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1:00
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
1:13
I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
1:15
All right, guys, today we're going to be talking about something called MGTOW, M-G-T-O-W.
1:21
But before we get into what exactly that means, I want to tell you how I thought of it,
1:25
or not how I thought of it, how somebody kind of brought it to my attention.
1:28
So I'm with the guy, and I forget what we were doing.
1:31
I think we were talking about some business stuff or whatever.
1:33
But he just goes, "Hey, man, I think your listeners would really enjoy you talking about MGTOW."
1:38
And I was like, "What's MGTOW?"
1:39
He's like, "Ah, you go figure it out."
1:41
He's like, "All right, that's kind of a weird way to give me a podcast topic."
1:45
But I liked it. I liked the style and kind of how he brought it to my attention.
1:48
Because that's the thing is, if it's interesting to you guys, then I'm going to bring it to you, right?
1:52
So I get people that will email me or text me or respond on Instagram or something like that.
1:56
Like, "Hey, you should talk about this, or you should talk about that."
1:58
And typically, when you do that, that either makes its way into a Q&A episode or into an entire episode.
2:04
So, guys, if something comes up that's interesting to you,
2:06
even if it's an article or a news story or something like that, please just send it in my direction.
2:10
But the thing about it was, is I think I did a cursory glance on Google as to what MGTOW was.
2:17
And that's kind of where I left it.
2:19
I didn't really go much further. I don't know if I was distracted or busy or what was going on.
2:23
So I just kind of forgot about it.
2:25
But then a couple of weeks ago, he brought it up to me again as we were like leaving lunch.
2:29
We were eating a tremendous amount of ribs and burn-ins and all that kind of stuff.
2:34
Like any good American male would do.
2:36
And he just goes, "Man, you really need to look at MGTOW and let your guys know about it."
2:39
So, that was the day. I was like, "Okay, fine. I forgot about it. I'm going to get back into it."
2:43
And so, let's talk about what MGTOW is. Again, MGTOW, MGTOW, MGTOW.
2:47
It stands for men going their own way. Men going their own way.
2:52
And so, I'm going to give you a little bit of background on this.
2:55
It's basically a movement. And they hate it being called a movement.
2:58
We'll get into why that is a little bit later.
3:00
But it's a movement that was kind of named and coined in the early 2000s.
3:05
Now, it has supposed ties to movements throughout history.
3:10
And so, I'm not going to really get into all that.
3:12
But there's apparently been a lot of these similar types of movements
3:15
that have happened in the history of manhood.
3:17
But the stuff that I got into when I got into the research,
3:20
it reminded me a lot of the stuff I saw in the documentary, The Red Pill.
3:24
And so, if that's familiar to you guys, obviously,
3:26
if you've been listening to this podcast for any length of time,
3:29
episode 19 of this podcast was called The Red Pill.
3:31
And it was based off of this documentary that was shot basically
3:34
looking at the men's rights movement and the men that were within
3:38
that movement called the MRA's or men's rights activists.
3:41
And also, there were women that were in MRA's as well.
3:44
But there's apparently big differences between MRA or men's
3:48
rights activists and MGTOW's men going their own way.
3:52
And so, again, I don't like leaning on that as my major source.
3:56
But I think Wikipedia did a good job here of kind of giving us the
3:59
differences between the men's rights movement and MGTOW.
4:01
So, let's go ahead and look at that right now.
4:04
MGTOW differs from the men's rights movement in that while the
4:07
men's rights movement aims at changing the status quo, such as
4:10
by changing the laws, MGTOW calls for a focus on self-ownership
4:14
and withdrawing from interactions with women.
4:17
Mac Lemaru states, "At first glance, it's easy to lump MGTOW
4:20
with typical men's rights activists or MRA's, who also believe
4:24
that female oppression is a myth and that it's actually males
4:27
who are oppressed." But that's not the case.
4:29
The two groups differ significantly.
4:31
While MRA's are out to fix the problem through action and
4:35
activism, members of MGTOW hold self-preservation above all else.
4:38
And because of this, the majority of the community seems to have
4:42
decided to bow out.
4:44
So, here's the thing.
4:46
It's kind of the response to that question on MGTOW.com.
4:51
Yes, there is a MGTOW.com, and I'm going to obviously give you
4:54
that website later and give you some more details from that.
4:57
But they were asked specifically about whether or not this is
5:00
tied directly to the men's rights movement.
5:02
And so this is exactly the wording from MGTOW.com.
5:04
This is a response here.
5:05
Here we go.
5:06
No, this is a very common misconception that anyone who doesn't
5:09
appear to embrace or subscribe to a feminist view of the world
5:12
must somehow automatically be an MRA.
5:15
This came about recently when feminists became less willing to
5:19
use the term "anti-feminist" and now sling the term "MRA"
5:22
around like a Frisbee.
5:23
An MRA will actively pursue and negotiate and compromise to
5:26
restore in equilibrium in the hugely anti-male bias divorce
5:30
and anti-family court system.
5:32
The MGTOW can, will, may take another stance by practicing
5:36
prevention, and he is more likely to assume 100% agency in his
5:40
personal life to protect and preserve his own sovereignty
5:43
by rejecting cohabitation and/or refusing to sign a
5:46
fraudulent marriage contract in the first place.
5:49
MGTOW.com is not directly associated with or affiliated
5:52
in any way with any entity or other website in the men's
5:55
rights movement.
5:56
Think of it as its own facet of the manosphere and we'll get
5:59
more to the manosphere here in a second.
6:01
But the thing about stuff like this, guys, is anytime you get
6:03
into a group of people or a movement or something like that,
6:06
you always have to look and see what exactly does it mean.
6:09
And if you try to infer meaning or infer definitions into
6:13
something and may not always work out in your favor, it's better
6:16
to go to the source to kind of get an idea of what they feel
6:19
like the definition is.
6:20
Now, if they are stating things that are abjectly false, then
6:24
you can start inferring things into their own definitions.
6:26
But we should go to them to kind of get an idea of, okay,
6:29
according to MGTOW.com, what is the definition of MGTOW?
6:33
So let's go ahead and go to the website here for their
6:35
short definition of what it means to be a MGTOW.
6:39
"Min going their own way is a statement of self-ownership
6:42
where the modern man preserves and protects his own
6:44
sovereignty above all else.
6:46
It is the manifestation of one word.
6:49
No.
6:50
Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a
6:54
quote unquote man is, looking to no one else for social cues,
6:58
refusing to bow, serve, and kneel for the opportunity to be treated
7:02
like a disposable utility and living according to his own best
7:06
interests in a world which would rather he didn't.
7:09
And they give the definition of sovereignty here because
7:11
obviously that's a huge word in their definition.
7:13
So here's their definition.
7:14
Supreme power or authority, autonomy, independence,
7:17
self-government, self-rule, self-determination, freedom,
7:20
self-governing, okay?
7:22
So this, when you look at it, it doesn't seem like it's got
7:25
issues, right?
7:26
It seems like a fairly decent way of looking at things,
7:30
especially if you agree like what most people do and obviously
7:33
if you understand statistics and you can read, that men are
7:36
considered to be a disposable utility in a lot of different ways.
7:38
You know, when it comes to war, when it comes to the most dangerous
7:41
jobs, all those different things.
7:43
And obviously if you look at divorce courts and family courts
7:46
and things like that, men are just kind of tossed around as if
7:48
they're nothing.
7:49
So there are elements of this that I think are okay to embrace.
7:51
But before we get more into maybe my opinion of all this,
7:54
I want to kind of give you a better idea of what the history of
7:58
MGTOW is because this isn't an ideology that just popped up,
8:01
right?
8:02
You know, circa 2000 or something like that.
8:04
This is something that has been around for a while in different
8:06
incantations.
8:07
And so we can see that in those linkages are drawn here.
8:10
And so what I want to do is I want to read from the MGTOW.com
8:13
website because they have their own history of MGTOW.
8:16
And there are other articles that I found.
8:18
There are other articles that kind of give their interpretation
8:20
of what the history looked like.
8:21
But I just want to go straight from them to kind of get an idea
8:23
of what things look like from their perspective.
8:25
So here is the history of MGTOW according to MGTOW.com.
8:30
Men have gone their own way for centuries.
8:32
Welcome to version 2019.
8:35
There have been much, there has been much chatter about when MGTOW
8:39
originated online as a recent social phenomenon.
8:42
But one would really have to pull the camera back.
8:45
Way back to shop and hour.
8:47
Tesla, Beethoven, Galileo, or even Jesus Christ.
8:51
If you're up to arguing that.
8:52
MGTOW is not as old as fire, but it's as old as a man's first
8:56
discovery of it.
8:57
Fire always exists, even when you can't see it.
9:00
And it only takes a spark or a bolt of lightning to ignite a
9:03
blaze.
9:04
MGTOW could be regarded as a reaction to recent cultural shifts,
9:07
but the exact phrase "men going their own way" can be found in
9:10
print and newspaper clippings dating back to 1853 and spanning
9:14
the 20th century.
9:16
If MGTOW is fire, then perhaps feminism is gasoline.
9:20
Survival and mating are the success model for animals in the
9:24
wild.
9:25
That's the best they will ever do.
9:27
But marriage and children are not the highest pinnacle of
9:29
success for men.
9:31
Some 60% of men who ever lived on earth never had children.
9:34
So what did they dedicate their lives to?
9:37
For millennia, men have accomplished and contributed far
9:40
greater miracles of science, discovery and human endeavor.
9:43
And thanks to men like Orville and Wilbur Wright, man is the
9:46
only mammal that can't fly, that can fly.
9:50
Man is also the only species that has the capability of
9:53
deflecting an extinction level event.
9:55
But today, in the current culture, Time Magazine says
9:58
science reveals men are idiots because men are more likely
10:01
than women to take idiotic risks.
10:03
Let's pause for a moment and reflect on that.
10:06
Many women are more likely than women to take "idiotic risks."
10:11
Idiotic risks like attempting to break the sound barrier which
10:14
costs the lives of many test pilots.
10:16
Idiotic risks such as lighting the tail end of a rocket on fire
10:19
and catapulting himself into outer space.
10:22
Idiotic risks like building an armada of ships to cross the
10:25
world's most tempestuous oceans in order to definitively answer
10:29
the question for all of humanity that the world is indeed
10:32
round.
10:33
Idiotic risks which men have taken afford women the luxury
10:36
of boarding an aircraft and flying from New York to Los Angeles
10:39
in four and a half hours, while never once needing to take an
10:42
interest in the basic operating principles of a jet engine.
10:45
She can't explain thrust to weight ratios, but she will
10:48
complain the flight was delayed 30 minutes.
10:50
Today, you can see modern women contemplating the shape of
10:53
the earth, even though the question has been answered by
10:55
men centuries ago and most civilized six-year-olds have
10:58
already seen a globe in a classroom.
11:00
Is this why anyone who says women are smarter than men will
11:03
receive an automatic round of applause?
11:05
A modern man of mediocre intelligence can at least
11:08
begin to speculate the world is round by observing the way the
11:11
moon casts light and shadows exactly like a sphere.
11:14
The shadow of the earth and the moon is round during a lunar
11:17
eclipse and when observing other planets, he will notice that
11:20
they are all spherical in shape.
11:21
Our sun also appears circular at all angles and so too is the
11:25
notion of the sky, the motion of the night sky when photographed
11:28
using an apparatus created by other men.
11:31
Modern men are not as exceptionally stupid as time
11:34
magazine pretends.
11:35
A growing population of men will refuse to subscribe to
11:38
the utter nonsense perpetuated in the culture, the media,
11:41
magazines, on television or in society at large.
11:44
They are passionately curious, will question everything, and
11:47
are fundamental seekers of the truth, no matter how painful
11:50
the truth may be.
11:51
They are the men who will choose and prefer to go their own
11:54
way, independent of what are subjected to on a daily basis.
11:57
Always have and always will because if men didn't do it,
12:00
who else would?
12:01
Men are more likely than women to take idiotic risks.
12:04
Isn't that called a wage gap or is it an accomplishment gap?
12:09
If scientific studies reveal men are more likely than women
12:12
to take idiotic risks, then it must also be acknowledged that
12:15
men are more likely than women to be congratulated on their
12:18
successes as a result of taking those risks.
12:20
That kind of pro-male acknowledgement will be often
12:24
skewed by many to mean something anti-female.
12:27
The very same publishers at the time who proudly call
12:30
men idiots will even say a man's right to stand up for himself
12:34
and not be beaten down is somehow toxic and misogynistic
12:37
and can be found in their very own sexism section.
12:41
Men are no longer revered or respected on a most basic
12:44
level for their contributions and past sacrifices and are now
12:47
reduced to idiots for that.
12:49
The recent cultural explosion of MGTOW should have long been
12:52
affected in the face of this kind of nonsense, which is
12:54
force-fed to the sheep like or who buy it by the trough.
12:59
Men going their own way have now learned and adapted.
13:02
It is not simply worth taking idiotic risks anymore.
13:06
And since taking idiotic risks is the mark of an idiot,
13:09
then not taking them makes a man smart.
13:12
How ironic and appropriate that the very thing men have
13:15
been accused of is now something more men are quite
13:18
happy to avoid.
13:19
An ever expanding population of men have quite simply had
13:22
enough of watching their other men laying down their lives for
13:25
pointless reasons and giving their life's labor for some
13:28
greater good that just doesn't exist anymore.
13:30
Perhaps it never did.
13:32
Men have decided the greater good means something else
13:35
and it doesn't include their own disposability.
13:37
When a cost benefit analysis reveals there is no benefit,
13:40
it doesn't take a genius to remove himself from the
13:43
equation.
13:44
In this kind of climate, a smart man does not effectively
13:46
show his value by giving more or by working harder.
13:49
He shows his value by removing himself entirely.
13:52
It requires no effort to make the same impact.
13:55
Great men of history have already given enough so the
13:59
modern man can afford to take a century off.
14:02
The MGTOW First Law of Motion is this.
14:05
Don't just do something.
14:07
Stand there.
14:08
Clint Eastwood.
14:09
So guys, that is the entirety of the history.
14:11
So obviously that went to a lot of different areas.
14:14
And goodness, so a lot of different subject matters.
14:17
And we're certainly not going to be talking about all of
14:19
them here.
14:20
But it's something that's important for us to kind of be
14:22
looking at because there's a lot to impact here.
14:25
And we'll get more into that here in a second.
14:27
But notice how I'm kind of hesitant to use the word
14:29
movement.
14:30
And even in that history there, they haven't used the word
14:32
movement.
14:33
They use phenomenon and things like that because they do not
14:35
want this to be called a movement for whatever reason.
14:37
They hate that word.
14:38
So that's probably why I'm going to continue using it.
14:40
But anyway, they do respond to this in the Q&A section on
14:43
MGTOW.COM whenever it says MGTOW is a movement.
14:46
And so they're like MGTOW is not a movement.
14:48
This is their answer here.
14:49
It's an individual lifestyle choice.
14:52
Feminism is a movement.
14:54
Gay Pride is a movement.
14:56
They rely heavily on arranged conferences, public events
14:59
and loud organized parades shutting down traffic, public
15:02
meetings, designated representatives and speakers at the
15:04
United Nations, gobs of wasteful state funding, a collective
15:08
army all loudly marching forward toward a common goal,
15:11
requiring mass subscriptions and indoctrinating children to
15:14
public schools.
15:15
Else it fails.
15:16
MGTOW thrives without any of that.
15:18
It is the polar opposite of a movement.
15:21
So I kind of have my issues with their definition of what a
15:23
movement is, but they do make a good point.
15:25
And I just don't really understand how this wouldn't put
15:28
itself in that category, but that's not really the big deal
15:30
that we're talking about here.
15:31
But one thing I do want to get into a little bit earlier or
15:33
that we were talking about a little bit earlier was the
15:35
Manosphere.
15:36
So Manosphere.
15:37
M-A-N-O-S-P-H-E-R-E.
15:39
Manosphere.
15:41
This is something that is kind of an offshoot.
15:44
I guess MGTOW is part of the larger community, which would be
15:47
known as a Manosphere.
15:49
But there are some definitions here in terms of what the
15:51
Manosphere is.
15:52
And so again, we're going to go back to MGTOW.com to talk
15:54
about what exactly is the Manosphere.
15:57
Happiness is an eagle soaring through the air because that's
16:00
what it was made to do.
16:01
It worries not about the wind because the same wind that
16:04
creates resistance also gives lift.
16:06
Happiness is a fish swimming in the water because that's
16:08
what it was made to do.
16:10
It worries not about strong currents because the same
16:12
turbulent waters that cloud its view also turns up sustenance.
16:16
Happiness is a tree growing deep roots because that's what
16:19
it was made to do.
16:20
It worries not about the lack of freedom because the same
16:23
roots that hold it down also allow it to weather the storm.
16:26
Happiness is a man who protects and cares for his family,
16:29
goes forth and conquers, gives of himself for a greater cause,
16:33
and ensures his legacy because that's what he was made to do.
16:36
He doesn't fear resistance, turbulence or commitment because
16:39
his masculine frame turns resistance into rise, finds
16:42
sustenance in turbulent waters and relies on the steadfast
16:45
roots of commitment to prove stability for himself and
16:48
safety for those he vowed to protect.
16:50
But today's men are encouraged to meet resistance head on
16:54
while being shamed for expecting lift.
16:57
They're told to man up and tough it through turbulent waters
17:01
while being called misogynistic for expecting sustenance.
17:05
They're shamed into putting down roots in invertile
17:08
hypergamis soil that offers no support.
17:11
Then are financially ruined and separated from their children
17:14
when they cannot weather the storm.
17:16
And society wonders why these men walk away play or be played.
17:21
That's the world the vast majority of men wake up to in
17:24
the present day for these young men.
17:26
It's not a philosophy or an attitude.
17:28
It's reality.
17:29
The companies they work for demand loyalty, but will fire
17:32
them or lay them off without a second thought if profits dip
17:35
one tenth of one percent.
17:37
The women they encounter demand attention, loyalty, resources
17:40
and undue privilege while offering very little in return.
17:43
The natural hypergamis nature that once served them well in
17:47
their quest to secure the best possible mate is now a
17:50
sustained lifestyle, bringing an endless pursuit of bigger
17:53
and better.
17:54
The average young woman today is less concerned about the
17:56
number of quality men who would commit to her than she is
17:59
about the number of men who retweet a photo of her breasts.
18:03
Young men today attend churches with pastors who demand they
18:06
"man up" and support the church and its female parishioners.
18:10
But that same church does nothing to cultivate an environment
18:13
that encourages feminine strength.
18:15
Sunday after Sunday, they listen as the same Bible used
18:18
to preemptively absolve women of all past current and future
18:22
transgressions is used to condemn men.
18:25
They have best friends from childhood who disappear six months
18:28
after the wedding because the new bride doesn't want her
18:30
hubby hanging out with single losers.
18:32
They have to pick up the tab for dad's dinner because his
18:35
going broke because he's going broke trying to support mom,
18:38
her new living boyfriend and a 12 year old he's not certain
18:41
is even his.
18:42
The young man watches as middle management dad make
18:45
$70,000 per year tries to crank up the engine in his 11 year
18:49
old car to no avail and then has to give him a ride back to
18:52
his apartment on the CD side of town.
18:54
The young man shutters as he realizes a father who did
18:57
the right thing by sacrificing his life for his family can't
19:00
fit everything he owns into a 580 square foot apartment
19:04
with plenty of room to spare.
19:06
The young man has finally learned that men and women share
19:08
the same inherent character flaws, but not the same
19:11
consequences.
19:12
He has sinned and he has paid dearly.
19:15
She has sinned and she has been exalted.
19:18
He doesn't hate his corporation.
19:19
He hates the system.
19:21
He doesn't hate God.
19:22
He hates what the church does in God's name.
19:25
He doesn't hate women.
19:27
He hates the unforgiving female support machine.
19:29
He doesn't hate feminists or white knights.
19:31
He hates navigating the environment they create.
19:34
That's why there's a man of fear and that's why it's
19:37
growing.
19:38
Every day you can log on to a number of blogs to discuss how
19:41
meeting the resistance of feminism gives rise to notch
19:44
counts, how navigating the turbulent waters of society
19:47
churns up the sustenance of independence and how putting
19:50
down deep ideological roots in the soil of personal
19:53
responsibility can help you weather any storm life
19:56
throws at you.
19:57
Men haven't lost their need to find happiness by
19:59
providing, protecting, sacrificing, and conquering.
20:01
We've simply discovered that providing for the feminist,
20:04
for the modern feminist, working like a dog to protect
20:06
a family that can be taken away at a moment's notice or
20:09
risking our lives to conquer resources for some
20:11
ungrateful woman who claims she can do it on her
20:13
own is an empty way to live.
20:15
We haven't changed the mission.
20:17
We've changed the method.
20:18
We now provide ourselves and for ourselves and our
20:20
immediate families, protect our interests, make selective
20:23
sacrifices when the situation warrants and conquer
20:26
mountains of poom.
20:27
Yes, it actually says and conquer mountains of poom.
20:29
Back into the definition.
20:31
Men find happiness and purpose in the effort, regardless
20:34
of who benefits from the effort.
20:36
It took us a while to figure that out, and many of
20:38
us are still, still aren't there yet, but we're
20:40
slowly coming around.
20:41
Welcome to the man of fear, a place where we're not
20:43
afraid to call it exactly what it is.
20:45
Turning betas into men is a group effort.
20:48
No one is in charge.
20:49
There's no central theme.
20:50
We can't agree on a standard definition of anything,
20:53
and we spend a good amount of time shooting flaming
20:55
arrows at each other for no apparent reason.
20:57
To the casual observer, the man of fear may seem like
21:00
a disjointed collection of blogs and websites, but
21:03
the man of fear does not exist online.
21:05
It exists in the hearts and minds of the next
21:07
generation of men.
21:08
The man of fear is the big bang of chaotic masculine
21:11
disruption that will eventually bring into existence a
21:14
new personal world of freedom for those who choose to be
21:17
free.
21:19
It's evolving and forming right before our very eyes.
21:21
So again, guys, that's the end of that little section
21:24
there on the man of fear.
21:25
And there's a lot of elements of that that you just
21:27
got to be a fan of.
21:29
And I know a lot of you were hearing those things and
21:31
feeling like, yeah, yeah, that's me.
21:33
That's what I've experienced.
21:34
I don't really understand why I'm feeling this way,
21:36
but man, I'm kind of fired up, which is why so many
21:38
guys have kind of joined on and kind of become a part
21:41
of the man of fear and would consider themselves in the
21:44
big towel again, I can't I'm just going to call the movement.
21:47
So but here's the thing in summary, elements of what makes
21:50
up big towels is that these are independent guys.
21:53
These are lifetime bachelors.
21:55
They're absolutely opposed to matrimony.
21:57
They actually compare it to slavery whenever you start
21:59
getting into some of the writings completely focused on
22:02
selves.
22:03
So they would say, you know, it's like self drive and those
22:05
types of things.
22:06
But it's it's really just they're focused on themselves and
22:08
they're anti gynocentric.
22:09
And so gynocentric was a new word for me.
22:11
But obviously if I was sat and thought about it for a little
22:13
bit in the elements of the word, I would have figured it out.
22:15
But gynocentricism is it refers to dominant or exclusive
22:19
focus on women in theory or practice.
22:22
Okay.
22:23
So this could also mean the advocacy of focusing on women
22:26
in theory or practice.
22:27
So anything really can be considered gynocentric when
22:30
is concerned with a feminist point of view.
22:33
So that that's basically the way to do that.
22:35
But also there are multiple levels of what makes a
22:38
big towel.
22:39
So this isn't like something that you just opt into or opt
22:42
out of.
22:43
It's not like a it's not a binary.
22:44
It actually goes quite a bit deeper than that.
22:46
And so I found this several different areas.
22:48
And so I if there's a better version of this somewhere, I'll
22:51
try to find it.
22:52
But I found that there are actually technically four levels of
22:55
what a big towel is there.
22:57
There's five, but you know, there's a the first level is called
22:59
level zero.
23:00
So let me just kind of give you an idea of what this looks like to
23:02
kind of give you an idea as to what the world could you even do
23:05
with the MGTOW movement if you wanted to get into it.
23:08
So level zero is this situational awareness.
23:11
The member has taken the red pill and embraces the idea that
23:14
gender equality is a lie and propaganda.
23:17
So let's go to level one rejection of long term relationships.
23:22
The man rejects long term relationships, but will still
23:25
partake in short term relationships and sexual encounters.
23:28
Let's go to level two rejection of short term relationships.
23:32
The member won't participate in hookups or any form of short
23:36
term or sexual relationship.
23:38
Let's go to level three economic disengagement.
23:41
A member at this stage refuses to earn more money than is
23:45
necessary for sustaining life.
23:47
He views the government as tyrannical and is trying to
23:50
actively drain money from the bureaucrats.
23:53
And then we go to the final level, which is level four societal
23:56
disengagement.
23:57
This is as far as a mainstream MGTOW can go.
24:00
Here the man refuses to interact with society.
24:04
So I feel like some of the stuff before I got to the levels was
24:08
like, yeah, I can like some of that.
24:10
Some of that I'd like to kind of get a better idea of what
24:12
exactly they mean by that.
24:14
But when you get into these levels, again, the level zero is
24:17
situational awareness, level one rejection of long term
24:19
relationships, level two rejection of short term relationships,
24:22
level three economic disengagement and level four societal
24:25
disengagement.
24:26
Now we're getting a better idea of what the overall philosophy is.
24:30
And so everything that I've set up to this point in the previous
24:32
20 minutes or so of this podcast has kind of led to some of
24:35
these questions that I have.
24:36
So I've got some questions for the MGTOW movement.
24:39
Then I'm just going to kind of voice here to the ether because
24:41
I don't think I have any MGTOWs listening to this.
24:43
Or if you do, feel free to hit me up.
24:45
info@undontadotlife, shoot me an email.
24:47
But the first question is with men going their own way.
24:51
So where are you going?
24:54
So it's men going their own way.
24:56
MGTOW, where are you going?
24:58
What exactly is the point?
25:01
Is the point to get to level four and have complete societal
25:04
disengagement?
25:05
Because that's what it seems like.
25:08
But that kind of begs another question with men going their
25:11
own way.
25:12
So who's leading you?
25:14
You?
25:15
Are you leading you?
25:17
Because again, if we go back to some of the definitions, there's no
25:20
leader to this thing, right?
25:22
There's not like the president of the MGTOWs, right?
25:25
That's not a thing.
25:26
So who's leading you?
25:28
And I know for some guys, it's like, look, I lead myself and, you
25:31
know, I lead my family and I lead at work and blah, blah, blah.
25:34
But let's just say you didn't have any of the family.
25:36
Let's say you've done some of those other things that are on the
25:38
different levels of MGTOW and you've completely disengaged.
25:42
You still don't have a leader?
25:44
We'll get more into that here in a second.
25:46
But another question is outside of yourself.
25:48
What are you living for?
25:51
Because if you go back to level three of this, it was to not make
25:54
any more money than what is necessary to sustain life.
25:58
But they didn't say whose life?
26:00
It's implying that it's your life.
26:02
So outside of yourself, what are you living for?
26:06
Is there a higher purpose?
26:08
Or is it literally just about you?
26:12
But I mean, to be fair, let's go back just kind of a little bit
26:14
here.
26:15
If you're a Christian male, there are three things that I kind
26:18
of came up with as I was thinking through this movement.
26:20
Again, I know they hate it, but it's a movement.
26:22
There are three things about MGTOW that I think you should
26:26
like.
26:27
So as a Christian male, the first thing I think you should like is
26:30
that the quote "instilling masculinity in men."
26:34
That's a quote from this.
26:36
That has pretty much been there from the very beginning.
26:38
That's been a main focus from day one, whenever this movement was
26:41
given a name, MGTOW, right?
26:44
And obviously you know that we're huge fans of that here at Undaunted
26:47
Life, instilling masculinity in men.
26:49
This is something that we're not seeing trumpeted by anybody.
26:52
Culture isn't saying that we need to instill masculinity.
26:55
Culture is telling us that we don't even know what masculinity is,
26:58
right?
26:59
That's just, you know, something that was created by culture, this
27:01
evil culture.
27:02
Go back to our toxic masculinity podcast.
27:04
A few podcasts ago.
27:05
It's being created and engined up by all these people that are
27:08
trying to like, you know, suppress people that aren't, you know,
27:11
Christian white, straight males, like that type of thing, right?
27:14
But this is a good idea.
27:16
Like we're focusing on instilling masculinity in men.
27:19
How could that be a bad idea?
27:21
So if you're a Christian male, you got to like that.
27:23
The second thing is it's pushing men to develop and better
27:26
themselves.
27:27
You got to like that as well.
27:29
Obviously we focus on spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
27:31
And we're trying to provide you all stuff that will allow you to
27:34
develop that, right?
27:35
Cultivating, manly resilience.
27:37
That is a lot of working on yourself.
27:39
Now, when you start working on yourself and we've had a lot of
27:41
guys tell us about this, things start to go better around you,
27:44
right?
27:46
Your marriages get better.
27:47
Your relationships with your kids get better.
27:48
Your work gets better.
27:49
Your body gets better.
27:50
All those things get better.
27:51
And so the fact that this movement is pushing men to develop
27:54
and better themselves is absolutely fantastic.
27:57
And the last thing here that Christian mentioned really like
27:59
about the MGTOW movement is that it encourages male community.
28:02
I mean, guys, I know if you've been listening to this podcast
28:05
for any stretch of time, this is probably the first time you've
28:07
ever heard me say this.
28:08
But male community is really, really freaking important, right?
28:11
And most of you don't have it.
28:13
Remember, I talk about it all the time.
28:15
You stopped playing football or you got out of your fraternity
28:18
or you graduated college or, you know, you're not in the
28:21
military anymore.
28:22
You left the police or whatever the thing might be.
28:24
You don't have male community anywhere.
28:26
That's why we encourage you guys.
28:28
If you're in the Oklahoma City area, seven o'clock at the
28:30
Forge in Edmond, come see us, man.
28:32
We work out.
28:33
We read books together.
28:34
We're encouraging one another.
28:35
And, you know, I just had some, you know, some personal stuff come up
28:38
this morning.
28:39
And I text a bunch of the guys in the group saying I can't really
28:41
explain it right now, but guys just pray for me.
28:43
There's some stuff, major stuff going on right now.
28:45
And I can't talk about it.
28:46
Right?
28:47
I had males that I could just boom, go straight to my phone and
28:50
shoot off a text message to a dozen or two dozen guys if I wanted
28:53
to, right?
28:54
Ask yourself, do you guys have that?
28:56
Because if you don't, you need to cultivate that.
28:59
So again, make tiles encourage that because these guys are just,
29:02
you know, solo solo.
29:03
They're on these blogs for a reason.
29:05
They're in these kind of digital communities and meeting together
29:08
in actual communities for a specific purpose.
29:11
You might disagree with why they're getting together, but at least
29:13
they're getting together.
29:14
So those are kind of the three things that I think a Christian
29:16
male should like about the big MGTOW movement.
29:19
But also we got to kind of put a little bit of a wet blanket on
29:22
this thing here.
29:23
If you're a Christian male, there are three huge things that you
29:27
have to hate about the MGTOW movement.
29:29
Right?
29:30
The first thing is this.
29:32
Is that it clearly places men above women in the hierarchy of
29:37
importance.
29:38
Guys, if you've been around the church for any length of time or
29:43
if you've been a Christian or if you've read the Bible in any
29:45
shape or form, if you surmise or if you get the idea that God has
29:50
placed men above women in the hierarchy of importance, you've
29:53
got it wrong.
29:55
Now, and we talk about this.
29:57
You see this in Ephesians five when you kind of get into the
29:59
roles of husbands and wives and how we should interact.
30:03
God sees men and women equally.
30:06
But he's given them different responsibilities.
30:10
So different but equal, right?
30:13
So there's not some sort of thing where God is preferring a
30:16
man over a woman.
30:18
And so for us as thinking Christians, we can't just buy the
30:21
MGTOW thing can, you know, just hook line and sinker because the
30:25
thing about it is, is, and you're talking to a guy that is not
30:28
exactly sensitive to feminist ideology or things, but there are
30:32
some things in here that are just very anti women.
30:35
And I mean women in general, because here's the deal guys is
30:38
there have been men that have been treated horrifically by women.
30:41
We've talked about some examples of it on this podcast.
30:43
We know some guys.
30:44
I know some guys personally that have had some horrific things
30:46
done by evil satanic women.
30:48
But that doesn't mean women as a group of people are bad because
30:52
we would be the first ones that would be standing up saying,
30:55
Hey, all men are bad just because a one man raped somebody or one
30:58
man killed somebody.
30:59
Not all men are bad.
31:00
We'd be the first ones to say that.
31:01
Well, you can't categorically shame a group of people, right?
31:04
You can't do that.
31:05
Whether you group them by race, you group them by gender, you
31:08
group them by ideology, you can't do that type of a thing, right?
31:11
You can't be a Christian thinking male.
31:13
You can't be one of those.
31:16
You can't be a man that's really striving for any type of
31:19
greatness and think that way.
31:21
And so that's a huge issue with the make tao movement because
31:24
like I said, guys, there's elements of this that you could dig that
31:26
you could really, really get behind.
31:28
But this idea that we just need to completely eradicate women
31:31
from our lives is absolutely, it's unsustainable.
31:33
As a species for one, if you're just thinking as like, you
31:36
know, a evolutionary biologist, but even beyond that, it just
31:39
it's very untenable to even have a society.
31:42
So the second thing, if you're a Christian male in terms of what
31:45
you should hate about the make tao movement is that it's a
31:47
completely selfish ideology, right?
31:51
You hear all these different things about these guys, you know,
31:53
making just so much, just as much money to sustain life.
31:56
And but the real underlying courage of this, and I may do a
31:59
future episode on this, it's just, it's addicted to leisure and
32:03
hobbies, which is incredibly selfish, right?
32:06
Because if you're a married man with kids and you really, really,
32:08
really like golf and you go golf in five or six times a week,
32:12
you're taking an unbelievable amount of hours away from your
32:15
family and probably away from your work as well.
32:17
It's a problem because you're addicted to it.
32:19
And then you also have these guys that, you know, they build up
32:21
all this tension over, you know, six, seven, eight months.
32:24
And then they do that, that once a year get together, that once
32:26
a year trip without the family and then it's just like they get
32:29
there and then it's just leisure, right?
32:31
Just because we're addicted to leisure, we just want to sit
32:33
around and do nothing.
32:35
But I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 10 verse 24 here, it says,
32:38
let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.
32:41
I don't see that with a make tao movement.
32:43
These guys do not give a crap about other people.
32:46
Well, I guess they give a crap about other people to the extent
32:49
through which they could actually influence them, right?
32:52
And convince them that they should be a make tao as well.
32:55
That they should be a man that's just going to go their own way.
32:57
I think they care about that far, but they don't care about
33:00
society writ large.
33:01
They just don't, they just don't give a crap.
33:04
And it's just, it's completely untenable with a Christian
33:07
worldview as well to, to be this selfish, to not be worried
33:11
about your neighbor, to not love your neighbor as yourself.
33:14
Because with this ideology, you technically don't want neighbors.
33:17
You don't want anyone telling you anything or trying to influence
33:20
you in any way.
33:21
And I don't know that that's a good thing for us to be looking at.
33:24
And the final thing here that a Christian man should hate about
33:27
the make tao movement is that it has no anchor point.
33:30
There's no foundation aside from self, which is a horrible
33:34
anchor point.
33:35
Why would anyone trust themselves that much?
33:38
But there's no anchoring ideology except for inward thinking,
33:43
inward, you know, introspection, right?
33:45
Go back to the last one when you're basically talking about, you
33:48
know, they're completely selfish in their ideology.
33:51
There's no anchor point in anything.
33:53
For us as Christians, we do have an anchor point.
33:55
The anchor point is the gospel.
33:57
Some people would say, oh, the anchor point is the Trinity.
33:59
Like, I don't care exactly how you say it.
34:01
But the thing about it is, is our worlds are completely different
34:03
if Jesus didn't, you know, become raised from the dead, right?
34:07
So that's the anchor point for everything, for everybody, right?
34:12
Because if he didn't raise from the dead, then we've got other
34:15
problems.
34:16
We've got other ideologies we have to consider now.
34:18
Because the whole point was he said he was the way the truth
34:20
in the life, and then he came back, right?
34:23
Not spiritually, but bodily.
34:25
That's our anchor point as Christians.
34:27
And then you start getting into apologetics, you get into
34:29
history, you get into all these different things to basically,
34:31
you know, solidify that position within your life and strengthen
34:34
it within your ideology and your soul, right?
34:37
But MGTOW doesn't have that.
34:39
MGTOW is focused on yourself.
34:41
Don't have any relationships.
34:42
I mean, just think about it.
34:43
Go back to the levels whenever the first thing was like, okay,
34:46
if you're at this level, you can have some kind of short-term
34:48
hookup relationships.
34:50
Go back to that definition where it said, you know, they try to,
34:52
you know, conquer mountains of poon.
34:54
Like how useful is that?
34:56
Like it's going to be exciting for a time, but it's empty.
34:59
It's baseless.
35:00
Like I just heard a story about a guy yesterday, one of my wife's
35:03
friends, I guess this dude just travels the world, travels the
35:06
country.
35:07
And his whole thing is he will get a hotel room, he will get on
35:10
Tinder every single night in a new city and he'll hook up with a
35:13
random chick from that city and then drive on to the next city.
35:16
It's kind of a hippie.
35:18
Like how long is that going to be sustainable, right?
35:21
And some of you, you know, thinking to yourself, man,
35:23
sounds pretty awesome.
35:24
But the thing about his is it has no foundation.
35:26
What's his anchor point?
35:28
His dick?
35:29
Like is that it?
35:30
Like, okay, I need to get my jollies off and then just move on
35:33
to the next city.
35:34
That's going to, it's going to run out sometime.
35:37
Like, and I'm not talking about bodily.
35:38
I'm talking about the, the, whatever he's getting from that's
35:41
going to run out.
35:42
And so that's a concern I have for guys that have bought this
35:45
Midtown stuff, hook line and sinker is where does it lead to?
35:49
Do you really want to get to level four where you are completely
35:53
outside a society that you have, that have no influence on anything?
35:57
Because the thing about it is, is if you're not a part of society,
36:00
how are you going to influence society?
36:02
You can't just throw grenades into it and then all of a sudden be like,
36:05
ah, it's fine.
36:06
Like little mind grenades.
36:07
Like, ah, this is going to be no big deal.
36:09
Like take, take this, this idea that I had in my brain and started
36:12
to take it into your life, it's just a problem.
36:15
So again, guys, just as we wrap up here, Midtown has some good
36:19
elements.
36:20
And if you're going to talk about it with other buddies or be a part
36:23
of these communities, even if online, you know, look at some of
36:26
the good things, right?
36:27
You know, instilling masculinity.
36:28
That's a good, push yourself, you know, develop yourself, right?
36:31
You know, be a part of the community.
36:32
Take that.
36:33
That's great.
36:34
But there are some very, very dangerous ideas within this
36:37
ideology.
36:38
And so I would ask any of you guys that are considering this to
36:41
really think twice about it, especially if you're thinking
36:43
Christian male.
36:44
And if you're not a Christian, we're especially glad that you're
36:46
listening to this podcast.
36:47
But dude, hit me up.
36:48
Email me and let's talk a little bit about it because I think even
36:51
if you're going to have a non-theist point of view and lifestyle,
36:53
there are better ways to live than to be a Midtown.
36:55
All right, guys.
36:56
Before we let you out of here, we're going to do a quick resilience
36:58
boost.
36:59
As you know, by now, we are a men's ministry and our mission is
37:01
cultivating mainly resilience.
37:02
And specifically we do that by providing content that for just
37:05
spiritual, mental and physical toughness.
37:07
So today we're going to work on the mental resilience and I'm just
37:09
gonna give you the website www.mgtow.com, MGTOW.com.
37:14
So there's all kinds of stuff on that website that I didn't even
37:17
talk about.
37:18
There's a whole page of resources that has all these videos and
37:21
blogs and different things.
37:22
And so I would encourage you to go and click around a little bit.
37:24
Don't stay long.
37:25
Not really necessary.
37:26
But there's a lot of things that you can look at there because
37:28
here's the thing is even if the stuff that's being propagated in
37:31
these videos or on these blogs doesn't really agree with you,
37:34
right?
37:35
If that's not really something that you're really into, that's
37:37
completely okay.
37:38
Like, you know, that's not really that big of a deal at all.
37:40
But you should know what people think.
37:42
You should know how people respond to things.
37:44
Because that's the thing is if you run into somebody that has
37:46
this ideology and you never thought through it yourself, it's
37:49
gonna be a problem for you to maybe have that conversation and
37:51
maybe kind of pull them off of that way of thinking, right?
37:54
So click around on that.
37:55
Check it out.
37:56
And if you have anything special for me that you want to report,
37:58
make sure you shoot me an email.
37:59
Thanks again guys for listening to the podcast.
38:01
As always, please subscribe on iTunes, SoundCloud or Google Play
38:04
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So when you leave a review, leave a few sentences and then move
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on with your day.
38:25
We really appreciate it.
38:26
I'm currently booking speaking engagements for the entirety of
38:28
2019.
38:29
So if you want me to come speak to your team, speak on your
38:31
podcast, be interviewed in front of a group of people, whatever
38:33
you think, hit me up at info at undontadotlife.
38:36
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Instagram and Twitter @undontadlife or Facebook.com/undontadlife.
38:41
Check out our free devotionals on the U version Bible app.
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Just search undontadlife under plans.
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And as always, we want to thank the band, August Burns Red for
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allowing us to use their music library for our content.
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The intro outro track on this podcast is our song King of Sorrow,
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which is off their latest record entitled Phantom Anthem.
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Links are in the description.
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I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
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Remember, I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
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Remember, keep cultivating manly resilience, keep forging
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spiritual, mental, and physical toughness.
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Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
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[MUSIC]