132 – FR. MIKE SCHMITZ | Being Available And Capable

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0:30 This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.

0:51 I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.

0:53 Our guys today, we've got a special interview and this is with Father Mike Schmitz, okay?

0:57 So you might be thinking to yourself, well, you've never had a Catholic priest on the podcast before,

1:01 but I just got to tell you guys, I really enjoyed this conversation.

1:04 I was really looking forward to it and I'll give you a little bit more information as to why that is.

1:07 But first, let me just kind of read a little bit about his bio so you can get a little idea of who he is.

1:11 Father Mike Schmitz is the Director of Youth and Young Adult Ministry for the Diocese of Duluth,

1:16 the Chaplain for the Newman Center at the University of Minnesota, Duluth.

1:20 He was ordained a priest in 2003 after attending the St. Paul Seminary School of Divinity at the University of St. Thomas.

1:27 Father Mike provides podcasts of his weekly homilies on iTunes and BulldogCatholic.com.

1:32 He also appears in programs targeted toward youth and young adults for Ascension Press,

1:36 as well as regular short videos on Ascension Presents.

1:41 He's got a lot of stuff on YouTube guys. He does a lot of things, but this is kind of how I got introduced to him, okay?

1:46 So just kind of set the context. This is at the end of 2019.

1:50 So I had already recorded my best podcast of the year, you know, podcast episode.

1:54 I had kind of already done all of that, but then I had a buddy of mine named James.

1:58 He sent me some podcast information and different things like that.

2:01 But one thing that he did is he sent me the UMD Newman Catholic Campus Ministry Podcast

2:06 for the 22nd of December of 2019, and it was called Available and Capable.

2:11 And, you know, this is a buddy of mine. He's Catholic. I'm proud of him,

2:14 but we'll share some stuff back and forth sometimes, but it's, I just wasn't expecting this from him.

2:19 And I was like, he's like, dude, I really think you'll dig this. So, so give it a try.

2:22 I mean, the podcast was 25 minutes long or something like that.

2:25 So I was like, yeah, sure, I'll listen to it.

2:27 And so I turned it on and nothing grabbed me initially, right?

2:32 So there wasn't some sort of crazy introduction to the story or something like that.

2:35 But then it got crazy good. And I mean crazy good.

2:41 I loved the force with which he was talking. I loved the subject matters he went into.

2:47 He didn't seem like he was terribly concerned about offending anybody,

2:50 which obviously is appealing to a guy like me because you got to have a little bit of that in you

2:55 and a little bit of that bulldog in you.

2:57 But it was just such an interesting conversation to me and I talked about it with my buddy.

3:00 I was like, dude, that was amazing. And then I just kept listening to it.

3:03 I don't do a whole lot of repeat podcasting. That's not really something that I do.

3:07 So I'll save podcasts so that if, you know, I need to go back someday,

3:11 I'm all caught up on all my podcast shows and I just need to go check something out.

3:14 I will check out something that I've listened to before, but I just kept listening to this one.

3:18 And I think it was after the third or fourth time I listened to it.

3:21 I was like, okay, I got to reach out to this guy.

3:23 So I was able to, you know, track down his contact information,

3:26 divide him on the podcast. He was more than happy, happy to come on.

3:28 And I was so excited guys. I just got to tell you like preparing for these podcasts again,

3:32 whenever I prepare for a podcast, I want the guests to be as comfortable as possible.

3:36 And to look as good as possible because part of the time when,

3:39 when someone being interviewed doesn't come off well in a podcast,

3:42 it's because the people preparing the podcast didn't actually prepare.

3:45 They're just like, oh, yeah, I read their book or I heard, you know,

3:48 they're, you know, they're sermon once or I read a tweet and I'll just kind of flow with it.

3:52 But they're just not good at that. And so just in the researching of getting this podcast

3:57 ready to go just so I could talk to him, I just got even more excited because again,

4:02 he and I are going to disagree on a lot of things theologically, just by the virtue of the fact

4:07 that he's a, a, you know, Catholic priest and I'm a Protestant, right?

4:10 Just a regular dude that just, you know, does a podcast, right?

4:13 But I really, really enjoyed this podcast.

4:16 There's some tremendous nuggets on this podcast, but especially at the end, okay?

4:21 I pulled out a couple of different segments, some, some kind of new stuff that I want to kind of try on some of my guests.

4:26 And it couldn't have gone better. I couldn't have tried it with a better person.

4:29 And I think at this point, I've done enough to sell you on the fact that you need to listen to this interview all the way through.

4:34 So guys, without further ado, let's get into it.

4:37 Father Mike Schmitz, welcome to Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.

4:41 Thanks, Scott. I appreciate it.

4:43 Well, hey, we're so excited to have you on here.

4:45 You're the first guest of your kind that we've had on this podcast, but we're so excited to have you

4:49 and we'll get into kind of how I get even got turned on to you here in just a little bit.

4:53 But just from the beginning, I'm always hyper curious when somebody's in any type of vocational ministry,

4:58 kind of what calls you into that vocation to live a vocational ministry life.

5:03 And then more specifically, you do a lot of collegiate ministry.

5:05 So what kind of called you in that direction?

5:07 Yeah, I think that's a great question.

5:09 I think I would say that, you know, I was raised in a Christian family where it was important that we, you know,

5:15 prayed every day that we read our Bible that we went to church on Sunday.

5:19 And I guess I would say, you know, growing up, I'm like, I kind of want, I'm one of six kids and right in the middle.

5:26 - Wow, okay. - Yeah, they're three girls, three boys.

5:29 And so I'm the middle of the middle.

5:30 So I'm the middle boy as well as, you know, right in there, number four.

5:34 And so it was kind of a thing of like, I saw my older siblings.

5:38 I saw them, you know, messing up.

5:39 I saw them getting in trouble.

5:40 I'm like, oh, you know, if I just avoid doing what they're doing, I'm not pretty easy life.

5:45 You know, it's just kind of like that.

5:46 And I kind of, it kind of had me settle into kind of this idea of being a good kid.

5:51 And so it was kind of like, even when I came to church, it was like, well, I mean, I'll go.

5:54 I don't like it.

5:55 But I'll be a good kid, you know, that kind of mentality.

5:59 And that all changed when I was about 15 years old, 15, 16, somewhere in there.

6:05 And I had an awareness.

6:07 It was one of these, I call it a moment of grace where it was like, I knew the commandments

6:13 because, you know, my parents have been teaching me stuff and I've been going to church.

6:16 And I knew those were things out there like, yeah, don't do these, break these rules.

6:20 At one point, I just had this awareness that like, oh, my gosh, that's what I do.

6:25 Like, like, that's in me.

6:27 And it was, it was a matter of going from, like, oh, yeah, I hear, you know, Jesus is a savior.

6:32 Okay, got it or whatever to be like, oh, my gosh, I need a savior.

6:35 And it was like everything that they had been telling me up to that point clicked.

6:39 And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, like, this is exactly he.

6:43 Yeah, that's what I need.

6:44 I can't actually forgive myself.

6:46 I need God to forgive me.

6:47 And so that set me off on this, like, I need to pray and I need to get to know him.

6:52 I need to, like, find out, like, what does a God actually wants from me?

6:56 And so I did, you know, I started this.

7:00 And I remember at one point, it was very, very clear because I just experienced God's forgiveness

7:03 in an incredible way.

7:05 And I remember thinking, so we have in Catholic Church, we have this sacrament called confession.

7:11 And so I was like, yeah, I'm going to go to confession.

7:13 And so I remember getting on my bike at 15 years, so I rode my back across town to where the

7:18 priest lived, like, you're knocked on the door.

7:20 It was 10 o'clock on a Tuesday morning.

7:21 I remember this.

7:22 And knocked on the door.

7:24 And he opens because he, of course, of course he's home because, you know, priests will only

7:27 work one day a week.

7:28 And I was like, I go to confession.

7:31 I'll sure come on in.

7:32 Went, you know, went to confession.

7:34 And I left that house.

7:35 And I was like, God, if you want me to be a priest, I never thought about this before.

7:39 Like, you want me in ministry.

7:40 You want me to be a priest.

7:41 I will, I want to be there for, I want to hear anyone's confession anytime they ask.

7:46 Or I want to be there for someone whenever they ask.

7:48 Because I'm so grateful for what you've just done for me.

7:51 It was basically this desire for ministry born out of gratitude for what God has done for

7:56 me.

7:57 So that first thought was, God, thank you so much.

7:59 Second thought was, if you want me to be a priest, I'll do it.

8:02 My third thought was, oh, she's really cute.

8:04 Of course.

8:05 I don't know if you know this about priest, Kyle, is that they don't get married.

8:08 That's true, that's true, we'll talk about that, don't worry.

8:11 And so I was like, man, okay.

8:12 I mean, that began this up and down kind of thing of like, God, I am grateful for you.

8:17 And I need to get to know you better and better.

8:19 And I actually, I want to be your hands and feet in this world.

8:22 And also, I like girls.

8:26 So what do I do here?

8:28 And not that you couldn't, I mean, but this particular kind of ministry, like you said,

8:32 this particular vocation is, you know, metal laughter.

8:35 Jesus, and after St. Paul, not having gotten married.

8:39 So there's that.

8:41 And that just kind of came, every day I kept asking God, God, what does he want me to do?

8:46 And, you know, I dated a bunch of girls and would be praying a bunch.

8:50 And at one point I went to college to study theology because I was like, well, regardless,

8:56 like, God has to be the center of my life.

8:58 And regardless of whatever it were, it recalls me.

9:01 I want to talk about it.

9:02 I want to teach.

9:03 I want to serve.

9:04 So even if he doesn't want me to be appraised, I still want to be able to, yeah, I just want

9:09 to know everything I possibly can about God.

9:13 And then I was a missionary after I graduated.

9:15 I was a missionary down in Central America.

9:17 And I was teaching.

9:18 And it was, there's a long story there, but I was engaged to get married or getting ready

9:24 to get married when I got back from Central America.

9:27 And I had this another moment of real clarity, real grace, where it was just absolutely

9:33 clear that God was saying, like, this is where I'm inviting you.

9:38 I'm asking you, I'm inviting you.

9:41 This is what I want you to do.

9:42 I want you to go to the Catholic seminary.

9:45 And I was like, okay.

9:47 And it was an incredible, it was a crushing moment because I was just absolutely in love

9:51 with this girl.

9:52 But at the same time, it was an incredible moment of peace.

9:55 And I'm like, okay, yeah, this is what he's calling me.

9:58 This is God's voice calling me to take this next step.

10:02 It was tumultuous in that sense of being heartbroken.

10:06 But in the other sense of being, this is God's voice though.

10:10 You have to do it.

10:11 And then I went back to seminary to study theology and philosophy for the next six or so years.

10:18 And then once I got ordained, we have a bishop here.

10:22 And he said he wanted me to work with college students and he wanted me to work with our

10:26 high school and junior high students.

10:28 And so after a quick two years in a normal congregation, normal parish, I got assigned

10:36 to the University of Minnesota in Duluth.

10:38 And that's where I've been ever since.

10:39 That was 2005.

10:41 So I've been here for 15 years doing college ministry and doing high school and junior high

10:47 ministry, which all have, they all have the high points, the low points junior high.

10:53 The high point is they're awesome.

10:54 The low point is they all stink.

10:56 Right.

10:59 They've learned how to shower yet.

11:02 And high school is super great because they can be so quick to respond to the gospel.

11:08 But also they can be so quick to just kind of do whatever their friends are doing and kind

11:11 of go to eat.

11:12 They can be turned on really quick to the Lord.

11:14 I think also be turned off really quick.

11:16 And then college students, again, I just, I love them with college students because they're

11:20 in that place in life where it's just like they're asking the big questions of why am I here?

11:24 Where am I going?

11:25 What am I supposed to do?

11:26 Who am I?

11:27 Who is God?

11:28 And I just love being here for them.

11:29 And that's, that's amazing.

11:30 I appreciate you going to such detail on that story because, I mean, the reason that I even

11:34 found out about you was because of a podcast that was posted on the University of Minnesota

11:38 Duluth Newman Catholic Campus Ministry podcast.

11:41 I had one of my buddies, James shout out to James, who sent me your episode and the weird

11:45 thing about the episode is this was the episode called available and capable from the 22nd

11:49 of December of last year.

11:51 And I had already recorded my best podcast of 2019 podcast.

11:55 And then I listened to this one.

11:56 I was like, dang it, because it was such, it was such a good episode, but for so many

12:00 different reasons, because at the beginning, I wasn't exactly sure where you were going.

12:04 But, but essentially kind of the overall idea of the podcast was basically, are you available

12:09 to God to do what he asks?

12:11 But then even if you're available, are you capable of doing what he asks?

12:14 And so I'm going to get into a few sections and I'll of course include the link here at

12:17 the end for guys to check it out themselves.

12:19 But one of the biggest things, one of the earliest takeaways in that speech that you

12:22 did was that Joseph is normally depicted as an old man in artwork that he's normally

12:28 depicted as kind of this decrepit old man with young Mary and all those types of things.

12:32 But you talked about how if we can make Joseph weak, then we make him safe and how that affects

12:38 our culture with all this kind of, you know, nonsense about toxic masculinity and the proposed

12:43 solution is basically just make men weak and then they'll be safe, right?

12:47 But then also you had this quote that I just loved.

12:49 It's moms, if you're raising boys, you want your boys to be dangerous.

12:53 You want your sons to be dangerous men.

12:56 It is one of the things we're actually called to be men.

12:58 Would you rather be nice or would you rather be good?

13:01 Would you rather be fine or would you rather be dangerous?

13:03 And that speaks to me because my wife is in her third trimester and she's about to give

13:08 birth Lord willing to our son, our first born.

13:11 And that's just an awesome thing to hear.

13:13 But can you go a little bit deeper into that concept for us as to why you talked about

13:17 how Joseph is depicted and then also how that kind of carries through into culture?

13:21 Yeah, absolutely.

13:22 So historically speaking, Joseph has always been, virtually always been depicted as an

13:26 old man because in the history of the church, so even back the ancient, the church fathers,

13:32 they would talk about how that Joseph and Mary had not consummated their marriage that

13:37 Joseph, Mary was a virgin, not only before Jesus, but after having even birth to Jesus.

13:41 And I know that there's going to some discrepancies going, wait a second, this doesn't say that

13:45 Jesus had brothers in scriptures and we can get into like the interpretation of like the

13:50 Greek Adolph way, which can mean brother, but also can mean cousin in there.

13:55 But the tradition is that Joseph and Mary, Joseph, Joseph were there and they never consummated

14:02 their marriage.

14:03 So one of the ways that artists have depicted Joseph to make it so that, oh that makes sense

14:09 because he was just so old that he would either be uninterested in young Mary or incapable

14:16 of having a sexual relationship with young Mary.

14:20 And it's basically instead of like no, Joseph was so in control of his sexuality.

14:27 Joseph was such a man who actually had virility, but also control of his virility, that he

14:31 had like self mastery, like let's just make it so that he he couldn't have done anything.

14:37 Like, again, he was either disinterested or incapable and he realized, oh my gosh, is that

14:43 the model?

14:44 Like in any way, shape or form and any of the heroes of scripture, is it ever, you know,

14:49 they did the right thing because they couldn't do the wrong thing?

14:53 Or the thing that made them great was that they were uninterested in doing the wrong thing.

14:57 Like no, every single hero you and I have ever been a fan of, ever been moved by, inspired

15:03 by has been someone who absolutely recognizes that dark spot, dark place in their heart

15:08 that would want to use and abuse someone that could do the wrong thing and had the ability

15:14 to do it, but was able to harness that energy, the harness, that danger, harness that power

15:20 to dominate in order to use it as a power to serve.

15:23 And I think that that is just, it's massive.

15:25 It's so important because it reframes, not only Joseph, but it reframes like the call

15:31 of every man, but it also, and I completely agree with that.

15:36 It goes into what we call virtue and you actually talk about that a little bit later in the speech

15:41 that you gave.

15:42 You basically talk about it's not virtuous to be reckless and just do whatever, but it's

15:46 also not virtuous to be weak.

15:48 And I feel like now we get the idea that in order to be virtuous, you have to be weak,

15:51 but you talk about, you know, true strength and true virtue, like virtues means manly strength.

15:56 That's what it means.

15:57 And also, you go into a beautiful description of Jesus actually describing himself in the

16:02 gospels and he describes himself as meek and humble.

16:06 And obviously in a modern context, we think of meekness, meaning weakness, but you also

16:10 talked about the process of meeking a horse, I mean, meek a horse, you tame it.

16:15 You harness the horse's strength, power, and ability.

16:18 You don't just get rid of it.

16:19 You don't just delete it.

16:21 But there was a great quote here from here and then I'll get your comments on it.

16:25 That's what it is to be meek.

16:26 That's all the power you could possibly have, but under control.

16:30 Jesus, when he says I am meek, he is not saying I'm weak.

16:34 He's saying in me is all the power of the divine being under control and at your service

16:40 of those who need to be protected.

16:42 So how do you feel like we've gotten the message or the meaning of meekness so wrong

16:47 in terms of how we apply it today?

16:49 Yeah, isn't that crazy?

16:50 Isn't it?

16:51 Isn't it so interesting that I think one of the only reasons why we would have, um,

16:56 the word meek in our language is probably coming from the gospels.

16:59 I mean, uh, we, here's Jesus insribing himself as meek and humble apart and that's interpreting

17:05 that as meaning weak.

17:07 Um, and I think also there's, there's an element to it when we do make that connection with,

17:11 like, no, actually the, the term comes from, uh, meeking a horse.

17:15 Um, we often think of breaking a horse and, and so there's, there can be these two kind

17:21 of dichotomies.

17:22 Um, this, they, you said that, that recklessness, that kind of, uh, complete, uh, like the,

17:27 the rogue, the wild stallion, um, not Bill and Ted, but, um, the wild, the unbroken, the

17:33 untamed is just that, that out there or the broken horse, like even, we say, but even

17:38 like the tamed horse and meekness is somewhere in between, um, where a broken horse is.

17:44 I mean, just think about like, um, who was someone with a, describe someone who, who's

17:48 been, been broken or someone with a broken will, like, there's like, oh, that they're

17:52 done.

17:53 Like, they're not going to keep fighting.

17:54 They're not going to keep going.

17:56 They, they, they've, they've lost, they've given up broken.

17:59 Um, so you break a horse.

18:00 Yeah.

18:01 Cause you can't fight back anymore.

18:02 It won't versus meeking a horse, which would be again, not necessarily the same thing as

18:07 taming it and not the same thing as breaking it.

18:10 I guess maybe it's the same, uh, action, but it's not the same, uh, description to be

18:15 able to say, um, yeah, we've not, this horse still has all of the power it had when it

18:21 was that wild stallion, but now that power is again, under control, the power is at the

18:27 service of the one who's has mastery over it.

18:30 And that sense of like, man, how many, um, how many men particularly when it comes to,

18:36 uh, uh, their aggression or when it comes to their, uh, sexuality, when it comes to their

18:41 strength, um, keep being told to like either, yeah, just like, you know, it's the world

18:47 might say, yeah, get out there.

18:48 If you have the strength, man, use it.

18:50 Just go crazy.

18:51 If you have that, you know, that sex appeal, that whatever that thing is like, hey, as

18:54 many women as you possibly can use, go and use or the, uh, broken the do not use the,

19:03 um, I'm not used to don't, don't even use your strength versus this, this virtue lies

19:11 in the middle, right?

19:12 So that virtue that would be, um, all over the strength, but not used to dominate, um,

19:18 not dissipated, but that strength at the service, um, of the people in your life.

19:24 And I just think that this is remarkably important, particularly, um, I think you might even

19:29 reference this, but, um, Dr., uh, uh, Dr. Sasse, Dr. Leonard, Leonard Sacks who wrote

19:34 about, uh, the book boys in the book, boys adrift, um, have you read that book, Kyle?

19:39 Uh, well, that is on my list to read cause whenever baby boy gets here, it's like, all

19:43 right.

19:44 I got to start protecting you from all these people that say you're going to be evil just

19:46 because you have, uh, male genitalia, but it is certainly on the list.

19:50 Because in, in that book, he talks about, he says, our, our, what our culture has sold

19:53 us is he sold us this idea that either, um, men or boys are either the, uh, the brute,

20:00 like the, the kind of the thug who just kind of like dominates or the slacker dude.

20:05 Um, the kid who's just like, whatever, it's fine.

20:07 You know, it's completely, she'll completely call them now.

20:09 That might be someone's temperament.

20:10 Like they might be aggressive by temperament or they might be called by temperament.

20:14 But the idea that these are the only two options, uh, because temperament's not character.

20:19 That's the thing is, uh, temperance is just kind of the raw material that we're born

20:22 with.

20:24 But then under Christ, it gets forged and character gets, it's, it's a temper character

20:29 gets forged out of temperament.

20:31 And so we have this sense of like, okay, here's someone with a lot of strength.

20:34 I use it to dominate others, or here's my strength, but I just don't use it at all.

20:38 I just, you know, give, whether to play video games or do, I just don't use it.

20:42 I don't, you don't have to play video games.

20:44 Um, there's a middle way and that middle way would again be all of the strength, not

20:50 dissipated or wasted and all that strength, not used on myself to dominate, but all of

20:55 that strength I have at the service of the people in my life.

20:58 And so that's one of the things like, I think it's just so important for young men to recognize

21:02 that's one of the things, reasons I'm grateful for having siblings, um, many reasons grateful

21:06 for having siblings is, um, growing up then, it was like, okay, put your, that Mike, put

21:12 your strength to work for your little sister, put your strength to work to help your older

21:16 brother, put your strength to work to take, okay, I have a little brother who's 10 years

21:20 younger than me.

21:21 And so that sense of like, okay, here I'm 10 and okay, you're in charge of the one year

21:24 old, like 11 now, you know, in charge of the one year old, I'm like, okay, I, as a boy

21:32 and entrusted to care for this baby, um, you know, for my mom would say, you know, take

21:37 care from 20 minutes kind of thing, like, okay, I can do that, um, but that sense of

21:41 like strength at the service of others, not wasted and not used to dominate, but, um,

21:46 harnessed.

21:47 When I'm with you in the fact that I would agree with a third way feminist on the definition

21:51 of toxic masculinity, if it's only the categories that were, were given in that you describe,

21:56 right?

21:57 The dopey guy.

21:58 And there's a lot of different people that have looked at it.

21:59 The person who's completely overwhelmed with their carnal desires or the person that's

22:03 just completely disinterested in life in general.

22:05 Yeah, that's absolutely toxic, but they never describe the virtuous man and that even being

22:09 an option.

22:10 And another thing that you get into and you've alluded to it a little bit is just the overwhelming

22:15 concept of being a father and you say from the very beginning, if you're a man, you're

22:19 called to be a father and you have this great way of describing, you know, good dads, poor

22:24 their strength out of their youth, for their wives, for their kids, and there's a dignity

22:29 in that whenever you spend your youth on your wife and your children.

22:33 And that's one of the great things about old dads, but you also get into this talk about

22:37 how so many men have had their strengths stolen from them.

22:40 And some of them don't even realize it.

22:41 You talk about male lions that are fighting for alpha status over the pride.

22:45 And when they do so, they go after the other lion's genitals because they know if that

22:50 lion can no longer father that they're out, they're out of the gene pool pretty much.

22:54 And so, but you make this direct, really challenged to a lot of men, which is that most men have

22:59 their strengths stolen from them by pornography and that the devil has castrated men by using

23:05 pornography and most men don't even realize they're like, ah, you know, I'm just looking.

23:09 No big deal.

23:10 But the thing is, is that's the thing that makes you available, but not capable because

23:14 you're available to hear what God can say, but you're not capable.

23:17 Can you go a little bit deeper as to why you used pornography as kind of that main example

23:23 for how men can have their strengths stolen by the devil?

23:25 Yeah, absolutely.

23:26 I think, um, well, you know, I quoted, uh, Peter, when he said, uh, you're pointed to

23:30 levels proiling like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour, resist him solid in

23:34 your faith.

23:35 Um, and that, that it seems to me, one of the reasons why I would use pornography is because

23:40 my work with high school students, college students, young adult men, and then men who

23:44 are now getting married and the fact that pornography is so rampant, right?

23:48 It's like, it's got, I think, what they call the three A's.

23:50 It is available.

23:52 It is affordable.

23:53 It is anonymous.

23:54 It's just like it is everywhere.

23:58 And so it's, it is incredibly rare.

23:59 I think right now the, uh, first, uh, the average age, uh, a boy will have seen his first

24:06 pornography is, I think, seven years old right now.

24:08 I think it might be the, the average age, uh, that a young person, I might just be boy

24:13 or girl would encounter pornography is a seven.

24:15 Um, and now we have these magic rectangles that live in our pockets and have access to

24:22 everything.

24:23 And I just think about like the way in which I just think about the fact that, uh, in,

24:30 in the average American, uh, male, who's exposed and an average way to pornography has

24:36 now seen, um, more naked women than all of his male ancestors combined.

24:44 Sure.

24:45 Yeah, of course.

24:46 And that sense of like, okay, that does something to our minds.

24:48 It does something to our hearts.

24:50 And I don't think what it does is something that builds up our minds or builds up our

24:52 hearts, but it distorts them.

24:54 So I was talking with this young man, um, who had come through college here and a couple

24:57 of years ago and, and he's a fit guy and he likes to, uh, he's a personal trainer and

25:02 he trains for competitions and this and that, um, and he's, he's in love with this woman,

25:07 but, uh, intimidating for a while, a number of about a year and she wants to get married.

25:12 And he's like, I, I love her and everything, but I just, I sometimes find myself, uh, wondering

25:17 if I could do better.

25:18 Um, and like, and I was talking about like a better how, like he was like, well, not

25:21 known if we get along super well, we get, but just better, you know, physically.

25:26 And I'm like, okay, well that, that's a good question to be able to ask in the sense of

25:29 the fact that like, are you attracted to her cause you should be, um, but is it a matter

25:34 of, cause I didn't know his story and he was, I was like, is it a matter of the fact that

25:40 that's what the internet does is I'm done with this woman.

25:43 Click on the next thing cause that's someone better because newer is better in this, in

25:48 this scenario.

25:49 Uh, and it distorts the man's mind and distorts his heart to see his, uh, bride as, um, it's

25:57 just another, in a long line of naked bodies that I've seen and how quickly we can become

26:04 dissatisfied with the person that I've entrusted my entire life, my entire heart to because

26:09 why?

26:10 Because if I click, there's a newer body, there is another body, there's a better body

26:15 and it just, it makes a man incapable of giving his heart and giving his whole mind, giving

26:21 his whole self to one woman because he has trained himself for in selfishness and he's

26:27 trained himself to see women as, um, simply being there to give them, to serve him to

26:33 give themselves to him, whatever he wants, kind of a situation.

26:36 And what that has done is it said, okay, now, and it's under the illusion, right?

26:40 Of masculinity.

26:41 It's under the illusion of like, oh, this, um, I'm, I'm so manly.

26:45 I look at porn.

26:46 I love women so much that this is what I do, but it's made him incapable of doing what

26:51 a real man, true man actually does, which is, um, not simply, uh, have sex with a woman,

26:58 but can father that child, um, can love her, uh, to the end and, and that's the insidious

27:05 part of it.

27:06 What gets sold to us kind of as, as men as like, you know, porn being kind of a masculine

27:10 thing.

27:11 Ultimately in the end ends up emasculating most men.

27:14 I mean, emasculation certainly, and even beyond that, some men that they get so entranched

27:20 in it that they, they end up, you know, serving, they end up serving pornography.

27:24 I've heard so many stories about these people that, you know, it was, first, it was a playboy

27:28 that they hid in the woods when they were 12.

27:30 And then eventually they got into to kitty porn or rape porn.

27:34 And then they, even the porn wasn't doing it for them anymore.

27:37 So they had to try the real thing.

27:38 There's a story.

27:39 I remember about a guy that literally tried to rape a woman because he was like, I'm

27:42 not getting off to the rape porn anymore.

27:45 And you've, you've seen different organizations like porn hub and how they, they are basically

27:49 helping traffic in young women and young boys because there are these, these little girls

27:55 that they can't verify their age.

27:57 They just let these, these evil men upload these things to, to the internet and then everybody

28:01 can take a look at it.

28:02 But I think that dovetails nicely and we'll, we'll move on to other subjects outside that

28:07 podcast because I want everybody else to go listen to that episode.

28:09 But for you, you're a man that you mentioned it from the top that you've taken a vow of

28:14 celibacy, but you don't feel necessarily called to a life of celibacy technically because

28:19 you, you're still attracted to women you've talked about before that you still had that

28:23 attraction.

28:24 There wasn't some sort of magic switch that was flipped by God that, oh, all of a sudden

28:27 I just look at people as these random, orbless beings that just kind of move around.

28:31 But, but for you, and I think this will be helpful to our listeners, but also to any

28:35 of the people that you minister to in your area, how do you control your sexual desires?

28:40 Because just because you know, you are a priest that doesn't make you any more different

28:44 than any of us in terms of the desires that you feel.

28:47 So how do you control that?

28:49 Yeah.

28:50 That's a good question.

28:51 And I'm glad thanks for like asserting that piece of it like, no, it just as there's no

28:54 magic switch.

28:56 And as I said, like I had been planning on marrying this woman and you know, the other

29:04 girls that I dated before, like, yeah, absolutely.

29:08 I remember, I remember that same woman, I remember, I would just still be able to describe it

29:14 in like, if I was talking with someone that to be honest with, and to be vulnerable with,

29:19 I probably was in love with her still when I was in seminary, maybe even after I was

29:24 ordained.

29:25 And just like, yeah, no, absolutely.

29:28 And so the big question is, okay, so what is, what is celibacy, what's at the heart

29:32 of it?

29:33 What it looks like from the outside at the heart of celibacy is no, like no to, no to

29:38 women, no to sex kind of a thing.

29:40 And I guess that's part of it, obviously, but they'll be similar to looking at marriage

29:44 as being no, like marriage is just simply a marriage to Jessica, and that means no to

29:49 everyone else.

29:50 Well, that's part of it, but it really is a yes to Jessica, you know, it's a yes to

29:54 that, that, that wife.

29:56 And as often as a man comes back to the yes versus comparing all the nose and weighing

30:01 out all the nose, here's that woman at work, and like, ah, she's really attractive, but

30:06 no.

30:07 I have to say that no, versus I keep my eyes on the bride that I actually want to live

30:13 for, want to lay my life down for.

30:16 That's where the heart grows and a heart grows free.

30:18 And so that's one of the things that happened that's been, I've learned, I guess, painfully

30:23 I guess in some ways, because it's like, okay, God, what do you want me to do with this?

30:27 It's like, he's like, he's like, keep it, he rhymes on me and keep serving.

30:31 One of the things, so two things, one is recognizing that he's invited me to do this,

30:38 and as often as I do it, I'm doing it for him.

30:40 So one example or a story, I guess, I remember my first Christmas that I was ordained and

30:48 I, so I preached at church that Christmas Eve, and it was at back my home, my home church.

30:54 And so like my brothers and sisters were there with their families and my parents and all

30:57 these people I grew up with and I got done and mass was over and they're like, oh, that

31:01 was great.

31:02 You know, you really found your vocation.

31:03 God's really called you to this.

31:04 I'm like, yeah, that's awesome.

31:05 I love Jesus.

31:06 We went back home that night, my parents place and, you know, went downstairs, it was going

31:11 to what we did on Christmas Eve and we're all open in presence and hanging out and have

31:16 a good time.

31:17 And I got up to leave and I went to the other room and there was a photo album on the,

31:19 on the counter and I just opened it up and I opened it up to this page, there's all these

31:24 pictures from a couple of Christmases before that where I was there and it was the same

31:28 scene.

31:29 It was the Christmas Eve and there was the woman that I've been planning on marrying.

31:32 She's, you know, in all these photos and I, like it was a gut punch.

31:36 I felt my, literally fell to my knees and I was like, oh my gosh.

31:39 I just was like, cause I knew if one thing was different, if one thing was changed, I'd

31:45 walk out that door and she'd be right there, maybe with our child or children and I was

31:51 just like, oh my gosh, you know.

31:52 So I, you know, made myself presentable again and went back out into the, into the living

31:57 room and, and finished the night and you know, so my, my brother goes up to his room with

32:02 his wife and my sister goes to her room with her husband and I went to room with my room

32:05 with my sweaters and I knelt down and prayed and just like, God, okay, what's going on?

32:11 Like what is this?

32:12 Like I thought that I resolved all this stuff.

32:14 Like I thought that, that, that earlier today, God, I was so grateful that you had called

32:20 me to this.

32:21 And right now it is so painful that you've called me to this.

32:25 And in that moment, it was one of the top moments of grace in my life because it was,

32:30 it was in that moment where God was like, yes, you were very excited to see you love me when

32:37 people were praising you and when it felt good, I'm inviting you to love me even when

32:42 it hurts.

32:43 I'm inviting you to love me in this particular way, even when it means you've said no to

32:47 some other things.

32:48 Even when you said no to, and her name was Melissa, even when you said no to Melissa.

32:52 And I was like, oh, well, God, yes, in this case, in that case, yes, like, let this hurt,

32:58 let this ache be for you and let this be kind of a way in which I can actually love you

33:04 better.

33:05 And so it was, that, that was a big translation of being able to, instead of looking at all

33:09 the nose, all the women I'm saying no to, just to look at him and say, ah, this is giving

33:14 me a chance to say yes to you, God, in a different way than a lot of other men get to say yes

33:19 to God.

33:20 And the second thing was, as I mentioned in that, in that talk, the, what's the difference

33:27 between men and women is that women are the kind of human who is meant to be a mother

33:34 or is, can be, can be a mother.

33:37 And men are the kind of human beings who can be fathers.

33:41 And so people look at like my life and say, okay, so to celebrate, you're not, you're

33:47 not married, but you can't be a dad.

33:49 And one of the things that's so mysterious is, you know, we call priests, well, in the

33:54 Catholic Church, we call priests father.

33:56 And it's like, well, why do you do that?

33:57 Is it kind of this authority thing?

33:59 And so I felt super uncomfortable when I was first ordained, like these 80 year old men

34:03 saying to the 28 year old me, hey, father Mike, and I'm like, ah, yeah, you feel comfortable.

34:08 But what's happened is, you know, in ancient Israel, the father of the family was the

34:16 priest of the family, or the priest of the family was the father of the family.

34:20 And so fatherhood was intensely rooted in fatherhood, even back in the Old Testament

34:25 before the Golden Cafe episode where that was all transferred over to the Levitical priesthood.

34:30 It was if you were the dad, you're the priest of the family.

34:34 And so fatherhood and priesthood are so intimately connected.

34:37 And I would have to admit and confess that for years, I didn't get that.

34:42 And I'm so grateful that God has let me be on campus here for so long because when I

34:46 got here, I was just a couple years older than some of these students.

34:50 And now I'm at the age of their dads.

34:53 And it is, it is the most incredible thing to be able to like realize, God, I understand

35:01 ministering to so many of these young men and women doesn't just mean given a good sermon,

35:07 doesn't just mean kind of being quote unquote available or, you know, getting good counsel.

35:12 It ultimately means being a dad to them.

35:16 And that is, that is like so fully changed my heart to recognize that even in the celibis,

35:22 even in that, you know, not having biological children on my own, that here's God inviting

35:27 me deeper and deeper.

35:28 So a couple years ago, the students, you know, it just kind of naturally, I started doing

35:31 this.

35:32 I was like, oh, I walked in the door and they're like, oh, hey, dad, and I'm like, oh, all

35:37 right.

35:38 Just like, I'll be back just one second.

35:39 Give me a moment.

35:40 And that's become really common now.

35:42 And I'm just so moved and honored because I mean, I mean, I'm sure Kyle, you're going

35:46 to get this at some point when your son is able to say, dad, and it's just like, that's,

35:51 that's it.

35:52 That's who I get to be.

35:54 Not just, I'm not just provider, I'm not just defender, I'm not just the guy who teaches

35:58 you how to ride to be a dad, to be a father is to be all those things.

36:03 And to be a spiritual father is to is ultimately supposed to be all those things as well, I

36:08 think.

36:09 Well, I love that answer.

36:10 I especially love just to go back and guys, if you, you should probably re listen to that

36:14 that part where when people focus on the nose, just just really focus on the yeses whenever

36:18 it comes to your sexual purity, focus on the things that you do have, but, but real quickly

36:22 before we move on to any other subjects, because I know this is an issue.

36:26 We do have some ladies that listen to this podcast.

36:29 What would you say to women out there?

36:30 This is, this is in the vein of manhood and toxic masculinity and all that.

36:33 What would you say to the women out there who are struggling to find that good, strong

36:38 man?

36:39 Like they're, they're considering maybe, you know, lowering their standards or whatever,

36:43 or, you know, just ignoring some of the actual toxic things that are being spewed by the

36:47 guys are dating, but just, just quickly, what would you say to those women?

36:50 Yeah, I mean, two things just right off, off the cuff, I would say one is not to lower

36:55 your standards, but to be willing to change your expectations.

36:58 And what I mean by that is the standards are there for a reason.

37:01 I mean, the standards are there because you know that there was a difference between

37:04 a man who is willing to serve and a man is willing, only willing to use.

37:09 There's a man, a difference between a man who's like pursuing the Lord and a man is

37:12 like, okay, kind of sorta, okay with God, like, that's one of the things I'll always, you

37:18 know, some of the women that I'm working with, one of the challenges that I'll be willing

37:22 to challenge them with is, like, you see, he's okay, you know, he's okay going to church

37:27 with me.

37:28 Like, that's great.

37:29 I'm glad he's willing to go to church with you, but if you weren't there, would he be

37:34 there?

37:35 Like, if you didn't bring it up, would he be racing after the Lord?

37:40 Because that's a big deal, that's going to determine a lot of things.

37:44 I'm glad that he's willing, but wouldn't it be great if he was helping you rather than

37:49 you kind of taking on your project, so not lower the standards, but maybe having the

37:54 willingness to augment one's expectations.

37:57 What I mean by that is, there's the list, so one of my older sisters, she had her list

38:06 of like, it was really simple, because she knew what she was all about.

38:10 She was all about.

38:11 She's right now, she's an architect surgeon, she's gone, she's done the Iron Man World

38:15 Championships numerous times.

38:16 She's been like an incredible athlete, incredible trainer, incredible doctor, great mom, but

38:23 she had her clear, very clear standards about the kind of man that she'd be willing to marry.

38:27 So she never changed those standards, but her expectations column was, she never wanted

38:32 to marry, she had only two things in the expectation column.

38:37 He had to be taller than her, and he couldn't have red hair.

38:42 So she learned that it wasn't appropriate either, because her husband is, my sister's

38:53 5'9", her husband is 5'9", and we call him "Fire", because he has red hair.

38:59 Yes, there you go.

39:01 So in this though, she didn't lower her standards, but she did, she was willing to change her

39:05 expectations.

39:06 Like, a manly man has to look like this, or a man of God has to act like this, like no,

39:11 he might actually be rougher around the edges than you might expect.

39:15 He might be less rougher on the edges than you would expect.

39:20 Like, that sense of character rather than characteristics, I think, is one of the keys.

39:27 So don't lower your standards for his character, but you might be open to changing your expectations

39:34 about his characteristics.

39:35 That's what all I'd say, I guess.

39:36 Right.

39:37 Certainly good advice.

39:38 Now we'll change subjects just here a little bit, and obviously I think this is important

39:42 to talk about, and I'm sure you've had to talk about it a lot, but when people think

39:46 about the Catholic Church, and especially if they're outside the Catholic Church, some

39:50 of the things they think of first are not exactly nice things.

39:52 They think about some of the sexual abuse scandals, especially back a couple of years

39:57 ago, I recorded actually episode 37 of this podcast was called "The Devil and the Catholic

40:01 Church" because I was talking about what had come out of that grand jury testimony from

40:06 the state of Pennsylvania and the in the long thing that they did and how that was basically

40:10 not a thing that was focused just on that one area.

40:14 It could have been a lot of other areas, and you know, people think about those scandals

40:18 and they think about kind of the cover-ups.

40:20 Obviously people have made a lot of to do about the lavender mafia as it's called about,

40:24 you know, these men that are homosexual, but also very, very important and an important

40:29 leadership positions within the church because there does seem to be an issue with homosexual

40:34 clergy and that kind of exacerbates some of the other issues we've talked about.

40:37 But how, I guess, and I hope this question is fair because I mean it to be, how is the

40:42 outside world to trust the Catholic Church?

40:45 How is the outside world to take seriously some of the declarations of morality within

40:50 the church?

40:51 You know, does it make it harder to communicate to your flock?

40:53 Because I know Ireland had a really big problem when they just approved abortion in their

40:57 country a couple of years ago, and it was because they basically told the Catholic priest,

41:02 "Oh, I'm so sorry, you've been raping boys, we're not going to listen to you."

41:05 That was some of the things people were saying, some of these nasty things, and in some of

41:09 the cases they were correct, but do you find it harder to communicate with people about

41:14 morality when people just want to point at these examples?

41:17 Oh, absolutely.

41:18 Yeah, no, that is without a doubt true because it's at any point we want to like take a stand

41:25 and say, there's right and there's wrong, there's good and evil, particularly when it

41:31 comes to sexual morality, like all of a sudden it's like, "Well, yeah, you're one to talk

41:36 kind of a situation," where it's like, "Yeah, I remember 2004 was when I was ordained, and

41:44 that's also the time that the scandal in Boston and other places broke."

41:49 And I remember very, very clearly on, the night I was ordained, we went to this, there's

41:56 this German restaurant in the Twin Cities, St. Paul, Minneapolis, that my family would

41:59 always go to.

42:00 We knew the owner of the owner was this great Polish, it's interesting.

42:04 He's a Polish immigrant who's named Mario, who with an Italian name, who runs a German

42:09 restaurant.

42:10 Of course, makes perfect sense.

42:12 But you know, I went to this and just kind of celebrated, "Yeah, you know, here."

42:15 So this is the first time we're in like clerics, you know, like the priest gear with the white

42:21 color, everything.

42:22 And I get to go to the bathroom and I walk by these guys, or maybe I'll pop my age, and

42:26 we're walking by them and I hear this job molester, and I was like, "Oh," and as I walked

42:33 me and went to the bathroom, I was like, "Oh, that's what life is going to be like now."

42:39 First part of me wanted to like stop me like, "Are you kidding me, you know, kind of this?"

42:46 But I was like, "Oh, that's what, okay."

42:49 And I just, there were times, you know, then from then on, I mean, it's been oftentimes

42:53 where you go to the grocery store, and here's the mom who takes their kid and puts them

42:57 on the other side of them.

42:58 I'm like, "I just, you guys, I have never done anything like this, you know, that you

43:03 want to defend yourself."

43:04 And we want to get angry, obviously, I'm angry at the men who did this, obviously, but you

43:10 kind of want to angry at people who are thinking badly of you, and that's not, that's misplaced

43:15 anger.

43:16 The anger really goes to the heart of A, like you said, anyone who did it, and then B, anyone

43:22 who would have covered it up.

43:24 And so that's been, that's been, ever since the very first day I was ordained, that has

43:29 been a thing that I've carried every single day.

43:31 In fact, when I put on the black shirt every single day, it's like, yeah, this is not a

43:36 badge of honor.

43:37 This is often made by so much of the world, is seen as a sign of whether it's perversion

43:45 or weakness or disgust, you know.

43:47 So yeah, I think it's weakened in many ways.

43:51 On the other hand, not on the other hand, at the same time, at the same time, I can't,

43:59 I'm not going to cry in my soup about this because about the fact that like, yeah, it

44:04 makes it more difficult because it's a reminder to me every single day of not only do I need

44:10 to be better, do I need to have more and more virtue and to be the example of the men I

44:14 wish those other guys had been.

44:16 But secondly, I cannot feel badly for myself to getting looks, you know, getting negative

44:22 looks or people thinking that maybe he's a guy who would do this kind of thing because

44:28 there have been so many people who have been hurt by men who dressed like me, by men who

44:33 professed the same faith that I professed.

44:35 Now, whether they believed it and just failed to do it or they didn't believe it but used

44:41 the teachings of the church or their authority to abuse people, it doesn't, I mean, it matters.

44:46 But like, what I put on and think like, again, we're in this and people think badly of me,

44:53 like these kids who they didn't do anything wrong and they've had to live with this every

44:57 day, what I have to do is so much more, so much less than that.

45:02 And so that's the first thing.

45:03 Now, I know that's kind of far afield from what you asked about.

45:06 You asked about, is it hard to proclaim a teach morality in the midst of this?

45:12 At first, yes, ultimately, if someone is willing to, I think when it comes to preaching, if

45:18 someone's willing to trust you in any way, shape or form, then they're willing to trust

45:22 you and if they're not, then the goal of the job of the preacher or the priest or whoever

45:27 it is, is to say that, establish in reality that you're worthy of trust, I think.

45:34 But if you want, there are probably more questions behind that, so I'll let you open that back

45:37 up.

45:38 Well, I think that's actually a fair answer because the thing is there's not a correct

45:42 answer.

45:43 And at the end of the day, you know, I'm a St. Louis Cardinals man as an example.

45:47 So if you've been assaulted by somebody that wore a St. Louis Cardinals hat and then you

45:50 see me wearing a hat and it brings up those bad memories, that's not my fault.

45:54 But that's kind of a silly kind of micro example.

45:57 But the thing is, is you can only be responsible for who you are.

46:01 But from the outside world, you're a group and everyone sees you as like, Oh, well, you're

46:05 one of those guys that wears the black shirt and I remember that.

46:08 And there's nothing that can be said to take away those things.

46:11 I'm just glad that we don't live in this, this post Christian world where all these,

46:16 all these people, you know, if you're an evolutionary biologist type person or that type of thing,

46:20 there's no concept of justice.

46:22 There is no cosmic justice.

46:24 There is no way that every tier will be picked back up.

46:26 There's just pain.

46:28 There's just pain with these little cracks of happiness every now and then when you find

46:33 an extra $20 or when you kiss a girl for the first time, like it's just, it's this world

46:37 view that it's an impossible thing to answer.

46:39 So I think it's a fair way of answering.

46:41 But even to kind of move on here, because we don't have all data to go too far into all

46:45 that.

46:46 And even with this question as well, one of the things is for me as a Protestant who did

46:50 not grow up in church, kind of grew up in a family that, you know, we were, we were

46:53 Oklahomans and so we were Christians by birth, I guess.

46:56 So it's just kind of one of those things that just happened because you were born in the

46:59 middle of the country.

47:00 But for me, I do have some, some hang ups and now is not the time to get into an exegesis

47:05 of all these things.

47:06 But I've, I've some hang ups and a lot of my friends have some hang ups with some certain

47:09 Roman Catholic doctrines.

47:11 But for me specifically, the concept of the pope, the assumption of Mary and purgatory

47:17 are some of the ones that just come up to mind for me more often.

47:21 And for me, the thing that's so difficult is I can't find defenses for these things

47:26 in scripture.

47:27 And again, you don't need to break down all three of those.

47:30 But for someone on the outside looking in looking at the tradition, Roman Catholic tradition

47:34 and doctrine, why do you believe in things that seemingly don't have a direct correlation

47:40 to anything in scripture?

47:41 Yeah.

47:42 And that's a great question.

47:43 I had a couple of those, those examples too, I would say that everything, so all, all of

47:47 our data for theology comes from divine revelation, right?

47:50 So all of the data we have comes from divine revelation.

47:53 So there's not going to be something that's contradicted in scripture.

47:56 You have the question of what, where do you, how can doctrines exist if they're not explicitly

48:04 found in scripture?

48:05 And the first doctrine, I would say that is really important to say is found in scripture

48:09 is the first page, like the table of contents, like wait a second, how'd you get that page?

48:15 Because that page of the, here's the books of the New Testament, here's the books of

48:18 the Old Testament, that's only in our modern Bibles.

48:22 That's not like they didn't fall out of the sky.

48:24 Those are, you know, 73 books or 66 books.

48:28 Why these books?

48:30 And you go back and say, okay, wait, there's a historical foundation for that.

48:34 And there was a historical foundation.

48:35 It's not only the fact that they were used by the early church and whatnot, but in the

48:40 year 298 in the council of Carthage, the Catholic church said, these are the books.

48:45 These 73 books are the books of the Bible.

48:48 And like, okay, so even the very, that very notion of this is the Bible as the word of

48:53 God is fantastic.

48:55 I'm on top.

48:56 I'm behind that.

48:57 Amen.

48:58 All of that.

48:59 It is the inerrant, complete word of God, yes.

49:03 But how do I know these books?

49:04 And that's why St. Augustine, in the 4th century, he even said, I would not have believed

49:08 in the authority of the Gospels.

49:10 Had not the Catholic church told me I could believe in the truth of the Gospels.

49:15 And so that sense of like even the veracity of Scripture comes from the authority of

49:19 the church.

49:21 So that first piece, even if you say, like, you go back and say, you know, all Christians

49:25 we believe in, what we believe in the incarnation that Jesus is fully God and fully man, we'll

49:29 believe that now, but early on in the, you know, 3rd century, 4th century.

49:36 One of the biggest heresies was by a guy named Arius and Arianism was massively had taken

49:41 over almost all of the church at the time where people were like, well, Jesus isn't fully

49:47 God and fully man.

49:48 He's like, half God, half man.

49:49 Well, how do we, how are we so certain, right?

49:51 Because Arius is reading the same Bible and you realize, okay, it was Council of Nicaea

49:55 in 325 where the Pope and the bishops came together and said, no, no, no.

49:58 We definitively state that Jesus is fully God and fully man and every Christian puts

50:02 their faith in that, in that interpretation of the Bible because, you know, all those

50:08 kinds of pieces where there's even the Holy Spirit being the third person of the Trinity

50:12 from the Council of Constantinople in 381, it's like, okay, you can read the Bible now

50:18 with that lens of like, of course, that the Holy Spirit is fully God.

50:22 But you could also read it from a different perspective and say, oh, I don't know.

50:26 But if we're going to say we absolutely are absolutely certain that Jesus is fully God

50:31 and fully man, even though he says the Father is greater than I, no, no, no, that's, that's

50:36 this interpretation where in his humanity, the Father is greater than him.

50:40 Okay.

50:41 But how do we know that unless there was an authority that said this is the authoritative

50:46 interpretation.

50:48 And that's comes from the, and every Christian accepts that.

50:51 We accept the list of the books of the Bible.

50:53 We accept the authority or the incarnation as fully God fully man.

50:57 We accept the Trinity that, what that basically is saying is we're accepting, at least in

51:02 those cases, the authority of the Catholics church to interpret scripture or to even give

51:07 us the scripture.

51:09 So when you get to the pope, fantastic, Matthew chapter 16, you have the time where Jesus

51:15 goes up to Cesaria Philippi and he asks, who do they say that I am?

51:21 Well, some people say your Elijah, sometimes you're my one of the prophets, who do you

51:25 say that?

51:26 And Simon says, you're the Messiah and Jesus, you know, scripture says, blessed are you

51:32 Simon, son of Jonah, bless you, bless not reveal this to you, my heavenly father, therefore

51:36 I say to you, you are Peter and upon this rock, I'll build my church and the gates of hell

51:39 will not prevail against it.

51:40 And I'll give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

51:43 Well, you bind an earth, bound in heaven, loose under the loose in heaven.

51:46 And so there's the course, Simon being his name changed to Peter.

51:50 Now the interesting thing about Cesaria Philippi, I'm not sure if you've ever been to Israel,

51:53 but at Cesaria Philippi, there is this massive, massive rock and into this rock are built

51:59 at least three temples, like it's huge.

52:02 And so here's Jesus who goes all the way up to Cesaria Philippi to ask this question.

52:06 Who do people say that I am?

52:07 And when Simon answers right, he says, I mean, Jesus didn't have PowerPoint.

52:10 So it makes sense that he had this visual demonstration of here is a rock upon which

52:16 a church is built and he's saying, you Peter are now rock and upon this rock, I will build

52:22 my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

52:24 He goes on though and this is the part that likely relates to our modern understanding

52:29 of the pope.

52:30 He says, I'll give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

52:32 Will you open?

52:33 No one shall shut.

52:34 Will you shut?

52:35 No one shall open.

52:36 That is a direct reference to Isaiah chapter 21 and the role of the al-Haba'it or the head

52:42 of the house, the prime minister of the kingdom of Israel.

52:46 So the prime minister is like the steward, like the steward of Gondor in the Lord of

52:49 the ranks.

52:50 Right.

52:51 So Aragorn is the king, but when Aragorn is gone, the steward is in charge.

52:56 Jesus is the king.

52:57 And when the king is gone, here's the steward.

53:00 And Jesus at that point references and says, Peter, you are the al-Haba'it basically, you

53:05 have the keys because if you go look at Isaiah 21, what you see is this role of the steward.

53:10 Jesus in scripture uses the exact same wording.

53:14 He'll have the keys to the house of David on his shoulder.

53:17 What he shuts, no one shall open, what he opens, no one shall shut.

53:20 And so in that moment, we are like, oh my gosh, this is completely, you imagine that

53:24 the apostles right from the very beginning would have said, Jesus just made Simon, I

53:28 mean, slash Peter, the al-Haba'it.

53:31 Because at that point, especially Matthew's gospel, it's all about Jesus is the king and

53:37 he's establishing the kingdom on earth.

53:40 And so all these kingdom references all throughout Matthew make sense then ultimately in Matthew

53:44 16 where he says, yeah, here's the kingdom I'm establishing.

53:47 I'm also giving you the keys to the kingdom just like the al-Haba'it or the prime minister

53:51 did in Isaiah 21.

53:54 So that's just a quick, I mean, there's some more examples or two where after the resurrection,

53:59 Jesus says to Peter, feed my sheep, tend my lambs, even though he's the good shepherd,

54:03 he sells Peter, you have this particular role amongst the flock or even in Luke where Jesus

54:09 says to Peter, Simon, Satan has a desire to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed

54:15 for you specifically Peter that after you have failed, you'll come back and strengthen

54:19 your brother.

54:20 After you've returned to me, you've come back and strengthened your brother.

54:22 And so the church has always seen that role of Peter, he's one of the apostles, but the

54:27 first among the apostles as being unique.

54:30 So there's more to say about that, but I just kind of wanted to kind of point out a couple

54:35 places where we would get the idea of the pope from the Bible.

54:38 Well, there's certainly more to say and this is just kind of what I do.

54:41 I asked these gigantic questions and pretend you can answer them quickly just so I can get

54:46 you on for a second time or something like that.

54:48 So I'm sure down the road, we'll be able to check some more of that stuff out.

54:51 So obviously, you know, I'll try to my best to get you on here again to where we can go

54:55 a little bit deeper on those topics.

54:56 But right now, I want to kind of do a couple of different lightning rounds and the first

55:00 lightning round of questions is what do you think of blank and I'm going to insert a person

55:05 and you've got 30 seconds, 30 seconds maximum on each one of these people to just give us

55:11 in the listeners, a quick hitter as to what do you think of these people?

55:14 So are you game for that?

55:15 I'll do my best.

55:16 Hopefully I know who you're talking about.

55:17 I'm assuming you'll know most of these people.

55:19 So all right.

55:20 First one.

55:21 What do you think of Jordan Peterson?

55:23 Oh, fantastic.

55:25 I am really grateful for his teaching and really grateful for his, his witness to truth.

55:32 So 12 hours for life is, I think, a fantastic book and I, yeah, A plus.

55:40 A plus.

55:41 All right.

55:42 Yeah.

55:43 You're doing well to keep it under 30 seconds because that that those are the rules.

55:45 Those are the rules.

55:46 All right.

55:47 What do you think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

55:48 Oh, man.

55:49 When I read Eric Mantaxas' book, Bonhoeffer, it's it.

55:56 I prayed with that probably for at least a good half year.

56:00 I just, I loved the book and fell in love with that man.

56:04 Yeah.

56:05 That guy's a gangster.

56:06 He's one of my heroes.

56:07 All right.

56:08 Next one.

56:09 What do you think of C.S. Lewis?

56:10 Oh, so I can hardly get through a conversation without quoting two things.

56:15 One is the office.

56:16 The other is C.S.

56:17 Lewis.

56:18 Well, C.S.

56:19 Lewis, you even have that in your email signature.

56:21 You got C.S.

56:22 Lewis right there.

56:23 Yeah.

56:24 So I, yeah, I can hardly get through a sermon without referencing at least either him or

56:29 something that he taught me in the course of my reading of his works.

56:33 Awesome.

56:34 What do you think of Pope Francis?

56:36 I think he is the Pope.

56:38 Okay.

56:39 Well, next one is kind of like the last one.

56:42 What do you think of Pope Benedict?

56:44 I, Pope Benedict taught me so much.

56:46 I had, so I grew up with Pope Chompal II and just like, yeah, what a great role model is

56:52 in the great.

56:54 And then I was like, oh, who's, you know, Colonel Ratzinger, okay, fine.

56:58 And then I had to study him and when I read Pope Benedict's stuff, it is absolutely crystal

57:03 clear.

57:04 It is so meticulously thought out, so thought out in depth with not only the, he's, I think

57:10 he's one of the greatest theologians in the last century.

57:12 Yeah.

57:13 I'm a big Pope Benedict fan.

57:15 So all right.

57:16 Next one.

57:17 What do you think of Donald Trump?

57:18 I think, I like Ben Shapiro, how he goes, he talks about good Trump, bad Trump.

57:24 I think that he has, unlike many politicians, he has done exactly what he said he would

57:28 do.

57:29 And so I'm grateful for that.

57:30 I'm really grateful because a lot of things he said he would do are things that I would

57:33 get behind at the same time.

57:36 Sometimes I'm like, oh, why do we have, why do you have to say it?

57:38 Why do you have to say that?

57:39 Like, why do you have to tweet that?

57:40 That doesn't seem to, even like if you were like trying to get people, push people's buttons.

57:45 Sometimes one of my mom accidentally texts in all caps, I always like, oh, wrong.

57:50 And so when someone tweets in all caps, I'm always like, oh, buddy.

57:55 So I appreciate when he's done what he said he would do.

57:58 And I sometimes wish that he would not say the things he says.

58:02 All right.

58:03 Next one.

58:04 Contrastingly.

58:05 What do you think of Joe Biden?

58:07 Sleepy Joe.

58:09 Sleepy Joe.

58:10 That's the one.

58:11 I think that, gosh, I can't imagine voting for him.

58:17 I would say that I just, I don't have a lot of confidence in, you know, it's hard to

58:24 say you have, it's hard to bring up character after Trump as an important thing for Christians

58:34 to look to when it comes to our political leaders.

58:38 But I would say that it seems in his life as a politician, he's also demonstrated that

58:44 maybe a lack of a solid character, as well as a solid plan to help.

58:49 He could be the vanilla that American needs in the sense of like, and we can all agree

58:53 we like vanilla, right?

58:55 Yeah.

58:56 Okay.

58:57 Maybe that would be the only, the only route I would say to kind of endorse some like Joe

59:01 Biden is like, okay, this is going to unite everyone.

59:04 Why?

59:05 Because no one hates him that much.

59:06 Gotcha.

59:07 One quick thing as a follow up to Joe Biden before I ask you about this last person is

59:12 would you allow him to take mass in light of his outright and full-throated supportive

59:16 abortion?

59:17 Right.

59:18 So that if someone stands in public opposition to a church teaching and not only public opposition,

59:23 but it has advocated the exact opposite, they, they should not, they should not present

59:30 themselves, receive Holy Communion.

59:32 And if someone were to do that, that would be a tough call, but that would be the right

59:36 call is to deny someone who is in public and present.

59:41 It's like, you know what St. Paul was writing about in 1 Corinthians chapter 5, he's talking

59:45 about that man who was living with his father's wife.

59:48 It's like, yeah, by the very, by the witness of the very life, they've revealed that the

59:53 not in communion with us.

59:55 So yeah.

59:56 Fair enough.

59:57 Thank you for that answer.

59:58 Last one on this lighting round.

59:59 What do you think of Martin Luther?

1:00:01 I, a good question.

1:00:03 I think that there had been many times where the church needed to be reformed up to up

1:00:12 until 1500 and since 1500.

1:00:16 And without, it was done without revolution, and it was done where it was done by saints.

1:00:23 And I wish that Martin Luther had been a saint, because I wish that, because the result of

1:00:29 the Reformation is now 30,000 different denominations when there had been one church for 1500 years.

1:00:35 And I think that it began a, a series of divisions and began a series of, we, we should

1:00:45 be united as Christians.

1:00:46 And I think he started the division.

1:00:48 Okay.

1:00:49 I think you and I should read Eric Metaxas' book on Martin Luther and then have another

1:00:52 conversation about it.

1:00:53 But thank you for going through all those.

1:00:55 There is one more lightning round left and, and I will give you this quick one.

1:00:59 This lightning round is called, what would you say to someone that said blank?

1:01:03 And these are going to be statements I've heard said about just society, about the church,

1:01:07 about you.

1:01:08 And the thing is, is you, I'll give you a top twice the time.

1:01:12 I'll give you 60 seconds to answer these.

1:01:14 But I will warn you, these are big topics, but the reason why I want to put them in this

1:01:18 lightning round concept is because sometimes people like to get a little flarity with their

1:01:22 words to try to soften the blow of what they actually believe.

1:01:26 I'm a pretty direct guy.

1:01:27 The guys on this podcast appreciate directness.

1:01:29 So these are huge topics.

1:01:31 Each one of these topics could probably be its own hour long podcast, but I'm forcing you

1:01:35 into these parameters as long as you accept them.

1:01:37 Right.

1:01:38 Thunder round.

1:01:39 Okay.

1:01:40 Let's do this.

1:01:41 So when that said, we could get rid of the Catholic priest sexual abuse problem.

1:01:46 If we just let priests get married, I would point out that most sexual abuse happens by

1:01:52 married men, and that's the, that's the, the simplest that there, the John Jay study reported

1:02:01 that actually Catholic priest, the abuse in the Catholic priesthood is not significantly,

1:02:07 but it's less than, or it's equivalent or less than in all of the denominations.

1:02:12 So every church and every synagogue has abusers amongst its clergy.

1:02:18 In fact, if you, the, the chances of a child getting abused in the public schools is a

1:02:23 hundred times greater than they are from being abused in a, by a Catholic priest or in a Catholic

1:02:29 church.

1:02:30 So celibacy is not the problem and letting priests get married is not the answer.

1:02:37 All right.

1:02:38 Appreciate the answer.

1:02:39 What would you say to someone that said women can be priests too?

1:02:42 I would say only dad, only men can be dads and the heart of the priesthood is fatherhood.

1:02:48 Next one here.

1:02:49 What would you say to someone that said it is not a sin to be gay?

1:02:53 I would agree that it is not a sin to have certain feelings or have certain attractions.

1:02:57 They can be a sign of our human, our fallenness as human beings.

1:03:02 It's not a sin to want to lie to get out of a situation.

1:03:05 It's not a sin to say, I, I, I'm attracted to women other than my wife, but it would

1:03:10 be a sin to act on those desires.

1:03:12 And so that would be the distinction I would want to make first.

1:03:16 All right.

1:03:17 What would you say to someone that said you can be Catholic and support abortion?

1:03:23 I would, I would have to ask them, what is your basis for saying that?

1:03:28 And they could say, like, maybe they're a good, good, natured person and good, hard

1:03:30 of good, good person.

1:03:31 And they say the basis for saying that is because we need to take care of women.

1:03:34 I would say, I agree.

1:03:35 We need to take care of women.

1:03:37 You know, how many women are aborted every week, every month, every year in America.

1:03:43 So I think we need to take care of all women.

1:03:44 But I also disagree that we don't just need to take care of women that are born.

1:03:50 And ultimately, you, a person can't be Catholic and endorse or support abortion.

1:03:57 Next one here.

1:03:58 What would you say to someone that said there is no difference between Catholics and Protestants?

1:04:02 We are all just Christians.

1:04:04 I would say we are all Christians.

1:04:06 And that's the truth.

1:04:08 But if there were no difference, then why aren't you Catholic?

1:04:12 And then I would ask you, why aren't you Protestant?

1:04:14 I, I'd say we were here first.

1:04:17 Okay.

1:04:18 Okay.

1:04:19 I guess they're first, you, you called shotgun before everybody else, but I, but I got to

1:04:22 the car first.

1:04:23 All right.

1:04:24 Next one.

1:04:25 What would you say to someone that said, I cannot believe in a loving God that condemns

1:04:29 people to help?

1:04:31 I would say that, um, I, of course, on these things, I'd always first ask a question.

1:04:37 So I'll, I'll, I'll just launch into my response.

1:04:39 I'd say only a loving God, uh, in order for, in order for God to be loving, uh, hell has

1:04:45 to exist, and the reason why is because, um, this world has suffering and sin and brokenness

1:04:52 in evil in it.

1:04:54 Um, why does God not remove all evil from this world?

1:04:57 Why does he not just remove all sin and sinners from this world?

1:05:00 And the answer is because he allows us to be free, um, God allows us to be free.

1:05:05 He respects our, our free choices.

1:05:07 Um, so in order to preserve our freedom, God allows the possibility of evil in this world.

1:05:14 So I believe that when people die, God just brings everyone to heaven.

1:05:18 Okay.

1:05:19 Well, that's a, that's what someone would say like, okay, well, so you're saying that

1:05:23 at the hour of your death, the moment of your death, God is going to overwhelm your free

1:05:26 will and take you to heaven, even if you don't want heaven and say, well, yeah, cause that's

1:05:31 what a good God would do.

1:05:32 Good.

1:05:33 Oh, so a good God would, would let you, let you live in this world where you have choices,

1:05:38 but basically at the end of your life, say you don't really have a choice when it comes

1:05:41 to the most important thing in existence, you don't have a choice.

1:05:45 So basically that rules out in over, over rules, all other choices you made in your entire

1:05:49 life, uh, if at the end he's going to overrule that one choice for him or against him, not

1:05:55 only that, but if he's going to do that at the end of our lives, then why does he need

1:06:00 to just move up the timeline and do that before the child gets abducted?

1:06:04 Why does he do that before all the people go to war?

1:06:06 Why does he do that?

1:06:07 And if he, if he, his plan is to overwhelm our free will at the end of our lives, then

1:06:12 why doesn't he just move that up?

1:06:13 And if he doesn't move that up, if he doesn't, uh, overwhelm our free will before we do something

1:06:17 evil in this world, that is truly evil.

1:06:22 If he's planning on overwhelming our free will at the end and he doesn't overwhelm free

1:06:26 will now, but allows us and forces us to be in this world of pain because our choices

1:06:30 don't matter, then that's actually the more evil thing.

1:06:34 So the existence of hell and the fact that we can choose it is the only thing that preserves

1:06:39 God's goodness.

1:06:40 All right.

1:06:41 You went a little over on time on that one, but I will allow it because you answered my

1:06:44 next question, which was going to be, I cannot believe in a loving God when there's so much

1:06:48 pain and suffering in the world.

1:06:49 So the problem of evil.

1:06:50 So I appreciate that.

1:06:51 Just a couple of more here.

1:06:53 What would you say to someone that said Catholicism is long on tradition, but short on theology?

1:06:59 Oh, wow.

1:07:00 Um, I would ask them if they've never read any Catholic theology, um, because it goes

1:07:06 back 2000 years and it continues to develop and it continues to have people who, um, dive

1:07:11 deeply into that.

1:07:12 So I, you know, I would say this, I would say that there are some theologians who are

1:07:16 pretty shallow.

1:07:17 Um, and I would say that there are some of us Catholics who, uh, might appeal more to

1:07:21 tradition than to, uh, theology or to the Lord, but, um, I would say as a, as a church,

1:07:28 or as a theological system, um, it, uh, it would be an interesting claim.

1:07:34 I would have to ask for like, show me what you're talking about.

1:07:38 Okay.

1:07:39 Fair enough.

1:07:40 Well, this is the last question of the day.

1:07:41 And perhaps the most important question that you could be asked.

1:07:45 What would you say to someone that said, Father Mike Schmitz is a YouTube star?

1:07:50 Um, I would say, what's your definition of star?

1:07:54 Well, hey, I've heard someone else call you a YouTube star.

1:07:58 So this is all you man.

1:08:00 My, my uncle, uh, once he's also my godfather, he said, uh, he said, you know, it's, what

1:08:05 did he say?

1:08:06 Something like, uh, it's easy to be, uh, a rock star where everyone else is Lawrence

1:08:10 Wolk.

1:08:11 Okay.

1:08:12 And I said, I said, okay, I got you, that kind of insults all my brother, priest, but

1:08:16 I give what you're saying.

1:08:17 I know I would say that like, I compared to what?

1:08:20 Yeah.

1:08:21 So I don't know.

1:08:22 We have talked about a lot of different subjects that they recovered a lot of ground, but that's

1:08:25 all for me.

1:08:26 Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?

1:08:28 I'm just grateful for the, the conversation.

1:08:31 Father Mike Schmitz, thanks for coming on Daunted Life, a man's podcast, thanks God.

1:08:39 There you go guys.

1:08:40 I really hope that you enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed recording it.

1:08:43 But before we let you guys go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.

1:08:46 As you know, by now, we are immense ministry and our mission is cultivating mainly resilience.

1:08:50 Specifically, we do that by providing you guys content like this podcast that helps you forge

1:08:54 spiritual, mental and physical toughness.

1:08:56 So for today, I'm going to go through the links that I'm going to provide for you that

1:08:59 podcast episode that turned me on to Father Mike Schmitz from the beginning.

1:09:02 I've got that available for you.

1:09:03 I've got just a link in iTunes link to the UMD Newman Catholic Campus Ministry podcast.

1:09:08 And he also has another podcast called the Father Mike Schmitz Catholic podcast.

1:09:12 Yeah.

1:09:13 I got a link to his website where you can kind of check him out, the UMD Newman about Father

1:09:16 Mike Schmitz.

1:09:17 So you can kind of look at his bio and other things there.

1:09:19 I've got a link to his Amazon because he does have some book studies contributed to a link

1:09:23 to his Twitter.

1:09:24 And then I've got three different videos that you can check out.

1:09:26 Two are these sermons that he did or these speeches that he did at these conferences.

1:09:30 And one is a video called off stage.

1:09:32 And this is just a guy that's just kind of like kind of doing a day in the life of Father

1:09:36 Mike Schmitz kind of a thing.

1:09:37 So I thought that that was interesting.

1:09:39 Thank you guys very much for listening to the podcast.

1:09:40 We really do appreciate it.

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1:10:00 I'm currently booking speaking engagements for the remainder of 2020 and into the beginning

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1:10:20 Check out our free devotionals on the U version Bible app just search Undaunted Life under

1:10:24 plans.

1:10:25 And as always, we want to thank the band August Burns read for allowing us to use their entire

1:10:28 music library for our content.

1:10:30 The intro outro track on this podcast is our song Defender, which is off their latest record

1:10:34 entitled Guardians.

1:10:35 The links are in the description.

1:10:37 I'm your host Kyle Thompson.

1:10:39 Remember, keep cultivating manly resilience, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical

1:10:45 toughness, keep seeking the Lion of Judah.

1:11:09 [Music]