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0:48
This is on Daunton Life, a man's podcast.
0:50
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:52
Let's get into it.
0:53
Our guys today, we've got a very special guest on the podcast.
0:55
His name is T.W.
0:56
Shannon.
0:57
He certainly serves as the president and CEO of Chickasaw Community Bank and is the
1:01
state highway commissioner for Central Oklahoma.
1:03
Back in 2006, he was elected to the Oklahoma House of Representatives and in 2013, he became
1:09
the youngest and the first black person to be the Speaker of the House for the state
1:12
of Oklahoma.
1:13
In 2017, he was selected as a fellow for the Institute of Politics at Harvard Kennedy
1:18
School.
1:19
He also got his Juris Doctorate from Oklahoma City University and he was a recent guest on
1:23
the Dan Crenshaw podcast.
1:25
So for those of you that listen to that podcast, you're going to recognize that name.
1:28
But he and I share a hometown of lot in Oklahoma.
1:30
You guys have heard me talk about lot in Oklahoma before.
1:33
We're friends.
1:34
This is a guy that I've seen do some pretty amazing things.
1:37
He's currently affiliated with the Trump administration in terms of the Trump campaign, trying to
1:41
get elected for 2020.
1:43
But this is a guy who has an incredible ability to speak straight to conservative causes.
1:48
So this is going to be a slightly more political podcast and some of the other interviews that
1:52
we've done certainly.
1:53
But I want you guys to make sure that you listen to this interview because of how TW describes
1:58
issues because I asked him some hard questions today.
2:01
And whenever I do these interviews, I'm trying to be fair, but I do want to ask questions
2:04
that are a little bit more difficult that aren't as puffy as the ones that they may get on the
2:08
news or something like that.
2:09
I wanted to kind of dig a little bit deeper.
2:11
But this is also a guy that he takes his time and he lets the ideas kind of flow from his
2:16
experience and the things that he's done.
2:18
This is a tremendous man of God.
2:20
We talked about a lot of different things in this episode, and I think it will actually
2:24
lead to future episodes where we talk about different things.
2:26
But we're kind of in this interesting spot in the country where we're so close to the
2:30
next election.
2:31
There's seemingly so much on the line.
2:33
There's people saying, oh, it's not really that big a deal.
2:35
And we have people saying this is everything and it's all consuming, but he has a pretty
2:39
amazing way of characterizing things in a way that's not going to get you super crazy
2:44
fired up, but will allow you to have a very sober minded view on a lot of topics that
2:49
are incredibly, incredibly controversial.
2:51
So I mean, we talked about communism, Marxism.
2:53
We talked about racism in the United States.
2:55
We talked about Donald Trump and Joe Biden and what that means for the country.
2:58
But guys, you're not going to want to miss this interview, but without further ado, let's
3:02
get into it.
3:03
T. W. Shannon, welcome to Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
3:08
Oh, Kyle, thank you for having me.
3:09
It's an honor, man.
3:10
Yeah, it's been a while.
3:11
I'm senior in person, but we can blame COVID for that, but we're going to go ahead and launch
3:14
in here.
3:15
And here's the funny thing is you and I were actually supposed to have this conversation
3:19
a week ago, I was in my studio, I had everything set up, I was ready to go, and then I get
3:24
a message saying that you weren't available.
3:26
But the reason for it is going to play into a lot of what we're going to be talking about
3:30
today.
3:31
So why, why are we having this conversation a week late?
3:34
So you know, the reason we were, you know, not able to keep our original commitment and
3:39
I apologize for that.
3:40
I was actually I was blessed to get to go to the White House last week and hear the president
3:47
on the final day of the Republican convention, I was there on the White House law and listen
3:51
to the president give his acceptance speech and you and I were scheduled for the following
3:56
day, I was going to do it from the airport.
4:00
But my challenge was the protest that happened, my Uber driver, we couldn't get out because
4:08
there were protests everywhere.
4:11
And the, and the usual routes were all because they were so limited that the traffic, you
4:18
know, kept me from making my flights.
4:19
I wanted to miss in my flight as a result.
4:22
And that's why I called you to reschedule.
4:23
I felt terrible about it and I asked you grace and forgiveness now.
4:29
Well, you, you can absolutely have my grace and forgiveness.
4:32
The funny thing about it is as soon as I got your message, I was like, this actually
4:35
kind of goes in to part of what we're going to be talking about, which is just kind of
4:38
the state of the country that we're in because the thing is, and I said this in the intro,
4:42
but you and I are from the same town, Lawton, Oklahoma, which it's a surprise to most people
4:46
that a small town in Southwest Oklahoma can be so diverse, but we've obviously had a very
4:51
diverse upbringing, but that kind of plays into your conservatism in terms of your upbringing.
4:57
But the thing is T.W., right from the jump, you know, we're just going to go right after
5:00
it is black men like yourself are just not supposed to be conservatives, you know, air quotes
5:05
around the word supposed to be. So why do you think most people have that viewpoint and
5:11
why did you become the way that you are in terms of how you think about the world and
5:15
how you think about politics?
5:17
You know, Kyle, I've been asked this question before and in your right, there is a certain
5:24
box that, you know, often the media and even, you know, modern kind of secular humanist
5:30
society likes to put African American men in. But my reality is that I grew up there in
5:37
Lawton like you did. And I was a member of Bethlehem Baptist Church, a predominantly
5:42
African American church. And unlike a lot of liberals, I didn't wait to college to kind
5:47
of get my conservative values. And I didn't get them from a college. I got my conservative
5:52
values from my church. I mean, you know, where I went to church, I was surrounded by men and
5:58
women who love the Lord, who believe that you shouldn't borrow more than you can pay
6:03
back. You, you know, you owe a debt to the society that that has done so much for you.
6:10
But there is also a culture of personal responsibility. I learned that in my predominantly African
6:15
American church. And so when I when I became an adult, and I started really given thought
6:22
to, you know, the political process and, and where my values lined up, it was really easy
6:28
for me. I mean, as a, as a, as a, as a believer, somebody who God saved at an early age, always
6:35
knew that, you know, I was here that there was a purpose that God had a purpose for me
6:40
that I wasn't a result of some hopping circumstance or that, you know, my life was just kind of
6:47
meandering through. I knew there was a purpose. I didn't know what that purpose was exactly.
6:52
But I knew there was one. And it has been an amazing adventure discovering that purpose
6:58
each and every day. So that has been a joy for my life. But answer your question. My conservative
7:04
values came from my church home, from my, from my Christian upbringing.
7:08
One to that end, I know that's where a lot of people kind of get those ideas because
7:12
there's nothing to conserve if you don't have a center point, if you don't have an anchor
7:15
point that you can point to. But for you, and I've heard you talk about this before,
7:19
but I think it'll be interesting to our, to our listeners. A lot of our listeners are
7:23
concerned about, you know, Hollywood and the university system and the public schooling
7:27
system and kind of what that's doing to people. It seems like many conservatives are just kind
7:31
of fighting for the scraps of culture, I guess would be a way of saying it. So from
7:35
your perspective, what is the future of the conservative movement in the United States?
7:41
Because a lot of conservatives myself included are a little concerned about what we see on
7:45
my horizon. Yeah, you know, and I'm always concerned too. It always looks as if we're
7:53
losing, right? That we've got this, you know, this, this, this world culture that has a different
8:00
world view than us and, and that somehow, you know, we're behind the, we're behind the
8:06
times. But I tell you what gives me a lot of hope. I get a chance to speak a few times
8:10
around the country at different college campuses. And I will tell you, people, the conservative
8:16
movement is still very, very strong. And I think even in what's happened with this COVID
8:23
and government shutdowns around the country, I think people are really reevaluating this,
8:30
this march towards socialism that this country was headed down. I mean, you think about this,
8:34
well, it wasn't, but a few months ago, where every American was waking up, and I was said
8:43
around March or April, waiting to hear from their local elected mayor, whether they were
8:49
essential or non essential, meaning, are you able to go earn a living for your family or
8:55
you can't? We were waking up listening to, you know, jurisdictions around the country
9:02
tell us that, you know, we weren't allowed to gather in crowds of more than 10 people,
9:07
which of course, you and I both know, there's really only one institution whose model is
9:12
based around, you know, you know, meeting and congregating once a week. And that's the church.
9:19
Right.
9:20
Essentially churches were shut down. And so I think a lot of people who didn't think about
9:24
this kind of stuff, most people don't, most people aren't like you and me, they're not
9:28
political junkies or constitutionalists or, you know, most people are, you know, too
9:33
busy, you know, frankly, trying to earn a living for their family and put food on the
9:37
table and live their life. But I think even those folks had to stop and think, now wait
9:42
a minute, what is the role of government? I don't know if my mayor should be telling
9:46
me if I can go make a living for my family, if I can. And so I guess what I'm telling
9:51
is I'm optimistic about the future. I'm optimistic that, you know, and obviously we're in the
9:59
of an election right now and election season. And I think this election will be very telling
10:04
about the future of this country. Because I think the stakes have never been higher.
10:09
And I think the contrast between the two candidates has never been greater. Either we're going
10:14
to adopt this Marxist, European socialist model of government or we're going to continue
10:20
to be the city shining on an hill that embraces liberty and freedom. So I'm optimistic about
10:26
the future. But I think we need to do our part to grow our party. We have to make sure
10:31
we're doing our part to reach out to other groups that historically we haven't. Because
10:36
ultimately we have the solutions that are facing minority groups in particular, but
10:43
especially those groups that have been disenfranchised from the society as a whole conservatism,
10:48
it still works. Well, I appreciate your optimism because I find myself being very pessimistic
10:53
about a lot of things. But I do want to go ahead and dovetail into what you brought up,
10:57
which is the election that we have coming up because it seems like every four years we're
11:00
being told that this election, this is the one, this is the one that sets the foundation
11:04
for the future. But I think you'd be hard pressed to argue against your point about the
11:08
vast difference between Trump and Biden. And honestly, Biden, I don't think he's as far
11:12
left as he's portraying, but he knows he can't win the democratic support unless he goes
11:16
farther left. But just generically, what are your thoughts on the matchup between Trump
11:21
and Biden? And as of the recording of this podcast, we're about 70 days out from the
11:26
election.
11:27
Yeah, well, I think, I think it's pretty clear. And I think you're right, there is the old
11:31
Joe Biden that people knew, you know, he was still left to center. But, you know, I think
11:38
the question is that Joe Biden doesn't exist anymore. I mean, the Joe Biden that we see
11:42
today has fully adopted the socialist mantle. You know, you look at, you know, what he's
11:49
pushing in the adoption of AOC's Green New Deal and the way that, you know, he's embraced
11:56
Bernie Sanders and where even Barack Obama a couple of weeks said, there's not a whole
12:01
lot of difference between Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders. I mean, that was Barack Obama, Obama
12:06
talking. So, you know, my thoughts are, is that that party has been completely hijacked
12:14
by the extreme left. I think, you know, you look at the looting and riding that's happened
12:20
around the country. You know, it took Joe Biden. Here's an example. If you think I'm
12:26
wrong, you know, there has been looting in Portland, Oregon, and riding in violence for
12:34
70 plus days now. I think we're on day 75 or 76. Joe Biden didn't even speak about it
12:42
until like day 73. You know, the president has been on television. He's been on social
12:49
media saying reaching out to liberal Democrat mayors who have fell their cities whose cities
12:56
are on fire. And he's made the case that he's willing to come in and be support with and
13:04
be be a support with the National Guard if invited. And I appreciate the president's approach.
13:09
I'm a constitutionalist and I'm glad he recognizes that we're a federalist society that the
13:15
federal government can't just come in whenever it feels like it even when it's needed. They
13:20
still have to work through the appropriate sovereigns that that exists there. But it
13:26
took Joe Biden 73 days before he even mentioned the violence. And I think that's just one
13:31
example of how different those candidates are. And the reality is this, I fundamentally
13:37
believe that the greater the freedom, the greater the wealth, and what has kept America,
13:44
the city shining on a hill, it's not just that we've been blessed with amazing resources
13:51
than we have. It's not just that we've been given, you know, a great deal of I think God's
13:59
a grace because we have. It's because we've kept this place safe and we've kept it a place
14:06
where liberty can survive. And if, for me, it's always about the promulgation of the
14:14
gospel, right? It's how do you get the gospel spread around the world? And I don't think
14:19
we need to adopt a theocracy. I'm not, I'm not for government mandated, enforced religion.
14:25
I don't want government telling me how and where to worship. But I do want government
14:30
to keep it safe where I can express my freedom of religion, where I can exercise my constitutional
14:36
right to worship and assembly. And that I think is what has created the greatest society
14:42
known to man. It's really the promulgation of the gospel around the world. And it's
14:47
never been freer than it is in America. I think that's the real battle that we're fighting.
14:52
Our enemy is not flesh and blood, but, you know, we know our enemy. It's spiritual wickedness,
14:58
right?
14:59
And to that end, TW, we've seen some infringements on that. And there's some forthcoming decisions
15:04
by the Supreme Court, which will make that even more apparent, potentially. But even
15:08
with what we're seeing with John MacArthur's church out in California, where he's basically
15:11
opened in defiance of what the local authorities are giving him. But I do want to kind of talk
15:17
about, you know, before we move on to other topics, I want to talk about Donald Trump specifically
15:21
because you are affiliated with the Trump campaign. And I just, just to be honest with
15:25
you, I've been a lifelong Republican. I'm very conservative in my leanings. And I've
15:30
had heartburn over voting for Donald Trump for four and a half years now. In the Republican
15:35
primary in 2016, I voted for Marco Rubio. For the presidential election, I've talked
15:40
about a lot on this podcast. I left the top of my ballot blank. I didn't think that Donald
15:44
Trump or Hillary Clinton met kind of my basic standards of human decency to be voted for.
15:50
And I also didn't think either of them would govern conservatively, obviously with Hillary.
15:54
But I've been wrong about Trump in terms of how he's governed. I haven't been wrong about
15:58
his attitude and his, you know, his behavior on Twitter and how he refers to people and
16:03
all the things that I'm sure will be revealed before the election. But what would you say
16:07
to someone like me? Because there's a lot of people like me out there that we like what
16:11
the Trump administration has done, but it's Donald Trump that gives us pause.
16:16
Yeah. So again, I think the most important thing for me when I first of all, when I'm
16:25
looking at candidates and who I'm going to support and where I'm going to throw my hat
16:30
and I was happy to support Trump early on. I mean, I was supporting him back in 15 during
16:37
the primary, even though I had friends that I believed in and I think would have made
16:41
a great president too, like Senator Ted Cruz, like Governor Bush, you know, they've all
16:48
been supportive and helpful to me and my campaigns in the past. And I think they've both would
16:53
have done a great job as well. But I really felt led to support Trump and what got my
16:59
attention about him was I knew that he was different than any other candidate. You know,
17:04
I knew that we needed to shake things up in Washington, D.C. We needed somebody that would
17:09
look at things from a different angle. And when I start comparing candidates, the first
17:15
thing I always do is I remind myself, they're just men or they're just a woman, no more
17:22
and no less. And that means that they're created in the image of God, just like I am.
17:27
It also means that they were born with a sin nature. And the first person I try to compare
17:33
candidates to is Jesus. And frankly, they all fall short when I do that. None of them
17:40
live up to the standard that he would have us to live up to because I know I certainly
17:45
don't. And so that helps me move on from there because when I recognize that they've
17:51
all fallen short. And I can set up my own measurement in rubric about, you know, which
17:59
faults I think bear more weight and which of their attributes are more important. But
18:06
the reality is they've all fallen short. What I know about President Trump and what I saw
18:12
in him and what I still believe in him is that his focus for wanting to see this country
18:20
do better is unlike anything I've ever seen. And I've always said this, Kyle, and I've
18:24
run for office before. People run for office in one of two ways. One of the things I always
18:28
look at is why are you running? And most people run either because they want to be somebody
18:35
or they want to do something. And Donald Trump didn't need to run for office to be somebody.
18:41
I mean, I've known of him my entire life. I've known who he was. I've known about his
18:48
success in business my entire life. He's been a pop culture figure since I can remember
18:54
him. So he didn't need to do anything to be anybody. He didn't need to run for president
18:57
nor to be something. He wanted to do something. And his story about looking at this country
19:03
and seeing how we were seating jobs, seating our place in the world to places like China
19:12
and recognizing that American exceptionalism is real. That was the thing that drew me to
19:20
president Trump. And so for those who have quirks about personalities or idiosyncrasies,
19:27
I mean, pick your poison. You can find that in any candidate. I don't know any candidate
19:33
that I agree with 100% of the time. And I don't know any candidate who meets the standard
19:38
of Jesus. And what I do know is that Donald Trump now has a proven record of moving the
19:47
needle on supporting conservative issues like no candidate I've seen in the last 60 years.
19:53
Well, I certainly appreciate that perspective. And that gives myself and a lot of our listeners
19:57
some food for thought. I do want to transition now into the, you know, the the issue that's
20:02
on everybody's brain and has been from months now and that's race in America. Obviously,
20:06
you would think after a country elects by a landslide, a black president two times in
20:10
a row to two consecutive terms that, you know, race relations would be going in a positive
20:14
direction. But I think Barack Obama did a lot of things to actually negate some of the gains
20:19
that we've made as as a country. But the first thing I guess is I kind of have an issue when
20:24
people talk about communities talking about the designation of a community to a group that
20:29
just shares the same inherent qualities are the same immutable qualities like the black
20:34
community or, you know, the, you know, the white community, the Latino community, I think
20:38
that's a little bit disingenuous. It's almost post modern to just think of people as groups
20:44
as opposed to individuals. But from your perspective, obviously, as a black man growing
20:48
up in the United States, America being here your entire life, do you feel like the designations
20:52
of separating groups is helpful for the race conversation in America?
20:58
You know, I think about it. Scripturally, Kyle, I always think about in revelations, the letters
21:05
to the seven churches and, you know, each one of those churches had its own personality
21:11
and its own kind of cultural references. And so I don't mind people assimilating and sharing
21:20
and interacting with people that look like them and have a common experience. Whether
21:26
it be based around their heritage or whether it be based around, you know, Harley Davidson's,
21:32
you know, whatever your fancy is, that's part of what I think makes America great. I think
21:39
the challenge is, is when we do that at the exclusion of other groups, we do that at the
21:45
exclusion of other opportunities to interact. You know, I'm okay with guys who drive fords
21:54
and, you know, my family was a Chevy. It was a Chevy family. Then, you know, the tuition
21:59
I'll never meet. And when I bought my first Ford, you know, my dad had real paws about
22:05
that. As he said, because he's a good American. That's good. And, you know, but after, you
22:13
know, after I put 150,000 miles on it and didn't have any, any issues at all, he became a true
22:20
believer too. I mean, he saw the value. And so my point is I don't want to trivialize
22:25
race in America. And I don't mean to do that at all because it is important. But my point
22:29
is this, you know, what has helped to make this country great is, is our differences.
22:36
I think the rest of the world, you know, you look at historically, in the early days of
22:42
our country, you know, people predicted our doom because of our diversity. They said
22:47
that, you know, that mongrel race of people will never be able to sustain its culture,
22:55
that they'll never be able to form a government. But the reality is, the diversity is actually
23:01
our strength. And while there are differences, there are things that unite us as Americans.
23:06
Now, unfortunately, in today's time and even during this election, there are groups out
23:11
there like Antifa, who are who are looking to divide us and to focus on the places where
23:16
we're different. But my experience with talking to most Americans, whether they'd be black,
23:21
red, orange, purple, or white, they genuinely want a better living for a better life for
23:29
the kids and grandkids. Now, we disagree about what a better life may be. We disagree about
23:34
how we get there sometimes. But ultimately, those things unite us. And so I don't fear
23:41
the diversity issue. And I don't fear people assimilating with light-minded people. But
23:48
when you start doing it at the exclusion of others, I think that is counterproductive.
23:54
And I think it's countercultural to who we are as Americans.
23:57
Well, let me ask you this. Obviously, Black Lives Matter is no longer a sentence. It hasn't
24:02
been a sentence for a long time. Now, it's an organization that has defined beliefs. They
24:06
even have a website. So it's like, we don't have to guess what these people believe and
24:09
what they think. But there's been a lot of posturing by media figures and by political
24:15
figures and by sports figures. I mean, it says Black Lives Matter right there on the
24:19
court, there within the NBA. But from your perspective, what do you think about the Black
24:23
Lives Matter organization? And what do you think that's doing to help, if anything, race
24:27
relations in the United States?
24:29
Well, you know, I'm like you. I always look at, you know, the origin of where things formed
24:35
and what their purpose is. When I look at the Black Lives Matter website, there are some
24:40
things that jump out at me that concern me greatly. And one of it, one of them being
24:45
is that, you know, they are committed to be the antithesis to families, to core, to core
24:55
strong families. And that gives me great pause, because I believe if we're going to have
25:00
a great neighborhood, if we're going to have a great city, if we're going to have a great
25:05
state, if we're going to have a great nation, it starts with strong families. And I also
25:10
know that the founders of the group are self-professed trained Marxists. And so that gives me great
25:17
pause about what their mission and their goal is. Now, the question has been asked about,
25:24
you know, whose lives matter? And I would just say this, Black Lives More Than Matter. Black
25:30
Lives Are Valuable, because they're valuable to God, just like every other life is valuable.
25:37
And so this idea of just saying that they matter, I think life has to more than just
25:41
matter. I think we have to value life. And that's, and that means all life. That means
25:46
even the life of the unborn. So, you know, I think this group has lost, I'm okay in America
25:55
with groups again. The idea, I'm a big strong proponent. I'm a constitutionalist who certainly
26:00
supports the First Amendment right and that right of people to simply peacefully. But
26:07
when you start writing and you start tearing up people's property and you start harassing
26:12
Americans, and if you start using terror to accomplish your agenda, that makes you move
26:20
from a political organization to a terrorist organization. And any group that uses terror
26:27
to accomplish its goal, I think is an enemy of the people of the United States. So that's
26:33
my thought.
26:34
Well, technically, when you're using things like terror, whenever you're threatening
26:37
people with Molotov cocktails and saying, Oh, but if you elect Joe Biden, this will all
26:41
go away. That's just it rings very disingenuous. But I'm not familiar. I'm not sure if you're
26:46
familiar with Matt Chandler. He's the head pastor of the village church down in Dallas.
26:51
But he said something here a few years ago that I want to get your thoughts on. He basically
26:55
was talking about hiring for church plants. And he said if a, you know, a headhunter brings
27:00
him a white guy that's in eight out of 10, and a black guy that's seven out of 10, he
27:06
said, I'm going to hire the black guy every time. And he was talking, you know, of all
27:10
the things that he does, he does kind of have more of a Marxist view on racism. But he's
27:15
been called out by, you know, giants like John MacArthur and Vody Bockum as, you know, basically
27:20
taking part in tokenism. And so from your perspective, from what you see, because you're
27:24
obviously a very adept guy at kind of reading the tea leaves, do you fear that all the social
27:29
unrest we're feeling and seeing right now in the country that it will lead to more tokenism?
27:34
Let me say this. I'm a big opponent of tokenism. It's one of the reasons when I was in the
27:41
State House of Representatives, I led the effort in Oklahoma to abolish affirmative action
27:48
in the areas of hiring and college admission. And I felt strongly about it because as a,
27:56
as a father of two minority children, my daughter is 15 and my son is 11. And they're
28:04
both African American and Chickasaw. So they're from two minority groups. And my daughter,
28:09
of course, is from another minority group. It was important to me that they didn't grow
28:15
up with a stigma that they needed a lower standard in order to compete. My kids are blessed. Like
28:24
I was, they have two parents who are completely dedicated to their well-being. I had that
28:31
and I had, like I mentioned before, I had a terrific church family. I mean, I had a village
28:36
that sawed in my well-being. And my kids have a wonderful village. So they can compete
28:41
on any standard that you give them. Doesn't mean they're going to always win. It doesn't
28:46
guarantee an outcome. But I can tell you, they can compete on any standard you give them because
28:53
they've been blessed with those resources. And I didn't want anybody to look at them.
28:58
And I didn't want them to achieve in life only to look back and think that they were
29:03
able to do it because they had a lesser standard because they don't have to do that. And so
29:09
I'm a big opponent of this idea of tokenism. And again, I don't want to skim over what
29:22
I think the initial protests started out about. I mean, I think when people look on television
29:28
and they see an atrocity, they see someone being killed, they see an unarmed person,
29:35
whether that be a black person, white person, female, male or female. But when we see someone
29:40
unarmed lose their life, we should be moved with compassion. We should, because I think
29:46
that's part of our Christian psyche. I think it's in our Christian DNA as a country. But
29:55
certainly on a human level, we should be moved by that. And that, I think, is what stirred
30:00
a lot of Americans. However, in that same vein, we cannot begin to lose who we are as
30:11
Americans. And it is still not a justification for rioting and violence in the streets. And
30:19
that I think goes to the heart of where the country is right now and where people are struggling.
30:25
I think it's okay to grieve with innocent blood, innocent lives that have been lost
30:33
in blood that has been shed. And also want to support law enforcement and the institutions
30:42
that have helped to make this country great. I don't think they're the antithesis of each
30:45
other. And I don't think we should be made to feel like they are.
30:48
I certainly appreciate that perspective. And there's been one through point and we'll
30:52
get your brief thoughts on this before we move to the last segment of the show here.
30:56
You've talked a lot in this episode about communism, socialism, Marxism. There's been
31:01
a lot of through points and center points to a lot of the things that you've been saying.
31:05
Why do you think that those ideas, communism, socialism, Marxism, all the things attached
31:10
to that postmodernism, are so appealing to young people in America today?
31:14
You know, I alluded to it a little earlier. Kyle, I think our enemy is not flesh and
31:23
blood. I think we're in a spiritual battle. And I think that's what now the media can't
31:29
report on that because the media can't see and understand spiritual things. But those
31:33
of us who are believers that have been born again and are infused with God's Holy Spirit,
31:41
we have spiritualized and we can see what's happening. And this whole idea of socialism,
31:46
I think part of the appeal for socialism is that, that sin nature in us that is very
31:54
akin to covetous. You know, scripture is very clear about coveting the property, the
32:01
belongings, the gifts, the talents of your neighbor. And I think that's what socialism
32:07
is all about. It is the idea that I'm poor because that person is rich. That's a, that's
32:13
a core Marxist idea. And this idea that I need the government to come in and to create quote
32:21
equity by taking from my brother so that I can have that is fundamentally against the
32:28
Christian faith. And so I think that the reason it's so appealing is no, the reason socialism
32:34
is so appealing, it's not a coincidence that we've had a decline in church, church attendance
32:43
over the years. This generation for younger people have a less serious relationship with
32:51
Christ than we have culturally historically. And so I think that's where a lot of the appeal
32:56
is coming from, frankly, it's a misunderstanding of our Judeo-Christian heritage. But it's also
33:07
a lot of young people haven't been taught in civics and government because a lot of people
33:12
who I've talked to and I spend a lot of time speaking to young people, a lot of them see
33:18
it as the compassionate route. They don't fully understand, you know, capitalism. A lot
33:24
of young people, and I like to use this a lot. I like to refer to this set of facts a lot.
33:34
If you really care about the poor, if you truly have a heart, and we should, I think
33:39
as Christians, we should have a heart for the poor, first of all, then if that's really
33:44
your heart, then you should really be a capitalist because capitalism is the only former government
33:52
that has ever moved a person out of generational poverty into a middle class. There's not an
34:00
example of that working on a small level, on a large level, in any socialist regime. In
34:06
fact, every socialist regime that has ever existed has failed over time. And so if you're
34:12
a true proponent of wanting to help your brother who's in need, which is what I hear, frankly,
34:19
a lot of young people saying, and a lot of what they think is appealing about socialism,
34:24
when I explain to them how capitalism is the only way to do that, it's amazing how that
34:29
light goes off. And so I think there's still a way to harness that. We just have to do
34:33
a better job of telling the story of why capitalism works, why it helps to promote a civil society,
34:43
and also speaking about how unjust, how unjust the idea of socialism is.
34:51
Well, hey, TW, before we let you go, we do one more segment of the show. And that is called
34:56
what would you say to someone that said? And then basically I fill in the blank. And here's
35:00
the thing is these are 30 seconds or less. That's all you get. So you can't go on and
35:05
on about these topics, even though they are big topics, you just have to give us the meat
35:08
and potatoes answers. So you up for it? Yeah, yeah, I am. All right, let's do it. All right,
35:13
first one here. What would you say to someone that said, good people should go into business,
35:18
not politics? I would say good people should go on the both. There, you know, politics,
35:26
I believe is a is a calling, like any other thing I felt called to be there. The 13th chapter
35:31
of Romans tells us that people who serve in government are ministers. And I also believe
35:37
that your business can be your ministry too. We need, we need Christians everywhere. We
35:42
don't need Christians just in one sector. And we certainly don't just need them in the
35:46
church house. We need them at every table. All right, next rapid fire question here. What
35:50
would you say to someone that said, there's a massive difference between liberals and
35:55
leftists? I would say that used to be the case. But liberals have with their canceled
36:06
culture. They've made it intolerable for anybody who doesn't absolutely prescribe to
36:13
the far left Marxist view. And as a result, there's not a lot of room on the other side
36:21
for the freeness of thoughts. You know, the good news about being a conservative is we
36:29
have a very big tent. And I think that parallels, I'm sorry, I think that is in the antithesis
36:36
to the modern day kind of liberalism, because they're just pretty intolerant of anybody
36:43
who thinks differently than them. All right, next one here. What would you say to someone
36:47
that said, the United States is a racist country? If someone said that United States
36:58
is a racist country, I would tell them they're absolutely wrong. My life is a great example
37:05
of how this country is still the best country in the world. And it still offers opportunities
37:12
that no one would ever, that no one that no other country has ever been able to compare
37:17
to. And it's the reason we have the largest immigration issue than any other nation, because
37:23
so many people want to be here. And it's not just people of the Anglo heritage, it's people
37:30
from all over the world who want to be here because there's real opportunity. Racism has
37:35
been a part of our past. There are still racist people in our country. But when you think
37:41
about what this country has to offer, that does not at all tell the story. This is still
37:46
a country about freedom and about opportunity. And that's for everyone.
37:51
All right, next one here. What would you say to someone that said Donald Trump is a racist?
37:59
I would say Donald Trump has done more for the African American community than any president
38:04
in history since Abraham Lincoln, since Abraham Lincoln, whether we're talking about the lowest
38:11
unemployment rate before COVID, whether we're talking about historic funding for historically
38:16
black colleges and universities, or we're talking about empowerment zones that have flooded
38:24
private sector capital north of $10 billion into underserved communities that primarily
38:32
serve African Americans. This president has a real heart for the African American community,
38:38
and it also has been demonstrated in his criminal justice reform, where he's cleaning up the
38:44
policies that have devastated black families that have been proposed by the Democrat Party.
38:50
So Donald Trump absolutely is not a racist, and he has a record to prove it.
38:56
Next one here. What would you say to someone that said, I want to be a friend of Jesus,
39:01
not a disciple? I don't know that Jesus is short on friends. I don't know that he's looking
39:11
for friends. What he said was, "Take up your cross and follow me." As a disciple of Christ
39:20
myself, I will tell you that the benefits far outweigh the trials. The Lord saved me at
39:31
a young age, Kyle, and he directed my life on a path that I would have never imagined.
39:37
It saved me from a lot of heartache. A lot of hardships. I have a lot of friends, a lot
39:42
of family that chose a different path. I am so blessed to be in communion with Christ.
39:51
I certainly don't always live up to my end of the deal, but by end of the deal was so
39:56
easy. All I had to do was accept his love and his grace and his forgiveness, and try
40:02
to trust and try to obey him. Being a disciple of his is filled with benefits, and I would
40:12
encourage anybody to do it. What would you say to someone that said, affirmative action
40:17
is a wonderful, necessary program? I would say affirmative action has done more to create
40:30
a stigma against African-Americans than maybe any other policy in the United States. Every
40:39
African-American that has attained a level of success or greatness, I don't believe
40:45
it's because of affirmative action. I think it was in spite of affirmative action. African-Americans
40:51
are as capable as any other race of people, and we do not need a second-class standard
41:02
in order to compete. We can compete with the same standard that anyone else has. Anybody
41:08
who believes that is short on history and short on who African-American people and other
41:16
minorities really are. All right. What would you say to someone that said? If Jesus were
41:21
alive today, he'd be a socialist. I would say that's fundamentally flawed, and it's
41:32
a fundamentally skewed view of who Christ is. The Christ that I know is the creator of heaven
41:43
and earth, and he doesn't need to subscribe to any man-made political ideology. I mean,
41:50
he is a fearcrat. If anything, when he comes back, the government is going to be, it is
41:58
upon his shoulders, and he will rule and set up his own kingdom. If you live right, and
42:06
if you give your life to him, you'll get to experience the type of government he's going
42:10
to institute himself. Love that. All right. Just a few more here, and then we'll be done
42:15
for the day. What would you say? And it won't be socialism. I guarantee that. Yeah, I bet
42:21
you're right. We don't know for sure, but we got a pretty good guess. It won't be. All
42:24
right. Just a few left. What would you say to someone that said, "Donald Trump has my
42:28
vote in November?" Vote early and do it in person. All right. Next one. It's like it.
42:36
What's different? What would you say to someone that said, "Joe Biden has my vote in November?"
42:47
I don't second-guess people for supporting who they think is right. I think it's the
42:52
most fundamental part of being American. I would say to that person, though, think about
42:59
where we are on the world stage right now, and think about what has helped to make this
43:05
country great, and who has a platform and a policy record and a policy plan to continue
43:18
and grow that. And I think the choice is pretty evident in its President Donald Trump in my
43:25
opinion. Last question of the day. What would you say to someone that said, "Black people
43:29
just can't get ahead in the United States?" I think that's a joke. The idea that black
43:35
people can't get ahead in the United States is just absolutely not true. African-Americans,
43:41
if you look, and if you want a great example of that, you can look shortly after the Civil
43:46
War during Reconstruction in places like Tulsa, America, where in the Greenwood district where
43:53
you had a thriving upper-middle class of African-Americans who were just recently out of slavery, African-Americans
44:02
were doing well. They had an amazing workforce, a skill set that many in the country didn't
44:08
have because of slavery, and they were able to leverage that in this country and become
44:12
amazing entrepreneurs. It wasn't until the 1950s and several programs after that, and
44:21
before that even, where you started this idea of a war on poverty that you fundamentally
44:30
helped to destroy black families, and that's what created the turmoil, and there were other
44:36
policies as well. Many of them advocated by Democrats, I would add, that further went
44:41
to destroy the community and the families, but African-Americans have thrived in the
44:47
United States at different times, and this country still creates an amazing opportunity
44:53
for anybody who has a great work ethic, who's willing to work hard, there's still great
44:59
opportunity in this country.
45:00
Well, TW, I've appreciated your perspective on a lot of different issues. We've talked
45:04
about a lot of things today, but that is all for me. Is there anything else you want
45:08
to get off your chest?
45:10
I don't think so, Kyle. I really appreciate you asking me on. It's a privilege to get
45:15
to do it. I'm a big fan of yours, always have been, and this is an amazing opportunity for
45:23
this country. This next election, I think, is critically important, and I hope everybody
45:27
goes out and votes, and if you're unsure who to vote for, vote read.
45:31
All right, TW Shannon, thanks for coming on Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
45:36
Thank you, Kyle.
45:38
There you go, guys. That wraps up another interview with another great guest, but before we let
45:45
you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. As you know, by now, we are immense
45:48
ministry and our mission is cultivating manly resilience. Specifically, we do that by providing
45:52
content like this podcast that helps you forward spiritual, mental, and physical toughness.
45:56
Before today, I've got some links for you. I've got an interview that TW Shannon did
45:59
on C-SPAN, not that long ago, so I got a link to that here. Then there's a YouTube video
46:03
called Black Voices for Trump Real Talk with Katrina Pearson, TW Shannon and Paris
46:08
Denard. Then I got another one that's a little video that was done by the Chickasaw Nation
46:12
here in the state of Oklahoma. It's called TW Shannon on Faith and Family, and the last
46:16
one is just a link to TW Shannon's Twitter page, so you can find them there.
46:19
Thank you, guys, for listening to the podcast. I really do appreciate it. If you would, please
46:22
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I'm currently booking speaking engagements for the end of 2020 in the beginning of 2021,
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me up info at undaunted.like. That's I-N-F-O at undaunted.life. Our website is www. undaunted.life.
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plans, and as always, we want to thank the band August Burns Red for allowing us to use
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our song "Defender," which is off their latest record entitled "Guardians." The links are
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in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep cultivating manly resilience,
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the forging spiritual, mental, and physical toughness? Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
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[music]