124 - HARDELL MOORE | Every Kid Should Wrestle

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0:59 This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.

1:13 I'm your host Kyle Thompson.

1:14 Let's get into it.

1:15 Our guys today, we got a special guest on the podcast.

1:18 His name is Hardell Moore.

1:19 So that guy is one of my favorite people on the planet earth.

1:23 He's actually my neighbor, but that's not the reason why I'm talking to him.

1:25 I know I've told people before that I'm not just going to interview random people on the podcast.

1:29 Like, here's my barber.

1:30 Here's my neighbor.

1:31 Here's my lawn guy.

1:32 But this guy is an exceptional human being.

1:35 He wrestled for Oklahoma State.

1:36 So that is the preeminent wrestling program in the history of collegiate wrestling.

1:40 He wrestled there in the mid to late 90s.

1:42 He is a two time all American.

1:44 But the thing about this guy is he did an amazing career while he was in college, right?

1:49 He was a national runner up in 1998.

1:52 We certainly get into that in the interview.

1:53 But he's spent the last 20 plus years coaching and here's the deals.

1:58 Anytime you're a national level, like a national title level wrestler or level anything football

2:03 player, baseball player, squash player, whatever the situation might be.

2:06 It's not always a easy transition into coaching.

2:09 Some of the best people ever at their sport are I, they're just horrific at coaching,

2:14 right?

2:14 So there are some baseball players that came to mind.

2:16 Like Ted Williams tried his hand at kind of being a hitting coach.

2:19 But the thing with Ted Williams is his eyes were just different.

2:22 There was just something different about that guy.

2:24 So he couldn't just teach people how to do the things that he was able to do because they just

2:28 didn't have the skills that he had.

2:30 But the thing about Hardell Moore is he's been able to transition.

2:33 And the transition, I won't say it was easy, but we also get into that here in the interview.

2:37 But he's been the last 20 years turning this small kind of Oklahoma club into the OWA,

2:44 Oklahoma Wrestling Academy.

2:46 And this is one of the best year round wrestling clubs in the entire nation.

2:50 And he's basically the main force behind that.

2:53 There's a lot of great people that have their hand in OWA and the things that they do there.

2:57 But this is just a super interesting guy, married with two kids.

3:00 In this podcast, we talk about everything.

3:02 We talk about his early years of wrestling, his two state titles.

3:05 We talk about why he went to Oklahoma State.

3:07 You know, what it was like at Oklahoma State, what it was like, you know, wrestling for John

3:10 Smith, what it was like having some of the teammates that he had, his relationship with some,

3:14 you know, special teammates, which will get into some of those, some OSU alumni.

3:19 But we also get into, you know, what was it like transitioning from being a coach,

3:23 or being a wrestler into a coach?

3:25 And what's it like dealing with parents nowadays versus back in the day?

3:28 What's it like dealing with kids nowadays versus back in the day?

3:31 We talked about parenting advice.

3:32 We talked, we talked about so many different things.

3:35 I really, really enjoyed this interview.

3:36 So without further ado, let's get into it.

3:39 Hard L Moore, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.

3:43 Thanks, Kyle.

3:43 Thanks for having me, man.

3:44 Absolutely.

3:45 We've been trying to get this going for a little bit, so I'm glad we finally got it scheduled up.

3:49 But we're going to talk about a lot of stuff today.

3:51 We're going to cover a lot of ground.

3:52 But just to kind of go into it, obviously, you are known for wrestling,

3:55 whether it's wrestling as a competitor or as a coach, you are known for wrestling.

3:59 But if you could kind of even take us back to the very beginning.

4:02 So when you're growing up, what was it about wrestling that was attractive to you?

4:07 Like were there other sports that you played?

4:08 Like, how did you even get into wrestling?

4:10 Well, that's a great question.

4:12 So my story is probably a little bit different on how I got into it.

4:15 My dad never wrestled today in his life.

4:17 He was a basketball player.

4:18 I have two older brothers, Harvey Morn Howardmore.

4:21 I'm the baby of the family.

4:23 So we moved from Little Lacks to Kuwait, Oklahoma.

4:26 And there was a flyer that was sent out to Howard School.

4:28 I was four years old at the time.

4:29 He brought the flyer back to my dad.

4:32 And my dad always told me that if he said that he had boys when he was younger,

4:36 that he was going to get them into wrestling.

4:38 And sure enough, he had three of them.

4:40 Two of us wanted to wrestle.

4:42 Well, Howard came home with the flyer, gave it to my dad.

4:44 We went to go sign up.

4:46 I didn't sign up at the time, just Howard.

4:48 I was only four.

4:48 So during the wrestling practice, I would run around with them.

4:52 While they were warming up and I'd go through stretching.

4:55 Well, Howard start going to tournaments.

4:58 And at this point in the time, some of these tournaments were basically like lock-ins,

5:02 where the wrestlers would spin the night and sleep for the wrestling man.

5:06 Well, as a four-year-old kid, that was pretty dad gone cool.

5:08 Right, yeah.

5:09 So there was a two-day tournament we went to, I don't remember where it was at.

5:12 We go to the tournament, Howard finished his wrestling for the first day.

5:15 We're leaving and I asked my mom and dad, where's Howard at?

5:17 And they were like, well, baby, he gets to stay the night in the wrestling gym.

5:20 Well, I want to wrestle.

5:22 I want to stay the night in the wrestling gym.

5:24 One thing led to another, coach at that time, Ron McGill, next week or two weeks after that,

5:29 he's like, "Arnest, you want her to do the wrestle?"

5:31 And that's how I got into it.

5:33 And it's pretty much history after that.

5:36 Okay, so did you wrestle, is that all you did was wrestling?

5:40 Did you do other sports at the time?

5:42 At that time, no.

5:43 So I mean, at that time, that's all I did.

5:44 I started wrestling, played a little bit of baseball.

5:47 And then when I was in sixth grade, it was my first year to play tackle football.

5:53 Okay.

5:54 So wrestling and football became my sports.

5:58 I stopped playing baseball when they started throwing a curve ball.

6:00 That was not my--

6:01 It gets quite a bit harder than it had a little bit tougher there.

6:03 So I stuck with wrestling and football.

6:06 I knew wrestling was going to be my ticket to college to get a great education and wrestling

6:09 on the highest level possible.

6:11 I got a few letters from some smaller colleges in football.

6:15 But once again, like I said, I knew wrestling was going to be my bread and butter.

6:18 Howard, my middle brother, was a four-time All-American and a two-time national champ

6:22 at University of Central Oklahoma.

6:25 So growing up in Kuwait and watching him do what he was doing in Kuwait

6:30 and then watching what he was doing on the college level.

6:33 And that's what I decided I wanted to do.

6:35 Probably when I was about-- probably a sophomore, right?

6:39 I didn't go to state my freshman year.

6:40 I got beat out at regionals.

6:42 I made it to state as a sophomore, got second.

6:45 And then my junior and senior year, I ended up winning the state title.

6:49 But I started getting my name out nationally after my sophomore year in high school.

6:54 So would it have been your sophomore year where you really kind of felt like,

6:58 okay, now's the time where I know this is kind of my meal ticket to college?

7:01 Like was it around that time? Did you know from the moment you got on the mat

7:04 the first time that you were going to kind of give us an idea when you figured all that out?

7:08 No, you know, and that's one of the things.

7:09 You know, I coach a lot of youth kids and I tell these parents,

7:12 there's no college coaches coming to recruit your child right now.

7:15 Like, it means a hill of beans to them.

7:17 Sure.

7:18 You know, let's focus on attitude and effort.

7:20 But when I became a sophomore, I had a good season.

7:24 Didn't finish the way I wanted, but had a good season.

7:28 And then I started doing freestyle.

7:30 And I did freestyle before, but then I started traveling more national tournaments, right?

7:34 And kind of getting my name out and becoming more nationally known instead of locally,

7:40 you know, known and kind of got my name on the radar after sophomore year.

7:44 And then definitely after junior year, my sophomore summer, I won cadet nationals.

7:49 So that helped me.

7:50 I come back my junior year, win state.

7:52 I finished runner up at junior nationals.

7:55 So that helped me.

7:56 So now my name is kind of getting out there more nationally, right?

7:59 So did you feel like as you were performing better and as you were doing well,

8:04 and as your name was getting out there, do you feel like that increased the pressure on you?

8:07 Like did the coaching, the level of coaching change around you?

8:11 Because sometimes with certain wrestling programs,

8:12 the coaches know like Henry Sehuto comes to mind where like a lot of the teams that he was on,

8:16 it was all about Henry.

8:17 No matter what, they didn't really care about anybody else.

8:19 It was all about Henry Sehuto.

8:21 And some people think that's good.

8:22 Some people think that's bad.

8:23 Did anything change for you as you were kind of coming up that way?

8:26 No, you know, there was no special treatment, right?

8:28 And the way I kind of looked at it is I wanted to be a leader, not a follower,

8:31 regardless of what my record was, regardless of if I won that weekend or lost that weekend,

8:36 right? We are a team, you know?

8:38 And it's totally different in an MMA sense, right?

8:40 Because those guys don't get me wrong.

8:41 They are putting their life on the line and they are specializing in that.

8:45 As wrestling and especially on the college level, or let me take that back.

8:51 High school level, it's not as individualized.

8:54 When you get to college and they have, you know, three, four, five coaches, maybe,

8:58 it kind of becomes more individualized.

9:00 Like you may have a one-on-one with the assistant coach in the morning, right?

9:04 Or you may have an extra one-on-one with the head coach that afternoon.

9:08 But still, it's still a team aspect, right?

9:11 So no one's treated differently.

9:13 You're all treated the same.

9:14 And sometimes the, your better wrestler or athlete may be treated the toughest because

9:19 coach wants to know, hey, this dude is a top dog.

9:22 Right.

9:22 He's got to do everything right just like, you know, someone that's either a backup or

9:26 not starting or whatever the case may be.

9:28 They got to do that.

9:29 I'm holding you to the same level as this guy.

9:32 If I get on him, you better believe I'm going to get on you too, regardless of where you're at.

9:36 So, I mean, you didn't get any special treatment.

9:39 You win state.

9:39 You're junior and senior year.

9:41 When did OSU start coming on the map?

9:44 So for those of you that aren't very familiar with the sport of wrestling,

9:47 I know there's a lot of guys that listen to this internationally as well.

9:50 Oklahoma State is the preeminent wrestling school in the country.

9:54 Now lately, it's been Penn State because they've won, what, seven of eight or eight of nine.

9:57 Like they're absolutely stellar right now.

10:00 But what is it, 34 national championships for Oklahoma State wrestling?

10:03 I mean, for you, why Oklahoma State?

10:06 Because it doesn't just mean, hey, I'm an okey.

10:08 So I'm going to go to Oklahoma State.

10:09 When did they kind of come on the radar?

10:11 What did John Smith come to one of your duels?

10:13 Kind of how did all that come to be?

10:14 Well, it kind of came about when they recruited my brother, right?

10:18 Coach Smith and Kenny Munday came to the house.

10:20 Both Olympic champions came to the house and I'm sitting there like, man,

10:25 this is pretty daggone cool.

10:26 I didn't think I would end up at OSU.

10:29 Just like any younger brother, you see your older brother wrestling at a college

10:33 and automatically you're thinking, I want to follow in his footsteps.

10:36 I want to wrestle at UCO.

10:37 OSU, we used to go watch him when I was little.

10:41 Probably didn't become a goal until probably I was around my junior year, right?

10:48 When I would see Coach and then I start wrestling his brother, Mark Smith, a lot, right?

10:52 So now my name's getting known through that family.

10:55 So that's probably when that OSU started coming in and thinking,

11:00 you know what, this could be possible that I could wrestle right here in my backyard

11:03 to one of the most storied program, if not the most storied program around,

11:07 34 national titles, you know, and we're continuing to get better.

11:11 And like you said, Penn State's been the top dog for a while.

11:14 You know, I was in there right now.

11:16 So it was a O-State's the mecca, man.

11:20 It was just it was an honor and a blessing to wrestle for that university and Coach Smith.

11:24 Were there any other universities that you were considering at the time?

11:27 Like, because for those of you, also that don't pay attention here,

11:30 Ryan Edmond, where we're recording this is University of Central Oklahoma.

11:33 And they are one of the most decorated wrestling programs

11:37 you know, regardless of division, this is a division to school.

11:40 It was an NAI school back in the day, but an unbelievable amount of national championships.

11:45 Off the top of my head, I think it's 16 or 17 national championships as a team.

11:48 And they've got a lot of Americans, a lot of national championship winners.

11:52 I mean, we're really in the backyard of wrestling country here.

11:55 But outside of UCO or OSU, were there any other schools that were looking at you that were interested?

12:00 Yeah, it was Iowa State, Oklahoma State, and OU.

12:04 Okay, were my top three at that point in the time, and I took a recruiting trip to Iowa State

12:08 with some good buddies from the state of Oklahoma.

12:12 I took my trip down to Norman to OU as well with some other good buddies.

12:15 And I took my trip to Oklahoma State once again with some other good buddies.

12:19 And you know, it came down to a feel for me.

12:23 You know, my dad really wanted my middle brother to go to OSU.

12:26 But that's not where he wanted to go.

12:27 And then when it came my turn, like, you know, I kept my options open.

12:32 I took my recruiting trips, and it just came down to OSU was it.

12:36 Man, I had a perfect fit.

12:37 I went to go watch a practice.

12:39 It got a little heated in there, a little fisticuffs going.

12:43 And I just was like, you know what, I want to be a part of this.

12:45 I want to be a part of this tradition here at this school.

12:48 So you arrived on campus.

12:50 Your first year was 1995, correct?

12:53 '93, red shirt, red shirted in '93.

12:56 Pat Smith was getting ready to become the first four-time national champion.

13:00 So needless to say, I took a lot of butt-wuppens my freshman year from Pat Smith, Mark Branch,

13:07 Allen Free, JJ McGrew, and even Coach Smith and Coach Perry.

13:10 So it was a learning lesson.

13:13 I mean, I already had humility, but it taught me humility on a different level

13:19 because wrestling's hard.

13:22 And on that level, when you're wrestling that type of talent on a consistent basis,

13:29 you have no other choice but to get better.

13:31 Right.

13:32 And if you do not get better, it's your own fault.

13:35 So you got to take advantage of that.

13:36 And even if you're getting your tail kicked for two hours during that practice,

13:41 it's going to make you a better person, better man, better wrestler.

13:43 Well, so I want you to talk about that a little bit because most adults,

13:48 I mean, you got a lot of adult males listening to this podcast right now.

13:51 Most adults don't have anything that's even similar to that,

13:54 where they've got that thing that's so hard, that's that constant butt kicking,

13:57 but there's kind of two different ways to look at that.

14:00 So you were, you know, Mr. Everything, two-time state champion in high school,

14:04 and then you go to Oklahoma State and you're just another guy in the room, right?

14:07 But then there's the other side of it, which is,

14:09 can you beat up the guy that you were six months ago?

14:14 Because I remember telling that story and the guys on the podcast will recognize that,

14:17 but I was kind of getting frustrated with Jiu Jitsu, you know, another grappling sport.

14:20 And, you know, I felt like I was stagnating and I wasn't really getting any better

14:23 against the same guys, you know, who are also getting better at the school,

14:26 but you know, they're five, six, ten years ahead of me.

14:28 And finally, one of my coaches was like, Kyle, what would you do to you from six months ago?

14:33 It's like, oh, I would smoke that guy, and I didn't know where he was going with that,

14:36 but he's just like, dude, that's the whole point.

14:39 Shut up, just deal with it.

14:40 So kind of talk through what that was like going from being the man

14:43 to just being another guy in the room.

14:44 You know, it was, I'm not going to sit here and lie at, it was tough, my first practice.

14:50 So prime example, my first practice, I go in and wrestle John Smith.

14:53 And for some of your audience that may know or may not know who this guy is,

14:56 he's the most decorated American wrestler we have.

14:59 Flat out point blank.

15:01 I wrestled with him and Pat Smith for two hours.

15:06 I didn't score any points.

15:08 Only points I scored were escapes.

15:10 They let me go.

15:11 Right.

15:11 He said, cut you.

15:12 Cut me.

15:13 After that, I had to go to the workout room and coach Perry put me through a tremendous workout.

15:18 It was, it was, it was, it was miserable.

15:20 I called my mom that day when I got back to my dorm and I really told, I was like,

15:24 I don't know if I belong here.

15:25 I don't know if I belong here.

15:27 And she told me to suck it up, which I did.

15:29 But it was humbly, right?

15:32 Because I wasn't used to that.

15:33 But just like we teach our kids now, you get bucked off, you get your tail back on that horse

15:38 and you keep right.

15:39 And that's what I did.

15:40 And I realized that I, I was getting better.

15:42 And I tell the kids now, when they wrestling college for three, two, three, four months,

15:48 depending, or some of them come home on Christmas break, it slows down.

15:52 Because now they'll come in and wrestle a high school kid and they're, they're like,

15:56 it's almost like I can't believe I was that bad almost because you get better.

16:01 You get better really without realizing just like you just talked about that, you're getting

16:06 better because you're still getting beat up on, but you got to remember who you're competing

16:12 against in a regular day to day basis.

16:14 Right.

16:14 And when I had the chance to go to open tournaments and wrestle other people besides my teammates,

16:20 and all those guys, I just named off all one national titles.

16:23 And I'm just a little old dude from Kuwait, Oklahoma.

16:26 And I realized, you know what, I'm getting better.

16:28 And that's the marathon part that I talk about to my parents and kids.

16:32 It's a marathon, not a sprint.

16:34 It's a long journey.

16:36 So when, when do you feel like you went from being, you know, the whipping boy in the room,

16:41 getting beat up, not only by the, the other wrestlers, but the coaches, when do you feel

16:45 like you started to turn the corner?

16:47 It was probably for me at the four month period, no, no joke.

16:52 I actually scored a take now.

16:54 I scored, I scored points on Pat legit take, legit take down and Pat would always like

16:59 to wrestle me because I wrestled him, right?

17:02 I showed him, I didn't show him respect while we wrestled.

17:05 You didn't wrestle like you were scared.

17:06 Like, oh, this is some dude, like it's like, I'm, I'm coming for you.

17:09 If you kick my tail this day, guess what, you kick my tail, I'm coming back tomorrow.

17:12 Right.

17:13 You kick my tail that day, I'm coming back tomorrow.

17:16 And you know, I didn't have a choice because either Pat would kick my tail, Allen Fried

17:20 would kick my tail, JJ McGrew, Mark Branch, you know, you name it, they were there and

17:24 they were all around my weight.

17:26 So I had to buck up, right?

17:28 I had to buck up and become a man and put my bootstraps on and go wrestle and compete

17:31 with these guys because they're teaching you something at that moment in time.

17:35 It may not feel like it, but they're teaching you something.

17:37 And you know, it's life.

17:39 You're going to get knocked down.

17:40 Get up, you know, go forward, you know, like Denzel Washington says, fall forward.

17:44 That's what you want to do, fall forward.

17:47 And so you obviously seem to have gotten kind of that calloused mindset early in your first

17:52 year because it's like you're, you're just taking medicine every day, but you're taking

17:55 your medicine, right?

17:56 And you're coming back the next day.

17:58 Where's my medicine?

17:59 Let's keep getting that medicine.

18:00 But when you, when you talk about the room and for those of you that have never experienced

18:04 a wrestling room, it's a different animal.

18:07 It's not a football locker room.

18:08 It's not a baseball dugout.

18:10 It's just a different animal in the room.

18:12 So if you can go back to those days, early days or later on in your time in Oklahoma

18:16 State, was there a teammate that you felt was especially helpful for you, whether they,

18:21 you know, took you under their wing and or just competing with them day in, day out, made

18:25 you better?

18:26 Was there a teammate that maybe you never got the jump on?

18:29 I mean, let's just stay in the room.

18:30 Like, what was the room like for Hard Elmore?

18:33 The room was a battle ground every day.

18:40 That's what that room was.

18:43 Whether it was with like all the guys I've named, you know, I'd probably say branch.

18:47 Mark Branch would be the guy.

18:48 And the reason why he was a sophomore while I was a freshman.

18:51 So we were only a year apart, Pat and Allen and JJ were all seniors when I was a freshman.

18:57 They were all seniors when I was a freshman.

18:59 So me and Branch became great friends, not that I wasn't great friends with those other

19:03 guys, but you know, me and Branch traveled a lot more together.

19:07 We drilled a lot more together than those guys.

19:10 And I mean, I was 158.

19:13 He was 167.

19:14 So it kind of, you know, it went hand in hand.

19:17 And he would probably be the guy that helped me out the most, especially on Matt wrestling.

19:23 Branch is six foot two, six foot three and wrestled 167 pounds.

19:28 So he was all legs and all arms and he was considered one of the best leg riders ever

19:33 and the dude could ride legs and it helped me out learning how to get off bottom.

19:36 And a lot of that becomes, you know, up top, you know, between your ears a middle game.

19:41 And you know, we had some battles in that wrestling room and it paid off for both of

19:45 us paid off for both of us.

19:47 So for you, I guess everything rotates.

19:50 You have the upperclassmen that eventually they leave the program or something like that.

19:54 And you know, you always hear about guys coming back to the room, you know, afterwards,

19:57 especially if they're going on to the Olympics or something like that, they'll keep coming

19:59 back to the room.

20:00 But what was it like for you when you eventually kind of took, took their place, right?

20:05 You were a junior senior, you know, you're an all American now, you're that, you're that

20:08 guy.

20:09 What was it like when you saw the, the new Hardell Moore, like that other kid that kind

20:13 of came in that was just wide eyed, maybe from a small town?

20:15 Like what was that like kind of changing shifts or shifting where you were?

20:19 Well, you pay it forward.

20:20 Yeah.

20:21 Right.

20:22 And that's, that's kind of, that's your job, right.

20:24 Nobody needs to tell you that.

20:26 Nobody told Pat or Mark or none of them do to help me out.

20:29 They wanted to help me out because in turn, it helps the program out, right.

20:32 And you pay it forward.

20:33 So when I became a sophomore and junior and definitely senior year, you know, you'd have,

20:39 you know, Jamil Kelly Olympic silver medalist that came in from last in junior college,

20:42 right?

20:43 Guy never, never all American never was a high school state place, but becomes an Olympic

20:48 silver medalist.

20:49 You know, he kind of became my little brother on the squad, right?

20:52 Mark Munoz.

20:53 Okay.

20:54 I mean, it made people know who Mark Munoz is coming from, but Lejo, California, he

20:57 didn't start wrestling until he was a freshman.

20:59 That's ridiculous.

21:00 That's so crazy.

21:01 Right.

21:02 And becomes a national champion.

21:03 So when he came in, I kind of took him under my wing, right?

21:05 And just kind of teaching him how to cut weight, get your proper rest, what's your diet, it's

21:09 like so on and so forth and just how to be ready to compete.

21:13 And that's kind of, that's the same thing that those guys did for me.

21:16 Same thing I did for them.

21:18 Same thing.

21:19 These guys are doing now.

21:20 I mean, Munoz and Jamil did the same thing to the younger guys coming in.

21:23 And it's just an ongoing process.

21:25 And that's one thing I love about our old state wrestling family.

21:29 You know, we are family.

21:30 We got a lot of guys coaching many different places, but somewhere down the line, everybody

21:34 has helped another person out.

21:37 Kind of walk me through a little bit of the examples and you don't have to name names

21:42 and we're not here to flame anybody, but the people that you saw that didn't respond

21:46 well to the medicine, to the, maybe they, they came in as a hot shot and there was nothing

21:50 John could tell them, nothing in upperclassmen could tell them they already knew they were

21:54 the guy, they didn't need your help.

21:57 Because the thing with a lot of those guys, eventually they do flame out.

21:59 And also the room might reject a guy.

22:01 And the last thing that you want to have happen in a wrestling room is to be the rejected

22:05 wrestler, right?

22:06 Because these are the guys that you're, you're the iron that's helping, you know, someone

22:10 else sharpen their iron against throughout, throughout a season and throughout like a

22:14 training camp at once you move on to MMA or, or the Olympic trials or something like that.

22:18 But did you see some of that, some guys that came in the room and maybe they just, they

22:22 couldn't hack it.

22:23 They were two, three time state champions in high school, came to the room and flamed

22:26 out, kind of walk us through something like that.

22:27 Well, you, you see that, you know, you see that consistently, especially in, in, in college

22:32 wrestling.

22:33 And once again, I don't care what level it is D one D two doesn't matter.

22:37 Some of these guys are not used to getting their butt work on a consistent basis.

22:42 And it's all about how do you handle that?

22:44 How do you battle back from that?

22:46 What do I do?

22:47 What's my next step?

22:48 Do I cower down and go home or do I man up and get back into the room?

22:53 And some of them just didn't have, you know, an odd to respect the mental toughness to

22:56 do it.

22:57 It's hard.

22:58 I mean, it is hard.

22:59 And, you know, coaches don't feel any pity for you.

23:02 They may love you, but they're not going to feel any pity for you.

23:04 You know, you're here on a scholarship, you are a student athlete here, right?

23:08 We brought you here for a reason.

23:11 And that reason is to get your great education and help this team when, when, when titles

23:15 and matches and duels and, and titles and things for yourself.

23:20 So some of them, you have some of them wasn't coachable.

23:23 They weren't coachable.

23:24 Right?

23:25 Didn't have an open mind coming in, didn't want another willing to learn and just figured

23:29 this is the way I've done it.

23:30 I've been successful this way for so long.

23:32 Why change anything?

23:34 You know, and when you get to that next level, you've got to change something, right?

23:39 You have to adapt, you know, a little where you got to be a chameleon.

23:42 You got to be able to adapt to things.

23:43 You got to be able to change.

23:44 You got to be able to adjust on the fly.

23:46 You got to be able to make adjustments.

23:48 You got to be able to more importantly listen to the coaches that are telling you stuff because

23:52 they've done it.

23:54 They lived it.

23:55 They know what they're talking about.

23:56 But if you shut them out and just think you're going to do it your way, it's eventually going

24:01 to come up and bite you.

24:02 Well, I definitely appreciate your perspective on that.

24:04 The thing that I want to kind of get into now is obviously when you go to Oklahoma State,

24:08 there are expectations like, you know, the expectation is not just that you're going

24:12 to be be a nice guy and, you know, just get good grades, even though that is super important

24:16 for a student athlete.

24:17 It's obviously that you want to be an all American.

24:19 You want to help the team win a national title, those types of things.

24:22 That's why someone goes to Oklahoma State.

24:23 So kind of walk us through that transition for you from, you know, again, coming from

24:27 a high school, going to college, but now as a junior and senior, you're looking to become

24:31 an all American.

24:32 You're looking to become an a national champion.

24:34 What was that transition like?

24:35 Well, you know, for me, it was, um, it was tough.

24:39 You know, my freshman year, I go in, um, I'm not seated.

24:44 I have the number five guy in what we had, what a pigtail, the first round.

24:49 I beat the number five guy, I turn around, I win my next match, um, and then I, I lost

24:56 my match after that and won two more on the backside and came up short, not all American.

25:01 Sophomore year looking into man, I'm ready to go win a title.

25:04 Um, I definitely want to go win a title.

25:06 If I can't get my title, I got to be on the podium, um, had a good season, battled all

25:11 the way through the guy that beat me in the blood round.

25:15 I beat earlier in the year, right?

25:18 That's where the humility comes in with mostly, um, every match is different.

25:23 And I didn't wrestle a good match, kudos to him.

25:26 He all American died.

25:28 So going into my junior year, I think preseason, I was ranked two behind now take that back.

25:35 I was four behind, there were some studs up there.

25:39 Joe Williams, um, was one, Ernest Binyon was another one, um, Mac Hughes was ranked either

25:45 in front of me or behind me at that time.

25:48 Um, and it was in, uh, Northern Iowa, the UNI dome, all mats on the football field closed

25:54 dome.

25:55 Um, win my first two matches, um, get to the quarter final round.

26:00 Now I've gotten to the quarter final round before, but I've never won that.

26:04 Once you win the quarter final round, you get into the semis and you're automatically

26:07 an all American.

26:08 If you're losing the quarter final round, you go to the backside and still have to win

26:12 some matches.

26:13 So this was a big hump for me and I was four seed, Matt Hughes was five seed and never

26:20 wrestled him.

26:21 And this is the Matt Hughes guys for any of you in the make fans.

26:24 It's that horse neck to Matt Hughes.

26:26 Yeah, it's that Matt Hughes.

26:27 And you know, on one of the, the, the commentaries I heard Joe Rogan say something about Matt Hughes

26:32 is possibly the strongest individual and MMA pound for pound.

26:38 That is the truth.

26:39 That dude was freakishly strong, athletic is all get out.

26:44 He rode me for over a minute.

26:46 I end up taking him down.

26:47 I end up winning by one point, but it was a, it was a dog fight.

26:51 He ended up all American in as well.

26:53 Um, I got beaten the semis by Joe Williams, um, and I end up getting fourth.

26:57 I gotta be by Ernest Benion from third and fourth.

26:59 So that was my junior year.

27:02 Pre-season.

27:03 I'm, I was two, T mortari from Nebraska was one, Byron Tucker from OU was three.

27:10 So it was just that whole senior season I lost once or twice ended up being three times

27:18 cause I lost in the national finals.

27:19 So you know, at that point in time when you're competing, you're not, you don't really get

27:24 enough time to sit down and kind of reflect on what you've done.

27:28 You know, granted it's not like it's a NBA career or NFL career that you played for.

27:32 For 13, 14 years, you know, you have that short span of four or five years in college.

27:38 And it took me a while to reflect and really understand what I did accomplish and how many

27:44 people have tried to get to that point, but I've never succeeded.

27:47 So, you know, I boycotted NCAA's for about four years, um, I, I didn't want anything

27:53 to do with it.

27:54 I had my little league stuff going, but my mom and dad still went to the national tournament

27:58 and then one year one of my other buddies was going and I was like, you know what, I need

28:01 to start getting back in and there you have it.

28:03 So, but looking back on it, man, I accomplished a lot.

28:06 I'm extremely proud of what I've done, um, you know, and, and like you said, when you

28:10 go to Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, you know, it's a different level.

28:14 You're expected to win.

28:16 And that's that.

28:17 I mean, especially in the wrestling world, you are expected to win and there's nothing

28:21 wrong with that.

28:22 You want that.

28:23 You need to have that.

28:24 And that's, you know, that's where wrestling from such a young age to getting to that point

28:29 builds you up for that and especially when you get to these colleges like, yeah, you're

28:33 still having fun, but you want to win.

28:37 And that's the different mindset that I tell my young ones now, you know, right now, you

28:40 just go wrestle.

28:41 This doesn't mean anything.

28:42 Nobody's coming to recruit you.

28:44 You get to high school.

28:45 It becomes a little bit more serious.

28:46 Sure.

28:47 Yeah.

28:48 You get to college.

28:49 It's a different ball game.

28:50 You're wrestling men and they're there to rip your head off if you're not ready for it.

28:53 Well, I want to talk a little bit more about your senior year and about coming in as a

28:58 runner up in the national title or for the national title.

29:02 So one thing that I've noticed in watching the national tournament is, well, I'll contrast

29:09 it with maybe, you know, the the natty for football or for March Madness or something

29:14 like that.

29:15 When you see a team come in second, right?

29:17 I mean, there's guys played out on the on the field crying, you know, they got a towel

29:22 over their hat on the bench and they're they're just they're overwhelmed with emotion.

29:27 And you know, they always the camera always finds them, right?

29:29 They find the guys celebrating.

29:30 They also find the guys that are covered in the wrong color confetti and have enough

29:34 complete meltdown on the field.

29:36 But when I watch the national titles, the national title duels are in the matches in

29:41 the tournament, when guys get second place, I don't see that they're they're obviously

29:46 visibly disappointed, but they shake the guy's hand as they do after every match and then

29:51 they walk off the mat and go back to the locker room and deal with it.

29:55 However, how are they decide to deal with it?

29:57 And so for a guy like you, yes, to say that you were an Oklahoma state wrestler, put you

30:01 in a rare fraternity of people and then to say that you're an all American on the collegiate

30:05 level, the division one collegiate level is something different.

30:08 But when you when you tell someone that you're a runner up, it's like they forget all the

30:12 rest of that.

30:13 And even it sounds like you you forgot a little bit of that as well because you had to take

30:16 some time away, kind of walk us through how you were able to process that even a little

30:21 bit more detail of you were just that close to what would I I assume was your goal all

30:26 along going to Oakland State, which was to bring a national title back at your weight

30:30 class.

30:31 Yeah, yeah, it's it's heartbreaking because you work so long for it.

30:36 You work so hard for it and you live the right way, right?

30:39 You're doing all the right things you put in the work, you put in the extra work without

30:44 anybody telling you to put in the extra work.

30:47 And you know, all you can do is put your best foot forward.

30:52 And you know, I control the controllables, right?

30:55 And it's it was my attitude and it was my effort.

30:57 And I gave great, I had a great attitude and I great effort and I wrestled my tail off.

31:03 I just came up short that day, right?

31:05 The better man won that match kudos to him.

31:08 And that's all you can do.

31:09 But you know, in wrestling, when I lost that match, I remember walking off the stage, off

31:17 the podium, going off into the tunnel and you know, I had tears flowing down my eyes.

31:22 My head is kind of down and I'm just I'm heart broke.

31:25 I'm dejected.

31:26 I feel horrible.

31:27 I feel like I let people down.

31:29 I think is one of the main things that was running through my head.

31:33 And don't get me wrong.

31:34 I shed many more tears in the back.

31:36 I kicked a few things in the back.

31:39 You know, I hugged my coaches and they allowed me to cry on their shoulder in the back.

31:44 And I was probably back there for about 15, 20 minutes, stood on the podium, got my award.

31:50 But it all kind of clicked for me when I got to go upstairs and see my mom and dad.

31:55 Son's going to come up the next day.

31:58 It's a wrestling match.

31:59 It's something I've worked my whole life for.

32:02 I came up short.

32:04 I got to keep moving, right?

32:06 I got to keep moving.

32:08 I was down.

32:09 I was out.

32:11 But I had to compose myself in the back before I went up and saw my mom and dad.

32:15 My brothers were there as well.

32:17 And you know, the Oklahoma State fans and friends and other family that I had up there.

32:23 And sometimes you just say, I'm sorry, right?

32:26 And they get it because it's tough.

32:28 It's monoling monoman.

32:30 And you know, I got beat that day.

32:32 And once again, humility, but pick yourself up, hold yourself accountable for the mistakes

32:37 you made during that match and realize, you know what, I'll get better from this.

32:42 It wasn't my time to win a national title.

32:44 I have to get better from this.

32:46 And I think that has helped me pour into the youth the way I have.

32:51 I still would have poured into them if I won a national title.

32:54 But that's part of my story.

32:56 That's part of my makeup.

32:57 That's who I am.

32:58 And I can tell these kids now how to prepare for a big match, how to control your emotions

33:04 during a big match.

33:06 But yeah, it's heartbreaking and I still remember it to this day.

33:11 I have not watched my national finals match.

33:15 Funny story.

33:16 We were at the Hall of Fame a couple of years back and I was at a meeting and I hear Maddox

33:21 was with me, my son, and he was out there and at the Hall of Fame, you can pull up any

33:24 wrestling match and you can find it.

33:27 Well, he figured out how to use the little computer system out there.

33:32 And I hear whistles blowing and stuff like that, I'm like, man, that's awfully loud.

33:35 I open the door and he's sitting there watching my NCAA finals match.

33:40 And I looked and I said, are you watching my match?

33:43 He goes, yeah.

33:44 And I just closed the door.

33:45 I turned the volume down and closed the door and went back to the meeting.

33:49 So you're going to have to tell me a little bit more about that because that's a little

33:52 bit surprising.

33:53 But you hear that.

33:54 You hear that from guys that are in any type of combat sports or really anything like,

33:57 oh, did you watch, you know, when you lost Super Bowl?

33:59 Did you watch when you lost the World Series in game seven?

34:01 So for you, like what, what makes that and especially, maybe not painful or maybe it

34:06 is painful?

34:07 Well, why can't you watch it?

34:08 Just bring back memories.

34:09 Right?

34:10 Yeah.

34:11 And it, I don't care who you are.

34:12 And some I give, I give kudos to the guys that can watch those matches and I've watched

34:16 matches that I've lost.

34:18 I'm not saying that, but that one, that was a tough, right?

34:23 That was the tough one.

34:24 And that was the tough because you thought you should have won like I should have remembered.

34:29 Getting wrestled to my potential and it's just still, it's still, it's, it's, it's a

34:32 part of my, my makeup.

34:34 Maybe someday I may watch it.

34:35 I say that there's no way.

34:36 I'm not watching it.

34:37 That's 20 plus years now.

34:38 I'm not watching that match.

34:39 You sure?

34:40 I mean, you could be another, give it another 20 years, 40 years from now, you're not going

34:44 to watch it.

34:45 No, I'm not going to watch it.

34:46 It's all, I got it all up here.

34:47 Okay.

34:48 You replayed it already.

34:49 I replayed it numerous times.

34:50 I replayed it when I went to bed that night.

34:53 I still think about it.

34:54 And even when people ask me, it still brings up and I replay it again.

34:57 So mentally, right?

35:00 I've watched it just not visually, I guess, if that makes sense.

35:04 I watch it every day.

35:05 I watch it every day.

35:06 And you know, that's what those, our competitors, we talk about like we forget all about the

35:11 great wins that we had.

35:12 Yeah, of course.

35:13 You remember your losses and that's in any competitive and that's what some people remember

35:18 too.

35:19 They forget about the great wins.

35:20 They remember some of the losses, you know, but it, it, it has made me who I am today.

35:26 Um, I, I, I have a feeling I would have been the same solid dude I am now, but it just,

35:34 it, it's life.

35:36 It's something that I wanted and work my tail off for, but I came up short and that's going

35:41 to happen.

35:42 I'm not the first.

35:43 I'm not the last.

35:44 I'm not the only one, you know?

35:46 So it's common ground with a lot of us that have became runner ups, you know, prime example,

35:51 you know, Derek White, you were over at my house last year watching the final tour, you

35:55 know, I've coached him since he was five years old.

35:57 He had the chance to wrestle in the NCAA finals.

35:59 You know, I wish you would have won first.

36:03 He's runner up just like his coach.

36:04 We have something common and nothing to hold her head down about, right?

36:07 Nothing to be ashamed of.

36:08 Right?

36:09 That's a huge accomplishment in the big picture, but you know, I'm just blessed that he got

36:14 him an education and got the chance to be on that stage.

36:17 So as we kind of start to put a little bit of a bow on your college career, when you look

36:21 back, and I might go back to that national title back here in a second, I might make

36:25 you watch it here and make it make everybody listen to your content.

36:28 Okay.

36:29 All right.

36:30 I'll think about it.

36:31 I'll think about it.

36:32 But were there any guys that you wrestled on a regular basis, like you just kept seeing

36:34 them in duels, you kept seeing them in tournaments that they just had your number and in the

36:39 same in the reverse, were there dudes that were absolute monster killers in their conference

36:43 or in that region and you just, they couldn't touch you?

36:49 Somebody that did have my number was Joe Williams from Iowa.

36:51 Joe was from Mount Carmel High School in Chicago, Illinois.

36:56 And long, lanky, athletic, smart, quick, fast, all the attributes was a, at that point in

37:02 time was a huge 158 pounder.

37:04 I thought I was a good size 158 pounder, but Joe made me look small.

37:10 We would always have dog fights, man.

37:11 It would be one, two point matches, overtime matches.

37:17 Probably the closest I got to beating Joe was at national duels in 90, I think it was

37:22 97, our junior year.

37:25 We go into ultimate ride out and I got the choice and I chose down and I think it was

37:29 two to two at the time or whatever the case may be and 30 seconds on the clock and I get

37:36 to my feet.

37:37 I get pushed out of bounds.

37:38 I come back down.

37:39 I get back set.

37:40 Whistle blows.

37:41 I explode up.

37:42 Joe dropped down to an ankle and I'm, I'm mule kicking.

37:44 I'm kicking away from him, trying to get away, trying to get away.

37:47 And I get away and I'm getting ready to turn around and right before I try to turn around

37:52 on my knees, man.

37:53 That dude reaches his own long arms out, grabs my legs, ends up riding me out and wins.

37:58 He beat me in the semifinals that year.

38:00 Even Joe beat me in high school.

38:01 One time we wrestled at, at junior duels and he beat me there.

38:04 So that was somebody I never could get over the hump with.

38:07 We got great respect for, for each other.

38:09 I haven't heard from him for a while, but solid dude.

38:11 And then someone that I used to wrestle all the time, Benlon, Byron Tucker.

38:17 Byron Tucker's from West Virginia.

38:19 We wrestled 11 times over our three year career, because I was a year in front of him.

38:26 I can proudly say that I won eight and he won three.

38:29 But we had battles and you know, back then, and they started again this year, Benlon was

38:35 twice a year.

38:36 It was earlier in the year and then later in the year.

38:39 Now our senior year, me and Byron wrestled in bedlam.

38:43 We also wrestled in the all-star match and then we also wrestled first round at big,

38:48 at big, yeah, big, big 12s.

38:51 So we wrestled four times in one year.

38:53 That's a lot.

38:54 That's a lot.

38:55 And every time we'd wrestle, I'd either be two or he'd be three or I'd be three or he'd

39:01 be four.

39:02 So we were always neck and neck.

39:03 So, you know, the first time we wrestled him, I go up five zero.

39:07 He's a true freshman.

39:08 This is in Gallagher.

39:09 Ivan, I'm like, oh man, I'm going to win this match, right?

39:12 That dude came back and beat me in overtime, right?

39:15 So you know, great, great dude, you know, funny story with that.

39:20 My mom and dad and brother, I say my mom and brothers, my dad like Byron.

39:25 My mom and dad, my mom and brothers really did care for him during that time we were

39:29 competing, right?

39:31 But once we got done, like Byron's a part of our family.

39:34 That is a good dude.

39:35 So I stay in contact with him as much as I can and but we had some, we had some battles.

39:41 Well, it's interesting to hear that because you hear people talk about that like and again,

39:44 this is kind of the extended combat world where you'll see guys that are right after

39:50 a duel.

39:51 You know, they're still friends, like they're competitors when they're on the mat, like

39:54 there's no, there's no niceties while they're out there.

39:57 But then as you expand beyond that, like when you go to war with somebody like that,

40:01 like in not an actual war overseas, don't at me guys.

40:05 But like when you go to war with somebody, you find out what they're about.

40:08 And they find out what you're about and that's just something a little bit different.

40:11 The level of respect that you get because wrestling is one of those sports that pushes

40:15 you to your limits just about every time you're doing it.

40:18 When the two competitors are equally matched, when they're evenly matched in some of these

40:21 super lopsided matches, you can tell people are kind of messing around like that's how

40:25 I kind of felt like Bo nickel was even in the national finals last year.

40:28 It's like the guy just didn't seem like he was trying real hard.

40:31 She obviously was, but it was just kind of hard to see there was such a huge gap between

40:36 him and everybody else he was going against.

40:37 But when people are really close, closely matched, you kind of get that close knit environment

40:42 there.

40:43 But one thing that you mentioned that I do want to talk about a little bit because I went

40:46 to my first one of these not that long ago is bedlam because where, you know, everyone

40:50 talks about bedlam, they think college football.

40:52 But the reason why we call it bedlam is because originally there was a guy that walked into

40:56 an OU versus OSU dual and said, man, it's like bedlam in here because it was just crazy.

41:01 The level of energy and the level excitement.

41:03 And I've just never experienced one.

41:04 And so another friend of ours, Sam Hayeswinkle, who's a who's an Olympian and a great Greco

41:09 wrestler and former and freestyle and former OU wrestler and coach.

41:14 He got his tickets.

41:15 Me and a group of guys went there and we ended up sitting literally right next to the mat.

41:18 We were on the very front row kind of in the in the OU coaches section.

41:21 One of our guys was wearing the OSU shirt.

41:23 He had to put his jacket back on because they're like, Hey, man, we know your friends

41:26 with Sam, but you can't wear that shirt down here in this section.

41:29 But the level of energy in there because this is one of those years where OSU is really

41:33 good.

41:34 Oh, you just not that great.

41:35 It's just one of those years, but it really didn't matter.

41:38 The level of energy for this entire duel was was absolutely insane.

41:42 Just being a spectator, knowing that this has been happening for decades and decades.

41:46 And this was just my first one.

41:47 So kind of take us through as an Oklahoma kid who was recruited by both Oklahoma and Oklahoma

41:52 State.

41:53 What was it like being a part of bedlam as often as you were?

41:56 Well, you know, it's a it's a special feeling and what even makes it more special and even

42:01 more as almost even a spectator now is there's a lot of Oklahoma kids wrestling, right?

42:09 You know, and in my years, I'm sounding like I'm extremely old, but you know, in my years,

42:14 you know, we had out of our 10 guys that was starting line up seven or eight of those guys

42:19 were from the state of Oklahoma.

42:21 Yeah.

42:22 And it's almost like that.

42:23 Even now with Oklahoma State, no use got some sprinkled in there as well.

42:26 So for some of the fans, there's a there's a not necessarily skin in the game.

42:32 But you've seen this young man grow up or you've seen him wrestle before, you cheered

42:36 for him or you cheered against him, whatever the case may be.

42:40 And it's your, it's your, it's your, it's your, it's your, it's your cross town rival.

42:45 You know, they're 45 minutes to an hour away from still water and you want to beat him,

42:50 you know, so you get fired up for that match.

42:54 And just like any, any rivalry or in-state game, duel, whatever, you throw records out

42:59 of the window because anything can happen.

43:02 And when you got an elevated stage in Gallagher, Iberina with, you know, seven, eight thousand

43:07 some odd people there in all orange, it's a beautiful sight to see, you know, and it

43:12 makes it even more special that you get to beat somebody from OU, right?

43:15 And hope you're not the one to get beat, which it may happen.

43:18 That just happened to me.

43:20 But there's a lot of energy behind it.

43:22 Not much pep talk needs to go into it because you're ready.

43:27 And you're trying to, you're winning, you know, it's at stake, you know, it's at stake.

43:31 And you know, you want to go out there and dominate and put on a show for the fans.

43:35 And that's one thing that's, that's awesome about it because it wasn't OSU's last duel

43:39 this year.

43:40 It was Iowa, but every year that's kind of been, you know, it's seniors when, you know,

43:45 my last year, Russell and Byron was my, that was my last home duel.

43:49 So before the duel, what you guys saw, it was senior day.

43:54 And it's a little bit different football.

43:55 You got four quarters to kind of, you know, you got that whole 15 minute that you can

43:59 have the wrestling.

44:00 You don't have that, you know, when you're trying to control your emotions, then you

44:04 got to go out here and compete against the number three dude in the nation, your number

44:07 two and your last hurrah and your, so you got to learn how to control all that stuff

44:12 at that point in time and it's just a, it's a great atmosphere, man.

44:15 And you know, and, you know, OU's come and they showed a lot of energy and a lot of improvement

44:19 in that duel.

44:20 And that's what makes the state better, right?

44:24 That's what makes the state better.

44:26 You want OU to be as good as they can be.

44:27 You want O state to be as good as they can be because that's what makes the state better.

44:33 You know, and we got some solid college programs around this, around the state of Oklahoma.

44:37 I mean, really to have, to have OSU, OU and UCO, University of Central Oklahoma all have

44:43 this level of wrestler in the level of talent that they continuously get because, and we

44:49 see this a lot and people would normally see this with college football.

44:52 You see a lot of flash in the pan teams.

44:53 You see a team that got like five or six really good recruits that all kind of come up at the

44:57 same time.

44:58 They're in important positions and that team can really compete on a national level once.

45:02 But to do that year in and year out to be Oklahoma state, to be Iowa, to be one of those

45:08 programs, it's something that's completely different.

45:10 And so for you, you experienced pretty much everything you could experience as a collegiate

45:14 wrestler.

45:15 You went everywhere.

45:16 You did everything.

45:17 You experienced some of the most unique experiences any wrestler could, could want to have growing

45:21 up in any community in the country.

45:23 And then it was over.

45:24 I mean, you lose your last match as, as most people do.

45:27 I mean, most people don't get to win their last match, but then you're stuck with the

45:31 decision that a lot of wrestlers, especially in the nineties whenever you finish your wrestling

45:35 career, which is what's, what's next at the time, MMA is not that big of a thing.

45:40 It's just kind of one of those little fringe things.

45:42 You certainly can't make a career doing MMA in the late nineties, one of those types of

45:46 deals.

45:47 So kind of walk us through what that was like for you, kind of the decision process like,

45:50 okay, do I hang it up immediately?

45:52 Do I try to go for the Olympics?

45:53 Kind of tell us what that was like.

45:55 Yeah.

45:56 So once I, once I finished with my last match and you know, we had our bank with everything

46:00 wrapped up, I kind of contemplated what's my next step.

46:03 So I was still in still water and I was going to decide, what am I going to do now?

46:11 Do I want to keep wrestling?

46:12 Do I want to find a job?

46:13 I had my degree, so on and so forth.

46:16 So I end up taking a job up here in Oklahoma City with a company called Orthologic and

46:20 Medical Sales, but I would also still work out with the guys.

46:25 You know, I was working part time.

46:27 So I could still grad assist a little bit, help out, go train, so on and so forth.

46:31 Well, that eventually came to a point, it's like, I gotta start making some money.

46:36 I was traveling a lot by myself to some of our, you know, tournaments, you know, whether

46:40 they were in Arizona or Colorado or different places like that, by myself, cut weight by

46:44 myself.

46:45 That just got old.

46:46 You know, I was the only one doing it at that point in time and that just got old and

46:49 I was ready for something new.

46:50 So I ended up moving to Oklahoma City and, you know, getting a medical gig and kind of

46:55 been doing that and now in the pharmaceuticals.

46:58 But it's one of those things that I tell, you know, one of my nephews just graduated

47:03 from the University of West Virginia and I'm telling you guys, somewhere down the line,

47:07 your wrestling career will be over and every wrestler does not get into coaching.

47:14 Some of them, when they graduate, don't know what the heck they're going to do.

47:18 Now, like you talked about before, MMA is on a bigger platform now than what it was.

47:24 People are becoming very, very successful off of that.

47:27 So what's your next step?

47:30 You know, and now you got a lot more sponsors in wrestling.

47:33 You got wrestlers actually making a great living wrestling, you know, some of the top

47:40 notch guys here in the US are doing that.

47:42 I mean, that's their job.

47:43 They're training, right?

47:44 You have the RTCs now that are all around wrestling and they bring people in to train.

47:50 They bring these Olympic level athletes in the train with the college guys in turn is

47:55 making college wrestling so much better.

47:58 There's so much parity in this sport now because of that.

48:03 Also there's so much parity in this sport now because of what these young men and women

48:07 have been, how they've been trained and who they've been trained by coming up now.

48:13 But it was a tough decision.

48:15 So I quote unquote officially retired at the tender age of 20, 24 years of age and stepped

48:23 into the real world.

48:24 And here I am.

48:25 Well, the thing is that I like about how you describe that is unfortunately we've we've

48:30 had a lot of examples of people that just can't quite let it go.

48:33 So everyone's got the caricature.

48:34 It's the guy that that was a high school quarterback and he's still walking around wearing his letter

48:38 jacket today, talking about the state title game and you know, you have that guy.

48:41 So that's kind of the caricature thing.

48:43 But then there's the real life thing, which is there's a lot of collegiate athletes in

48:46 this country and almost and just like those dopey NCAA commercials, very few of them

48:51 go pro.

48:52 Right.

48:53 And in some of these sports going pro isn't exactly conducive to the quality of life that

48:57 they would want financially or you know, from you know, being able to have kind of more things

49:03 they can do with their time.

49:04 They don't have a lot of a lot of wiggle room.

49:06 And so it's good that you kind of came to that realization at such an early age because

49:10 there's, there's a lot of sacrifices that you have to make, especially in the sport, which

49:13 actually leads me to a question for you.

49:15 The big sacrifice in wrestling that a lot of people kind of forget about its weight control

49:20 and specifically weight cutting.

49:23 And so from your perspective, having basically been a wrestler your entire life, you cut

49:28 weight your entire life, you had weight control on your mind.

49:31 I mean, by the time you retired, you had been concerned about your weight for essentially

49:34 20 years, right?

49:35 And making sure you were within striking distance before the weekend, before the turn

49:39 of before whatever, give us your overall thoughts on weight cutting in general, weight cutting

49:45 as an adult, weight cutting as a child going up, just kind of go with it.

49:49 You know, that's a great question, Kyle.

49:50 So the way I phrase this, and I'm going back, I'll start kind of with the youth first because

49:57 that's what I deal with now on a regular basis.

50:00 And I let my parents know that the kids wrestle what they weigh.

50:04 You know, I'll go prime example for me.

50:06 You know, my son, the past couple of years was weighing, you know, the weight was 64 pounds.

50:14 He was weighing 62, 63, sometimes 63 and a half.

50:18 You know what, man?

50:19 You're going to wrestle 64.

50:21 That's it.

50:22 You know, you're going to wrestle 64 pounds.

50:24 You're going to go out and scrap and have fun and we'll go from there.

50:26 Once again, no one's coming to recruit these kids right now.

50:30 And that's a thing with wrestling that we as wrestlers and us as a club as well, we

50:37 have to educate our parents on that because I still hear that now.

50:41 I don't know about wrestling and the weight cutting.

50:44 It's not even, I wouldn't even say weight cutting.

50:46 I mean, it's all about diet, clean eating.

50:51 We see it all now.

50:52 You got gluten-free stuff.

50:53 You got organic stuff.

50:54 Now, like it's changed so much.

50:56 I was blessed as far as high school wise because my mom was a nurse.

50:59 So she understood what to put in my body, what not to put in my body.

51:05 I remember one time I was at, this is sidebar here, but I was at JOCs and there was a gentleman

51:12 that came up to me.

51:14 I went to go buy a coke after I wrestled, right?

51:18 We didn't know no better.

51:19 Yeah.

51:20 Go buy coke.

51:21 He came up to me and he was like, he asked me where my dad was at and I said he's up

51:24 in his stance.

51:25 He was getting pleased, the guy who actually was a long distance runner from Kenya at UCO.

51:32 Okay.

51:33 Yeah.

51:34 So I went and got my dad, brought him down.

51:35 I said, this gentleman wants to talk to you and he told my dad, he said, this is not

51:38 good for your son.

51:39 He should not be drinking this.

51:40 He should drink water, something like that.

51:46 That's bold for a guy that doesn't know you, but what he was telling me was this affects

51:50 your shape.

51:51 Right.

51:52 This affects your wind.

51:53 This affects your cardio, right?

51:56 So that was a little sidebar, things that we didn't know.

52:00 And now I'm going to college and high school, middle school, what they do now, they do wait

52:07 certification.

52:08 Okay.

52:09 When I wrestled in college, we would weigh in a day before.

52:13 We would weigh in a day before.

52:14 So I'm wrestling 158 pounds and I had my routine down.

52:18 We'd weigh in.

52:19 We would weigh in Thursday.

52:20 We didn't wrestle until Friday night.

52:22 We would go eat as a team, wherever we were eating at some Italian spot, get some carbs

52:26 and things like that later on that day, I'd go to Subway and get me a foot long steak

52:31 and cheese.

52:32 That was my routine.

52:33 Okay.

52:34 Wake up the next morning.

52:36 We had class.

52:37 I'd go to class, get a workout in.

52:38 We doodled that night.

52:39 Well, I weighed in 158 on Thursday.

52:42 By Friday evening, I could be weighing 165, 66, it just a pin, right?

52:47 I didn't like trying to get above that.

52:51 My senior year, there was three deaths.

52:54 Guy's trying to cut too much weight in a short amount of period of time, not healthy.

52:59 Okay.

53:00 NCAA came in and changed the rules.

53:03 So 158 went to 165, all right?

53:07 150 went to 157, 118 went to 125, so on and so forth, there's different changes, right?

53:15 So middle of my year, I go from 58 to 65.

53:19 Now, there were some 67 pounders that came down to 65 because they were a small 167 pounder,

53:26 but they couldn't make 58, but they can make 65, okay?

53:30 So the year after that, they started body fat testing, hydrating testing.

53:34 You can only lose a certain amount of weight per week, so on and so forth.

53:38 So they have cleaned all that up.

53:40 There's no, there's, you know, saunas can only be to use for like recovery and different

53:44 things, not cutting weight.

53:45 You cannot use plastics anymore.

53:47 So they've cleaned all that up from the middle school level, high school level, college

53:52 level, okay?

53:53 And now even international level.

53:56 So like I said before, we were swaying the day before.

53:59 Now at duels, you weigh in the same day, an hour before you rustle, right?

54:05 Tournament, it's two hours before you rustle, right?

54:09 And you have to be hydrated at that weight, better for the sport, safety for everybody

54:16 involved.

54:17 And the day changes and it's for the betterment of the sport.

54:20 In turn, stops everybody from trying to cut a crazy amount of weight in a short period

54:26 of time.

54:27 And I tell my parents all the time, let them rustle away, they're going to cut, they're

54:31 going to, they're going to cut weight, they're going to lose weight.

54:34 When they get a little bit older, that's when you kind of start dealing with that stuff.

54:37 You know what I mean?

54:38 Especially when you're talking about that three, four, five, six, seven pounds, depending

54:42 on what the kids body is like, how much is he shredded, is he, you know, does he have

54:46 a little bit to lose, so on and so forth.

54:49 Because we get kids that come in from football and they're chubby.

54:52 Yeah, sure.

54:53 And it's not even powerlifting.

54:54 Even potatoes.

54:55 And it's not a fact of them cutting weight.

54:57 They lose weight because of what you're doing during wrestling.

55:00 You're using every inch of your body.

55:04 And it's a hot, sweaty, stinky, awesome room, man, I lost two pounds a day.

55:09 Yeah, sure.

55:10 Right.

55:11 That's a light practice, right?

55:12 So the weight cutting aspect has gotten a lot better, a lot more safer, and I love the

55:17 changes that they've made for every level.

55:20 And we talked to our kids and parents about what to put in their body, what not to put

55:24 in their body.

55:25 Don't give them a lot of candy at tournaments.

55:27 Don't go eat the Frito, chili pie, you know, wrestling, like, you know, get your water,

55:33 put that in, get some fruit, get some little snacks and stuff like that.

55:36 Don't go eat a lot of that stuff at the concession stand, especially while they are in competition

55:42 at rest.

55:43 Yeah, well, I mean, you talked most importantly about educating the parents because I look

55:47 back on what my parents fed me growing up.

55:49 And so I didn't have great genetics.

55:51 Like, I was overweight as a kid, like, you know, I just wasn't one of those kids that

55:55 could eat anything and look fine.

55:56 Like, so I was overweight really until I got closer to high school.

56:00 And so when you look back at how you fueled, like, I didn't drink water as a kid.

56:03 I drink Shasta.

56:04 Right.

56:05 When I went to my dad's house, we would go get a case of Shasta.

56:07 And that's how we hydrated.

56:08 I mean, he didn't know any better.

56:09 I didn't know any better.

56:10 That's just, I'm thirsty.

56:11 So I just got a soda pop, right?

56:13 And so it's just one of those deals where now parents, they don't have any excuses.

56:16 It's kind of like if you smoke cigarettes today, you're pretty much an idiot.

56:19 It's like we've got decades of research that tells you you're going to die a horrible,

56:23 terribly painful death and you deserve it if you still do this thing, right?

56:26 So it's kind of one of those things that if you're a parent today, it kind of gives you

56:30 a chance to not only educate the kid, but educate the parent as well.

56:34 And so I appreciate your perspective on that.

56:36 And one, one quick thing I wanted to go back to a couple of things with Oklahoma State,

56:39 but I was curious because you mentioned the way cutting there a couple times your perspective

56:42 didn't want to forget it, but something really cool happened for you in 2016.

56:47 So it's something called the Gallagher Award.

56:48 So the Gallagher Award, it's something that's presented annually and it's presented to an

56:52 OSU alumnus who as they say, exemplifies the spirit and leadership imminent in the tradition

56:58 of champions.

56:59 So that's, that's fairly abbreviated language to say this is an awesome person that didn't

57:02 just win stuff while they were here, but they kind of kept that going.

57:06 But I wanted to read you a quote because I'm not sure if you ever read it, I'm sure you

57:09 might have, but this is your, your coach, John Smith, like, like you said, the most decorated,

57:14 most important, probably wrestler in the history of the United States.

57:16 He said this about you.

57:17 He said Hardell was a two time all American for us here at Oklahoma State, but what he

57:21 did following his career here was much greater over the last 17 years.

57:25 This was in 2016.

57:26 So over the last 17 years, he has had one of the best clubs in the state of Oklahoma,

57:31 if not the whole country, although having a full time job, he finds a way to help others.

57:35 He has made a difference for a lot of young people to move on to college and receive a

57:40 scholarship.

57:41 He exemplifies the spirit and leadership of the coach Gallagher Award.

57:45 So what does it, you know, kind of give us an idea.

57:47 How did you even know that you were going to be given the Gallagher Award?

57:51 What did it, what did it mean to hear John Smith, the legendary John Smith say something

57:56 like that about you?

57:57 Kind of take us through that whole process humbling.

57:59 First off, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.

58:02 So I was out working in 2016 and just, you know, doing my due diligence, doing my job.

58:08 And I get my car and I get a phone call and, you know, obviously I got him in my phone

58:12 and it pops up Coach Smith's cell.

58:15 So I pick up the phone and I'm like, "Hey coach, how you doing, man?"

58:17 He's like, "Hardell, what's going on?"

58:18 I'm like, "Nothing, man, just doing my job out here working, you know, trying to make

58:23 a buck."

58:24 And he goes, "Well, I wanted to call and congratulate you on winning the Ed Gallagher Award."

58:29 And I just kind of, I was silent for a little while because I've heard of the award, knew

58:35 what the award was, but had the slightest idea I was even up for that award.

58:41 Didn't know not one bit and I guess that's the joy/surprise of that, right?

58:48 And it was extremely cool to me because they were dueling Stanford that Sunday that I received

58:55 that award and my best friend, Jamil Kelly was coaching for Stanford at that point in

59:02 time.

59:03 So I got to take pictures with him and see him and all that stuff and everything like that.

59:06 But Coach gave me the award and, you know, I had a chance to read that of what he said

59:11 to me and, you know, you just try to, you try to do the best you can when you are away from

59:19 your house.

59:21 And a lot of that gets attested to how I was brought up.

59:25 And I say this quite a bit.

59:27 I wasn't scared of Coach Smith.

59:30 I wasn't scared of Coach Perry.

59:31 Those were not the two individuals I was afraid of.

59:34 I was afraid of Ernest and Margaret Moore.

59:38 So I was afraid of disappointing them.

59:42 So my coaches in college knew that they didn't have to worry about me.

59:48 They understood I was going to do the right thing.

59:50 They understood I was going to make the grades.

59:52 And they also understood that I was going to compete as hard as I can and the best of

59:56 my ability every time I laced up those shoes and represented that beautiful orange singlet

1:00:00 with Oklahoma State University on it.

1:00:03 And you know, we talked about this earlier.

1:00:07 Sometimes you really don't understand the impact you make.

1:00:10 And I've been blessed to be able to coach our youth and invest in our youth for 21 years.

1:00:18 Never thought I would do that.

1:00:21 But that's what continues, I guess, if you want to say legacy, so on and so forth.

1:00:27 But that's what is continuing to make impact and exactly what Coach Smith says, making

1:00:33 impact.

1:00:34 You know, and yes, I do have a full-time job.

1:00:36 We run a nonprofit 501c3 where everybody volunteers, nobody collects, it's volunteering to give

1:00:43 back to the youth through this wonderful sport of wrestling.

1:00:47 And to receive that award in front of my family and friends and I had a lot of my formers

1:00:54 in the stands and some that was wrestling on the team, O state's team that day.

1:00:58 It was an honor.

1:00:59 It was a blessing.

1:01:00 And you know, like I said, extremely humble for it and just just keep doing what I'm doing.

1:01:06 Just keep doing what I'm doing.

1:01:07 Well, that's encouragement whenever you see someone because it's best whenever you get

1:01:11 surprised by something like that, whenever it's like, wait a minute, somebody thought

1:01:14 enough of me to say, Hey, let's throw a hard L's name in the hat for something like that.

1:01:19 So that's got to be humbling because it you have some of those people that win those awards.

1:01:23 And when you go look at their LinkedIn people, just giving you a heads up, some of the people,

1:01:26 they applied for those awards themselves, right?

1:01:29 And they just went ahead and got them.

1:01:30 So it is a different thing entirely.

1:01:32 And you mentioned getting into coaching right after and it will certainly spend some more

1:01:35 time on coaching before we get off of Oakland mistake, kind of the last question on your

1:01:38 time with Oakland mistake, just by virtue of being there and by virtue of it being the

1:01:42 legendary program that it is, you had some very noteworthy teammates.

1:01:46 Yeah.

1:01:47 And so kind of take us through some of some of the folks that, you know, even these listeners,

1:01:50 if you're a wrestling fan or maybe maybe a rest, a fan of another combat sport, some

1:01:54 of the people that you were specifically teammates with or even others that you were connected

1:01:57 to just by being an Oakland mistake when you were.

1:02:00 Well, just wrestling wise, and also there's some MMA buddies in there as well, but just

1:02:03 wrestling wise, you know, I'll just kind of run down the list.

1:02:07 You know, Mark Branch goes into NCAA's as a freshman with the losing record and becomes

1:02:11 a national champion.

1:02:13 And not only did he become a national champion, he became a four time All-American, two time

1:02:17 national champion and a four time finalists.

1:02:19 It's not terrible.

1:02:20 You know, it's not that bad.

1:02:21 Not terrible.

1:02:22 When highly recruited, Alan Freed, which is one of the most freakish slash athletic dudes

1:02:29 I've ever seen out of Ohio, guy had a gas tank would never get tired.

1:02:35 Dude was just awesome.

1:02:37 He was another one.

1:02:38 He became a group from Cleveland, Oklahoma, was another one, you know, starting it all,

1:02:42 even with Pat Smith, right, becoming the first four time national champ that has it,

1:02:49 it's never happened.

1:02:50 Right?

1:02:51 He was the first one to do.

1:02:52 Yeah.

1:02:53 You know, now you got, you know, got a few other guys that have done it, but he was the

1:02:55 first one to get that done.

1:02:57 So those are four guys wrestling wise that come off the top of mind that are right there

1:03:02 off the top of my head.

1:03:03 You know, Jamil Kelly is another one.

1:03:04 We talked about him earlier.

1:03:06 One of high school state championship never wasn't all American, but became an Olympic

1:03:10 silver medalist and to get to make the world team like he had to beat national, national

1:03:15 champs.

1:03:16 He was the only one in the bracket that wasn't a national champ or all American and he makes

1:03:19 that run.

1:03:21 Mark Munoz, right?

1:03:22 One of the nicest, kindest individuals I know, hands down.

1:03:31 And when they said in MMA, he's probably the nicest guy in MMA.

1:03:35 That is the truth.

1:03:36 I remember people saying that started interrupting.

1:03:37 I remember people saying that and thinking to myself, wait, wait, are you talking about

1:03:40 the guy that literally Donkey Kong's people into unconsciousness?

1:03:43 He's like the nicest guy.

1:03:45 So, so like for him, he seemed to have a switch that he could flip whenever it became

1:03:50 a competition.

1:03:51 And he never, he never got into a fight until his first MMA fight.

1:03:54 Wow.

1:03:55 Like Munoz was like said, the dude was a freak athlete.

1:03:58 He was a semi pro volleyball player.

1:03:59 I didn't find that out till he got to college, right?

1:04:02 We didn't know that.

1:04:03 He was a semi pro volleyball.

1:04:04 Of course he was.

1:04:05 Yeah, sure.

1:04:06 Right.

1:04:07 Didn't start wrestling too.

1:04:08 He was a freshman was a two time California state champ, which is crazy because in California,

1:04:13 it's everybody in the state of California that Russell, it's not split up in a class.

1:04:17 It's everybody.

1:04:20 Just athletic.

1:04:21 He was one of the ones I took under my wing and tried to and taught him how to like cut

1:04:25 weight because in high school, he never had to do that part.

1:04:28 But you know, becomes a national champion and then has a successful MMA career, right?

1:04:35 Me and Jamil went out for his first fight when he fought for WEC, they fought out in Sacramento

1:04:40 because he used to train out of a Uriah Fabers gym there as well.

1:04:45 So he's one connection.

1:04:47 Also Mola wall, right?

1:04:48 Yeah.

1:04:49 King Mo up here at King Mo, Russell at UCO.

1:04:52 I used to go and train with him back when I was younger, no longer do that anymore.

1:04:58 He's another one.

1:05:00 You know, the most, the most famous one as we could say is Daniel.

1:05:04 Daniel Cormier, right?

1:05:05 I wasn't actually on Daniel's team, but was still very tight knitted with Oklahoma State,

1:05:10 which I still am to this day.

1:05:13 No Daniel extremely well.

1:05:14 And he's the same Daniel as he was then as he is now.

1:05:19 Same dude.

1:05:20 Had to change one bit.

1:05:21 I could call Daniel today chitchat with him and it's like we just talked two hours ago.

1:05:26 And that once again is that OSU family and their coaches tree of wrestlers is phenomenal.

1:05:37 Like he's got, I'm guessing just anywhere from seven to 10 coaches in college that have

1:05:43 all wrestled under John and then you have the assistant coaches and then you still have

1:05:49 some coaches that do youth stuff.

1:05:51 You know, Nick Perler's another one that does youth, Nick and Tony Perler, me, like that's

1:05:56 where he did an interview a couple of weeks ago and was talking about his legacy.

1:06:02 And he was discussing about his legacy being what he can do with the sport and how he can

1:06:07 still advance the sport and how many other people that wrestled underneath him that are

1:06:12 coaching.

1:06:14 That legacy will go on forever.

1:06:16 Sure, yeah, because there's going to be other coaches that wrestled for Coach Smith that

1:06:21 are coaching now will have kids that wrestled for them that will coach late.

1:06:25 You know what I mean?

1:06:26 Like it just continues to go on.

1:06:28 And you know, he's been there for almost been there 30 some like 30 years, I think, right?

1:06:32 Something like that up there.

1:06:33 So, you know, those are a couple of names.

1:06:36 Some people know who they are.

1:06:37 Some know who they don't.

1:06:38 I'm probably leaving out a few, but you know, all of those guys around that time, man, you

1:06:42 know, we do a, we did a reunion a couple of years back and it was just good to see a

1:06:46 lot of those people that I haven't seen in a while.

1:06:49 And I mean, it is, it is, it is a family, man.

1:06:52 It's a family.

1:06:53 It's just awesome.

1:06:54 Well, and they have a lot of pride because you even see, because again, Daniel Cormier

1:06:56 is going to be the name that most people recognize, but anytime that guy can wear orange and

1:07:00 black, he's wearing it.

1:07:01 Oh, yeah.

1:07:02 Like he's clearly doing that.

1:07:03 And like he's just so proud.

1:07:04 Well, he's extremely proud, you know, and another one I'm just kind of thinking to Daniel

1:07:07 fighting out of AKA is Kyle Crutchman, right?

1:07:10 You know, he's up at AKA, he's another Okey State, Okey State cowboy, you know, and, and

1:07:14 you know, Daniel's kind of taking him under his wing up there at AKA and you know, Kyle's

1:07:19 doing well.

1:07:20 He's what?

1:07:21 6 and 0, 7 and 0 right now.

1:07:22 So doing his thing.

1:07:23 So, you know, it's, and it's awesome to see when they do the countdowns or do the embeddings

1:07:28 or whatever.

1:07:29 And you see these guys in that O-State gear and they give O-State a lot of credit, you

1:07:32 know, they give O-State a lot of credit, which is, which is awesome to see.

1:07:36 It's good to see.

1:07:37 Well, and the cool thing about watching Daniel's career and we won't spend a ton of time on

1:07:41 him, we'll let him speak for himself someday when he comes on this podcast.

1:07:44 But the cool thing about Daniel is he's had one of the more interesting trajectories because

1:07:49 obviously, you know, this guy, you know, there was a lot made about, oh, he just can't win

1:07:54 the big one.

1:07:55 You know, he could just, he couldn't win the big one in college, couldn't win the big one

1:07:57 when it got to, you know, the Olympic level, you know, he had that little weight cutting

1:08:00 snap.

1:08:01 There was just all this, always this thing.

1:08:03 And then he gets to MMA and there's this, you know, little, little known guy named John

1:08:07 Jones that just so happens to be in his division after he cut, he got down from heavyweight

1:08:11 to light heavyweight.

1:08:12 But the interesting thing about Daniel Cormier is Daniel Cormier has made one of the Renaissance

1:08:17 and one of the risings in this, in the sport of MMA that has been more impressive than

1:08:22 just about anybody because at the time that he was going toe to toe with John Jones, everyone

1:08:27 like John Jones, no one like Daniel.

1:08:29 It was just one of those things because John Jones was the perfect superstar.

1:08:33 Not only was he vicious and incredible in the octagon, he was a nice guy seemingly on

1:08:37 the outside.

1:08:38 And Daniel was just kind of this guy, you know, he was just kind of like the thorn stuck in

1:08:43 John Jones's paw.

1:08:44 And then it's like after their second fight, it flipped.

1:08:48 It's like it flipped on its head.

1:08:49 And you know, John Jones failed a drug test.

1:08:51 And then everybody started, not only feeling bad for Daniel Cormier, but then they started

1:08:55 to respect him a little bit more.

1:08:57 They started realizing, wait a minute.

1:08:58 This guy's in, he's undefeated at heavyweight.

1:09:00 He's destroyed everybody at the light heavyweight level, except for John Jones.

1:09:04 And he seems to be a genuinely nice guy.

1:09:07 So the thing that's interesting is as an MMA fan, I was one of the guys that took that

1:09:11 roller coaster.

1:09:12 I was like, oh, screw Daniel, you know, it's all about John Jones.

1:09:15 And then you kind of flip.

1:09:16 And now you're at this point in his career where you want to see the trilogy fight with

1:09:18 Steve Bebo.

1:09:19 I want to know from you, being a guy that's a personal friend of his, someone that Daniel

1:09:23 has had out at UFC fights to come out as his guests and those types of things.

1:09:27 What's it been like for you watching the trajectory of this guy that's a friend of yours that's

1:09:32 been going on basically in the public light for this long?

1:09:35 Yeah.

1:09:36 I mean, it's been pretty cool, you know.

1:09:38 And like I said before, I'm like, he's the same dude.

1:09:41 He's the exact same dude, like whether it's text messaging through a thread or whatever.

1:09:46 He's still, he's still that dude, Daniel.

1:09:49 And, and I think another cool thing about, you know, our crew that, you know, hang out

1:09:54 or text or call, we treat him the same way.

1:09:56 I mean, he's, he's Daniel to us, you know, he's, he's a very family-oriented dude.

1:10:02 He's done a lot for his family.

1:10:05 He's done a lot.

1:10:06 He's done a lot for his Gilroy High School too, right?

1:10:11 Yeah, sure.

1:10:12 Not only does, not only is Daniel a full-time fighter in doing that, the dude is, got these

1:10:18 guys at Gilroy going to crazy levels right now and he's not getting paid for it, which

1:10:24 is awesome.

1:10:25 Right.

1:10:26 He's the assistant's, you know, a crutchman, Deron Nguyen, Sean Bunch, like that's a heck

1:10:31 of a staff.

1:10:32 Right?

1:10:33 That's a heck of staff.

1:10:34 But Daniel is the same dude.

1:10:35 He's a genuine dude.

1:10:38 He is a competitor.

1:10:39 And what I like about it is the way Daniel fights with that pressure going forward is

1:10:44 the same way that dude wrestled.

1:10:46 That dude would put on a show and if you locked up top with that dude, you'd be dumped on

1:10:50 your head.

1:10:51 And, you know, he's doing a, he's doing a great job with the commentary.

1:10:55 Sure.

1:10:56 Yeah.

1:10:57 And many other things that he, what was that T-Mobile or sprint that he had the commercial

1:11:01 with back in the day, like he's just a fun, loving guy and anybody that can make the

1:11:06 video all about that cake, right?

1:11:08 Mm-hmm.

1:11:09 Make fun.

1:11:10 I mean, that's Daniel.

1:11:11 That is Daniel.

1:11:12 He loves to have people around a close tight-knit group, his family and I mean, once you're in

1:11:17 there, you're in there, man.

1:11:18 But like I said, I also give him this space, right?

1:11:20 I'm not trying to ask for a lot of stuff or anything like that.

1:11:23 I'm just glad I know the dude and we chitchat from time to time and I wish him nothing but

1:11:28 the best, you know, with this trilogy fight against steepay.

1:11:31 And then after that, man, the dude is a success already and he's going to do nothing but

1:11:36 continue to grow his legacy, right?

1:11:38 And he's, he's just doing phenomenal things, man.

1:11:42 It's awesome to see.

1:11:43 And like I said, he credits a lot to John W, man.

1:11:45 I mean, that's, that's, that's the dude that kind of taught us all, right?

1:11:49 When he's going to be one of those generational success stories, he just feels like one of those

1:11:52 guys that if you're going to pick a horse that he would be the one to be like, not only is

1:11:56 this guy going to be going to go down as a top 10, if not top five greatest fighter ever,

1:12:01 this is going to be a guy that's going to go on and have that successful career behind

1:12:04 the microphone.

1:12:05 He's almost like Michael Strahan.

1:12:06 It's like Michael Strahan was a really, really good NFL defensive end.

1:12:11 And then he's more famous now being a television personality and he's just because he's so

1:12:15 smart, so personable.

1:12:16 So it's awesome to really see that, but it would be, I would be doing a disservice to

1:12:21 our fans here in an Olympic year, if we didn't talk a little bit of Olympic wrestling.

1:12:25 So there, there's some really interesting things happening.

1:12:27 And I'm not talking about coronavirus.

1:12:29 I don't assume that Tokyo is going to pull the plug on the Olympics because of a little

1:12:33 bit of virus, a little virus.

1:12:34 And hopefully this is a one of those quotes that doesn't go, come back to haunt me later

1:12:38 on in life, but I don't think that we're going to have that problem.

1:12:41 But there's some really interesting things going on with USA wrestling, especially on

1:12:44 the freestyle side.

1:12:45 And it's mainly because of the lack of weights, the lack of weight divisions has caused some

1:12:50 fairly significant, some jumbling up of talent.

1:12:54 So before we get into two specific weights, because I definitely want to talk about 74

1:12:58 kilos and 97 kilos, what is your opinion on wrestling in terms of on the Olympic level?

1:13:03 There was, there was a little bit of drama about wrestling being dropped at some point,

1:13:07 even though it's one of, if not the oldest sport on the planet earth.

1:13:10 But then what is just kind of your opinion as a fan of wrestling, seeing so few weights

1:13:14 competed, thus, you know, stamping out some of the best talent in the world at those weights.

1:13:19 You know, that's the, that's the tough part, man, because in all due respect, team USA

1:13:26 is phenomenal.

1:13:28 And I mean that from top to bottom.

1:13:29 I mean, from our Greco team, freestyle team, men and women, right?

1:13:36 You know, you got to think about it.

1:13:37 And some of these weights, there's going to be some world champs left at the house.

1:13:41 And I'm not competing in it.

1:13:45 So it'll be a tougher pill for them to swallow than I.

1:13:48 Yeah.

1:13:49 But as a fan, it, it, probably for some people, it makes it a little bit more, I mean, it's

1:13:55 a lot more interesting because there's only six weights, but man, I wish there could

1:14:00 be 10.

1:14:01 I really, really do, you know, back in the day there was, you know, and then at the world

1:14:04 championships, there are 10 weights and stuff like that and it allows more people to wrestle

1:14:08 whether it's on the men's side or the women's side, right, either or.

1:14:13 So it's, I think, you know, with, with, with the Olympic year, I, it's almost like I want

1:14:18 to say, man, you're, you're cheating some people, but I also, I know it only comes every

1:14:21 four years.

1:14:22 Yeah.

1:14:23 And it's, um, it's in good hands.

1:14:28 We got every weight is deep.

1:14:34 Every weight is deep, hands down.

1:14:37 It's just going to matter who's going to show up that day and be the top dog.

1:14:41 Yeah, and the trials, the best or who's going to turn it on or who's going to be stingy

1:14:46 with their defense, who's going to be, um, extremely technical, who's going to have

1:14:51 more grit, who's going to have more dog, these guys and girls, they already know all of that.

1:14:57 And you know, these are high, high level wrestlers.

1:15:03 And sometimes when you watch a high level match, it may not be as high scoring or some

1:15:09 people, just like an MMA fight, right?

1:15:12 Just like an MMA fight, but there's still so much technique that goes into that, that's

1:15:17 your normal, whether it's wrestling fan or MMA fan be like, Oh, why don't you just knock

1:15:22 him out?

1:15:23 Man, it ain't that easy.

1:15:24 No, you know, especially when they're so evenly matched.

1:15:26 Yeah.

1:15:27 We talked about that.

1:15:28 Or some people say, why don't you just shoot or push them out of it?

1:15:30 It's not that easy.

1:15:33 So you look at these weights at 74 kilos.

1:15:35 I mean, you got Jordan Burroughs, which is, you know, trying to become the most decorated

1:15:40 American wrestlers.

1:15:41 Well, like that dude has been on a tear since he graduated from Nebraska.

1:15:45 You know, you got Kyle Dake dropping down to his, his weight.

1:15:47 So you got Burroughs as a, as a multi-time world champ, five time world champion.

1:15:51 You got Kyle Dake as a returning two time world champ, they're going to be competing.

1:15:56 And don't forget about, you know, your other guys in there, the Martinez is in, and, and

1:16:00 Tommy Gant, I mean, there's a whole laundry list.

1:16:03 And then you go from 74 up to 86 kilos, you know, David Taylor is in that mix.

1:16:09 You got Alex Darringer in that mix.

1:16:10 You got Poutdown down in that mix.

1:16:12 And I know there's some other ones that I'm, that I'm missing there.

1:16:15 Then you go to 97 kilo, 97 just doesn't make any sense.

1:16:18 So for those of you guys who are not following this, you'll know these names, bow nickel.

1:16:22 He's a three time defending national champion out of Penn State.

1:16:25 You got Jaden Cox, who's a two time defending world champion used to wrestle on metal.

1:16:29 Yeah.

1:16:30 And then you got Kyle Snyder, the defending Olympic champion, two of those guys are not

1:16:36 going to Tokyo.

1:16:38 Like that, that is the craziest thing because that's three different guys that that could

1:16:43 be three separate gold medals for the United States.

1:16:45 You think about it also, college, just why you're talking about that.

1:16:48 You know, all those news were three time national champions, all three time national champions.

1:16:53 You got to, you got an Olympic gold medalist with Kyle Snyder.

1:16:56 You got Olympic bronze with Jaden.

1:16:58 You got a U-23 world championship with bow nickel.

1:17:02 So these dudes are high level.

1:17:04 These dudes are extremely high level.

1:17:05 So you know, and there's going to be some other guys in that way, Colin Moore, but those

1:17:09 are probably your top, they're your top three, Jaden and Kyle are your top two.

1:17:15 So it's, it's going to be interesting, man.

1:17:18 You know, and you think about it, like I said, that's, that's the tough part that there's

1:17:22 going to be some hammers left at the house.

1:17:25 That's the rules, it is what it is.

1:17:29 Those guys and girls, gals, no, they have to control the controllables.

1:17:33 They have to control what they control.

1:17:35 And that is going out in wrestling to their best of their ability that day.

1:17:41 Those five matches or however many matches they got to wrestle to go to the Olympic Games.

1:17:46 Well, I've got to get some predictions for you for our from you on this.

1:17:49 So who do you think is going to represent the United States at 74 kilos?

1:17:52 Is it going to be Jordan Burrows or Kyle Dake?

1:17:54 And that's a tough one.

1:17:57 I'm going to go JB, man.

1:17:59 I'm going JB, like the dudes, the dudes of it.

1:18:02 And that's, that's where I'm going.

1:18:05 I'm going JB on that one.

1:18:06 Okay.

1:18:07 Then we go to 97.

1:18:08 I'm assuming Bo Nickel will be on the outside looking in.

1:18:11 He's a little bit small for 97 kilos, but between our, I guess I won't give you any options

1:18:16 out of all the guys that are there at 97 kilos.

1:18:19 We've mentioned nickel, Cox and Snyder.

1:18:21 Who do you think is going to represent the US?

1:18:22 Jaden.

1:18:23 Okay.

1:18:24 Why?

1:18:25 Just because that dude is a, not only, he's a, he's extremely smart wrestlers, extremely

1:18:31 technical and he moves so fluently, you know, and I think he's just going to outslick Kyle

1:18:38 in certain positions, right?

1:18:41 Both of these guys have ways to pass my wrestling ability, but just kind of as a fan and having

1:18:46 a little fun with it and seeing who's going to win, I would say, I would say Jaden, I would

1:18:51 say Jaden, you know, you can't go wrong with any of them, but you're asking me on the

1:18:57 point.

1:18:58 I'll say Jaden Cox.

1:18:59 Okay.

1:19:00 So let's go ahead and fast forward to Tokyo and I'll get your gold medal predictions here

1:19:02 in a second.

1:19:03 Are there any wrestlers that, you know, wrestling fans are just Americans that, but that want

1:19:07 to watch Americans do well on the world stage?

1:19:10 Are there any wrestlers that you think will have a surprising performance, any US wrestlers

1:19:16 that you think will make the team that will make it out there that, hey, we need to remember

1:19:19 that name because you may not know it now, but you need to be paying attention.

1:19:22 Yani comes to mind for me.

1:19:24 He's the one for me.

1:19:25 But who are some people that you think are going to perform exceedingly well that maybe

1:19:29 we don't know their name quite yet?

1:19:30 Now, you mean at the trials?

1:19:32 No, I mean, let's go ahead and go to Tokyo.

1:19:34 So yeah, we're going to go ahead because I mean, you already put Yani already there,

1:19:38 huh?

1:19:39 That's okay.

1:19:40 I am.

1:19:41 I know it's a super deep way, but that dude is a, he's a monster and he's got something

1:19:46 different.

1:19:47 He's got a different level of dog in him.

1:19:48 I told you who mine was.

1:19:49 You didn't have to agree with me.

1:19:50 All right.

1:19:51 You don't have to put me completely on blast.

1:19:52 But yes, we are fast forwarding to Tokyo a little bit.

1:19:55 And so we're going over the trial.

1:19:57 So we're going to make, we're going to make quite a few assumptions because the trials

1:20:00 aren't until early April, right?

1:20:02 So it's like the second through the fifth of April.

1:20:04 But who do you think is going to perform on the, on the world stage?

1:20:07 Man, that's a tough one to ask just because I don't know who's going to be there.

1:20:11 I know.

1:20:12 Why do you think I asked?

1:20:13 I didn't want to just give you a bunch of easy questions.

1:20:14 I mean, I don't know, man, that one's, that's a tough one.

1:20:18 You know, you said, Yani, I don't know if Yani's going to come out of that bracket.

1:20:25 That's my, that's my prediction.

1:20:26 Okay.

1:20:27 That bracket is crazy deep.

1:20:28 I really think, you know, in all due respect, I'll just, I'll say, I'm going to say Jaden

1:20:34 just because I picked him already.

1:20:37 You know him and my man from Russia.

1:20:39 So I do a lie off, I think is how you pronounce his name, I could be wrong on that.

1:20:44 But you know, they've been talking about the quote unquote match up who would win if it

1:20:48 happened.

1:20:49 Right.

1:20:50 Now all this is hearsay.

1:20:51 If it does happen, that'd be a crazy match.

1:20:53 And I, I would put, I, I bet Jaden on that just because how Jaden Cox wrestles the dude

1:21:00 that has crazy defense.

1:21:02 He's crazy athletic.

1:21:04 He's crazy smart.

1:21:05 He understands where he's at on the mat, when to take a shot, when not.

1:21:09 I mean, you think about it, the guy didn't give up any points last year at Worlds, you

1:21:14 know, and the dude is just, he's a, he's a competitor, man.

1:21:16 He's, he's, and I think, you know, when he went to Colorado Springs up there with Kevin

1:21:20 Jackson has helped him out tremendously now he's training at the Ohio State RTC where Kyle

1:21:25 Snyder used to train and, you know, he's ready, they're already, but like I said, that's Jaden,

1:21:33 Jaden's going to make some folks, and just on, just on his, his movement and how the guy,

1:21:40 how the guy gets it.

1:21:41 I mean, these guys are, they're laser focused right now.

1:21:44 Right.

1:21:45 Like I remember when Jamil and Daniel and even Eric Guerrero were going through this process,

1:21:49 Teetmore, all these guys, they're just, they're selfish and they need to be selfish because

1:21:55 at this point in time, it's selfish.

1:21:58 You need to be selfish.

1:21:59 You need to be aware about anybody else except yourself.

1:22:03 And that's what these, that's what these young men and women are doing.

1:22:06 Right.

1:22:07 Well, Jaden Cox, he's got an incredibly, he's got highlight real style.

1:22:10 I mean, if you've watched this guy even back in Missouri, I just remember when I didn't

1:22:13 even know his name and I was watching the finals, I was like, whoa, like he just, everything

1:22:16 he does is beastly like every single thing that he does, like he, and he doesn't seem

1:22:20 to have boring matches even when he's dominating people.

1:22:23 And so if, if you thought I put you on the spot a little bit ago, I'm going to put you

1:22:26 on the spot again.

1:22:27 I want you to tell me freestyle, which American men are coming back with gold medals?

1:22:34 Which American men are coming back with gold medals?

1:22:39 Let's say, I've already said Jaden.

1:22:46 If it comes down to a match with JBM, my man from Russia, JB's going to get him this time.

1:22:50 Okay.

1:22:51 Like I said, all this, all this depends on draws.

1:22:52 Everybody's got to remember in the Olympic trials, it's a blind draw.

1:22:56 You could have two world champs and Cox could be in the first round.

1:23:01 They could, they could, they could wrestle first round.

1:23:03 You could have two world champs, two formal Olympic gold medals, Russell first round.

1:23:08 So who knows?

1:23:11 You know, there's so many other weights out there.

1:23:14 You know, if, if, if, if J.O. qualifies, he's got a potential, you know, as well.

1:23:21 25 is so deep, I don't know.

1:23:27 I don't know.

1:23:28 It's fun watching you score.

1:23:29 I just got to be honest.

1:23:30 It's hard.

1:23:31 Well, it's hard because you just don't, I mean, all these matches, that's the thing.

1:23:35 All these matches that we're talking about right now, they're going to be one, two point

1:23:40 matches, if not two, two matches and somebody wins on criteria, you know, you, you, you train

1:23:47 your whole life for the, for this opportunity and it's six minutes.

1:23:56 And sometimes the ball is going to bounce your way and sometimes it's not going to bounce

1:24:00 your way.

1:24:01 And sometimes the better wrestler will not win that match.

1:24:05 So that's what makes it so hard to try to predict that part in, you know, I got a lot

1:24:11 of estate boys out there scrapping.

1:24:12 So you know, I'm biased in that sense.

1:24:15 Well, I mean, guys, just make sure if you've got any way, I think it's going to be showed

1:24:18 on on flow wrestling, but make sure you can watch the US trials there at the beginning

1:24:22 of April.

1:24:23 And then you got the, the summer games this summer, but we're going to put a bow on that

1:24:27 and we're going to move on to your coaching career.

1:24:28 So you've made a lot of references to your coaching career.

1:24:31 So after you got done, you even admittedly kind of accidentally got into coaching a little

1:24:37 bit of the youth wrestling, but you've, you've done the Edmund General.

1:24:40 So Edmund Oklahoma, which is where we're recording this is, which is where we both live right

1:24:43 now, the Edmund Generals is a nationally known, they were nationally known private wrestling

1:24:48 team and wrestling club and then you have Oklahoma Wrestling Academy.

1:24:53 So that's OWA.

1:24:54 And that's, that's known nationwide as well and incredibly impressive and competitive

1:24:59 club that you have.

1:25:00 So kind of give us an idea of how you got into club wrestling, you know, how do you go from

1:25:04 being an Oklahoma, because there's a lot of guys that used to wrestle that are all Americans

1:25:08 that don't coach, don't coach anybody, they don't even coach their kids.

1:25:10 So how do you go from doing that to 20 plus years of doing youth wrestling coaching?

1:25:15 Well, when I, when I got out of college and moved up to Oklahoma City, at that point in

1:25:21 the time there was a program, Edmund Generals already going, I think it was only a couple

1:25:25 of years in existence.

1:25:26 And at that point in time, there was four other guys and I was the only guy not married.

1:25:31 So I took the, you got the short straw, got the short straw and I took the head coaching

1:25:35 role there and the, within the first couple of months, I didn't want to do it anymore.

1:25:45 And the reason why I was just graduate, I just graduated from college.

1:25:49 So my mentality was a lot different.

1:25:51 I'm teaching four and five year old kids that have never wrestled a day in their life,

1:25:57 square stance, stagger stance, motion, and they weren't getting into that point in time.

1:26:01 I'm still a kid myself.

1:26:03 So needless to say, my coaching skills were not very good when I first started.

1:26:07 Well, I came back after Christmas, I stuck with it and everything that we've been working

1:26:12 on throughout the year, they finally start catching on to it, you know, middle part of

1:26:17 the year and definitely by the end of the year for regionals in state.

1:26:21 So that was my first year under my belt.

1:26:22 And we ran Edmund Generals out of, out of the UCO wrestling room and also out of the

1:26:27 Edmund North High School wrestling room for those 14 years.

1:26:31 So that was my first encounter and I, I sucked my first couple of years as a coach and especially

1:26:36 with the youth because it's, it's so different.

1:26:39 And not only with that and especially with wrestling is so different in its own entity,

1:26:44 like it's not football, it's not soccer, it's not basketball, as we all know, it's,

1:26:49 it's combat and it's totally different.

1:26:51 And not only am I educating the kids, I'm educating some of the parents that have never

1:26:55 seen it, right?

1:26:57 And understanding that your son will have a nosebleed, he will get his face shoved in

1:27:01 the mat.

1:27:02 He will bend in a way that he's not supposed to, he will, he's going to cry, right?

1:27:07 Let him cry.

1:27:08 Let him toughen up.

1:27:09 They'll be all right.

1:27:10 They'll live, right?

1:27:11 So it was a lot of that and that still goes on to this day.

1:27:13 So we did, I did that for 14 years and had been enjoying it every since.

1:27:19 So these last few years, which is coming up, will be my, like I said, my 21st year, a

1:27:24 couple of guys came to me and we started the, they were talking about doing a year round

1:27:27 wrestling program in the state of Oklahoma.

1:27:30 And nine, my, my, I myself was a little bit suspect because there's, it's, there's never

1:27:36 been one and so on and so forth.

1:27:37 So anyway, we started OWA and it was kind of a toss up before because we still had the

1:27:44 brand admin generals, but we were starting to incorporate OWA into the mix too and kind

1:27:49 of spread the word and network and tell people what OWA was, well that first year when we

1:27:55 moved into, it was a dollar general, we moved into a dollar general, had two 42 by 42 mats

1:28:02 and that was our spot, but I still had the admin general brand because I was selfish

1:28:07 and didn't want to let that go yet.

1:28:09 Had parents kind of get confused a little bit.

1:28:11 What is what?

1:28:12 So we eventually kind of basically just said, okay, no more admin generals.

1:28:15 It's all OWA and OWA is a nonprofit 501C3.

1:28:22 Like I said before, everybody that is involved with OWA is a volunteer and I just happened

1:28:29 to be the head coach of it, but man, there's so much work behind the scenes that goes on

1:28:35 that I'd be a fool to sit here and try to take all that credit.

1:28:40 One of my hashtags is it takes a village and I got a lot of volunteer parents.

1:28:44 I got a lot of volunteer coaches that put in time.

1:28:47 We have a management board.

1:28:48 We got a 15 person board like it's work, right?

1:28:54 But there's a big cause why we do it and it's for these kids.

1:28:57 So we've been running OWA for the last seven years.

1:28:59 We were in that dollar general for five.

1:29:01 We've moved to a new location in Oklahoma City for the past two years coming up on three

1:29:06 and it's just continuing to grow and the big thing is, you know, we're, yeah, we want,

1:29:11 you know, state champs, high school, all this good stuff, everything, but what are you going

1:29:16 to do when you're done?

1:29:17 What type of person are you going to be when you've finished wrestling?

1:29:20 Yeah.

1:29:21 That's the key.

1:29:22 And we're not only teaching, like I said, you know, we're not teaching for two years

1:29:25 down the line or three years down the line.

1:29:27 We're teaching for 10, 15, 20 years down the line when they become an adult and have to

1:29:31 provide for their own family and when wrestling's done, what education are you going to fall

1:29:35 back on?

1:29:36 Right?

1:29:37 Like I said, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

1:29:39 So that's kind of, I hope that explained it well enough of kind of what Edmund General

1:29:42 was, what OWA is, what OWA is about, you know, we got four core values that we talk about.

1:29:48 It's positivity, integrity, humility, which you've heard me talk about before and hard

1:29:54 work.

1:29:55 Those are our core values.

1:29:56 And you know, we're going to have our awards bank, but actually with this Wednesday and

1:30:00 we have kids that will receive those core value awards because they're extremely important

1:30:04 to us.

1:30:05 And those core values also transfer to the parents.

1:30:10 We want them to follow those core values just as much as our kids do.

1:30:14 Well, that's, that's really the next point that I wanted to get into is if you've coached

1:30:18 for a year or two, you can't really see trends, but you've coached for multiple decades at

1:30:23 this point.

1:30:24 And so you've been able to see some adjustments.

1:30:26 You've been able to coach kids from, from multiple different generations.

1:30:30 So you had millennials and now you're getting into Gen Z and whatever the next crop of kids

1:30:33 is going to be called.

1:30:34 And so I want to kind of get a sense from you as to how have you seen parents change

1:30:39 over the last 20 years?

1:30:40 How have you seen the kids change over the last 20 years?

1:30:44 Because again, this is a different sport.

1:30:46 This is not golf.

1:30:47 Like this is very different, but certain things don't change.

1:30:49 But what if any changes have you seen to parents and kids over these last 20 years of being

1:30:54 a coach?

1:30:55 Well, you know, sometimes, especially in youth, sometimes the biggest problem in youth and

1:30:59 any youth coach can attest to this is the parents and all the respect, right?

1:31:04 That's sometimes the biggest problems.

1:31:07 That's why we talk about those corporate.

1:31:08 We actually even have a parent contract where we're at, right?

1:31:12 Because we want our parents to know, even if you're at a tournament by yourself coaching

1:31:17 your kid and you have on, you have on an OWA brand, an OWA shirt, an OWA singlet, or

1:31:22 people know your kid wrestles for an OWA, carry yourself the right way.

1:31:28 And it's wrestling is a different beast for mom and/or dad because, like I said, it's

1:31:34 mono, a mono, there's nobody else out there.

1:31:37 So don't let your emotions get involved in that match.

1:31:43 It's a wrestling match and it's literally, it's not the national championship.

1:31:47 They're not giving away scholarships.

1:31:50 If they win, great.

1:31:51 If they lose, great.

1:31:53 Go love on them and tell them great job, right?

1:31:56 I tell my parents, I'm not concerned with wins and losses.

1:32:00 Don't give two nannies about wins and losses right now.

1:32:04 I mentioned this earlier, attitude and effort are the two things that our kids can't control.

1:32:12 They can control how they act after they win or lose, more importantly after they lose,

1:32:17 and they can control their effort, leave it all out there on the mat.

1:32:21 That's it.

1:32:22 All that other stuff will take care of itself later down the line.

1:32:26 So you see parents some nowadays kind of overreact a little bit more than kind of back

1:32:33 in the day.

1:32:36 You see some kids not as tough anymore as in back in the day and you've seen these different

1:32:43 things like parents, let your kids be coached, let them be coached, okay?

1:32:48 I coached my son in wrestling.

1:32:50 He started, he started flag football.

1:32:52 I helped out there, but I like watching him just go compete, but also I've learned how

1:32:58 to coach my son because I've seen other parents make those mistakes.

1:33:03 I don't live through my son.

1:33:04 I want him to create his own little path.

1:33:06 Whatever path that may be wrestling for, I don't know, whatever it may be.

1:33:11 I want him to know I love him and you go try your hardest and let's see what happens.

1:33:15 Well the good thing about your perspective on that is obviously it's well worn because

1:33:18 you've had to deal with that for a long time, but you didn't know this was happening, but

1:33:21 I was at a tournament a couple of months ago here in Oklahoma City, big tournament down

1:33:26 at the fairgrounds and I was informed about a little bit of a drama about this match where

1:33:31 there was this kid whose dad had pulled him out of OWA because they had some problems with

1:33:36 some of the parents, had some problems with you or whatever and there was a lot of people

1:33:39 kind of gathering around this mat to watch these two kids that were like nine years old

1:33:43 or something like that get after it.

1:33:45 And the thing that I noticed is your wrestler, the OWA wrestler, who won by the way, your

1:33:50 wrestler was listening to you and when you would give out some sort of a coaching tip

1:33:55 or something like that, he would implement that immediately.

1:33:58 But the other thing that I noticed is the dad of the other wrestler, right?

1:34:03 So not the OWA wrestler, he was screaming over the coach and you could tell kind of by looking

1:34:09 at the guy that's a little bit presumptive, but then you could also tell by the things

1:34:12 he was saying out loud, this guy didn't know Jack about wrestling and he just didn't.

1:34:17 He knew how to yell and he knew how to get things done.

1:34:19 He probably does well in business, probably has an okay work life, whatever the situation

1:34:23 was.

1:34:24 And it was just such an interesting dichotomy because regardless of who won that match,

1:34:27 you got to see a parent that was getting on a kid that didn't know what he was actually

1:34:32 getting on the kid for.

1:34:33 And the coach was, you know, he kind of got a little bit beta there for a little bit letting

1:34:37 this dad yell over him.

1:34:40 And I remember, you know, talking with some of the people that were watching, we thought

1:34:43 this dad was going to get physical with his kid after he lost, right?

1:34:47 Because his kid didn't do what he was supposed to and didn't do all these different things.

1:34:50 And so there was, I've talked about this on the podcast before, there was a small group

1:34:53 of people kind of following this dad around for the next five, 10 minutes to make sure he

1:34:57 didn't get getting his kid, you know, you know, getting his face like at this, at this

1:35:01 tournament or whatever.

1:35:02 But for you, when you have a situation like that come up, number one, how do you keep

1:35:07 your cool?

1:35:08 Because that's one of those situations where this, this is kind of almost bigger than the

1:35:12 two kids that are out there on the mat at that point, because you're almost concerned

1:35:15 for that kid and what the home life looks like.

1:35:18 But also even on your team, when you have parents that are getting out over their skis

1:35:22 that are not national, you know, national finalists, they're not people that have wrestled

1:35:27 in any way, shape or form, they're just dutiful parents and then what their kids do well.

1:35:31 How do you regulate that?

1:35:33 Because in the world we live in right now, the parents are on the side of the kid, right?

1:35:37 So if they get in trouble at school, it's got to be the teacher's fault, right?

1:35:40 If they get in trouble at football practice, it's got to be the guy at the whistle's fault,

1:35:44 right?

1:35:45 How do you deal with that in this modern era where the kids and the parents are seemingly

1:35:48 the victims?

1:35:49 Well, you know, that's a great question and, you know, I've done this before and I've talked

1:35:56 to some of the younger coaches now that are doing the youth and I've seen this and you

1:36:00 know what I've done?

1:36:02 I've got up and I've walked out of the chair and, you know, and when that parent comes

1:36:09 and asks me, I will kindly tell them why I did what I did, right?

1:36:14 I'm not trying to blow my chest up or puff my chest out or anything but it's one of those

1:36:22 things to where that parent has to understand and learn, right?

1:36:27 Because sometimes they have, it's like we tell our kids, sometimes you have to learn

1:36:33 what this process is but you have to go through it first.

1:36:36 I can talk to you about it all day, but until you go through it and realize what I'm talking

1:36:41 about and that's, I've had that situation, right, where I'm sitting there coaching the

1:36:45 kid and I don't do respect.

1:36:47 I don't mind if the dad is down there or mom for that matter, right?

1:36:52 I don't mind that.

1:36:53 This is your child.

1:36:54 You have made this, this, this baby.

1:36:56 This is yours.

1:36:57 I understand that part but while this match is going on and I'm coaching or any of my

1:37:02 other coaches with a lot of knowledge, let them coach.

1:37:07 You be the parent there, let them coach because especially if you never strapped on a pair

1:37:11 of wrestling shoes, you don't know what it's like and those sometimes are usually your

1:37:15 worst ones and those are the ones that you have to teach and hold their hand a little

1:37:20 bit more.

1:37:22 I've been in it long enough.

1:37:24 I don't overreact because once again, our core values, I'm the leader of the group, right?

1:37:28 I want to do a certain standard, okay?

1:37:31 But I've got them walked away and when I come and ask me, I've told them exactly why

1:37:34 I got up and walked away and I said, hey, if you want to sit down here with me, I don't

1:37:37 mind.

1:37:38 You sit down here with me.

1:37:39 My brother, I told my brother the same thing, yeah, what I yelled just yell with me, okay?

1:37:45 My brother, my oldest brother never rustled.

1:37:47 So when my nephew was with wrestling, he put his earphones in and he would just kind of

1:37:50 be quiet and he'd move in the chair, right?

1:37:53 But I've had that.

1:37:55 I'm not trying to get physical with you.

1:37:57 I don't need to raise my voice with you because I don't do it that much with my, I'm not,

1:38:01 that's not my MO.

1:38:02 I'm at a little league wrestling tournament trying to invest in this young man and/or

1:38:05 woman.

1:38:06 So to have that process and to have that happen, you get up, you walk away.

1:38:11 Get up, walk away and you want your kid to win and if he wins, great and if something

1:38:16 goes wrong, you know, amen, you were, you were, you wouldn't let me do what I was, what I'm

1:38:21 trying to do here, okay?

1:38:22 I'm going to put him in the right situation, yell with me, encourage him, right?

1:38:27 Encourage him.

1:38:28 If you don't know exactly what you want to say, just encourage him.

1:38:31 Let me do the coaching.

1:38:32 You encourage, right?

1:38:35 You get some, we have, like I said, we've been, in all due respect, we have been blessed.

1:38:40 We have been blessed and I think it's because us as coaches, we set that standard up front

1:38:45 and now it's become known that we know what we're talking about a little bit, right?

1:38:51 But also there's a certain cold that you live by and cold that you do at these tournaments.

1:38:56 No need to get all up in arms, man.

1:38:58 No need to get all up in arms and act a fool when your child after the match is over with

1:39:04 shakes hand and walks off and acts more than adult than you do.

1:39:08 Because kids, they let it go like that.

1:39:11 Some of these adults that have never wrestled a day in their life, whether they're kicking

1:39:15 a trash can, I've seen guys throw their cell phone and you just had a little low weekend

1:39:19 tournament.

1:39:20 Yep.

1:39:21 Right?

1:39:22 You had a little weekend tournament.

1:39:25 You know, they got to grow up and I've, I've, I've, like I said, I've had that done.

1:39:28 I have not had that happen and probably in all honesty, 10 years, because, and, and if

1:39:36 I have a parent that is like that and it's like, hard, ill, I just think I make him nervous.

1:39:40 Like, no, man, step, sit back then.

1:39:42 Or we have some parents be like, if we have a coach there and a dad there, we'll be like,

1:39:48 you want to go?

1:39:49 Do you want to go?

1:39:50 No, man, y'all go.

1:39:51 Okay.

1:39:52 We'll go get him.

1:39:53 Right?

1:39:54 And I'll ask.

1:39:55 And I think that also helps the process out.

1:39:56 And they understand there's guidelines in that corner, if I guess if that makes sense.

1:40:00 Because if I didn't know anything about wrestling and I got somebody and all these other coaches

1:40:04 that know a lot, cause we got a lot of knowledge in our room that knows some stuff, I want

1:40:08 them to coach them.

1:40:09 I want them to lead them in the right direction.

1:40:12 You know, that's where I think I've learned how to balance that.

1:40:19 Don't get me wrong.

1:40:20 Maddox is still is eight years old.

1:40:23 But I also, I don't put any pressure on my son.

1:40:26 I don't want my son to feel pressure.

1:40:29 I don't want him to think he has to live up to, man, go, go compete son, go wrestle.

1:40:35 I don't talk to him much before he wrestles.

1:40:38 Right?

1:40:39 You know, it's, I've learned that though.

1:40:41 I've learned that just from over the period of time of, you know, before I was a father.

1:40:47 Right?

1:40:48 And seeing man, he's kind of pushing him too hard.

1:40:50 And I've told some parents, like he's up a little bit, man, like you're going, it'd be

1:40:53 all right.

1:40:54 He was hard.

1:40:55 He does what he's supposed to do.

1:40:56 He listens.

1:40:57 He's doing good in school.

1:40:58 Right?

1:40:59 Find a positive out of that.

1:41:00 But yeah, to answer that, like what I did before, you just sometimes just got to get

1:41:03 up and walk away.

1:41:04 You handle a dad, you know, you handle it.

1:41:06 I'll talk to you after the match is over.

1:41:08 Yeah, sure.

1:41:09 You give me your read of what happened in this match with all your levels of understanding.

1:41:13 Yeah.

1:41:14 Because when kids see that and you know, they think dad is mad at me.

1:41:20 That's what they think.

1:41:22 But dad's thinking, I'm just trying to help you, but it's coming off the wrong way.

1:41:26 Right.

1:41:27 Right.

1:41:28 I mean, it's, it's a, it's a balance that you got to have.

1:41:30 It is a balance that you got to have and it's kind of, it's, it's kind of a gift, you know.

1:41:34 Well, I've talked about this on, on a podcast where I was talking about, you know, becoming

1:41:37 a father and, and what that's going to look like.

1:41:40 And I, I kind of already know what type of dad I'm going to be and what I'm not going

1:41:43 to be.

1:41:44 I'm going to learn some stuff along the way.

1:41:45 But one of the things specifically with sports that I talked about is like, look, if, if

1:41:49 I didn't raise my hand and volunteer to coach, whether it's T ball or football or wrestling

1:41:55 or whatever the situation is, then that means someone else is my kids coach.

1:41:58 Someone else is going to be coaching baby Thompson, right?

1:42:01 That's what's going to happen.

1:42:02 Now the thing is, is when my son comes home and if there's something that I'd like to

1:42:06 show them or help them work on as well, I can do that.

1:42:09 But if that's in direct countervention to what the, the coach taught them, I just create

1:42:13 a little bit of a schism because now it's what dad told me to respect coach, but coach

1:42:18 is telling me to respect dad, but dad and coach are telling me two completely different

1:42:22 things.

1:42:23 And, and so that, that's part of the problem where it's like, if you didn't raise your hand,

1:42:26 if you're not in there, if you don't have the knowledge, then then just kind of let other

1:42:30 people come in and take care of business, because it's going to be to the benefit of

1:42:34 your child, but even, even further than that, I think we live in this era of specialization

1:42:38 now, where you've seen a lot of these parents that are like, okay, you got to pick a sport

1:42:42 for your kid when they're like two, and then you stick them with that sport, and they just

1:42:47 do that sport.

1:42:48 Why?

1:42:49 Because scholarships, because we have college, you know, tuition going up at 10 times a

1:42:53 rate of inflation or something like that.

1:42:56 And here they are thinking, well, I got to get this kid to be a national champion wrestler.

1:42:59 And if he's not looking good by the age of seven, it's just never going to quite work

1:43:03 out.

1:43:04 So for you, and then, then we'll, we'll kind of go into some other subjects, but for you,

1:43:08 do you feel like it's a benefit for a child as they're growing and developing?

1:43:12 So let's think, you know, early elementary school on into junior high to play a lot more

1:43:18 sports.

1:43:19 Do you like the idea of them specializing in something early?

1:43:22 Do you feel like it's even possible for them to know what bodily would be best for them

1:43:26 from a sports perspective?

1:43:27 What do you think about specialization?

1:43:29 I, uh, I'm not a fan.

1:43:31 I like, you know, I like for them to do different things personally, because it gets them out

1:43:37 of that box.

1:43:38 And there's no guarantee that you're going to accomplish everything in that one sport.

1:43:43 So why not let them experience some different things, you know, when they get to that certain

1:43:47 age of like junior high, right?

1:43:50 Where you got to almost choose, you know what I mean?

1:43:53 Just cause if they overlap or anything like that, okay, then you make that decision.

1:43:57 Yeah, you can't do a basketball wrestling.

1:43:59 That done.

1:44:00 While they're still young right now, let them experience the stuff, you know, and don't

1:44:03 get me wrong.

1:44:04 Some of them, they're going to experience some, a lot of the things that you did.

1:44:06 Some of them may do something different.

1:44:08 And I know there's some people that, that like the specialized stuff and kudos to them.

1:44:13 That's how they raise their child.

1:44:15 I'm not that child's father, but the way we do it in our household and even when I was

1:44:20 growing up, like me and my brothers, we all did multiple sports.

1:44:24 We all did multiple sports, right?

1:44:26 And I just think it, it, it made us well-rounded, right?

1:44:31 It made us well-rounded, you know, and especially whether you're doing a, like I said, football

1:44:35 team sport, wrestling still kind of, you're individual, but there is a team aspect, but

1:44:40 you're only concerned about yourself when you're out there wrestling.

1:44:43 So it made me well-rounded.

1:44:45 It made me understand that, you know, hey, I also have to lift teammates up in football.

1:44:50 I still got to lift teammates up in wrestling, right?

1:44:52 I won my rap match, but my buddy, my buddy lost.

1:44:55 So I had to go, go lift that guy up.

1:44:58 So that's my perspective.

1:45:00 I know everybody's different, different strokes for different folks and people are going to

1:45:04 do different things.

1:45:05 I just, I think it's good for them to experience different things because it just helps them

1:45:09 out in the long run.

1:45:10 And then when they get older, okay, these are my two sports that I'm going to do.

1:45:14 Sure.

1:45:15 I'm going to choose these two.

1:45:16 Well, and developmentally, we were talking about this.

1:45:17 I was talking about this one of the buddies I went to the Bedlam duel with, you know,

1:45:21 wrestlers, they learn explosion, you know, forward and back.

1:45:25 That's kind of their explosion, but like if you're a tennis player, your explosion is

1:45:28 left and right.

1:45:29 Right.

1:45:30 Like you need to be able to explode in all those different directions.

1:45:31 And so the thing is, and I think about this especially with baseball, because I grew up

1:45:34 playing baseball, but whenever I grew up, there wasn't year round baseball, right?

1:45:38 So you didn't have fall league baseball.

1:45:40 You just didn't have those things, but now you do.

1:45:42 And so you have these kids that, you know, they're 10 and they're, they're turning, they're

1:45:47 throwing curve balls and they're learning how to do these things that put a tremendous

1:45:50 amount of torque on their shoulder and elbow.

1:45:52 And then their parents are like, they're flabbergasted in high school whenever they have

1:45:56 to get shoulder surgery or elbow surgery or something like that.

1:45:59 That's like, well, their body had no time to recover.

1:46:02 They didn't have a basketball season to just kind of worry about the wear and tear of

1:46:05 basketball and maybe your knees and your ankles.

1:46:08 They didn't have, you know, a different sport.

1:46:10 They didn't have track and feel they didn't have anything else that they were doing to

1:46:12 where they could recover, but also learn some of those other ancillary skills.

1:46:15 But the thing that's so interesting about wrestling, and I said I was going to move on,

1:46:19 but I wanted to kind of go one more thing and add on daunted life.

1:46:22 We talk about spiritual, mental and physical resilience all the time.

1:46:26 And part of the thing about resilience is it's not strength because strength is its

1:46:29 own separate beast.

1:46:31 Resilience is the ability to bounce back because anybody can be strong mentally when

1:46:35 things are going really, really well.

1:46:36 But when you're in the middle of the storm, that's when you need the ability to bounce

1:46:40 back.

1:46:41 And so I personally having not wrestled at the level that you did and without any kids

1:46:45 that are currently in wrestling, hopefully you'll be coaching my son someday.

1:46:48 But without any of that happening, I feel like wrestling and jujitsu are the two sports

1:46:52 for kids that will teach them more about how to succeed in life because of the level

1:46:57 of resilience they have to have.

1:46:58 And specifically, I've got a guy out in Cash Oklahoma, so shout out to Chris Erzivi and

1:47:02 the Zersivi family that are listening to this.

1:47:04 They've got their kids in wrestling at a young age.

1:47:06 And I know to a large degree, because dad didn't wrestle, it's because they want their

1:47:10 kids to be tough regardless of if they're good at wrestling or not, they want their

1:47:14 kids to be tough.

1:47:15 So it is my summation of how important wrestling or grappling is to kids.

1:47:21 Is that accurate?

1:47:22 Do you agree with that?

1:47:23 Where would you go with that?

1:47:25 Every kid should wrestle.

1:47:26 Okay.

1:47:28 Every kid should wrestle.

1:47:30 It's.

1:47:31 So why from your perspective, having seen it for so it's unlike any other.

1:47:35 It's it teaches the kid we've talked about the core values.

1:47:40 We've talked about getting back up on that horse and riding again.

1:47:44 We've talked about toughness.

1:47:45 We talked about mental toughness.

1:47:47 We talked about heart.

1:47:48 We've talked about all of that stuff.

1:47:51 I've had kids that have come into our program that were extremely shy by the time the season

1:47:56 was over with, totally different kid.

1:47:58 I have kids that come in that either had whether anger problems or not doing good in

1:48:02 school or not much structure at school or maybe even at home by the end of the season

1:48:07 or another year, totally different, right?

1:48:10 And that's one of the big key things that we talk about in our program and that I love

1:48:15 the sea, right?

1:48:17 Whether it's a kid sticking up for another kid that's being bullied, whether it's a kid

1:48:21 that was making all D's now all A's, whether it's a kid that was never would go out for

1:48:27 a lead play, but now is the star of the place, different things like that.

1:48:33 And more important.

1:48:34 Not only does it teach the kids something and I tell them this, it teaches the parents

1:48:39 something about themselves, right?

1:48:42 It teaches them they also need to learn how to control their emotions because if you put

1:48:47 a camera on some of these parents when their kid is wrestling and maybe some of the things

1:48:53 that come out of their mouth, they'd be totally shocked, totally shocked, but then turn, you're

1:48:59 trying to tell your son to act this way, but you've acted this way, right?

1:49:05 There is nothing like the sport of wrestling, period point blank.

1:49:11 Unless it gets into your DNA, it's hard to get out, right?

1:49:16 It's contagious.

1:49:19 And regardless if you do it for a long period of time or short period of time or five or

1:49:24 six years, maybe not wrestled in high school, you have it.

1:49:29 And when you wrestle nine times out of 10, the wrestlers usually are your best athletes

1:49:35 on the team, whatever team that may be, right?

1:49:39 Because they have it here, they have it upstairs, they have it in their heart because they're

1:49:44 used to that one-on-one combat.

1:49:47 Grappling legit same type of deal, you're used to that, there's nobody else out there.

1:49:51 You got tapped out, not Johnny that didn't get, not him, is you.

1:49:57 You got beat.

1:49:58 You got taken down.

1:49:59 You gave up that take down with 10 seconds left, right, in the state championship because

1:50:03 you were stalling and not wrestling or whatever the case may be.

1:50:08 So am I biased, yes, but I think every kid should wrestle.

1:50:15 Girl or boy?

1:50:16 Because girls, women's wrestling is blowing up.

1:50:19 I mean, we had the first women's state championship or exhibition because it wasn't sanctioned

1:50:24 down at the fairgrounds this past weekend.

1:50:26 We have 313 girls registered to wrestle, right?

1:50:31 So it's just, I could go on and on about that wrestling.

1:50:35 It's awesome.

1:50:36 There's so many values, so many characteristics.

1:50:41 What life is about because the world we live in is crazy and to have that wrestling to

1:50:49 fall back on, going through tough times, whether it's socially, academically, whatever the

1:50:54 case.

1:50:55 You can push through, man, because, you know, like Dan Gable said back in the day, once

1:50:59 you've wrestled, everything else is easy, man.

1:51:01 Like it's crazy.

1:51:02 It is crazy.

1:51:03 And these kids don't get it now.

1:51:05 It's like I didn't get it now when I was starting to wrestle.

1:51:08 But the older you get, the more you're like, you know what, this is such a blessing to

1:51:13 have this.

1:51:14 And you don't have to be a state champ.

1:51:16 You don't have to be an all-American.

1:51:17 You don't have to be a national champion, right?

1:51:21 But more than likely, you're still going to be successful in the real world if you have

1:51:27 that in your back pocket as far as wrestling goes.

1:51:29 And that's my opinion.

1:51:30 I know some people that do other sports and there's other sports that has great core

1:51:33 values as well, but we're specifically talking about the sport that I know and love.

1:51:38 Well, if you've got, if you've got a wrestler that's made it through high school, let's

1:51:42 just say they wrestled through their senior year, but especially if they've gone to college,

1:51:45 they found the quit inside of them at some point.

1:51:50 And then they just pushed that aside and kept going.

1:51:54 That may have happened earlier in their wrestling career.

1:51:56 Maybe it was when they got to the university that they went to, maybe that's whenever they

1:52:00 found quit inside of them, and then they just pushed it aside.

1:52:03 That's the interesting thing about wrestlers because there's a UCO wrestler that is part

1:52:06 of my foxhole, so part of the guys that know me and I know them, his name's Shelby Bullard.

1:52:11 And he's one of those guys where I've talked about on the podcast before.

1:52:14 My goal every Sunday night is to make him look uncomfortable because I leave my guys

1:52:17 through a workout.

1:52:18 I try to make it especially brutal because if we're going to work out, we might as well

1:52:21 work out hard.

1:52:22 And that's the thing is he finally just looked at me one day and says, "Kyle, it's never

1:52:25 going to happen."

1:52:26 And so he just goes to that place in his brain, that place where it's like, "This is nothing.

1:52:32 Kyle thinks that this is hard.

1:52:34 Kyle doesn't know what hard is because I went through the gauntlet in the UCO wrestling

1:52:39 room that none of the people in this room even understand."

1:52:42 And the other thing about wrestlers is they don't seem to be the guys that are pounding

1:52:46 their chests, talking about all the accolades from back in the day.

1:52:49 Sure, you got the guys that are talking about how many guys they took down, how many fights

1:52:53 they got in and all that.

1:52:54 That's fine and good for them, I guess.

1:52:56 But that's the thing about wrestlers that whenever I think about my son, I told you this

1:52:59 off air and I'm going to say it on air because I want people to know this, when I opened

1:53:02 up the email that said that we were having a boy, both my wife and I thought we were

1:53:06 having a girl.

1:53:07 We knew that.

1:53:08 One of the first thoughts, one of the first ones, I don't know if this is appropriate

1:53:11 or inappropriate, was awesome.

1:53:14 I'm going to have a kid that's going to be coached by Hardell Moore because it's like

1:53:17 you're in my community where we're actually neighbors for those of you that don't know.

1:53:21 We live in the same community, but it's just like you look at those opportunities and I'm

1:53:25 like, above everything else, like I want my kid to be smart.

1:53:28 I want my kid to be a good lover of women and of his friends and to be able to be a

1:53:37 good servant.

1:53:38 I want all those things for him, but above everything else, I want this kid to be resilient.

1:53:41 I want him to be tough because no matter what situation comes to him in life, that is going

1:53:47 to serve him well because whether it's a professor that just doesn't like him, doesn't like the

1:53:51 way that he thinks and they just want to make this an example out of this kid, hey, it's

1:53:55 going to be no big deal, whether they're going through marital problems, whether they suffer

1:53:58 a death of a family friend or something like that, whenever it's not expected.

1:54:03 There are things that you can put on a hierarchy of suckiness and wrestling's almost always

1:54:07 at the top of hierarchy of suckiness because it's a grind every single day.

1:54:12 And so that's the thing that I feel like I respect most about wrestlers and the people

1:54:15 that train in those types of things at such an early age.

1:54:18 And that's where we see even things like Jiu Jitsu now, they're becoming incredibly

1:54:22 unpopular for kids, whereas back in the 80s and 90s, it was karate.

1:54:26 And you know, people, it took them a while to realize that's not like a real fighting

1:54:28 style.

1:54:29 It's not super effective, but it's like it was, it just gave the kids something to do.

1:54:32 But now if they're doing grappling at that young age, again, like you said, the lessons

1:54:37 that they're learning, it's, it's easy for you and I to sit back and kind of be romantic

1:54:41 about it.

1:54:42 But it's so real for them and it's just like, dude, this is a seed that's been planted.

1:54:46 That's not going to sprout for a really, really long time, but it's going to be awesome once

1:54:49 it does.

1:54:50 It's life lessons.

1:54:52 Sure.

1:54:53 Yeah.

1:54:54 That's exactly what it is.

1:54:55 It's life lessons, you know, there's a, you know, you talking about being tough and everything,

1:54:59 you know, being Okey State, man, cowboy up, you got to get up.

1:55:03 You got to get up, man.

1:55:04 You got it.

1:55:05 You got to bounce back because no one's going to hand you anything, right?

1:55:10 You have to go earn it.

1:55:13 And like I said, I've, I've had, I've had great comments from parents and just how it's,

1:55:20 how the parents have changed, what they, what they have seen their child do, like how much

1:55:24 they've seen their child grow through a season of wrestling and how that has helped mold

1:55:30 that young man or young woman, you know, for the future.

1:55:33 That's the key.

1:55:34 Absolutely.

1:55:35 And so, um, a lot of great stuff there.

1:55:37 So I know the parents listening to this really got a lot out of that because guys, if you

1:55:41 don't understand, you're listening to one of the great coaching minds in any sport, in

1:55:45 any area, I truly believe that.

1:55:46 But one thing that we've talked about that's really worked, worked its way into the wrestling

1:55:51 community is mixed martial arts.

1:55:52 We've mentioned that.

1:55:53 We've mentioned some mixed martial arts fighters.

1:55:55 And so the thing that's so fun about watching this sport evolve because I remember my dad

1:56:00 taking me to Hastings to rent UFC one and UFC two and we're like, who's this guy in

1:56:04 these pajamas beating up all these big biker looking dudes?

1:56:07 What is what's going on?

1:56:08 And so you get to see what works and what doesn't.

1:56:10 But obviously if any guys wrestled at the level that you wrestle that, you probably at least

1:56:15 thought about it.

1:56:16 Like again, MMA wasn't as big whenever you were getting done with your wrestling career.

1:56:21 But if you could look back, you know, if we're in the, if we're in today's era of MMA,

1:56:25 but it was back when you were finished up wrestling, do you think you would have been

1:56:29 at least interested in putting some gloves on and throwing hands like, what did, would

1:56:33 there be any appeal to that for you?

1:56:35 I would have had to fight my mama first and she, oh, come on, mama like a mama more would

1:56:39 have liked it.

1:56:40 Mama more wouldn't know.

1:56:41 She wasn't no joke, man.

1:56:42 She raised three boys.

1:56:43 You know, it was a thought, but that's all it was.

1:56:47 It was a thought, you know, I, I, I, that wasn't the way I wanted to go.

1:56:53 And like I said, that's all it was was a thought, you know, and after that, I moved

1:56:58 on and went on with my career, you know, so, but kudos to everybody that's, that's done

1:57:03 that and, and continue to, you know, make strides in doing that.

1:57:07 You know, now, like I said, it's on a, it's on a way bigger platform than what it was

1:57:10 back in the day.

1:57:11 So, but like I said, it was a thought and we skipped on past that and kept on moving.

1:57:15 Well, that's one of the cool things is when you see these big time wrestlers like a Kyle

1:57:18 Snyder or a bow nickel, the question is always, okay, so when are you going to make that transition?

1:57:22 When are you going to go pro and become an MMA fighter and they both talked openly about

1:57:26 it, but nickel probably more than Kyle Snyder has, but I think, I think you would agree

1:57:30 with this.

1:57:31 So I'm not going to ask you, is wrestling the best base when it comes to mixed martial arts?

1:57:35 Because when we look at the champions within mixed martial arts, the overwhelming majority

1:57:39 of the champions right now and really at any time, they are, they are mainly wrestlers.

1:57:42 So I'll actually go down to list right now of the current UFC champion.

1:57:45 So at heavyweight, you got steep a so wrestling base, light heavyweight, you got John Jones

1:57:49 wrestling base middleweight 85.

1:57:51 That's Israel out of Sonia.

1:57:52 So he's more of a striker and no wrestling, but welterweight, you got Kamara Usman.

1:57:56 So that's another wrestler.

1:57:58 Lightweight, you got Habib Nurmagomedov.

1:58:00 That's a different kind of wrestling, but it's certainly wrestling featherweight.

1:58:02 You got Alexander Volganovski, more of a rugby base, but that guy has a very, very wrestling

1:58:07 heavy style, Henry Sehudo, down at Banhamweight, obviously, this is, you know, he calls himself

1:58:12 triple C, but Olympic gold medalist and then he was a two, two division champion and then

1:58:16 you have the vacant flyweight title, but the previous champions have been wrestling heavy.

1:58:20 Wrestling seems to be that one skill that you can dictate where the fight's going to

1:58:24 go.

1:58:25 But the question I have for you is of the other popular MMA mediums, right?

1:58:30 So you got to talk about jujitsu, Muay Thai, Western boxing, kickboxing, judo, which since

1:58:35 you watch a lot of MMA, what do you feel like is kind of that next best thing that if you're

1:58:39 going to be an MMA fighter, a successful MMA fighter, I think we can all agree that wrestling

1:58:43 has to be the base, but what is that next most important skill?

1:58:47 I think it's boxing, you know, in my personal opinion, you know, just because you've got

1:58:53 to be able to handle yourself on your feet, you know, in my two cents and then, you know,

1:58:57 wrestling base, once you do get stumbled a little bit or have a guy walk with a little

1:59:00 bit, well, you're obviously going to take that person down to the ground more your home

1:59:03 base. So, you know, that's probably one of the biggest things for anybody to get used

1:59:08 to is getting punched in the mouth, punched in the face, right? And understanding how

1:59:13 to absorb that, right? You know, moving right and left, so on and so forth. So I wish I

1:59:20 would have boxed a little bit more when I was younger, but I didn't. But I think, you

1:59:23 know, the boxing part is probably is another big aspect of that, just because, of course,

1:59:29 that's where every fight starts, right? Is right on your feet. So learning how to put

1:59:34 those combinations together. And then if you got a strong wrestling background, I think

1:59:39 that's just a bigger, bigger asset as well. Absolutely. So the thing that you and I've

1:59:44 talked a lot about off air is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. The thing is, I've still yet to convince

1:59:51 you and I'm pretty good at sales to put a key on and get on the mat in your danger pajamas

1:59:56 and get after it. So what is your big reason? We got a lot of people that listen here in

2:00:01 the Oklahoma City area that know, which Jim, I'm talking about the forge down in the middle

2:00:06 of Edmond, Oklahoma, they need Hard L more to put on some of those PJs and get in there

2:00:10 and roll. What do you say? Not get me in the game. I mean, hey, we got no key. That's

2:00:15 pretty much wrestling. But why, why can't we get you in the game? I like the game. Even

2:00:19 now when I'm asking you right now, put all this pressure on. There's no pressure. No,

2:00:23 I'm putting the key on. Okay. So what is your, what is the deal? Why, why can't we get you

2:00:28 with the key on? I don't like the key. Have you had it on before? I've had it on before.

2:00:31 Okay. Well, what did you like about it? You can just grab everywhere and joke me without

2:00:35 having anything. Right. So it's like getting in the fight with clothes on. No, I like the

2:00:38 key. Not a fan. Next question. Well, I mean, just to stay on that question for a little

2:00:43 bit longer. Can we say, would it be fair for me to say here I am going in my cell psychology

2:00:49 language? Would it be fair to say that you haven't given it enough of a try to be able

2:00:53 to fully evaluate whether or not it would be an effective thing for you to continue training?

2:00:59 Not going to be effective for me. And come on. All right. Fine. We will go to the next

2:01:02 question. You bum fight. But one of these days, I promise, and I will post the picture

2:01:05 on our Instagram. I'm getting you in a key. We're getting you in the competition class.

2:01:09 But so with the kind of staying with MMA, we've got a couple of really huge fights coming

2:01:13 up here in the world of MMA. And I want to talk about two specifically because these

2:01:17 are fights that one was a fight that no one really saw coming. And the other fight is

2:01:20 one that's been booked so many times. But they're actually this Saturday of the recording

2:01:24 of this on a March 7th is UFC 248 in the main event is Israel, Adasanya, who's 185 pound

2:01:29 champion versus Joelle Romero. Now, for Joelle Romero, he's actually coming off of a loss.

2:01:34 He lost Apollo Costa in a very, very controversial decision. I actually scored it for Joelle Romero,

2:01:39 but Joelle Romero is the boogeyman of the 185 pound division. Guys will fight him, but

2:01:44 no one's saying his name, but Israel, Adasanya, who just dismantled Robert Whitaker in Australia,

2:01:50 not that long ago, he's kind of on this meteoric rise. You know, he's beat Anderson Silva.

2:01:56 You know, he's had these incredible fights. He actually called out Joelle Romero, which

2:02:01 was really, really interesting. But the reason why Israel, Adasanya, called out Joelle Romero

2:02:06 is exactly the reason I said earlier. He said it's because nobody says the man's name.

2:02:10 Right. And he's like, that's a guy, he's a 42 year old Cuban freak beast type of a guy.

2:02:15 Like he just doesn't make sense of things he's able to do with his body. But he said,

2:02:19 he didn't feel like his legacy would be complete if he didn't beat Joelle Romero, because Joelle

2:02:24 Romero, he might fight until he's 60 years old, but at some point he's going to lose

2:02:27 a step or two. I'm not totally convinced of that, but I'm assuming father time is going

2:02:31 to come for Joelle Romero as well. Eventually. Yeah, eventually. But for you, as you're kind

2:02:35 of looking forward to this fight, you've watched both of them fight quite a bit. Obviously,

2:02:38 you've known Joelle Romero from his wrestling days, wrestling for Cuba. What's kind of

2:02:43 your read of this fight and then we'll get into your pick for who you think's going to

2:02:46 be. Well, I think Arasanya definitely cannot let Joelle get in close. Joelle kind of fights

2:02:54 like he used to wrestle. He sprints. He sprints. And when he explodes, he goes. And it's usually

2:03:03 lights out for the majority of people. So I think Arasanya's going to probably do a

2:03:08 good job of keeping his distance, using his reach, using his length, using his kickboxing

2:03:13 to kind of keep Joelle away from him. He can't let him grab him. If he grabs him, that dude's

2:03:20 going to go to the mat. Now, you know, the question is, it's a five round fight. Joelle's

2:03:25 conditioning. You know, how much will that play a factor? Right? You know, like you talked

2:03:28 about, you've got all these big muscles, that stuff needs oxygen. Yep. You know, it's probably

2:03:32 why he sprints the way that he does. Israel's a little bit more slimmer moves probably a

2:03:39 little bit moves better than Joelle. But that power in either hand, knees, it's deadly.

2:03:46 So it'll be interesting. I'm pretty sure Arasanya's probably the favorite, just because he's

2:03:50 the champ would be my guess. You know, and that dude went out there and took Whitaker

2:03:54 out in one round. You know, Joelle didn't do that in either those two fights that he

2:04:00 had with him. So it's going to be an interesting matchup. I mean, that's what's awesome about

2:04:04 you got a bulk job in Romero the way he looks at 42 years of age. And then you got a tall

2:04:10 slender dude of Arasanya the way he looks as well. And they're going to, they're going

2:04:14 to clash. But like I said, my guess is Arasanya's going to keep him at distance and uses jab,

2:04:20 uses footwork, uses kicks or uses movie tie and stuff like that and it's boxing to keep

2:04:24 him at distance and try to weather the storm early. If there is one, if there is a couple

2:04:30 of sprints in there, not go lacks for a second or two. And he'll win by decision. I'm not

2:04:38 going to say he's going to knock him out. Yeah, easy by decision. Easy by decision. Yeah.

2:04:42 So I thought a lot about this fight because it was one of those fights that I thought

2:04:45 you know, I was not going to fight him, but it just kind of worked out. Paul Costa heard

2:04:49 is he like a mess up his bicep tendon had to have surgery. So he wasn't in line to fight

2:04:53 and no one's going to complain. See, you know, Romero in a fight. The biggest thing about

2:04:57 this fight that I actually think is no one's really talking about it is is yo-el going

2:05:01 to beat the scale because yo-el Romero should have already been the 185 pound champion when

2:05:05 he knocked out Luke Rockhold when he not shot him into orbit. He should have, he should

2:05:09 have got to strap that night, but he missed weight. And so the title was on the line for

2:05:13 Luke Rockhold, but not for yo-el Romero, because it was a vacant title at the time. But because

2:05:17 I think it was Whitaker that gave it up. But you know, Israel and Asania obviously looked

2:05:21 great against Whitaker. He actually, he knocked him down at the very end of the first round.

2:05:24 So Whitaker made it out of the first round and got knocked down the second. But it may

2:05:27 as well, but it was basically done within the first round. Whitaker got saved by the

2:05:30 bell. But the thing about this fight that I think people are forgetting, and this is

2:05:33 the reason why spoiler alert that I'm picking yo-el Romero. I think Israel and Asania is

2:05:38 a scosh overrated. So I don't want to be a hater and be like, oh, you're still like,

2:05:43 you know, when he danced on the way to the octagon, you don't like the antics, you don't

2:05:45 like the brashness. That doesn't really bother me. I think he's a little bit overrated. I

2:05:49 think he was exposed by Kelvin Gastelum. And this is not a slight to Kelvin Gastelum

2:05:53 at all. But I think he got exposed a little bit because Kelvin Gastelum is not great at

2:05:58 anything except for fighting. And what I mean by that is he's not an other worldly wrestler.

2:06:03 Like he grew up in Arizona or New Mexico. He wasn't even a state champion in a state that

2:06:08 didn't have great wrestling, right? He's not an incredible Western boxer. He's not an

2:06:12 incredible Muay Thai fighter. He's not an incredible Jiu Jitsu practitioner. He's just a good fighter.

2:06:17 And he went in there and he hurt Israel, Asania twice significantly in that five round fight.

2:06:23 And in the fourth round of that fight, he hurt Israel, Adasanya, Adasanya ran, backed

2:06:27 up to the fence and Gastelum shot a takedown. He had Israel, Adasanya on Queer Street, and

2:06:32 all of a sudden he shoots a double leg takedown. It was one of the most flabbergasting decisions

2:06:36 I've ever seen. But he also landed a head kick on Israel, Adasanya. Now, if you don't

2:06:41 know Kelvin Gastelum is Kelvin Gastelum is about five foot eight fighting at 185 pounds.

2:06:45 He is tiny for that weight division, but he's very, very thick. Yeah. So a guy like you

2:06:49 go over a marrow when he hits you, you don't move, right? You just go down, right? This

2:06:54 is not a guy. I mean, I, you know, all with all due respect to Robert Whitaker who with

2:06:58 stood those blows. He's a guy that just does damage and he does so much damage in those

2:07:03 short sprints. I don't know that Israel, Adasanya, like it's, it almost feels a little bit like

2:07:07 the Tyson Fury, Deontay Wilder fight that we saw a couple of weeks ago. Now before that

2:07:12 fight, everyone thought Deontay Wilder just needed to connect once. He doesn't need to

2:07:15 be a good boxer. He needed to connect once. But Tyson Fury had to fight a perfect fight

2:07:21 for every single second. And you know, he came out the aggressor and we all saw how

2:07:24 that worked out. I feel like Israel, Adasanya has to fight a point style fight. You know,

2:07:30 he thinks he can knock out you all the Romero, he might, he might actually do that. But I

2:07:34 think you all Romero has to be good for five second spurts, a handful of times in that

2:07:39 fight. He's, he might get some 10 eight rounds because of that. He might send Israel, Adasanya

2:07:43 to the hospital, he might break him off one. So it's just kind of one of those deals.

2:07:47 So you got Adasanya, I got Romero, but the other fight, and this is kind of the big one,

2:07:51 this is a fight that MMA hardcore fans and even novice fans have been following and wanting

2:07:55 to happen for, for a really long time at UFC 249 and April 18th, we have Habib Nirmaga

2:08:00 Meda fighting Tony Ferguson for the 155 pound belt, the lightweight title. The thing about

2:08:05 this fight is this is now the fifth time that this fight has been booked. This fight has

2:08:09 been booked and it's been canceled. Habib had to pull out at different points. Tony Ferguson

2:08:13 had to pull out the last time Tony Ferguson had to pull out of the fight on fight week

2:08:17 because he tripped over some chords at a television station, blew every tendon in his knee. You

2:08:21 know, they had to find a short, you know, a short term replacement. You know, they, they

2:08:25 tried to get Max Holloway in there. They tried. It was just a mess. It was a mess whenever

2:08:28 the UFC had that. But we actually think that the MMA gods are going to let these two finally

2:08:33 get in the octagon and get after it. So kind of give me your read about, you know, Habib

2:08:38 Nirmaga, the 155 pound champion, very, very dominant. He's lost one round in his MMA career

2:08:42 and it was in his fight against Conor McGregor. He lost the third round of that fight versus

2:08:46 Tony Ferguson, who's one of the most, the least conventional fighters that we've ever seen

2:08:50 in an incredibly damaging fighter. What's kind of your read of that matchup?

2:08:53 Well, you know, with El Kukui, El Kukui, the boogeyman, El Kukui, that dude has a unique

2:09:01 style, man. I mean, very unique style and he does it his way. And it's very effective

2:09:06 for him his way. You know, his gas tank is always on full. You know, and the big thing

2:09:11 is if Habib gets that weight under control and, and, you know, his gas tank in too pad

2:09:17 either like he doesn't probably throw as well on his feet as Tony does, right? I think Tony's

2:09:25 probably got him, you know, I know he's taller than him, but his reach will probably be out

2:09:28 there. You know, I'm, first off, hope the fight goes off. Let's, let's say that first

2:09:34 and foremost, but second off, I just think, uh, I think that dude's on a, I just think,

2:09:40 I think Habib's on a different level. I think, uh, somehow, someway, he's going to get that

2:09:44 dude to the ground and, you know, talking with a crutchman and even Daniel, just a little

2:09:49 bit about that. It's like his strength is unreal down there, how they kind of explain

2:09:56 it to me. They say he feels extremely heavy and we know he's strong as all get out, but

2:10:02 they just say his balance and his movement down there, he just feels extremely heavy

2:10:07 and, you know, you see these dudes get down like he says, I'm going, I'm going to mall

2:10:11 you and he means that literally and it's just a, it's a different feel is what they tell

2:10:18 me, you know, granted, I've never felt it in anything like that, but just talking to

2:10:21 those guys because they train with him, um, you know, but I'm a pick-a-beep in that,

2:10:26 but like I said, I like Tony style. Um, he's very unorthodox. You know, it's kind of like

2:10:32 a wrestler, you know, Ben Asprin, which, you know, funk, whatever they want to call, you

2:10:35 know, it's unorthodox, but it worked for him, right? And you see a lot more of this scrambling

2:10:41 kind of what Ben was, Ben was doing unconventional, but it works. It's part of wrestling. Um, and

2:10:48 that's kind of like with El Cacoui, like a lot of his movement and punches and kicks

2:10:54 and different things that he does in that octagon, it's unorthodox, but it works for

2:10:58 him. It probably wouldn't work for 90% of the other guys, but it works for him. That

2:11:03 and that's what makes him so unique. So, but I'm still gonna roll AKA. Okay. So you got

2:11:07 AKA, you're picking a beep. How do you think the fight goes down? I don't know. I don't

2:11:14 know. I don't know. I don't think he's going to knock him out. I'm going to go another.

2:11:19 I'll say, I'm going to say submission in the fourth. Let's say he'll be submission in

2:11:24 the fourth. We'll go fourth round. Okay. That sounds good. Yeah. So I'm going to hit

2:11:27 you with a lee core. So not so fast. This is going to be the second prediction that I'm

2:11:31 going to go with the underdog. I'm going with Tony Ferguson, but I've got a bunch of really

2:11:35 good reasons why, but I'm going to keep some of them to myself and I'm going to give you

2:11:37 a few of them. So here's the deal is you're right. Both of them have great gas tanks,

2:11:42 those equal each other out, right? Uh, both of them have that, that dog in them, you know,

2:11:47 like when things get tough, like, I mean, they're not going to quit. They're not going

2:11:50 to be one of those types of people. I think for either of those guys to get sub, you're

2:11:53 just gonna have to break it or you're going to have to, you know, put them out. The reason

2:11:56 why I think Tony Ferguson is going to win is because in almost every single one of Tony

2:12:01 Ferguson's fights, even if he loses, which he has not done for seven years, I think it

2:12:05 was the last time he lost the fight, he leaves you bloody. So everything, because people

2:12:10 that talk about Tony Ferguson, everything on him is sharp. So his bones, his elbows,

2:12:16 his shins, everything is just sharp because he's kind of a lanky, uh, one of those type

2:12:20 of rangy guys. And this fight's taking place in New York. And if I can take you back to

2:12:25 the BMF title, that nonsense title, that nonsense fight between Nate Diaz and Jorge

2:12:30 Mazvidal, the BMF baddest mother, you know, what title was decided on a cut. Nate Diaz

2:12:36 had a huge cut over his eye. And the, you know, New York state athletic commission doctor

2:12:41 came in and stopped the fight. I think that we might see this fight get stopped because

2:12:45 of a cut. I think that happens. People are going to be, uh, oh man, Dag is standing it

2:12:50 or whatever they're called. They're going to be coming over here looking for blood. But

2:12:53 here's the deal is when Tony gets taken down, he's like, okay. Okay. Whereas, whenever

2:12:59 Dustin Poreo got taken down by Habib, whenever Connor got taken down, when anyone else has

2:13:04 got taken down by Habib, it's like, Oh no. What do I do now? I'm stuck here. Tony's like

2:13:09 great. My, my backs on the mat. I get to elbow you in the face now. That's the thing with

2:13:15 him is he has one of the most active guards. So if Habib takes him down and he gets him

2:13:19 in full guard, I think Tony's going to be throwing a lot of strikes from the bottom. Now the

2:13:23 other thing you have to worry about is if it goes to decision, these New York state athletic

2:13:26 commission judges, we don't know if they think, Oh, the guy's on top. So he's clearly winning

2:13:30 the round. Well, if you're, if you get the guy down and then you do nothing else with

2:13:34 that position, you get busted up from the bottom, you lose that round. You should lose that round.

2:13:37 But here's the other thing is Tony Ferguson has really, really slick defenses, especially

2:13:41 his Darsh Chope. Okay. Dustin Poreo almost submitted Habib Nurmagomedov. Now Dustin Poreo

2:13:47 is a black belt, but he's not an other worldly jujitsu fighter. And if he had closed full

2:13:51 guard on Habib, he'd probably be the 155 pound champion right now. If Tony Ferguson gets his

2:13:57 neck, Habib's not getting the back. And so with Habib, the only way he wins this fight

2:14:03 is by taking Tony down at least five times and holding him there and doing some ground

2:14:08 in pound. That's how he gets to win this fight. But I think Tony can win. I don't think he's

2:14:12 going to win with kind of one punch, you know, Superman knockout. I don't think he's going

2:14:15 to do that. But he can win by a cut. He could, he could take, you know, three rounds by being

2:14:20 more active on bottom if he is taken down. And Tony Ferguson is not a slouch wrestler.

2:14:24 This is a legit dude. Now Habib makes, you know, boys out of men when it comes to the

2:14:28 wrestling department, but it's one of those things that if Habib makes one mistake, I think

2:14:33 he could be going to sleep and I think it would be a Darsh Choke. So my prediction is

2:14:37 going to be a fourth round submission finish, but I got it by Tony Ferguson. But one guy

2:14:42 that we've mentioned a few times, or I've mentioned a few times, we've mentioned Conor

2:14:45 McGregor. So he's obviously on his comeback trail. He, he destroyed cowboy, uh, it's

2:14:49 Roni here in his last fight here earlier this year, but there's a lot of to do about who

2:14:54 he's going to fight next. He says he wants to be, but you know, Habib's fine, Tony in

2:14:57 April and then he's got Ramadan and he's not going to be available until September. Are

2:15:01 we really going to see Conor McGregor sit out for nine months after his incredible performance

2:15:05 in January? Who knows? There's other names that have been thrown out there. Jorge Mazudal,

2:15:09 Nadia's Justin Gachie, but I want to kind of ask you, who do you want to see Connor fight

2:15:14 next? And then also who do you think he will fight next?

2:15:17 I wouldn't mind seeing him fight Gachie. If you want my, uh, honest opinion. Um, I think

2:15:23 Gachie's got a real good chance of beating him. Um, especially, I mean, whether it's

2:15:26 on his feet or, or, or, or wrestling, you know, people I think, uh, Gachie wrestled,

2:15:31 uh, was it North of Colorado? He wrestled somewhere around in that area, but I think,

2:15:35 uh, you know, I know Gachie's kind of changed the style a little bit, you know, I mean,

2:15:38 he's still a brawler. Don't get me wrong, but not like he was when he first came out,

2:15:42 man. And you know, he understands that, you know, this time is short and he's got to

2:15:45 get the most out of that than possible. So he's not going in there just to get hit,

2:15:50 see how many times I can get hit and let me knock you out with this one blow. So, um,

2:15:54 I think, uh, between, between those guys, I'd like the same fight, Gachie, but who knows

2:15:59 there's not a contract sign. There's not anything like that sign yet. So only time

2:16:03 shall tell brother. Yeah, that's the thing with him is you got a lot of the names being

2:16:07 thrown out. Now here's the thing is I think Gachie is incredibly dangerous. He's an incredibly

2:16:11 brutal fighter. I think he would be heavy. Also, I think Gachie's got that style that

2:16:16 it's just like, go ahead, take me down. I think he could wear him out with leg kicks as well.

2:16:19 But selfishly, because I'm a Conor McGregor fan, but also because I'm a MMA fan. Like

2:16:23 when, when Connor's doing well, MMA is doing well, I want to see him fight Nate Diaz next

2:16:28 because I think he can win that fight. Again, their second fight was brutal. Like it was

2:16:32 a brutal five round knockdown dragout, but I think Nate Diaz is an incredibly overrated

2:16:36 fighter. And he's not nearly as dangerous as Justin Gachie is. Like because Justin Gachie's

2:16:41 gonna, you know, potentially send you to the moon, whereas Nate Diaz is just gonna wear

2:16:44 on you for, you know, for potentially five rounds, maybe sneak in a submission. But I

2:16:49 really, really, really want to see Conor McGregor fight for a title at the end of this year.

2:16:53 So let's say he'll be wins. Let's say your prediction is right, which would be the first

2:16:56 time ever you got a prediction, right? But let's just say, let's just say you got that

2:16:59 right. That sets up a stadium fight later this year. So there's already been people talking

2:17:04 about if let's say Habib beats Tony and let's say Connor beats, you know, fill in the blank

2:17:08 fighter at the end of the year going with this. I mean, you got the brand new Raiders stadium

2:17:13 in Vegas. You got, you got, you know, Jerry World down in Dallas. That fight is already,

2:17:18 it will be the biggest fight in MMA history. And it fills up a stadium, right? You don't

2:17:22 got to do it in Moscow. No need to do that. You don't got to do it in Dublin. You do that

2:17:25 in Vegas. You do that in Dallas and you can fill up the entire, the entire place in the

2:17:30 world will stop to watch that rematch. And again, if you believe what counters coaches

2:17:34 were saying in the lead up to the Habib fight, Connor would disappear for three or four days

2:17:39 at a time and go on a bender, you know, just drinking and doing whatever else partying.

2:17:43 It didn't seem like he was taking things very seriously. Now, I don't know that that makes

2:17:46 a big difference. If you really concentrates, I don't know if that makes a big difference

2:17:49 because Habib has the perfect style to beat a Conor McGregor type fighter. But that's

2:17:54 what I want to see. I want to see an easy ish fight for Connor this summer. Not, not

2:17:58 like another tune tune a fight and ADS isn't an easy night out for anybody, but I want to

2:18:03 I just want Connor McGregor to win. And I feel like even if he beats a guy like Justin

2:18:08 Gaechee, he might have two broken legs. Like won't be able to walk out the outside. I mean,

2:18:13 that's for sure. Yeah. So it's going to be interesting here. There's a lot of really

2:18:16 good fights. I mean, they're going to have to make up a date out of thin air for those

2:18:19 two because the MMA counters pretty much full already until the summer. Well, the good thing

2:18:23 is they're deep, right? They got a lot of different options. They got a lot of different

2:18:26 choices. And you know, that's what that's what the fans want to see, you know, in all

2:18:30 respect. So only time shall tell. Yeah, we'll we'll we'll put a bow on the MMA stuff and

2:18:35 we'll move into a couple of last things before we let you go. So obviously for you, I've known

2:18:40 you as a coach, but also I've known you as a as a husband and as a father and those types

2:18:45 of things. And so for me, my wife and I will have been married for 11 years. Lord willing

2:18:50 by the time our baby boy comes into the world and we get to meet him. But obviously you've

2:18:54 got a you've got a wife that you've been married to for a long time. You've got your oldest

2:18:58 son and your youngest daughter. And so for you to me, you know, as a friend, but also

2:19:03 just as as a person that knows a thing or two about life, what would be some of your

2:19:07 kind of on your short list of things to advise me on when it comes to raising a first born

2:19:12 son, which, you know, again, Lord willing, that's exactly what I will be doing. And in

2:19:16 being a good husband while also maintaining being a good father and being a good influence

2:19:21 to the greater community, what advice would you give to me a new father?

2:19:24 First and foremost, be patient. And that patient comes from being patient with your wife, being

2:19:35 patient with your child, because us as men have the slightest idea of what that woman's

2:19:46 going through. And what that woman feels at different times throughout the day, throughout

2:19:53 the night, and trying to raise that child. And a lot of the times it's done by themselves

2:20:00 because that's who that child needs at that point in time, right? We are, we are there

2:20:07 for a few minutes compared to a lot of hours, if that makes sense, because they need their

2:20:15 mom, they need the milk, they need the cuddling. That's what they need. So patience is number

2:20:21 one. And like I said, that's what your wife and that's with your child, right? Number two,

2:20:30 priorities, your priorities will change. My priorities changed when Maddox was born. And

2:20:37 I was still doing the Edmund Generals at that time. Like I told my parents at the beginning

2:20:43 of the season, like when Maddox gets here, when my child is born, you know, I had a four

2:20:50 or five, maybe no more than six tournaments that I was going to and three of them were

2:20:54 national tournaments and a regionals in the state were another one, right? And I informed

2:21:01 all my coaches, all my volunteer coaches or volunteer dads that wanted to help out that

2:21:05 I'll be at practice, but I won't be at 90% of the tournaments this year. Priorities change,

2:21:13 right? Nobody had a problem with it because they're all parents. They all got it. They

2:21:19 all understood. You're going to be where your child is at. I'm not going to leave my wife

2:21:24 at home all day with the kid eight weeks in a row. You know what I mean? So that changed.

2:21:33 That's priorities. Also with that, even my practice schedule changed. Like I had where

2:21:38 I would have some help and be like, Hey, man, I'm not coming to practice today. You know,

2:21:42 you guys, you guys run practice. So for those first two years with that, priorities was

2:21:48 a big part. You know, then when Maddox got a little bit older and can come with me, that

2:21:51 kind of that helped the routine out a little bit more, right? So patience, priorities,

2:21:58 and you know, comfort, comfort's another one because your wife's going to do this, right?

2:22:06 She's going to have good days and she'll have bad days. And sometimes it depends on how

2:22:09 that kid is doing it. She has a good day or bad day. And your job as the father, your

2:22:17 job as the husband is to give her that space and understand and observe, right? Observe

2:22:27 and see how she's doing throughout the day. If she needs space, give her space. If it's

2:22:34 a day where she's upbeat, chitchat a little bit more, because when I tell my wife like

2:22:40 it's there's no adult conversation. Like in our household, I was out working. She was

2:22:46 at home with the kiddos. There was no adult conversation, right? And those, those first

2:22:53 Maddox's first, you know, five years, four or five years before he went off to school

2:22:58 was just them two. Then when Emory came, well, Emory came along with it. So it was just them

2:23:03 two at the house, right? Then Maddox goes to school. Emory still at the house. Emory will

2:23:07 go to pre K next year. So, you know, comfort, because it's a there's going to be, there's

2:23:13 going to be your son's going to have a blow up about something and he's going to be crying

2:23:18 all day about something. And if you're out of the house or if you're at work, if you're

2:23:22 not here, you may not see that she deals with all of that. And that's where that comfort

2:23:28 part comes in. So those are some of my things, patience, priorities and comfort. Like they

2:23:34 all kind of go hand in hand and you'll, there's no book to it, right? Every kid is different

2:23:40 and no kid has raised the exact same way, right? And it's a learning process for everybody.

2:23:47 Every child is different. Every book is different. Both of my kids are different, right? You

2:23:52 have another one. Your other one's going to be different than this one, right? And those

2:23:55 are things that you just got to there's going to be ups and downs in it, you know, take

2:24:00 as much off of her hands as you can. That's big, you know, whether, you know, if she's

2:24:09 got a feed or pump or whatever the case may be or this by now you may be on bottles go

2:24:14 do the bottle feed that night. Like that's because they are in comatose for a while, man.

2:24:21 It's they are in comatose. And that's why, like I say, no dude understands birth. It's

2:24:25 the most amazing thing. It's, it's crazy. The human body is nuts. How all life is nuts.

2:24:36 And I don't think you get a true perspective of it until you go through this process that

2:24:41 you're getting ready to go through and you experience it and you watch or you're there

2:24:47 when your child is born and they put them right on the mom's chest right after that.

2:24:51 You cut the umbilical cord. It's, it's nuts, man. It's absolutely nuts. So those are three

2:24:57 things that I would kind of keep in the back of your mind. And I know there's a bunch more,

2:25:02 but those are a few things that I kind of kept in mind and still to this day because

2:25:07 you know, there'll be some things that, that change that you won't be able to do as much

2:25:12 as you used to. Right. And that's just, that's a part of it because you got to understand

2:25:17 their sacrifice and a lot and they've already sacrificed a lot. And that's, that's what

2:25:23 makes a happy household. That's what makes, I mean, you're working together. And then

2:25:26 when, when, when little man gets a little bit older, kind of roll back around to some

2:25:30 of that stuff, right? And then it just, it'll process, but taking that time out with those

2:25:35 priorities and helping out and doing different things. Just a little, little, little bitty

2:25:40 things, man. It pays big dividends. Well, I appreciate your perspective. And of course

2:25:44 you would say one of my least favorite words in the English language first, the, that word

2:25:48 being patience because I'm an incredibly impatient person. I just need things done now

2:25:52 or five minutes ago. And so I'm sure there's a reason, a cosmic reason why you said that

2:25:57 ever first. And so no comment, no comment. Yeah, yeah, that'll be one of those things

2:26:01 where we will, we'll give you guys an update on that patience word and we'll see how that's

2:26:05 going. But the thing that I do like and the thing that I've been trying to do from my

2:26:07 wife at this point, because we're in the third trimester is taking as many things off of

2:26:11 her plays as possible to demanding that she sit down and put her feet up while I go take

2:26:15 care of this, that and the other thing. And so that's one of those things where that

2:26:19 comes naturally for a lot of guys. They're more intuitive with it, I'll say, because for

2:26:24 me, I might need to be told what to do. And that's kind of my wife and I struggle is she

2:26:28 hates being a burden. And so I'm the guy that maybe doesn't look around the house and sees

2:26:34 five things that need to be done. But if you give me a list, ooh, I just found a bunch

2:26:38 of checkboxes that don't have checks in them yet. I need to go take care of business. Yeah.

2:26:42 And so that's kind of the give the give and take that my wife and I've had right now is

2:26:45 like, boo, I understand that you don't like asking for things. You don't like feeling

2:26:49 like a burden. But you're going to burden me. And I'm going to have to ask you because

2:26:53 I'm a I'm a dummy, right? I'm kind of stupid. And I just don't have those intuitive skills

2:26:58 that you have. But that would be super helpful. And in the thing that I'm most looking forward

2:27:02 to in a lot of different ways is being able to lead a child and to raise them up in a

2:27:08 Christian household, learning those values and not saying, Hey, we don't just live in

2:27:11 America, which has Judeo Christian ethics that have just kind of been woven into society

2:27:16 and all these different things. But that's not that's not real doesn't attach anything.

2:27:20 I'm I'm excited to kind of teach those things. So so for you as a father, but also as a spiritual

2:27:25 leader of your household, how do you set the temperature for for the household? Because

2:27:29 most men, they are they're a thermometer. They're not thermostat when it comes to the spiritual

2:27:35 nature of their house. It's just not something that they're active in. But how is that different

2:27:39 for you with your wife but also with your son or your daughter?

2:27:41 I just try to lead by example, I think, you know, you know, always keeping a positive

2:27:46 outlook on it. And you know, knowing that we're in all due respect, we're here for a

2:27:52 short time, right? We're here for a short time and and and trying to do the best that

2:27:57 we can while we're there. You know, we we go to church pretty much every Sunday that

2:28:02 we can and just trying to live the right way and do the right things, you know, and listen

2:28:12 while you're in there and take something away from it, right? And, you know, that's one thing

2:28:16 when you go in and then when you're when you're going to church and you're listening to the

2:28:19 preacher preach, like, it's like it's weird because some of the stuff that they talk about,

2:28:24 you're like, dad gone it. I'm going through that right now. Yeah, sure. It's like he's

2:28:28 talking to me. Who is he talking to, right? And, you know, my daughter does Bible blast

2:28:35 at our at our church. They didn't do it this Sunday, but they do it for like, I don't know,

2:28:39 it's like seven weeks. And just to hear some of the things that she talks about and also

2:28:45 my son, when he did it, you know, and learning their different verses and so on and so forth

2:28:50 and going through the Bible, like it's pretty, it's interesting, like these kids are smart,

2:28:54 they're crazy smart. You know, I'm just trying to lead by example, man, and my wife doesn't

2:28:59 also job at it as well. So, you know, we just kind of walked down that path hand in hand

2:29:03 because, you know, the good Lord has blessed us another day. And we got to take advantage

2:29:10 of that and make sure we're grateful because there's a lot of crazy in the world and you're

2:29:15 not promised tomorrow. You know what I mean? You're not promised tomorrow and you just

2:29:20 got to take advantage of it to make sure you're living the right life. Absolutely. Well, we

2:29:25 almost did two and a half hours of a podcast. It just kind of flew by, didn't it? Yeah,

2:29:29 it's like we're in the we're in a time warp here. But I mean, we went everywhere. We talked

2:29:33 about every thing around a few times. Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, that that's pretty

2:29:38 much all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? No, man, I appreciate

2:29:42 you allowing me this platform and and get me over here to get this done. You know, a couple

2:29:48 of links I'll give out real quick with Oklahoma wrestling academy.com. I'm on Instagram at

2:29:56 Hardale More. We also have an Oklahoma wrestling academy Instagram as well. But this is this

2:30:02 was fun, man. It didn't didn't seem that long. But you know, look at my watch. It actually

2:30:07 is. But I guess that's what happens when you're having a good time. And so you're doing awesome

2:30:11 stuff over here, man. Continue success Kyle. And anything else you need for me? Let me know

2:30:18 except put me in a game. Okay, well, you know, we're still going to work on that. But

2:30:23 guys, we will make it. Yeah, exactly. I'll give you guys an update. We will make sure

2:30:27 that you have those links in the show notes, but Hardale more. Thanks for coming on on

2:30:31 Daunted Life, a man's podcast. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

2:30:38 There it is guys. Hope you enjoyed that. I know I enjoyed the conversation with Hardale

2:30:41 More. I mean, we thought we were going to do about an hour and then literally we looked

2:30:45 up and it was two and a half hours later. And so there's a lot of content in there. Hopefully

2:30:48 you guys enjoyed it. But before we let you guys go, we are going to do a quick resilience

2:30:51 boost. As you know, by now we are a men's ministry and our mission is cultivating manly

2:30:55 resilience. Specifically, we do that by providing content like this podcast that helps you forge

2:30:59 spiritual, mental and physical toughness. So for today, the links I've got for you, I've

2:31:03 got the link to the Oklahoma Wrestling Academy, OWA website. I've got the Instagram accounts

2:31:08 for Hardale More and OWA. And then also I have an article that talks about Hardale More winning

2:31:12 the Gallagher Award on or back in 2016. All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening to

2:31:17 the podcast. I really do appreciate it. If you would, please subscribe on Apple podcast.

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2:31:37 us know why you like the content. I'm currently booking speaking engagements for the entirety

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2:31:44 adventures, hit me up info@undaunted.life. Again, that's info@undaunted.life. The website

2:31:49 is www.undaunted.life. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @undauntedlife or facebook.com/undauntedlife.

2:31:56 Check out our free devotionals on the U version Bible app. Just search undaunted life under

2:32:00 plans. And as always, we want to thank the band August Burns read for allowing us to

2:32:03 use their entire music library for our content. The intro outro track on this podcast is our

2:32:08 song King of Sorrow, which is off their latest record entitled Phantom Anthem. The links are

2:32:12 in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep cultivating manly resilience,

2:32:18 keep forging spiritual, mental and physical toughness. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.

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