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051 - The Caravan

November 29, 2018 53m 14s Full transcript available
051 - The Caravan
0:00 / 53m 14s
In this episode, we tackle the migrant caravan and the misconceptions surrounding it. We break down the realities of asylum, the political implications, and the biblical perspective on immigration, urging listeners to engage thoughtfully and compassionately with this complex issue.
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0:30 This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
0:45 All right, guys. Today we are talking about the migrant caravan. So this has come up in a lot of
0:50 discussions here recently. And this is honestly something that I've been wanting to talk about
0:54 for several weeks. I wanted to talk about even before the midterm elections when this first kind
0:58 of came up. But we didn't really know what it was going to be. Right? So there were a lot of people,
1:03 there were alarmists on both sides of the political aisle that were telling us it was going to be
1:06 one thing or it was going to be another. And you know, it's still basically working itself out,
1:12 but it kind of came to a head over the weekend. But just for those of you out there that maybe
1:16 don't even know what I'm talking about, let me kind of bring you up to speed here a little bit,
1:19 even though I'm pretty sure most of you are aware of this. So about a month, month and a half
1:24 ago, which was, you know, before the midterm elections, we started seeing reports about a
1:29 migrant caravan that was going to be coming up from Central America. So the timing of this
1:35 migrant caravan was obviously very, very interesting. There were a lot of people, including myself,
1:39 that figured that Sunday or Monday before the midterm elections on Tuesday that we were going
1:45 to be seeing these clashes with this migrant caravan and United States authorities. It didn't
1:49 quite work out that way, but that was the idea. But this caravan includes people mainly from
1:55 Honduras and Guatemala and El Salvador that are supposedly seeking political asylum. So
2:02 as of right now, as the recording of this podcast, which is the day before it was released,
2:05 the night before it was released, because I wanted to make sure we had the latest information on
2:08 everything. There's around 6000 migrants that are currently hanging out in Tijuana, Mexico.
2:14 They're in a shelter there. They're not exactly hanging out. I didn't mean to be dismissive,
2:17 but they're in a shelter there in Mexico. And there are hundreds more that are joining them
2:23 every single day. And in a nearby city of Mexicali, there's about 2000 migrants that are chilling
2:29 there. So originally, there was much larger groups that were heading up through Central
2:34 America and then through Mexico. But there have been, you know, different points where this caravan,
2:39 where there were a lot of people that joined in. And then there was also times where we just
2:42 saw a lesser number of people. But one thing that I did find that was very interesting
2:47 is the fact that there's, you know, at different times, there were close to 8000 people
2:51 that are wanting to get in through this caravan. Because what we heard from a lot of people mainly
2:56 on the political left, but someone on the political right was we don't need to be talking about this.
3:00 We're making this too big of an issue. Trump's making this too big of an issue. By the time this
3:03 thing actually happens, you know, there's going to be dozens or maybe a few hundred people that
3:07 have come to the border. But this is a fairly significant attempted migration or or invasion,
3:14 however, you decide to say it. But around 8000 people, that's pretty substantial. But the thing is,
3:19 this did come to a head over the weekend, because hundreds of these migrants tried to force their
3:25 way into the country. Okay, so they rushed the border port of entry near San Pedro, California.
3:31 Many of them were throwing rocks at border patrol agents. Migrants were pushed back by border
3:36 control. A lot of these officers were shooting tear gas and pepper balls at these individuals.
3:42 And so that got a ton of play in the media, no matter what side of the political aisle you're on,
3:46 you got a lot of play on those different things. We've we know more about tear gas now than we know
3:51 than we've known about in any other time in American history, right? Because it's been talked
3:54 about so much. But there's a lot of things that have happened with this caravan. And there's a lot
3:59 of things that we need to talk about. But one of the things from the very beginning is I just
4:02 wanted to clear up some common misconceptions or misreporting that we're seeing in the media. And
4:09 I'm going to be picking on all forms of media here on both sides of the aisle. But I think
4:13 there were there were just some common things that are put out there that are just absolutely
4:16 false. Well, and I think the first the I guess the best place to start would be just what political
4:21 asylum even is. So a lot of people hear asylum that they're seeking asylum. And then what is that?
4:28 How do you even get get that? How do you apply for that? Is that something you apply for online?
4:32 It's just one of those things that no one really knows when you talk about it. So I wanted to
4:35 clear that up for you guys. So essentially, you have to legally be defined as a refugee in order
4:41 to apply for asylum in the United States of America. Okay, and there are two standards by which you
4:46 have to meet in order to for someone to be legally defined as a quote unquote refugee. Okay, the first
4:54 is that the asylum applicant must establish that they fear persecution in their home country.
4:59 They're they're going to be persecuted in some way, which goes to the second standard that they
5:04 have to meet, which is that they must prove that they would be persecuted on account of one of five
5:09 protected grounds. And those are nationality, political opinion, race, religion, or social group.
5:17 So if you can prove those two things, then you can apply for asylum to the United States. Now,
5:22 when you apply for asylum, asylum is not guaranteed. I feel like that's kind of a dub, but I did
5:26 fill the need to point that out. But when you apply for asylum, like so, as an example, if you're
5:32 coming up to our southern border, you have to come through an official port of entry. Okay, so
5:39 you cannot be crossing the desert illegally, or having a coyote, not not the animal, mind you,
5:46 like the people that are paid by cartels and other groups to actually ferry people across the border
5:52 into the United States. You know, you can't have, you'll be with a coyote and then go throw up your
5:57 hands and be like, Oh, no, I'm here. I wouldn't need asylum. I need to apply for asylum. That's not how
6:02 it works. You're actively in the process of breaking the laws of the sovereign nation of the United
6:06 States. No, you cannot apply for asylum at that time. That's not how it works. Another thing that
6:12 we look at right now is is refugees compose about one tenth of the total annual immigration to the
6:19 United States. And again, we're talking about legal immigration. And so that's a much higher
6:24 number than what people realize 10% of every illegal immigrant that comes to the United States every
6:29 year is one that would be considered a refugee. So that's something that I wanted to kind of clear
6:34 up. But here's some other misperceptions or things that have been misreported that I think are
6:38 important to talk about. One is that the border patrol behavior is somehow different or more heavy
6:46 handed under the Trump administration. So the Trump administration has become a lightning rod
6:51 for this issue because the entire time during the 2006 run up to the presidential election
6:56 during the Republican primaries and obviously in the general election, yeah, Donald Trump making
7:00 the wall and illegal immigration one of if not the biggest central issue of why you should vote for
7:07 him. So obviously when the Trump administration, its administration responds actively and some
7:13 would consider violently even though it's in defense, they consider this to be some sort of crazy new
7:18 thing. But don't get it twisted. The same things that are happening at the border right now
7:23 have been happening since we've been having these issues at the border. So essentially,
7:30 every year of Barack Obama's presidency, remember the left's favorite president of all time other
7:34 than JFK, they were using tear gas on these groups of migrants trying to storm borders at
7:41 different times for the eight years prior to Trump getting into office. So tear gas and pepper balls
7:47 and things like that were used under President Obama and the Obama administration regularly.
7:53 It was done all the time. So this idea that Trump's doing something different or more heavy handed
7:57 is just ridiculous. Another misconception is that the caravan is mainly women and children
8:03 because most of the images that we see, especially from mainstream media outlets,
8:08 you see these these women that are crying and and these kids that that look hungry and they're
8:12 dirty and all these different things. And yes, there are certainly women and children as a part
8:17 of this group, but it is mainly young men, mainly men, like working aged able bodied men.
8:25 That is the overwhelming majority of the people that are in this migrant caravan. Okay. And I guess
8:29 another misperception is that these migrants are coming to the United States to just get asylum.
8:37 Because that's what we keep seeing, right, is that there's a migrant caravan that is coming here
8:40 because they're seeking asylum. But we've got to be realistic about this. This is about economic
8:46 opportunity for the overwhelming majority of these people. Yes, are some of these people
8:51 from El Salvador, are they are they seeing issues from MS 13, which is, you know, the birthplace
8:57 of MS 13 is in El Salvador? Are they are they having issues there where they are in danger?
9:03 Sure. But that's not even close to the majority of the people that are in this caravan. There
9:08 are countless numbers of people that have been interviewed, not by right wing, you know, crazy
9:13 people or anything like that just by news outlets. And they're basically saying, look, I can't even
9:17 afford a living in my home country. That's why I'm coming to the United States. So I'm not going
9:22 to give you an opinion as to good or bad on that. But again, we keep being sold this thing that
9:27 this is about asylum. When it's obviously about economic opportunity and opportunity for a better
9:32 life, whatever they constitute as better for most of these people, right? But the thing that's
9:36 interesting about this is we have an easy proof here that this really isn't about asylum, that
9:42 it's actually about economic opportunity. Because why else would these people not have just stopped
9:48 and taken the asylum that was offered by the sovereign nation of Mexico? Because these people
9:53 that were coming up from Honduras and Guatemala and El Salvador and some other places, when they
9:57 got to Mexico, the Mexican government said, we will offer you asylum. And they said, nah, no, thanks.
10:03 We're going to keep heading north to go to the United States. Why? Is it because our asylum is
10:10 better than Mexico's asylum? Because our application's easier. Right? I mean, it's just weird. So it's
10:17 one of those things that just proves that for the majority of these people, it is not about asylum.
10:21 And again, if this is about asylum, that these people feel like they are in danger from their
10:26 home countries, what about these people that are waving the flags of their home country at our border?
10:31 These people that are fleeing El Salvador, because it's apparently so dangerous and they're just
10:37 really, really scared, but they're waving their flag and it's yelling things like, yes, we can,
10:42 as they basically try to pound their way through the border. I mean, it's just kind of silly to me.
10:47 I mean, you got that Nimwit that was just elected to Congress in New York. What's her name?
10:52 Ocasio-Cortez, that person that was elected to the house, who doesn't really know anything
10:57 about anything every time she opens her mouth. It's another blunder. But this week, she compared
11:02 this, the people that are trying to migrate here, this migrant caravan to Jews during World War II.
11:07 And so what's funny about that is I don't think Jews during World War II, whenever they were
11:14 being, you know, taken in by other countries, I don't think they would be waving the Nazi flag
11:19 at the border of another country they were trying to immigrate to, right? So stupid,
11:24 that someone would say that. Another misconception that I think has been thrown out there about
11:28 this caravan is that Trump or the Trump administration made up the phrase. This is kind of a small one,
11:34 but that they made up the phrase the caravan or migrant caravan. The thing is, is that phrasey
11:41 ology has been used literally since George W. Bush was in office. That was the earliest article
11:46 that I could find was where that was mentioned in terms of the caravan or migrant caravan. So Trump
11:51 didn't make that up. Here's another thing that's ridiculous that Trump said. Trump said or implied
11:57 that there were terrorists from the Middle East inside this caravan. Okay. So is it possible that
12:05 there are Middle Eastern terrorists that have infiltrated the caravan that's heading towards or
12:11 is now at the Southern border of the United States? Yes, it is possible. Is it likely? No.
12:18 That was a really, really dumb thing for Donald Trump to say because he has no evidence for that.
12:26 No evidence whatsoever that that there are Middle Eastern terrorists that there's members of ISIS
12:30 or Boko Haram that are hanging out with the caravan. But there is something that we see on the other
12:35 side of the issue is that there are no criminals in this caravan. You'll see a lot of people on the
12:39 MSNBC or CNN or or something like that. He'll say that there's no criminals in this caravan.
12:44 There's no members of MS 13 and it's caravan. There's no members of drug cartels that are in
12:49 this caravan. But that doesn't seem to be the case either because there have been a lot of interviews
12:54 with these people in the migrant caravan along the way and they're admitting to they're being
13:00 known criminals that are walking with them. Now, those people are probably going to have to pay
13:05 for saying that because we have them on camera and we have their quotes online now. So they're
13:10 probably going to have to pay if those people get caught. But the idea that there are no criminals
13:13 in this caravan, that's just a bunch of people that need help is kind of ridiculous as well.
13:18 And so those are just some of the misperceptions I just wanted to clear up and there are certainly
13:23 more, but those are the ones that I felt that were most pertinent. But the big overarching thing here
13:28 guys is that again, this brings up the political debate about illegal immigration. And so it's
13:36 something that I've been asked about before and I've been asked about regularly. And actually,
13:39 if you go back to episode 29 of this podcast, which was Q and A volume four, you know, I was
13:44 asked about this. I think it was the second or third question that I answered on that podcast.
13:48 And I kind of gave a lot of random thoughts. And so I would encourage you to go back to get more
13:52 of the long form answer on these things. But I talked about how people can flate immigration
13:58 and illegal immigration. People just kind of use those phrases or words interchangeably,
14:02 which is completely inappropriate. I talked about the the lottery system for work visas
14:08 here in the United States and how ridiculous that is. So these incredibly talented people
14:13 that we should want to be able to stay here, we cannot hand pick them or choose them to stay
14:17 here. We have to put them in a lottery. And if they strike out of the lottery three times,
14:21 they have to go back to their home country, which is absurd. I talked about DACA. We talked about
14:26 how I talked to DACA recipients and I've talked to people that come from illegal immigrant families
14:30 and how it's such a really it's a strange and convoluted situation. It's so hard to be black and
14:37 white on DACA on the recipients. But the point I did make in and I agree with this point even
14:43 today here months later after that recording is just because you did not break the law
14:48 doesn't necessarily mean that you can keep the benefits of the law that your parents broke.
14:55 And the example that I used at the time was if your parents had embezzled money and
15:01 right before they were caught, they transferred all the money to you and then they were caught,
15:08 right? So do you get to keep the money that your parents embezzled? I know that a lot of
15:13 people would call that a false equivalency, but at least you get the point. Like no, it's not
15:18 these DACA recipients fault that their parents broke the law of the United States and came here
15:23 illegally. And maybe the only thing they ever know is the United States and English and all
15:28 those different things like whatever that may be. But can we really say that it's just completely
15:32 okay that they should stay here? I mean, I think there's a debate to debate to be had there.
15:35 I also talked about the fact that when we looked at scripture, when we looked at different things,
15:40 Jesus respected the law of the land and told us to do the same. And I think that was very important.
15:45 But there's also an important distinction here, and I point this out in that podcast as well,
15:51 is that we don't base our laws off of the Bible that the Bible doesn't address
15:56 illegal immigration directly. So we kind of have to surmise meeting in a lot of these different
16:04 areas. And so that's the thing that's difficult because there's a lot of things in the Bible that
16:07 are very clear that are not up for debate. But then there are other things that are absolutely
16:12 debatable. And so where do we go on this illegal immigration issue? And so one thing I stopped
16:18 short of doing on episode 29 of this podcast was doing a deep dive into the arguments or the
16:26 scriptures that could maybe give us some hints as to how we should act or how we should think
16:31 about the illegal immigration issue. And so one thing I want to do on this podcast is go a little
16:36 bit deeper. But the thing about it is is I want this to be as cogent and as direct for you guys
16:42 as possible. And so I want to bring to you this article that I found that I feel like did the best
16:49 job of bringing the arguments together for this. Okay. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to
16:55 be reading large portions of this article to you because I feel like it had a very good narrative
17:00 to it. But I am going to post the link to the article so that you can read it later in its entirety.
17:05 But this was an article written by James R. Edwards, Jr. back in 2009. And it was from the
17:10 Center of Immigration Studies. And it's an article entitled a biblical perspective on immigration
17:15 policy. So I will just say upfront before I start reading, excuse me again, before I start reading,
17:22 there are different parts of this article that I don't necessarily agree with. There are different
17:27 parts that I feel like we're not described in a nuanced enough manner. But I feel like overall
17:34 that Edwards did an amazing job here of describing some different ways that we should be thinking
17:40 about this. And so the article has three main focuses. And he goes into these three different
17:46 areas. The first is the biblical role of civil government. The second is migration in scripture.
17:53 So different examples of where we see migration in the scriptures. And the third is the responsibility
17:58 of immigrants and would be immigrants. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to go ahead and go
18:04 to the article here. And like I said, I'm going to go ahead and read large swaths of it. But I'm
18:07 going to be leaving some sections out that we're either just, you know, redrilling the same point
18:12 home or something like that. But I feel like this will be beneficial for all of us. So I'm
18:16 going to go ahead and talk in the first section here and go into the first thing, which is the
18:20 biblical role of civil government. So here we go. A central question must be answered before a
18:26 biblically informed immigration policy may be determined. What role does God intend civil
18:30 government to fulfill? After all, earthly government will be the mechanism through which public policy
18:35 is formulated. Scripture clearly indicates that God charges civil authorities with preserving order,
18:41 protecting citizens and punishing wrongdoers. A prime passage is Romans 13 versus one through seven.
18:47 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except
18:51 from God and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities
18:56 resists what God has appointed. And those who resist will incur judgment for rulers are not a
19:02 terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is an authority?
19:08 Then do what is good. And you will receive his approval for he is God's servant for your good.
19:13 But if you do wrong, be afraid for he does not bear the sword in vain for he is the servant of God
19:20 and a venture who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore, one must be in
19:24 subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience. For because of
19:29 this, you also pay taxes for the authorities are ministers of God attending to this very thing.
19:34 Pay to all what is owed to them, taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed,
19:40 respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. The authority God delegates to
19:46 civil government focuses on justice, not mercy, though this is not saying law should not be tempered
19:52 by mercy. Biblical teachings of mercy generally apply to individual conduct, not to civil authorities.
19:59 Further, standards of justice are not fully moral if they are not accompanied by judgment
20:04 and punishment. These two elements, judgment and punishment are integral or else justice is not
20:10 just. In other words, civil government has been delegated authority to use force because
20:15 government fulfills the role of protector of a specific body politic and the members of that
20:20 political society. The reason the sort of justice has been delegated to earthly governments is for
20:25 protection of a defined set of people who live under a government's jurisdiction. These points
20:30 concerning civil government relate to immigration policy in several ways. One is the implication
20:36 of national sovereignty, which includes the right to determine the grounds for admitting foreigners
20:40 into the jurisdiction and on what conditions. It also leads to the deduction that immigration
20:46 policy should principally benefit citizens, not harm citizens well being. Further, its implications
20:52 include the prerogative of punishment and expulsion of those foreigners who do not abide by the civil
20:57 laws, including immigration laws, as well as determining the criteria and conditions for foreigners
21:03 admission. These sorts of prudential judgments may change according to the prevailing situation.
21:08 And now it's going to get into a little discussion about Old Testament principles.
21:12 Even the passages of scripture, most often cited by religious advocates of mass immigration and
21:17 amnesty plainly do not argue for open borders. Rather, these writings generally reflect equal
21:23 justice under the law principles. Consider Leviticus chapter 19, verses 33 and 34. When a
21:30 stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger
21:35 who sojourns with you as the native among you. And you shall love him as yourself for you were
21:41 strangers in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God. Similarly, reads Exodus 22 21. You shall not
21:48 wrong a sojourner or oppress him for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. Dr. Stephen Steinlight
21:54 has noted that the Hebrew term for sojourn means temporary stay. A related term used in some
22:00 scriptural translations is stranger. One Bible dictionary says this word generally denotes a
22:05 person from a foreign land residing in Palestine. Such persons enjoyed many privileges in common
22:11 with the Jews, but still were separate from them. The relation of the Jews to strangers was regulated
22:16 by special laws. And we see this in Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy 23, 24 verses 14 through 21, 25,
22:23 5 and 26 verses 10 through 13. This Bible dictionary defines two classes of aliens. The first,
22:30 those who were temporary visitors who owned no landed property and two, those who held permanent
22:36 residence without becoming citizens. We see this in Leviticus 22 10 and Psalm 1912. Both of these
22:42 classes were to enjoy under certain conditions the same rights as other citizens as seen in Leviticus
22:48 1933 and 34 and Deuteronomy 10 19. Again, those rights amounted to equal standing under the law
22:55 or have the benefit of the rule of law. Therefore, it is biblically inaccurate to incorporate automatically
23:01 and dogmatically permanent immigration into every such term. Nor is it reasonable to jump to the
23:07 conclusions many on the open border side do about related passages. These activists claim that such
23:13 passages mandate that a society welcome any and all foreigners presenting themselves. No such
23:18 passage state or imply overlooking illegitimately committed on the part of an alien in his entry.
23:24 Nor is there any requirement of unlimited or uncontrollable admittance of those who are members
23:29 of another nation or society. Assertions like those are at a minimum, a wrong reading. Such
23:34 verses actually indicate nothing about the grounds for alien admission to ancient Israel. Another
23:40 theme stands out in the Bible. God regards borders as meaningful and important. See, for instance,
23:45 Proverbs 22 28 and Proverbs 23 verses 10 and 11. Consider Deuteronomy 32 8. When the most high
23:53 gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the people
23:58 according to the number of the sons of God Ezekiel 47 verses 13 through 23 details the promise lands
24:04 boundaries numbers 34 verses 1 through 15 describes the borders the Lord established for each tribe
24:10 of Israel. Deuteronomy 19 14 commands against moving a neighbor's tribes boundary, stone marking
24:17 a stone marking a given tribe of Israel's inheritance in the promise land. Another example appears three
24:23 months after the Israelites left Egypt. The base of Mount Sinai was made off limits. See Exodus 19
24:29 verse 12 under penalty of death until the people had been consecrated resident aliens who had children
24:36 and settled in Israel largely largely because of Israel's failure to complete the mandate to
24:41 remove them were allowed private property in Israel. We see this in Ezekiel 47 verses 21 through 23.
24:47 However, numerous times Israelites are warned against letting the aliens pagan practices corrupt
24:52 God given moral standards. In short, the Old Testament teaches fair treatment of resident foreigners
24:58 with certain requirements of the aliens related to religious and civil legal standards. It also
25:03 instructs that aliens were to assimilate to the Hebrew culture boundaries are meaningful as well
25:09 and foreign presence among the Hebrews on several occasions was a curse. Few details of immigration
25:14 procedures standards or other policies policy prescriptions appear to infer some open border or
25:20 mass amnesty mandate from what actually appears in scripture is wrong. And now he's going to move
25:25 on to a section a little bit talking about justice and mercy. Justice and mercy along with a godly
25:30 life are fundamental principles of biblical conduct. Justice and mercy are complementary
25:35 principles. They informed the thoughts of America's founders as they fashioned a government for the
25:39 new nation. Government's wielding of a sword of justice is well established biblically as discussed
25:45 earlier. Jesus did not challenge that principle either toward Rome or other earthly authorities
25:51 nor did he question the legitimacy of a civil or religious government. When considering mercy as
25:56 public policy, however, an important distinction must be drawn. Not every moral or ethical teaching
26:02 in the Bible fits cleanly or applies equally to both individuals and societies. This is certainly
26:09 true with justice and mercy. The case for civil authorities executing justice is much planer.
26:14 While their application of mercy in public policies is merely tempering,
26:18 not predominant legislating mercy requires prudence restraint and good judgment.
26:23 It is important to note another element of justice. God brings reward and punishment to
26:28 human societies this side of eternity. Corporate entities such as civil societies have no existence
26:34 except in here and now. Thus they temporarily experience consequences affecting the whole.
26:41 Scripture teaches that individuals are ultimately responsible for their personal sin or righteousness,
26:46 but those personal moral dimensions affect the life of the body politic as well.
26:50 An aspect of this principle involves God's empowering specific or
26:54 expire empowering specific civil rulers over particular peoples. We see this in Deuteronomy 32.8,
27:01 Proverbs 8 verses 15 and 16 and acts 1726. Every ruler acts in accordance with God's sovereignty,
27:08 knowingly or not. Though the reasons for certain political actions may not always be discernible
27:12 to finite human beings as we see in Proverbs 21 1, Proverbs 28 16 and Proverbs 29 26.
27:18 Those who rule justly achieve a kind of temporal blessing for their body politic as we see in
27:23 Proverbs 21 15, Proverbs 24 29 4 and Proverbs 29 14. National character matters and has
27:31 ramifications for people. The nation characterized by righteousness pleases God as we see in Proverbs
27:36 11 verses 10 and 11, Proverbs 14 34 and Proverbs 16 12. A compassionate act when exercised by
27:43 an individual often becomes an injustice when compelled by civil government. The agents who are
27:48 supposed to be the guardians of justice and protectors of the innocent, the least of these,
27:53 the citizens or subjects of their jurisdiction. Thus, for example, writing into the US Constitution
27:58 a prohibition against cruel punishment, which is like the torture which European governments had
28:03 instituted such as the Spanish Inquisition or the English Star Chamber is an appropriate adaptation
28:09 of biblical standards of mercy. Freeing thieves and batterers from facing imprisonment,
28:14 restitution and accountability to society is inappropriate and not merciful. How might this
28:19 concept apply in US immigration policy? Take amnesty, for example, for giving foreigners for
28:25 entering the country illegally or staying when their visas expire might be seen as a merciful
28:31 or compassionate thing, at least as it's effects on people gaining legal status without having to
28:36 suffer the consequences, the law otherwise would require them. However, the government as agent
28:42 has acted in such a way that coerces innocent citizens and law-abiding immigrants to suffer
28:48 the consequences. So guys, I know that first section was a little long, but again, that was
28:52 basically looking at the biblical role of civil government. So right now, we're going to get
28:57 into the second main focus of this article, which is migration as described in scripture.
29:02 And this will be much more brief in the last, the last section. So here we go, talking about
29:05 migration in the Bible back to the article. While movement of people spans the Old Testament from
29:11 Adam to Abraham, Abraham to Moses to Ruth, no immigration policy, the terms and conditions for
29:16 admission or expulsion of aliens is spelled out. Moreover, scripture provides no uniform
29:22 immigration policy mandate intended to apply to every body politic throughout human history.
29:27 Each instance of migration in the Old Testament is different. These movements span hundreds of
29:31 years and diverse conditions. It would be foolish to assert an immigration policy for the United
29:36 States based on such passages. The best Christians can do today is to identify these principles that
29:41 aptly fit their particular society's circumstances. God himself led certain individuals or households
29:47 to move to different locations. Each move, recordings, scripture helped fulfill his purpose in biblical
29:52 history. None appears to have involved illegality. Each segment of the biblical narrative and the
29:58 people in that historical line have a unique specific purpose leading toward a common, a coming of the
30:04 Messiah and the subsequent spread of the gospel. More routine human movement in biblical times was
30:09 governed by each particular destination. City States had walls and gates and thereby controlled entry
30:15 and exit. Much migration was temporary or nomadic. For example, traders, shepherds and other
30:20 traversed open spaces. Sojourners would move from location to location in different city states and
30:25 kingdoms to ply their trades made a living on the move. Craftsmen would spend periods away from home
30:31 hiring themselves out. At all times, the local government or rulers held ultimate control over
30:36 admission, expulsion, and the terms of stay as an example, see Nehemiah 13 versus 15 through 22.
30:43 Then here it gets into a section about Moses and some of the things that he did, talking to the
30:48 Amorite king and is traveling to Edom and a few things here talking about the New Testament,
30:54 but we'll go and get back into the article here. Caesar Augustus ordered a census and we see this
30:58 in Luke chapter two versus one through three. Thus people like Mary Joseph traveled to the
31:03 hometown of their lineage. The couple later fled to Egypt for protection against King Herod as we
31:08 discuss below. The Jewish religious leaders persecuted followers of Jesus recorded in the first several
31:14 chapters of Acts. Acts chapter eight versus one through three relates that the crackdown in Jerusalem
31:19 scattered believers to the other parts of Judea and Samaria. After Saul, the Pharisee persecutor
31:24 became Paul the Apostle Christ. He traveled throughout the Mediterranean region from Jerusalem to Damascus
31:29 to Crete to Athens to Rome. His missionary journeys were integral to in spreading the faith planting
31:35 and growing churches. Acts 21 and 22 record that Paul was a Roman citizen by birth and he relied on
31:41 the rights of Roman of of being a Roman, which is especially seen in Acts 22 verses 25 through 29.
31:47 The point here is that those subject to Roman rule citizen or not Christian or otherwise
31:54 benefited in tangible ways such as lawful travel within the empire and temporal citizen
31:59 citizenship serve both gods and early Christian's interests. Affordable individuals such as Paul,
32:04 certain rights, civil rights and privileges. Despite a less than perfect or moral civil authority,
32:11 Christians of the early church rendered under Caesar the things that were Caesar's. There's no
32:15 evidence here that early Christians broke any laws when crossing borders. And now it's going
32:20 to talk a little bit about humanitarian migration. Some people mistake examples of fleeing persecution
32:25 in particular instances in the lives of biblical characters with a broad mandate of open borders
32:30 where none exists. These examples most closely match modern refugee and asylum policies. Today,
32:36 nations will accept foreigners as temporary or permanent residents depending on the circumstances
32:41 because of warfare, natural disasters, or political or religious persecution in their homelands
32:46 that makes it impossible for these people to continue residing there without exceptional danger.
32:50 Perhaps the most notable example comes in the Mary and Joseph's flight to Egypt. They fled
32:55 King Herod's murderous decree to kill all male Hubert children under the age of two. After the
32:59 Magi from the East failed to inform him who and where Jesus was. Matthew chapter two verses 16-21
33:07 recounts this event in the life of a very young Jesus. An angel warned Joseph of the danger and
33:11 specified Egypt as the family's destination. Verse 15 gives a scriptural reason for that destination,
33:17 which was the fulfillment of prophecy pertaining to the Messiah. Misguided modern misinterpretation
33:22 notwithstanding, this act did not constitute illegal immigration. Nothing indicates that the
33:27 holy family broke in Egyptian law. Their intent was finding temporary humanitarian relief. They
33:33 stayed only until they could return to Israel. Therefore instances of migration chronicled in
33:39 scripture provide no sanction for open borders. These movements of people across territories
33:44 generally deferred to the national sovereignty of the local authorities regarding whether or not
33:48 to grant entrance. The theme given the Hebrews of fairly treating aliens and sojourners were a
33:53 symbol to equal justice under the law more than an admonition to take all comers without conditions.
33:59 Even humanitarian migration fleeing persecution as an example did not trump national sovereignty
34:04 as preserving law in order even as it relates to immigration is a duty of the governing authorities
34:10 and a manifestation of general blessing under common grace of all lawful residents and jurisdiction.
34:15 Additionally, particular movement on the part of certain individuals and of the Hebrew people to
34:21 the promised lamb for elements of God's carrying out his will through the affairs of men. They
34:27 should not be generalized beyond their context of time, place and actors absent perfectly cleared
34:32 direction by God such as leading his chosen people by pillars of cloud and fire. Believers after
34:37 the age of Christ should default to immigration standards that particular states may enact within
34:43 their delegated sovereignty. That would seem to be the most to be the most in keeping with the will
34:48 of God whose character includes a quality of order. So that's the second section there guys talking
34:53 about the migration patterns within scripture. And now we're going to get into the last section
34:57 which is talking about the immigrants responsibility or the responsibility of would be immigrants. So
35:03 here we go. Advocates for illegal immigrants like to blural moral lines. They offer up illegal
35:09 aliens who purport to be Christians yet wrapping their law breaking and Christian terms stands at
35:13 odds with the clearer teachings of scripture. It becomes all the more curious when a supposed
35:18 Christian justification overlooks conduct that might be regarded as is consistent with biblical
35:23 standards. For example, purported Christian Christian illegal aliens set the poor example of a criminal
35:29 life, often abandon their young children to grow up without parents daily guidance and leave their
35:34 community back home without the influence of salt and light. Thus, what is the biblical position
35:40 relating to those who would be immigrants? Have they the right to impose themselves on a sovereign
35:45 nation and established society? First, the biblical standard for immigrants is that they obey the
35:51 law of the nation, the general standard for all discussed above. Obviously, this relates to abiding
35:57 by the nation's decision whether or not to admit an alien and on what terms and conditions.
36:02 It also includes an assimilationist ethic foreigners duly admitted into their particular society are
36:07 expected to assimilate, not impose their own customs, language, etc., and remake the receiving
36:13 society in their own image. Second, forcing oneself on an existing nation is both unjust and
36:20 unjustifiable. In other words, illegal immigration is morally wrong. Lawbreaking aliens bear the
36:26 moral responsibility for their unlawful actions. Even desperate circumstances do not justify illegal
36:32 immigration. Proverbs 6 versus 30 and 31 says people do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy
36:39 his appetite when he is hungry. But if he is caught, he will pay sevenfold and he will and he will give
36:45 all the goods of his house. The new international version translates the term as hunger and starving.
36:52 Here a man steals food to keep from starving. Everyone can understand that desperation that led
36:56 to his law breaking. But despite his sympathetic circumstances, the fact remains that he stole.
37:02 He took what belonged to somebody else. Caught for stealing, he now faces punishment. He has
37:07 to make restitution, even to the point of his own bankruptcy. Obing a nation's immigration laws,
37:13 this applies to employers as well as aliens, is a practical application of two paramount
37:18 commandments. Loving God and one's neighbor. We see this in Matthew 22 versus 37 through 40,
37:25 Mark 12 29 through 31 as well. It also follows Christ's directive to render unto Caesar matters in the
37:32 temporal and the temporal just government's jurisdiction as we see in Mark 12 17 and Luke 20 25. Such
37:39 obedience shows one's trust in God's promise provision and faith in his ability to meet one's needs.
37:44 Jesus taught such contentment and trust in God in the Sermon on the Mount as we see in Matthew 6
37:49 25 through 34 and 79 through 11 and elsewhere. Matthew 19 29 through 30 and Luke 12 22 through 34.
37:58 Almost no illegal aliens to the United States are fleeing starvation or physical danger.
38:03 A Pew study found that most illegal aliens quit a job in their home country in order to break us
38:08 immigration laws merely to take more money here. Thus illegal immigration is at its core
38:14 principally a matter of greed and envy on aliens parts. Foreign lawbreakers envy towards Americans
38:21 and material and political blessings may bring upon themselves eternal consequences. It is through
38:26 this craving love of money that have some wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with
38:31 many pangs as we see in 1 Timothy 6 verse 10. Violating immigration laws just as violating
38:38 other civil laws manifests one's failure to trust God to meet his people's needs. Illegal
38:43 aliens and their activists must ask themselves what the cost of such sin is worth to their souls.
38:48 For what does a profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Jesus asks in Mark
38:53 8 36 the IV translates the word as soul instead of life. Thus breaking immigration law flouts
39:01 God's provision for each person's well-being because civil authorities made those laws and as
39:05 seen earlier those authorities act under God's delegated authority. But let none of you suffer
39:10 as a murderer or a thief or an evil doer or as a medler as we see in 1 Peter 4 15. In context
39:17 this passage means Christians should only suffer in righteousness for the cause of Christ not as
39:21 those who disobey civil laws that should be accorded with except in the rares of instances
39:26 disobedience of duly adopted laws therefore dishonors God it displays hatred towards one's
39:32 neighbor. 1 John 5 20 says for he who does not love his brother whom he who he has seen cannot
39:38 love God whom he has not seen. In the context of members of a nation one's neighbors are those
39:43 people who share one's citizenship, patriotic allegiance and sacred duty to the body politic.
39:48 Okay so that wraps up the third section here so again they were talking about three main things
39:53 the first being the biblical role of civil government the second being migration and scripture and
39:58 the third being the responsibility of immigrants and would be immigrants and we're getting into
40:02 his conclusion here so here we go. We may fairly conclude that it displays questionable judgment
40:07 to rigidly construct an immigration policy for 21st century America based on a handful of
40:12 scripture passages taken out of context or from particular instances of migration spanning centuries
40:17 vastly different nations and kingdoms wholly different circumstances etc found in scripture
40:23 rather carefully discerning applicable principles better fits the situation.
40:27 Further obeying civil laws is the normative biblical imperative for Christians as discussed
40:33 above. National sovereignty is part of the authority God has delegated to civil authorities
40:38 whatever the immigration laws of a particular nation determining the policies of how many
40:42 immigrants to admit and the terms and conditions applying to immigrants are the pejorative of the
40:48 national body. Each society may set or change its nation's immigration laws those decisions
40:54 rest within the society and outsiders have no legitimate voice in that exercise of national
40:59 sovereignty. The reformer and statesman john calvin wrote of the sovereignty of the state
41:05 the duty of its lawful authorities is to dictate the course of justice and the sword
41:09 this extends to individual crossing sovereign borders and here's a quote from john calvin
41:14 if they civil authorities ought to be the guardians and defenders of the laws they should also
41:20 overthrow the efforts of all whose offenses corrupt the disciplines of the laws for it makes no
41:25 difference whether it be king or the lowest of the common folk who invades a foreign country in
41:30 which he has no right and harries it as an enemy all such must equally be considered as robbers
41:35 and punished accordingly though varying in manner and different jurisdictions calvin noted that
41:40 civil laws have the same general end in mind including such offenses as murder theft and false witness
41:46 but they states do not agree on the manner of punishment nor is this either necessary or
41:52 expedient there is a country which unless it deals cruelly with murderers by way of horrible
41:57 examples must immediately perish from slaughters and robberies there is a century where which
42:03 demands that the harshness of penalties be increased there is a nation inclined to a particular vice
42:08 and let it be unless it be most sharply repressed in other words different places rightfully make
42:14 craft laws that deal with their unique circumstances of time place and character this is a matter of
42:19 the sovereignty delegated by heaven the immigration laws of the united states have been adopted
42:24 through lawful legitimate democratic processes none of us may agree with every policy represented
42:30 in the law on the books and many of us might advocate certain changes in us immigration law
42:35 but this nation is blessed with a republican process for making laws there is a just and fair
42:40 way through the political process to modify statutes thus the will of the congress as manifested in
42:45 us laws represents the collective wisdom of the people's representatives and the will of
42:50 the american people as a whole as it is informed laws makers decisions throughout the political
42:55 process this is how the consent of the governed a solemn principle in american life operates
43:01 as messy and unsatisfying as that might be at times as for mass amnesty by legalizing millions of
43:07 illegal immigrants governments do not show mercy rather it obligates its citizens to bear the
43:13 injustices aliens have committed against the body politic as discussed earlier this fact stands
43:19 all the clear in light of calvin's point above okay guys so so that's the last part i'm going to
43:24 be reading there and again they may have seemed like a lot that i read just there but there were
43:29 huge sections that i skipped so again i wanted to include the entire article so you didn't think
43:33 i was taking anything out of context and i tried to make it flow as much as possible but obviously
43:38 i did take some things out for a narrative focus but so so what do we do with all this
43:43 right so i kind of walk you through a lot of arguments and i i didn't really give a lot of
43:48 uh my opinion there because i read most of the parts that i agreed with so you can just
43:52 assume that i agree with the majority of that and then i checked out most of the the things that
43:57 were said there but then we see what's happening in the news uh we have our own opinions about
44:02 illegal immigration because again this is a very specific thing happening within the confines of
44:07 illegal immigration or the immigration policies of the united states this migrant caravan but there's
44:12 so many things that come up i mean just months ago we were talking about you know kids being
44:16 separated from their parents at the border and how that was done under clinton and under busch and
44:21 under obama and then all of a sudden it was this big thing under trump and you know how is it being
44:25 presented and is it biblical and is it loving our neighbor and blah blah but i think there are
44:29 three things that we should be able to look at here uh and focus on and and these are kind of
44:35 three thoughts that i have in conclusion to the thing that we're talking about here with the migrant
44:39 caravan the first is that the migrant caravan is the product of a broken world i mean in a pre-genesis
44:48 three world we don't have a caravan like this because we wouldn't have sin we wouldn't have pain we
44:54 wouldn't have hunger we wouldn't have a need for asylum we wouldn't have corrupt governments
45:01 or crappy governments or crappy countries or crappy laws we wouldn't have any of these things
45:09 so as if we need another example of the sin that's around us or the sin nature of the people
45:13 around us this migrant caravan just hits us right square in the face we live in a broken world guys
45:19 that's not excusing anything or or telling you that you should lean left or right on this issue
45:24 it's just man here we are sitting in this broken world and jesus can't come soon enough
45:29 and the second thought is that the united states doesn't use the bible as its filter for public
45:36 policy okay i talked about that earlier but this is where i get really cross ways with a lot of
45:43 evangelicals is yes the united states and the founders founded this country the greatest country
45:52 in the history of countries right on biblical principles does that mean all of them were evangelicals
45:57 that all of them were believers in jesus christ and they acted it out in their everyday lives no
46:02 because there are people mainly on the left or mainly secularists that love to say that these
46:07 these people did not use christian principles because maybe they didn't act it out in their own
46:11 life or ben franklin had a bunch of paramores and so he's he wasn't a christian or things like that
46:16 but if we are we were so clearly founded using these principles but the united states currently
46:22 in 2018 going on 2019 we don't use the bible as our filter can you imagine if a big-time politician
46:30 so like trump or any of the house majority or minority leaders or senate majority or minority
46:36 leaders or anyone running for president from the democratic side of the ticket in 2020
46:40 do we really think we would take those people seriously if they started quoting scripture
46:44 even as a christian i think that would be really really awesome but i'm i'm when i say we i mean
46:49 the collective we american citizens again we're we're living in a post christian culture
46:55 like christiandom is out of the spotlight so if someone were to say hey this is what i think we
47:00 should do on taxation or this is what i think we should do on uh corporate borrowing this is what
47:06 i think we should do on uh you know funding elections or whatever the thing might be within law like
47:13 sentencing and you know drug laws and all the all the different examples that i'm trying to come
47:19 up with off the top of my head if someone were to quote the bible and say they believed one way or
47:23 the other the united states public would not be down with that we just don't use the bible and again
47:29 look at you as a christian we talk about this all the time we have more access to the bible now than
47:33 we have any time in recorded history and evangelical's read their bible less often than any time that
47:39 we've seen since we've been like looking at such things right so this expectation that we should
47:46 be able to take a scripture from the bible or look at a scripture that's on our coffee cup or on
47:49 our dopey shirt or something like that and all of a sudden glean massive policy from it is a
47:54 little bit short-sighted i think i think the genie's super out of the bottle on that one i'm not saying
47:59 that we shouldn't have done that from the beginning i was saying we pretty much can't do that now
48:03 and be almost impossible to go back and the last thought i have for you guys to consider is our call
48:11 as christians to love one another doesn't begin and or end with american immigration policy
48:19 you do not need a more left leaning immigration policy or a more right leaning immigration policy
48:27 to love one another to love your neighbor as yourself any of those things
48:30 and it goes back to the first point about the migrant caravan being a product of a broken world
48:37 you can completely disagree with immigration policy of the united states you can believe that
48:43 we need to build the wall you can believe that we need to put the army on the southern border border
48:48 and anyone that comes within a hundred yards of border that we shoot them whatever your thing
48:51 might be that you believe but nothing like that should stop you from caring for these people
48:57 from giving to organizations that are going down and caring for these people one thing that's
49:01 happening right now in tijuana and mexicali is they are running out of money they're running
49:05 out of resources because the mexican government wasn't prepared for this that's not exactly pretend
49:10 like the mexican government or the country as a whole has a lot of things figured out well
49:14 they know how to make resorts and soccer players and boxers and that's about it
49:19 they don't do much else particularly well in that country let's just be real
49:23 but they're running out of resources they need our resources they need resources from
49:29 Christians around the globe they need time they need volunteers and so believe what you want to
49:35 believe about u.s. immigration policy but if you ever come eyeball the eyeball with a refugee or
49:41 someone seeking asylum or you find an opportunity where you can't assist these people i would ask
49:46 you to consider that outside of your political leanings i mean seriously consider outside of
49:52 your political leanings to do those things and so excuse me guys this is a huge issue
49:58 this is something that we need to be praying about this is something that i give you a lot of
50:04 scriptural references today go and dig into those things and check those things out have
50:09 conversations with people especially people that disagree with you don't just go into some you know
50:14 echo chamber where you're talking to people that only agree with you and only watch the new
50:20 stations you watch and read the articles you read and listen to the podcast you listen to
50:23 get some different opinions on this this is an incredibly crazy issue it's not super cut and
50:30 dry in just about any way shape or form and so allow me to encourage you guys to do that as we're
50:36 going to continually run into these situations where we need to have this conversation all right
50:40 guys before we let you out of here we're going to do a quick resilience boost as you know by now we
50:44 are amends ministry on our mission is cultivating mainly resilience and specifically we do that by
50:48 providing content that for just spiritual mental and physical toughness so today we're going to work
50:52 on mental resilience and i'm going to go ahead and just give you that article to read because
50:55 guys it's going to take you while it's a fairly lengthy article and yes i know i always challenge
51:00 you guys to read you know why because you should freaking be reading all right so get used to it
51:03 you're going to hear it all the time on this podcast so again it's a biblical perspective
51:07 on immigration policy it's the long form version of what i shared with you a little bit earlier
51:12 all right guys thanks so much for listening to the podcast as always we would like for you to
51:15 subscribe on iTunes soundcloud or google play and refer your friends to listen and share this on
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51:24 it a thumbs up guys if we deserve a five star review please give us a five star review of this
51:28 podcast and make sure you leave two or three sentences that let us know why you like the content i'm
51:33 currently booking speaking engagements for the entirety of 2019 so if you want me to come speak
51:38 to your company to your team to your camp to your men's event hit me up on email info at undaunted
51:44 dot life info at undaunted dot life the website is www dot undaunted dot life and you can follow us
51:50 on instagram and twitter at undaunted life or facebook dot com backslash undaunted life check out our
51:55 free devotionals on the uversion bible app just search undaunted life under plans and as always we
52:00 want to thank the bayon august burns red for allowing us to use their entire music library
52:03 for our content the intro outro track on this podcast is their song king of sorrow which is
52:08 off their latest record entitled phantom anthem the links to all of this are in the description
52:12 i'm your host kyle tomsen remember keep cultivating manly resilience keep forging spiritual mental
52:20 and physical toughness keep seeking the lion of juda
Key quotes
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Kyle Thompson
The migrant caravan is the product of a broken world.
Kyle Thompson
You can completely disagree with immigration policy of the United States, but nothing like that should stop you from caring for these people.
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