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0:33
- This is "On Daunted Life" a man's podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:52
Let's get into it.
0:53
Our guys today, we've got a very special interview for you.
0:55
It is with Justin Briarley.
0:57
So you should have heard that name before,
0:59
because I talk about his show on my podcast,
1:02
literally all the time.
1:02
He is the host of the Unbelievable Radio Show
1:05
and podcast on premiere Christian radio over in the UK.
1:09
He's also the author of a book called Unbelievable,
1:11
why after 10 years of talking with atheists,
1:14
I'm still a Christian.
1:15
And guys, if you've heard me talk about this before,
1:17
it's been in the context of some of the best
1:20
and most polite debates you might ever see.
1:22
So this guy has spent, I think over 10 years now,
1:25
recording these interviews typically between an atheist
1:28
and a theist, but it's not just on, you know,
1:31
whether God exists or whether he doesn't.
1:32
He goes into a lot of different areas.
1:34
Like he'll go into areas of culture,
1:36
areas of race or areas of like specific minutiae
1:39
within the Bible or within theology.
1:41
But the thing about it is,
1:42
and you might find this typical because,
1:44
oh, he's English, everybody's polite over there.
1:46
But the thing is, is I've never heard more cordial debates
1:49
than the ones that he does on his show.
1:51
He is a tremendous moderator
1:53
and he's incredibly humble about it.
1:54
So I try to like poke him a little bit to let him know,
1:56
like he's actually really, really good at this.
1:59
But we really got to dig in on this podcast
2:01
on what he really enjoys about moderating,
2:05
why he enjoys moderating, why as a Christian,
2:07
he tries to be Switzerland,
2:09
he tries to just sit there in the middle of these conversations
2:11
and you know, what he does to kind of fight his urges
2:14
to want to just jump in and maybe save the Christian guy
2:17
or gal who's maybe not doing so well in the interview
2:20
or something like that, but also the book.
2:22
I thought the book was an incredibly accessible book
2:24
for most people and it's a book that,
2:26
if you're not like a big apologetics or theology nerd,
2:30
it's again, it's very accessible.
2:31
It's something that you can read.
2:33
It's something that you could even read with your kids
2:34
and get a better idea as to kind of what's going on
2:37
with some of these larger worldview topics.
2:40
And you know, it's going to be a little bit over
2:41
some of your kids' heads and most of our kids' heads,
2:43
but it just kind of is what it is.
2:44
But I really enjoyed spending time with him
2:46
because you get to go a little bit of a layer deeper
2:49
because when you're listening to his show,
2:50
he's just kind of again, the polite cordial moderator.
2:53
But in this interview, we got to dig down
2:55
in some more personal things.
2:56
So I really, really enjoyed that time.
2:57
So guys, without further ado, let's get into it.
3:00
Justin Briarly, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
3:05
- Thank you so much.
3:06
It's so great to be with you.
3:08
- I'm so happy you were the second guy from the UK
3:10
that we talked to.
3:11
We talked to a Welsh explorer.
3:12
So it's good to have some accents on our podcast.
3:15
And so I do want to give you the opportunity
3:18
to describe a little bit about what you do.
3:20
'Cause one of the things that I love to do on this show
3:21
is if there's an author or a show host or something,
3:24
it's always cool to hear them describe
3:26
what they've produced in their own words.
3:28
'Cause I've talked about the unbelievable radio show
3:30
and podcast a lot of times on this podcast.
3:33
I talk about it and refer people to it
3:34
as many times as I get the opportunity to do so.
3:37
But if you would briefly in your own words,
3:39
give us a rundown of what your show is all about
3:41
and why you decided to format it in the way that you did.
3:44
- Well, thank you so much for the invitation.
3:47
So I run a show and have been running a show
3:49
for, wow, 15 years actually called Unbelievable
3:53
with a question mark.
3:54
And it's all about bringing Christians
3:55
and non-Christians together in dialogue.
3:58
So it broadcasts actually on a Christian radio station
4:01
here in the UK, but it's really picked up
4:03
an international audience through the podcast.
4:05
We kind of got into the podcasting thing quite early on.
4:08
And so we actually have quite a diverse listenership
4:11
of both Christians and non-Christians across the world.
4:15
And it's very much about asking the questions.
4:18
Does Christianity make sense?
4:19
Can it stand up intellectually?
4:22
Is there evidence for God?
4:24
What about the history of Christianity,
4:26
the science and faith mix?
4:27
All of those kinds of questions we do on the show.
4:29
I sit down each week with different people
4:32
on both sides of these questions to debate them.
4:34
And yeah, it's been great.
4:37
It's been a great journey for me
4:38
as I've engaged with lots of atheists especially
4:41
along the way.
4:42
So we have a lot of atheist listeners now
4:44
all over the world.
4:46
But it led eventually to me writing a book as well about that.
4:50
It's called "Unbelievable,"
4:51
why after 10 years of talking with atheists,
4:53
I'm still a Christian.
4:54
So very much my case for Christian faith
4:58
and looking at some of the arguments and objections
5:01
for and against Christianity
5:02
that I've been dealt with on the show over the years.
5:05
And the show has kind of gone off in other directions too.
5:08
We were on a regular conference in London
5:12
and we've also done a few in the States as well
5:15
over the years.
5:16
We've got a special video debate series
5:17
called "The Big Conversation."
5:19
In fact, our next one begins this Easter actually.
5:22
So the very first episode of our third season
5:25
of "The Big Conversation,"
5:26
bringing some of the biggest Christian
5:27
and atheist thinkers together
5:29
for the biggest questions in life.
5:30
That begins on Good Friday.
5:32
So yeah, that's kind of what I do.
5:35
And I enjoy it.
5:37
It's always a challenge.
5:39
It's always stimulating.
5:40
And it's just enabled me to get to know
5:43
so many interesting people over the years as well.
5:45
- Right, and that's a great primer to the things that you do.
5:47
We're definitely gonna talk more about "The Big Conversation"
5:49
in your book, which I just finished here recently
5:51
and it's fantastic.
5:52
But one thing I did wanna kind of point out,
5:54
and I'm sure people appointed this out to you before,
5:56
I remember listening to some of your episodes
5:58
from years and years ago, right?
6:00
And it seemed like at that time,
6:03
'cause you typically do one, you know,
6:05
theist guest and one atheist guest.
6:07
That's typically how it works out.
6:09
But you seemed especially keen to jump in
6:12
into the debates a little bit earlier on
6:14
in your moderation career,
6:16
especially if the Christian guest was getting buried.
6:19
Like if they just weren't doing a good job,
6:22
it's like you couldn't help yourself a little bit,
6:23
but you don't really do that anymore.
6:26
You are a tremendously and almost like painfully good,
6:29
you know, moderator.
6:30
You are the Switzerland of moderators.
6:32
And so how hard is it for you to bite your tongue
6:36
during some of these debates?
6:38
- It is hard sometimes actually.
6:40
I've got to confess.
6:40
I mean, there's very often, as you say,
6:44
if you feel like, well, either side really is getting buried,
6:47
you kind of want to kind of stand up
6:49
for them a little bit.
6:50
But I am a Christian and I bring that with me
6:52
into the studio.
6:53
It's not like I can pretend I'm not a Christian,
6:55
though I do try as far as possible
6:57
to be that neutral person,
6:59
just making sure that both sides are heard,
7:01
both sides are brought out.
7:03
But yeah, I mean, it's interesting that you say,
7:06
you feel like it was earlier on in my career
7:08
that you've heard me kind of inserting myself more
7:11
into the conversations.
7:13
I guess I've always tried to make sure
7:15
that I'd bring the guests on
7:17
who are going to make the best case on either side.
7:20
And so I don't have to do that in a sense.
7:22
I must confess, I did quite recently, you know,
7:24
insert myself into one show.
7:26
We would, I was hosting a debate between
7:29
Guy called Dan Kimball, who's written a good book
7:31
on some of the hard parts of the Bible,
7:33
some of the most controversial passages in the Bible.
7:35
And I had him on with quite a hardened atheist guest
7:38
who came in to sort of debate that.
7:39
And Danny did a great job,
7:41
but there was a point of which I felt actually,
7:44
I really wanted to step in and ask some questions
7:46
that I didn't feel Dan was quite asking
7:48
about the subject, namely sort of how as an atheist,
7:53
what do they, is it within their rights
7:57
to criticize the Bible morally,
7:59
if there is no such thing as an objective moral standard
8:01
in the first place is a kind of philosophical issue.
8:03
But I kind of went in on that
8:05
and we did a bit of back and forth
8:06
and I ended up saying, oh, I'm sorry,
8:08
I shouldn't be the one debating you.
8:09
And I kind of handed it back to Dan,
8:11
but it's, so it's still a temptation to do that
8:13
because, you know, inevitably,
8:16
if you feel something hasn't quite been addressed,
8:18
you want to sort of try and do that yourself.
8:20
But I try and avoid it when I can.
8:22
- Well, I think you do a fantastic job of it
8:24
because there are a lot of times,
8:26
and you've mentioned this before,
8:27
and I think you mentioned it in your book,
8:28
there's a lot of people,
8:29
if they listen to your show for the first time,
8:30
they're not sure what you are and what you believe.
8:33
They're not sure that you're a Christian
8:34
or you're an atheist, they don't have any idea.
8:36
And so I think that lends itself well
8:38
to some of these conversations between people
8:40
that, you know, maybe the world isn't familiar with
8:42
all the way up to the big conversation
8:44
and maybe that's a good time to transition
8:45
to the big conversation.
8:47
You've had some real heavyweights debate on there.
8:50
You've had Jordan Peterson,
8:51
which is a huge guy for this podcast, "Listenership,"
8:55
but also Stephen Pinker and John Linux
8:57
and Daniel Dennett and in season two.
8:59
And then you said you're going into season three here soon.
9:03
Let's talk a little bit about the big conversation
9:05
and where did the idea come from
9:07
to really have these sit downs
9:08
between these enormously popular people?
9:11
Yeah, yeah, well, thank you.
9:12
I mean, the big conversation really is unbelievable,
9:15
but kind of with bells and whistles on in a way
9:17
because it was actually prompted by us wanting to,
9:22
we approached the Templeton Foundation,
9:26
which is a big grant-giving body in the US.
9:29
And I'd had loads of guests on the show
9:31
who had been funded by the Templeton Foundation
9:34
and they're interested in exploring science and faith
9:37
and the big questions of life and that kind of thing.
9:40
And we went to them with this proposal.
9:42
We'd like to put together a special video debate series
9:45
where we bring some of the biggest names out there
9:47
and we put them together in studio
9:50
and ask some of these big questions.
9:51
And thankfully they said yes
9:55
and it was particularly the funding for that
9:59
that allowed us to both be able to approach
10:01
some of those bigger names,
10:03
be able to bring people over,
10:05
be able to put on live events
10:06
and be able to kind of make sure it reaches
10:08
a wide audience as well.
10:09
So that was really part of the reason
10:11
was that we would be given the opportunity
10:13
through some funding for the show.
10:14
And yeah, and I think it's also just the fact
10:18
that the show has grown in popularity appeal,
10:21
has become more and more well known.
10:22
And so in that way, we were able to kind of, you know,
10:25
get up the guts to ask some of these really big names on.
10:28
I have to confess that the Jordan Peterson thing,
10:30
it was also just a lot of good luck as well in that case
10:33
because I had been hearing about Jordan Peterson
10:37
sort of in 2017.
10:39
He'd kind of, you know,
10:40
been become known for this stand he'd taken
10:43
against the enforced use of pronouns in Canada
10:45
and that kind of thing.
10:46
And people are being emailing me.
10:49
This was before he got really big saying,
10:51
"Oh, have you heard about this guy
10:51
"doing these biblical lectures?"
10:53
Really interesting sort of secular Canadian psychologist.
10:56
So he was kind of a little bit on my radar
10:58
and as I was then preparing to invite people
11:01
for this first season of the big conversation,
11:03
I had, I met up with an American friend
11:07
in London while he was over and he said,
11:09
"You've got to get this guy Jordan Peterson on your show."
11:11
So I said, "Okay, I'll try and make it happen
11:13
"for this big conversation season."
11:15
I emailed his publisher,
11:17
I realized he's got this book coming out
11:18
called "12 Rules for Life" and the publisher says to me,
11:22
she says, "Yeah, we should be able to fit you in.
11:24
"He's actually coming over to London in January
11:26
"for a bit of promotion for his book."
11:28
So I thought, "Fantastic, we'll get him in."
11:31
Well, as the date draws closer,
11:34
she starts emailing me saying,
11:35
"Ooh, this guy seems really popular.
11:37
"I hadn't expected how popular this guy is."
11:39
And she kept trying to whittle down the amount of time
11:41
I had because he was getting asked to do this interview
11:44
and that interview and suddenly they were booking out,
11:46
these big auditoriums for him.
11:49
And so finally, but I managed to keep like at least an hour
11:52
with him and this was her debate
11:54
with an 80s called Susan Blackmore.
11:56
And we actually filmed that in early January 2018,
12:00
just before he actually went kind of stratospheric
12:02
because it was just a couple of days after that recording
12:05
that he had that infamous interview
12:07
with Kathy Newman in the UK.
12:10
- Kathy Newman. - Julie Newman, news presenter.
12:12
And then he just like, pfft, it went crazy after that.
12:15
But I'd managed to bag my Peterson show just before that
12:19
and we held onto it until we released
12:20
this big conversation later in the year.
12:22
So yeah, a lot of people have discovered the show
12:24
because of that particular show.
12:27
- Yeah, and I would say, 'cause again,
12:29
I knew that was around the time of the Kathy Newman interview.
12:31
I wasn't sure it was that close.
12:33
But again, the thing that I like about this is
12:35
these are recognizable names.
12:36
These are people's whose names you recognize
12:38
from best-selling books.
12:40
And then they're coming and they're having these very cordial
12:42
but pointed conversations about everything, you know,
12:46
who we are, how did we get here?
12:47
Where are we gonna go when we die?
12:49
Like those foundational fundamental questions.
12:51
And in your book that you mentioned from the top of the show,
12:53
you go over a lot of those questions as well.
12:55
So again, the book is entitled "Unbelievable,"
12:57
why after 10 years of talking with atheists,
12:59
I'm still a Christian.
13:00
And so I would categorize it as a very accessible
13:03
apologetics book with a few sprinkles of autobiography
13:06
in there because I feel like you bring in your story
13:08
into the book as helpful.
13:10
But I did wanna point out one thing since we have
13:12
a little bit of limited time.
13:13
In the last chapter of your book,
13:15
there's a quote that I want you to kind of elucidate
13:17
further for our audience.
13:18
And I'll read the quote here.
13:19
It also feeds into the question that sometimes gets asked
13:22
by both atheists and Christians.
13:24
Why doesn't God simply make his existence obvious
13:27
to everyone?
13:28
If he is there, why does he hide himself?
13:31
Having devoted my life to hosting hundreds of debates
13:33
on the evidence, I've come to a rather shocking conclusion.
13:37
Maybe God isn't interested in people simply believing in him.
13:41
So go a little further on that because I felt like
13:44
of all the things to extrapolate from your book,
13:46
it was the arguments you were making there.
13:49
- That's interesting, yeah.
13:50
I mean, I come across this one frequently
13:52
and it's a fair question from many atheists.
13:55
Well, if God does want us to believe in him,
13:58
why doesn't he just make it undeniably true?
14:00
Why is he hidden himself in the way that he has
14:03
if he does exist?
14:04
And yeah, I'm increasingly, I've felt actually,
14:09
as I said, as you quote there in the book,
14:11
I don't think God is simply that interested
14:13
in us simply believing in him.
14:15
I mean, the Bible says even the demons believe
14:18
and tremble, but the point is what is God actually interested?
14:22
I think what God's interested in is us trusting in him,
14:25
loving him.
14:26
And that's a lot different to just believing in him.
14:29
I can believe that there's a cup of tea here in front of me.
14:33
It doesn't really make a lot of difference to my life though.
14:36
I don't have to put any trust in this.
14:38
You've got your coffee or whatever.
14:39
But it doesn't impact me a great deal.
14:43
Simply believing in things is giving your mental assent
14:47
that something exists really doesn't make much difference.
14:50
So, you know, I sometimes come across atheists as well.
14:55
I love my atheist friends and, you know,
14:58
the vast majority of my atheist friends and people
14:59
are highly respected and they're truthsy
15:02
'cause you know, they're genuinely looking for it.
15:04
But I do sometimes find atheists who say,
15:07
look, I would believe in God if he did,
15:11
if I had X, Y, Z proof, okay, and I'm buying okay.
15:17
And would you worship that God then
15:19
is sometimes my next question if I could, you know,
15:21
give you the evidence you need.
15:23
And that's a bit of a different question
15:26
to simply believing in God because actually,
15:28
when you worship something,
15:30
you have to feel like it's worthy of your worship.
15:33
And very often, an atheist would say,
15:35
well, no, I don't think I necessarily would worship that God
15:37
because this God would also have to satisfy X, Y, Z
15:41
other moral, you know, I couldn't believe in a God
15:43
who, you know, allows this or does that or whatever.
15:46
And the point is that at some point,
15:50
it's not about simply believing in God.
15:52
It's about whether you want that God in the first place,
15:55
I often feel.
15:56
I think there's often an underlying issue going on
16:00
about whether someone even wants there to be a God.
16:03
So it's kind of almost peripheral as to, you know,
16:07
just proving that that God exists.
16:08
The question is, does that person actually want that God
16:11
to exist?
16:11
Would it make a difference to their life
16:13
if that person did?
16:15
I think there's also a point here as well,
16:17
but God doesn't want to force himself on anyone
16:20
in the sense that I think there may be a case
16:23
for saying, God, there's a reason for God choosing
16:26
to remain hidden because, you know,
16:29
it would almost like take away our choice to trust in God
16:34
if you were kind of presented with God in a way
16:37
that's completely undeniable.
16:39
It's almost as though, you know,
16:40
God would be forcing God's self on everyone.
16:43
And I think God doesn't do that.
16:45
I think God sort of invites people to trust
16:48
and invites them into a relationship.
16:50
And that is a bit different.
16:51
And if you were sort of making your existence so obvious
16:55
that it could be, it couldn't be denied,
16:57
I think that would somehow for me be a problem
17:00
for people genuinely being able to choose God
17:04
if they wanted to.
17:05
- Well, and that's the argument that C.S. Lewis makes
17:07
in mere Christianity where he talks about, you know,
17:09
a world full of automatons.
17:11
It's not a world worth creating.
17:12
And by the way, it's not coffee.
17:14
It is tea 'cause I knew I was talking
17:15
to a proper Englishman this morning.
17:17
So, but no, that totally makes sense.
17:19
But it brings up a point since we've already been talking
17:21
about Jordan Peterson.
17:22
He's been asked, you know, a million times,
17:24
do you believe in God?
17:25
You know, do you believe in, you know, a deity?
17:27
- Yeah, I asked him as well, yeah.
17:29
- Right.
17:30
And one of the best times that I feel like he gave that answer,
17:33
he got so choked up because he's like,
17:34
if you actually believe that,
17:36
can you imagine what your life would be like?
17:38
And I think for a lot of people, it's like,
17:40
they want to conveniently be able to box their theism
17:42
or atheism, categorically.
17:44
But it's like, no, no, no, no.
17:45
This is not a category of your life.
17:47
It's your life.
17:48
It's the only question because here's the thing is,
17:50
as a theist, as a follower of Jesus Christ,
17:53
if I'm wrong about all of this, you know,
17:55
I've wasted about 10% of my money.
17:57
I've wasted time going to church.
17:58
I've wasted time talking to you and reading your book.
18:00
But if you're wrong as an atheist, it's everything.
18:04
You know what I mean?
18:05
Like that, like, that's what's on the line
18:07
of one of us being wrong.
18:08
But here we go, I'm preaching.
18:09
This is your interview.
18:10
Let's move on because this is a question
18:12
from the very beginning when I knew we were going to do
18:14
this interview that I wanted to ask you.
18:15
So it's a two-part question.
18:17
So I want to know if you could hold a debate,
18:20
if you could moderate a debate between any two living people
18:24
that have not been on your show yet,
18:26
and I have a guess as to who that would be,
18:28
I want to know that.
18:29
And then I want to know the second part of the question,
18:32
if you could moderate a debate between any two people
18:35
in history, regardless of the language they speak, right?
18:38
So let's just assume you can understand what they're saying
18:40
if they, for whatever reason, didn't speak English.
18:43
So the debate between two people that are alive
18:45
that haven't been on the show yet,
18:46
and the debate of all time.
18:48
And I do have a guess for both,
18:49
but I'll let you know if I was right afterwards.
18:52
- Wow, wow, what a question, gosh.
18:54
Okay, so two living people who haven't yet been on the show.
18:58
- Yep.
18:59
- Oh, well, on the atheist side,
19:02
if it's an atheist Christian debate,
19:05
I would probably have to go for someone like Sam Harris,
19:10
maybe he's kind of been the one that got away so far,
19:14
very, very well-known atheist.
19:16
Huge, huge audience as well.
19:19
So in a way, it's partially just 'cause I'd love
19:22
to kind of tap into all those Sam Harris fans
19:24
and introduce them to the show as well.
19:26
But I think he's a fascinating person,
19:28
and I'd love to get him on the show at some point.
19:31
Who would I put him into conversation with though?
19:32
That's the big question, isn't it?
19:36
- I've had most of the kind of big Christian intellectuals
19:41
on the show at this point,
19:43
so I'd be tempted to go back to what I was looking at.
19:46
- Let's change it a little bit.
19:48
- Yeah, go ahead.
19:48
- Right, so let's change it a little bit.
19:50
So Sam Harris is your new one.
19:51
So who would you wanna put opposite of Sam Harris?
19:53
You can put anybody.
19:54
- I could put anyone, okay, all right.
19:56
I would love to hear Sam Harris maybe engage
20:00
with someone like a Tim Keller.
20:02
I think that would be a really interesting discussion
20:04
to put them together.
20:06
I think there is some fascinating other people like,
20:11
he's coming on my show soon, actually,
20:13
for this first season of the big conversation.
20:14
But Bishop Robert Barron, I think,
20:16
is a really interesting Christian thinker
20:19
with a huge audience and doing really interesting things.
20:22
So there's someone else that I think would be
20:25
a great match up for someone like Harris.
20:27
But yeah, something like that.
20:32
I don't know, would you tune in for that?
20:33
Would that be one that you'd watch?
20:37
- Of course, because one of the things,
20:38
and I wanna make sure I get the second part of the question,
20:40
the thing about Sam Harris is I feel like he's the least
20:43
genuine of the new atheist because he doesn't scream as loudly.
20:47
And so all the other ones are bombastic and rah,
20:50
and they're very aggressive.
20:51
He's not very aggressive, but he's very smug.
20:54
He's very a matter of fact.
20:56
And so not only does he come off as a dummy
20:58
because of his arguments, he comes off as a very,
21:01
very smug elitist at the same time.
21:03
And so I am not a fan of Sam Harris.
21:06
Now I do approve of some of the ways
21:08
that he takes people down, like when Ben Affleck
21:10
was jumping down his throat on the Bill Marshall,
21:13
he just dismantled him by being calm.
21:14
And so in that way, I respect him,
21:16
but I don't find his arguments to be incredibly compelling.
21:19
But so that's what you would do for the two of the people.
21:23
- There were others I was sort of on the edge of as well.
21:26
I'd love to get Steven Fry on the show.
21:30
He's a well-known character here in the UK as well.
21:32
And in a sense, has a much more of a kind of general public
21:36
know who Steven Fry is.
21:38
And I'd love to have him on because you probably remember
21:42
in that video of him kind of berating God
21:44
what he would say to God if he went to heaven.
21:47
That kind of did the rounds a few years ago.
21:49
And I've never really seen him have a proper conversation
21:51
on that, so it'd be great fun to get him
21:53
in conversation with someone.
21:54
I have approached him a few times,
21:57
but it's always a very polite reply of no,
22:01
basically, so one day, who knows, who knows.
22:05
- All right, so now we got to get to your all-time
22:08
moderation debate.
22:09
So any two people in history, you're in between them.
22:12
You got three microphones.
22:14
Who's talking?
22:15
- Okay, so maybe in recent history,
22:21
if it was an atheist-Christian matchup,
22:25
I would love to see someone like C.S. Lewis versus,
22:30
I don't know, Nietzsche, or someone like that.
22:35
Some kind of incredible, that would be like,
22:39
the debate of the decade, wouldn't it,
22:41
to two people of that kind of stature.
22:43
I mean, if I'm allowed to go even further back,
22:45
I mean, who wouldn't want to see the apostle Paul
22:48
in Athens doing his thing?
22:51
Maybe opposite one of the great Roman philosophers
22:54
or Greek philosophers, Aristotle Plato, who knows.
22:59
If I've really got my choice of any ancient figure,
23:02
that would just be extraordinary, wouldn't it,
23:04
to see that kind of a matchup.
23:07
And I love reading that passage in Acts 17,
23:11
where you see Paul debating the thinkers of the day
23:14
in Athens, because that's kind of what I feel like
23:17
unbelievable is trying to do today in our generation.
23:21
But gosh, wouldn't it have been great
23:22
to have been in the crowd that day and see what happened there.
23:25
- Yeah, it would have been unbelievable.
23:26
I mean, I had a feeling you might say Paul,
23:28
but I really thought you would say C.S. Lewis,
23:30
because I feel like C.S. Lewis wrote about 15% of your book,
23:34
because you've called a C.S. Lewis so many times.
23:37
But as, so here's the thing, as a C.S. Lewis fan,
23:39
we have a book list on our website called 100 Books,
23:43
Every Modern Christian Man Should Read.
23:45
And we've got 15 different categories.
23:46
We have leadership and business, we have marriage,
23:48
we have money.
23:49
There's an entire section called C.S. Lewis.
23:51
He has his own section on the book list.
23:54
And so that's how important I think his writing is to us.
23:57
But yeah, I mean, a C.S. Lewis versus a Nietzsche
23:59
or a Karl Marx or someone like that,
24:02
I feel like that would have just been absolutely incredible.
24:04
But we are gonna drop down out of the world
24:06
of make believe now and come back down to the real world.
24:09
And so I feel like this question is gonna summarize
24:11
some of the other questions I wanted to ask you.
24:13
And it's, let's say this was the end of your career today.
24:16
Hopefully not, hopefully I don't get you in trouble
24:18
on this podcast so much that your career's over.
24:20
You know what I mean? Let's say today was the end
24:22
of your career and you could leave just one of your debates
24:27
that you've moderated for humanity.
24:30
So everything else that you've produced up to this point
24:33
gone in an instant, but you can leave one
24:35
that represents just and brierly, unbelievable,
24:39
premier Christian radio, whatever you wanna do.
24:41
What is that one debate that you feel like defines
24:45
what you've done up to this point?
24:47
I'm making you pick your favorite children.
24:48
- I know, I understand that. - Yeah, gosh.
24:51
Oh man, man, the trouble is actually just remembering them
24:54
all as well.
24:56
There's been like nearly 800 of them now.
24:58
So I'm kind of, I'm really struggling to think what,
25:03
what were they all and, you know, what,
25:07
I mean, there were ones that kind of, you know,
25:09
stick in the memory as really interesting,
25:12
great discussions between interesting people.
25:18
I mean, ah, this is really tough.
25:20
I mean, one of the ones I enjoyed the most,
25:22
and again, I'm probably just picking this
25:24
'cause it's happened in the last couple of years
25:26
and there were probably more if I wrapped my memory
25:30
going further back, but one of the ones I enjoyed most
25:32
was actually bringing John Lennox and Dave Rubin together.
25:36
We did that out in California in October 2019.
25:39
- Great interview.
25:40
That was great.
25:41
- Part of our big conversation season too.
25:43
And it was just very different because Dave Rubin
25:48
was so lovely, so very open and willing to basically
25:52
be grilled by me and the audience as well
25:55
in their questions.
25:56
And you just got the sense actually he was really
26:00
genuinely open to the idea that maybe there is a God
26:04
and maybe that God can be known.
26:06
And that kind of allowed us to go to a level
26:08
you don't normally go to in these debates.
26:10
Very often you do end up just at the conceptual
26:12
analytical debate level.
26:14
And there's a place for that.
26:16
That's where a lot of people are.
26:17
But it's really interesting sometimes to move beyond that
26:20
and to be able to actually say,
26:23
kind of engage more at an emotional, personal level.
26:26
And I feel that's what happened in that discussion.
26:27
And there was just, it was such an electric atmosphere
26:30
in the room when we did that thing live
26:33
with the audience there.
26:35
People were just on the edge of their seats
26:37
because there was a real sense that we were really
26:39
digging into a genuine sort of heartfelt conversation
26:45
on stuff that really mattered.
26:47
So it had an intellectual edge to it, obviously.
26:49
But it felt as much like John was really helping us
26:52
to engage some of the deepest desires
26:56
that Dave Rubin has.
26:57
And he just said some really interesting things.
27:00
He talked more than I'd heard him ever talk before
27:02
about his own spiritual journey, if you like,
27:05
where he'd gone from being sort of in the new atheist
27:08
or sort of camp to actually now essentially
27:10
rejecting the label Ateus saying that he's really
27:13
on this journey seeking.
27:13
He obviously talked at some length about the way Peterson
27:16
had influenced him as well in that.
27:18
So yeah, if I was forced to choose off the top of my head,
27:22
that might be a contender for the one to leave behind.
27:25
Well, the Irishman in me really likes the fact
27:28
that you picked one of John Linuxes.
27:30
So that was really helpful.
27:32
But I do want to, as we wind down our interview here,
27:34
there's a segment of our show that I love to do called,
27:37
"What would you say to someone that said?"
27:39
And then I fill in the blank with a statement.
27:42
And this might be a big statement,
27:43
it might be a small statement, but this is lightning round.
27:46
You have 30 seconds or less to give us your answer.
27:49
So we're going to strip away all the niceties,
27:51
we're getting just to the meat and potatoes.
27:53
So what do you say, yep for it?
27:54
- Yeah, so to remind me what I'm doing again,
27:56
I have to just insert something.
27:59
- Well, so basically, I'm going to say,
28:00
what would you say to someone that said,
28:02
oranges are the best fruit?
28:03
And you just have to give your opinion,
28:05
your answer to that in a little 30 second or less, John.
28:08
- Okay, all right, just my, off the top of my head,
28:11
immediate answer, I'll do my best.
28:14
I can't guarantee it'll make any sense, but I'll try.
28:16
Okay. - That's all right.
28:17
All right, here we go, let's try the first one.
28:19
What would you say to someone that said,
28:21
Justin Briarley is a wonderful moderator?
28:23
- I'd say, thank you very much.
28:26
I'm so glad you think that.
28:27
I don't always do a very good job,
28:29
but if you say I do, I'm very happy to accept that compliment.
28:32
- All right, what would you say to someone that said,
28:35
Justin Briarley is a terrible moderator?
28:37
- I would agree with you that often I am,
28:40
and there are many times when I've done a terrible job
28:43
of moderating debates, but please judge me in the hole
28:47
rather than by the last one you watched,
28:49
which obviously went very badly.
28:51
- That's very humble of you, but yeah, I appreciate that.
28:53
All right, let's keep going.
28:55
What would you say to someone that said,
28:57
Richard Dawkins is legitimately scared
28:59
to debate William Lane Craig?
29:03
- I'd say I think there may be some truth in that
29:06
because when we have ever invited him to debate anyone really
29:10
who's actually got the intellectual ability
29:12
to answer his issues, he's always turned us down.
29:16
And he's debated other people who frankly are easy wins.
29:21
So yes, I think you're telling the truth, sir.
29:26
I would say at that point.
29:27
- All right, Roger, that next one here.
29:29
What would you say to someone that said,
29:31
I'm not smart enough to engage in a debate
29:33
with someone about my faith?
29:35
- I'd say that's fine because ultimately talking
29:42
to someone about your faith is not ultimately
29:45
about winning an argument.
29:47
It's fine to say to someone, I don't know if they ask you
29:51
something or they challenge you with something
29:53
which you don't know, but just be truthful.
29:56
But say, I'd love to continue the conversation.
29:58
Let me go away, do some reading, find out a bit more,
30:00
and let's return.
30:02
Don't let fear stop you from continuing conversation.
30:07
And ultimately, people are just as interested in
30:09
the way you say things and the way you live your life
30:11
as your intellectual arguments as well.
30:15
- Right, I think that actually dovetails nicely
30:16
into the next one.
30:17
What would you say to someone that said,
30:19
apologists are more concerned about being right
30:22
than they are about serving people?
30:24
- I would say, unfortunately, you're probably true
30:28
a lot of the time, and it's one of the great dangers
30:30
of apologetics that we can make an idol
30:33
out of our intellectual arguments.
30:36
And ultimately, I don't think people ever are argued
30:39
into the kingdom of God.
30:40
Now, intellectual arguments dismantling some objections
30:43
may be a key part of someone's journey towards faith.
30:46
But ultimately, if the way you act towards them
30:50
isn't an example that they would like,
30:53
if what you're showing them isn't attractive
30:56
in the first place, people aren't gonna listen
30:58
to your arguments in the first place.
30:59
So I would say, yeah, we need to be people
31:01
who have good intellectual arguments,
31:03
but also lives that actually look like Jesus.
31:05
- Absolutely, just a few more here.
31:07
What would you say to someone that said,
31:09
in the end, a loving God couldn't possibly
31:12
send anyone to hell?
31:13
- I would say, yeah, I think I'd agree with that.
31:20
I don't think a loving God does send anyone to hell.
31:22
My view is that people choose it for themselves.
31:27
If there is a hell, the only reason people are there
31:30
is because they didn't want what God was offering.
31:33
And I believe in freedom.
31:34
I believe that some people choose that.
31:36
Now, it's a great mystery.
31:39
And you may think, well, why on earth
31:40
would anyone choose hell over God?
31:42
But actually, when I look around me,
31:44
I see a lot of people who choose to live lives
31:48
that are self-contained, selfish,
31:52
people who, if they were asked to bow
31:55
before anything other than themselves would struggle
31:58
to do that.
31:59
So for me, I don't believe in a God who sends people to hell.
32:03
I believe in people who choose it for themselves.
32:05
- All right, great answer, a couple more here.
32:08
What would you say to someone that said,
32:10
many people worship pastors more than they worship Jesus?
32:13
- I'd say there's probably a lot of truth in that, sadly,
32:18
because unfortunately, a lot of Western Christianity
32:22
is built kind of as a bit of a copy of the culture,
32:27
which is a very celebrity-driven culture right now.
32:30
And so that's the way often ministries and platforms
32:33
are built on a similar kind of celebrity-driven culture.
32:36
I think there are people out there with big platforms
32:39
who do use it wisely and humbly.
32:41
But unfortunately, it's very easy to fall into the trap
32:44
of following an individual rather than following Jesus.
32:47
And I think some of the most recent scandals
32:50
in the Christian world have taught us just how dangerous
32:52
that is, Ravi Zacharias and other key Christian leaders
32:55
who have fallen from grace.
32:57
It's a stark reminder that we need to be pointing people
33:00
towards Jesus and not to ourselves.
33:02
- Absolutely.
33:03
All right, Justin, the last and maybe the most important
33:06
question of the day, what would you say to someone that said,
33:09
talking with a British accent doesn't actually make you smarter?
33:13
- I would say, of course it does.
33:16
Can't you hear just how smart I am
33:18
by this amazing accent I have?
33:21
I've been told by all of my U.S. friends,
33:23
it makes me 50% smarter just speaking with this accent.
33:26
So I'm gonna claim that and I won't hear any different, Kyle.
33:30
All right?
33:31
- Hey, fair enough.
33:32
And if you need me to refer to you as sir,
33:35
Justin Briarly from now on, I can certainly do so.
33:37
And I gave you your partner over there,
33:39
Ruth Jackson, a compliment the other day.
33:41
I complimented her on her voice.
33:42
And she said, hey, people over here don't compliment my voice.
33:45
I should spend more time in the States.
33:47
Anytime either of you wanna come over and hang out with us,
33:49
we would surely love to have you.
33:51
- Yeah.
33:52
My serious answer to that though, Kyle,
33:53
is of course it doesn't make me any more intelligent,
33:56
but if it gives the impression I'll use whatever I can.
33:59
So yeah, thank you very much.
34:01
- I will absolutely take that.
34:02
Well, Justin, I really appreciate all your time
34:04
and we have gone all over the place,
34:05
but that is all for me.
34:07
Is there anything else you wanna get off your chest?
34:10
- Well, I would just say if you're interested in the show,
34:13
you can find it, you know, just search up in podcasts,
34:15
unbelievable, you should find it.
34:17
But yeah, do look out for our forthcoming season
34:19
of the big conversation.
34:20
Kicks off on Friday the 2nd of April.
34:23
You can download it on our podcast.
34:25
You'll be able to watch it
34:26
on our unbelievable YouTube channel as well.
34:29
And you can go to thebigconversation.show
34:31
to get signed up and make sure that you don't miss it.
34:34
We're kicking off with a great debate
34:36
between Bishop Robert Barron,
34:37
who's a big thinker out there,
34:39
and a well-known atheist YouTuber called Cosmic Skeptics.
34:42
So that's one not to be missed.
34:44
It begins soon.
34:46
And if you want more from me,
34:47
indeed, we've got signed copies of the book
34:50
and even a free kind of audible,
34:52
you get free audio book with an audible trial
34:54
and that kind of thing.
34:55
The easiest place to go these days
34:57
is my personal website as well,
34:58
which is JustinBriley.com to find out more.
35:01
- All right, guys, we will have all of those links
35:03
in the show notes, but for now, Justin Briarley,
35:05
thanks for coming on Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
35:08
- Thank you, Kyle.
35:09
Great to be with you.
35:10
(upbeat music)
35:14
There you go, guys.
35:14
If you enjoyed my time with Justin Briarley, guys,
35:16
I really enjoyed the conversation I had with him
35:18
and it potentially might lead to some other interesting things
35:20
that we're gonna be doing with the unbelievable show.
35:22
So make sure you stay on the lookout for that.
35:24
But guys, before we let you go,
35:25
we are gonna do a quick, resilient boost.
35:27
As you know, by now, we are a men's ministry
35:28
and our mission is cultivating manly resilience.
35:31
And specifically, we do that by providing you content
35:33
like this podcast that helps you forge spiritual, mental,
35:37
and physical resilience and toughness.
35:38
So guys, the links I have for you today,
35:40
I've got Justin Briarley's website.
35:42
So it's just JustinBriarley.com.
35:44
I've also got a link to the Unbelievable Show website.
35:46
And then there's also an American website
35:48
so you can check that out as well.
35:49
And then there's an Amazon link to his book Unbelievable.
35:51
And then there's the big conversation website.
35:53
So guys, you should really spend some time
35:55
with those conversations because, I mean,
35:57
it's kind of in the name.
35:57
They are big conversations.
35:59
These are incredibly big topics with these huge people
36:03
that are huge in the areas that they study
36:06
and they're great intellectuals.
36:08
And it's amazing that they were able to get these people
36:10
in the same room to have these discussions.
36:12
So you should definitely spend some time with that.
36:14
All right guys, thanks so much for listening to the show.
36:15
Really do appreciate it.
36:16
If you would, please subscribe wherever you're listening
36:18
to this and if we deserve a five-star review,
36:20
please go ahead and leave us one.
36:21
I'm currently booking speaking engagements
36:23
for the remainder of 2021.
36:24
So if you want to come speak at your team,
36:26
at your men's event, on your podcast,
36:27
just hit me up info at undaunted.life.
36:29
That's I-N-F-O at undaunted.life.
36:32
The website is www. undaunted.life.
36:34
You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter
36:36
at undauntedlife or facebook.com/ undauntedlife.
36:39
Check out our free devotionals
36:40
on the YouVersion Bible app to search undaunted life
36:43
under plans and as always,
36:44
we want to thank the band August Burns Red
36:46
for allowing us to use their entire music library
36:48
for our content.
36:49
The Entrautto Track on this podcast is our song Defender,
36:52
which is off their latest record entitled Guardians.
36:54
The links are in the description.
36:56
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
36:58
Remember, keep cultivating manly resilience,
37:01
keep forging spiritual, mental and physical toughness,
37:05
keep seeking the lion of Judah.
37:08
♪ I need a defender ♪
37:12
♪ My voices say ♪
37:14
♪ That you're the queen ♪
37:17
♪ I need a defender ♪
37:20
♪ Open the grave ♪
37:22
♪ In one place ♪