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0:48
This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
0:50
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:52
Let's get into it.
0:53
All right, guys.
0:54
Today we've got a special guest on the podcast for you and he is an alum of this podcast.
0:56
He is the Christian author, counselor and lecturer and that is John Eldridge.
1:00
So if you're not familiar with John Eldridge, where have you been?
1:03
What have you been doing?
1:04
You haven't been listening to this podcast.
1:05
He is a New York Times bestselling author of a large number of books and he's also got
1:08
workbooks and group studies and stuff like that.
1:10
But his newest bestseller is called Get Your Life Back Every Day Practices for a World
1:14
Gone Mad, which is very applicable for what happened in 2020 and certainly what's carried
1:19
over into 2021.
1:20
But he has written the seminal men's ministry book and I've said that over and over and
1:23
that is wild at heart.
1:24
So on our 100 books, every modern Christian man should read lists.
1:27
It's in my personal top 10 list.
1:28
So that's a book that you certainly have to read.
1:30
He's also authored some other books that we love here that you guys have read and loved.
1:34
That's beautiful outlaw, waking the dead, fathered by God, epic and he has many, many
1:38
others.
1:39
And he was on our podcast on episode 141.
1:41
So if you want to go check that out, you certainly should because in episode 141, we spend a lot
1:45
of time talking about the books, right?
1:47
We dug into a bunch of his different books and I asked him very specific questions.
1:50
I read quotes from those books and kind of went from there.
1:53
That's not what this interview was.
1:55
That interview was really good and you guys really enjoyed it.
1:58
This was something else entirely.
2:00
I wanted to kind of go into some other areas, some larger macro issues, culturally, spiritually
2:06
in terms of manhood and guys, this, this was a great conversation.
2:10
This was one of my favorite interviews that I've ever done and he actually turned the
2:14
tables on me at one point and he started asking me questions.
2:16
And so you should certainly stick around and listen for that.
2:19
And then also at the very, very end, I asked him about a very poignant and very awesome
2:23
quote from Jordan Peterson and you will not want to miss his feedback on that.
2:26
And guys, I'm not going to keep him from you any longer without further ado.
2:30
Let's get into it.
2:32
John Eldridge, welcome back to Daunted Life of Man's podcast.
2:36
Yeah.
2:37
Thanks, man.
2:38
Good to see you again, Kyle.
2:39
We are obviously very happy to have you back on because our guys freaked out the first
2:43
time we had you on.
2:44
It's like, Oh my gosh, how'd you make that happen?
2:46
They really, really enjoyed the interview, but this interview today is going to be a
2:49
little bit different.
2:50
That's the time we went through a lot of your books and we kind of dug in deep on some of
2:54
the books that are fan favorites of the people of this podcast.
2:57
We're going to do some of that today, but then we're going to get into some other deeper
3:00
issues.
3:01
So I'm sure you're going to be okay with that.
3:03
But the very first thing is the big news, which is you all have decided to relaunch
3:08
Wild at Heart.
3:09
Okay.
3:10
And so you've got a new cover for the book.
3:11
The book has been updated and revised and expanded.
3:15
You talked about that a little bit the last time that we had our podcast, then you also
3:18
launched the Wild at Heart experience right on your website, a six session video series
3:23
with a study guide to go along with it, kind of the whole nine.
3:26
But I don't want to take any of your steam here.
3:28
So what's different about this offering and how's it going to be beneficial to guys like
3:32
our listening to this?
3:33
Yeah, man, we, we saw guys getting pretty pounded through 2020 and into 2021, you know, we talked
3:41
about this before the anxiety, the depression, you know, the hopelessness, working from home
3:47
on your kitchen table on Zoom, even just all the crazy, right?
3:52
And we really wanted to make an offering to guys.
3:55
So we filmed this beautiful six part film series.
3:57
I mean, it's really gorgeous and we got it done during the pandemic.
4:01
We were able to do it last August, which was killer.
4:06
There was this window that we could get a film crew out and get into the woods and get
4:10
these different, you know, make it really gorgeous mountain biking, bow hunting, you know, make
4:15
it worth watching and, and then we decided, you know what, we're just going to give it
4:20
away.
4:21
Like put it online, make it free for guys.
4:24
So what it is, it's a, it's a six week journey you can do with us, you get on wallet heart
4:30
dot org, sign up for it for free.
4:33
And each week we, we deliver in your inbox, one of the sessions, but we also give some
4:38
scriptures, a reading that goes with it, some questions for reflection.
4:42
And then a special audio from me each week that says, okay, you know, we're here in week
4:48
two.
4:49
This is about the poser.
4:50
Let's be honest, you know, so it's a journey.
4:55
It's really meant to be more wholeheartedness for guys.
5:00
And we just thought, we thought the time was right.
5:03
Just given how tough the world has been on everybody, particularly men, like let's make
5:09
an offering, let's give something free away to guys that all bring some strength.
5:14
Well, I certainly think the timing is right, but I do kind of have to ask the, the pragmatic
5:18
business question side of it, which is just here recently, we, we announced that we're
5:22
expanding things considerably and we're going to be, you know, selling some things and trying
5:26
to create some things that are a value to people.
5:29
This is obviously of tremendous value.
5:31
And if you read any, you know, business one on one or marketing book or something like
5:34
that, it's like, you know, put a price tag on it because your time is worth something
5:37
and all this.
5:38
And it kind of walked me through just the business side of it, like why create something
5:42
that is so gorgeous.
5:43
I watched these videos.
5:44
They're, they're absolutely fantastic.
5:46
Why put it out there for free?
5:48
That's what my publisher is asking.
5:51
Okay.
5:52
At least it's not crazy.
5:55
You know, um, we don't, we wanted no barrier to entry.
6:00
We wanted just no hurdle, nothing, no other agenda in it.
6:04
I believe, I believe that you're worth your time, Kyle.
6:07
I believe that there's value in, in, in what we do.
6:11
And so, you know, my books are for sale on Amazon and that sort of thing.
6:16
But this particular moment and this particular offering, we just said, you know what?
6:22
Let's give a gift to guys.
6:24
And, and it's really true, like it's better to give than to receive.
6:28
It's just a joy to put it out there for stinking free.
6:33
I'm sure that's got to be exciting for you.
6:34
Because I, I told you this off air, but you let me have access to the videos prior to
6:38
the launch, which I really appreciate being able to see that just so I can make fun of
6:41
my friends that didn't have access.
6:42
That's the main reason why I enjoyed it.
6:44
But aside from that, when I got on your website and saw that everything was free, I was like,
6:48
okay, they're doing something different now.
6:50
Like they're, they're, they're really trying to make an impact.
6:52
And later on, I've got some questions that are kind of questions for this moment and
6:57
we'll kind of get into that.
6:58
But I guess to wrap up the, the wild at heart thing is it's, it's got to be at least a little
7:02
bit weird and a little bit humbling that people are still buying and responding to wild at
7:08
heart.
7:09
Right.
7:10
I mean, we live in a world, John, where the morning's news is forgotten before lunchtime,
7:13
right?
7:14
Like everything just moves out of breakneck speed and you've talked about that in some
7:17
of your books, but a 20 plus year old book is still having this large impact.
7:21
I mean, walk me through how you even feel about that.
7:24
Well, it's a God story.
7:27
I mean, that's all there is to it, that in this moment of cultural crisis, in this moment
7:34
of gender crisis, God knew and he teeted up and the way he teeted up, like with the
7:41
clients that I was working with at the time of writing the book, with all the things we
7:46
were doing, raising boys, he set it up.
7:51
And I think he set it up for now, like it's, it's been on this trajectory around the world.
7:57
It's not seen a dip like that.
8:00
And in the bottom, the bottom line is as it works, like it heals, it strengthens.
8:06
It provides fathering where guys didn't get that it works.
8:11
And so one guy tells another, tells another, tells another, you know, just father's giving
8:16
it to sons and guys, you know, just like in your group, right?
8:20
One guy gives it to another and he reads it and he goes, oh my gosh, my brother needs
8:24
to hear this.
8:25
And so, yeah, it works.
8:27
That's the why.
8:28
Well, I told you this, I think in our last time that we, our last interview rather, that
8:32
we reread that book at our foxhole group, right?
8:37
And so a lot of us were kind of like, yeah, wow, it's hard.
8:39
I mean, been there, done that.
8:40
We've read it before.
8:41
Most of us have read it multiple times.
8:42
And then we reread it again.
8:44
It's like, oh, okay, this stuff is super applicable, even more so now because of some of the things
8:50
going on culturally, which I don't want to get the cart before the horse here because
8:53
I did want to do something a little bit new with you, if that's all right.
8:56
So we have just recently started taking donations to kind of grow what we're doing here with
9:00
undaunted life.
9:01
And we have monthly partners.
9:02
We have people that have partnered with us to help us push back darkness.
9:06
And so if you want a little bit more information on that, just go to undaunted.life/donate.
9:10
But I asked some of our first donors, right?
9:13
These people that were ready to go, they're like, how we're ready, we're raising our hand,
9:16
we're going with you.
9:17
And I asked them if they could ask John Eldridge, one question, what would that one question
9:21
be?
9:22
So I got a lot of responses from these guys.
9:23
So you cool with going over some of their questions?
9:25
All right.
9:26
Here we go.
9:27
Okay.
9:28
So the first one is from a guy named Adam Smith.
9:29
And so thank you very much, Adam Smith, for being a monthly partner with us.
9:33
But here's his question.
9:34
How do we respond to people in today's society who call us close-minded bigots for believing
9:40
that the Bible teaches that a man is a man and a woman is a woman?
9:46
Yeah, well, here's the deal.
9:50
There is so much hatred in the world right now that as we stand our ground, as we try
10:00
and explain to people that this is real, you can see it in the science, you can see it
10:05
in the brain, you can see it in psychology, you can see it in the patterns of how you educate
10:12
boys and girls.
10:13
I mean, it's everywhere.
10:14
We're not making this stuff up.
10:17
You got to do it with grace, like be gracious.
10:21
The scripture says a gentle answer turns away wrath.
10:26
And there is a truckload of wrath out there.
10:30
So I would combine that with the idea that Jesus said he has ears to hear, let him hear.
10:38
I can tell when I'm in an interview or a conversation, when I'm getting my haircut or I'm down at
10:45
the auto parts store, I can tell, is this guy, is this gal really open to hearing?
10:51
Or are they just pushing back?
10:53
And if they're open, right, you can go, well, it's actually pretty beautiful.
10:57
Gender has got a lot of dignity to it from God.
11:00
If they're not open to it, I would say, don't bother.
11:03
Yeah, it's Pearl's before swine at that point.
11:06
It's not going to go well.
11:07
So I would just say something like, you know what, we're just out here trying to help some
11:12
guys that are curious with what we're doing, but if it's not for you, it's not for you.
11:16
And I think when people hear, you're not trying to shove this down my throat, they go, Oh,
11:25
I mean, even if they're not interested, yeah, so a gentle answer turns away wrath would be
11:29
what I'd say.
11:30
Well, so to that, just as a quick follow up, because I don't want to take any time away
11:34
from the other guys that want to get their questions in.
11:36
So could sometimes the gentle answer just be no, I've talked to so many guys whose school
11:43
districts are kind of bringing in LGBTQ books into their library for, you know, the elementary
11:48
school kids and stuff like that.
11:50
So perhaps the gentle but forceful answer could be no.
11:54
Could it not?
11:55
Oh, yeah.
11:56
Oh, yeah.
11:57
Yep.
11:58
Absolutely.
11:59
But, but again, like pick your fights, pick your fights there, there is, there are people
12:09
who really are looking and they're and they need some answers, especially like parenting
12:15
boys, that kind of thing, they're looking for answers.
12:18
And there's there's a lot of people out there that just want an argument and it's not worth
12:23
your time.
12:24
It's not worth your time.
12:25
All right, sounds good.
12:26
We'll get to the next question here.
12:27
And this one is from Greg Jarrett.
12:28
So Greg, thank you for being a monthly partner with us.
12:30
And this is his question.
12:31
And it goes back to something you mentioned earlier, John, given the shift to work from
12:34
home and virtual school, it feels as if our dependency on technology the past year has
12:39
accelerated.
12:40
If you could add a new chapter to your book, get your life back due to the events of the
12:45
last year, what advice or guidance would you add?
12:49
Well, okay.
12:51
So a lot of us now are committed to it and you and I are right now.
12:55
We are online getting our work done, right?
13:00
So I would say you've got to break it up.
13:04
First off, break it up if you can.
13:06
Like when I'm done with this interview, before I go on to the next thing, I'll literally
13:10
just walk outside, chuck the ball to the dog, you know, and I literally like get my hands
13:15
in the earth.
13:16
I need to do that, like reconnect with reality.
13:21
So break it up if you can.
13:22
Do these five, six, seven hour stints, like in screen time.
13:27
Second thing is now you know how much more important it is that when you are done, you're
13:32
done.
13:33
And so switch your entertainment, guys, like if you're on technology all day for work,
13:40
don't make technology your downtime in the evening, you know, build something, model airplanes,
13:46
you know, fix your chainsaw, put in, you know, spark plugs in the lawn more, like just do
13:51
real stuff.
13:53
And I'm going to throw a little, a little tidbit in here because I've been really struck by
13:56
this.
13:57
I was reading a study that was talking about the mental, again, the mental health effects
14:01
of the pandemic and all that on us.
14:04
And it was, it was talking about the human brains need to achieve, achieve real goals.
14:11
And so it for guys, this is huge because we love to fix stuff, honestly, fix stuff, fix
14:19
the toaster, put a new light switch in, paint a room, like I'm serious, like every week,
14:25
you've got to be doing stuff that's real where you're winning.
14:29
You know, even if it's, even if it's dumb stuff where you're like, put in a new light
14:33
switch, I'm telling you, it's going to bring you joy because the masculine soul needs to
14:38
do real stuff and feel like we're making progress.
14:41
So now in the evening, you're going to switch to, you know what, I'm going to actually go
14:45
back down to the batting cages.
14:47
I used to do that in high school, I loved it, I've been there for years.
14:50
I'm going back down.
14:51
I'm like, we're just going to slump some balls so much better than, than, you know, technology
14:56
all the way to bedtime.
14:57
That's a great way of thinking about it because there are a lot of days, John, where I hit
15:01
my, my head's about to hit the pillow and it's like, Oh, this thing has been in my hand
15:05
all day.
15:07
And I say it's because I needed that, right?
15:09
But I didn't need every last second of it.
15:11
But yesterday when I was digging holes in my backyard to set traps to try and kill the
15:15
stupid gopher that's putting mounds in my yard, that, that was me getting in there and like
15:20
being completely unplugged before this interview, I was doing jujitsu.
15:24
You can't have your phone out there.
15:25
You can't live tweet a jujitsu session, right?
15:27
Like it's doing something tangible and even if you get whooped and even if I don't catch
15:31
the gopher, it's still doing something with my hand.
15:34
So I certainly appreciate that sentiment.
15:36
So the next question here is from a guy named Chris Zurzavi.
15:38
So thank you, Chris Zurzavi for partnering with us.
15:40
And it's a really interesting question.
15:41
This is it.
15:42
Did Jesus were to disciple men directly today like he did with his disciples?
15:48
What lessons do you feel would be the most prominent in Jesus' teachings for inciting
15:53
change in the current state of our society?
15:57
Oh, man, that is a brilliant question.
16:03
I honestly, I think he would start with rage.
16:10
Meaning, what are you going to do with your rage?
16:16
Because there is so much wrong right now with the world and there is so much falsehood.
16:24
And you guys, you're in all this.
16:26
You read the news.
16:27
You see it.
16:28
The censorship, all that, like again, in the masculine soul.
16:32
And I think this is what really fried guys in the last year is that we are so wired for
16:39
the fight to make a difference, to bring good, to bring breakthrough, truth, healing, redemption,
16:47
healed marriages, great kids, all that.
16:50
We're so wired for the fight that when we can't fight because it's just so out there,
16:58
it's ethereal, it's in the hands of the media or whatever, like there's a lot of anger that
17:03
gets built up.
17:05
I think Jesus would really help us say, look, you're in a super tough moment right now where
17:12
a lot seems out of your control.
17:15
Let's start with anger and how to handle it well and disciple us in that.
17:24
So it doesn't get the best of us because, man, I could feel it this morning.
17:29
I could feel it this morning that hatred wants to get inside us so that we answer with hatred.
17:39
I can feel it, guys, like I was [inaudible] and I could feel, I'm like, wait, hang on a second.
17:48
There is an appropriate place for anger, but don't let the hatred in.
17:53
Don't let it into your heart because then they want, then they want, right, and you're
17:59
taken out that way.
18:00
So I think he'd start with that and then I think he would, honestly, here's where the
18:07
battle is going to get one.
18:09
It's going to get one in the neighborhood and it's going to get one in small groups of
18:15
guys doing stuff together, like my neighbor across the street is a great guy.
18:24
And I've built some rapport with him over the years.
18:27
So over the pandemic, when he was totally locked down, I gave him while at heart and
18:30
I said, hey, you're bored.
18:31
You're looking for something to do.
18:32
Read this.
18:34
And here's the cool story.
18:35
He got back to me.
18:36
It's about halfway through.
18:37
He's like, oh, dude, we need to get on my porch.
18:39
We need a lot of fire in the fire pit.
18:42
We need to have some beers.
18:43
We need to talk about that.
18:44
Yeah.
18:45
And like, that's it.
18:46
That's it.
18:47
Man to man, life to life, neighborhood to neighborhood.
18:49
This is where it's going to happen.
18:50
Honestly, it's not going to happen in the media.
18:53
That's not where the battle is going to get one.
18:55
It's going to get one life to life.
18:57
And the good news is that we got that, like we can do that.
19:01
Right.
19:02
That is within our effective sphere of influence.
19:05
We can do that.
19:06
So I'd say small groups of guys doing cool stuff that invite other guys into it.
19:11
Well, one of the things, John, that I think happened in 2020 as well, is I think people
19:15
for the first time learned the name of their mayor and their city counselor and their sheriff.
19:22
And it was because all these rights were potentially being taken away from them in their communities
19:26
or their school board, which is five people and a three to two vote allowed some of this
19:30
nonsense to happen.
19:31
People are all of a sudden, wait a minute, wait a minute.
19:33
I was worried about Trump's Twitter, right?
19:35
I was worried about, you know, what Kamala Harris might do whenever she takes over and
19:40
is no longer co president, but is actually president.
19:42
And then they realize it's like, wait a minute.
19:44
There's stuff happening in my community that I had a vote.
19:47
I could have actually changed some people.
19:49
I could have talked to some people in the neighborhood and maybe shifted 10 a dozen votes
19:53
to a better way of doing things.
19:55
And so I think that's been something for guys to kind of bring it down to the granular level,
19:59
which is like, hey, as long as it's righteous indignation, that means you can use that anger
20:04
to fuel you in a positive direction.
20:06
But if it's just misguided, then we have an issue.
20:09
Yep.
20:10
Yep.
20:11
Right on the movement, the movement is always grassroots.
20:15
Absolutely.
20:16
All right.
20:17
Next question here.
20:18
And this one is from Reg Aldrich.
20:19
So much for partnering with us.
20:20
This is his question.
20:21
It's a simple one.
20:22
How do you effectively balance the personal pursuit of manhood with the development of
20:27
your family?
20:28
Yeah.
20:29
Right.
20:30
Oh gosh.
20:31
This is every guy's deal here in a lot of it depends on the age of your kids.
20:37
Because when you're in the, when you're in the grade school, you're in the young, you
20:40
know, the Lego years and the, you know, soccer and baseball and music and all that.
20:47
It's rough and I have three sons and two of them are at that stage right now.
20:52
They're 30, 32, they're, they're just in it.
20:55
And so I would say it's the early morning run.
21:00
It's the once a week, you know, at the dojo, it, it, you're going to, you're going to have
21:05
to carve it out, recognizing it's not everything you want.
21:10
And I want to say to those guys, it gets better.
21:14
It gets better.
21:16
It really does.
21:17
Because as your kids get a little bit older, a little more independent, they want to see
21:21
their friends, their sleepovers, da, da, da, da, da, suddenly you're like, whoa, I just
21:26
got a 30 Thursday night off.
21:28
And then you grab it, you grab it for your soul.
21:32
You grab it for what you're doing.
21:33
You get out in the yard and shoot your bow, you, you know, get out and hit a bucket of
21:38
balls or whatever.
21:40
Kindness, guys, kindness to yourself, because it's so frustrating that you can't get it
21:48
all in.
21:51
And this isn't about getting it all in.
21:53
It's finding the margins where you can get some life for your own soul.
21:59
Well, I feel like that was the message I needed because I just told you I went to jujitsu.
22:03
That might be the only class I get in this week.
22:05
And it's just like, I'm getting worse.
22:08
All these other people are getting better, but I also have to realize that guy that's
22:11
getting better is 22 single and has a part time job.
22:14
So he can live at the gym.
22:16
That's the why he's getting better.
22:17
So, you know, in this season of life, okay, all right, I'll have to chew on that one a
22:21
little bit more, but I, something tells me you're probably right, but that's frustrating.
22:26
But I appreciate it.
22:27
All right.
22:28
Last question that we have from one of our listeners, and this is from Ryan Horn.
22:31
And this was his question.
22:32
How can I, as a father, biblically raise my son to be a leader while living in a culture
22:37
that is set on a masculation and the demonization of patriarchy?
22:42
Yeah.
22:43
So again, grassroots, first off, that you want to either build or find the kind of community
22:54
immediately around you, your immediate friends, the play groups, the other dads, their sons,
23:00
that are living in what you want, right?
23:03
So that his initial experience is growing up, you know, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, it's just,
23:08
it's just a company of men who all believe this, and he understands, oh, this is the
23:14
way we're wired.
23:15
There's a lot of affirmation, there's great experiences, there's shared adventures.
23:20
So you know, you start with that circle of influence, the immediate, and if it's toxic
23:26
there, oh man, like you got to change that.
23:31
And you may need to set some family boundaries and say, you know, I love your uncle, I love
23:36
your brother, you know, but we can't hang out with them every weekend.
23:40
They are super toxic people.
23:42
So you do have to create that initial circle of community support, and it's a couple of
23:48
pals for him and a couple, it's not huge, it's not hundreds of people, but in your immediate
23:54
barbecue circle, your picnic circle, your hangout circle, right?
23:58
These are people who know and love what you know and love, and they're affirming it in
24:03
your son.
24:05
And then you begin to give him, he's got to get stretched, masculine, he's all about
24:13
getting stretched, right?
24:15
So then it's, hey, this came up in class this week, I don't know how to answer this, let's
24:22
sit down and talk it through, what would be the best way?
24:25
And it comes back to some of that stuff about a general answer, it turns away rat and that's
24:29
kind of like showing him the power of self control.
24:32
Scripture says that the man who controls himself is greater than a warrior who wins an entire
24:37
city.
24:38
And so showing him those lessons of, I know that makes you mad, I know let's figure out
24:44
a really cunning way to answer that.
24:47
And if the teacher is hostile, how do we disarm him or her?
24:51
How do we become their friend?
24:53
What if we invite your teacher over to dinner, but like showing him the brilliant way?
24:59
So Jesus says, I want you to be as innocent as doves and shrewd as serpents, like guys,
25:07
you got to teach your kids that this is a world that requires cunning.
25:14
And quite often that means the indirect approach, there was a whole book written on this by
25:20
that title, the indirect approach about how you win wars, how you win arguments, how you
25:25
win people.
25:27
And it's very rarely kicking down the front door.
25:31
People just don't respond to that well, systems don't respond to that well.
25:35
But you come in the side door, you find out that your teacher, she loves gardening.
25:41
And so for a teacher's day or whatever, you get her some plants.
25:46
And they're like, wait, what, like you actually care about me, you're not just interested
25:51
in winning the fight and you're showing your son the brilliant way.
25:56
You're like, how can we disarm this and win some influence here so that when you get up
26:02
to give your book report, she's listening, right, and you get your chance to make your
26:07
point.
26:08
Absolutely.
26:10
I lied.
26:11
There is one more question.
26:12
And this is perhaps the most meaningful question that I got from any of our listeners,
26:16
John, and it's this, bourbon or scotch?
26:19
I mean, we need to know the answer to this.
26:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's all it's all in the consumer.
26:28
It's all in the taste buds.
26:30
I am not a bourbon guy.
26:33
I have friends who are love it.
26:36
I just don't and I know what it actually, wow, I didn't even I didn't even track this
26:41
until this moment.
26:43
So my dad was an alcoholic and his deal was bourbon.
26:47
And so I just think the smell for me, like the certain aroma, I just think I just immediately
26:52
like, no, not, not interested there.
26:55
Yeah.
26:56
Okay.
26:57
So while we're doing the interview, I just got on your website.
27:01
I found the donate page and I clicked the $100, put my credit card in.
27:06
I just donated to undaunted life.
27:08
So I'm now a supporter.
27:09
So do I get to ask a, I guess so those are the rules that I made up here.
27:13
They're on the spot.
27:14
But hey, hey, thank you, John, the elders for being a donator to undaunted life.
27:18
So go ahead, fire away.
27:20
Here's my question.
27:21
My question is, what are you going to do for joy this summer?
27:26
What's the family plan for joy?
27:28
So that is actually a fantastic question because, and I know you're doing that on purpose because
27:31
I don't consider myself a joyful person or someone that searches for joy.
27:35
But this is something I'm honestly excited about.
27:37
My son's turning one years old May 7th and he's been very sick for, for a long time.
27:42
He was just at the doctor again today.
27:44
Can't get his, his ears figured out fluid, you know, fevers, all kinds of crazy stuff.
27:49
But assuming we can get all that under control.
27:51
The thing I'm most excited about is doing the things during the summer that I don't
27:56
normally do myself, but I want to do with my son.
27:59
So I'm a ginger for those of you that are not list that are, aren't watching this or,
28:03
you know, listening to it.
28:04
So I don't like the sun that much.
28:06
So I will mow the lawn in a hoodie.
28:07
I don't even care.
28:08
But I'm going to go to the pool with my boy and we're going to hang out the pool and he's
28:13
going to wear a tank top and he's going to show off the guns for the ladies and it's
28:16
going to be great and we're going to have a good time.
28:18
And he should be walking maybe around that summer.
28:21
And so for me, I look back on my father and even with all of his faults and all the shortcomings,
28:27
most of which he would admit himself, the thing that he always was for me was present.
28:32
He was there.
28:33
Not only was he at every game, John, he was at every practice, right?
28:37
He sacrificed so that he could watch his boy, do whatever his boy wanted to do.
28:41
And so I want to kind of start that even the summer, you know, he doesn't exactly remember.
28:46
I'm not able to kind of, hey, read the communist manifesto and let's talk about it next week.
28:49
Like I can't have those types of theoretical conversations.
28:53
But for me in my house, we intend to have a very joyful summer outdoors.
28:57
Right on.
28:58
You know what?
28:59
Guys, listen to this.
29:00
The best investments you can make is that $15 plastic kitty pool, right?
29:08
I'm telling you guys, you get a lawn chair.
29:11
You put your feet in the kitty pool.
29:13
You let the kids hang out in it.
29:15
It's joy.
29:16
Like just goofing off like, yeah, that's a good plan.
29:20
It's funny you bring that up because my wife yesterday was like, because it's cold right
29:23
now in Oklahoma.
29:24
It's like 40 something degrees.
29:25
But she's like, hey, we needed to go get one of those little kitty pools and just toss
29:28
in the backyard.
29:29
We're not at the big pool.
29:31
We can just sit there and literally do what you just said.
29:33
So that is very interesting.
29:34
But hey, again, thank you very much for supporting us.
29:37
And hey, if you want to throw in another hundred bucks, I could probably take another question.
29:40
You know, I'm over.
29:41
Give me another question.
29:42
Next.
29:43
Next.
29:44
Okay.
29:45
I'll let you think through it.
29:46
All right.
29:47
So I want to kind of, I want to kind of shift through.
29:48
And so this is, this is kind of getting into the world of the theory.
29:49
Ethereal.
29:50
You brought that up a little bit earlier.
29:51
But you're, you're someone that is very, very much so in tune with prayer and God giving
29:56
you words or giving you phrases and then you will kind of sit on those and meditate on
30:00
those.
30:01
That doesn't happen for me as often.
30:02
But I feel like it hit me between the eyeballs yesterday.
30:06
And so I'm just going to throw this out there.
30:07
I don't even have a question prepared.
30:08
I'm going to throw out what I think God was telling me while I was preparing for this
30:12
interview, I feel like God put this short thought on my heart and it's that this.
30:16
There is a reckoning for manhood on the horizon.
30:21
And the emphasis in my brain was reckoning, right?
30:23
You know, manhood on the horizon that shows that it's imminent and all that.
30:27
But hearing me say that there is a reckoning for manhood on the horizon.
30:31
What does that bring up in you?
30:39
Quite a bit actually.
30:43
So let's chase a couple threads of that.
30:50
The first one is courage.
30:56
The amount of fear that has swept through the world, and we talked about this, you know,
31:03
that was out for a hike in the woods.
31:06
I am in the woods.
31:09
And here comes a hiker with a mask on.
31:12
And it was a young woman.
31:13
She was in great shape.
31:15
She was beating me and I just felt so bad for her.
31:21
I didn't want to shame her.
31:22
I didn't want to blame her.
31:23
I didn't want to start an argument with her.
31:24
I just felt so bad for the fear that has gripped her.
31:30
Fear has really swept the world.
31:33
And I think part of the reckoning is the courage that is required of men in a world
31:43
that is going sideways.
31:46
And so connected with that is the courage to believe, the courage to believe.
31:58
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, be steadfast, immovable, steadfast and immovable.
32:07
It's such a masculine thing to be a rock, to be a rock for your family, to be a rock
32:13
for your friends, for your community, in a world that's going nuts.
32:19
So those are couple of threads.
32:21
The other thread that comes to mind, Kyle, is your character.
32:28
Guys, this is no time to dink around with your character.
32:35
I know too many stories.
32:39
And we sit in a position where we get a lot of these stories because we're connected to
32:43
the men's movement around the world.
32:45
But man, good men blowing up, blown up the marriage, divorce, having an affair, blowing
32:56
up online, blowing their lives up.
33:02
If there is a reckoning coming, I will guarantee you that your character will be tested.
33:12
And your character is what will see you through it.
33:16
And so don't dink around with your character.
33:20
Like honestly, humility, integrity, holiness, love, like you can't compromise on those things.
33:30
Right, some of them came to mind when you said that, John, is I go all the way back to
33:34
a podcast episode I did after the country of Ireland legalized abortion.
33:39
And the big through point as to why that was able to happen was because the Catholic church
33:44
had completely lost its place in the country of Ireland to where most people were like,
33:49
"Oh, wait a minute.
33:50
Y'all were the ones that were raping boys and then just moving the people around so no
33:53
one would get caught.
33:54
Yeah, up yours.
33:55
I'm not going to listen to you about what I should do in terms of voting for abortion."
33:58
The same thing for us as men, if we're going to be pushing back on darkness culturally,
34:02
spiritually, you know, whatever, then we have to make sure our house is in order.
34:07
Because if someone can easily take out our knees because we live in a post truth culture,
34:11
so a lot of times you're like, "Well, what I'm saying is true.
34:13
That doesn't matter anymore to a lot of people," right?
34:16
It matters what fits their narrative.
34:18
And so with that in mind, we've got to be able to push back and understand that what's
34:22
undergirding what we're saying is truthful while at the same time recognizing that we're
34:27
not perfect and we have to be covered by the blood of Christ.
34:30
And that actually dovetails nicely into kind of what I wanted to ask you next.
34:33
And this could go a million different directions and we could have spent the entire time today
34:36
just talking about this.
34:38
But I wanted to get your thoughts on kind of the "woke" church movement.
34:43
So critical theory, specifically critical race theory, seems to be working its way into
34:48
a lot of denominations and to a lot of congregations individually.
34:52
There are a lot of well-meaning Christians that don't know what to do with that.
34:56
They haven't read white fragility.
34:59
They haven't read Ibermec's Kennedy.
35:01
They haven't read any of these people.
35:03
They haven't read any of the counterarguments from a Vodie Bakkam or from a John MacArthur
35:07
or something like that.
35:08
And so what are your thoughts in terms of what that's going to potentially do to the
35:13
American church?
35:14
Maybe the church writ large and what we could as men do to affect that?
35:25
So this is a three-part podcast, right?
35:27
You understand that these questions are so huge.
35:30
This is all part of my plan, John.
35:32
I just want you to keep coming back because we weren't able to solve all the problems.
35:35
So that's certainly part of the plan.
35:38
So it depends on who you're talking to is the answer.
35:48
First off, you cannot come across as being opposed to justice.
36:01
Now I know you're not.
36:02
I know you're not, guys.
36:03
I know you're not.
36:05
But you've got to understand that out there right now, there is a hair trigger that if
36:12
you seem in any way opposed to the pursuit of justice, there's actually something really
36:21
evil at work in the world right now.
36:23
And I'm just trying to figure out how to put all this into an answer.
36:28
What the world is trying to do is arrange for the kingdom without the king.
36:34
They want the kingdom without the king.
36:37
They want all of the justice and equality and reparations that the kingdom of God actually
36:44
brings, right?
36:46
I mean, we will love one another, every tribe, tongue, and nation.
36:50
Like God's got this fabulous racial theory, right?
36:54
We are his sons and daughters.
36:58
What they want is the kingdom without the king.
37:00
And when you start insisting on that, the end result is a sacrificial system.
37:10
Somebody gets thrown under the bus and it will probably be conservatives.
37:18
So you've got to be really aware that this is operating in the world right now so that
37:26
you won who are you talking to?
37:31
Is this your rector?
37:32
Is this your priest?
37:33
Is this the deacons, the elders, your pastor?
37:36
Are they open?
37:38
Are they open to a conversation and say, hey, how do we do race right?
37:42
Like there are wrongs to be righted.
37:46
And part of the hatred spiritually that I think is in the US right now, I think it goes back
37:52
to the Civil War.
37:55
Because when you have that kind of thing in a nation's history, it gets in the soil, it
38:00
gets in the soul, it gets like when you have that kind of hatred.
38:07
So you see like, who am I talking to here?
38:10
Are they open to thinking about how do we do race right?
38:15
How do we say, yep, yep, we hear you.
38:20
Sometimes people just need to know you hear them.
38:23
We hear you.
38:24
We get it, yes.
38:29
If they are not open to the conversation, I think what you have to demonstrate is humility
38:36
and love.
38:38
And say, you know what, pastor, father, we don't agree, but I love you and I'm not mad
38:49
at you.
38:50
I think there's a better way to go about this, but I'm not going to force my agenda on you.
38:56
You see this guys?
38:57
Like we are walking a really difficult path ahead.
39:01
And so a big part of it is do they have ears to hear who you're talking to and what are
39:07
you trying to change?
39:08
What are you trying to secure in this moment?
39:13
Because if you listen to, let me just give you an example.
39:17
If you listen to the Wild at Heart podcast, we never make political statements.
39:27
Why?
39:28
Because in this hour, the moment that you do that, you are primarily speaking to your
39:34
own, the people that agree with you.
39:38
And if you want to speak to the people that don't agree with you, you got to keep their
39:44
ear and win over through your actions, through your love, through your involvement in the
39:50
community, et cetera, you got to win the right to be hurt.
39:55
And so because we have this global platform, that's our choice in that.
40:01
But it's not out of fear, it's out of cunning.
40:06
And then as people write into us and ask us questions, then one-on-one, we can answer
40:11
them.
40:12
And they write in.
40:13
They write in.
40:14
They ask us.
40:15
And then on a personal level, we can say, "Hey, I'm really glad you asked.
40:18
Let me share some thoughts on that."
40:20
Does that make sense?
40:21
It absolutely makes sense.
40:22
It's an hour that requires a lot of cunning, a lot of cunning.
40:25
Now, the reason why that makes sense is because I think most people, they walk into a conversation.
40:31
They're expecting an argument, first of all.
40:33
And because they're expecting an argument, they've got their talking points.
40:36
And so they're approaching a conversation like they would, a five-minute quick hit on
40:41
a seven p.m. at night news station show or something like that on Fox or MSNBC.
40:46
And they're not approaching a long-form conversation.
40:49
And even if the long-form conversation doesn't happen in that moment, it could happen over
40:53
a multitude of moments, over days, weeks, months, years, like we don't really know what
40:57
that looks like.
40:58
You might just be planning the seed of this conversation saying, "Hey, I'm listening
41:02
to you.
41:03
I want to hear your point of view.
41:04
I get the strong sense that we're going to disagree, but I want to come to some vague
41:09
sort of understanding."
41:11
And I don't know that most guys do that.
41:12
And it's because they don't have tact.
41:14
And I've encouraged guys to read Greg Hochl's book called Tactics because he takes a very
41:20
tactful approach on how to do apologetics.
41:23
And the thing is, is sometimes you could run afoul if you're having all these apologetic
41:27
arguments as coming off as like, "Oh, I know everything."
41:30
And you're just a lowly peasant who hasn't read as many books as I have.
41:33
Let me just read to you, Thomas Aquinas.
41:36
It's like, "No, no, no.
41:37
I'm not going to really get to the heart of the issue."
41:39
You think it's going to, and you're going to walk away thinking, "I made the superior
41:42
argument, but you're going to leave having not changed a mind."
41:45
Guys, I used to be that guy.
41:49
I could tell you, it doesn't work.
41:53
It doesn't work.
41:54
I was that guy.
41:56
And I was loaded for bearer, man.
41:59
Okay.
42:01
So let me give you an anecdote.
42:04
My son's 15 years old and we're in the full-till adolescent teenage confrontational years.
42:12
And he does something that totally flips my lid.
42:16
And I'm going downstairs.
42:17
He sleeps in the basement, his bedroom's in the basement.
42:20
I'm going downstairs and I'm fried.
42:23
And the thing is, guys, like, I'm brilliant at arguing.
42:26
I can, I'm supposed to be with a 15-year-old, I can win this in seven seconds.
42:30
Okay.
42:31
So I'm walking downstairs and thank God, I'm literally on my midway on the stairs.
42:38
And I breathe up a quick prayer and I said, "Jesus, what's the goal?"
42:41
And he said, "Keep communication open."
42:45
I'm like, "Right, right, right, right, right, right.
42:49
If I go down right now and lower the boom, the conversation's over, the goal is to keep
42:56
the conversation open."
42:59
That's it.
43:00
So I think even the wisdom there, John, can just be, "Hey, guys, take a second to pause."
43:04
Because it's going to take you a few seconds to get to the bedroom door knob.
43:08
So take a few seconds to pause and see if you're hearing something from God.
43:12
A couple more questions for you.
43:13
This one, you can just kind of give us a brief answer.
43:16
But you've clearly inspired a lot of people, including yours truly, with your writing.
43:21
And so my question to you is, whose writing inspires you?
43:25
Oh, I love CS Lewis.
43:29
He's like one of my all-time greats because he's brilliant at it, right?
43:35
He, he, all this, the tact, right, all of it, GK Chesterton for the same reasons.
43:44
They were brilliant, but they were cunning.
43:47
They were so winsome in their argumentation that you may know the famous story of the
43:54
London Times in Chesterton's era, the London Times invited the readers to send in their
44:00
thoughts on what is wrong with the world.
44:03
Remember this story?
44:05
It just invites in, Chesterton writes in, "Dear editor, what is wrong with the world
44:12
is me."
44:13
And it just so threw like he could, he could have shredded, he could have ripped so many
44:20
brilliant arguments, but he pointed it to human nature and he said, "What's wrong with
44:25
the world is human nature and it's in all of us.
44:27
What's wrong with the world is sin and it's in all of, anyway, they were great.
44:31
Those two guys come to mind.
44:33
Dallas Willard's been a huge influence.
44:35
I start looking at my, looking at my shelf here.
44:39
Yeah, that's it for now."
44:42
Well, hey, that's, that's a great list and guys, that's why we put together our 100 books
44:46
every modern Christian man should read list on our website.
44:49
D.S. Lewis is the only author with his own section.
44:51
Typically, the sections are parenting or money or Christianity.
44:56
There's a, wait, wait, wait, I don't have my own section on there.
44:59
Hey now, I gave a hundred bucks.
45:00
I understand that.
45:01
I understand that.
45:02
Okay.
45:03
We can have a discussion off air and we can talk about you having your own section, but
45:06
while this heart is on there and it is also bolded and highlighted, which indicates that
45:10
it's one of my top 10 favorite books.
45:12
So can we at least, you know, kind of take the pressure off a little bit?
45:15
Okay.
45:16
Fine.
45:17
I have this question here because I, I heard this quote here recently and so I was like,
45:20
okay, I got to get John's input on it.
45:22
Obviously you're, you're aware of who Jordan Peterson is.
45:25
You've talked about how a lot of guys have been fathered by some of the things that, that
45:28
you've written, right?
45:30
But you're pointing them to the father.
45:31
Jordan Peterson has kind of been a father to multitudes of boys that don't have it or
45:35
don't have that strong male influence, but he had a very poignant thing that he said
45:38
in an interview and it was this, a harmless man is not a good man.
45:43
A good man is a very, very dangerous man who has that under voluntary control.
45:51
What are your thoughts on that?
45:53
Quote.
45:54
Yep.
45:55
I'm going to make you give me a little bit more than that.
45:57
You got to give me a little bit more because I agree with you up, but give me some more.
46:03
This is what the world doesn't understand.
46:05
You see, and again, you've got to, you've got to grasp where the world's coming from.
46:10
Our prisons are not filled with young women.
46:14
Okay?
46:15
They're not.
46:16
They're filled with men.
46:17
Young women don't commit the majority of violent crimes in the world.
46:21
Young women did not commit the majority of terrorist acts.
46:24
So you have the world looks at masculinity goes, masculine is dangerous.
46:27
We got to get rid of it.
46:28
You go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, medicine is dangerous, but you don't get rid of it.
46:34
You put it in the hands of people who know how to handle them, right?
46:38
Education is dangerous.
46:39
You don't get rid of it.
46:42
You put it in the hands of people who know how to handle it.
46:45
The same thing with masculinity, right, to have the kind of strength that allows you
46:53
to rescue your family from a burning building requires a level of risk and daring and fortitude
47:07
that is so core to masculinity.
47:10
But that same man has got to keep that under wraps when he's disciplining his children,
47:16
right?
47:17
And so, yeah, Peterson's right on that.
47:19
I agree.
47:20
It's a great quote.
47:21
And we've gone everywhere in this conversation.
47:23
This has been fantastic.
47:24
It's definitely different than the first time I'm chatted, but we went a lot of great
47:27
places.
47:28
And hey, I gained a new donor out of the deal.
47:29
So that worked out pretty well, but hey, that's all for me for now.
47:32
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
47:34
No, no.
47:35
Great to talk to you guys, Wild at Heart.org, the Wild at Heart experience.
47:40
It's free, six week journey.
47:43
It'll really strengthen your hearts.
47:45
It really will.
47:46
We will certainly make sure that that link is in the bio notes.
47:48
So John Eldridge, thanks for coming back on Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
47:53
Thanks, pal.
47:54
Great to talk to you again.
47:59
There you go, guys.
48:00
I certainly hope you enjoyed my second conversation with John Eldridge as much as I did, guys.
48:03
I'm just telling you, it was a mind-blowing conversation.
48:06
And really, he mentioned it a couple of times there, but it's like, this could be a mostly
48:09
part thing, just some of those things we were talking about, especially kind of the wokeness
48:13
in the church or kind of what to do with, you know, people wanting to emasculate young
48:16
boys and the patriarchy and LGBTQ issues, there's certainly going to be more conversations
48:21
in the future.
48:22
And we're certainly going to keep talking about here on this podcast, and I'm sure all
48:24
the guys over there at Wild at Heart will do that as well.
48:27
But before we let you guys go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted
48:30
Life.
48:31
We're equipping men to pushback darkness, and specifically, we hope you do that by providing
48:34
content that for just spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
48:37
So today's resource for you is a big resource, and it's just one.
48:41
It's the Wild at Heart website.
48:42
So if you go to wild@heart.org, and again, that's going to be here in the show notes,
48:45
you can check out the Wild at Heart experience, you can check out the captivating experience,
48:49
which is the experience with Stacey, his wife, and that's more for the ladies.
48:52
And so you can give that to your wives or to people at your church.
48:54
So you can definitely check out all of that there.
48:56
Also you can link through there, go through there to go to Amazon to buy his books and
49:00
check out all the other stuff they have going on over there, including the podcast blogs,
49:03
everything else.
49:04
All right, guys.
49:05
Thanks so much for listening to this podcast.
49:06
We really do appreciate it.
49:07
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and review.
49:10
If you want me to come speak at your live event or on your podcast, all you got to do
49:13
is shoot me an email info at undaunted.life.
49:15
That's I-N-F-O at undaunted.life.
49:18
You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok and like us on Facebook.
49:21
Check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content
49:24
like this coming.
49:25
Hey, guys, John became a donator right in the middle of this episode.
49:28
So if you can do it, you can do that as well.
49:30
Just go to www.undaunted.life and if you want to donate, just add a backslash donate
49:34
to there.
49:35
We also want to thank the band, August Burns Red, for allowing us to use their entire music
49:38
library for our content.
49:39
The entorato track on this podcast is our song Defender, which is off their latest record
49:43
entitled Guardians.
49:44
The links are in the description.
49:46
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
49:48
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
49:55
Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
50:25
[music]