0:00
Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard, but not the pipeline?
0:04
That's bullspend, and marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.
0:09
My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive-sounding metric I had.
0:15
Impression.
0:17
Cut the bullspend.
0:18
See revenue, not just reach.
0:19
LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad networks.
0:23
Advertise on LinkedIn.
0:24
Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $25 credit.
0:27
Go to linkedin.com/campaign, turn sick edition supply.
0:32
This is on Daunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
0:53
All right, guys, today we've got a special interview for you.
0:56
You have Christian author, counselor, and lecturer, John Eldridge.
0:59
Yes, we got John Eldridge on the podcast.
1:01
I know a lot of you guys have been asking about getting him on the show, and we were
1:04
able to finally make that happen.
1:06
If you're not familiar with John Eldridge, he is the New York Times bestselling author
1:09
of a large number of books, workbooks, and group studies.
1:13
He has a new bestseller that just came out here recently called Get Your Life Back, Every
1:16
Day Practices for a World Gone Mad, and this book, it couldn't be more timely with all
1:21
this COVID-19 stuff going on and all the craziness with the news and your smartphones, and it's
1:25
just it's a perfect time for this book, and it's gotten more and more perfect over time,
1:29
especially with the stuff that we're dealing with.
1:31
But most of you guys are going to know him from his seminal work, the really these seminal
1:36
men's ministry book, Wild at Heart, and so we go into a lot of detail on Wild at Heart
1:40
in this podcast.
1:41
Again, that book is almost 20 years old.
1:43
If you can believe it, we also spend some time talking about another book that a lot of
1:46
you guys have asked me about, and that's beautiful outlaw.
1:49
That book kind of gets into the personality of Jesus and understanding kind of the fullness
1:53
of who he is, and guys, he's got a lot of other books too.
1:57
Maybe you've read Father by God or Desire or it may be even Stacey Eldridge.
2:01
His wife wrote a book called Captivating that actually wrote that book together.
2:05
Maybe your wife has gone through that, but this is a guy that has had a tremendous impact
2:09
on men's ministry in the United States, and his book, Wild at Heart, that's that's kind
2:13
of the thing that is, you know, lit this fire under so many guys.
2:19
It's kind of hard.
2:20
I'm kind of struggling with the words, it's hard to even describe the fullness of the
2:23
impact that he's had just with his ideology and his philosophy on how to do things.
2:28
So we go into a lot of different subject matters.
2:30
We talk about rites of passage.
2:32
We talk about so many different things.
2:33
This interview, I'm so excited for you guys to listen to it again.
2:36
Pay attention to the notes at the end in the show notes.
2:38
I've got the links for you, but guys, without further ado, let's get into it.
2:44
John Eldridge, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
2:47
Thanks, Kyle.
2:48
Great to be with you.
2:49
While I'm so happy to have you on this podcast, a lot of guys are very, very excited to hear
2:53
about this interview.
2:54
You've got a lot of fans on this interview, a lot of fans of this show.
2:58
And so we're just going to launch right in and we'll start just from the beginning with
3:01
you, just briefly, before you were a Christian, you said that you spent a lot of time digging
3:06
into some Eastern religions, some of the more mysticism, new age, spirituality, those types
3:12
of things, but that it was the writings of Francis Schafer, who's kind of a modern philosopher
3:17
that helped lead you to Christ.
3:19
And so that, to me, and to my audience, that's a fairly unique story that a philosopher's
3:24
writings would have led you out of kind of that mysticism and new age spirituality.
3:29
Can you briefly give us an idea of kind of how all of that went down, how you went from
3:34
some of those other thoughts on religion and kind of making your way all the way to Christ?
3:39
Yeah, I was hungry.
3:41
I was in my teenage years in high school and right out of high school, I was searching.
3:47
I tried everything.
3:48
I looked in the Native American spirituality and Eastern mysticism, new age.
3:56
I was looking for the truth.
3:57
I wasn't looking for a religion.
4:00
I wasn't really even looking for an experience.
4:03
I wanted to know what was true.
4:06
And I knew that if I ever found it, it would be globally true.
4:10
Like it would be true for the arts and for culture and the sciences and psychology.
4:16
Like if there is a truth about humanity, it's got to apply to every part of life.
4:22
And that was Shaeffer's belief.
4:24
He really did a good job presenting to that generation that Christianity is not a religion,
4:31
it's a worldview.
4:33
And when Jesus says, "I'm the way, the truth, and the life," he means it.
4:39
So I had actually a pretty beautiful, intimate encounter with Jesus Christ when I was 18.
4:48
And I didn't have anybody sure the gospel with me.
4:51
I grew up in an agnostic home, but I had a very intimate encounter with Jesus.
4:58
I like Paul on the domestic road without the blinding and changed my life forever.
5:05
Well, the great thing about that story is you hear a lot of people's come to Jesus moment
5:11
for a lot of folks isn't the same.
5:13
And some people think there has to be some dramatic story attached to it, which isn't
5:16
always the case, but then that is also a possibility.
5:19
But it's really interesting to hear about how you came to faith.
5:22
But certainly your faith, it undergirds just about everything that you've put out.
5:25
You've authored a lot of best-selling books, and even here recently, you've got another
5:29
best-seller called Get Your Life Back, Everyday Practices for a World Gone Mad.
5:34
And that's something that you just released here recently.
5:36
But I just want you to say in your own words, describe this book and what is Get Your Life
5:40
Back About and why did you write it for a time such as this time?
5:45
Well, it's wild, Kyle, because if you pick it up and read it, you would think that I wrote
5:50
it during the pandemic.
5:53
But I didn't.
5:54
God just knew that folks were going to need this.
5:59
Prior to the pandemic, I've been a Christian therapist for 30 years.
6:03
And I'm just noticing the effect of the world on my own soul and on the soul of the people
6:08
I care about.
6:10
Everybody was flying, everybody was spun up, everybody was running, it was a perfect
6:16
storm.
6:17
It was the pace of life.
6:19
It was the number of things that had to get done.
6:23
And then it was the overburden of technology, just way too plugged in, 10 hours a day on
6:28
our phones and three hours a day using apps.
6:33
And then it was the chaos of the world.
6:37
You've got the global news coming to you every day.
6:42
And I didn't like what it was doing to me.
6:45
It felt like I wasn't a human anymore.
6:49
I was asking myself to live at the speed of a smartphone.
6:53
So I wrote the book talking about ways that I had begun to get my life back from the crazy.
6:59
I mean, everybody has a crazy day, everybody's got a crazy week.
7:03
But when it starts turning into crazy life, that's not good.
7:08
And then the pandemic hits.
7:11
And if you were glued to the news before the pandemic, you put that on jet fuel.
7:18
And if you were spun up on social media, I mean, you were glued to it.
7:23
So suddenly, here during the pandemic, with all this uncertainty, and with all this loss,
7:30
I mean, there's just a lot of genuine loss.
7:32
People losing their jobs, their companies, churches closing.
7:37
I think that God knew we needed soul care.
7:43
We didn't need to binge watch Netflix three hours a day during the quarantine.
7:47
We needed soul care.
7:50
And so the book is designed around how beauty and nature and music and simply learning to
7:58
pause in your day, like setting a rhythm of wholeness would really bring about strong
8:06
and healthy souls.
8:09
And like I said, we needed that before the pandemic, but holy cow, do we need it now?
8:15
When I think a lot of people are struggling with that as they're sitting in kind of this
8:19
milieu of confusion and just they can't really turn to their pastors because they can't go
8:25
to church and they can't really turn to their boss because they can't go to work.
8:28
And there's this confusion that has set in for a lot of people and we're certainly not
8:31
here to debate what the government dictates have been, but it has caused a lot of issues.
8:35
And so there couldn't be a better time to have a book like this.
8:38
But before we move on from get your life back, I did want to ask a very specific question
8:43
about kind of the tone and tenor of the book.
8:46
So you've said that you want the content of get your life back to help people learn how
8:51
to live freely and lightly.
8:53
So freely and lightly.
8:55
And so what's interesting about that is when I heard you say that it was in some interview
8:58
somewhere, it kind of landed funny with me.
9:02
And I guess the question is, is why would you encourage a man to live lightly?
9:07
Because in light of a lot of the other works that you've done while at heart, which we'll
9:11
talk about and fathered by God and all these other ones, it seems like you want men to
9:15
live with resilience and heft and to run into some obstacles that they have to overcome.
9:23
So why would you encourage freeness in kind of this light weightiness?
9:27
Yeah.
9:28
Yeah.
9:29
It's probably vernacular.
9:30
It's probably just word choice.
9:33
You're probably hearing goofy and irresponsible, which I don't mean by those words.
9:42
One of the things that happened in the last 30 years was the human soul got inundated with
9:50
the cares of the world.
9:52
I mean, you just open your phone in the morning and here's the wildfires in Australia.
9:58
1.9 billion animals die.
10:02
Right.
10:03
And the earthquakes in Turkey and the thing is, 1 Peter 5, verse 7 says, cast all your
10:11
cares upon the Lord because he cares for you.
10:17
And then Jesus' invitation is take my yoke because my yoke is easy, my burden is light.
10:25
Basically what I'm trying to contrast, Kyle, is the world hammers your soul and the world
10:31
asks men to carry burdens that actually aren't ours to carry.
10:39
And learning which are ours to carry and which are not is a really important step towards
10:44
maturity.
10:46
And so, yeah, the invitation, because the bottom line is you can't sink the lifeboat.
10:53
Like every family, every household is a lifeboat and you can't throw so much need into that
11:01
that it sinks.
11:02
You've got to have a resilient ship so that you can live strong, offer well, you know,
11:09
live out your calling, follow God.
11:12
But most of what I see is people way spun up in the world and now, right, like way spun
11:20
up and what's the economy going to do?
11:23
What's the pandemic going to do?
11:24
Are they going to ease the restrictions?
11:25
Right.
11:26
Right.
11:27
And you're actually not supposed to live in that mess.
11:31
There's a there's a different life.
11:32
There's a life with God.
11:34
Now, there are battles to face and we'll get to that in a minute.
11:39
And there are hills to climb and hills to take.
11:43
And there is suffering and sacrifice for men in this world who want to be men, but not
11:51
the crazy of the world, not the world's version of, you know, stay plugged in and stay overcooked.
11:59
That stuff is not good.
12:01
Right.
12:02
And I appreciate your, your clarifying on that.
12:04
And that's an interesting point as well, because for a lot of guys, they don't really
12:07
have that internal maturity to delineate, you know, left or right on an issue like that.
12:13
And so, so guys, that's just a primer for the rest of the book, get your life back.
12:17
And certainly there will be a link in the show notes so that you can go and pick that
12:20
up.
12:21
But we're going to transition now into the book that you're probably most known for, certainly
12:24
to my audience.
12:25
And that's a book you released back in 2001 and that's wild at heart.
12:28
And so I've said multiple times on this podcast.
12:30
And when I've been speaking that this is the seminal men's ministry book.
12:35
And I will debate that to the ends of the earth that I think this is the most important,
12:39
the most seminal men's ministry book that we have.
12:42
And so for you, I guess it's interesting, when you're writing a book, you, I guess you
12:45
may not know or realize what type of a overall impact it's going to have.
12:50
But at what point did you realize that wild at heart was catching fire and having a huge
12:55
impact on men?
12:56
Yeah, not until really the second and third year.
13:02
I knew I was the guy that found treasure in the field.
13:05
I knew it because I had taken the journey myself.
13:11
And as a Christian therapist, I had counseled tons of guys through pretty hard stuff.
13:20
And the thing is the core issues were always the same, whether it was the sexual addiction
13:25
stuff or the gambling or depression, anxiety, suicide, the different battles of the human
13:34
heart, the core issues were the same.
13:37
For every man I saw, and then I began to read on it, research on it, write about it.
13:43
I'm like, I knew this is the gold, but I didn't know if the world would know.
13:50
I didn't know if guys would take the time to read it.
13:54
And then when we watched, we watched the revolution begin to take off.
13:59
And early on, yes, phenomenal Kyle, just the beauty of what's happened around the world
14:07
through that message, a lot of guys healed, a lot of marriages rescued.
14:11
And it's still going strong.
14:13
I mean, it's still healing a lot of masculine souls.
14:20
As like you said, there's not a lot else out there that goes by the way of the heart.
14:27
There's a lot of instruction on how to get your act together, but it's trying to fix
14:32
a man from the outside.
14:35
You know, here are the things you ought to do to become a good man.
14:39
And much of it's good stuff, but the problem is if you don't go by way of the heart, if
14:43
you don't resurrect and restore and strengthen and train the masculine soul, then he can't.
14:54
He can't run that marathon, right?
14:55
He's still got a broken leg.
14:58
Absolutely.
14:59
And I liked your vernacular that use there of training the masculine soul.
15:02
There is some work that needs to be put in.
15:05
And there's some sort of revelatory things that you need to be able to understand in order
15:08
to get to that point.
15:09
And guys, this book has been out for a long time.
15:11
Can you believe it?
15:12
Yeah.
15:13
And so we're certainly not going to get into all the details and the themes of this book.
15:17
But I did want to read one quote to you, John, this is actually my favorite quote from the
15:21
entire book.
15:22
And if I had to give somebody one paragraph from this entire book to kind of sum up why
15:26
it's important to me, it would be this.
15:28
So indulge me as I read it.
15:29
We don't need accountability groups.
15:31
We need fellow warriors, someone to fight alongside someone to watch our back.
15:35
A young man just stopped me on the street to say, I feel surrounded by enemies and I'm
15:39
all alone.
15:41
The whole crisis in masculinity today has come because we no longer have a warrior culture,
15:46
a place for men to learn to fight like men.
15:49
We don't need a meeting of really nice guys.
15:52
We need a gathering of really dangerous men.
15:55
That's what we need.
15:56
Yes, we need men to whom we can bear our souls, but it isn't going to happen with a group
16:01
of guys you don't trust who really aren't willing to go to battle with you.
16:05
It's a longstanding truth that there is never a more devoted group of men than those who
16:09
have fought alongside one another, the men of your squadron, the guys in your foxhole.
16:14
It will never be a large group, but we don't need a large group.
16:17
We need a band of brothers willing to shed their blood with us.
16:21
And so I love that so much because I've taken that to heart and I've got a group of guys
16:25
that I would say is my foxhole and I talk about the concept of the foxhole a lot.
16:30
But even in reading that out loud, John, that doesn't feel like anything I hear inside
16:35
the church, it doesn't feel like we've gotten this schedule of this is how you act like
16:41
a man and this is a schedule with which you accomplish that.
16:44
Here are the things that make you a really nice guy, but it also makes you a soft guy.
16:48
So for you in light of writing something like that, do you see that in the church today?
16:54
Do you see that in modernity with men?
16:56
Is that even important to most guys or are we still struggling?
16:59
Well, two things are going on and one is bad news and one is really good news.
17:06
The bad news is when I wrote Wild at Heart, there was a lot of gender confusion in the
17:12
world.
17:13
And in the 20 years since there has been total gender collapse, gender is a spectrum.
17:22
It's not something that's seen with dignity and power, both male and female like Genesis
17:31
1, there's so much gender fallout now that most younger men don't know if they're supposed
17:40
to be men.
17:43
And so that's the bad news.
17:44
The good news is this though, something really extraordinary has taken place all over the
17:49
world.
17:50
That's a great example of it, guys are standing up, guys want in, they really do.
17:58
They are forming groups, missions, fellowships, retreats, outings, father-son initiation
18:08
stuff all over the place.
18:12
And it's this big untold story and it's awesome, I don't want this story told, I can
18:17
wait for the kingdom, the cool thing is there is this grass roots, I don't even know what
18:24
to call it, it's like a wildfire going on and it's not just in North America, it is all
18:31
over the world.
18:33
There is a resurgence, now it's the few and it's the remnant, it's not the main thing
18:39
that's taking place in church, but it is taking place and it is very encouraging.
18:45
Well, and that's good to see someone like you that has the perspective of timing.
18:51
I mean, you've spent multiple decades looking at this, but really you've kind of really
18:54
been in the fight with both feet for the last 20 years because of Wild at Heart.
18:59
But you talked about the difference in the timing of early 2001, I can't even recognize
19:03
that time period.
19:04
And if you look back, John, to 2016, 2017, I don't even recognize what the world looks
19:09
like now based on just a few years ago, right?
19:12
Some things that are happening now culturally are just, they're astonishing to see the speed
19:17
with which we've quote unquote progressed.
19:19
But the last question here on Wild at Heart before we move forward is if you wrote Wild
19:23
at Heart today, as opposed to back in 2001, and you did do a revised and updated version
19:29
about 10 years after you did the initial release, what would be different if you were writing
19:33
it today?
19:34
Well, it's so fascinating that you asked me that question because we are actually re-releasing
19:40
Wild at Heart next year with a big push to reach a new group of men.
19:46
And so I had to do that exact project in the last month.
19:50
I had to go through the book with a fine tooth comb and read every word and I hadn't read
19:55
it in years personally, because I don't sit there and read my own books.
20:01
But as I read through it, I was stunned at how timeless the message is.
20:06
I made very few changes, but the fun part, be the answer to your question, Kyle, is if
20:16
I was trying to equip guys to handle the war in the world today, the war for their soul,
20:25
the war for their relationships, the war for their dreams, all of it, I would write get
20:31
your life back and I would stick it in the back of Wild at Heart, because the scripture
20:38
says there's three great enemies, the world, the flash and the devil.
20:42
And I think we've got a pretty good idea what the flash is about.
20:45
We know what that internal traitor keeps trying to do to us and we have some sense of what
20:50
the enemy's doing, the accusations, the hatred, but the world is such a vague concept.
20:58
Those guys have no idea how it is sucking them dry and they've got to be prepared because
21:05
this world is designed to wear you out, wear you down and then take you out with some kind
21:15
of seduction, temptation, addiction, whatever.
21:20
And if you are not clear on how the world is warring against your soul, it's just going
21:26
to happen.
21:29
It's going to happen.
21:30
It's going to take you out and so get your life back.
21:34
I'm connecting the two books for a moment to go.
21:37
If you want to win the fight for your life, you have got to know how to keep the world
21:46
from draining you so that you can go then find the battles that are yours to fight and
21:53
the adventures that are yours to live and love the woman in your life so you can go live
22:00
the things I wrote about in Wild Heart because the world is a perfect storm to just fry you.
22:06
And the interesting thing about that John as well is you bring up a great point and that's
22:10
so funny that the timing worked out to where you just got through going through that because
22:14
my Foxhole group of guys, we get together every Sunday, we train Jiu Jitsu and we read
22:18
books.
22:19
We just reread Wild Heart.
22:20
That's kind of one of the basic core curriculum books that we read and I do remember whenever
22:25
we said we were going to read it again, most people, myself included, we kind of rolled
22:28
our eyes not because we don't like the book but we were like, we already know this book.
22:32
We already know everything about this book like it is what it is and then we were about
22:36
a chapter in and we're like, oh, this is super applicable now too and oh, look at all the
22:41
stuff that I forgot.
22:42
And so I think that's what's so timeless about that book is because it reveals something extra
22:47
special that maybe we didn't know that we were missing.
22:50
And that kind of dovetails nicely into the next book I want to talk to you about another
22:53
book that is a favorite of our listeners and that's beautiful outlaw.
22:56
The book that you wrote back in 2011.
22:59
And so seemingly your goal with beautiful outlaw is to really reveal Jesus's personality
23:05
but also his humanity to people for perhaps the first time in their lives.
23:10
And I think that's an accurate way to describe your book but even in the first chapter, you
23:13
talk about how the version of Jesus that were force fed, basically just the loving and compassionate
23:19
that Jesus, those are great qualities.
23:22
But you know, you say it's like trying to fall in love with a get well card.
23:26
It's like you can't really wrap your arms around it.
23:28
It's like trying to grab a fist full of water.
23:30
But that's the only Jesus that anyone's ever given.
23:33
So to transition to beautiful outlaw, why write a book that's focused on the personality
23:38
of Jesus when everyone else just wants to focus on the stories in the gospel and read
23:43
them just plain text?
23:44
Yeah, because if you don't have the personality of Jesus reading the gospels is like, oh,
23:49
it's like watching a movie with the sound turned off, you don't get it.
23:54
You're like, why is he doing this stuff?
23:56
What does he mean by that?
23:58
Like what?
23:59
And you're missing this phenomenal man.
24:03
You're missing his sense of humor.
24:05
Jesus has a great sense of humor.
24:09
And it's right there in the gospel stories.
24:11
But we miss it because we've got all this religious drapery around it.
24:15
Like, let's back up to the biggest possible perspective for a moment that the world is
24:21
at war and the human heart is the prize.
24:25
If you want a world view, a scriptural worldview in one sentence, that's it.
24:30
The world is at war.
24:31
The human heart is the prize.
24:33
The evil one and God are fighting for the hearts and souls of men and women.
24:40
And the rescue is Jesus, the intervention, literally the healing of your humanity, not
24:52
just your ticket to heaven, because that's not even where you spend eternity, by the way,
24:57
like even that's been jacked.
24:59
But the new heavens and the new earth, the incredible promise that's in front of us, but
25:06
the rescue of your humanity, right here, right now, the purpose of your life, why you're
25:12
created, the healing of your soul, all of that takes place as your life is hooked up
25:20
to the life of Jesus.
25:23
I am the vine.
25:24
You are the branch.
25:26
You've got to be hooked up to the life of Jesus.
25:28
Now, the problem is therefore, we're at this 30,000, 60,000 foot view.
25:33
Therefore, the enemy for centuries has been clouding and veiling the world's perspective
25:42
of Jesus.
25:44
So effectively, I might add, that most people are not that stoked about him, right?
25:50
It's like, well, yeah, I don't want to go to hell, so he's my savior, but he's not exactly
25:56
somebody I want to hang out with, and when you open your life, the number of times, I'm
26:07
going to tell you two quick wild stories.
26:09
So I am deep sea fishing down off the coast of Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, a number of years
26:18
ago.
26:19
And it was about to give up, it had been a hard day, and it was about to get up in Jesus.
26:25
I heard him speak very clearly.
26:27
He says, I have a Marlin for you.
26:30
Like what?
26:31
It's like, yep, I have a Marlin for you.
26:33
And so we stayed out, and we hit it, and sure enough, boom, man, I hook into this monster
26:39
Marlin.
26:41
And it's so big, they're backing the boat up so I can take in any amount of line.
26:48
And it's an epic, epic day, and it was like phenomenal adventure, totally nourishing for
26:54
my soul.
26:55
It was joy, it was beauty, and because it was Jesus, it was a life with Jesus.
27:04
So a couple of years ago, we are bow hunting elk in here in Colorado, and we've been on
27:09
the side of this mountain, and there was this bull elk bugling down in this canyon all day.
27:15
We could hear him, but we couldn't get to him.
27:16
It was just too gnarly terrain.
27:19
And so we wait, we wait, we wait for evening, hoping that he's going to pop out on this
27:23
meadow that we're in, and he doesn't.
27:27
He starts leaving, and we can hear him taking his whole herd of cows, and he's moving out
27:32
of this canyon.
27:34
And Jesus, I hear Jesus all of a sudden say, get in the canyon, get in the woods right
27:38
now.
27:39
I'm like, what?
27:40
He's like, yep, get in the woods.
27:41
I'm like, he's left.
27:42
He's gone.
27:43
I can hear him.
27:44
He's 500 yards away down the canyon.
27:45
He's like, get in the woods.
27:46
I'm like, okay, so I get in the woods, and I'm literally standing now in an empty forest.
27:51
There is nothing going on, it's crickets.
27:54
And all of a sudden, the entire herd turns around, and they start coming back up the
27:58
canyon.
27:59
And within about seven minutes, I am surrounded by elk, literally, they're all around me in
28:05
the woods.
28:07
Epic adventures like that, like people don't realize that's the personality of Jesus.
28:13
That's what he's like.
28:14
He's playful.
28:15
He's generous.
28:16
He's fierce.
28:19
And he is for us.
28:22
And so the reason I wrote the book was to show people that, like there is a life available.
28:27
There is a personhood to this man that is so incredible.
28:32
You're not going to have a hard time loving him or following him if you know what he's
28:39
really like.
28:42
And that's a beautiful way of describing.
28:43
I got to be honest, when I talk to my friends that have read this book as well, they have
28:46
the same thought that I do, which is I've never even thought to consider the personality
28:51
of Jesus.
28:52
Not until I read this book, you know, the gospels, they're just red letters on your page or on
28:56
your screen, right?
28:58
There's not really any of this secondary notion of I need to really figure out like what would
29:03
what would I be acting like or what would I be feeling inside if I was doing that.
29:07
And one quick thing on this book that I want to get your feedback on chapter four is my
29:11
favorite chapter of the book because it has my favorite quote in there.
29:13
And it's the chapter about his fierce intention.
29:16
And you describe my favorite story of the entire Bible.
29:18
This is Jesus clearing the temple in John two.
29:21
And we won't spend a ton of time here, but you talk about the Jesus that's described
29:25
in John two.
29:27
And then you kind of contrast that with this kind of, you know, peaceful pacifist tranquil
29:33
Jesus that we see in a lot of modern day worship music.
29:36
And to be honest, for a lot of listeners of this podcast, a lot of these guys are rough
29:39
around the edges.
29:40
These aren't guys that have maybe been church guys their entire life.
29:43
They're not necessarily seen as nice guys.
29:46
They're more so in that dangerous guys category that you quoted back and wild at heart.
29:50
But why why such a disconnect, especially in modern worship music?
29:55
Why is it so hard for most guys to get into stuff like that?
29:58
You know, why is the church and why does worship music?
30:01
Why do they keep putting out stuff like that when it's seemingly so contrary to the true
30:05
full nature of who Jesus is?
30:08
Yeah, yep, and what you're describing, Kyle, yep, yep, that's the problem.
30:15
It has to do with the feminization of the church.
30:21
And by that, I don't mean feminism.
30:23
I mean that over the years, the people that they could recruit to do anything to help
30:30
in the church were women.
30:32
The guys, the guys wouldn't show up.
30:34
They didn't want to think about it.
30:35
So what you ended up with over time was a way of doing spirituality that was very much
30:45
informed by the feminine soul.
30:48
And so there's one observation.
30:52
Now part two is and back to the warrior culture quote that you read from wild at heart.
30:58
We have not created a warrior culture in the church.
31:03
Now I do want to say that's changing.
31:05
There are churches that are doing that.
31:07
And that's that grassroots groundswell thing I was talking about.
31:11
That is changing and it's awesome that it is.
31:14
And again, look at your podcast, there's good things going on.
31:18
But for the most part, you have a church that was very feminized and then you had a church
31:23
that didn't have a warrior culture.
31:25
Well, what kind of worship is that going to produce?
31:29
We're just not going to, you know, we didn't form ministers and worship leaders in the masculine
31:40
journey.
31:41
Seminary has nothing to do with that.
31:45
They don't know that it needs to be done.
31:49
And so I'm not blaming anyone, I'm just describing a reality that without masculine
31:58
initiation, you won't have worship leaders writing different types of worship.
32:07
And again, that's changing.
32:09
And there are some there are some guys out there in particular who are writing some killer
32:14
worship that that's far more, you know, passionate and fierce, they, you know, they see Jesus
32:23
as a great warrior.
32:24
So again, good, good news, there's some, some of the trends are changing, but you've got
32:31
to go, you've got to go find it because it's not the main course.
32:35
Yeah, and I would certainly like to get some suggestions from you as to what some of that
32:40
music is because I tell guys all the time, I was like, the majority of the music that
32:43
I listen to is fairly aggressive, underground, heavy metal, a lot of which is Christian in
32:48
nature.
32:49
And since I was a teenager, that is something that spoke to me, it spoke to a different
32:52
part of my soul than you know, Michael W. Smith or Shane and Shane would speak to, you know.
32:56
So John, in light of some of the things that you've talked about, you've talked about the
32:59
importance of learning this and giving this type of a aspect to a lot of different types
33:05
of folks in that it's not something that people are just going to pick up on.
33:08
And you and I talked a little bit off air, I just had my first son.
33:11
And so we actually had to move our first interview time because my son was born that day.
33:15
And so we really appreciate you moving that around with us.
33:18
But my wife just gave birth to our first son and here I am, I'm so excited for him to be
33:22
like 16 years old so I can be teaching him things about what it means to become a man.
33:26
But what I want to know from you is you understand how we have a deficit of rights of passage
33:31
in our culture.
33:32
We don't really have that certainly in modern Christian culture.
33:35
You have three sons, your kids have kids.
33:38
I just had my first son.
33:40
What advice do you have for fathers out there like me or the ones listening to this show
33:45
that they're fathers of sons and they want to do rights of passage with their sons?
33:50
What would you suggest for them to do?
33:52
Well, and it may just be a language thing, but let me suggest a different way of thinking
33:57
about it.
33:58
Your primary work is the initiation of your son into masculinity, into manhood, that your
34:10
primary role as a dad and the initiation process is something that takes place over time.
34:20
Now what happened in the 90s and in the 2000s and a little bit into the decade of 2010 is
34:30
people began to rediscover the importance of like ceremony and at high school graduation
34:37
or at a 13th birthday or 16th or at a wedding ceremony in different ways, speaking kind
34:47
of validation into the young man's life.
34:52
And I believe in that and I've done it for all three of my sons.
34:56
I think that's a good thing, but that's not the primary thing that's needed.
35:00
What the dad does, because you've got 365 days a year with this guy, so it's not about
35:07
a day or an evening, it's not about a ceremony.
35:12
Initiation is a process that takes place over time.
35:15
It's something that's age appropriate, but it basically goes like this.
35:20
The boy has two needs and the needs are, does my dad adore me?
35:26
Does my dad really, really adore me?
35:29
And do I have what it takes?
35:34
The answer of the core questions, the formation of courage, the formation of resolve, the formation
35:41
of faith, the formation of honor and character are things that take place over time.
35:50
And so starting from young, you're setting the boy up, it's the wrestling on the living
35:55
room floor, it's the first bike rides and building courage into him, it's the trampoline
36:02
and learning to do a flip and it's the validation of the dad there so that over time, as you
36:08
do get into the teenage years, then it's hard work and it's the formation of a resilience
36:19
there.
36:20
It's the outdoors and what the outdoors does for the soul, it's learning to cut wood and
36:26
learning to backpack and learning how to build a fire in the wilderness.
36:30
Even if the boy is not inclined in that direction, God shapes men through creation.
36:37
He does not shape them through technology.
36:40
Most of this cannot be done on a laptop and it can't be done using video games.
36:45
Now there's, you know, there's a place for video games and they kind of develop something
36:49
of the warrior heart, but what we're describing is an initiation process that takes place
36:55
over time.
36:57
If you can get your hands on it, guys, there's a book that's out of print called The Way
37:01
of the Wild Heart that I wrote that describes that process.
37:06
It got shortened by my publisher several years later into a really great book called Fothered
37:11
by God that you can find.
37:14
So try and find the way of the wild heart because it's longer and it gives you more
37:18
answers.
37:19
So if you can't get that, get your hands on Fothered by God because it's not only does
37:23
he need initiation, but you do, right?
37:26
We are all still under initiation.
37:29
Right.
37:30
I think that's fantastic and it's good to kind of change the paradigm in your brain
37:34
to be more of an initiation type of thing because that's something that a lot of people
37:38
ask about.
37:39
One of the biggest questions I get is Kyle.
37:40
I've got sons.
37:41
What do I do?
37:42
How do I usher them into manhood?
37:43
No one did that for me, but that's a great way of thinking about it, but John, we're up
37:46
against time.
37:47
So we're going to go ahead and go to our very last section of the day.
37:50
So I like to ask this of a lot of the people that I talked to.
37:53
It's a segment called what would you say to someone that said?
37:56
What would you say to someone that said?
37:57
And it's essentially me asking you a question and you've got 30 seconds to respond to this
38:01
question.
38:02
So we can't get into a lot of detail.
38:04
We can't go deep.
38:05
It's just basically the meat and potatoes answer on a lot of different subjects.
38:08
Are you up for it?
38:09
Sure.
38:10
All right.
38:11
Let's go.
38:12
First one here.
38:13
What would you say to someone that said the last thing men need is another guy telling
38:16
them to man up?
38:19
Yes and no.
38:21
Yes and no.
38:23
Depends on that.
38:25
What men need is initiation and you do need men in your life who are calling you up, but
38:34
who aren't leaving you alone to figure it out?
38:37
Absolutely.
38:38
Next question here.
38:39
What would you say to someone that said pastors don't need to talk about the lion of Judah,
38:43
the lamb of God is just fine?
38:48
Well, why would the pastor take a pair of scissors to his Bible?
38:54
It's a fair answer.
38:55
It's a fair question as well.
38:56
All right.
38:57
We'll move on to the next one.
38:58
We'll leave that one alone.
38:59
What would you say to someone that said gender exists on a spectrum?
39:02
It's fluid.
39:04
Genesis one, 26 and 27, God said, let us make man in our image.
39:11
And so in the image of God, he made them male and female.
39:16
He created the gender is the core identity of the human race.
39:22
Jesus affirms that in Luke chapter 19, when he says, did you not hear that in the beginning,
39:29
he created them male and female.
39:33
There you go.
39:34
Amen and amen.
39:35
Next one here.
39:36
What would you say to someone that said, I don't have a battle to fight?
39:42
You've already lost.
39:43
I'm going to make you go a little bit further on that one.
39:47
Just a little bit.
39:48
You got another 20 seconds.
39:49
All right.
39:50
All right.
39:51
I'm going to take another 20 seconds.
39:52
Okay.
39:53
Of course, you do.
39:54
Every human does.
39:55
Every man does.
39:56
And to think that you don't means that the enemy has already convinced you that either
40:01
there is no war or that you can't handle it or that you don't have a significant role.
40:08
All three are of which are lies, the scripture tells you that you live in a world at war.
40:14
And that's why it tells you to armor up.
40:17
All right.
40:18
You can probably see these next two coming.
40:19
But what would you say to someone that said, I don't have an adventure to live?
40:26
Ask Jesus what he has for you.
40:29
I'm dead serious.
40:31
Ask him.
40:32
Ask him what adventures he has for you this year, small and large.
40:37
He has them.
40:38
I guarantee it.
40:39
All right.
40:40
What would you say to someone that said, I don't have a beauty to rescue?
40:44
Unless you have been called to a celibate single life by God, you are created for deep
40:57
romance, love, passion with one woman over the course of your entire life.
41:04
One woman that you love for a lifetime.
41:06
You're made for it.
41:07
You're wired for it.
41:08
My question is, what's in the way?
41:11
You haven't met her.
41:12
You're too scared to ask her.
41:14
You don't believe you can.
41:16
You've got to press into.
41:18
Why not?
41:19
All right.
41:20
Last couple here, John, what would you say to someone that said, we should not be encouraging
41:23
men to be masculine.
41:25
Masculinity is toxic.
41:27
Well, our prisons are not filled with women.
41:32
So let's reframe that to say masculinity is dangerous.
41:36
Yep, that's true, but so is a surgeon's scapble.
41:41
You don't make it safe by making it dull.
41:44
You put it in the hands of somebody who knows how to handle it.
41:48
We do need to acknowledge that men are profoundly broken and they do a lot of damage in the
41:53
world.
41:54
Most domestic violence is not committed by women either, but you don't castrate and then
42:00
tell the gelding to be fruitful to quote C.S. Lewis.
42:04
We need masculine formation now more than ever.
42:08
Excellent.
42:09
John, last question of the day.
42:10
What would you say to someone that said, other than the Bible, wild at heart is the
42:14
most important book for Christian men to read?
42:21
I would say you might be right.
42:25
You know, I'm going to make you go further than that, John.
42:27
Give me some more.
42:28
I'm pushing you on the last one of the day.
42:29
I'll give you a full minute for this one if you want to go for it.
42:34
Okay, there's a lot of really good books out there in the history of book production.
42:42
So I'm not going to put wild at heart at the top, but we have been describing how in the
42:48
last 100 years since the Industrial Revolution, essentially, we have lost masculine initiation.
42:55
We don't know how to initiate men anymore.
42:59
And there is an assault on the masculine soul ever since you were a boy.
43:04
So if you want your masculine heart back and if you want some very clear direction in
43:08
to masculine formation, wild at heart would be a really good choice.
43:13
I would certainly agree with that.
43:14
Well, John, we really appreciate the time that you spent with us today.
43:17
We've talked about a lot of different subjects, but as of right now, that's all for me.
43:21
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
43:23
Nope.
43:24
I just say guys, the things that you've been hearing today are probably some of the most
43:29
important issues of your life.
43:31
And if you've lost sight of that, I'm really glad you listened because the war is raging
43:38
on the earth and you are needed.
43:41
We need good men.
43:45
Absolutely.
43:46
John Eldridge, thanks for coming on Daunted Life, a man's podcast.
43:49
That was my pleasure.
43:50
Kyle, thanks for having me on.
43:56
There you go, guys.
43:57
I hope you enjoyed the interview.
43:58
I hope you enjoyed my time with John, just such a great interview.
44:01
That was when I was looking forward to for a very, very long time.
44:03
Again, like I said, my wife, my lovely wife went into labor the day that I was supposed
44:08
to be interviewing John and it was just, it was a whirlwind, but we're so glad we were
44:12
able to work with this team to get him rescheduled very quickly.
44:15
We're so happy that we had his time.
44:17
Guys, before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
44:19
As you know, by now, we are a men's ministry and our mission is cultivating manly resilience.
44:24
Specifically, we do that by providing content like this podcast that helps you forge spiritual
44:28
mental and physical toughness.
44:29
So today, here's the links I've got for you.
44:31
I've got the link to the Ransom Part website that is John Eldridge's ministry, so you can
44:35
get just about anything that you could want to get from John Eldridge and his team there
44:39
at ransomheart.com.
44:40
I've also got specific links to three of the books that we talked about on the podcast.
44:43
Get your life back wild at heart and beautiful outlaw.
44:47
And then I've got another Amazon link to all of his other books.
44:49
Like I said, he's written a ton of books.
44:51
He's had stuff that he's done with his wife.
44:53
It's just a lot of stuff, a lot of content out there for you to consume.
44:56
So a few other things here, I've got Life Church.
44:58
That's a church that's right here in my backyard.
45:00
They had John Eldridge come in and do something called wildlife.
45:02
And so I've got the links there because you can look at the different videos that he did
45:06
for that.
45:07
And so that was a really cool thing that was done here in the Oklahoma City community.
45:09
And then also I've got a YouTube video.
45:11
It's called Wild at Heart.
45:12
This is an interview with John Eldridge that I thought was especially awesome.
45:15
So I wanted to share that with you.
45:17
All right, guys.
45:18
Thanks so much for listening to the podcast today.
45:19
If you would, please subscribe on Apple podcasts.
45:21
I tune Spotify, Google podcasts or Stitcher and refer your friends to listen and share
45:25
this on social media, guys, if we deserve a five star of you, not for below any of those
45:29
worthless ones, five stars or more, please leave us five stars in a few sentences, letting
45:33
us know why you like the content.
45:35
I'm currently booking speaking engagements for the remainder of 2020 in the beginning
45:38
of 2021.
45:39
So if you want me to come speak on your podcast at your men's event, at your church, at your
45:42
team, at your business, whatever, hit me up via email info at undaunted.life.
45:46
Again, that's I N F O at undaunted.life.
45:49
The website is www dot undaunted.life.
45:52
You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at undaunted life or Facebook.com backslash
45:56
undaunted life.
45:57
Check out our free devotionals on the U version Bible app just search undaunted life under
46:00
plans.
46:01
And as always, we want to thank the band August Burns read for allowing us to use their entire
46:04
music library for our content.
46:06
The interaltrow track on this podcast is our song defender, which is off their latest record
46:10
entitled guardians.
46:11
The links are in the description.
46:13
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
46:15
Remember, keep cultivating mainly resilience, key forging spiritual mental and physical
46:21
toughness.
46:22
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
46:51
[BLANK_AUDIO]