then he also mentioned that even general wild house or essentially came out saying during the African briefing that these men were not good operators that they did not serve well that they did not live up to the standard of spec ops and spec ops community.

27:15 And so with all that coming out not long after you bury your husband, what did you think what was going through your mind when you first started seeing a lot of these narratives coming out.

27:25 That there was no way.

27:27 I mean, my husband was as disciplined. He was more disciplined than I've ever been.

27:34 So the fact that he would go rogue is beyond laughable. The fact that a new captain could come in and somehow lead them to go rogue I mean there's just there's no way.

27:50 There is absolutely no way.

27:53 You know that there was a core group of guys on the team already that I was aware of that my husband, you know they were tight knit and they were all very experienced.

28:03 They were leaders they were all very intelligent and it just for this new captain come in and mislead them that was not possible.

28:11 So for me, it was.

28:14 It was frustrating.

28:16 And I thought there is no way this is this is possible.

28:20 I also saw basic facts, you know, like really simple facts about my husband or other team members that the media would put in their reports that were wrong.

28:31 But then they would also say, but we know what happened in this team went rogue.

28:35 So when you're saying, well, you know, you're saying my husband is, you know, a support member or, you know, there were a few different things.

28:43 I just went, you're telling me this and then you're saying he went rogue, which tells me you don't know anything.

28:48 It was certain that Africa would come up with, hey, this isn't what went down. And when they didn't, and they agreed that that was a lot of things.

29:02 It was enraging the injustice of what was going on.

29:06 I was like this, you cannot do this to a family who just lost somebody in this manner lied to them and then accused that person of going rogue and causing this.

29:17 And not being basically, yeah, like, as though if you die with a green beret on suddenly you aren't qualified to be a green beret.

29:26 Sure, which, yeah, it's, it's great when those when you could say things about those people when they're not here to defend themselves.

29:32 But even even before general walled house or came out at the African briefing and said what he said, which was reprehensible on April the 28th of 2018.

29:39 So again, this was months and months after the ambush happened because again, that was on October 4th of 2017.

29:46 Your family was actually briefed on the findings of that month's long investigation as to what happened.

29:51 So y'all are basically just, as you can imagine, you're waiting every day and you kept getting these updates.

29:57 No, no, it'll be another couple of weeks or it'll be a little bit further down the road.

30:00 And then finally the day is here. Right. So I know there are a lot of details about that meeting and it's impossible for us to cover them all today.

30:08 But can you briefly describe what took place in that briefing?

30:11 There were a few things about that meeting that especially stood out to me by the time I came out.

30:16 One, that there were three setups.

30:19 And the first one was for a basic mission down to Telawa.

30:23 And that was a sieve mill recon mission. And that was the one that they were saying, well, it was actually meant to be a kill catcher.

30:30 And that was the only call out put together by the team members.

30:34 And so that is the highly disputed call out.

30:38 The problem is that they did just do a kill capture mission.

30:42 And it was using a two hour window of intelligence from the night before.

30:49 So it was almost 24 hours old by the time they went down there.

30:55 So to say that they were going after a kill capture, this guy is ridiculous. He wasn't down there.

31:01 So they did do a sieve mill recon mission. And then there were two more con ops after that.

31:08 And those were downplayed as yes, but they were filled out properly.

31:11 So they didn't lead to the ambush, but they were the missions in which the ambush occurred.

31:18 They also told us that there was, you know, we questioned them about that extensively.

31:24 And basically in the end, it was like, well, they weren't intentionally misleading, but you need to trust us.

31:29 There's something very wrong with the con ops, just believe us, was kind of what it was left on.

31:34 And I was getting a lot of, they were not happy with me questioning them about it as much as I was.

31:41 Then we went into, well, when you sent them up to the border and did the third con op, you canceled the hella born unit.

31:49 Did you do a second threat assessment before you sent them up alone?

31:53 Well, no, we didn't. Or no, they didn't, but they told us in the brief that they did.

31:59 And so, but there was this awkward pause and exchange between the lawyer and the commander commanding general of the investigation.

32:11 Where there was this awkward pause and they both say, yes, yes, we did a second threat assessment.

32:20 We would find out later, they didn't.

32:23 There were just, there were several things like that and telling us that, you know, basically Mike Parrazini,

32:31 the captain of the team, chose to stop in the ambush.

32:35 While they were being ambushed, he stopped the vehicle, the convoys in the kill zone.

32:40 And I asked why, and the reason was given that, well, they, he wanted to get out and do a bold flanking maneuver, you know, and that cost lives.

32:49 So, but again, anytime I asked her, I asked anything, I just was shut down with the trust us.

32:58 This is Mike's fault, kind of an attitude.

33:01 And that, as I was reading that, I was getting frustrated for you, hearing about this briefing, because again, this is a military briefing, but there's a lot of people in the room.

33:09 It's not just your family in the general, there's general's aides, there are lawyers, there are, there are a lot of different people in there and they all have their own agenda.

33:16 And I remember that sticking out to me as well, when Henry Brian's father asked the general at the time, if they ran that second threat assessment, and that they gave them the answer of yes, but you find out months later that no under no circumstances.

33:28 Did they do a second threat assessment.

33:30 And had they done that second threat assessment, the intelligence would have pointed to the fact that this is not a good mission.

33:36 There were a lot of things at point to the fact that this wasn't a good mission, but that was just kind of one thing that set out to me.

33:41 But after the briefing, you got a visit, I believe it was at your home from Lieutenant Colonel David Painter.

33:47 Okay, so he was the commanding officer located in Chad.

33:50 And so he was the one that every time the men on the ground said, Hey, this is a dumb mission.

33:54 Hey, the intelligence is old.

33:56 Hey, we can't get there during this window of time.

33:58 It would be agree, agree, agree.

34:00 And then it would get to Lieutenant Colonel David Painter.

34:02 And then he would say, no, we're going forward with the mission.

34:04 So I want to read a quote from chapter 11 of the book here.

34:07 He continued telling Henry and me that he felt it was such an important mission that he stood by his decision to send the team to the border and would make the same decision still.

34:17 Which was when it occurred to me that he wasn't saying he was sorry for making that decision or even taking responsibility for it.

34:23 He was just justifying it, or he was just justifying himself to us.

34:28 If LTC Painter was truly sorry for the loss of those men, it wouldn't have taken him seven months to show up at my door.

34:34 If he felt any responsibility, he would not have allowed the men on the team to be publicly lambasted for a mission he had ordered.

34:41 Now, you talk about after that quote that you were basically numb to the meeting.

34:46 You weren't fed up from the meeting.

34:48 You weren't excited by the meeting because he claimed that he couldn't come talk to you during that period of time because there was an investigation going on.

34:55 But especially how the book is written and how you describe it.

34:58 Lieutenant Colonel David Painter does not come off looking very good.

35:01 And so I'm not sure if that was your intention or if you were just literally describing it straight down the middle.

35:06 But what was it like for you to hear this man have such an, I literally in the margin of my book, wrote ego and gigantic words.

35:13 And I'm reminded of what Jocka Willing talks about all the time, like, "Hey, extreme ownership you have to take ownership of the things that are your mistake."

35:20 But he clearly didn't do something like that.

35:22 I mean, he was just basically trying to tell you, "Hey, I did the right thing and things just didn't work out that way.

35:27 How did that make you feel whenever you were having to hear him talk like that?"

35:30 Honestly, it was hard to write.

35:33 So you asked if this was how it happened or if this was how I wrote it.

35:38 I honestly felt horrible writing the truth because he's a very likable person.

35:45 And when I first met him, I thought, "I like this guy. He's so nice."

35:51 And I think that's why I struggled with it for several days afterwards just being like, "I don't really feel any particular way."

35:59 Because he's a nice guy, but nothing he's saying really resonates as the truth.

36:05 Because he'd been missing and, you know, missing during all of this everything.

36:12 I mean, this chaos that was going on, nobody, you couldn't put a face to the name.

36:17 And I hadn't even heard his name until right before the brief.

36:21 So, you know, six months until I first hear his name.

36:25 I didn't even hear that there was a lieutenant colonel who had ordered the mission until six months into the investigation.

36:32 And yet I'd heard the guy's names who were on the ground all over the news from the very first day.

36:38 And so for me, it just didn't match up.

36:43 So I wrote it exactly how it happened.

36:46 I mean, he just was non-existent until that day to me.

36:51 And I think that just kind of shocked me and it went, you know, I think I said in there somewhere like, you know, this was his mission.

37:01 But he didn't own it.

37:03 He expected everyone else to own it for him.

37:06 And so, yeah, he didn't strike me as someone who had an ego.

37:11 But I don't see how you don't have one if that's how you behave because you're putting yourself above and your career above people who have died.

37:20 And above their families who lost so much more than, you know, a promotion.

37:25 And that's what it reeked of to me as I was reading through and kind of seeing because we all know that that's not something that's special to the military.

37:32 Anyone is willing to self preserve, right?

37:34 We're just willing to say what we have to say and do what we have to do to get to that next rung in the ladder, whether it's a corporate ladder, the military ladder, what have you.

37:40 But man, like he really came off looking like the villain. So I'm actually glad to hear you say that it was hard for you to write that because you didn't seem to have any personal animus towards him.

37:50 But I mean, eventually for you, Michelle, the inconsistencies and the problems with, you know, the official story, we're just too much.

37:57 Right. So you actually made the decision of fairly bold decision, frankly, to interview all of the surviving members of operational detachment, alpha, ODA, three, two, one, two, that was your husband's team.

38:08 Why?

38:10 Well, it was General Waldhauser, honestly, that prompted it. When he got on national TV and he said this team is not indicative of basically all special operators on the continent are performing optimally, but this team is not indicative of what they do.

38:28 So he managed to just completely destroy and dishonor my husband and all the men who fought and died alongside him. And to me, that was a level of injustice that I was like, this cannot be, this is not acceptable.

38:43 I'm not going to stand for this. So I didn't feel it was right for the families. It wasn't, it wasn't fair to the men who had survived and made it back.

38:52 And it obviously, to dishonor men who gave their lives fighting overseas for our country under somebody else's orders, you don't do that. That's, that is never okay.

39:05 So I felt like I had no other choice to me. It wasn't a decision. It was, you know, it's just a name grain thing. Of course, this is what I do and I can't trust anybody else to do it right.

39:20 So I need to do it because the media had six months.

39:24 Right. And so, so just to kind of get into your brain space, was that a cathartic experience for you, talking to all the members of the team, did it make things tougher to hear it? Or were you just on such a, you know, unilateral truth seeking mission that it didn't really matter the emotions you

39:40 felt? Yeah, I think that's more what it was. It didn't matter what I felt. It was, I will just, like, I don't know if I'm OCD or what, but like the minute I had that set in my mind that this is my goal, it was like in two years time, two years from the death.

39:56 And I have a publisher, we're going to get the truth out there. You know, you see everybody wants to hear these stories about, you know, like, I was thinking like lone survivor and the Chris Kyle thing and all of this. So I thought, okay, the world wants to hear it.

40:11 So let's tell them the true story behind this one. So we have this story, but then let's also, like, hopefully bring justice back to this situation.

40:21 And then I realized at the same time, I can hopefully also bridge the gap. So if I get non military, so I get all the civilians reading it.

40:31 Maybe I can bridge that gap between civilian and military where they see why it matters, why the sacrifice matters, how it affects the family and also get that cool, you know, on the ground story in there and bring justice.

40:48 So it was kind of this whole complete picture. And that's why it feels more like two stories in one.

40:54 And it's because it really was. And I was told a lot. You cannot do this. You cannot put these two stories together. And I was like, but you have to, because this is the reality.

41:05 But yeah, after that, I think I was so driven to do it justice. I didn't care if it hurt. I didn't care if it killed me. I didn't care if I never slept again.

41:19 It was, I had to do it, something I had to do. And I think I was doing it for a lot of reasons. I was doing it for my husband and his family. I felt like I needed to do it for them. I felt like I needed to do it for the guys who were being blamed.

41:37 I didn't feel that was acceptable. And it does, you know, it's happened before, and it'll happen again. And I thought this, this happens and it shouldn't happen.

41:45 So I felt like I was the only person who could get away with doing what I wanted to do. I just had to get them to agree. And that was kind of the tricky part because, you know, green berets are known for their silence.

42:01 I was hoping they would be willing to because of my husband and their relationship. And they certainly were and they kind of, you know, tucked away the quiet professional mantra for a little bit so that they could open up to you about what happened.

42:15 And I mean, I agree with you. You have to tell both of those stories. And that was one thing. One of the reasons why we connected before I even brought you on is because I didn't know what your angle was because I hadn't read the book yet.

42:24 And I know that you were on this tremendous truth quest. You know, I was like, is this just a gold star spouse that has an axe to grind or something like that, but you even told me something off air that I asked you, you know, what if your kids wanted to go into the military, what if your boys went to go in the military and you were, you almost cut me off because you were so excited

42:40 at the potential that they might do that, that you would be supportive of that so I certainly think that you hit the mark that you were seeking to hit.

42:46 But in section three of your book, Michelle, you go into extreme detail as to what happened on the ground that day, but also in the days preceding October 4 of 2017, it's well over 100 pages of detail so we couldn't possibly cover everything here on the show.

43:02 So guys, everyone listening to this seriously, you have to go get this book so you can grasp the entire picture, you know, from ground level because what we're going to be doing is we're going to be looking at this from 30,000 feet.

43:13 So if you could briefly describe the mission confusion prior to all of this going down because there was not really a clear picture as to what the objective was and what these men were supposed to be doing, and what the intelligence was saying or any of those things so what was the mission confusion.

43:30 Initially, they were called up and they said, "Hey, we've got a two-hour window. We want you to go down to Tillowah, this little town. We have two-hour, some intelligence coming in that this guy is going to be in Tillowah for two hours. We want you to go down, check it out."

43:48 Well, it's a four-hour drive. And by the time they pack up the vehicles and et cetera, they're like, "We're going to miss that two-hour window." And it was like, "Well, we still want you going down."

43:56 So they pack up the cars, then they get a call back, "Hey, we want you guys to go down tomorrow. We're going to send a special team from, you know, NEOMA, and they're going to drive down there, and it's six in the morning. You guys are going to leave to Tillowah, and then you're going to go check it out."

44:09 So then they have to redo their call knob and repack their trucks and do everything. Then they get up the next morning, still running off this two-hour window from the night before, and they shoot down.

44:18 Of course, they find nothing. They send the Nigerians in to just kind of check around town, and then they go and do a little cally with the local military guy there.

44:31 And then they turn around and they're headed home. So the mission's complete. They're good, and they're going to go back to Wallom, you know, so call up one, complete, good, successful.

44:44 They're on their way back. They get stopped about an hour, I want to say, hour and a half outside their base, with a radio call from headquarters saying, "Okay, we've now gotten another piece of intel using the same single source, you know, reporting, and we want you to now go up to the border by yourselves."

45:07 And we're talking about an eight vehicle convoy, no roads heading up towards the Mollie border, which is just rife with terrorist activity.

45:17 And we're not allowed to cross into the border, and they think there's a campsite up there, and they want to send this team north and somehow create a blocking position, even though they're coming from the south, and they have to block them from fleeing north into Mollie.

45:34 And so the team says, "Hey listen, we can't do that with these trucks. It doesn't make sense. We're going after guys on motorcycles. We can barely move five miles an hour through the sand in the dark with our nods."

45:45 And they're obviously on motorcycles. They can go 25 miles an hour. We'll never block anything or, you know, so it's supposed to be a capture-detain mission.

45:57 So then they say, "Okay, let us look and see what we can do. They bring in a heliborne unit from Arlet."

46:07 So Arlet's going to fly in. And now because it's a multi-team raid, they're going to involve Lieutenant Colonel Painter, who's out of chat, so he can coordinate everything.

46:20 And the trucks are sent just driving while con-ops are made back at headquarters, and Arlet is coming in. And by the time all the VTCs and everything take place, there's a windstorm that's coming through, a sandstorm.

46:33 And so by then it's, you know, 11 o'clock at night, and the trucks are sitting out near the Mollie border alone, and they've been traveling for probably 10 hours to get up there.

46:48 And the heliborne unit goes wheels up, and they're turned around due to weather.

46:54 So at that time, the team members request a return base, and that request is denied, and they are sent to do the mission on their own, but they still have a significant distance to cover.

47:08 And they're supposed to go up near the Mollie border before sunrise to surprise, you know, whoever, and the terrorists, and basically check out the campsite and exploit it, destroy whatever they find, and maybe even, you know, find the terrorists captured a team, which none of this, they're in country to do.

47:31 And they're not trained for, and they haven't run any rehearsals because it's all, you know, these last minute missions.

47:39 So all, you know, very short suspension missions. And in the end, the interesting thing is this is what they are punished for is not running rehearsals, ironically.

47:51 So then they are sent up there, and they arrive after light because they're moving so slow. And now they are, they haven't slept in two days.

48:01 They're with a large Nigerian unit who, you know, they're young. They've hardly been trained because the team has just gotten in country and it's just started working with them.

48:12 And so they're not functioning well. The Nigerians are out of food. They're out of water. So they start heading back after they complete this portion of the mission, and they have to stop in Tongo Tongo to get water and to get food so that the Nigerians can make it back.

48:29 And as they leave, they are ambushed. And as they're being ambushed, the Nigerian trucks that are in the lead panic and back into the American truck stop in the entire convoy.

48:45 One of them tries to whip around the whole group and then side swipes the same American vehicle and traps everybody in on the road, and no one can move.

48:56 So essentially, everyone is stuck. They get out. They start, you know, at first it's just a small group.

49:08 And then their interpreter, worst of all, gets out with his radio and takes off. They never see him again.

49:16 And then Mike does a bold flanking maneuver. So he can say, "Hey, I'll go out. I'll assess the enemy. Take these few guys down." And then we can get on our way because they thought, "Hey, there's maybe five, six guys at this point."

49:29 What he realizes when he gets out there is there is a flood of militants coming in. And they're trying, they're well trained and they are starting to out maneuver them.

49:41 And so they have to get out of there. So Mike runs back. They get all the trucks moved and they start rolling out of there.

49:48 And my husband's vehicle, from everything I've learned, they've stayed behind kind of create a blocking position to get everybody out.

49:57 And as they finally start to get themselves out, my husband is killed. The other three men are killed. And then they get to their second position. Everybody who managed to get out and they are overrun and have to turn back.

50:15 And it just becomes, they're just, they're completely overrun. They have to leave their trucks. Their trucks get buried in the mud and they have to run and hide in the forested area.

50:28 And now they're afraid to go back to the village because they have seen several guys from the village actually out with the fighters. So they know it's a hostile village.

50:37 And so they are hiding in basically a clump of bushes and sand and they are hunted for about an hour before any help comes.

50:50 And eventually they were rescued, but I think there were five hours of miscommunication before they were rescued.

50:56 It was essentially a cluster in every way a cluster could be a cluster leading up to the mission, because obviously there was the, the long list of issues as they were heading out to the Molly Niger border.

51:07 And then also the issues when they were in Tongo Tongo that village and where essentially there's pretty good evidence and not just circumstantial evidence that the village chief was actually in on the ambush.

51:16 He actually delayed the team from leaving Tongo Tongo like with all these ridiculous delays, which probably helped set up the ambush and a lot of things.

51:25 And the thing that was crazy about it. And again, guys, you in just a few minutes gave us a really good overview. But again, there are just over 100 pages of details as to kind of what exactly happened to kind of give us a good idea.

51:38 But I do want to kind of talk about the fact that there was actual helmet cam footage that you mentioned earlier that came out kind of showing this attack.

51:46 And this is something that was put out there on the news. It was basically major news in the United States and the entire Western world doing the bidding of ISIS by showing this video, because people that are ripe to be radicalized are going to watch a video like this and think this is awesome but

52:01 there seems to be that your kids actually were watching this video or were able to watch this video. I don't know if you have watched it I think in the book you said how you weren't going to watch it you didn't have any interest in watching it but what was it like for you just being a mother of two sons and

52:16 that have to go to school and deal with normal bullying at school and things like that to know that there's video out there of their father's last moments.

52:25 And he was obviously terrifying and I was I rate I actually wrote a letter to President Trump which I happened to have the email for his military aid. So I sent him an email that ended up getting picked up and read before the

52:43 National Security Council and or was it the Joint Chiefs of Staff I forget I'd have to find the email that he sent back to me but and Mattis grabbed it and I guess he was really upset but it basically outlined like hey,

52:59 you know we are like when did it become okay to allow the media to sit here and promote terrorists you know and terrorize our own people and show you know bodies of soldiers etc.

53:16 So yeah we I felt like we become basically prisoners in our own home. Yeah I mean essentially I can't imagine what that would be like for you because I mean I know just a lot of people are curious so even if it's beheading videos

53:30 or ISIS videos and then doing these atrocities people are just interested to see what's going on for a lot of myriad of different reasons but I just couldn't believe because I don't remember at the time because you know there were a lot of other things going on in 2017

53:42 I'm sure Trump said something mean on Twitter so the media wasn't going to focus on that but the fact that this video was circulating out there before the investigation was even done.

53:51 I thought was so because it's just like if you show someone a video of something that happened and they're about to be on the jury for something else like that's going to kind of you know give them a little bit of an idea it's going to push them in a certain direction as to kind of what happened.

54:03 And we simply didn't know we simply didn't know what had happened so I thought that that was crazy as well but the aftermath of not only the video and the first report was that there was another investigation.

54:14 There was another family briefing and I say I use the term investigation very lightly because it was like Africa investigating Africa and weird Africa didn't find that they made any mistakes.

54:25 It's so incredible I can't believe that that actually happened but no new information was gathered right they essentially did a second briefing where they were reading even further truncated notes of the initial briefing that you got.

54:37 But all of it could be boiled down basically to one thing and that's that Captain Parazini was essentially thrown under the bus.

54:44 And so I thought that was a great quote from chapter 22 of your book I'll read it here.

54:48 When I think through the entire process from losing my husband to wanting the truth, I always find myself coming back to one thought things happen in war.

54:56 People die unexpected attacks and ambushes occur and there are failures along the way, but we must learn from those failures.

55:03 It wasn't the family's wanting punishment that led us here it was a family's wanting truth.

55:07 It felt to many of us as though when those in positions of leadership realize the truth might cost them promotions, they began lying to us and searching for someone to punish who they felt wouldn't be a great loss to the regiment.

55:19 It seemed they gave us the version of the truth they've that felt safest for them and their futures for getting that Jeremiah, the David, Dustin and Brian didn't lose a star, a career or a reputation.

55:31 They lost everything. And so did those of us who love them. And so I see them trying to pin this on Captain Parazini kind of the lowest hanging fruit because he was, you know, the officer in charge.

55:43 You know, they're the commanding officer really on the ground that day, but it just seemed like they were looking around for somebody to hang this on as opposed to, you know, we just need to deal with the truth regardless of how ugly it is.

55:54 Is there a situation correctly. Yeah, absolutely. Now when you look at everybody who was punished.

56:02 It's just it's mind blowing. I mean, there were there were two people who were punished that I'm thinking general Hicks and one other I'm not remembering his name but they were both set to retire.

56:13 Those who weren't set to retire. It's, they picked the lowest hanging fruit. So you look at Allen Benson, Major Allen Benson. They're, they're just justification for punishing him made absolutely no sense.

56:28 He lost his career over it and they're just, there was no reason he should have.

56:35 And Captain Parazini was the same Captain Parazini, you know, I wonder if it's just he was a new captain. He wasn't established. So they could, they could, you know, say something and there wouldn't be much history to to combat that.

56:54 And, you know, so he was punished for, I think it was not properly not doing rehearsals. And then Allen then Sam, it was for not it was for the pre deployment training, even though he was not in his position during the pre deployment training.

57:15 So both of those when you really look at the, the justification for the punishments, it's beyond it's, it's, they're just is no justification for the punishments. I mean, you know, short suspense mission. How do you punish somebody on a short suspense mission for not doing

57:36 pre mission rehearsals, and how do you punish somebody for pre deployment training when they were not in their position during pre deployment training.

57:47 But they did. Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, when you get into these military or corporate environments and you see some of the punishments handed down.

57:55 There, I want to assume that there's a reason for it, and that the reason is plausible. But the reason that's presented is none of those things, which makes it really hard for us to kind of figure out what that looks like. But again, you go into great detail in terms of what that looks like in the book.

58:11 But I do want to detail a couple of things at the end of the book as we kind of bring this more close to a close. You were in a grocery store, and you were there I think it was Memorial Day weekend and the gal basically asked you as she's checking you out.

58:24 Are you doing anything fun for Memorial Day. And it kind of caught you off guard obvious for obvious reasons and she's basically, you basically said, Hey, I'm not doing anything fun for Memorial Day. How about you? Yeah, I'm in a barbecue.

58:35 I love the long weekend that type of thing. But I felt like the next couple of paragraphs after that were important. So I do want to read kind of your response there.

58:43 Not so long ago, I was just like her. Memorial Day was the beginning of summer. It was big sales and sunshine, barbecues, swimming pools, laughter and drinks as something to do with celebrating our freedom, right? Happy Memorial Day. Happy Memorial.

58:59 Those two words merged together create an indescribable level of pain for those of us who have lost a loved one to war.

59:06 My children lost their father, Brian's parents lost their youngest son. I lost the love of my life. So I will not have a happy Memorial Day. That's simply not possible for those who understand what Memorial Day is.

59:18 It is not a happy day. It is heavy and somber and gut wrenching.

59:22 And so this episode is being released on Memorial Day 2021. But every year on this day, it's not going to be a happy day for you as you describe there. It's not going to be a day that's that's filled with relaxation and sales at Old Navy.

59:36 It's going to be a reminder of the realization that you lost your soldier, right? You lost what you were building with them. You lost your future. I think you actually said that quote in the book somewhere you lost your future.

59:48 So describe that to us as normal civilians because I have military members of my family, but I haven't lost anyone close to me. That was fighting for us overseas.

59:58 Tell us what we should think about Memorial Day.

1:00:03 I think more than anything, it catches you off guard and I know a lot of widows or even parents who have lost children who they hide during Memorial Day to avoid those kind of interactions.

1:00:18 I don't because I don't think everyone should have to, you know, it's kind of like that victim mentality of everyone needs to recognize my hurt, but because not everyone has had that experience. So how do you expect them to relate?

1:00:35 I can't, but I think just taking enough time to recognize this is what this actually is meant for is to remember those who have fallen and if nothing, if nothing else, remember those who are left behind hurting and take the time to maybe try not to use the word Happy Memorial Day with strangers because we never know.

1:01:01 And, you know, just even if it's only for one minute at three o'clock on Memorial Day that you take that moment to have a little bit of silence and say the name of someone you know.

1:01:15 And if you don't know, then familiarize yourself with somebody, everybody's into the Murph Challenge or, you know, Pat Tillman or there's so many you could name.

1:01:26 So pick one, learn their story and just remember it that day every year. That's it. I mean, you don't have to, it doesn't have to be an all day or an all weekend thing.

1:01:35 Yeah, I was going to mention the Murph because that's something that I've done I think every year for the past five or six years and it's, it's one thing so make sure you're in shape enough every, every May to do that workout but also to stop.

1:01:46 And especially right when you're done when you get done with that last step of the last mile of that brutal workout.

1:01:51 And don't just think about Lieutenant Michael Murphy you think about everyone that loved that man and to think about the millions of men that that have died serving this country since it's inception.

1:02:01 It's a very important thing for us.

1:02:03 But I felt like it was, it was pretty poignant the way that you ended your book.

1:02:07 So I'm actually going to read and so guys if you hate the sound of me trying to read out loud you're going to hate the next couple of minutes so just buckle in because I really enjoyed how you ended the book, because it was very appropriate to everything that preceded it

1:02:20 So if you'll forgive me as well I'm going to go ahead and read the last about page and a half of your book here.

1:02:25 For me there will always be the pain of losing Brian way too soon.

1:02:29 People always expect you to recover quickly from losing someone you love, but grief is complex and multifaceted.

1:02:35 It is not just missing Brian that is terrible, it is the isolation, the anger, the fear, and for me it is the lack of feeling safe after many years of having a protector.

1:02:44 People pass judgments on widows by the standards of our society I am expected to be an old maid now to wear black every day and live my next 60 years shriveled up in morning.

1:02:54 There is no longer someone who fights for me and I have to do all the fighting for myself.

1:02:59 And oftentimes I'm seen as an easy target by predators.

1:03:02 When I fall apart I do it in private when no one is watching and my kids don't see or hear me.

1:03:07 There are places a widow knows are safe.

1:03:09 The shower, the car, walking the dog late at night.

1:03:12 Those haunted hours are when I can let the painful cries I can no longer contain escape while the rest of the world sleeps.

1:03:19 When we use the word sacrifice we often imagine one act.

1:03:23 Really, sacrifice is a way of life.

1:03:26 Sacrifice goes on and on once you've committed to it.

1:03:29 We began sacrificing the day Brian signed on to the army and left me alone with two babies while he went to boot camp.

1:03:35 That is when sacrifice begins for all military families.

1:03:38 That first year Brian missed my birthday as well as Isaac second and he was given three days leave to fly from Texas to California and back for my dad's funeral.

1:03:46 Each year there were sacrifices made with the understanding that one day our family might have to make the ultimate sacrifice.

1:03:53 We give up so much when we commit to a life in the service to our country.

1:03:56 We give up our home and our friends as we move multiple times wherever the army tells us to go.

1:04:01 We give up attending family members weddings, funerals, and births because it does not fit into the deployment schedule.

1:04:08 Sacrifice does not even end when your husband's life does.

1:04:11 For my sons they have lost their father who would teach them how to throw and catch a ball, tie a tie, be a good sport, time a good joke,

1:04:19 catch a fish, talk to a girl they like.

1:04:21 The sacrifice of the fallen is a long and painful list.

1:04:24 Do not be fooled into thinking the sacrifice of the fallen ends when the final shot is volleyed.

1:04:29 The sacrifice made by the men and women protecting our freedom plays out over generations.

1:04:34 Their husbands, their wives, their children, their grandchildren, their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters.

1:04:40 It always plays out in the lives of those who stood beside them in battle and had to carry the news and the scars back home with them.

1:04:47 But more precious than the lives loss is the freedom that sacrifice afforded.

1:04:51 And no one understands that more than those who have worked to free those who lived under tyranny.

1:04:58 Depresso Lieber, which is Latin for to be free or to free the oppressed.

1:05:03 And that's the motto of the United States Army Special Forces.

1:05:06 And so as we bring the book to the close, I do have another question or two after this.

1:05:13 I've never heard of sacrifice described in that way.

1:05:16 I'm not sure if anyone has ever described sacrifice in that way, because I got to be honest, I thought of sacrifice exactly in the terms that you framed.

1:05:24 The way that you framed it from the beginning, which is it was a sacrifice one time.

1:05:28 Right, there's a continual sacrifice of, Oh, I wish my husband or wife was here.

1:05:32 They've been gone for six months on deployment.

1:05:34 But I was thinking of it as an instantaneous thing.

1:05:36 I wasn't thinking as a lifetime of sacrifice.

1:05:39 So where did you come up with that concept or hear that for the first time?

1:05:45 I was actually was just writing that paragraph.

1:05:48 And I started thinking like, how would I end this book?

1:05:53 And I always think, you know, when you end something, you want it to be powerful.

1:05:57 You don't want it to be like, you know, want, want.

1:06:00 So as I was writing it, I, that's when I just was thinking through sacrifice and I was writing it more as just like letting my thoughts flow on sacrifice and what it was.

1:06:14 And I realized that that's what it is because it's everyday things.

1:06:17 It's, it's learning how to be dad.

1:06:20 And like, that's, that's a sacrifice in itself is now I'm mom and dad.

1:06:25 So I sacrificed having Brian there to do all of this.

1:06:30 And, and you have to think through, but was it worth it?

1:06:34 You know, I think a lot of times you get people who they get upset like, Oh, your husband died, died needlessly.

1:06:39 And that's the most insulting thing to hear.

1:06:41 Because I'm like, no, we, we chose from the beginning.

1:06:44 And what I believe in the mission, I believe in what he was doing.

1:06:47 I think it's great that we're in places like Niger were there.

1:06:50 They need us there to help train their troops to prevent, you know, the spread of.

1:06:56 A terrorism and, and why do we as Americans get to live safely in our homes and then say that, that people in Africa don't deserve the same thing.

1:07:06 And because of my cost to my husband, his life, I think what we're doing over there partnering with their nations.

1:07:12 I think that's, that's awesome.

1:07:15 And, and very necessary, you know, so, but, but it's, it is costly and it is more than a one time thing.

1:07:24 It's, it's every day, you know, and, and I don't think I ever realized that until I'm here with my kids and I'm dealing with things where, you know, they're teenagers now and it's like, okay,

1:07:35 I have to figure out how to fish because you want to go fishing.

1:07:38 I have to figure out how to, you know, fix the door or how many door handles do these big, like, you know, my oldest is six foot already and he's, you know, rough on everything.

1:07:50 So, okay, I'm fixing door handles.

1:07:52 I'm patching holes in the walls and, you know, I'm doing everything and, and the, and the conversations, you know, about girls and it's like, you know, just all the struggles.

1:08:01 I'm having to do all the tech stuff, Brian used to be the guy, you know, so I'm monitoring every device they own and, and having to figure that out.

1:08:11 So, you know, all of those are my kids are sacrificing.

1:08:17 And so am I, you know, and then I see his parents at, you know, because they live a mile off the road now and so there are times when it's like, I just can't look at his mom because I can see the pain and I can see.

1:08:29 And, and that, you know, whether it's Christmas or Thanksgiving or it's Memorial Day.

1:08:34 And I mean, those sacrifices are still there.

1:08:37 She doesn't get to have Mother's Day the same ever again and Father's Day ever again.

1:08:42 And my kids don't, my kids don't have the Father's Day concept either because my dad's dead and their dad's dead.

1:08:50 And so, of course, we do have Brian's dad, but I feel like this fleeting thing where, you know, there's just so much, you know, donuts with that.

1:08:59 And, you know, the things that you're like, mom's going to show up again.

1:09:04 So, you know, there's, yeah, those were all sacrifices, but in the end, is it worth it?

1:09:10 And, yes, you know, because there are people in nations where we serve where the majority of kids are orphans because of the terrorism that exists there.

1:09:23 And if we're helping that and it costs us a little, then okay, I'm okay with that.

1:09:30 Well, I'm certainly taking it back that you would describe it that way and I mean that in the most positive way possible because that will always be a reminder to me.

1:09:39 The thing that I will take away from the book sacrifice is that concept that you ended with, right, because there is that continual sacrifice.

1:09:46 And also for me growing up near Fort Sill in Oklahoma, the largest army artillery base, or at least it was at the time that I was living there and being being around some people that lost their husbands overseas and seeing the pain of those people.

1:09:59 Like, they don't need their lawn mode once, right, that might make you feel good to just take your motor over there and take care of it.

1:10:06 These are people that continually need our prayers, they continually need our help.

1:10:10 And, you know, it goes far beyond what the VA can do, or what the federal government can do.

1:10:14 It's what you can do as a community.

1:10:16 But where I want to end the interview today, Michelle, is way back in chapter three, right?

1:10:20 I feel like we've been talking forever.

1:10:21 It's only been a little over an hour, but way back in chapter three, or your book, you describe, you know, what you and your father in law, we're going through.

1:10:28 Whenever you told your sons Ezekiel and Isaac about their father's death, right?

1:10:31 So you did a very strategically good thing, in my opinion, to not do that in the home because you didn't want the home to be a place of pain.

1:10:37 You wanted it to be more so a place of respite, so you did it, I think, at a playground somewhere.

1:10:41 But I want to read this paragraph that you wrote in chapter three.

1:10:44 They say that time heals all wounds, but some scars are everlasting.

1:10:48 Even in the moment, I knew that this would be one of those ugly scars seared forever on our souls.

1:10:53 Breathe, I told myself, just take a deep breath and trust he who makes all things new.

1:10:59 Remember, he can work all things for the good of those who love him and are called according to his good purpose.

1:11:04 I repeated this in my head as I stood by the slide.

1:11:07 Those promises were all I had left that day.

1:11:09 The only hope I could cling to that offered some glimmer of light in such a dark place.

1:11:14 So, Michelle, there are many people that would consider themselves to be, you know, atheists or agnostics or humanists or something like that.

1:11:22 Who would look at your situation and say, you know, yeah, your husband died in vain.

1:11:26 He died for nothing or how could there possibly be any good that could come from a situation like this?

1:11:32 These kids, they don't have a father anymore. They lost their dad. How is that a positive?

1:11:36 So, I guess for me, the simple but hard question I have for you is how have you seen how God has worked all things for good in this situation yet?

1:11:47 Have you seen, have you seen him make all things new yet?

1:11:51 Yes. Yeah, you know, I always tell my kids that, you know, life is hard. It's so hard.

1:12:01 But it's good. And so is God.

1:12:04 We weren't promised a perfect life, a long life. We weren't promised any of this.

1:12:09 But we were promised, you know, that God would always be with us and he would give us what we needed and he would give us peace and he would give us hope.

1:12:18 And, you know, I do feel like, you know, it's funny. I was just the stay-at-home mom taking care of my kids.

1:12:28 And he died and it was this panic of how do I make money? How do I, you know, but I feel like no matter what, there's always a plan.

1:12:38 And I felt from the beginning, like there was a plan set out. I had to just trust him. And as I've gone forward, you know, with writing this book and seeing myself hit these goals that I never thought was possible, it's incredible to go from, like I said, being a stay-at-home wife

1:12:56 to suddenly having a book that everyone told me I couldn't write be launched out of a publisher like Putnam and be interviewing and, you know, doing all of these things that, you know, at the beginning of my life, I didn't see possible being, you know, a debilitatingly shy kid who couldn't even look people in the eye, let alone speak to them.

1:13:19 I couldn't order a restaurant. God always has a plan for everyone. And we just have to trust that even, you know, whether it's death or, you know, whatever, like everyone dies. I, you know, I could die tomorrow.

1:13:34 But, you know, you just have to keep in mind, like, I don't deserve, you know, I don't deserve to have everything I demand that I deserve.

1:13:44 You know, like it's a gift given to us and I'll just take whatever I happen to get and I'll deal with the pain when it comes.

1:13:53 Well, I can certainly appreciate that sentiment. And I just thank you so much for not only the time today going into all the detail and answering my questions and enduring me reading out loud and all those things, but even just for your continued sacrifice for the continued sacrifice

1:14:06 of your household and your extended household because I know this isn't easy. And I know Memorial Day, the day this is being released on is not an easy day for you. So just know that I will certainly be praying for you. The Thompson's will be praying for you. But that is all for me for now.

1:14:19 Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?

1:14:22 I think I talked a lot more than I normally do. So I think I got it all off my chest. Thank you for having me on the dial. I really appreciate it. And I appreciate you, you know, reading the books so thoroughly.

1:14:34 And really, this is a great interview. I appreciate it.

1:14:38 That is part of the job. And you don't seem crushingly shy to me. So that worked out pretty well for the interview. But Michelle Black, thanks for coming on on Daunted Life, a man's podcast.

1:14:47 All right. Thank you so much.

1:14:50 There you go, guys. That wraps up my interview with Michelle Black. And before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness and specifically we do that by providing you content like this podcast that helps you forge spiritual

1:15:02 and physical resilience. So today I've got the website for the book, Sacrifice a Gold Star Windows fight for the truth. Guys, go and get you a copy of this book. If you can buy it locally, buy it locally. You've got to dig into the detail. We just didn't have enough time.

1:15:13 And we just didn't have the bandwidth. We could have spent eight hours talking and not gotten into the real details to what happened. It is worth your time.

1:15:20 And so for me, I'm not going to do the normal outro today, you know, where I kind of give you the commercial. Here's all the places you can follow us. Here's all things you can do, not the music on the outro.

1:15:28 Because I want to make sure that we can honor the memory of four Americans that were killed on October the 4th of 2017. Okay.

1:15:34 So that's Staff Sergeant Brian Black, 35 Sergeant First Class Jeremiah Johnson, 39 Sergeant LaDavid Johnson, 25 and Staff Sergeant Dustin Wright, 29.

1:15:45 Also to the rest of the men and women that we've lost in warfare, even those that were lost in training accidents or something like that, maybe weren't even away from the United States whenever they died in service to our country.

1:15:56 But also to the Gold Star families. We want to make sure that we're thinking of them today, that we're praying for these individuals. And again, if you know someone like this in your community, do something for that person.

1:16:06 Don't just tell them you're sorry. Don't just go up to them and say, Hey, you know, this really stinks. Can I mow your lawn for you once? Or Hey, can I go get groceries for you?

1:16:14 Make it a lifestyle because they are having to live as she talked about in the interview, a lifestyle of sacrifice that they didn't get to choose. They didn't get to choose. They didn't get a choice in that.

1:16:23 Right. So you can do your part. Don't just say you're thinking about them. Make it happen. Whatever the it is, make it happen for these people, help them in whatever way that you know and you can figure out to help these people.

1:16:36 And so guys, we're just going to end today with the playing of the song taps. And again, think of those that have fallen and the ones that they left behind.

1:16:53 [DRUMMING]

1:17:23 [DRAMATIC MUSIC]

1:17:53 [DRAMATIC MUSIC]