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This is Undaunted Life, a Man's Podcast, I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into
0:45
it.
0:46
All right, guys, today, we're going to be talking about the problem with effeminate
0:49
pastors.
0:50
Right?
0:51
I've got some other thoughts in terms of what I would title this episode, but some
0:54
of y'all got a little offended at episode number four, so just use your imagination
1:00
and try to think of what I wanted to call this episode.
1:02
But anyway, let's go ahead and get into the reason for this week's episode.
1:05
So, I had a bunch of podcasts that came up all around the same time, but I was actually
1:09
on Instagram, and one of the Instagram accounts that I follow is called Doc and Devo.
1:15
And so, that's short for doctrine and devotion.
1:17
Okay?
1:18
So, this is apparently a, it's two guys that are pastors at the same church and, you know,
1:24
they're, they're reform Baptist stuff.
1:26
They put some really cool stuff out there.
1:28
So, as following, I'm just kind of flipping through Instagram one day, and I see this
1:31
like pink picture, and it has the words, are you effeminate on there with the question
1:36
mark?
1:37
Right?
1:38
And I was like, oh, okay, that's kind of interesting.
1:39
And so, I go to the caption and the caption said, Jimmy and Joel revisit the subject of
1:43
effeminate men seeking to offer some thoughts and a bit of clarity on the issue.
1:48
And then there was some other stuff and it said link in the bio bio.
1:50
And so, I go to their podcast, I don't listen to podcasts regularly, but I did pick up
1:53
that episode.
1:55
And this was the episode that was from June 20th of 2019, and they were talking specifically
1:59
about this guy named David Miller.
2:01
And David Miller is a guy that's well known in a lot of Baptist circles.
2:05
He apparently got Dr. Albert Moller as kind of like the president of the Southern Baptist
2:09
Convention.
2:10
Or if I don't have my details right, you know, you can just email me later and let me know.
2:14
But David Miller was talking on a panel, apparently at the founders conference, okay, founders
2:20
is a Baptist ministry and they had a bunch of, you know, old crotchety dudes up there
2:24
talking about manhood and all that.
2:25
And so, I'm being a little bit ridiculous, but it seemed like it was pretty good stuff
2:29
that they were putting out there.
2:30
So, I'm definitely not dogging on them or anything about that.
2:32
But he made a comment David Miller did apparently on this panel discussion, which I'm sorry,
2:38
I can't find the audio.
2:39
I tried to find the audio of it.
2:40
I tried to get it to where I could plug it in here.
2:42
But the summary I guess is that he was kind of made this off color comment about pastors
2:46
wearing skinny jeans.
2:47
And he's like, yeah, I kind of want to lift up their pants to see if they were in pantyhose
2:50
and stuff like that, basically making this all-encompassing statement about effeminate
2:55
pastors, right?
2:56
And so, the guys on the Doc and Devo podcast, they weren't really too happy with how he
3:02
said it.
3:03
They were complimentary.
3:04
The guy said he's a really, really smart guy.
3:05
He just said a really dumb thing.
3:06
But the thing that they were talking about specifically is what we see in 1 Corinthians
3:11
6, verses 9 and 10.
3:13
And so, this is in the King James version or the NASB, but I'm going to be reading from
3:17
the NASB.
3:18
But I'm going to go ahead and read this here to you.
3:21
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
3:25
Do not be deceived.
3:27
Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves,
3:34
nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of
3:39
God.
3:40
And so, if you look at a bunch of different translations like I'm normally in the ESV,
3:46
you don't see the word effeminate used.
3:48
You see other words that are used, okay?
3:50
So I did as much digging as I could without my MDiv and I just kind of looked at the Greek
3:55
word that was used there and the Greek word that was used there to describe effeminate
3:59
was a word malikos, okay?
4:02
And that translates in a lot of different ways.
4:04
But mainly it's soft, softy, squishy, smooth, compliant, delicate, and yes, I said squashy
4:12
and not squishy.
4:13
I guess squashy is a word.
4:14
So that's a thing that happened.
4:16
But the thing is, is that word is used throughout scripture.
4:19
And so if you do a little research on malikos in the Bible by yourself, you'll find a lot
4:22
of different instances where that was used in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
4:26
But it was used in the context in 1 Corinthians 6, 10, it basically means describing men as
4:32
soft as opposed to strong, okay?
4:35
And this is seen in a negative way, obviously, and it's visibly so they are visibly soft.
4:42
And one who is, I guess susceptible to selfish indulgence would be a good summary of that.
4:48
But there was some other definitions throughout the internet that I was able to find, kind
4:51
of related to this passage.
4:53
It's that the word is also used to describe the passive male partner in a homosexual
4:57
act.
4:58
So there you go.
4:59
I just put that in your brain.
5:00
What describes being passive in a same sex relationship, but not necessarily sexually,
5:07
but not not necessarily sexually.
5:09
And so it's, but again, it's just kind of being dainty, being soft.
5:13
That's kind of what it looks like.
5:14
So it doesn't necessarily refer to physical strength or weakness.
5:20
And it doesn't necessarily align with the how we would use the word of feminine and modern
5:25
English.
5:26
But the thing about it is, is it's not completely unrelated either, okay?
5:30
So specifically on the physical strength part, and this is not something that I'm going to
5:33
kind of go too far into because we got a lot to cover here today.
5:37
It's kind of one of those things that there's a lot of people that look at that passage
5:39
and are like, oh, well, they're not talking about guys that look soft, you know, guys
5:42
that are pudgy or out of shape or fat or whatever those things are.
5:45
But at the same time, it's talking about men that are visibly soft and not just in their
5:52
character, although it does also include their character.
5:55
Again, the Greek language was so incredible.
5:57
There's so much meaning even in a single word.
6:00
But that's something when you see these guys that tend to ignore their bodies, but they
6:03
don't ignore the Bible and they, they kind of use that as their crutch.
6:06
But all that kind of got me thinking, it got me thinking about soft and effeminate men
6:12
inside the church today.
6:14
That's obviously something that I spend a lot of time thinking about because it absolutely
6:17
drives me insane, drives me insane in my personal church, basically every church I've
6:20
ever been in since I started going to church and high school, right?
6:23
And then my thoughts almost immediately took me to soft and effeminate pastors and leaders
6:29
inside the church specifically because a lot of times that's who the other guys in the
6:35
church are looking to for their models, right?
6:38
And whenever I'm talking about effeminacy, which is going to kind of be a big part of
6:42
what we're talking about today, I'm mainly talking in terms of what we take soft and
6:47
effeminate to mean in modern day English, right?
6:49
So for the rest of today, I'm going to be kind of using that as a little bit of an explanatory
6:54
term in terms of what we're looking at.
6:57
But then it also got me thinking back to episode four of this podcast, right?
7:00
It's still to this day that the most listened to podcast episode that we've put out none.
7:04
And it's kind of due in large part to the name.
7:07
It's called Pussies in the pews.
7:08
And a lot of you guys, pretty much everyone that has listened to my podcast, any episode
7:12
has found their way to episode number four.
7:15
But one thing that was very interesting in that episode is I talked about two separate
7:20
epidemics.
7:21
And so I was going to go ahead and just summarize it here, but I kind of went back and listened
7:24
to it and it was a pretty good breakdown of kind of where we're going to be going or
7:28
where I was going there in that podcast.
7:31
But even for today's purposes, I think it would be very beneficial to you.
7:34
And one thing just kind of point out, the audio is going to be a little bit different
7:37
because in my first dozen or so podcast, I wasn't really sure how the computer and the
7:42
mic all worked in tandem with one another in the best way possible.
7:45
And so I was basically right on top of the microphone, right?
7:48
And so to keep it from going like, like I've talked about this before, to keep it from
7:52
popping, I would talk a little bit softer.
7:55
I didn't have my level, my levels really kind of evened out guys.
7:58
I'm not an engineer when it comes to sound and all this stuff, like it's just not something
8:02
that I'm great at.
8:03
So I'm just doing my best so I can give you guys the highest quality.
8:05
But just so you know, whenever we go back to clips from that episode, it will sound a
8:08
little bit different.
8:09
Don't at me.
8:10
But here we go.
8:11
I'm pulling a clip from episode four of this podcast.
8:13
Here we go.
8:16
So first, let's go into what is the problem?
8:18
So let's get right into it.
8:19
And I frame the problem in the, from the perspective of that, there are two epidemics going on
8:24
right now.
8:26
The first epidemic is of men leaving the church.
8:30
And the second epidemic is of effeminate men inside the church, okay?
8:36
So let's go back to the first epidemic of men leaving the church.
8:39
So if you look at any stats, I mean, there's some stats are that haven't been updated in
8:43
a while, but we can pretty much assume and that most of the trends are still going in
8:47
that direction.
8:48
But there's a huge chunk of women that attend church without their husbands.
8:52
So they, they are in a marriage relationship and a covenant relationship with a husband,
8:56
but that husband does not actually attend church with them.
8:59
So obviously if that is a family where there are children involved, that mean that there
9:03
are children that are going to church without their fathers as well.
9:06
So in really, whenever you look at this, I guess the best case scenario is that the
9:11
men don't go because they're bored.
9:13
So so that's the thing is when they've gone to church, they've been bored.
9:16
So they're just like, I don't want to go.
9:18
I don't want to do that anymore.
9:19
But I guess the worst case scenario would be that they're actually being repelled that
9:23
it's not really something that maybe they do want to go to church, but they're actually
9:27
being repelled away from it.
9:29
And so there's a great quote by David Morrow in his book, Why Men Hate Going to Church.
9:34
And I love this quote.
9:35
It says, the real tragedy is not just that we're losing boys.
9:39
We are losing the most competitive, aggressive boys.
9:43
I testosterone boys destined to be leaders and innovators are checking out of the church
9:47
at a young age.
9:49
And so we look at what's happening with with young people.
9:52
And then we look at how it's manifesting with husbands and aren't going to church even with
9:56
their wives.
9:57
And you kind of come to this thing where this thought process may be that there's there's
10:00
a binary choice that some guys, whether this is correct or incorrect, they feel as if they
10:05
have a binary choice between number one, I can be a good church guy, whatever that means,
10:11
or number two, I can be a real man that I mean, either choose to check my balls at the door
10:15
and then walk inside and do my church thing.
10:18
Or I keep my balls and I go do something that a real man would do.
10:21
So I mean, the thing is, is you may look at that as like a very neater, tallish way of
10:25
looking at the situation, but you talk to any number of guys, especially guys that are
10:29
no longer in the church.
10:30
I mean, you're going to see that to be the case.
10:33
And really the problem is we're losing our leaders.
10:36
A lot of these young boys that were in that David Morrow quote that are leaving the church
10:40
at a young age or leaving as soon as they get to college and get out of their parents'
10:43
house.
10:44
These are these are the future leaders of the church.
10:46
These are the future thought leaders within communities.
10:49
And really the horrible thing is that the church is doing them no favors because everything
10:53
within the modern Christian church is telling these men, this is not for you, like everything
11:00
we're doing.
11:01
This is not for you.
11:02
We are repelling you.
11:04
And you know, we'll get more to some specifics into that later.
11:06
So moving on to the second epidemic and that's the epidemic of a feminine men inside the
11:11
church.
11:13
The thing about it is men are not being shown a real life version of strong biblical manhood.
11:20
I mean, even just as a challenge to you, like if you had to think of a strong biblical manly
11:25
man, could you immediately come up with somebody?
11:28
I mean, maybe for some of you, you're, oh, yeah, think about somebody and maybe someone
11:32
will come to mind that's in your local community, maybe someone that's actually within your
11:36
church.
11:37
Hopefully, you think you look in popular culture and you're just not going to find people just
11:41
readily available.
11:43
But that's the thing for men is that's what we want.
11:46
We want to follow strong men.
11:48
I mean, you just look back in history, you have, you know, Teddy Roosevelt and Winston
11:52
Churchill, George Washington, General Patton, Ernst Hemingway, you know, Jack London, just
11:58
guys like that.
11:59
And I mean, guess those are older examples, but even look at modern examples, you got
12:02
Jacko Willink and Pat Tillman, Chris Kyle, Adam Brown, one of my favorite characters of
12:07
anything ever of Navy Seal and the subject matter of the Fearless book, which I've recommended
12:12
before.
12:13
But that's, we want to follow men like that.
12:16
We want to follow men that have accomplished things.
12:18
We want to follow men that are changing things for the better.
12:23
But the problem is, is when you look around the church, you don't see men like that.
12:26
Like when's the last time you saw someone in the church that was like Jacko Willink,
12:30
that biblically based, like was like Teddy Roosevelt that had that robust manly leadership,
12:37
but had like that strong Christian basis for their lives.
12:41
And here's the thing, and before anyone gets mad, I obviously am not talking about all
12:46
of these people.
12:47
It is a case by case basis, but I am saying that a lot of church staff tends to be more
12:52
effeminate.
12:53
These are softer types of people, people that are drawn into ministry kind of tend to
12:59
be more on the softer side.
13:01
And I even talked to people that are in seminary school, and a lot of people in seminary schools
13:05
ping softer, more effeminate, they're more emotive.
13:09
And again, just so no one misquotes me, I'm not saying that all people are that way.
13:14
It's just they have a tendency to ping in that direction, and it'd be really hard for
13:18
you to prove me wrong on that.
13:20
And just the church is a place where men that struggle with same sex attraction, and that's
13:26
exactly how we're going to be wording it, men that struggle with same sex attraction,
13:31
they can come in and feel unchallenged.
13:35
So again, I feel like men that struggle with same sex attraction should always feel welcome,
13:39
like 100% of the time feel welcome, but a lot of these men just feel really unchallenged
13:44
to change their point of view or the way that they're living their lives.
13:47
And there's another good quote here by by David Moro.
13:50
And here it is, it's why do so many effeminate and gay men attend church?
13:55
See because the church is one of the few institutions in society where there's no pressure to act
14:01
like a man.
14:02
In fact, men are encouraged not to where else can a man express his feminine side and be
14:09
applauded for it?
14:11
End quote.
14:12
I mean, and that's just that's it right there.
14:14
And if you think back on some of the people that you've dealt with in the church or some
14:17
of the people that you've run across that you would say that that tends to be true for
14:21
you.
14:22
So there you go again guys, sorry for the old audio like drives me insane trying to listen
14:28
to the old audio there.
14:29
But again, the main point there is the two epidemics, the first being the epidemic of
14:33
men leaving the church.
14:34
And the second is the epidemic of effeminate men inside the church.
14:36
And again, I want to read that quote again from David Moro and it says, why do so many
14:40
effeminate and gay men attend church?
14:42
Maybe because a church is one of the few institutions in society where there's no pressure to act
14:47
like a man.
14:48
In fact, men are encouraged not to where else can a man express his feminine side and be
14:52
applauded for it.
14:54
So that's the end of the quote there.
14:55
But again, it kind of got me thinking through a lot of those different things.
14:58
But what one of the big things and one of the big reasons why I was able to kind of think
15:02
through that and kind of go back to that is because I've been looking at this for a long
15:06
time.
15:07
I've been noting this noting this in my mind and noticing it around me for a very long
15:11
period of time.
15:12
And again, I've talked to a lot of guys since I released that episode, not necessarily about
15:16
that episode, about what they've seen and what they've experienced in the church.
15:20
And these guys aren't having a different experience, regardless of wherever they grew up, regardless
15:24
of the denomination they went to, whether they were, you know, Protestant or Catholic
15:27
or whatever the thing was, they're having this, these same types of thoughts, right?
15:32
Like why is this happening?
15:33
I got to want this to be happening, but, but it's definitely happening.
15:38
And one of the reasons when you start kind of thinking through this and understanding why
15:41
it, why goes that way is you do have to think about seminaries.
15:45
Because that is where these pastors are being trained up and sent out, right?
15:51
Because there's not a whole lot of groups outside of seminaries that are training up
15:54
pastors and then sending them out, right?
15:56
Now, now typically if you have a group that is sending out pastors and doing church plans
16:00
and stuff like that, these people already have their ministry training, right?
16:04
They've already got their divinity designations and they've already got those things.
16:09
They've been to seminary.
16:10
They've gone through all of those, those hoops, right?
16:13
And then they get sent out.
16:14
But then you have to start really thinking, who's training them up?
16:19
Who are the people that are in charge of training them up in order to send them out?
16:23
And so again, around the same time that this Doc and Divo podcast came out where they were
16:27
talking about that, I got another clip from the cross-politik podcast.
16:31
And so it's called the, they're on like something called the fight laugh feast network.
16:36
It's just super confusing how they're doing it.
16:38
Like I have no idea why they're doing it that way, but they're trying to set up, you know,
16:40
half a dozen or 10 or so different shows on this one feed, right?
16:45
And so you have all these podcasts on there and like for a guy like me, there's only one
16:49
of them that I like.
16:50
And so I'm having to like kind of sift through and whatever.
16:52
But there's two shows a week from just the cross-politik guys.
16:54
So those are the main three guys that started this whole thing.
16:57
So they do a show that I think comes out on Sunday and one that's kind of like a midweek
17:00
fix.
17:01
And so on the midweek fix for the same week that I was listening to the Doc and Divo one,
17:05
they kind of went into this.
17:07
You wouldn't get it from the title of this podcast.
17:08
I'll give you the title later when we do the quick resilience boost.
17:12
But there's a nice quote, a nice little chunk in there where all three guys were talking
17:16
through something.
17:18
And I want you to especially pay attention to the third guy that you hear talking, right?
17:22
So his nickname is chocolate knocks.
17:23
And so they just call him chalk knocks.
17:25
So that's how I will be referring to him as he refers to himself as chalk knocks.
17:29
But let me go ahead and get into a clip from the cross-politik podcast here.
17:32
I've been thinking about this a lot recently about just how little compromises in my own
17:39
life lead to bigger things.
17:41
Oh, do tell.
17:42
And lead the bigger sense lead the bigger sense or whatever.
17:46
But it actually starts with how we're reading the scriptures and little little ways we compromise
17:51
when we read the scriptures versus we kind of just ignore a little bit.
17:55
But this, but you know, this this Bible first, we can't say it's viable.
17:58
We get trans theology out of the Bible first before we get trans theology in the church,
18:02
and it starts with little compromises in our lives, right?
18:05
Well, yeah.
18:06
Yeah, I mean, we've had, you know, I think I think it's Doug Wilson in his, in his, he's
18:10
got a little great little booklet on why ministers must be men.
18:13
And I'm pretty sure it's in that little book letter.
18:15
He said it elsewhere.
18:16
Where is this at?
18:17
You can probably find this.
18:18
Can and I know.
18:19
I want that.
18:20
Just it's a little booklet.
18:21
It's like 30 pages long.
18:22
Why ministers must be men?
18:23
But he said that it was actually men acting like women in the pulpit that granted granted
18:30
the world the argument.
18:32
If men are not men in the pulpit, then why can't women do it?
18:35
Yeah.
18:36
Because women are better at being women than men, right?
18:38
Yeah.
18:39
Well, I don't know.
18:40
Transmen are beating them in sports, but if the, you know, whatever, but the, you know,
18:44
if it basically comes down to being relatable and having good personnel skills and being
18:50
good administrators, having a great jawline, whatever, then, then a woman is generally better
18:57
at that than most men, but because we don't have a masculine job description for pastor
19:02
anymore.
19:03
Yeah.
19:04
But it's men who were cross dressing first and they were intending to, but they started
19:10
acting.
19:11
And this is, you know, goes back to me.
19:12
There's an old.
19:13
I mean, the feminization of the church by Ann Douglas is a great study on this.
19:19
Back in the 1800s, you had even there in the more solidly orthodox Calvinist churches
19:27
already the shift towards pastors being more relatable, right, being more into poetry and
19:34
not that pastors can't be into poetry, but like literary pursuits, beauty pursuits.
19:39
But it was this sort of like a conscious shift away from being men and particularly being
19:45
warriors, being protectors, being shepherds, being defenders.
19:49
Okay.
19:50
I know, I know we want to move on, but that's a lot and I want to work through that a little
19:53
bit.
19:54
But I think there's a lot of guys who are coming up in the modern seminaries who love
19:58
the Lord, who are who are furious about sin want to come against this, but they're being
20:03
trained by guys who are not men, you know, and so they're being taught kind of how not
20:08
to react to this and how to be that softer, gentler type of preacher, the kind of preacher
20:12
who you can relate to, but not the kind that can get you in line, get you to love Jesus
20:17
more by the way he swings the sword.
20:18
So how.
20:19
So a lot of those guys are listening right now and how do you know when you've kind of
20:23
like, because compromise, like we were talking about this earlier with this whole cross dressing
20:28
story hour, the PCA, PCUSA is already there.
20:32
We see revoys happening in the PCA and I said, I never thought 10 years ago that I would
20:37
ever see revoys happen in the PCA.
20:39
Yeah, right.
20:40
It's not cross dressing story hour yet, but get it 15 years.
20:45
Absolutely.
20:46
Yeah.
20:47
So, but at the same time, they don't see that this a gradual change is happening.
20:50
So if a young man is entering to the ministry and he's like, okay, I want to be that kind
20:54
of man that'll stand up and fight.
20:57
But he's being trained by guys who don't know what a real fight looks like.
21:00
Yeah.
21:01
How to take a bullet.
21:02
And he's been taught actually how to pull his punches and hoping that the relationship
21:05
will develop people who will engage culture.
21:08
How does he fight that?
21:10
Yeah.
21:11
Because he's almost a fish and water that doesn't know he has, you know what I mean?
21:13
The culture is so permeated inside of seminaries.
21:16
Yeah.
21:17
There's so many, there's so many things here that I don't know that there's an easy answer
21:20
that other than I would just say, I think that the effeminacy begins by valuing relationships
21:26
over truth.
21:27
Yeah.
21:28
So I would just, I would just say your job as a man is to value truth first.
21:33
Yeah.
21:34
And that's hard and that doesn't mean you shouldn't be kind or you shouldn't be patient.
21:38
But I would say basically, you know, all on the, on the key issues, the revoiced stuff,
21:42
the sexual identity issues, the gender issues, women deacon issues, all that kind of stuff.
21:47
Basically anybody who says, let's form a committee or have consensus basically is trying to make
21:53
you effeminate.
21:54
Yeah.
21:55
You know, they're, they're valuing relationships.
21:56
They're trying to work out this in harmony and trying to value relationships over truth.
21:59
I think the only hope for the PCA and re-voice is for a bunch of people to just get really
22:03
mad.
22:04
Yeah.
22:05
Like righteously indignant.
22:06
Yeah.
22:07
And say no, we're not going to, we're not going to talk about this anymore.
22:09
You're done.
22:10
You're done.
22:13
So there's really a lot of things that you can engage with there and kind of talk through
22:17
and I'll talk through a few of them, but I really want to pull out a chalk knocks is quote
22:20
here.
22:21
And so it's broken up into two different areas, but I'll just read it as if it's one quote.
22:24
But here's the quote from him.
22:25
So quote, so I think there's a lot of guys who are coming up in the modern seminaries
22:29
who love the Lord, who are furious about sin, want to come against this, but they're being
22:34
trained by guys who are not men.
22:37
So they're being taught how to not react to this and how to be the softer, gentler type
22:42
of preacher, the kind of preacher that you can relate to, but not the kind that can get
22:46
you in line and get you to love Jesus more by the way he swings his sword.
22:51
They don't see that a gradual change is happening.
22:54
So if a young man is entering into the ministry and he's like, okay, I want to be the kind
22:58
of man that will stand up and fight, but he's being trained by guys who don't know what
23:03
a real fight looks like.
23:05
And he's being taught actually how to pull his punches and hope that the relationship
23:09
will develop people who will engage culture.
23:12
How does he fight that?
23:14
End quote, again, my favorite part of that is whenever, you know, how can you have these
23:18
guys, but you need that guy that can get you to love Jesus more by the way he swings his
23:24
sword.
23:25
So just think about that in the context of where we live now or even think about it in
23:28
kind of an olden day context.
23:30
When you're when you have these warrior cultures, where did the boys learn from?
23:34
They typically learn from their fathers, their uncles, their older brothers, these men that
23:40
were in their life that were actually moving them in a particular direction and helping
23:44
them understand what it's like to be a man by how they swung their sword, by how they
23:48
use their spear, by how they use their shield, those types of things.
23:52
And so in our context, imagine being surrounded by men that are teaching you how to love Jesus
23:57
more ferociously, right, and be more dedicated to your discipleship to him in that way by
24:02
the way that they're swinging their sword.
24:05
And so I thought that that was a great point.
24:06
I didn't really like the one guy.
24:07
I can't remember his name, but he was basically like, Hey, you know, a feminist starts with
24:11
focusing on relationships, as opposed to truth.
24:14
I was with him there, but then he was just basically like, yeah, you need to focus on
24:17
truth first.
24:18
Again, if Jesus came full of grace and truth being both grace would you would consider
24:23
to be maybe more on the, the emotive relational feminine side, right?
24:28
You can't really put one above the other because Jesus didn't really put one above the other.
24:32
So I think if he went back, he would probably take that back considering what I've heard
24:36
him say before.
24:37
I don't know that he necessarily meant it in that way.
24:40
But that's the only thing that I really was against here.
24:42
But I think that's a big point here.
24:44
And again, it goes back to these seminaries and those guys that were there, they're pastors.
24:48
And so I think at least one or two of the three have been through, you know, these seminaries
24:53
before and they kind of know what they're talking about.
24:56
Because for me, I've never been through seminary.
24:58
I've got a lot of friends that have gone through seminary and I've talked to them about their
25:01
experience and I've talked to them about what they're seeing.
25:03
And they're like, yeah, it's pretty much like that.
25:05
Even if they would self select as kind of one of those guys at, yeah, you know, I'm probably
25:09
a little bit more feminine on the, you know, feminine masculine scale or any of those types
25:12
of things.
25:13
But the thing about it is, is a lot of people like to pick on guys that are thinking this
25:18
way or that are even willing to say things like this.
25:21
But the thing is, is can you prove them wrong?
25:24
I mean, the little interaction that just happened between those three guys on the cross
25:27
politics podcast, where did they go wrong?
25:29
Again, I kind of pointed out the one that was glaring to me where they were kind of trying
25:32
to put truth above relationships and I don't know that they necessarily meant to do it
25:36
that way.
25:37
But where else?
25:39
Because again, I think chalk knocks is completely on whenever he's talking about these things.
25:44
It's what do we expect of these guys coming out of seminary when the people that are teaching
25:48
them are the way that they are.
25:52
And so this kind of gives me some concern about where Christianity is going to go in
25:55
the West specifically the United States because there's a lot of liberalization and feminization
26:00
that has crept its way into these seminaries, a lot of kind of this woke culture, a lot of
26:06
kind of this, oh my gosh, we don't want to offend anybody type of thing.
26:10
And I really like whenever they were talking at the end, there was another, the quote going
26:14
back to chalk knocks is quote, and he's being taught actually how to pull his punches and
26:18
hope that the relationship will develop people who will engage culture.
26:23
How does he fight that?
26:24
Because that's the thing we talk about all the time.
26:26
I mean, you can go back to the episode I did on Andy Stanley, Jeff Durbin.
26:28
I mean, Jeff Durbin was basically saying everyone is walking around as if we can't say something
26:33
like, well, God says, God says that we shouldn't do it that way.
26:38
God says that we shouldn't treat people that way.
26:40
God says that we shouldn't murder babies in the womb.
26:42
It's because God says, and I understand the argument, it's hard to fight against.
26:48
But another person that was kind of picked on in the Doc and Devo podcast that we were
26:51
talking about was Mark Driscoll.
26:53
So you can kind of tell that these guys, they were not big fans of Mark Driscoll or wild
26:57
at hard or any of those type of kind of manly type things.
27:00
And here's the thing, guys, I know that Mark Driscoll has done some really shady crap,
27:05
right?
27:06
I mean, as far as I know, he was, you know, he was under church discipline for how he's
27:10
treating people that he was pastoring, right?
27:13
I don't think there was any abuse, like sexually, but I think there was some mental abuse, some
27:17
bullying going on that he was doing.
27:19
He inflated some of the numbers of some of his books that were selling, like the sales
27:23
numbers and things like that is something that I heard that I know that he had one point
27:27
and created this like separate screen name on some blog to basically get on on in rail
27:31
on people.
27:32
But the thing about it is is Driscoll's gotten a lot of crap before for how he goes at men.
27:39
And you know, Driscoll has done some things where he basically is trying to categorize,
27:43
you know, Western American cultural masculinity with biblical masculinity and maybe it's it's
27:49
at best a very strained connection.
27:52
But he did a sermon a while back and let me get the name of the sermon here because he's
27:55
got a lot of crap for it before, but it's called men and marriage.
27:58
So he was doing, I think that was in concert with one of his books, oddly enough, I think
28:02
it was the book that he was lying about how many sales he was getting.
28:05
But anyway, he's got a lot of crap for this one, like four minute section of one of these
28:11
talks.
28:12
And it was over an hour in, I mean, the clip that I watched were over an hour and five
28:17
minutes in whenever he kind of gets into this thing.
28:20
But he's gotten a lot of crap for some of the things that he's done and that's well-deserved.
28:24
And then there's things like this that I don't think it's deserved that he's gotten a lot
28:28
of heat for it.
28:29
But let me go ahead and play this clip for you from this, this sermon series that he did
28:33
that coincided with his book.
28:35
And again, this is Mark Driscoll and it's from his men and marriage sermon.
28:39
So here we go.
28:43
Some of you guys, it's just, it's so frustrating.
28:51
Some of you guys have been coming here for years.
28:54
You still got your hands all over your girlfriend.
29:02
Some of you guys have been coming here for years.
29:05
You're still not praying with your wife.
29:08
Some of you guys have been coming here for years.
29:13
You're still single and having sex.
29:20
Some of you guys will even, even as I'm preaching this sermon, some of you will be sitting next
29:24
to your girlfriend or your fiance or your wife.
29:29
Some of you guys have already given her that look.
29:31
Don't cry.
29:32
Don't let them know they're talking about me.
29:34
Just hold it together.
29:37
You've already intimidated her right here.
29:39
Some of you guys have already whispered in her ear.
29:44
I don't want to hear it.
29:46
You're not talking about this in the car on the way home.
29:51
Some of you have already whispered in her ear.
29:53
I'm sorry, I'll do better.
29:55
Trust me.
29:56
Let's just move on real quickly.
29:57
How dare you?
29:59
Who the hell do you think you are?
30:05
Abusing a woman, neglecting a woman, being a coward, a fool, being like your father,
30:13
Adam.
30:14
Who do you think you are?
30:18
You are not God.
30:19
You are just a man.
30:21
You're not an impressive man.
30:23
You're not a responsible man.
30:25
You're not a noble man.
30:27
You're not a respectable man.
30:29
You're not a responsible man in any regard.
30:32
I don't care how successful you are in this area.
30:37
If you are a failure, it clouds all of your dignity.
30:41
It robs all of your masculinity.
30:45
There is no excuse for any man who claims the name of Christ to treat a woman in a dishonorable,
30:55
disrespectful way.
30:58
Some of you right now, you guys will get all angle how dare you yell at me.
31:03
That's the Holy Spirit telling you it's you.
31:07
I didn't name you, he did.
31:12
You change now, little boy.
31:16
You change right now.
31:19
You shut up, you put your pants on, you get a job, you grow up, and maybe one day you
31:26
can love a woman.
31:28
It's for men, not for boys.
31:31
And those of you men who are here and your wives are suffering under your folly and failure
31:37
shame on you.
31:39
And shame on you if you say you're a Christian.
31:42
And shame on you if you've been attending Mars Hill.
31:44
And shame on you if you've been surrounded by good men and have pursued none of them.
31:49
And shame on you if you've not become a member of Submitted to Spiritual Authority.
31:53
And shame on you if you've not joined a community group so you can walk in darkness.
31:57
And shame on you if you show up to put communion in your hands representing the body and blood
32:02
of your murdered savior and then go put them on your girlfriend or download porn from the
32:08
internet or raise your hand in a threat to your wife.
32:14
Shame on you.
32:17
You guys are a joke.
32:20
And there's a handful of good men that are tired of picking up your mess.
32:25
So you step up, you shut up, you man up, and you use all of that anger you have toward
32:30
me right now to repent.
32:33
You do business with God.
32:36
I'm going to let you sit in this for a while.
32:40
You don't go get your kids.
32:42
You don't get up and leave.
32:46
And then he kind of goes on from there a little bit.
32:48
But hey, hey, I know not all of you are in for that style, but gosh darn it.
32:54
If that wasn't a breath of fresh air.
32:56
I know that was a sermon from a long time ago.
32:59
He's lost Mars Hill since then.
33:00
He's opened up his own church, his new church and like Arizona or something since then.
33:05
But again, different style going to be hard to call a guy like that, effeminate, right?
33:12
It's just different.
33:13
But the thing about it is you could even see in the caption for the YouTube link for that
33:17
whenever I send it to you later is like, Hey, at about the, you know, 105 106 mark.
33:21
That's where, you know, when guys have gotten really offended, it's like, it's like, what
33:26
do you think you're preparing me for?
33:27
Like, are you my personal lifeguard walking around, making sure that I'm not offended
33:30
by things that I hear?
33:32
But here's the thing.
33:33
There are plenty of people that are offended by what Driscoll said there.
33:37
They're offended by what the guys with cross cross politics said.
33:40
They're offended from John Eldridge with wild a heart.
33:42
They're offended by me.
33:43
Like the conversation I've had with some people that have been offended, it hasn't been a
33:47
lot of conversations, but there are people that get offended.
33:51
The thing that's interesting about people that are offended by people like us that I
33:55
just put in one big, you know, macro category is that they are soft.
34:00
They're Malachos.
34:01
They're soft.
34:02
They're dainty.
34:03
They're smooth.
34:07
And should we be the ones to apologize for that?
34:12
Because I've been asked several times in my life, you know, whenever I've offended somebody
34:15
to apologize and whenever I recognize, Oh my gosh, I shouldn't have said that.
34:19
I shouldn't have done that.
34:20
I shouldn't have said it in that tone.
34:21
Whatever thing is sure.
34:22
I'm completely okay with acknowledging my wrong and trying to write it, right?
34:25
Sometimes there's some pride that gets in the way.
34:27
I'm certainly not perfect at it and I don't have a 1000 batting average when it comes
34:31
to that.
34:32
But at the same time, when I recognize it, I try to write the wrong, but then there are
34:35
people that are saying, well, you have offended me with what you've said.
34:39
And I would like for you to apologize.
34:42
And then I will ask them something like, well, was something that I said inaccurate?
34:46
Well, no.
34:47
Okay, what was something that I said, was it taken out of context?
34:53
I don't think so.
34:55
Okay.
34:57
So what exactly is your complaint?
35:00
Well, I just didn't like it.
35:02
Oh, okay.
35:03
Okay.
35:04
So you just didn't want to hear it.
35:06
It just didn't agree with your, your sensibilities.
35:09
It was maybe going to push you and change you, right?
35:13
That's kind of what we get into.
35:15
And so I take all of this and I've thought through all of this and kind of have these
35:18
different quotes and these different, you know, sound bites and all these different
35:21
things.
35:22
And it kind of brings up three big questions for me.
35:25
And these are questions that you should wrestle with, wrestle with as well.
35:27
And for my pastors out there that are listening to this, this is kind of on you guys, and
35:31
we'll talk more about that here in a second.
35:33
But the three big questions that it begs is number one, how did we get here?
35:37
Number two, why do some people seem to prefer this style, right?
35:42
And third, can we make it stop?
35:45
And so in terms of the, how did we get here, I've actually already addressed that before.
35:49
So again, on the post season, the pews podcast, episode number four of this podcast, about
35:52
nine minutes and 40 seconds in or so, I kind of specifically address the, how did we get
35:58
here thing?
35:59
So we're going to go back to the bad audio just for a little bit, uh, for a few minutes
36:02
here, actually about six or seven minutes here, and we'll kind of get into the, how did we
36:06
get here?
36:07
How did we get into this predicament?
36:08
So here we go, um, and the, the second thing I want to talk about today, again, we kind
36:13
of looked at what is the problem.
36:15
The second thing is how did we get here?
36:17
And this is very, very important.
36:19
So it's not just look at where we're at right now, but how do we get to this point?
36:22
So really when you look back on the history of the church of 2000 years over 2000 years,
36:27
the church was a place where real men were in where real men wanted to be.
36:34
And the examples we see from that is really from the early church, you see, uh, leaders
36:39
of local communities, they are actually leading spiritually for their local communities.
36:43
You see, you know, Jesus is, uh, you know, his disciples.
36:46
So his, his immediate 12 and then became 11 and kind of on from there, um, you, you look
36:52
at all the other disciples that were immediately there and converted when they saw him about
36:56
500 people that saw him resurrected, uh, and then we look at the martyrs as well.
37:00
Like these were some of the most manly and of course there were female martyrs that were
37:04
incredibly brave as well, but the men were, were so manly and so robust in their testosterone
37:09
filled ways of manhood.
37:12
And that's just really where, where those people wanted to be.
37:14
And the interesting thing about the early church is it was very fundamentalist.
37:19
I mean, the church had a very fundamentalist, uh, literal view of the triune God and specifically
37:26
Jesus.
37:27
People really questions about Jesus's manhood or the things that Jesus does.
37:30
Uh, but the thing that we see is as time war on the church kind of strayed from that fundamentalism.
37:38
Um, and when you look back on history and church history, it looks like there are two
37:42
key periods that were really damaging for men overall.
37:47
And, uh, the first period was the industrial revolution, uh, and the second were that were
37:52
both of the world war.
37:53
So industrial revolution think, you know, late 18th century, early 19th century in the
37:58
world wars were obviously the early 20th century.
38:01
Um, but the thing about it is when you think about, um, the industrial revolution at that
38:07
time, where were all the strong able body masculine men during the industrial revolution?
38:14
I mean, all of those men were working.
38:16
Those men were in the factories.
38:18
Maybe they were underground working in coal mines or doing things with oil and gas industry,
38:22
whatever that may be.
38:24
And that's where all those men, all those very strong virile men were.
38:28
And, and then also if you think about it, where were during World War two and, and World
38:32
War one, where were all the strong able body masculine men during that time?
38:35
I mean, they were all fighting like they were all out there fighting and you never really
38:42
thought of these people as being highly involved in their churches or in, in local ministry
38:46
during that time because they were either working or fighting.
38:50
Um, and then we see what I guess I'll call the turn for lack of a better expression.
38:56
But many of the manly men, I guess who would have otherwise gone into ministry or had a
39:01
very, very robust, um, attachment to local ministry and to the church, they, they died
39:08
in war or they died in industrial revolution related type accidents, mechanical accidents,
39:15
or maybe they sought other means of employment.
39:17
Um, they, they struggled mentally coming back from the war, having experienced shell shock,
39:22
like it just what ministry wasn't on the top of their, uh, list of things that they wanted
39:25
to go after.
39:27
And then we look at what happened is if these men are off at war or if these men are working,
39:33
what's left inside the church?
39:35
I mean, the only males left inside the church or the young, the weak or the sickly, right
39:42
or the old.
39:43
Um, so you're having these, uh, these places, these churches that are becoming very overwhelmed
39:51
with a female presence.
39:52
I mean, the, you might have 85, 90% female.
39:55
And so when you look at these types of places, um, you're, you're looking at a turn in the
40:01
types of content that was happening because again, the manly men aren't there, the men
40:06
that are left or tend to be a little bit more feminine or they're weak or old.
40:09
So the sermon focus and the content of the sermon started to change the, the music started
40:15
to change, the decoration started to change as the different types of missional focuses.
40:20
They all seem to become a little bit more feminine, right?
40:23
I mean, because that's the thing is if you look at it from a marketing perspective, obviously
40:27
if the majority of your target audience is of a particular, uh, gender or race or age
40:33
or persuasion or worldview, you're going to start marketing and catering to those needs.
40:38
And so the turn that we see, it was, it was gradual, but I'm not sure that it's ever stopped.
40:45
And so let's look at sermon content.
40:47
So what sermon content tended to be, especially in the early church, it was very truth and
40:52
justice oriented or, and you could look at those as more masculine type qualities and
40:58
then it moved into more of a grace and forgiveness type of content, which tends to be a little
41:04
bit more effeminate.
41:05
And then also look at the music.
41:09
So, uh, I'm going to actually dedicate an entire future podcast, uh, episode to the subject
41:13
of praise and worship music and what that's done, uh, to men within the church.
41:17
But when you, when you look at the musical content, we were once singing about, singing
41:21
the praises of the conquering just God.
41:24
And now we're just singing about Jesus like he's our boyfriend that we like want to cuddle
41:28
with them.
41:29
And even if you look at some of the lyrical content, and again, I'm going to break this
41:31
down on future podcasts, some of it even comes off as homo erotic.
41:35
So for some of you guys out there that listen to praise and worship music and for whatever
41:38
reason, you're just like, I am not down with this.
41:41
I don't understand.
41:42
I feel like I'm supposed to like this, but I don't, uh, don't feel bad and we'll get
41:47
in, get into why, but, but then we look at modern society.
41:50
We live in maybe one of the most pluralistic, uh, relativistic feminist cultures that we've
41:55
ever seen.
41:56
And that is really exacerbated some of the issues within the modern church.
42:00
And so when we combine everything that I've talked about in terms of how we got here,
42:04
we have men leaving the church and droves, uh, there's rampant fatherlessness all over
42:10
the United States and really all over the West.
42:12
And it's at the same exact correlation time in terms of when men are leaving the church.
42:17
Christianity overall is losing its standing in the West and, and Christians, uh, along
42:22
with that.
42:23
And so we just get where we have scores of pussies and the pews, just tons of cowardly
42:27
dudes sitting in the pews, wasting away.
42:30
And I know for a lot of you that that's hard to hear, but again, I think you know it's
42:35
true.
42:36
If, if you really get down to the core of it, you do know that that is true.
42:42
So spoiler alert, I don't have any updates for you on that.
42:45
I still feel the exact same way that I felt before in terms of all of those things.
42:50
And I think it's important, uh, to revisit those things, but there's not really anything
42:53
that I would mainly update for you or change that, that is basically how we got here.
42:58
There hasn't been anything else that I've, that I've learned on that, but, but again,
43:02
I've had people get mad at me specifically for that section of that podcast, but they
43:06
can't elucidate why they can't explain to me why exactly it bothered them so much.
43:12
And this kind of gets into the second big question, which is why do some people seem
43:16
to prefer it?
43:18
Why do they prefer the softer approach?
43:20
Why do they prefer the effeminate pastor?
43:24
And this is the main reason why I think so is because it typically keeps you from having
43:28
to look at yourself in the mirror because if you're pastor up there in front of you on
43:35
Sunday mornings or your worship leader or your Sunday school pastor or the person that helps
43:40
with volunteers or the person that helps with whatever events going on.
43:44
If they're just soft and cuddly and fun and understanding and sensitive, do you ever expect
43:52
to be challenged by that person?
43:54
I mean, they might challenge you to read a book, which is obviously a good thing.
43:56
They might challenge you to come to an event, which could be a good thing as well.
44:00
But again, these people aren't going to do anything to you because that's one thing
44:06
that I thought was interesting going back to the doc and devo guys when they were talking
44:09
about it.
44:10
Like I looked at pictures of these guys and the thing is is they look like pretty soft
44:14
guys.
44:15
And I mean, just physically, right?
44:17
I talk about spiritual, mental and physical resilience all the time.
44:20
And the thing about those three resiliences is you can't really tell on the first two,
44:23
but you can tell on the last one, physical, you can pretty much tell if somebody's taking
44:27
care of themselves or not.
44:29
And so those guys aren't unique.
44:30
There's a lot of guys that would consider themselves to be deep theological thinkers,
44:35
but they're physically soft.
44:38
And those guys are the ones that come to their own defense the most often.
44:42
They're just like, ah, you know, it's, you know, you're just focusing on the wrong things.
44:47
Like you're, you're focusing on, you know, Western manhood and you're focusing on caricature
44:51
manhood.
44:52
And you're focusing on those things.
44:53
You're not really focusing on biblical manhood guys.
44:55
This is exactly why we talk about spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
45:02
All of them, again, if you've never heard me talk about this before, the thing is, is
45:06
if you cultivate resilience in those three main areas, it will spill over into every
45:11
other area of your life, emotional, relational, financial, everything, it'll, it'll spill over.
45:16
And the thing is, is all of us crush it typically at one of those things, maybe.
45:22
But it's usually one or two of those that you don't even pay any attention to.
45:27
And it's typically what you're typically good at, right?
45:30
So if you're a good athlete, you've always been a good athlete, put muscle on without
45:33
having to do much.
45:34
You can gain weight.
45:35
You can lose weight sis or whatever the thing is.
45:36
You're great, potentially a physical resilience, but maybe you haven't prayed like ever, right?
45:42
Then, then you have the other people that are, are super mentally resilient.
45:45
They were, they read a hundred books a year, but if they needed to run a mile to save everyone
45:49
in their town's life, everyone would be dead within a hundred meters, right?
45:53
I use those examples all the time, but, but that's kind of the thing is that's what we're
45:57
talking about.
45:58
A lot of people prefer these types of pastors because they're easy.
46:03
They're not going to make you move.
46:05
They're not going to challenge you every now and then.
46:09
They might almost raise their voice during a sermon.
46:14
They might take you aside to try and correct you, but, but then they typically come back
46:19
to the, the midline, the, the through line, which is, hey, I'm a nice guy.
46:24
Aren't I a nice guy?
46:25
And I've said this before, guys, if the best compliments someone can give you is that you're
46:30
a nice guy, you need to change.
46:33
I'm not saying you don't, you need to be mean.
46:34
I'm not saying you need to be a jerk.
46:36
What I'm saying is that, that can't be the number one thing that people think of when
46:40
they think of you is, gosh, you know, that dude, he's just a really nice guy.
46:44
He's so nice.
46:46
He's so cute.
46:47
He's so cuddly.
46:48
I just want to wrap them up and put them in my shirt pocket with my other pins and move
46:52
on with my day.
46:54
But, but again, that's why people prefer it is because they're easy.
46:57
That's why you have these people that have, you know, these, just, if they look back in
47:01
their paths, they just have all the wreckage of busted up relationships and it's typically
47:06
with a bunch of people that they got comfortable with at a certain point.
47:10
And then the first time they tried to challenge them, they're out, they're popping smoke,
47:14
they're out and they're looking back and they're wondering what's wrong with all these people
47:19
I was dating.
47:20
It's like, well, there's one common theme in all the people you were dating and that's
47:23
you, buddy.
47:25
That's you.
47:27
You were the person.
47:28
You didn't want to be challenged.
47:30
You just wanted that subservient wife that was going to be barefoot and pregnant, bringing
47:33
you a sandwich and there's nothing wrong with getting a girl pregnant that you're married
47:37
to and that you love under a covenantal relationship before God and having to bring you a sandwich.
47:41
Don't at me if that's what you're going to think about here in just a second.
47:44
But that's the thing that I want you guys to understand is why do you seem to prefer
47:48
that?
47:49
I'm talking about you now.
47:50
Why do you seem to prefer these effeminate pastors?
47:53
Because some of you will notice it and you're like, oh, I don't really like my, you know,
47:57
guys wearing skinny jeans while you sing in these songs.
48:01
And that's as far as you go.
48:03
But are you doing anything about it?
48:06
Are you trying to actively make sure that the next generation of young boys inside your
48:10
church doesn't act in an effeminate way?
48:13
And again, I don't necessarily mean cultural femininity.
48:17
But at the same time, like, are you doing things to instill real biblical masculinity
48:21
in them?
48:22
Like, what are you doing?
48:23
You got plenty of oxygen to complain about it.
48:26
How much are you putting into changing it?
48:29
So again, there's three big questions here.
48:31
The first is how did we get here?
48:32
The second is why do some people seem to prefer this style?
48:35
And the third is, can we make it stop?
48:40
And guys, to be honest with you, I don't know.
48:43
I don't know if we can make it stop.
48:47
So a question I get fairly often is, hey, Kyle, is your ministry affiliated with any
48:53
church or any denomination or are you under any anyone's authority with some sort of like
48:58
a regional group or are you planning on parking your ministry inside of a church or denomination
49:03
someday, and my answer is pretty quick to the point that's, no, we're not affiliated
49:09
with any particular church.
49:11
We're not affiliated with any particular denomination.
49:14
We're not affiliated with any particular network.
49:15
We're not affiliated with any of those things.
49:17
And we're not looking to do that.
49:20
And part of the reason why is because I think what's going to actually stop this to stop
49:25
the feminization of the things that we're seeing inside the church is it's going to
49:29
take a parachurch revolution.
49:31
Like it's going to take something that's outside of the church.
49:35
I mean, like a real one, not like, you know, promised keepers were, hey, we're going to
49:39
fill up stadiums for a few years and then call it good or, you know, people are going
49:43
to stop coming, right?
49:45
I think promised keepers is trying to make their way back, but it seems like it's going
49:48
to be the same model, try to get a bunch of dudes in a room at the same time.
49:51
And it's not going to be, hey, go read wild at heart.
49:55
Good luck.
49:56
You know, it's not going to be, hey, our church does one big men's event per year.
50:00
And that's good enough for me.
50:01
It's not going to be stuff like that.
50:02
That's not a revolution.
50:03
That's programming.
50:04
That's come to this big event where we got this, you know, guy who used to play football,
50:08
he's going to talk and we have this guy that used to be in the military.
50:10
He's going to talk and then Bob, or here's this book again.
50:13
I'm not hating a lot of heart.
50:14
I think a lot of hearts, potentially the most important men's ministry book that's ever
50:17
been written, right?
50:19
But at the same time, how are we calling that change in all of this?
50:25
Everything that we've talked about for the last 50 minutes or so is kind of boiling down
50:29
to this one thing.
50:30
The timing was providential because all these podcasts that I'm referring to, except for
50:35
Pussies and the pews, the, the, the cross-politic podcasts, um, the doc and devotion.
50:40
And then this one by Stephen Mansfield, these all came in like the same week.
50:44
Okay.
50:45
So there was a big suggestion that Stephen Mansfield made on his great man.tv podcast
50:51
on the June 25th, 2019 episode.
50:54
So if you're not familiar with his podcast, he's got the Stephen Mansfield podcast and
50:58
then he's got the great man.tv podcast.
51:00
And on the great man.tv podcast, these are 10, 15 minute long episodes on a myriad of
51:04
different issues with those are specifically manliness related.
51:08
And so Stephen Mansfield made a great recommendation and it's something that I've been talking
51:12
about for a long time, but this is another guy that can make the recommendation for you.
51:16
And unfortunately, I don't have the audio for it.
51:18
So if you would anywhere that you get podcasts, look for the great man.tv podcast for June
51:23
25th, 2019, but his big suggestion was senior pastors have to model manliness.
51:32
The senior pastors and what's funny is, is I don't know, cause Stephen and I, you know,
51:37
we know each other decently well, like, you know, we're, we're at least, I guess we can
51:41
call ourselves friends.
51:42
We haven't had too many interactions with one another, but he made a comment that I thought
51:45
was pretty funny.
51:46
He goes, you know, typically in most churches, they give the quote unquote men's ministry
51:50
to some 32 year old guy with muscles and they say, Hey, you go and do it and it's kind of
51:55
funny.
51:56
Like I consider myself to be in pretty good shape.
51:57
And I'm 32 years old.
51:58
So Steve Mansfield, if you're thinking to me, I understand what you're talking about.
52:02
But at the end of the day, there are things that I'm lacking.
52:05
There's things that that 30 something your whole pastor with muscles is lacking, whether
52:10
they have a, you know, a wife or not, or whether they have kids or not, or whether they've had
52:13
a business installed or not, whether any of those things that come into the situation,
52:16
they're limited, but typically your senior pastors are more seasoned like they've gone
52:24
through life.
52:25
They've held the hands of dying people.
52:27
They've walked people through, you know, mourning the loss of that person.
52:31
They've walked people through fixing their marriages.
52:33
They've walked men through, you know, maturity and becoming a man and all those things.
52:39
But how many of you guys know of a senior pastor that you're like, man, I would follow
52:46
that guy into battle.
52:47
I would follow him into fire.
52:51
I don't know a lot of those guys.
52:54
The churches I've been to, the churches that I've watched, there's not a whole lot of those
52:57
guys that you see them modeling spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
53:03
And so the senior pastors need to step up.
53:05
They need to nut up.
53:06
They need to actually get in the game because the senior pastors are the worst offenders
53:12
when it comes to looking at the church, typically on Father's Day, and they look around.
53:15
They basically say, where are the men at?
53:18
Where are all the men at?
53:19
I see a bunch of women here by themselves.
53:21
You know, the men aren't acting like men and blah, blah, blah, blah.
53:23
But for the other 364 days a year, they're not doing a thing to cultivate the men and
53:29
to bring them into manhood in any point whatsoever inside that church, none, nothing.
53:36
So where's the disconnect, bro?
53:40
Because you have a role to play here because guess what?
53:42
I'm not going to have to give an account someday for the other men inside my church and how
53:47
I cultivated them.
53:49
He is, it's in the book.
53:52
He's going to have to give an account for how he shepherded his flock.
53:57
And again, who's underneath the senior pastor?
54:01
Who are the, you know, the second or third guy in line of the senior pastors out of the
54:04
country are sick.
54:06
The guy that's going to talk on Sundays.
54:07
Who's the guy that's running the programs?
54:09
Who's the guy that's running the volunteers?
54:10
Who's the guys that's running this or the, whatever the situation is, they're looking
54:14
to the senior pastor as well.
54:16
And they're going to take on a lot of his mannerisms.
54:18
They're going to take on a lot of his style.
54:19
They're going to take on a lot of things that he thinks are good.
54:23
And if he's not modeling manhood there, you're basically spreading your non-manliness, you're
54:28
a femininity out to other people that are trying to also equip individuals.
54:34
And don't get it twisted here.
54:35
I'm not just nailing these guys saying, oh, they're soaking their job, they're blah, blah,
54:39
and whatever the situation is, like the thing is, is a lot of these guys don't even realize
54:43
it.
54:44
They don't realize how bad of a job that they're doing, which is where guys like us should
54:51
be able to lovingly and sternly take them aside and say, look, I respect what you're
54:57
trying to do in this church.
54:58
I respect what you're trying to do in this youth mystery.
55:00
I respect what you're trying to do in this music ministry.
55:02
I respect what you're trying to do.
55:04
However, I think you might be missing the mark.
55:08
And I'm just one guy's opinion, but let me give you some feedback.
55:11
Hey, I'm a young man inside your church.
55:14
I'm 16 years old.
55:15
I want to learn how to become a man, but whenever I look around the church, I don't see a lot
55:19
of guys that I want to be like when I grow up senior pastor.
55:22
Can you help me?
55:23
Hey, I'm 40 something years old.
55:25
I got a couple of young kids and my marriage is going okay.
55:28
And I'm looking around the church and you know what?
55:30
There's a lot of guys that are kind of my age range that have the same amount of kids
55:33
that I do.
55:34
But gosh, I just don't really have a whole lot in common with them.
55:36
I feel like I'm the black sheep.
55:38
I feel like there's just something happening inside my soul that I don't understand senior
55:42
pastor.
55:43
Can you help me?
55:44
Hey, I'm 65 years old and I'm kind of getting into that sage stage of my life like I'm winding
55:49
down my career and I'm kind of winding up what I think I'm going to do with the rest
55:52
of my days, which I know now more than any time is more limited than I could have ever
55:56
imagined.
55:57
Gosh, and I'm just not sure how I could pass on some of this wisdom, some of the nuggets
56:02
that I've gotten over time, some of the things that I've learned, some of the things that
56:05
I would love to pass on to other people so they can start ahead of where I was and finish
56:09
farther away than what I ever could have possibly done and that they can avoid the pitfalls
56:13
that brought me to this point.
56:15
Senior pastor, can you help me?
56:19
And a lot of our senior pastors are completely ill equipped to deal with that.
56:24
They don't have the foggiest idea what to do with those situations.
56:29
And so for us, we need to be able to encourage them to lift them up to defend them because
56:36
guys, let's just say that whether they find it on their own, whether God, you know, yanks
56:41
them up by their shirt, whether it's you, something that you've said to them and they
56:45
get super motivated and they start getting a little bit more aggressive.
56:48
They start putting their fingers in a few more chests.
56:50
They start like letting guys know what they need to be doing and not doing.
56:54
Guess what they're going to need?
56:56
They're going to need your defense.
56:59
They're going to need you behind them.
57:01
They're going to need you to guard their six.
57:02
They're going to need you to back them up.
57:05
They're going to need you to say, Amen, pastor, even if you're in a church that doesn't really
57:09
like to, you know, scream out, Amen, very much, right?
57:12
They're going to need you.
57:14
Are you equipped to be that person?
57:17
Are you equipped?
57:18
Are you ready?
57:19
Are you ready to say Amen?
57:21
Are you ready to say, I got you?
57:24
Are you ready to say I'm with you, pastor?
57:27
And for my pastor's listening, are you the type of guy that can actually do that?
57:32
Can you put your finger in some dude's chest and tell him he's not doing it right?
57:36
Can you snatch a guy up and correct him in front of people?
57:41
Can you embarrass somebody for the sake of the gospel?
57:45
Can you make them feel small so that you can build them up later?
57:49
Do you have it in you?
57:50
Because if you don't, you might think of another profession.
57:54
All right, guys, thanks so much for sticking in with us here today.
57:57
Before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
58:00
As you know, by now, we are a men's ministry and our mission is cultivating manly resilience
58:03
and specifically we do that by providing content like this podcast that forge a spiritual mental
58:08
and physical toughness.
58:09
So today on the mental resilience part, we are going to give you all the resources we
58:12
talked about today.
58:13
So the cross politic episode was called this.
58:15
It was called Anderson Cooper, bread line, burning promises, student loans and Mexico
58:19
sins, troops to the border.
58:21
So, yeah, that wasn't really what they were talking about during the section.
58:24
I obviously played, but that is the name of it.
58:26
So I got the YouTube link for you there.
58:28
I've got the link to Mark Driscoll, men and marriage to that series.
58:32
Just that will actually, I just have it to that one individual episode or a podcast or
58:35
whatever the presentation that he did.
58:37
You can find more information of that online.
58:39
Again, I'm just drawing your attention back to episode four of this podcast.
58:42
So wherever you get your podcast, wherever you're listening to this right now, just scroll,
58:45
scroll, scroll episode four, we'll get you back to Pussy's and the pews.
58:48
And then also the great man dot TV podcast, a word to churches.
58:52
So what I provided here is just a link to Apple I iTunes podcast.
58:57
So anywhere that you can find podcasts, just go search for great man dot TV.
59:01
But the name of the episode is a word to churches.
59:04
Guys, thanks so much for sticking in with us.
59:06
We really do appreciate it.
59:07
Please subscribe on iTunes, SoundCloud or Google Play and refer your friends to listen
59:10
and share this on social media.
59:12
Guys, if you use the hashtag on Daunted Life on your post, we'll be sure to find it and
59:15
give it a thumbs up.
59:16
Guys, if we deserve a five star review, please leave us a five star review.
59:19
We're currently still five star reviewed, but leave us five stars and a few sentences
59:22
letting us know what about the content it is that you like currently booking speaking
59:26
engagements for the end of 2019 in the beginning of 2020.
59:30
So if you want me to come speak on your podcast, to your men's event, to your business, whatever
59:34
the case may be, hit me up info at undaunted.life.
59:37
That's I N F O at undaunted.life.
59:40
The website is www dot undaunted.life and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter
59:44
at undaunted life or Facebook.com backslash undaunted life.
59:48
Check out our free devotionals on the U version Bible app.
59:50
Just search undaunted life under plans.
59:51
And as always, we want to thank the band, August Burns read for allowing us to use their
59:55
music library for our content.
59:57
The intro outro track on this podcast is our song King of Sorrow, which is off their latest
1:00:00
record entitled Phantom Anthem.
1:00:02
The links are in the description.
1:00:04
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
1:00:06
Remember, keep cultivating manly resilience, keep forging spiritual mental and physical
1:00:12
toughness, keep seeking the Lion of Judah.