123 - RICK ANKIEL | The Phenom And The Phenomenon

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0:59 This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.

1:13 I'm your host Kyle Thompson.

1:14 Let's get into it.

1:15 All right, guys, today we've got another interview for you.

1:18 This is with Rick Ankyl.

1:19 So that is a former professional baseball player that actually played with six different franchises between 1999 and 2013.

1:27 But most notably was his time with the St. Louis Cardinals.

1:30 So yes, I'm a Cardinals fan.

1:32 But guys, this story goes beyond any particular team, any team that you're a fan or not a fan of.

1:37 Because the thing about this guy just reminds you of what he went through.

1:40 He was a pitcher from 1999 to 2001.

1:43 He was seen as a phenom.

1:45 He was the next great left-handed pitcher.

1:47 He was compared to Sandy Kofax.

1:49 He was on one of the classic franchises, one of the six classic franchises in Major League Baseball.

1:54 But everything changed in the 2000 season.

1:57 Okay, so in the 2000 season, he had a great regular season at the age of 20.

2:01 He went 11 and seven with an ERA that was 3.5, which was top 10 in the National League that year.

2:06 But he very famously lost his ability to throw strikes.

2:10 Okay, so if you can remember back the first game of the National League Division Series in 2000,

2:14 it was game one at home for the Cardinals versus the Braves.

2:18 And so the Braves were the team that he loved growing up because he grew up in that area.

2:22 He watched him, Greg Maddox was his favorite pitcher.

2:24 Well, Greg Maddox was the opposing pitcher, but Greg Maddox gives up six runs early in that game.

2:29 Very uncharacteristically.

2:31 So you're thinking this kid is just going to have a nice game.

2:34 He's going to get his first playoff win under his belt.

2:36 And it just didn't quite work out that way.

2:38 In the third inning alone, he throws five wild pitches.

2:42 There were certainly more pitches that could have gone wild, but there are five wild pitches

2:46 and four walks before he was mercilessly pulled from the game by Tony LaRusa.

2:50 In his next game back, that was in the NL Championship Series game two against the Mets.

2:55 He threw 20 pitches, five of them went past the catcher.

2:58 Then he pitched again in NLCS game five.

3:01 He faced four hitters, walked two of them, two wild pitches.

3:04 The Cardinals were eliminated in the CS that year,

3:06 but it just started this downward spiral spiral for him in his career.

3:10 He was sent down to AAA to try and regain his command and the problems only got worse.

3:14 He eventually was sent down all the way to rookie ball, right?

3:17 I mean, there's a lot of levels of the minor leagues.

3:19 He went all the way down to the very, very bottom, which is rookie ball.

3:23 He dealt with injuries.

3:24 He had Tommy John surgery, but it was a several years process.

3:28 He had a brief stint as a reliever in St. Louis in 2004,

3:31 but he really never regained his elite pitching form that everyone had compared him to,

3:36 you know, basically all the greats from the left side of the mound at that time.

3:40 But in 2005, he actually switched to being an outfielder.

3:43 I mean, just think about that, you're a professional pitcher,

3:46 but he has the athletic ability and the talent to become potentially an outfielder.

3:50 So he spent about two and a half years turning himself from an elite level

3:53 talent pitcher into a Major League hitter.

3:55 And he made it all the way back to the big leagues in August of 2007.

4:01 I mean, just an absolutely crazy story.

4:03 The fans gave him the best fans of baseball reminder,

4:06 gave him a long standing ovation.

4:07 And believe it or not, in his first game back in the majors, as an outfielder,

4:11 he hits a three run home run in the seventh inning.

4:13 I mean, this made him a legend.

4:15 I mean, two days later against the Dodgers, he had three hits, two home runs,

4:19 three RBIs, a web gym play and right field.

4:21 And that kind of just sent him on his way in his career as being an outfielder.

4:24 But I love this quote from the late Charles Krauthammer.

4:27 This was kind of posted around this time, his return after seven years,

4:31 if only three days long is the stuff of legend made even more perfect by the timing.

4:38 Just two days after Barry Bonds sets a synthetic home run record in San Francisco,

4:43 the natural returns to St. Louis.

4:46 Just an absolutely incredible quote there from Charles Krauthammer.

4:49 And he played into the through 2009 with St. Louis.

4:52 And then between 2010 and 2013, he spent time with the Royals, the Braves,

4:57 the Nationals, Astros and Mets before officially retiring in March of 2014.

5:02 This guy had an incredible career.

5:04 Obviously, his story is amazing.

5:05 It'll probably be turned into a movie eventually.

5:07 But he became the first player since Babe Ruth.

5:11 Yes, that Babe Ruth to win at least 10 games as a picture and also hit at least 50 home runs.

5:18 It's just those two guys, just an incredible career.

5:21 But in April of 2017, Ankyo released a memoir entitled The Phenomenon,

5:26 Pressure, The Yips and The Pitch That Changed My Life.

5:29 And it ended up being a New York Times bestseller.

5:31 It was just an incredible book.

5:33 And if you go back all the way to episode two, episode two of this podcast,

5:37 it was called The Best Books of 2017. I listed it as my favorite book of the year.

5:42 And if you go to our book list on our website, it's just www.ondaunted.life/booklist.

5:48 It is listed as one of the 100 books that every modern Christian man should read list.

5:53 And it's not just because I'm a Cardinals fan, because I'm a baseball guy,

5:55 because it's the most uniquely written biography that I've ever read.

5:59 It's absolutely incredible.

6:00 But in the truest sense of the word, guys, the story of Rick Ankyo is a story of resilience.

6:07 I mean, in this podcast, we talk about so many different things,

6:10 but kind of an undercurrent for his entire life is resilience, right?

6:13 You know, we talk about the writing of the book.

6:15 We talk about his career, what it was like mentally and physically,

6:18 going down to the minor leagues and coming back.

6:20 You know, when we don't just stay in the world of baseball,

6:23 I mean, we certainly talk about the 2020 Cardinals.

6:25 We talk about the situation going on with the Houston Astros.

6:27 But we also talk about his tumultuous relationship with his father and the things

6:32 that he went through and kind of how that affects his relationship with his two sons

6:36 and his wife today.

6:37 You know, we got into some spiritual conversation about, you know,

6:40 was there a spiritual aspect to the stuff that he went through back

6:43 whenever he was having all the problems we're throwing?

6:45 I mean, it was a really fantastic conversation.

6:47 So guys, if you're thinking to yourself, I don't like baseball.

6:50 I don't even know who this guy is or I hate the Cardinals, whatever the situation is.

6:53 I'm telling you, there is a lot to like about this particular episode.

6:57 Regardless of your fandom, regardless of if you even watch America's pastime,

7:01 there's a lot for you to learn and there's a lot that you can pick up

7:04 from Rick Endkiel's resilience and his ability to just get things done

7:07 and overcome his situation.

7:09 So guys, without further ado, let's get into it.

7:11 Rick Endkiel, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.

7:15 Thank you.

7:16 Well, man, we're so excited to have you on the podcast today because a lot of people

7:20 recognize your name because your book, The Phenomenon, Pressure, The Yips,

7:24 and the Pitch That Changed My Life, that was our book of the year for 2007, 2017.

7:29 We, that was our second episode we ever did.

7:31 We kind of did our best books for that year.

7:33 And that was the book of the year that we named.

7:34 And personally, for me, that is my favorite autobiography, my favorite memoir that I've ever read.

7:39 Could you, even just to start us off here, could you just tell us why even write an autobiography?

7:45 Like what was the decision process like for you and your family to put that stuff down on paper

7:50 and kind of give us an idea with the process of writing that with the co-writer was like?

7:54 Well, you know, after I went through the throwing issues

7:59 and then, you know, battled those throwing issues and worked my way through that

8:04 and then came back to the big leagues as a pitcher and then later changed to an outfielder.

8:09 You know, I got a lot of interest then.

8:12 I had interest to make a movie and I just felt like the timing wasn't right.

8:16 To be in uniform and my thinking was to have something at the box office or

8:22 drawing that kind of attention would have felt like a distraction for not only me but my teammates.

8:26 So once I finally got done playing, the interest popped back up again.

8:31 I kept getting questions about it.

8:32 My agent Scott Boris and some people close to me were like, "Listen, I think,

8:37 you know, I just think this would be a really good thing.

8:39 You could help a lot of people."

8:40 And I know going through the throwing issues and some of those things, you know,

8:44 there just wasn't a lot of literature about it out there.

8:46 It just seemed like a lot of guys didn't want to talk to it.

8:49 The former guys that had been through it.

8:50 And I felt like, you know, after talking with everyone and kind of sitting down and going through it,

8:56 I felt like if I could sit down and, you know, tell my story, talk about what it did to me,

9:02 what it was like, all the things that I had to deal with.

9:05 And if that would in turn help someone else get through some hard times,

9:10 if they were going through, then why not do it?

9:11 I'm certainly glad I did it.

9:13 It was very therapeutic.

9:14 I didn't expect that to happen.

9:15 But it did and it's funny because I know going through it and just, you know,

9:21 the mentors I had and talking about this and all the, you know,

9:24 the psychology side of it that I went through, I felt like I had talked about it enough.

9:30 And I didn't realize that in writing this book, maybe I hadn't because once I did write the book

9:35 in the interviews and talking about it and bringing it back to life,

9:39 I really felt a sense of inner peace and a sense of calmness that I hadn't had before I did it.

9:46 Well, and the cool thing that you mentioned is I think the style that you wrote it in

9:50 is one of the reasons why it was so readable and why it was so interesting because

9:53 this wasn't your typical baseball autobiography, right?

9:56 Oh, I was born at this time and then it's all very linear.

9:59 Typically it's, I was born at this time in place.

10:01 This is when I discovered the game and then I just kept going.

10:04 The thing that was so interesting about this book is that it skips around

10:07 and it's almost frenetic.

10:08 There are times where you'll be in the middle describing something baseball related

10:11 and then you'll shift to something from your childhood.

10:13 So why write it in that style?

10:16 Because again, most memoirs are very linear when it comes to time.

10:19 This one's all over the place.

10:20 Why do it that way?

10:21 Well, in sitting down with Tim Brown who is the writer, the co-writer,

10:26 I felt like for me to tell my story, it needed to be truthful and it needed to be real.

10:33 And I felt like I got to give him credit.

10:35 When you sit down to do a project like this, really it's a big interview process and whether

10:41 we're working on, let's call it a chapter or a timeline and say we're working on the

10:45 timeline being from the time I was eight years old to 12 years old and I'm just throwing out

10:49 stories and thoughts and what not, he did a really good job of picking and choosing

10:55 what stories to tell and which ones not to because anyone's life.

10:59 You start looking at those type of timelines and geez, what stories do you use and which

11:03 ones do you not?

11:04 And that's kind of what makes the story flow.

11:07 So I got to give him a lot of credit, but for me, I really just felt like I needed to be

11:11 open about the entire thing to for anyone to grasp what it was about my story.

11:17 And you know, I felt like we did a good job of that.

11:20 I really do.

11:21 Yeah, I think it came off very well and you're in.

11:23 I agree that you all did a great job with it, but you mentioned it being very therapeutic.

11:27 But what some people may not know is that you actually recorded the audio book version of

11:31 your autobiography as well.

11:33 So what was that like, you know, basically reading your book, but reading your life out loud?

11:38 Did that, did that kind of help with the therapeutic nature of things or just kind of

11:42 describe that process to us?

11:44 Um, you know, it was interesting and when that topic came up of, do you want to read

11:48 this or hire someone else to read it, I felt like, no, I want to be the one that reads it.

11:51 Um, and in doing that, I usually talk really fast.

11:55 I'm pretty animated.

11:56 I'll use my hands quite a bit.

11:57 Um, and in recording something like that, you really have to slow it down and then

12:02 try to dictate the sentence the way it should be, you know, should be said.

12:05 So it makes sense.

12:06 So it was, it was a learning experience.

12:08 Um, and then to be honest, there were some parts of it that, you know, when you're,

12:12 when I'm reading a book, let's say I'm not reading it out loud, but I'm just reading it.

12:15 Um, you know, you're kind of fast reading.

12:18 And I've read these chapters so many times that it felt like, you know, a lot of it

12:22 already knew what it was going to say, but you're trying to reread it and get it right

12:25 and make sure there's words in there that you would use and all the things that come with that.

12:28 But reading it out loud and slowing down and trying to put it together way,

12:32 it should have been put together.

12:33 There were some, there were some sentences or chapters or, you know, a time here and

12:38 there where I would think, man, that doesn't make sense now that I'm saying it out loud.

12:41 So, um, it was just an interesting experience.

12:44 I'm glad I did it.

12:45 It took three days.

12:46 The first day I felt like I wasn't even close.

12:49 The second day I felt a little better than the third day I felt better.

12:54 So it's funny because after the third day, I said to the people that I was working with,

12:57 hey, maybe we should go back and rerecord the first day.

12:59 And they're like, no, it'll be fine.

13:00 We can edit it.

13:02 It'll be fine.

13:03 So it was fun.

13:04 I enjoyed it.

13:05 Very good.

13:05 So getting into the books, some of the things you talked about.

13:08 So the thing is from the very early stages of your life, you obviously knew that you were a

13:12 tremendous athlete, but it's always interesting when you have someone that is so gifted by God

13:17 with this, this plethora of abilities, what sport they end up gravitating towards and why

13:22 they pick that sport.

13:23 So for you as a tremendous athlete growing up, why did you choose baseball?

13:27 You know, it was, it was just, I was just always good at it.

13:31 It was one of those, those things that I was just good at.

13:35 And we always had the brave, I grew up in South Florida, so we had TBS down here.

13:39 And braids were always on.

13:40 And I think watching it, I just fell in love with it.

13:43 And then fell in love with the braids.

13:45 And then I knew that's, I just felt like that's what I wanted to do.

13:48 And that's what I wanted to be.

13:49 Like, you know, just a little boy's dream.

13:51 It's funny because I wasn't actually the greatest of athletes when I was younger.

13:56 But as I got older, I just kept working harder and it started coming.

14:00 And obviously the talents, I was definitely blessed with a good arm.

14:04 But all around athlete, I wasn't, I wouldn't say that I was the greatest of athletes,

14:08 you know, from that eight to 12 or even 12 to 15.

14:11 And as I got older, I started to get better.

14:13 But I was just drawn to baseball for whatever reason.

14:16 Well, the cool thing about that, there was actually some research

14:19 that I read not that long ago was talking about people that end up being the elite

14:23 of the elite athletes.

14:24 So think about a major league or someone that starts in the NBA, that type of thing.

14:27 That for the most part, none of those people were really good athletes as a kid.

14:31 But the kid who was the fastest kid in elementary school or the best pitcher in junior high,

14:36 those are the ones that kind of flame out because either they stop working hard

14:40 because it just comes so easy to them.

14:42 I'm thinking about a guy that I grew up with.

14:43 He was a left handed pitcher and just no one could touch him.

14:46 I won't say his name here, but just no one could touch this kid.

14:48 And then he got to high school and he kind of started making some stupid decisions

14:51 and, you know, was partying and not really focused on baseball.

14:54 And it was all of a sudden the entire game of baseball caught up to where he was.

14:58 He was untouchable two years prior.

15:00 And then all of a sudden, you know, he was just kind of another left handed pitcher

15:03 at our high school kind of a deal.

15:04 But the thing for you is speaking of high school, you made your major league debut

15:08 at the age of 20.

15:10 So, so you were just a couple of years removed from high school.

15:13 Like you were, you were in, you know, biology class and now you're pitching in the major leagues.

15:17 I mean, what was that like being so young and being in the big leagues?

15:20 You know, at the time, it felt like that's what it was supposed to be.

15:24 And I mean that it just, you know, my goal was to be the best pitcher on the planet,

15:28 the best player on the planet. And it just seemed like the harder I worked,

15:32 the better results I was getting.

15:33 And that kind of just, I won't like reaffirmed for me that I needed to work hard.

15:38 And the results just kept coming.

15:40 And it doesn't always go that way.

15:41 But it felt like I just kept putting in the time.

15:44 I kept running more, I kept doing everything I could possibly do.

15:47 And the results just kept coming.

15:48 So when it all happened and I got, you know, got the call to go up to the big leagues.

15:53 It was just a real moment.

15:54 But at the same time, it just felt like this is where I'm supposed to be.

15:57 And this is my time.

15:58 And here we go. It was freaking awesome, to be honest.

16:02 I mean, I assume that would be awesome.

16:04 Because as a little kid, you wanted to be there.

16:06 And then by the age of 20, you're already there.

16:07 But that kind of leads to the next question,

16:09 which is when you're a teenager or when you're in your early 20s,

16:13 no matter who you are, it's pretty easy to be cocky.

16:16 But it's even easier to be cocky when you're in the major leagues.

16:19 You've got this arm that is just incredible.

16:21 It's almost bionic.

16:22 How hard is it to stay humble?

16:25 To where you stick to the grind and actually keep working hard at that age

16:29 when you have that much ability?

16:30 I'm sure it can get away from you for me.

16:33 Like I said before, though, my goal was to be the best ever.

16:36 So the working hard didn't stop because I knew to get to that platform,

16:41 to get up there with the elite, the best of the best,

16:43 that I was going to have to keep working.

16:46 There was, there was no just cruising into this, not doing anything.

16:50 So for me, I was cocky, but I was humble at the same time.

16:56 And I think that was just because of the way that my life had gone up to that point, right?

17:00 I knew what it was like to be on the other side of that or not get what you want,

17:06 or just be in a space you don't want to be.

17:09 So I appreciated where I was and it was, I don't know, man.

17:13 It was, when you get up to the, you get that call, you're in the big leagues

17:16 and you're looking around and you're playing with guys that you've watched on TV.

17:19 And all of a sudden, your jersey's hanging right next to him and the locker right next to him.

17:24 It's a pretty overwhelming feeling, but that alone,

17:29 I think if you step back and just take a look at it,

17:31 that'll keep you working hard in itself because it's like, I want to stay here.

17:35 Not only am I here, but I want to stay here and I want to be the cream of the crop that's here.

17:39 And to get that, and I'll say, well, I guess one other thing too,

17:42 is the guys around me were working hard.

17:44 I mean, you know, those guys that get to the big leagues and stay there,

17:47 it's not by accident.

17:48 And, you know, for the most part, almost on every team I played with,

17:52 the guys that were the best in the room, worked hard in the gym,

17:57 in the cage, on the field, extra work.

17:59 And maybe that was just the path that I was on or the people that I was around,

18:03 but I'm thankful for it because it gave me a chance to see what they did to stay there,

18:06 so I could follow in their footsteps.

18:08 Yeah, I'm glad you talked about staying there,

18:10 because that's one thing that people fail to realize when they're looking at baseball players is,

18:14 okay, it's probably the hardest sport on the planet to get to the upper echelon,

18:18 because there's so many minor league levels, and to actually make it to the major leagues is incredible,

18:23 but there are guys that make it to the major leagues for a weekend,

18:26 and then they never see major league action again for the rest of their lives.

18:29 And so being able to stick around in a major league clubhouse is,

18:32 it's kind of its own set of challenges and talents.

18:35 But for you, it all kind of changed, and you go into this in very great detail in your book,

18:40 which everybody on this podcast, make sure you go and grab the book.

18:42 It will be in the show notes, the link to it, so you can go pick it up yourself.

18:45 But it was game one of the 2000 National League Division Series at home against Atlanta.

18:50 On the other side, you got Greg Maddox, and at the time he is the Greg Maddox at that time.

18:55 He's still one of the greatest pitchers in baseball, but in your words, in that game, what happened?

19:01 You know, it's funny because we talk, you talk about the Braves, and here I go.

19:05 My childhood team, I'm pitching against my childhood hero, Greg Maddox.

19:08 All these things are lining up for me, like the stars are aligning, right?

19:13 It just seems like I was, this is destiny, I'm supposed to be here.

19:16 You know, we go up and put six runs against Greg Maddox, which is unheard of in those

19:21 types of situations, because like you said, he was the guy then.

19:24 And for me, I could just keep telling myself, just pitch a good game.

19:29 I don't have to do anything extra, I don't have to try harder, it doesn't matter,

19:32 just get out here, throw strikes, let the defense work, and here we go.

19:35 And then all of a sudden, you know, a third inning, I threw a pitch that just didn't quite feel right.

19:40 And it really wasn't even that bad of a pitch.

19:44 I've went back and watched a lot of it here recently.

19:46 Mike Bethini, who was our catcher all year, had cut his hand with a hunting knife right

19:51 before the playoffs started.

19:52 So he couldn't play, and we brought in a catcher by the name of Carlos Hernandez,

19:56 a great guy, older guy, veteran guy, but he really just hadn't caught me that much.

20:00 And sometimes when I would try to throw a fastball to the inside corner to a righty,

20:03 I would come across, I stepped across my body, and I would cut it sometimes,

20:07 and it would just, you know, it would cut, and it would cut at 94, 95 miles an hour,

20:11 and sometimes cut more than others.

20:13 And if you haven't, you know, if you didn't catch me all year, you might not know.

20:16 Anyway, I have one cut, and it gets away from him.

20:18 And, but in my mind, I felt like, oh my gosh, I just threw a wild pitch on national TV.

20:23 And then it felt like things just started to unravel.

20:26 I bounced a curve ball, I'm out there, I'm trying to slow things down,

20:30 but I'm not able to, I'm using all my keys, mechanic-wise,

20:34 stay back, all the things that always got me back on track, and nothing seemed to be working,

20:37 and it just started spiraling out of control.

20:40 I started bouncing balls off the backstop, and at the time, I had no idea what was going on.

20:46 I didn't even know what the word "the yips" meant.

20:48 I didn't really know what anxiety meant.

20:51 I was just young and full of, you know, here I am, I'm supposed to be here,

20:55 I want to be a Hall of Famer, and those type of things.

20:58 So, at the time, to be honest, I was in shock because I really didn't know what was going on,

21:05 and that's just, you know, it was tough to swallow, and then it happened again.

21:09 The next game, I started again against the Mets.

21:10 And that's when I knew, okay, maybe there's something wrong here, you know,

21:14 it's not just a mechanical flaw that I can fix in a heartbeat.

21:17 When the book, you referred to it by many names, and you obviously said the yips just there,

21:21 but you referred to it as the monster, the thing, you know, the phenomenon.

21:25 And so, the thing is, if you've been a baseball fan for any length of time,

21:29 you've seen this happen with other players, and you pointed out in the book,

21:31 you have features like Steve Blass and Mark Wollers.

21:34 You've got infielders, Steve Sacks and Chuck Knoblock.

21:36 I remember growing up watching Chuck Knoblock wondering like,

21:39 "Dude, it's just from second base.

21:40 Just throw it to first, like what's your problem?"

21:42 But even catchers who, you know, obviously, they have a very important job

21:46 being able to throw runners out of second base and kind of control the running game,

21:49 but like Mackie Sasser and Gary Bennett, Jr.

21:51 But for you, looking back now, now that you've had some time to kind of marinate

21:55 on what that time period was like, can you better understand now,

21:59 or even identify what exactly it was?

22:02 Man, I mean, it's really, you know, to just try to

22:07 swallow this up and make it put it.

22:10 I mean, it's the losing, your confidence has gone.

22:13 Anxiety or emotional system, just your flight or fight response just takes over.

22:19 And your body starts to not listen.

22:22 There was times, you know, that I would look down,

22:24 and I couldn't feel the ball in my hand.

22:25 It was in my hand, but I couldn't feel it.

22:27 And, you know, when I moved it, so all that happened in 2000.

22:31 And in 2001, when spring training started, I feel like there was just more pressure than ever.

22:36 It was just, you know, all the headlines everywhere.

22:38 I couldn't get away from it.

22:40 And the thought of having to throw would give me anxiety at the time.

22:44 And, I mean, it's crazy because, you know, I would sit there and I'd think,

22:48 "Hey, you know, what am I-- I'm not afraid of this."

22:50 And I really felt like I wasn't.

22:52 Like, I'm not afraid of what is this?

22:53 And all of a sudden, my heart would just start racing 100 miles an hour

22:55 when I'm sitting in my office thinking about pitching.

22:58 And it was like your emotional system gets out of control

23:01 to where you can't control it and nothing-- there's nothing you're doing will work.

23:06 It's just-- it's awful.

23:08 And I-- you know, my heart goes out to anybody who's dealing with anxiety issues

23:12 because it can just debilitate you.

23:14 I mean, no matter-- anything you've done for your whole life,

23:16 it doesn't matter. It can just completely shut you down.

23:18 When if you've never experienced anxiety,

23:20 like I have friends that have struggled with anxiety

23:22 and I personally have never had that,

23:23 but whenever they describe it, I mean, it absolutely sounds awful.

23:27 It's like I could think of a million other things I would rather do

23:30 than to go through what you're going through at that time

23:32 and to have the lights and the national attention

23:35 and the expectations of your teammates on top of your shoulders as well.

23:38 I'm sure that would be very, very difficult.

23:40 But you've talked about this and I've heard other interviews before,

23:42 but, you know, the world-famous legendary Tony LaRusa,

23:45 he said that one of his biggest regrets in his career in baseball,

23:49 which is decades long,

23:51 was starting you in game one of the 2000 NLDS.

23:54 Your normal catcher that you mentioned, Mike Matheny,

23:56 he couldn't catch you that game

23:59 because of the cut he had on his hand from the gift he got.

24:02 You have the 6.0 lead by the third inning.

24:05 Like you could have lost focus, you could have kept focus.

24:07 But I guess the question is,

24:09 is do you think that any of those things ended up mattering in the end?

24:13 Or do you feel like, you know, the thing, the monster, the phenomenon?

24:17 Do you feel like it was coming for you, regardless of any of those other circumstances?

24:21 I think it was coming, you know, and this is,

24:24 listen, hindsight is undefeated, you know, but looking back at the time,

24:29 I had just one pitcher of the month for September

24:34 and I was pitching the best I had pitched all year.

24:36 I was ready for that game.

24:37 There wasn't, you know, I understand that he regrets it,

24:39 but who's to say it doesn't happen if I pitch game two or game three or anywhere else, right?

24:45 It's all you look back and you speculate and you, who knows, right?

24:48 Or if Mike was catching, does he catch some of those balls and I win the game,

24:52 but does it happen the next year?

24:53 You know, I don't know.

24:54 So instead of wasting all my energy or spending too much time down that rabbit hole,

24:59 I try to look at it like it is what it is.

25:01 And I have to deal with it and move forward and figure out how to,

25:05 how to be me and how to get past it.

25:07 Absolutely.

25:08 And so the thing for you is obviously you were at the top of the world.

25:12 You were being compared to Sandy Kofax and you had a lot of things.

25:15 You had a lot of expectations on you.

25:17 So for you, what was it like going from being in the majors,

25:20 being compared to world famous Hall of Famers,

25:23 only to find yourself all the way back in rookie ball within a very short period of time?

25:28 It destroyed me.

25:30 And, you know, one of the biggest things or I'll say mistakes that I made back then was I thought

25:36 that baseball was what made me who I was, not just what I did as a job.

25:40 I really identified with the whole baseball stigma.

25:45 And once baseball was taken away from me, I really had no idea who I was.

25:49 I was completely lost.

25:50 It's the hardest thing I ever went through.

25:54 But honestly, I'm better for it now because I understand now that what you do for a living,

26:01 whether it's baseball or something other than baseball, it's just what you do for a living.

26:05 It doesn't make you who you are.

26:06 If you lose it, it doesn't have to take your identity away.

26:09 So I've learned so much going through it and working with Harvey Dorfman

26:13 and all the things that he's taught me.

26:14 You know, it's brought me to where I am now and it's made me who I am now.

26:19 And I can actually say, you know, I appreciate it.

26:22 Now, would I have loved to see what would have happened to the

26:24 21-year-old pitcher if that never happened to me?

26:27 Of course, I'd love to see what that career would look like.

26:30 But it didn't happen.

26:31 And so, like I said before, instead of wondering or thinking,

26:35 "Man, I wish or I could have and having regrets."

26:38 And the "whoa" was me. I try to stay away from that.

26:39 I think, you know what, I wouldn't have met my wife.

26:41 I wouldn't have my kids.

26:42 You know, our past happened for a reason and I am where I am for a reason.

26:47 So I've tried to appreciate it.

26:48 I think that's a very healthy perspective because most people,

26:51 I mean, we all know people like this.

26:53 They just lament the hand they were dealt.

26:56 And everything about their life is, "Oh, it is woe is me."

26:59 And they just want everybody to know about their sad story.

27:02 But you took your sad story and turned it into something literally legendary.

27:06 And so obviously, your story was going from being a pitcher,

27:09 going all the way back down, trying to figure yourself out,

27:11 not being able to do so, but then reinventing yourself as a position player.

27:16 So I guess the question is, literally, why even try to reinvent yourself as a position player?

27:22 Why not just quit?

27:23 I mean, that would have been the reasonable thing.

27:25 Everybody would have understood it.

27:26 Hey, man, you gave it your best shot.

27:28 The organization gave it their best shot.

27:30 It just didn't work out.

27:31 But why not just quit?

27:32 You know, at the time I was 25 years old, I really didn't know what I was going to do

27:37 without the game because it was all I knew.

27:40 And some of the stuff I went through as a child, baseball saved me then too.

27:45 It was always a place I went for inner peace.

27:47 And it was just kind of like my arena.

27:49 So in a way, I did quit, right?

27:52 I walked into Tony's office when I was a pitcher in '05 and I said,

27:55 "Hey, I can't do this anymore.

27:57 I've given this everything I have, but what it takes for me to come out here

28:01 and compete day in and day out the 23 hours around the game

28:05 or around the time that I got to be here is the most frustrating

28:09 and the hardest thing that I've ever been through."

28:10 And it really felt like that.

28:13 And I understood that it was starting to change my relationships with my friends,

28:16 with my family.

28:17 It was changing who I was.

28:18 And I tried to look at it from the perspective of

28:22 is if this is what it's going to be like for the next five years,

28:25 or six years, or eight years, or whatever was going to come of that.

28:28 And this is what it's going to take for me to compete.

28:30 I don't think it's worth it.

28:31 It's not healthy.

28:32 I started to not feel like myself whatsoever.

28:36 So I walked in and said, "Hey, I can't do this anymore."

28:38 And Tony looked up at me and he's like, "Are you sure?

28:42 Why don't you take a day?"

28:42 And I said, "I'm positive.

28:44 I don't need a day."

28:45 And I walked out and I went home.

28:46 And then Scott Boor has called and said, "Hey, what do you think about being an outfielder?"

28:52 And I remember at the time, I kind of thought he was being a jerk almost,

28:55 because it was so hard for me to walk away from the game.

28:59 And it took every ounce of courage that I possibly had to just say,

29:04 "Okay, I'm finally going to not do this anymore."

29:06 And I didn't even know if I was going to be able to do that,

29:08 but I got to that point.

29:09 And when Scott called and asked me that,

29:11 I felt like nobody hearing me like I just retired.

29:14 Like this is it.

29:15 I'm done.

29:15 But then I started to walk around the house

29:17 and I started to allow myself to visualize myself working my way back as a hitter.

29:23 And then I got to the point where I visualized myself hitting a home run

29:26 back in the big leagues as a position player.

29:28 And this overwhelming warmth feeling came over me.

29:32 And I felt like I'm going to do this.

29:35 This is going to happen.

29:36 And I immediately picked up the phone.

29:37 I called Scott back and I was like, "I'm in."

29:39 And he said, "I'm going to call the Cardinals and we'll be calling you back."

29:43 And Walt Jockey at the time, he was the general manager,

29:45 called me back within three minutes.

29:47 And he was like, "Rick, if you're in, we're in.

29:49 Show up tomorrow and you'll be an outfielder."

29:50 I said, "Yes, sir. I'll see you tomorrow."

29:52 And then off my outfield career win.

29:54 And I mean, that's just an incredible story.

29:56 Even just kind of getting the backstory with Walt and Scott Boris,

29:59 just kind of figuring out like, obviously you still have these raw talents

30:03 that can be kind of pointed in another direction.

30:05 But you were on a long road.

30:07 I mean, that just didn't,

30:08 you didn't automatically become a majorly outfielder that day.

30:10 It was still a long road for you, a lot of development,

30:12 but you showed a lot of promise the whole way through.

30:15 But your life and really the lives of most baseball fans

30:18 that were watching at the time changed actually on August 8th of 2007.

30:22 Everyone talks about August 9th, but on August 8th,

30:24 you got the call for the second time really in your life.

30:28 You got the call that you were going to the big leagues.

30:31 I mean, what was it like hearing your AAA manager, Chris Maloney,

30:34 tell you that you were on your way back to the big leagues,

30:37 but this time as an outfielder?

30:39 Well, it's funny because we were in Tacoma and our plane got delayed.

30:43 And so we were, let's say we were supposed to leave it like,

30:45 we had a day game that day. It was a Sunday, I believe.

30:47 So the flight was supposed to be at six. It got delayed.

30:51 Now we weren't leaving until midnight.

30:53 So everybody was just sitting in restaurants having something to eat.

30:56 He's like, "Hey, let's just all meet back at the terminal at,

30:58 you know, say 11.30."

31:00 And all of a sudden he walked into the restaurant that I was in,

31:02 and he said, "Hey, Bull, Tony just called,

31:06 and you're playing right field tomorrow in the big leagues."

31:08 So I looked at him, and I said, "You need to repeat that,

31:11 because I got to make sure I heard you right."

31:13 And it was incredible.

31:15 It felt like all the hard work that I had put into becoming an outfielder,

31:20 and it was a lot. Everything was starting to open.

31:24 You know, it was like, "Here are these doors opening again,

31:26 and I'm having a chance to go back to the big leagues.

31:29 And I'm going to be playing next to Jim Edmonds,

31:30 and a lot of my friends that I have up there."

31:33 And it's hard to put into words.

31:36 I wish I could do it, but I can't.

31:37 And then, you know, I get back in the first game.

31:42 You know, I end up hitting a home run in the seventh inning,

31:45 which was the most incredible feeling ever.

31:48 And it's another one. It was just moment after moment.

31:50 I remember I was... I called my...

31:51 At the time when I got... Chris, let me back up.

31:53 When Chris Maloney gave me the word that I was going back up,

31:56 so I called my mom, I called my wife.

31:58 My wife was in Memphis, which is our triple-a team, home city.

32:02 So she starts packing up the apartment.

32:04 We fly all night, we land at like seven in the morning,

32:07 and now we're driving to St. Louis.

32:08 I actually missed, like I got there a little bit late

32:13 when I walked into the clubhouse.

32:14 Everybody was there. The high fives, the hugs.

32:16 Everything that came with that moment, I think, would have been enough.

32:18 Honestly, would have been enough.

32:20 I could have not even played that night.

32:22 I mean, just as happy, just the way that went.

32:24 But I did play, and I ended up hitting that home run.

32:27 It was just absolutely incredible.

32:28 It's out of this world.

32:31 It's already really even imagined what that emotions could have been like,

32:34 because you can tell, like, and you can see this,

32:36 if you watch enough baseball,

32:38 you can tell when your teammates actually like a guy,

32:41 because you'll have a guy that does something incredible,

32:43 and literally the whole dugout loses their mind.

32:46 And then other times,

32:47 guys are kind of reserved in their energy and their excitement,

32:49 maybe because that guy's kind of a jerk.

32:51 But you could tell that the guys were genuinely happy for you.

32:54 Everyone in the organization was.

32:56 And the thing about it, Rick, is you could argue

32:58 that the moment you took the field,

33:00 the moment you ran to right field in the top of the first inning,

33:03 that you became a guy with a sports story

33:05 that was at least worth remembering.

33:07 But what you did in the bottom of the seventh inning,

33:10 turns you into a legend.

33:11 So after starting your career as a starting pitcher,

33:13 you claw your way back to the majors as an outfielder,

33:16 but in your first game back,

33:17 just like you said,

33:18 you hit a three run home run in your first game back.

33:21 So tell us about that particular app,

33:23 that tell us about the result.

33:25 What did you see and how did it all work out?

33:27 All right, so I mean, my first at bat,

33:31 my member, I got in the box,

33:32 and you would think after all the things

33:34 that I've been through up to that moment,

33:35 that I wouldn't even have any nerves left.

33:37 But I was as nervous as I'd ever been.

33:40 And I was strange, and I was laughing at it.

33:42 I'm like, what am I nervous about?

33:44 Like who cares, you know?

33:45 I swung at the first pit.

33:48 I mean, I was swinging before the pitcher like oilable.

33:50 There was no way I could even sit there and take a pit.

33:52 It was pretty funny.

33:53 But I popped it up, then I ended up striking out.

33:56 And I felt like it was like,

33:58 you could almost feel that like,

33:59 is this real?

34:00 Can he hit?

34:01 You know, what is this, right?

34:02 And then that seventh inning at bat,

34:06 I ended up in a two one count,

34:08 Doug Brokow was pitching, and he threw me a slider,

34:11 kind of down in the zone.

34:12 I got a lot of barrel on it,

34:14 but I kind of had to let go,

34:15 and I kind of just top hand flicked it.

34:17 We call it walking the dog in baseball,

34:19 like if you were to flip a yo-yo

34:20 and kind of walk that top hand forward.

34:22 So when I hit it, I knew I had a chance.

34:26 I didn't know if it was a homer yet or not, though.

34:28 So I dropped the bat, I'm running,

34:29 I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I think I just got it.

34:31 And as I'm running, I'm looking at the ball,

34:33 looking at the right field,

34:34 or looking at the wall,

34:35 trying to judge where this thing is going to land.

34:36 And once I knew it was a home run,

34:39 it just my emotions exploded.

34:42 I couldn't, I went numb, I couldn't feel my legs.

34:45 I wish if I could go back,

34:48 I would run around the bases a lot slower than I did,

34:51 but I had so much adrenaline pumping for me

34:53 that I couldn't even slow it down to enjoy it.

34:55 I felt like I ran 100 miles an hour,

34:56 and when I touched home plate and I was walking towards it,

35:00 and I'm going towards the dugout,

35:01 I could, the fans were going crazy.

35:03 I could feel the ground shaking.

35:05 Like it was, it was so surreal.

35:07 Looking at the dugout,

35:09 you're seeing everybody high five and each other

35:11 and waiting for you to get there.

35:12 It's just an unbelievable moment.

35:14 And then a curtain call from the fans,

35:16 you know, if I could have sat down and wrote a script

35:18 out of how I wanted this to play out,

35:20 I couldn't have wrote it any better than it played out.

35:22 - When, to be honest, me going back to even watching that game,

35:26 I remember, because it's kind of those same questions,

35:28 I struck out, he looks a little bit, a little bit amped up.

35:30 And I remember that swing,

35:32 I remember when you took that swing for the home run,

35:33 I was like, ah, he got out in front of it.

35:35 That's off the end of the batter or something like that.

35:37 And then whenever the camera just kept panning back

35:40 and panning back and panning back,

35:41 I could remember me sitting there like, wait a minute,

35:43 wait a minute, wait a minute.

35:44 And then it's like, oh my gosh, it's out of here.

35:46 Like it's just that incredible sense

35:47 of how could this possibly happen?

35:49 And it was in that moment, everyone's just so elated

35:52 and so excited, they forget about the pitches

35:54 that went to the backstop and the playoffs.

35:55 They just forget about all these other moments

35:57 because at that moment,

35:58 you were a major league outfielder hitting home runs.

36:01 And so that was an incredible moment.

36:02 That's certainly a favorite moment for Cardinals fans everywhere.

36:06 But that's not actually my favorite highlight of your career.

36:09 So you probably know what's coming.

36:10 My favorite highlight of your career

36:11 was actually May 6th of 2008.

36:14 So you're playing against Colorado Rockies in Denver

36:17 and you had two outfield assists and a home run,

36:19 but no one cares about the home run.

36:20 But you have two outfield assists and a home run

36:23 and a game to help the Rockies lose that game,

36:25 help the Cardinals win six to five.

36:27 But the throws that you made,

36:29 both of them were from either deep center

36:31 or deep left center in a ballpark

36:33 that has a gigantic outfield.

36:34 If you've ever guys listening to this,

36:36 that's ever seen the ballpark there in Denver.

36:38 But you nailed both of these runners in the game at third base.

36:42 Both throws were literally impossible.

36:44 There's there's no way possible

36:45 that those throws can be so on the on the point

36:48 and on the mark, but they were.

36:50 So what do you remember about that specific game

36:53 and kind of take us through what those throws were like?

36:55 Yeah. So the first one,

36:58 you had a runner on first and second, the guy on second

37:01 is Willie Tavares.

37:02 So as an outfielder,

37:03 when you're looking at the play ahead of you,

37:05 I mean, we have one out.

37:06 So the play would be,

37:08 I usually set up in center field

37:10 at a point where if I have to go backwards,

37:14 there's no way I can throw the guy out at third.

37:16 I need to throw the ball to second

37:17 to keep the runner at first at first.

37:19 When Todd Helton was hitting, right?

37:23 So now you're in between like,

37:24 maybe I need to have a step or two back anyway,

37:27 because it is Todd Helton.

37:28 He's got a lot of power.

37:29 He can hit the gaps.

37:30 We don't want to let him get to third

37:32 or the runner from score first score.

37:34 So now I'm maybe a step or two back,

37:36 then I would normally be and Willie Tavares

37:39 is one of the fastest guys in the league at the time.

37:40 So it's like, all right.

37:41 So even if I come three steps in,

37:43 maybe I shouldn't throw it to third.

37:44 Anyway, the ball was hit and I backed up,

37:48 kept backing up and then as I started to come forward,

37:51 I don't know, I just had this like feeling

37:54 that I felt like there's, I got you a third.

37:55 There's no way.

37:56 I know I shouldn't try to make this throw,

37:58 but I'm going to because there's something inside of me

37:59 telling me that this needs to happen.

38:01 And I just, I mean, I just threw the thing

38:04 as hard as I could and luckily,

38:06 Troy gloss played it perfectly.

38:08 I act like it wasn't coming and the ball was a perfect strike.

38:12 You know, I think that's the messed up part about the yips.

38:14 That was more accurate from 300 feet than I was 60 foot,

38:16 60 feet.

38:17 Hey, as long as you're accurate from somewhere,

38:19 like I don't think it really matters.

38:21 Nah, there you go.

38:21 But yeah, it was incredible.

38:23 And I remember watching it and I looked and, you know,

38:26 if you watch the highlight, you see Willie Tavares

38:28 turn around and look like, how did that just happen?

38:30 There's no way that happened.

38:31 And I know I talked to him after it.

38:32 And they're like, yeah, I got,

38:33 they tried to tell me that I wasn't running.

38:35 He's like, but I was, I was running as hard as I could.

38:37 But everybody was like, did you not run?

38:39 Like, what just happened?

38:40 But it was incredible, you know?

38:42 And then I get to the dugout and Tony walks down

38:45 and Tony LaRouce the fashion, you know,

38:47 because he doesn't like giving away extra outs or extra bases.

38:50 And, you know, if you watch the highlight,

38:52 if that throws not right on the money,

38:53 he's probably safe at third.

38:54 And now there's runners at second and third.

38:56 So he's like, hey, that was a great throw.

38:59 But don't ever eff and do that.

39:00 That's the thing is because it just was so against convention,

39:05 because yes, you got to keep that runner at first base.

39:08 And with Tavares at second,

39:10 it's like anything on the ground that makes it to the outfield,

39:12 he's probably scoring at home.

39:14 And so yeah, I mean, and I think that was the throw that,

39:17 if Troy Gloss hadn't been standing there,

39:18 it probably hits third base like that ball from on a line,

39:22 probably lands right on top of third base.

39:24 But that wasn't even probably arguably the best throw

39:27 you made that night.

39:28 So kind of walk us through the second one.

39:29 All right.

39:30 So then the next one, there's nobody on

39:32 and Quentin Nia, who is their second baseman, was up,

39:36 and he's quick too.

39:36 And I was playing.

39:37 So he's hitting left-handed.

39:39 I was on the right side of second base.

39:41 He's righty.

39:42 I'm playing, took him to pole on that right side.

39:44 Well, he shoots the ball to the left center gap.

39:47 So now I take off running as fast as I can.

39:49 And there's sometimes in that those moments

39:52 where you could just almost give the guy a triple.

39:55 So you would almost, I mean, you would run hard,

39:57 but you might run at that 85% hard to get there.

40:00 You're going to give him the triple.

40:01 Make sure you get a good throw.

40:02 Keep him at third.

40:03 But I was the same thing.

40:04 I was hauling butt over there and I'm thinking,

40:06 you know what, I got this guy.

40:07 And in this situation, you do have a free reign

40:09 where you can let it go.

40:10 Because the pitcher's going to back up third.

40:11 If you overthrow or you off throw,

40:14 there's nobody on base.

40:16 You really have nothing to lose in this situation.

40:17 There was two outs.

40:18 So I took off.

40:20 I get there and I literally threw the ball as far as I could.

40:25 And again, Troy played it perfectly and quit knee.

40:28 I think he slid a little bit too early

40:30 if you watch the highlight,

40:32 which we were able to get him out.

40:33 But anyway, it was a great throw.

40:34 Troy made a great tag.

40:35 And it was, you know, I will say,

40:38 I always played it pretty humble in the outfield.

40:41 And I think that's one of the times that I wish I would have just,

40:44 I don't know, shot a fake laser or a fake cannon

40:48 or I don't know, bow and arrow or something.

40:49 Because it was one of those moments that it kind of called forward.

40:52 It was the second one of the game.

40:53 I'd hit a home run.

40:54 I mean, I'm not going to have a better game than that.

40:56 So I kind of wish I might have showed off a little bit,

41:00 but you know what it is, what it is.

41:01 So were those your favorite throws from your outfield career?

41:05 Is there another one that sticks out to you?

41:06 Yeah, I would say the one.

41:08 There's one more.

41:08 There's one with Drew Storren.

41:11 He was our closer.

41:15 We were tied.

41:19 So let me think here.

41:20 We were, so we were in the ninth inning to tie game.

41:23 This is a day game.

41:24 We were in Cincinnati.

41:25 I actually had a flight home to go see my family

41:28 because the next day we had an off day.

41:29 So in Cincinnati, there's not very many late flights.

41:32 So if this game goes extra innings,

41:33 I'm probably not going to catch a flight.

41:36 So fly ball hit to deep right center, worse going back.

41:39 He kind of misses it.

41:40 It hits the wall.

41:41 I'm there to back him up.

41:42 As I'm grabbing this ball, I'm looking at the,

41:45 I can see the runner out of the corner of my eye

41:46 and I see him start to speed up.

41:48 And I'm like, OK, here we go.

41:50 So I'm hauling butt to grab it.

41:52 And it's funny because in the split second,

41:55 I'm thinking to myself, you know, if I don't throw this guy out,

41:58 you know, maybe with the game's over, we probably,

42:01 you know, whatever.

42:02 We'll win.

42:02 If I throw him out, we might play into extra innings

42:07 and I'm never catching this flight.

42:08 I'm not going home.

42:09 But I just couldn't do that to my voice.

42:11 So, you know what?

42:12 I just let this thing go again and perfect throw.

42:15 Got him out of third.

42:16 And, you know, it's just one of those, you know,

42:18 one of those great throws that happened in the bleak of an instant.

42:21 And it's just fun, you know.

42:23 That's all.

42:24 Well, I didn't know the backstory that you had to,

42:26 you had a plane to catch.

42:27 But hey, if more outfielders just threw like they had a plane to catch,

42:30 maybe there would be a few more outfield assists.

42:32 We can make that happen.

42:33 But you had a very interesting quote from your book.

42:36 It was kind of after this time period.

42:38 And it was this.

42:38 And the conversation began about my arm again

42:41 and whether it was the best outfield arm in the league.

42:43 And I couldn't help but smile at such a thing.

42:46 This was the same arm that had almost run me out of the league.

42:49 The same arm that had inspired so many career obituaries.

42:53 So, give us a little bit more context on that quote

42:56 and why you felt that way.

42:57 You know, because, listen, I was blessed with a good arm.

43:01 And, you know, and it's true, right?

43:04 It almost, I was almost out of the game because of it.

43:06 And then now of a sudden, I'm getting praised for it again.

43:09 Yeah, in a different way because I'm in the outfield,

43:11 but I'm as accurate as anyone.

43:14 You know, a lot of times when you grade people, you'll say,

43:16 "Hey, it's a plus, plus arm, plus accuracy."

43:19 And a lot, you know, when we would always joke about it

43:21 with our outfield coaches, you'd be like,

43:22 "You're like plus, plus, plus."

43:23 We don't even mess with you.

43:24 Right.

43:25 So, it's fun.

43:27 It's neat.

43:27 You know what?

43:28 It's felt like redemption.

43:29 That's what it felt like, right?

43:30 Like my arm abandoned me or whether you want to say

43:32 it's the arm of the brain, but it's all connected in a way.

43:35 And now of a sudden, it's what's, you know,

43:36 one of my weapons and one of my things

43:38 that are keeping me in the league.

43:40 It's something that I worked at every day.

43:41 You know, I go out there, make my throws every single day,

43:45 everything I could do to stay on top of that.

43:47 And, you know, it became, now it became great again.

43:50 It was awesome.

43:51 Well, one thing that we talk about a lot at Undaunted Life

43:54 is spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.

43:57 And so your life, if there's one word to describe,

44:00 your life up to this point, I think resilience

44:01 would be fairly appropriate.

44:03 You've showed a tremendous amount of physical resilience,

44:05 obviously overcoming a lot of injuries,

44:07 overcoming the things that you needed to overcome

44:09 in order to be a major leader and play every day.

44:11 Obviously, the mental resilience side, you had the yips,

44:14 you had that thing that was just kind of always there,

44:16 but you still found a way to be able to operate

44:18 at a high level at something that most people

44:21 would never even experience.

44:22 But one thing that I haven't heard you talk about a lot

44:24 in interviews and didn't really see a lot in the book

44:27 is I haven't heard you talk a lot about the spiritual side

44:30 of what you went through and kind of what you're still going

44:32 through as part of your upbringing, part of your life.

44:35 Do you feel like there was a spiritual side to what you went

44:39 through and how you were able to come out on the other side

44:41 of it?

44:44 Yes and no.

44:46 I think when I went through the yips, I was mad.

44:50 I felt like if we're going to say, hey,

44:56 God controls everything or whatnot,

44:58 my idea of what that was and whatnot, frankly,

45:01 I was pretty [inaudible].

45:03 Felt like, why would anybody have to suffer this way?

45:06 That's what I felt like.

45:07 And then as I went through this, I just

45:10 started to feel like there's a God in everyone, I feel like.

45:15 And we're all in control of it.

45:16 You can't just sit back and think that good things

45:19 are going to happen to you because you pray or good things

45:21 are going to happen to you because you go to church or whatever.

45:23 I feel like you have to make it happen.

45:25 It's up to you.

45:26 You put the energy out that you want to receive.

45:28 You put one step in front of the other,

45:30 treat people the way you want to be treated or whatever

45:32 your values are, et cetera.

45:34 But I feel like you have to make it happen.

45:36 And I think going through the years,

45:38 it brought me to that moment and helped

45:40 me understand, at least for me, that's the path I want to be on.

45:45 I appreciate your perspective on that

45:47 and sharing that with us.

45:48 One thing I want to transition into now is just fatherhood.

45:51 So for me, I'm excited.

45:52 I just announced to everybody last week

45:54 that my wife and I are pregnant.

45:56 We're in a third trimester.

45:57 We're about to have a baby boy, Lord willing in May.

46:00 And so we're very excited.

46:01 But for you, you've got two sons.

46:03 You've got Declan and Riker.

46:04 So what is it like having two boys?

46:07 What's it like being a father to a couple of boys?

46:10 And are they trending to be athletes like dad?

46:12 Kind of give us an idea of what Declan and Riker are up to.

46:15 It's awesome and scary at the same time.

46:18 I feel like you're--

46:19 I mean, I think everybody has this internal question, right?

46:22 Are you doing fatherhood?

46:23 Am I doing it right?

46:25 Am I making them help helping them find their passion?

46:27 Am I putting them in the right situations

46:29 to be successful?

46:31 But no, it's fantastic.

46:33 Declan, he's my older one.

46:35 He's left-handed.

46:36 He's just starting to get into baseball.

46:38 He's very smart.

46:40 He's definitely a cerebral type of kid.

46:43 And my younger one, Riker, is right-handed.

46:46 Loves all sports.

46:47 He's my shadow.

46:49 Fish and golf.

46:50 You name it.

46:50 Wherever I'm going, he wants to go.

46:53 He absolutely loves sports.

46:55 He's been into sports since the day he was born.

46:57 It seems like.

46:59 So it's fun.

47:00 It's neat.

47:00 They grow up in the same household.

47:02 I'm sure you've heard this time and time again.

47:03 But they're just-- they're different.

47:05 I mean, they are.

47:05 They have the same rules, the same parents.

47:07 But they're just-- they're different kids.

47:09 It's fun.

47:09 It's neat.

47:10 They're seven and nine.

47:11 So they're 17 months apart.

47:13 So that's fun, too.

47:15 I feel like we're at the ball field or the soccer fields

47:17 right now almost every day a week, but I enjoy it.

47:20 It's fun being out there to give back to the kids,

47:23 teach them all the things that I've learned or picked up

47:25 along the way or that somebody taught me.

47:27 And I like it.

47:28 I don't know what life would be without them.

47:30 And congratulations on-- for you, too.

47:34 Man, that's exciting.

47:35 Well, thank you very much.

47:36 I mean, I'm nervous to a certain degree,

47:38 but it's like, hey, I'm not the youngest guy in the world.

47:40 I've had some life experiences.

47:42 So I'm pretty sure I could keep this thing alive.

47:44 And I'm pretty sure I could at least point him

47:45 in the right direction initially.

47:46 But a quote that I love from your book,

47:48 these are actually two quotes that are on adjacent pages.

47:51 But you say this, you can't pick your father.

47:54 You're assigned a father.

47:55 He was my father, but nowhere did it

47:57 say I had to be his son, not forever.

48:00 And so for me reading your book and rereading your book,

48:03 Rick, I mean, if baseball is the primary theme of your book,

48:07 your tumultuous relationship with your father

48:10 would be kind of a close secondary theme.

48:12 So you talk about him a lot in the book.

48:14 And I appreciate how much you talk about him.

48:16 But it seems like every good and every bad thing

48:20 in your life is just one degree of separation away

48:23 from your father.

48:25 Does that make sense?

48:26 Yeah, it does.

48:28 And that was part of the story.

48:29 I mean, it is, and I think the day my first son was born,

48:37 and I just looked at him, it just really--

48:40 it helped me understand the quote you said.

48:43 Like, I realized that we would never

48:45 have a relationship again, because some of the things that

48:47 happened, I just understood there's

48:50 no way I could do that to my son.

48:52 So it's interesting.

48:54 And it's helped me just be a better father.

48:57 I'm very close to my boys.

48:58 And there's nothing greater.

49:01 It's the best gift that life has all.

49:03 Well, and I mean, I love how you're

49:05 using some of the things from your life.

49:06 And I won't spoil it for anybody.

49:07 Obviously, you can read in the book,

49:09 because you go into great detail.

49:10 But you're allowing those things to inform your relationship

49:12 with your boys now, which I think

49:13 is an incredibly healthy thing to do.

49:15 Now, for any of us that maybe don't know,

49:17 and I certainly don't know, do you currently

49:19 have a relationship with your dad today?

49:21 I mean, you kind of just mentioned

49:23 that may not be a possibility.

49:24 Do you think it ever could be a possibility?

49:26 No.

49:28 No, I've closed that door.

49:29 There's just some things that are unforgivable.

49:31 And, you know, quite frankly, I'm a better person

49:34 without them in my life.

49:35 And that's just where it needs to be.

49:37 I need to do what's right for me and for my family

49:41 and what I think is right for my kids.

49:43 So like I said, I closed that door a long time ago

49:46 and just moved on.

49:48 Fair enough.

49:49 So for you, obviously, since you go into so much detail

49:52 in the book, I love it because it kind of gives us insight

49:55 into your brain and how that works

49:57 and how you're gonna be acting and treating your family.

50:01 Do you think that your relationship with your dad

50:03 or lack thereof now affects how you view God?

50:06 I'm not sure.

50:11 That's a good question.

50:12 You know, I didn't grow up in a household who went to church.

50:16 So at an age, you know, and at age when I got curious,

50:18 I just started reading the Bible

50:20 because I was curious about it.

50:21 And I wanted to know and understand.

50:24 But, you know, I don't know, that's a great question.

50:27 I've never really tried to look at it like that.

50:29 Honestly, once I closed that door to my father,

50:32 I don't, he don't even come into any kind of thought

50:36 of anything, to be honest.

50:37 - Sure.

50:38 Well, to not belabor the point,

50:40 we'll move on in just a second.

50:41 That's one thing, the reason why I ask

50:42 is 'cause I've asked a similar question

50:44 to other guys in my life that had, you know,

50:46 guys that were first ballot hall of fame, bad dads.

50:49 I mean, just horrible guys for a lot of the same reasons

50:51 that your dad was horrible

50:52 when you're upbringing in.

50:54 Some of them have gotten to a good place of accepting.

50:56 Some of them have not.

50:57 But the thing that's kind of a good idea for all of them

51:00 to consider is how that affects, how they are as a father today,

51:04 which you've already kind of worked through that.

51:06 But in addition to that, some of these guys,

51:08 they really struggle to follow this Jesus guy

51:10 that may or may not have lived 2000 years ago

51:13 and their relationship with God

51:14 and kind of how they view things

51:16 because they're still so stuck on how,

51:19 how could a loving God have allowed, you know,

51:21 my dad to treat me that way or to treat my mom

51:23 that way or something like that.

51:24 And so that would be my encouragement to you, Rick,

51:26 as a guy that you barely know up to this point

51:29 is to maybe dig into that a little bit further

51:31 because the thing about it is is the God that I love

51:34 and the Jesus that I follow, you know,

51:36 he can cover all of those things

51:38 and he can give you the level of understanding

51:40 that you can't get from really any other worldview.

51:43 But don't worry, I'm done preaching, we'll move on.

51:45 So the thing that was interesting about your story

51:48 is in 2018, so just a couple of years ago,

51:51 there were rumblings that you were actually looking

51:54 at making a comeback again,

51:56 but not as an outfielder this time, but as a relief pitcher.

52:00 So going from a starting pitcher to an outfielder

52:02 and now a relief pitcher four years after your retirement.

52:06 So kind of give us an idea as to what the thought process

52:09 was there, what was kind of pulling you back to baseball,

52:12 why a relief pitcher, kind of how did all that work out?

52:15 - So I went and played in this game in Louisville,

52:19 where a bunch of retired guys go play against

52:22 some college guys and it's a little tournament

52:24 that we played in.

52:25 And I ended up pitching and inning.

52:27 And when I got up there and I started warming up,

52:30 you know, the anxiety wasn't anything,

52:32 it was less than I expected, to be honest.

52:34 And I just felt like I thought that I was,

52:37 I still had a great arm, I still have a great curve ball.

52:39 I felt like, you know what, that was really fun.

52:41 This might be kind of neat.

52:42 My kids never really got a chance to see me play.

52:45 This could be fun.

52:46 And when I was looking at the game of baseball,

52:48 you talk about big curve balls and high fast balls

52:50 was kind of, you know, it's where it's at right now.

52:53 I felt like I can do this.

52:54 And as a relief pitcher, you know, I understood too,

52:57 like if I'm coming in to get a, you know, a lefty out

53:00 or let's say it's two or three guys,

53:02 now it's the three person minimum,

53:04 they just change rules.

53:05 But still, you know, when you watch the game,

53:07 a lot of relief pitchers,

53:08 they might throw all sliders for the whole inning, right?

53:10 So I felt like even if it's a day

53:11 where I can't control my fastball

53:13 because when I went through the throwing stuff,

53:14 I could still always control the curve ball.

53:16 It was just the fastball that I had issues with.

53:19 I could do that.

53:20 I can change angles, I can change speeds.

53:22 I thought it would be really fun.

53:24 When I pitched in that game, I strained what I thought,

53:28 well, I thought I strained my flexor.

53:29 So I come home, Tim Brown, who wrote my book,

53:33 writes an article, you know, he gave me a call and was like,

53:35 "Hey man, what's going on?"

53:36 I seen that you pitched, what are you thinking?

53:37 I said, you know, it felt pretty good.

53:38 I might give this a shot.

53:40 And then it just kind of got announced, it went viral.

53:43 I come home, I start training, about a month later,

53:46 the elbow just wasn't getting better.

53:47 I end up going to take an MRI and they're like,

53:49 you know what, you tore it

53:51 and you need another Tommy John.

53:52 I've already had a Tommy John.

53:53 So I felt, I end up talking to Dr. Proletta,

53:57 who was the Cardinals doctor.

53:58 And I said, "Hey, I'm not gonna do a full Tommy John.

54:01 "I just can't do it.

54:02 "That's 12 to 18 months.

54:03 "I'm already 40 years old.

54:04 "I'll just bang the comeback.

54:05 "It's just not worth it at that point."

54:07 And he said, "Hey, there is a new surgery

54:09 "out there called a primary repair,

54:10 "where you could, if you're a candidate for it,

54:12 "if it tore in the right place,

54:13 "I'll have to take a look at the MRI.

54:14 "But you could be back in seven to eight months."

54:17 And at the time, I thought, "You know what, I can do that.

54:20 "I'll give that a shot,

54:21 "so I'm gonna need to get this elbow fixed anyway."

54:23 And, you know, I went through it.

54:25 And as I was going through that throwing program,

54:27 I ended up, I didn't end up straining the flexor

54:29 and I got hurt and where I was in the throwing program

54:32 compared to how much of the season was left.

54:34 It just mathematically,

54:36 there wasn't gonna be much left

54:37 if I had zero setbacks from that point.

54:39 And it just reminded me what being on the injured reserve

54:43 is all about, what being hurt and the rehab

54:45 and everything is part of the game that's not fun.

54:49 And I just kind of lost the itch.

54:50 I felt like, you know what,

54:51 there's no way I wanna have another surgery.

54:53 I'm a person that likes to go, fish, be outside, do stuff.

54:57 The thought of possibly even having

54:59 to have another surgery two years in a row.

55:01 It just really took the taste away from me.

55:04 And I just, you know, I felt like, you know what,

55:06 I think it's time to be dad and be here for these kids

55:09 and help them with their passions.

55:11 - Well, it's commendable that you could even consider that

55:13 because I mean, you're right.

55:15 In modern day baseball, I remember Sergio Romo,

55:17 I was at the 2012 World Series.

55:19 They basically won the World Series

55:21 because he threw a bunch of sliders.

55:22 I mean, he strikes out Miguel Cabrera

55:24 for goodness sakes to win the World Series in four games.

55:26 And the dude only threw sliders.

55:27 You knew what was coming and he still couldn't hit it.

55:29 So, but it's interesting.

55:31 I appreciate you sharing with us

55:32 kind of what that all looks like.

55:33 But the thing for you is,

55:34 you're not really out of the game of baseball at all.

55:36 You're still the family guy.

55:38 You're going to be there for your kiddos and your wife.

55:40 But you do have this burgeoning career as a broadcaster.

55:44 So you're going to be spending a lot of time on television

55:46 in support of the St. Louis Cardinals.

55:48 And so what's it like for you being in the booth

55:51 and or in the studio when you used to be out there on the grass?

55:54 - It's fun because you're still connected to the game.

55:57 And that's the part of it.

55:58 I feel like the game is still inside of me

55:59 and being able to be a part of it,

56:01 being able to be a part of the Cardinals organization

56:03 is a big deal for me.

56:05 And I raised my kids to be Cardinals fans.

56:08 We lived down here in South Florida,

56:10 but yeah, exactly.

56:11 We lived down here in South Florida,

56:12 but listen, the Cardinals are just, for me,

56:15 everything that I went through with them,

56:16 they drafted me, but just the Midwest people,

56:18 the fans, the way that they adore the team,

56:21 it's everything I think that it should be.

56:24 And I want them to be a part of that and understand it

56:28 because it's funny, you know, living down here in South Florida,

56:31 everybody moves from somewhere else to here, right?

56:34 So we don't have the traditions that St. Louis has.

56:36 So being able to bring them there and show them that,

56:39 see the sea of red, show them what that's all about

56:42 is incredible.

56:43 And for me to be, you know, just being able to still be

56:47 a part of the game and the booth,

56:48 give my opinion of what I'm seeing.

56:51 I think it's a unique situation that I'm in

56:53 because I did play both positions, right?

56:54 So I can tell you what I think that they're doing

56:57 or thinking or what they're trying to get done

56:59 and give you that perspective.

57:00 And there's nobody else out there that can do that.

57:02 So I've enjoyed it so far

57:04 and looking forward to the future as well.

57:06 - Well, if Cubs fans aren't already sick of this five guests

57:09 they're about to be because we are going to talk

57:10 about the 2020 Cardinals.

57:12 So the biggest off season need

57:15 that most people saw for the 2020 Cardinals

57:17 was getting an impact bat.

57:19 And they pretty much haven't addressed that.

57:21 I mean, this off season has been rather quiet.

57:24 They re-signed Adam Wainwright who's probably going to be,

57:26 you know, fourth or fifth side starter.

57:28 He got Matt Wieders who was re-signed,

57:30 but he's going to be Yadi or Melita's backup.

57:32 Probably the most significant thing they did this off season

57:34 was signing free agent pitcher from Korea,

57:36 Kwang Hyun Kim.

57:38 There were some other minor deals along the way.

57:40 They lose Ozuna to the Braves,

57:42 which I'm not terribly disappointed about

57:43 because that's another team that can pay for him

57:45 to be wildly inconsistent.

57:47 But essentially, at least on paper,

57:49 there were no big time signings or trades.

57:51 What exactly is the plan here, do you think?

57:54 - Well, you know, I feel like I laugh at that sometimes

57:57 because we were one series away from being in the world series.

58:00 - That's true, that's true.

58:01 - At some point it's like, well, what are we looking?

58:03 You know, why are we so mad here, right?

58:05 Like we put ourselves in a position to be really good.

58:09 You know, and when you look at the seasons

58:10 that some of the guys had when you go with Goldsmith,

58:13 like, you know, they really didn't perform up

58:15 to what we think that their potential will be.

58:17 And I'm not saying a young guy who's over performing,

58:19 I'm saying guys who've been in the league for a long time

58:20 and what we know they can do.

58:23 So I think when you take a look at that,

58:24 and then for me, when I look at the young guys

58:26 who just got playoff experience, right,

58:28 that's gonna make them better.

58:29 We got that experience, we almost got there.

58:32 We did sign the lefty pitcher, right?

58:33 How's that gonna look in a division

58:36 where there's some pretty good lefties

58:37 that we need to get out?

58:39 To me, when I look at it, I'm happy with where they are.

58:42 I mean, I feel like we should be happy with where we got.

58:44 And that was with the team that we have.

58:47 And why not come out and see these guys,

58:49 see what they can do with a little bit more experience

58:51 under their belt?

58:52 - Yeah, and there's some good guys that are in camp

58:54 that have some opportunities now

58:56 because with Ozuna leaving, the log jam in the outfield

58:59 has kind of eased up a little bit.

59:01 So there's gonna be some guys that are gonna get some looks.

59:04 A lot of people have talked about this this offseason,

59:06 but it seems to be a lot of smoke and no fire.

59:08 But why do you think the Cardinals organization

59:10 has not taken that big leap to reach out

59:13 and acquire the Colorado Rockies star third baseman,

59:16 Nolan Aranado, who is a top five position player

59:19 in the game of baseball.

59:21 He's also just now entering his physical prime.

59:23 Why do you think there hasn't been more focus

59:26 on potentially making that move?

59:28 - Well, I think there was, and I think there has been.

59:30 I think that it just, you know,

59:32 I'm not sure if the Colorado Rockies actually wanted to trade them.

59:35 It almost felt like it was more of a,

59:37 well, let's just see, you know,

59:39 why don't you allow me to blow my socks off

59:40 with what you're gonna give us?

59:42 Because it feels like if they wanted to move them,

59:45 they could.

59:46 I mean, just like everything you just said,

59:47 I mean, this guy's a beast, right?

59:48 He's an animal.

59:49 He's gonna make any team better.

59:51 There's no question about that.

59:52 So the fact that he hasn't moved

59:55 makes it seem like they don't want to get rid of him, right?

59:57 I mean, because look, he is the guy.

59:59 I mean, I'm sure a team, whether it be us or someone else,

1:00:02 could put a package together that they'd be happy with.

1:00:04 But it hasn't happened.

1:00:05 So for me, I kind of look at that,

1:00:07 like maybe they don't really want to trade them.

1:00:09 You know, and I think you have to make smart decisions.

1:00:12 That's good for your team long-term

1:00:14 and what they're looking at and what we're trying to do.

1:00:16 And I just don't think the stars have aligned,

1:00:17 but I definitely think they're always,

1:00:19 and I mean this about the Cardinals,

1:00:20 they're always trying to get better.

1:00:22 It's not like they're not.

1:00:24 It's just the situation hasn't presented itself.

1:00:26 Yeah, and that's one thing that's interesting.

1:00:28 It'll be fun to watch the situation with Aaron Otto

1:00:30 because he's clearly unhappy.

1:00:31 He's clearly at odds with the Colorado Rockies.

1:00:34 And I think it was just yesterday on MLB Network,

1:00:36 they reported him saying a quote

1:00:38 that he doesn't care about having his number retired.

1:00:40 He cares about winning a World Series.

1:00:42 And so the obvious implication there

1:00:44 is that he doesn't feel like Colorado is close enough

1:00:47 and has the pieces to be able to compete in October,

1:00:50 whereas another team might.

1:00:51 So it'll be interesting to watch that situation.

1:00:53 So you mentioned some of the Cardinals players last year

1:00:56 that maybe didn't perform up to how they had previously

1:00:59 in their career, namely Goldschmidt,

1:01:00 also Dexter Fowler and so on and so forth.

1:01:03 But there are two players that I think are integral

1:01:05 to this year's Cardinals success, but in your opinion,

1:01:08 who do you think is more important

1:01:10 to the 2020 St. Louis Cardinals?

1:01:12 Matt Carpenter or Carlos Martinez?

1:01:14 Ooh, interesting.

1:01:19 I'm going to go with Carlos Martinez because

1:01:22 the impact that he could have if he's healthy

1:01:24 and what he can do is far and beyond.

1:01:27 You know, that could be a huge addition.

1:01:31 I mean, you're talking about somebody

1:01:32 with unbelievable stuff, unbelievable sinker.

1:01:35 He's going to get his ground balls.

1:01:36 You look at the way we can play defense.

1:01:38 I think that plays into that.

1:01:40 I think carp is a big piece too.

1:01:42 I don't want to underestimate that.

1:01:44 But, you know, as a hitter, you know,

1:01:47 there's eight other guys, not including the pitcher,

1:01:49 that, you know, might be able to get it done that day

1:01:51 and we can still win, which we did last year.

1:01:53 We proved that, right?

1:01:54 So for me, I think Carlos, if he can come out

1:01:57 and, you know, be lights out, well, that's a piece

1:02:01 maybe you weren't expecting, that is going to be

1:02:04 a bright shining star.

1:02:05 Well, and with Michael is going down

1:02:07 and we're not exactly sure how his forearm issues

1:02:10 going to go as we progress into the season,

1:02:12 you're right, Carlos Martinez has all the skill sets

1:02:15 and all the abilities to be right up there with Flaherty.

1:02:18 I mean, if you go into a playoff rotation

1:02:20 and you've got the experience of Wainwright

1:02:22 somewhere in the periphery,

1:02:24 but then you've also got Flaherty and Martinez

1:02:26 throwing in ways that we know that they can,

1:02:28 that's a formidable opposition for just about anybody.

1:02:30 So the interesting thing about this offseason though, Rick,

1:02:33 is, you know, people are wanting to get, you know,

1:02:35 tabs on their team and who's our team signed?

1:02:37 And there's been obviously a lot of money

1:02:39 spent this offseason.

1:02:40 You got the big trade for Mookie Betts and David Price,

1:02:42 like there's things happening.

1:02:44 But nobody can stop talking

1:02:45 about the Houston Astros situation.

1:02:47 I did, I did an entire podcast episode on it.

1:02:50 I thought that it was reprehensible, what they did.

1:02:52 I thought MLB's punishment.

1:02:54 I mean, basically $5 million fine for draft picks.

1:02:57 And, you know, you suspend a couple of guys

1:02:59 that the organization fires.

1:03:01 I think just about every team in the league

1:03:02 would take that deal if it meant they got a World Series

1:03:05 and all the windfall and all the money

1:03:07 and all the prestige that comes with that.

1:03:09 But for you as a former player and now as a broadcaster,

1:03:11 someone who's still integral to the game,

1:03:14 what's your read of the situation?

1:03:17 Because we're seeing so many players come out

1:03:19 since spring training started.

1:03:20 And I don't think Rob Manfred had the slightest idea

1:03:24 how angry players would be that the players themselves

1:03:28 got immunity and wouldn't receive any punishment.

1:03:30 But for you, in your opinion,

1:03:32 what is your read on this situation with the Houston Astros?

1:03:36 - I think they took it a step too far.

1:03:38 I mean, look, there's always been people

1:03:39 trying to steal signs and I mean that from on field stuff, right?

1:03:43 When you're at second. - Sure.

1:03:44 - When you're at first, like, that's part of the game.

1:03:46 We're trying to read tendencies.

1:03:47 It's just part, it always has been a part of the game,

1:03:49 but using the technology in that way is a step too far.

1:03:52 I'm tired of talking about it.

1:03:54 I feel like, you know, as far as the players being all angry,

1:03:58 I understand it, completely understand it.

1:04:01 But it, you know, it was the player's association.

1:04:03 - Sure, it was one of the immunity, right?

1:04:05 - Right, right.

1:04:06 I need to look at that and understand that as a whole,

1:04:10 that's what happens.

1:04:11 You know, so I don't want to get too far into it.

1:04:14 I think it was a step too far and quite frankly,

1:04:18 I'm ready to move on.

1:04:19 Let's get on with the excitement of spring

1:04:21 and let's start playing and here we go.

1:04:24 You know, they are a very talented team.

1:04:26 I mean, that is the Houston Astros.

1:04:27 I think they're going to have a tough road,

1:04:29 getting past all the criticism.

1:04:31 I don't think it's going to be easy.

1:04:32 Obviously, as it's playing out to be,

1:04:34 but that is a talented group.

1:04:36 And it'll be interesting to see

1:04:38 if they can overcome that or not.

1:04:40 And I mean, I'm just, I want to get on with baseball.

1:04:42 I mean, you know, it is what it is.

1:04:44 - All right, well, we will get on with baseball,

1:04:46 but there, I do got to ask you one more question.

1:04:48 If you were a pitcher right now,

1:04:50 don't you think you would at least find a little bit

1:04:52 of satisfaction and plunking one of those guys this season?

1:04:54 Just a little bit, just a little bit?

1:04:56 - No, honestly, I think like I would have,

1:04:58 I've been disappointed in myself

1:04:59 that I can't change my science.

1:05:01 Like look in the mirror and be a man,

1:05:03 they knew it was happening.

1:05:03 - Sure.

1:05:04 - But that's, I mean, the team's knew what was going on.

1:05:08 When you're hearing a trash can getting banged

1:05:09 or something that doesn't seem right,

1:05:11 you're gonna, I mean, listen, everybody's always nervous

1:05:14 or thinking somebody has science from second.

1:05:16 I mean, that's why you see the catcher come out so many times

1:05:18 called time and they're switching signs.

1:05:19 I think you have to sit down

1:05:20 and do a better job of moving your science around.

1:05:22 You need to take responsibility too.

1:05:24 You can't just, oh, they were cheating

1:05:26 and blah, I'm going to hit them.

1:05:27 Like, you know, take responsibility.

1:05:28 It's your career too, so.

1:05:30 - Fair enough.

1:05:31 Well, I appreciate your perspective,

1:05:32 but as we end here,

1:05:33 I'm going to ask you a bunch of rapid fire,

1:05:35 baseball related questions.

1:05:36 So you're going to give us a quick answer on all of these

1:05:39 and then give us just kind of a little idea

1:05:41 as to why you pick it.

1:05:42 So you ready?

1:05:43 - Yep.

1:05:43 - All right.

1:05:44 Who will be the MVP of the 2020 St. Louis Cardinals?

1:05:49 - Oof.

1:05:50 Paul Goldsmith.

1:05:55 - Paul Goldsmith, why?

1:05:56 - 'Cause I think he's going to come back to play

1:05:58 how he can, hit how he can.

1:05:59 And he's, he, Goldglove defense shows up

1:06:01 anytime he takes the field.

1:06:02 So you're already going to have that

1:06:04 and I think his bat's going to show up.

1:06:06 - All right.

1:06:07 Who is the greatest St. Louis Cardinals of all time?

1:06:10 - Oof.

1:06:11 Man, that's a tough one.

1:06:12 Stay in the man.

1:06:14 Stay unusual.

1:06:15 - Kind of hard to go against him, but why?

1:06:17 - Just be cut.

1:06:18 Well, listen, he was a pitcher first and then started hitting.

1:06:20 So obviously I got to respect that,

1:06:22 but I mean, what a hitter.

1:06:23 It's unbelievable.

1:06:24 And what an unbelievable man.

1:06:25 The stuff that he did on and off the field.

1:06:28 I think that's kind of set precedence

1:06:30 into a way that, you know, for me,

1:06:32 when you look at Cardinal players,

1:06:34 it's always good people.

1:06:35 It seems like we always do the right thing

1:06:37 or they always do the right thing.

1:06:38 But I think that's kind of bread.

1:06:39 That's the way the organization works.

1:06:41 And I think, you know, he was a part in setting up.

1:06:44 - All right.

1:06:45 Who would make a better Major League Baseball manager,

1:06:47 Adam Wainwright or Yadi Air Molina?

1:06:49 - Ooh, I think they both would be really good.

1:06:53 But I'm going to go with Molina

1:06:54 just because of the way I've seen him handle

1:06:57 many different things behind the plate at once.

1:06:59 Never get lost, nothing ever speeds up on him.

1:07:02 He's a very intelligent baseball person.

1:07:06 - Cool.

1:07:07 Who was your favorite Major League teammate?

1:07:08 - Man, I had so many, it wouldn't even be fair

1:07:12 to pick just one.

1:07:13 - With that gummy, I'm going to make you pick one.

1:07:15 You got to pick one.

1:07:15 Just give us one.

1:07:16 - I'll go Xavier and 80.

1:07:19 - Okay, so why him?

1:07:21 - Just funny, man.

1:07:22 Gets it, you know, at the time we played together,

1:07:25 we were both kind of role players.

1:07:26 We weren't playing every day.

1:07:28 So we really bonded, got together,

1:07:30 and just kind of tried to keep each other positive.

1:07:33 - All right, which current Major League Baseball player

1:07:35 do you like to watch the most?

1:07:37 - Man, these are all tough questions.

1:07:42 There's so many young bright stars, and I mean that.

1:07:45 So, I mean, let's say I'll go with Flaherty pitching,

1:07:49 'cause I like to see where, you know,

1:07:51 just he's really turning into his own,

1:07:53 you know, just his own thing right now.

1:07:55 It's fun to see his rise and what he's becoming.

1:07:58 And as a hitter, gosh, look, Mike Trout's fun to watch.

1:08:03 There's so many young guys, that's tough question.

1:08:06 - All right, which current MLB player reminds you

1:08:09 the most of you?

1:08:11 - Clayton Kershaw.

1:08:11 - Okay, Clayton Kershaw,

1:08:14 but one of the greatest left-handed pitchers ever,

1:08:16 so why is that?

1:08:17 - Because that's what I thought I would have been.

1:08:20 - Sure, just doesn't, it's unbelievable.

1:08:22 He's been this good for this long,

1:08:23 and he's obviously turned from a thrower into a pitcher,

1:08:26 so I would agree with you there.

1:08:27 Who, as a hitter, who was your least favorite pitcher to face?

1:08:30 - Oh, Brian Shaw, this little lefty sidearm guy

1:08:35 that pits from Milwaukee, he threw maybe 78 miles an hour,

1:08:39 but nobody on our bench lefty-wise could get a hit off this.

1:08:42 I don't even think we got one out of the infield

1:08:43 for the entire year.

1:08:45 - Oh man, that's terrible.

1:08:46 All right, next one.

1:08:47 If you could have gotten one at bat

1:08:50 against any pitcher in MLB history,

1:08:53 who would it have been against?

1:08:54 - Myriana Rivera, and I was on deck,

1:08:57 and then our manager changed his mind at the last minute

1:09:00 and went with him. - No!

1:09:02 - Yes, I just wanted to see it.

1:09:04 I wanted to see it in person

1:09:05 and see what that cutter looked like,

1:09:07 and I just didn't get the chance.

1:09:08 - Cool, if you could have pitched against any player,

1:09:11 and I think I know who you're gonna say,

1:09:13 it pitched against any player in MLB history,

1:09:15 who would it have been?

1:09:16 - Babe Ruth.

1:09:18 - Exactly, I knew it, 'cause you would strike him out,

1:09:20 wouldn't you?

1:09:21 - Yes, I would.

1:09:22 - They didn't have lefties throwing high nineties

1:09:25 with big hooks back in the day,

1:09:27 so you would aid him alive, I'm pretty sure.

1:09:28 - Strike him out and then take him deep.

1:09:30 - There you go, there you go.

1:09:32 All right, who is the most underrated current player

1:09:34 in Major League Baseball?

1:09:36 - Ah, it was Anthony Rendon before this offseason.

1:09:41 I think before the World Series,

1:09:43 and he got a chance to show what he could do

1:09:46 on a national scale and actually got the attention forward,

1:09:48 Anthony Rendon.

1:09:50 - All right, who is the most overrated current player

1:09:53 in Major League Baseball?

1:09:55 - Mm, I don't know, I ought to come back to that,

1:10:00 but I gotta look, I don't have a list out right now.

1:10:05 - All right, we'll circle back.

1:10:07 Who had the best outfield arm in baseball history?

1:10:10 - Wow, from the people that I got a chance to see play,

1:10:15 I would say Valadimir Guerrero, the strongest.

1:10:18 Maybe not the accurate, but I've seen him

1:10:20 make some throws that were jaw dropping to anyone,

1:10:23 like the strongest thing I'd ever seen in my entire life.

1:10:26 - Absolutely, all right, next one.

1:10:27 When his career is over,

1:10:29 will Mike Trout be considered the GOAT?

1:10:32 - Yes.

1:10:33 - All right, I don't think you need

1:10:35 to give any more context than that.

1:10:36 I've got one last question, but I am gonna go back.

1:10:38 Who is the most overrated player

1:10:40 currently in Major League Baseball?

1:10:42 - Man, I wanna see a list of numbers right now.

1:10:44 I honestly don't have a name for you, I don't.

1:10:49 All right, well, I'll give you a name then.

1:10:50 And this is a guy that I really, really like.

1:10:52 It's gotta be Bryce Harper.

1:10:54 Just because with that contract,

1:10:56 you've gotta be at the top of war

1:10:59 and in the top three in MVP voting every year.

1:11:02 And since he won the MVP,

1:11:03 he's kind of been all over the place.

1:11:05 Now again, I love Bryce Harper as a player,

1:11:07 but it is kind of weird seeing his struggles

1:11:10 and I thought he was gonna do much better

1:11:11 in Philly his first year than he did.

1:11:13 So that's my one, but the last one.

1:11:16 - I do, but I also understand you that,

1:11:17 and I'll just say it 'cause we're on it, right?

1:11:20 You know, a lot of times these contracts

1:11:21 aren't just about what you can do on the field,

1:11:23 even though you think they should be, right?

1:11:25 - Gotta sell jerseys.

1:11:26 You gotta do all kinds of things.

1:11:28 - He's gonna sell season tickets.

1:11:29 All those things happen.

1:11:30 I mean, he's a bonafide superstar.

1:11:32 There's no question about that.

1:11:33 - That is what I tried to explain to some friends

1:11:35 that just didn't understand his deal.

1:11:37 And I was like, guys, there's a reason why his jersey

1:11:40 went to the tippy top of all of sports

1:11:42 above LeBron James's jersey, above Cristiano Ronaldo.

1:11:45 As soon as he signed, they sold more jerseys

1:11:48 home and away for the Philadelphia Phillies

1:11:50 than they had of any player in a long time,

1:11:51 probably since Ryan Howard was in his prime.

1:11:54 And so it's like, you gotta understand it.

1:11:55 You know, he's gotta sell hot dogs

1:11:57 and he's gotta sell parking spaces, all those things.

1:11:59 But at some point, I do wanna see him get back to his old form.

1:12:02 But the last question I got for you today, Rick, is this?

1:12:05 Who is the greatest baseball player of all time?

1:12:07 - Man.

1:12:09 Hmm, greatest of all time.

1:12:15 I'll just give you my favorite of all time,

1:12:17 which is Ken Griffey, Jr.

1:12:19 Just being able to watch him come into the league at 19

1:12:21 and do the things that he could do athletically,

1:12:23 the beautiful left-handed swing,

1:12:25 Gold Glove defense, the arm, everything.

1:12:28 That's my favorite player, so I'll go with that.

1:12:31 Who's yours?

1:12:32 - Well, I grew up when Ken Griffey was coming up.

1:12:36 And so my favorite player growing up

1:12:38 was Ken Griffey, Jr. as well.

1:12:39 I mean, you couldn't ignore the swing.

1:12:42 But for me, when you're talking about

1:12:43 the greatest player of all time,

1:12:45 I've gotta go with Babe Ruth,

1:12:47 just because in the area in which he played,

1:12:49 being able to win as many games as he won as a pitcher.

1:12:52 And then in addition to play the way he did

1:12:54 on the offensive side of the ball, it's different.

1:12:57 I can see the arguments 'cause he wasn't

1:12:58 the most athletic guy, you know, he didn't play the field well.

1:13:01 Like I get all of those things.

1:13:03 But I'm also with you.

1:13:04 I think if Mike Trout continues on his trajectory,

1:13:07 we're not gonna be talking about him

1:13:08 in the same sentences, maybe,

1:13:10 you know, a Mickey Mantle or Roberto Clemente.

1:13:14 We're gonna be talking about him in terms of Babe Ruth,

1:13:17 in terms of Willie Mays, in terms of Hank Aaron.

1:13:20 I think he's gonna end up being

1:13:22 the greatest player of all time.

1:13:23 I really, really do.

1:13:24 The unfortunate thing is he plays for the Angels.

1:13:27 The Angels just, it's like they can't figure themselves out.

1:13:30 Hopefully Madden can kind of help that

1:13:33 because I don't want him to be the greatest player

1:13:35 of all time in a sport that nobody ever knows his name.

1:13:38 They don't, they don't know to pay attention to him.

1:13:40 So I can hope, I hope the Angels can get a little better

1:13:42 for his sake.

1:13:43 - I didn't do it.

1:13:44 - Yeah, well Rick, I mean, that's all for me.

1:13:46 That's all the questions we went everywhere in this podcast.

1:13:48 Is there anything else you wanna get off your chest?

1:13:50 - No, I'm good, man. Thanks.

1:13:52 - Awesome, Rick, thank you.

1:13:53 Thanks for coming on Daunted Life of Man's Podcast.

1:13:56 (upbeat music)

1:13:58 There you go, guys.

1:14:01 I mean, wasn't that awesome?

1:14:02 I mean, I told you from the jump

1:14:03 that even if you're not a baseball guy,

1:14:05 even if you're not a Cardinals fan, whatever,

1:14:06 there's something to glean from that interview for everybody.

1:14:09 I mean, just his story is absolutely incredible.

1:14:11 And guys, we didn't even scratch the surface

1:14:14 on the stuff that was in the book.

1:14:16 You've gotta go get the book.

1:14:17 It's called The Phenomenon.

1:14:18 It's available everywhere.

1:14:19 If you're an e-reader, go ahead and do it that way,

1:14:21 book read or whatever.

1:14:22 Or if you're an audio guy, again, he records the audio

1:14:24 for the audio book.

1:14:25 So definitely check that out.

1:14:27 But guys, I told you from the beginning,

1:14:29 we're gonna keep bringing on guys like that

1:14:30 and just always give us the benefit of the doubt,

1:14:33 even if you don't know who it is from the beginning.

1:14:34 Or if you're not sure how it applies to you,

1:14:36 we will always bring it to you, all right?

1:14:38 Thank you guys so much for listening to the podcast.

1:14:39 We really do appreciate it.

1:14:41 If you would, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts,

1:14:43 iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or Stitcher,

1:14:46 and refer your friends to listen

1:14:47 and share this on social media.

1:14:49 Guys, you gotta give us a five-star review.

1:14:51 If you think we deserve it,

1:14:52 that is how this podcast is gonna continue to get out

1:14:54 to guys like you, is if you share it,

1:14:56 if you give us a review, give us those five stars

1:14:59 and let people know about us, all right?

1:15:00 I'm currently booking speaking engagements

1:15:02 for the entirety of 2020.

1:15:04 So if you want me to come speak to your team,

1:15:05 when your podcast at your men's event, hit me up, info

1:15:08 @Undaunted.life, again the email is info@Undaunted.life.

1:15:12 The website is www.Undaunted.life.

1:15:15 You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter

1:15:17 @UndauntedLife or Facebook.com/UndauntedLife.

1:15:20 Check out our free devotionals on the YouVersion Bible app.

1:15:22 Just search Undaunted Life under plans.

1:15:24 And as always, we wanna thank the band August Burns Red

1:15:27 for allowing us to use their entire music library

1:15:29 for our content.

1:15:30 The intro outro track on this podcast

1:15:32 is our song "King of Sorrow",

1:15:33 which is off their latest record entitled "Fantom Anthem".

1:15:36 The links are in the description.

1:15:38 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.

1:15:40 Remember, keep cultivating manly resilience,

1:15:43 keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical toughness.

1:15:47 Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.

1:15:49 (upbeat rock music)

1:15:52 ♪ So whoa ♪

1:15:55 ♪ You can't stop dancing like me ♪

1:15:59 ♪ So whoa ♪

1:16:02 ♪ You can't stop dancing like me ♪